00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.30
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07:13:20 <rO|> privet
07:14:28 <Serg_Penguin> hi
07:15:28 <rO|> :-) how's your forthin' today?
07:16:45 <Serg_Penguin> lame ;))
07:16:55 <Serg_Penguin> writing a noter parallel in ASM and Forth
07:17:40 <rO|> noter?
07:18:08 <Serg_Penguin> a kind of text demo or intro w/ editor, so u can change the note and save under different name
07:21:54 <Serg_Penguin> also i wanna write a super-abstract RPG game, in Forth
07:22:15 <Serg_Penguin> and think of a fractal music proggie, working as frontend to CSOUND
07:22:53 <rO|> #forth stats. current: 12, Avg: 13, Max: 23
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07:41:15 <Serg_Penguin> dhamn !
07:41:42 <Serg_Penguin> licence server of accounting proggie died in power hit ;((
07:41:59 <Serg_Penguin> database OK but no one can login ;(((((
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08:06:49 <ianP> zut
08:06:53 <ianP> :/~
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08:45:42 <ianP> what is NOT ?
08:48:37 <mmanning> that depends on what forth you are using
08:48:47 <mmanning> for instance not and 0= were identical in fig forth
08:49:01 <mmanning> in the 83 standard they corrected this fsckup and made NOT a logical inversion
08:49:07 <mmanning> i.e. a 2's complement
08:49:29 <mmanning> in ans forth they wimped out of actually deciding once and for all how NOT should work
08:49:53 <mmanning> so they invented a completely BULLSHIT gay limp wristed BOGUS word called "invert" which just doesnt scan right
08:50:09 <mmanning>  .... 0= not if blah then .... scans
08:50:21 <mmanning> ... 0= invert if blah then ... is a crock of shit
08:50:40 <mmanning> dont use invert. in fact dont use ans forth
08:50:52 <mmanning> use NOT - it scans better in english
08:54:08 <ianP> hah
08:54:19 <ianP> well
08:54:25 <ianP> this code I want to try integrating uses NOT
08:54:30 <ianP> and its not in  gforth
08:54:56 <ianP> http://www.tinyboot.com/quiksort.txt
08:54:58 <ianP> in PARTITION
08:55:44 <ianP> so is that not <= 
08:55:49 <ianP> > NOT ?
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09:07:32 * MysticOne makes kc5tja make him lunch
09:09:57 * kc5tja makes MysticOne, who's trying to make me make him lunch, make his own lunch instead.  I am off today, thank you very much.  >:D
09:10:35 * kc5tja has a hankering for playing the old Atari 2600 game "Tank."  I'm trying to find a Linux clone of it, and failing that, trying to locate a .BIN file for an Atari 2600 emulator for Linux.
09:10:54 <MysticOne> noooo!  I need a burger!
09:11:17 <ianP> yeah, m  etoo
09:11:20 <ianP> damnit
09:12:53 <kc5tja> Well, I don't work on Tuesdays or Thursdays.  :)
09:18:05 <kc5tja> Though, later today, I am thinking of riding my bike in to work, so I can order some food, then ride back.
09:18:16 <kc5tja> Primarily, the purpose of this mission is to see how long it takes to get to work by bike.
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09:48:36 <mmanning> : not invert ;
09:48:41 <mmanning> now you have NOT
09:48:55 <mmanning> the 83 standard defined NOT correctly - ans forth wimped out
09:54:08 <kc5tja> They deliberately left NOT out because there are two interpretations of NOT; INVERT and 0=.
10:11:40 <ianP> it didnt seem like in that code it was doing an invert 
10:11:46 <ianP> but i didnt really read it closely
10:25:04 <kc5tja> 0= is a logical NOT, while INVERT is a bit-wise NOT.
10:40:54 <ianP> yah
10:41:09 <mur> hmmm
10:55:32 <mmanning> yes. they wimped out on making a decision once and for all. the 83 standard FIXED not.  the ans standard broke it again
10:55:38 <mmanning> i KNOW the "reason" why
10:55:50 <mmanning> no. 0= is a test for zer0
10:55:54 <mmanning> it is nothing else
10:57:38 <ianP> as an outsider, i would think not should mean 0= and not INVERT
10:57:54 <ianP> im not sure which you are arguing
10:58:00 <ianP> s/not/NOT
11:13:50 <kc5tja> The logical operation for inverting bits is also called NOT in the industry.
11:14:29 <kc5tja> There are arguments for both.  Though, I agree, when I think of NOT in the context of software, I tend to think more in terms of the logical, rather than the bitwise.
