00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.24 00:06:09 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-22-249-240.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 03:52:54 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 03:54:11 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth 05:40:40 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 06:28:46 --- quit: mmanning (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:35:30 --- join: mmanning (~mmanning@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 07:21:35 hi 09:15:02 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D317.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:38:38 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 09:39:48 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D317.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:40:13 --- quit: oo__ (Killed by gerrold.freenode.net ()) 09:40:14 --- quit: mmanning (Killed by gerrold.freenode.net ()) 09:40:14 --- quit: I440r (Killed by gerrold.freenode.net ()) 09:40:14 --- quit: XeF4 (Killed by gerrold.freenode.net ()) 09:40:14 --- quit: onetom (Killed by gerrold.freenode.net ()) 09:40:21 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 09:40:25 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:41:25 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 09:41:25 --- join: mmanning (~mmanning@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 09:41:25 --- join: oo__ (o@62.142.120.91) joined #forth 09:51:42 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 10:04:04 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 10:04:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 10:05:21 --- quit: kc5tja (Client Quit) 10:43:24 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:30:42 --- quit: mmanning (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:24:06 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-95-102.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:30:31 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.154) joined #forth 17:30:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 17:30:36 hiya all 17:46:50 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 17:46:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 17:48:06 hiya kc5tja 17:48:19 Whoa. :) 17:48:22 Didn't see you here. :) 17:48:39 really? thanks :) 17:48:50 Don't know why, I just didn't. :) 17:48:56 i guess his diet's working 17:49:06 Mine isn't. :/ 17:49:19 But hopefully the bike ride into work next week will start to help out. 18:04:51 kc5tja: got a couple of questions.... 18:05:17 sure 18:05:26 I remember you talked about trying to compile GEM...any progress? just curious 18:05:33 No. 18:05:59 I knew it couldn't recompile it -- the sources are tied to the Borland compilers for DOS, and even if I could, it'd require a huge rewrite for Linux anyway. 18:06:39 I was more interested in rewriting it from scratch to be a bit more portable, maybe. 18:06:46 I 18:06:48 err 18:06:52 ah 18:06:55 But I never went anywhere with that. 18:07:52 I looked at the list of GEM stuff on Google list, and there doesn't seem to be an "official" version of GEM source code out there 18:08:39 That's correct. There isn't. :) 18:09:11 That's actually part of the problem -- the original sources have been lost over the years. 18:09:21 It's amazing Caldera has maintained as much of the sources as they did. 18:09:40 interesting! that makes the precise "GEM experience" perhaps elusive 18:10:06 * kc5tja notes that GEM on Atari ST and GEM on the PC are two very different user experiences, even though they share much in the user interface. 18:10:06 :) 18:10:24 Atari ST's GEM is forked off the 1.0 release of GEM, while the latest PC GEMs are all 2.0 or 3.0, after the Apple lawsuit. 18:10:30 yeah...I read some of the articles a certain website linked from Google Directory...what a fscked up stuff :) 18:10:36 Yep. 18:10:49 * kc5tja actually likes GEM as far as it goes. Very simple to write software for, though lots of little details. 18:11:06 I view GEM as something to inspire my own work from, but I wouldn't re-implement GEM verbatim today. 18:12:18 * TheBlueWizard nods...and remembers Atari ST...it looks a bit too close to Mac (except that it got colors...shown at 70 Hz scanrate :) 18:13:59 Yep. 18:14:23 It's amazing how much of MacOS it replicated with 1/10th the software. :D 18:16:23 I was shopping for a computer back then in 1986...and I didn't have much cash, and I spent a lot of thinking...I decided to spend more on Amiga 1000, seeing it had a lot of potential and a future while Atari ST is in some way a rehashed 8-bit in 32-bit clothing machine 18:17:51 Well, Atari needed a machine to compete with the Amiga, but it couldn't spend a lot of cash on it (they'd already lost a huge investment when Amiga was ultimately bought out by Commodore). 