00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.12.03
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07:38:07 <mur> hello Serg_Penguin 
07:41:29 <Robert> Hi Serg, I440r, mur & others :)
07:41:41 <mur> hello Robert 
07:56:23 <Serg_Penguin> hi
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11:25:54 <ASau> Dobryjj vecher!
11:27:06 <mur> privet
11:28:00 <ASau> Any news?
11:30:12 <mur> 10 new emails
11:30:17 <mur> ;)
11:32:55 <ASau> Hrm. May be back.
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13:19:49 <arke> hello all
13:20:03 <arke> including Herkamire Robert mur and all the others
13:20:07 <Robert> Hi there
13:20:09 <mur> terve arke
13:20:32 <arke> whats up? :)
13:20:38 <mur> playing nethack soon sleeping
13:20:47 <mur> head does not ache anymore, nor stomach is ok
13:21:09 <arke> : xor 2dup and not rot or and ;
13:21:14 <arke> nethack is good :)
13:24:10 <mur> a lot of good stuff i have
13:24:21 <mur> so much i'm burdened and found 2 x more usefull stuff
13:24:24 <mur> :/
13:27:19 <arke> :)
13:28:53 <mur> coudl read scrolls and see what happens
13:28:58 <mur> i'm also hallucinating
13:29:08 <mur> and levl 10 with dangerous monsters
13:31:20 <arke> haha
14:00:18 <mur> now i'm also blind o)
14:20:58 <arke> |)
14:20:59 <arke> hah
14:28:36 <mur> died
14:28:42 <mur> 37000 points
14:29:59 <arke> :)
14:31:17 <mur> last hiscore 13000 points
14:31:20 <mur> week ago
14:31:25 <arke> :) 
14:31:31 <mur> week before that hiscore 4000 and before that 1000
14:31:39 <mur> and started few weeks ago
14:34:41 <arke> :)
14:34:46 <arke> i sucks at NH
14:39:43 <mur> the character type is very important
14:39:46 <mur> they vary a lot
14:40:31 <arke> :)
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17:10:28 <arke> uugh
17:10:36 <arke> i like making circuits
17:10:38 <arke> however
17:10:46 <arke> the one im making right now isn't working for me.
17:11:03 <arke> i think i need to make a block or something
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18:30:49 <madgarden> How very aggregating...
18:31:50 <kc5tja> I'm sorry -- I can leave if you want... :)
18:32:08 <madgarden> Hehe. ;P 
18:32:56 <madgarden> That makes me think, it would be cool if we all conformed to a common interface and I could sap your powers whenever you joined #forth.
18:33:40 <kc5tja> :)
18:34:47 <kc5tja> Well, I just got back from work, so I'm going to be eating some food stuffs, and taking a nap.
18:34:59 * kc5tja has to work tomorrow (rarity; from 5PM to 11PM).
18:35:35 <madgarden> I would normally have to work tomorrow, but I've been unemployed for a week today. Yay!
18:36:21 <kc5tja> Heh
18:36:32 <kc5tja> Unemployment is a good thing only when you have cash in the bank.  :(
18:37:52 <madgarden> Yea, don't have much in the bank, but luckily the severence will last me for 6 months anyway.
18:38:37 <kc5tja> I've been unemployed for more than a year here, before I found In-N-out.
18:38:45 <kc5tja> I need another job in addition to INO though.
18:39:03 <madgarden> In-N-out? Is that something like rent-a-coder?
18:39:14 <kc5tja> http://www.in-n-out.com
18:39:34 <madgarden> Ahh, now I'm hungry. ;)
18:39:49 <kc5tja> :)
18:41:05 <madgarden> Was your previous job was in software/hardware engineering?
18:50:46 <arke> kc5tja!
18:50:47 <arke> :)
18:51:13 * arke thinks regulars should become ops
18:51:50 <arke> *cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough*cough
18:52:47 <kc5tja> :P
18:53:05 <kc5tja> Talk to I440r or thin about that.