11:23:14 <MysticOne> this does NOT make sense to me, but I'm a newbie, so that's why
11:23:15 <MysticOne> :)
11:36:54 <ianP> hmm yeah
11:41:23 <kc5tja> 0= is a word that looks at the top of stack, and returns TRUE (-1) if it's zero, or FALSE (0) if it's not.
11:41:28 <kc5tja> Now, look at what it's doing.
11:41:50 <kc5tja> If it's 0, the result is -1 (the opposite).  If it's non-zero (of which, -1 is certainly non-zero), then it returns 0.
11:41:58 <kc5tja> That's the same as flipping TRUE to FALSE, and FALSE to TRUE.
11:45:48 <MysticOne> weird
11:47:05 <MysticOne> kc5tja: having more fun deploying wireless stuff ... yay
11:47:06 <MysticOne> :)
11:47:09 <MysticOne> but still not at my house!
11:47:11 * MysticOne grumbleificates
12:02:59 <kc5tja> So it's Hehe
12:03:04 <kc5tja> whoa.
12:03:07 * kc5tja laughs
12:03:10 <kc5tja> I can't believe I typed that.  :)
12:03:27 * kc5tja is still playing around with his Atari 2600 emulator.  :)
12:04:05 <MysticOne> so it's what? :)
12:09:49 <kc5tja> Heheh
12:09:52 <kc5tja> Don't you know?  :)
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14:17:52 <mmanning> bleh
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16:29:24 <kc5tja> Back
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16:53:53 * melinda pokes kc5tja in the nose
16:54:32 * kc5tja snorts the poker.
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17:08:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:09:19 <kc5tja> Heyas
17:09:50 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja...how's life?
17:11:55 <kc5tja> OK.
17:12:05 * kc5tja is playing around with an Atari 2600 emulator right now.
17:12:26 <TheBlueWizard> :)
17:12:58 <TheBlueWizard> never have played with Atari 'puter (other than a look-see in the store a long time ago)
17:23:58 <kc5tja> Well, it's not quite a computer.  It's a game console.
17:24:18 <kc5tja> But the chipset for the 2600 did inspire the Atari 800 adn 400 series chipsets.
17:24:35 <kc5tja> It's amazing to think that so much has been done with the Atari 2600, considering the video hardware is *so* very simple.
17:24:50 <kc5tja> The video has no DMA capabilities at all -- the CPU feeds the video shift registers everything.
17:25:03 <MysticOne> http://www.space.com/spacecams/ <-- go watch that!  Well, click the animated sun cam
17:25:31 <MysticOne> err, hold on
17:25:54 <kc5tja> Criminey, I don't think this site has enough COOKIES on it.
17:25:59 <MysticOne> http://www.space.com/spacewatch/sun_cam_animated.html
17:26:04 <MysticOne> mmmmm, cookies
17:26:20 <MysticOne> it'll take a little bit to load
17:26:58 <kc5tja> I guess so.
17:27:16 * TheBlueWizard hmms re: Atari 2600's architecture...."it sounds rather primitive"
17:27:53 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: It came out in '76.  Of course it was primitive.  But it was overwhelmingly more advanced than other chipsets at the same time.  If it weren't for the Atari 2600, we would not have the Amiga.
17:28:39 <MysticOne> kc5tja: did it load yet?
17:29:44 <kc5tja> Yes
17:30:01 <MysticOne> it's cool :)
17:30:01 <kc5tja> I've seen images like this before.  It's weird to think that that stuff is coming off our sun, you know?  :D
17:30:08 * MysticOne nods
17:30:15 * MysticOne notes CMEs are really sun farts
17:30:27 <MysticOne> I think it ingested a mexican planet or something
17:30:30 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: I see
17:30:32 * kc5tja saw two sun spots during the fires this week.  The smoke cover enabled me to see two sun spots without the aid of a telescope.  Those were HHUUGGEE sunspots.
17:30:45 <MysticOne> hehe
17:30:54 <MysticOne> you know what's really funny?
17:31:09 <MysticOne> were you aware that this week Congress has been talking about canceling all funding on Space Weather prediction?
17:31:14 <MysticOne> saying it wasn't beneficial?
17:31:18 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Knowing a bit more about the Atari 2600's TIA chip (which stands for Television Interface Adapter) enables me to appreciate some of the more complex games for the Atari, for sure.
17:31:54 <kc5tja> Well, when our satellite communications go out, then maybe they'll think twice.
17:32:08 <kc5tja> I'm getting to the point where I just don't care about it anymore.