18:17:52 I don't know what GEM footprint was, but I know MacOS footprint in the early Mac series was pretty small...the very first one had only 64K footprint..the next one had 128K 18:18:07 SO they built a machine that was competitive with the Amiga, but using as many off-the-shelf components as possible. 18:18:29 You mean ROM space when you say footprint? 18:19:13 * TheBlueWizard knows about the big battle that Jack Tramiel waged....he tried to grab Amiga and failed, then instead he tried to squelch Amiga by selling Atari STs...."Power Without Price" was the slogan :) 18:19:15 GEM is relatively tiny -- 192K included Atari's version of MS-DOS (for lack of better term), plus the VDI, plus the AES, plus I believe the desktop application. 18:20:44 I mean the portion that would make up both GUI and enough of an OS, however that is defined (the early MacOS was something of an oddity...one has to write an app in order to "complete" the "OSness") 18:22:14 Well, the same is true for MS-DOS too. 18:22:20 DOS is itself not a complete OS. :) 18:22:25 by "OSness" I mean it would be enough to stand up on its own...early MacOS practically requires an app to be there to manage the events around 18:22:49 Yes. 18:22:55 That's true of most any OS I know though. 18:22:56 yeah, exactly...DOS isn't a complete OS 18:24:14 * TheBlueWizard hmms re: GEM's apparent footprint 18:29:59 ok, another question: I know you worked with COM (after all, you wrote an Amiga version of it), and, although I don't know if you're familiar with related component framework technologies such as CORBA, I am wondering what would be your favorite one... 18:32:21 That is a tough question to answer. 18:32:40 Both COM and Corba have qualities that are unique and make them ideal for certain applications. 18:33:00 As far as application extensibility is concerned, I believe that COM is currently the superior choice. 18:33:23 But for true distributed object capabilities, CORBA simply cannot be beat. 18:33:46 But if I were to pick one and only one technology as my all-time favorite, CORBA is the winner. 18:33:56 * TheBlueWizard has next to zero experience with COM and CORBA (and others), hence the soliciting for opinions ;) 18:34:11 hmm 18:35:24 of course Forth's philosophy is to keep it real simple and clean, and I suspect both COM and CORBA don't quite cut the mustard.... 18:36:19 Although it wouldn't look like CORBA, it's actually easier to support CORBA in Forth than it is COM for all cases except the case where you're invoking a method on an object in the same thread. 18:37:04 that sounds strange... 18:37:06 But whenever possible, one should keep objects within the current address space and thread anyway in Forth, so it probably won't be much of an issue in most cases. 18:37:13 Define "that"? 18:38:22 Hmm...30 minutes until major IRC rehubbing starts to occur. 18:39:38 that = "the problem with invoking the method on an object in the same thread" 18:42:06 That's not quite what I wrote. 18:42:36 er...let me restate... 18:42:47 The reason is, if you know for a pure fact that the object is local the thread, then you can just invoke it's method directly. 18:42:54 that = the problem with "invoking the method on an object in the same thread" 18:43:04 If you know for a pure fact that the object is remote, then you can create a network packet to invoke the method remotely. 18:43:22 But if you DON'T know where the object actually IS, you have to test every time you invoke the method to see if it's local or remote. 18:44:02 And by local, I mean an object that exists in the context of the currently running thread. 18:44:07 I see now...yeah...the app has to know the "whereabouts" of the object in order to invoke a method correctly.... 18:44:30 (even if the object is in the same address space, but not managed by the current thread, you'll need to pass a remote invokation message to the managing thread, so as to keep everything synchronized) 18:44:49 * kc5tja nods 18:45:08 I see...thanks 18:45:41 n/p 18:45:51 Are you planning on utilizing CORBA or COM in the future? 18:45:58 Or is this just general knowledge? 