18:53:11 <arke> seriously, as far as i know, the only ops are you, thin, and mark
18:53:28 <kc5tja> tbw too
18:53:35 <arke> oh yeah, and him
18:53:38 <arke> of course :)
18:53:54 <arke> and chipchuck :P
18:54:08 <arke> hey, are you gonna be available saturday at 2?
18:54:46 <kc5tja> No
18:54:48 <kc5tja> I work
18:55:08 <kc5tja> madgarden: Sort of.  Semiconductor verification.
18:55:10 <kc5tja> Ahhh
18:55:20 <kc5tja> That was a nice stretch.  I need to do that more often.
18:55:25 <kc5tja> Hell, I need to get back into the dojo.
18:55:40 <madgarden> Cool stuff.
18:55:41 * kc5tja probably dropped a few kyu in rank from inactivity.  :/
18:55:52 <arke> :(
18:55:59 <madgarden> What sort of dojo? Karate/judo/jujutsu?
18:56:03 <arke> aikido
18:56:04 <kc5tja> Aikido.
18:56:06 <arke> haha
18:56:07 <arke> beat you
18:56:20 <kc5tja> But I have proper spelling and punctuation.  :)
18:56:43 <madgarden> I'd like to get back to the judo club myself.
18:56:57 <madgarden> Wish I hadn't busted my ACL in muay thai though. :-/
18:57:35 <arke> I SHOULD BE CODING NOT IRCING OR READING BASH.ORG AAAAASDRGLKSFALIKSDLAKS
18:57:36 <arke> ;oaisbdf;kasg
18:57:37 <kc5tja> Aikido is a relatively soft art; you do a lot of stretches and all, but the falls and rolls are pretty gentle.
18:57:37 <arke> ]'iabsdgk'oas
18:57:55 <arke> gsomebody gimme a hint on abstaining from bash.org and IRC?
18:58:03 <kc5tja> arke: Pull the plug?
18:58:12 <arke> !
18:58:12 <arke> no
18:58:14 <arke> i have to code
18:58:14 <arke> code
18:58:15 <arke> code
18:58:17 <arke> code
18:58:20 <arke> code
18:58:20 <kc5tja> arke: The Ethernet plug, silly.
18:58:32 <arke> haha
18:58:40 <arke> < Riastradh> arke, destroy your ethernet cables.
18:59:44 <kc5tja> Rumor has it that our store manager was asked by our district manager to stand down as store manager today.
19:00:51 <arke> :)
19:06:10 <kc5tja> I mean, I know he can be an asshole sometimes (like on Friday, when he screamed at me something like 4 times for stuff that was hardly in my control), but still, that's pretty damn serious.  :)
19:06:19 <kc5tja> He's lucky he's not being fired outright.
19:06:49 <kc5tja> Assuming the rumors are true.
19:06:54 <arke> yeah.,
19:07:10 <kc5tja> I'm not sure why this is happening though.
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19:07:39 <kc5tja> Personally, I think it has a lot to do with his apparent bipolar disorder.
19:07:41 --- quit: chandler (Connection timed out)
19:07:45 <kc5tja> Some days, he'll be happy and cheery.
19:07:53 <kc5tja> Other days, Balrogs run away from him.
19:08:10 <arke> balrogs lol
19:08:11 <arke> :)
19:08:15 <arke> anyway, im gone now
19:08:19 <arke> coding, hopefully
19:18:31 <kc5tja> Heh
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19:26:30 <kc5tja> Hmm....
19:27:00 <kc5tja> Fettucini Alfredo is just what the doctor ordered after a nice, 8 mile trek on a bike.
19:34:02 <kc5tja> Okies, I'm off to hack on qm myself.
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21:34:57 <unfalot> aha
21:35:01 <unfalot> there is an onlyme here :)
21:36:34 * unfalot prods i440r
22:03:27 <I440r> lol
22:03:39 <I440r> <--
22:05:52 <unfalot> woot
22:05:53 <unfalot> om!
22:05:56 <I440r> :)
22:06:01 <I440r> whussup?