17:32:21 <kc5tja> It's clear that, as a non-republican, I'm utterly powerless.
17:32:22 <MysticOne> well the thing is, if they can't predict it, then poof ... no more satellites because they'll all be damaged
17:32:26 <MysticOne> true
17:32:26 <kc5tja> 100%, totally, utterly powerless.
17:32:37 <kc5tja> Even if I WERE a republican, nobody would ever fucking listen to me.
17:32:48 <MysticOne> yeah, because you're not an idiot
17:32:55 <MysticOne> only idiots are listened to when it comes to government
17:32:55 <MysticOne> :)
17:33:02 <kc5tja> So you know what?
17:33:04 <kc5tja> Fuck them.
17:33:08 <MysticOne> I don't want to
17:33:11 <MysticOne> they might give me cooties
17:33:14 * TheBlueWizard got fucked...thanks
17:33:25 <MysticOne> because I doubt they believe in contraception
17:33:26 * TheBlueWizard is being sarcastic
17:33:28 <MysticOne> so they probably have diseases 
17:34:07 <kc5tja> I don't want to talk about it anymore.
17:34:14 <kc5tja> I'm already so pissed off it's not funny right now.
17:34:16 * TheBlueWizard works for gov't, in case you don't know
17:34:25 * MysticOne comforts TheBlueWizard 
17:34:26 <MysticOne> anyway ...
17:34:30 <kc5tja> The government fucked me over big-time.
17:34:31 <MysticOne> kc5tja: my point was to show that the sun was interesting :)
17:34:38 <kc5tja> I have a special place in my heart for the government.
17:34:39 <TheBlueWizard> thanks, MysticOne
17:34:57 <TheBlueWizard> oh?
17:35:01 <MysticOne> what I hate is that I watch so much Stargate, that something happens, and I'm like "Oh, well they could just... no, wait, that was on TV"
17:35:08 <MysticOne> because Stargate is nice and believable :)
17:35:44 <TheBlueWizard> lol...very true....Stargate SG-1 is very good!
17:35:46 <MysticOne> if there are aliens ... I bet they use forth
17:43:56 <kc5tja> Yep.
17:44:11 <kc5tja> They'd be advanced enough to know, "One should not fight against the computer, but rather, embrace it."
17:44:28 <kc5tja> That's one thing I sorely dislike about modern programming languages, is that they all try to abstract the machine away.
17:44:42 <kc5tja> Let's turn this machine into an abstract, mathematical model of some kind.
17:59:38 <MysticOne> we got our new DDR mat today ... man, it's so nice :)
18:01:57 <kc5tja> Hehe
18:02:16 <MysticOne> the old one was like the old Nintendo power pad ...
18:02:20 <MysticOne> just vinyl with wires in it
18:02:27 <MysticOne> this one has about 1 inch thick hard foam in it
18:02:34 <MysticOne> and doesn't slide around :)
18:11:08 * kc5tja nods
18:13:16 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
18:13:36 <MysticOne> man ...
18:13:46 <MysticOne> anyone know where I can find War of the Worlds online?  and mp3 or ogg of the original broadcast?
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18:13:59 <MysticOne> should be public domain now ... they talked about it on /., and I want to hear it because I've never heard it in its entirey :)
18:14:02 <MysticOne> err, entirety
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18:37:20 * melinda smacks MysticOne
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19:11:03 * MysticOne is smacked
19:11:06 <MysticOne> (delayed reaction)
19:11:52 <kc5tja> ???
19:11:57 <kc5tja> Why did you smack yourself?  :)
19:12:06 <MysticOne> melinda smacked me
19:12:09 <kc5tja> Ahh
19:12:14 <kc5tja> Oh yeah, I forgot about that.  :)
19:12:30 * kc5tja is disappointed.
19:12:41 <kc5tja> The site I'm downloading ROMs from has every game in the world . . . except QiX.  :)
19:12:50 <MysticOne> hehehe
19:13:41 <MysticOne> kc5tja: I have OS X Panther installed now
19:13:43 <MysticOne> it's a bit faster :)
19:13:54 * MysticOne needs to delve into OpenFirmware
19:14:26 <Herkamire> MysticOne: you making a PPC forth OS?
19:14:53 <MysticOne> Herkamire: nope, I can add and subtract in forth though!  and make new words!
19:14:56 <MysticOne> that, um... add and subtract!
19:15:01 <MysticOne> that's about my extent so far
19:15:45 <Herkamire> MysticOne: why are you wanting to delve into OF?