18:46:12 (just curious) 18:46:41 (it ended up starting out as general knowledge for me, and then I found practical uses for it at Armored Internet, where I learned more about how it works under the hood as a result) 18:47:16 general knowledge...perhaps will use it in the furture, especially in GNOME app developing (that's down the road though) 18:47:49 Yeah 18:47:58 Gnome takes care of a lot of CORBA activity behind the scenes for you. 18:48:23 But it's front and center if you want to program for Berlin or Fresco. :) 18:48:36 yeah, knowing about it and having an experience are two different things, and I rather have experience in order to make best use or understanding of it...in case I ever have a hhankering for developing a better stuff ;) 18:48:52 * kc5tja nods 18:51:56 * kc5tja cringes everytime he sees the across-the-street neighbors take their Cadillac Eldorado out for only 15 minutes. That's just not enough time to get good milage with it. 18:51:57 :/ 18:52:02 Ditto for their SUVs. 18:53:19 Well, at any rate, at least I've replicated the Manson thermodynamic cycle from cooking food in the Microwave. :D 18:53:22 lol...no wonder too many people get fat these days...not enough exercise 18:53:29 Yep. 18:53:55 And here I am, faced with riding 30 miles daily (15 miles approx. one way) to/from work because my car's transmission is on the outs. 18:54:16 * TheBlueWizard do exercise, sort of, by walking three blocks to subway, and three blocks back, daily 18:54:22 It'll be pure hell once I start, but as I keep doing it, it'll get better and better, I'm sure. And then, it becomes fun, and then habit. 18:55:30 yep 18:56:02 it takes a while to acquire a 'high' from good exercising 18:56:21 I acquire it immediately from bike riding. 18:56:22 I love to ride. 18:56:32 But I normally ride only 6 miles or so round-trip. 18:56:42 What I'm looking to do is go 30 miles round trip. 18:57:14 With an average road speed of 6MPH on unfamiliar territory or on very steep hills, it's looking like I'm going to be needing two hours to get into work. 18:57:27 * TheBlueWizard nods 18:57:28 (it usually takes me 10 to 20 minutes by car, to put things into perspective. :D) 18:58:41 Which only fuels my interest in engine technologies. :) 18:58:47 Especially Stirling and turbines. 18:59:47 yeah...transportation technology is very important, especially when one wants to get away from being dependent on gas 19:00:34 I don't have problems with being dependent on gas, provided I have a high-efficiency engine to use it with. I mean, my current car is horrifyingly inefficient with gas, despite having high mechanical efficiency. :D 19:01:21 I firmly believe that one reason why gasoline engines today are so inefficient with gas is that they all lack something that the external combustion engines have: regenerators. 19:01:38 But I overwhelmingly prefer an external combustion engine over an internal combustion engine any day. 19:02:08 Stirling and Manson cycle engines are my two current favorites. 19:02:19 true. the internal combustion engine is basically heat driven, so is bounded by thermodynamic laws, and thus is necessarily inefficient. what is needed is a much more direct energy conversion method 19:02:43 I appreciate Manson cycle engines especially because they have only one moving part per cylinder. 19:03:32 TheBlueWizard: You can get over the 50% efficiency limit by using "combined cycle" technology -- e.g., using the waste heat of one engine to drive another engine, and coupling the two powers together. 19:03:51 * TheBlueWizard isn't familiar with Manson cycle engines 19:05:03 They're neat. :) 19:05:17 Let me find you a URL to a site that has the original 1955 magazine article describing it. 19:05:49 yeah, you can harvest the heat waste this way...but again the combined technology is still heat driven and thus is bounded by the laws 19:05:58 http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/Manson.html 19:06:08 Umm, everything is heat driven. 19:06:38 --- quit: I440r (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:06:41 The argument that electricity isn't is false, because something had to create that electricity to begin with, and unilaterally, that's a heat source. 19:06:51 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:07:14 --- quit: kc5tja (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:07:15 --- quit: XeF4 (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:07:20 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:07:20 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 19:07:20 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o kc5tja 19:07:43 --- quit: kc5tja (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:07:43 --- quit: XeF4 (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:07:53 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:07:53 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 19:07:53 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o kc5tja 19:08:46 --- quit: oo__ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:08:57 --- join: oo__ (o@62.142.120.91) joined #forth 19:09:08 netsplit is sooo fun :/ 19:09:19 Yeah 19:09:24 What was the last thing you saw from me? 19:09:52 "The argument that electricity isn't is false, ..." 