22:06:08 <unfalot> i got a nasty lil questie for ya
22:06:14 <I440r> nasty ?
22:06:19 <unfalot> well
22:06:24 <unfalot> something that aint makin no sense to me :(
22:06:31 <I440r> which is ?
22:06:48 <unfalot> it's not forth related -- so -- here... or say, #asm ?
22:07:03 <I440r> this channel is never moderated
22:07:09 <unfalot> heh
22:07:12 <I440r> but it is logged :)
22:07:26 <unfalot> which is how i found out where you hid these days :)
22:07:38 <I440r> lol
22:07:49 <I440r> i started this channel a few years ago for my forth compiler
22:07:56 <I440r> spent over a year in here ALONE lol
22:07:57 <unfalot> well, something in one of your conversations had a word i was googling for :)
22:08:02 <unfalot> heh
22:08:07 <unfalot> isforth seems to have come along nicely :)
22:08:09 <I440r> which word ?
22:08:20 <unfalot> 'fsave' :)
22:08:22 <I440r> it is doing so but ive not done much work on it in a while
22:08:28 <I440r> aha
22:08:37 <I440r> thats an important word in isforth :)
22:08:59 <I440r> im assuming you were googling for some instruction of that name ?
22:08:59 <unfalot> hm, well, i was more or less looking for the fpu instruction :)
22:09:09 <unfalot> aye
22:09:09 <I440r> yea  thunked so
22:10:01 <I440r> well im no expert with fpu instructions, i see little point in them
22:10:05 <I440r> personally
22:10:38 <unfalot> jist of the problem: i got a preemptive multitasking kernel sitting on top of dos.  i only switch away from CS's that I know about (so as to not steal time away from resident device drivers, etc) -- the whole thing works quite well until i've started attempting to save the fpu state as well... now i have nothing but headaches :(
22:11:00 <I440r> aha
22:11:02 <unfalot> hm, fixed point can't solve everything :)
22:11:06 <I440r> well. are you using MMX instructions ?
22:11:38 <I440r> im assuming you are saving fpu states on entry into an interrupt ?
22:11:46 <I440r> you know even LINUX doesnt do that ?
22:11:54 <I440r> or didnt used to
22:11:54 <unfalot> aye, the idea was to keep any existing mmx or fpu functions sane.  at the moment, no, i'm not using any fpu/mmx ... just attempting to save/restore the state.
22:11:57 <I440r> it might now
22:12:27 <I440r> ok
22:13:28 <I440r> hrm. what are the symptoms ?
22:13:38 <unfalot> i'm trying to recall them heh.
22:14:08 <I440r> where are you saving the states to - the stack ?
22:14:14 <unfalot> not to mention that i should bring up that this is entirely interrupt based, no TSS fiddling or anything :)
22:14:33 <I440r> ok :)
22:14:43 <I440r> stack or dedicated fpu save area for each process ?
22:14:49 <unfalot> i save the states to some global memory (currently in C global space)
22:15:10 <I440r> on a per process/task basis?
22:15:11 <I440r> ok
22:15:32 <unfalot> each task gets it's own stack, fpu area (108 bytes), general purpose registers, etc etc etc
22:15:52 <I440r> hok
22:15:57 <I440r> well. do this
22:15:57 <unfalot> entire thing works wonderfully without the fnsave/frstor
22:16:07 <I440r> make a task that sets all fpu registers in a knnown state
22:16:17 <I440r> save that tasks state
22:16:25 <I440r> examine the saved data to see if the save is working
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22:19:44 <unfalot> here's the fucked up part: i'm not doing FPU stuff.... and it'll like.... mangle registers that are restored from the ISR stack (... ISR -> pushad, some other push's, save to task stuff, c-kernel-isr(), restore stack stuff to the isr stack space that previous pushad etc used, adjust dpmi (....) ISR stack frame with new values, pop everything, iret)
22:19:57 <unfalot> so... like...