19:16:07 <MysticOne> Herkamire: because, if I'm not mistaken, it's forth :)
19:16:13 <MysticOne> and I need to play with it anyway at some point
19:16:51 <Herkamire> why do you need to play with it anyway?
19:17:14 <MysticOne> because I think if you want to dual boot and do other kinda special things, you need to tinker with the OF stuff a little bit on Macs
19:17:49 <Herkamire> oh.
19:17:52 <Herkamire> not really.
19:18:04 <MysticOne> oh well, it wouldn't hurt to become familiar with it anyway :)
19:18:13 <MysticOne> maybe I can see what a real BIOS is like 
19:18:15 <Herkamire> just follow a tutorial. it says put your file [here] and type this ["..."]
19:18:16 * MysticOne grumbles about PC BIOS
19:18:27 <Herkamire> OF is really cool
19:18:57 <Herkamire> macs can boot off an Ipod :)
19:21:57 <kc5tja> Long live Forth!!  :-)
19:24:10 <Herkamire> here! here!
19:24:24 <Herkamire> yay! I found bitchX docs finally
19:24:55 <Herkamire> one of these days I'm going to look on my HD _before_ I look on the internet
19:27:05 <kc5tja> heheh :D
19:28:23 <Herkamire> freshmeat doesn't list a homepage for bitchx
19:28:27 <kc5tja> I just wish I had more time to work on my Forth.
19:28:47 <Herkamire> the man page doesn't even have a See Other section
19:28:55 <kc5tja> I got my target compiler generating x86, but I haven't yet been able to test generated code with it, since I haven't yet generated an ELF header with it yet.
19:29:22 <Herkamire> my gentoo bitchx package gives www.bitchx.com (but I just get a 404 there)
19:29:48 <Herkamire> and finally (lo and behold) I have /usr/share/doc/bitchx-1.0.19-r6/ right here on my HD
19:30:46 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I have a simple PPC ELF header for just one section
19:30:54 <Herkamire> (ppc asm with comments explaining)
19:30:59 <Herkamire> want it?
19:31:49 <Herkamire> I think you'd only have to change two entries to make it a propper x86 elf (endian, and architecture)
19:32:21 <Herkamire> you could easily get those values with a hex editor on an existing program
19:32:36 <kc5tja> No thanks; there are tons of X86-ELF header examples on the 'net.  I just haven't written the code to test anything just yet.
19:32:42 <kc5tja> I've been very busy with school and with work.
19:33:31 <Herkamire> oh, ok.
19:34:19 <Herkamire> I had a hard time finding mine. but I suppose a lot more people are doing this sort of thing on x86.
19:35:09 <kc5tja> There's a whole website dedicated to Linux assembly language, which seems to concentrate on the x86 platform.  
19:36:09 <Herkamire> I plan to document how to write an OS for PPC
19:38:09 * kc5tja still needs to finish documentation on his FS/Forth for the 6502 SBC.  :)
19:38:19 <kc5tja> I just barely started, and it's already starting to "slip."
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19:50:00 * MysticOne sighs
19:50:04 <MysticOne> stupid fsckin' closed source drivers
19:50:09 <MysticOne> I hate closed source
19:50:17 <MysticOne> at least when it relates to making hardware work
19:57:25 <Herkamire> what kills me is companies charging hundreds of dollars for the manual for the computer [parts] they sell
19:57:55 <Herkamire> I payed $2600 for this thing, and I want to know how it works
20:00:09 <yasam> they offered you a deal you took it wheres your complaint?
20:01:33 <Herkamire> yasam my complaint is that the prices on the manuals are so high that I can't afford them. it's like their classified almost
20:02:34 <Herkamire> I'm suprised that companies don't publish them as PDFs or something on their websites.
20:02:35 <Herkamire> some do
20:03:40 <yasam> if you dont live in a little country you could probably get them secondhand
20:04:31 * yasam was surprised at how many almost new technical manuals were available in a secondhand bookshop the other day
20:04:46 <MysticOne> actually ...
20:04:56 <MysticOne> what I hate is when a company refuses to directly support a specific platform
20:04:59 <MysticOne> so they give out drivers for Windows
20:05:01 <MysticOne> for free
20:05:16 <MysticOne> then only give out specs for the card, under NDA, for someone else to make drivers for say... Linux
20:05:31 <MysticOne> so that when you go to get a driver for it, they charge you $20k for a license to use a binary version (no source)
20:05:39 <MysticOne> and you have no other choice :(
20:05:47 <yasam> Herkamire: your lucky, the docs you want are even available
20:06:49 <yasam> its reverse engineering for me :(
20:07:16 <MysticOne> I think the worst part is when the company doesn't want to support it, won't give you the manual, and sues you under the DMCA for reverse engineering it
20:07:20 <MysticOne> :)
20:07:30 <yasam> hehe
20:07:48 <MysticOne> scary
20:08:11 <Herkamire> you would think that sort of despicable behaviour would be bad for their sales.