22:21:12 <unfalot> there's no fpu usage, and i have say, 'ecx is the base of some array', mov [ecx + 123], 456 ;  .... without the fnsave/frstor ecx stays sane.  with it, ecx becomes something largely impossible causing memory protection fault
22:21:39 <I440r> hmmm
22:21:57 <I440r> how big is the fpu save code
22:22:11 <unfalot> mmm good question.
22:23:20 <unfalot> should only be a smsw ax ; mov [global_space], ax ; cli ; clts ; fnsave segment_override:[other_global_space] ; sti ....
22:24:22 <I440r> put the cli first and the sti last ?
22:24:27 <I440r> thats a shot in the dark tho
22:24:59 <unfalot> ... so there's no magic thing i'm missing ? :( .... 
22:25:03 <unfalot> heheh
22:25:07 <I440r> maybe
22:25:55 <I440r> err paste the exact function in a query, thats not all of it
22:26:11 <unfalot> not an option currently :(
22:26:16 <I440r> ok
22:26:18 <unfalot> code is at work heh
22:26:38 <I440r> as in i didnt sign a non disclosure ??? "_
22:26:45 <I440r> oh you dont have it on you heh
22:26:51 <unfalot> nah, there's no NDA on this stuff yet
22:26:55 <unfalot> it's not apart of game code yet :)
22:27:20 <I440r> heh
22:27:23 <I440r> hrm
22:27:33 <unfalot> besides, generic 8086 multitasking wouldn't be covered heh
22:27:43 <I440r> :)
22:27:51 <I440r> i would try mess with the order in which you do things
22:28:13 <I440r> cept
22:28:20 <I440r> i cant see wher you chould move anything
22:28:30 <I440r> except the disable interrupts
22:28:50 <unfalot> i can possibly see the interrupts thing causing an issue
22:29:15 <unfalot> hm, are processor exceptions covered in cli/sti ?
22:29:28 <I440r> thats a good question
22:29:43 <unfalot> (i have dick for a debugger, so i gotta use my own exception handlers and stuff to do post mordems :( )
22:30:04 <I440r> erm this isnt pmode code
22:30:19 <unfalot> hm
22:30:21 <I440r> try www.eji.com and d86
22:30:58 <unfalot> it's existing inside pmode stuff
22:31:06 <I440r> oh
22:31:14 <I440r> shoot lol
22:31:16 <I440r> hrm
22:31:38 <I440r> how come no debugger ?
22:31:47 <unfalot> you've met my boss :)
22:31:52 <I440r> lol
22:31:54 <I440r> true
22:32:16 <unfalot> i'd love to be able to single step my way through the isr and stuff, but alas, no can do
22:32:36 <I440r> you could always warez softice (i didnt say that!)
22:32:37 <I440r> lol
22:32:39 <unfalot> i think my only chance would be to install bochs :(
22:32:43 <kc5tja> Bedtime.
22:32:54 <unfalot> hm heh
22:32:54 <I440r> ouch
22:33:01 <unfalot> 'nite kc
22:33:37 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
22:34:03 <unfalot> maybe the dream of having a multitasking kernel sitting underneath dpmi is a lost cause :(
22:34:13 <unfalot> i'll see if i can get more info for ya tomorrow.
22:34:18 <I440r> ok
22:34:28 <I440r> btw can you get on here during work hours ?
22:34:29 <I440r> i do :)
22:34:54 <unfalot> hm
22:35:10 <unfalot> ./whois wUoNrFk
22:35:37 <I440r> aha :)
22:35:43 <I440r> im guessing thats you at work :)
22:35:45 <unfalot> or
22:35:52 <unfalot> ./whois unfies
22:35:53 <unfalot> :)
22:35:53 <I440r> you idle on this network ?
22:36:00 <unfalot> yea, i've idled here for a few years 
22:36:03 <I440r> wow unfy is here too lol
22:36:06 <unfalot> (sdl fan)
22:36:10 <I440r> lol i never new :P)
22:36:25 <unfalot> heheh
22:36:39 --- nick: unfalot -> unfy
22:36:42 <I440r> Knew 
22:37:04 <I440r> ill hafta make a mental note of that fact :)
22:37:10 <I440r> im rarely on undernet these days
22:37:24 <unfy> i still sit in hozers day in/day out :)
22:38:07 <I440r> heh i know :)
22:39:47 <unfy> ...... the fpu thing has bugged me... cause... after i get it done, i can go about writing all of the 'fun' parts of the kernel.
22:39:50 <I440r> how many lines of code in this multi tasking os ?
22:40:03 <unfy> (side project i'm toying with at work when i get annoyed at doing boring shit like printer drivers)
22:40:20 <unfy> hm, not really a full on os... just an application-level kernel :)
22:40:30 <I440r> k
22:40:54 <I440r> luv is on here :)
22:40:57 <unfy> right now, it might stand at about 2 pages (1600x1200) assembly, and 3-5 pages of C.
22:41:01 <I440r> i been helping here set up a gentoo box
22:41:23 <unfy> hehehe... she's mentioned her gentoo box a couple times....
22:41:28 <I440r> sounds very minimal - a sign of a managable project
22:41:37 <unfy> hm
22:41:46 <I440r> let me guess - swearing at the 2 week install hhe
22:42:00 <unfy> mimimal for now -- "k_task_new(void (*)(void)) { " ... :)
22:42:13 <unfy> she's... been... a bit annoyed/intriqued about the entire process heh
22:42:27 <I440r> :)
22:42:35 <unfy> later the kernel stuff will grow a lil bit... but nothing terribly complex.
22:42:45 <I440r> right
22:43:29 <unfy> simple priority system, a 'critical section' flag to not allow switching away, etc
22:46:40 <I440r> sounds good :)
22:46:44 <I440r> if you can get it working :)
22:47:01 * unfy murmur's bout the frickin fpu
22:47:35 <I440r> ya
22:47:50 * I440r normally steers clear of fpu :)
22:48:11 <unfy> so how do you handle floats in isforth ? software interpertation ?
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22:48:49 <I440r> i have the advantage that my operating systems BIOS is multi tasking :)
22:48:49 <I440r> heh
22:49:42 <unfy> erm, was referring to if isforth deals with fractional numbers, etc :)
22:50:00 <I440r> dont handle floats yet
22:50:05 <I440r> wont till i have written the assembler
22:50:11 <I440r> which will support floating point
22:50:23 <I440r> I dont use it - but i wont restrict OTGHERS from doing so
22:50:37 <I440r> ive been procrastingating writing the assembler for ages
22:51:51 <unfy> heh
22:52:38 <unfy> you can make calls from isforth to an existing library (.so ?) right ?
22:53:06 <I440r> no. but its on the todo list
22:53:30 <I440r> btw isforth now runs in fbsd with linux emulation. and it isnt because of a change I made - i didnt make any lol
22:53:47 <I440r> linking into an existing lib would open up alot of doors
22:53:51 <I440r> but its non trivial
22:56:27 <unfy> i've seen some of the binutils source.  not impressive.. other than it actually manages to build.
22:56:40 <I440r> heh
22:56:42 <unfy> (including ld stuff etc)
22:56:52 <I440r> i hate digging thru c sources
22:57:01 <I440r> i find it easier to reverse engineer the binaries
22:57:14 <unfy> you've always been a strange one :)
22:57:30 <I440r> c sources are write only
22:57:32 <I440r> bleh
23:05:24 <I440r> well neway methunks its bed time :/
23:06:37 <mur> morning
23:06:40 <mur> woudl be me too
23:06:45 * mur arrives at school
23:06:51 <mur> there is no one else but me and teacher, yay
23:07:01 <mur> wonder where others are
23:07:13 <unfy> hm
23:07:18 <unfy> yea, i should prolly go to
23:07:45 <unfy> been sick, gotta get 20-40 hours in at work over the next two days :(
23:08:08 <unfy> thanks again onlyme :)
23:13:41 <I440r> ouch
23:16:46 <mur> brb
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.12.03