20:08:15 <Herkamire> why do they do that?
20:08:34 * Herkamire is away getting a snack
20:08:39 <MysticOne> I dunno ... it's a mystery to me
20:16:09 <yasam> we need consumer unions, I might start the next revolution: cunsumer unionism ;)
20:22:34 <MysticOne> hehehe
20:22:39 <MysticOne> well, we already have it
20:22:45 <MysticOne> more or less
20:22:49 <MysticOne> if we get enough disgruntled people :)
20:22:52 * MysticOne is boycotting nvidia
20:24:04 <yasam> but we dont have union heads breaking peoples legs if they want to leave the union :)
20:24:49 <MysticOne> yeah, I'm not getting into that :)
20:24:53 <MysticOne> same reason I'll never join a labor union :)
20:25:29 <MysticOne> I am a member of a credit union, but they're nice :)
20:27:14 <yasam> hmm, I wont put that part in the manifesto
20:31:18 <MysticOne> hehehe
20:44:17 <kc5tja> I completely agree.  Consumer unions would be a nice idea.  But how, exactly, would be exercise the power of the union?
20:49:50 <kc5tja> s/be/we/
20:50:58 <kc5tja> Herkamire: They do it because Linux is such a small sales opportunity for them that they can get away with it effectively for free.  The impact on their sales is so small as to be negligable.
20:51:45 <Herkamire> kc5tja I see that it's small, but what's the benifit?
20:52:04 <kc5tja> "OOG!  LOOK AT US!  WE BIG COMPANY!  OO OO!"
20:52:25 <Herkamire> I'm impressed ;)
20:52:27 <kc5tja> The benefit is the same as what USA is getting now by trampling on Iraq: pure publicity.
20:53:02 <Herkamire> so the NDA is to add hype and mystery?
20:53:08 <kc5tja> Yes.
20:53:11 <Herkamire> oh.
20:53:47 <kc5tja> It's also to protect the "How we do things" aspect of it, but they'd all agree on a common register set, then that is easier to protect anyway.
20:54:13 * kc5tja thinks that an open source video card specification and implementation is well in order.
20:54:33 <Herkamire> that explains the companies that won't release the manuals at all, but there are companies that charge $600 for the manual
20:56:22 <yasam> hmm just reading about Xcode, its got fancy predictive compilation, on demand runtime linking, distributed building etc. You would thing that would just look at the root of the problem :)
20:56:42 <kc5tja> How much money do you think I'd make if I were to release the news that I am attempting to make/manufacture an open source video card system for Linux?
20:58:28 <yasam> how?
20:59:38 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I'd guess you'd loose millions :)
21:00:16 <kc5tja> Well, open source hardware is quite different from open source software.
21:00:34 <kc5tja> The specifications and schematics would be open, but the hardware cannot be copied with your local, friendly "cp" command.
21:00:40 <kc5tja> People still have to pay for the hardware.
21:01:35 <yasam> you would make a few bucks until it became succesful
21:03:05 <Herkamire> they are a little tricky to find, but Motorola his specs for their processors (at least the ones we've looked for) free on their website
21:03:24 <Herkamire> they are certainly sucsessful
21:05:11 <yasam> but the design is intellectual property, no? and they are not so tricky to find
21:08:27 <yasam> nevermind
21:15:48 <kc5tja> Yeah.
21:15:50 <kc5tja> That's the point.
21:16:12 <kc5tja> The video card I'd create will clearly not be a super-VGA card with all the gee-whiz-bang features that other cards have.
21:16:14 <kc5tja> They're not needed.
21:16:27 <kc5tja> Unless you're doing super hyper-dope 3D graphics and phong-shaded window borders.
21:21:43 <Herkamire> is it feasable yet to do real-time raytracing in hardware?
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21:44:13 <kc5tja> Gahh, he leaves before I have a chance to answer.
21:44:33 <kc5tja> In case he reads the channel logs, though, "Yes."
21:44:58 <kc5tja> At least, as far as I know.
21:46:20 <kc5tja> Well, I'm off to bed.  Today was a waste.  Yet again.
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22:57:21 <Serg_Penguin> hey !
22:57:32 <Serg_Penguin> anyone have Forth for ZX spectrum ?
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