19:10:01 I did say that major rehubbing was going to happen, about 30 minutes ago. :D 19:10:12 yeah, I know :) 19:10:14 --- quit: skylan (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:10:25 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4474.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 19:10:28 cool. 19:10:34 Wasn't sure if that got through or not. 19:10:35 and it is far worse in #debian :D 19:10:47 Heheh :) 19:11:23 * TheBlueWizard is on #debian, and sees the massive netsplitting/netjoining going on 19:14:24 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-19-180-158.shv.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 19:14:27 hey 19:15:15 hiya snowrichard 19:16:19 TheBlueWizard: http://www.geocities.com/kenboak/Manson.html -- not sure if you saw this yet or not. 19:16:31 saw that link 19:16:41 hello wizard , kc5... 19:16:55 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:55 --- quit: Sonarman (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:55 --- quit: ianP (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:55 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:55 --- quit: I440r (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:56 --- quit: onetom (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:56 --- quit: ChanServ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:16:56 Greetings snowrichard ) 19:16:59 :) even 19:16:59 lazy I have been typeing on web site all day 19:17:00 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:17:00 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 19:17:00 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 19:17:00 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 19:17:16 could ya say that again? 19:17:17 * kc5tja has been working at In-N-Out all day. 19:17:31 All I said was, "Greetings snowrichard :)" 19:17:34 neat php coded business networking site 19:17:57 and someone asked about my michael language so there is a link to it on that neat site now 19:18:10 --- quit: I440r (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:18:24 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:18:27 Cool. 19:18:43 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.154) joined #forth 19:18:43 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-169-95-102.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:18:43 --- join: ianP (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 19:18:43 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 19:18:43 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o TheBlueWizard 19:19:00 manual updated pretty much up to date and an example program at veteransinaction.org/files now 19:19:24 a "real" application coded in my little language 19:19:58 with my cut at explaining "extreme" programming methods 19:20:52 this business networking site has a link on my web site so you can find it if you like. :) 19:22:10 I may have lined up some actual work based on the proposed spam legislation that passed the senate 19:22:24 cool. 19:23:09 it is now illegal (with prison time!!! to send email with forged headers, you must provide opt out mechanism, and there is proposed "do not email" list. 19:23:45 think it is stalled in the house but the washington post has a story about it 19:24:08 and was on peter jennings show last night 19:24:34 * TheBlueWizard doesn't think it will work 19:24:51 maybe not but the thought of prison time might make some people think twice 19:25:13 but it doesn't deter murderers and child rapists so .... 19:25:19 ha ha ha....yeah "riiiiight!" :P 19:26:07 * TheBlueWizard is so cynical, knowing politicians are just doing things just to get votes 19:26:25 it is easy to say we unanimously hate spammers. 19:26:37 which was the vote in the senate 19:26:48 97 -0 19:27:03 3 sentators missed the vote 19:27:36 lol...bet those three senators are so weak willed ;) 19:28:26 I think it great to propose actual jail time. It really does clog up the internet. I have a much better solution that no one would buy though. 19:28:51 what would that be? 19:29:22 Make all commercial unsolicited traffic an optional optin server where advertizers actually pay readers of the ads a micropayment for every ad they respond to. 19:30:14 in other words if you dont subscribe to the ad server as a reader you would not get ANY ads. 19:30:30 and the ones you responded to you would get PAID to read. 19:31:20 nice idea, but unworkable, since they can always claim you already subscribe to the ads (even if you don't), and they can avoid pay stuff 19:31:36 s/pay/paying/ 19:31:54 you could have a new advertising protocol RFQ that has a protocol for efficient broadcasting to subscribers that enforces the payment scheme 19:32:19 you mean RFC, not RFQ? 19:32:27 RFC yeah 19:33:14 would save enough bandwidth to make the internet much more efficient over all I think 19:34:20 send out 1 broadcast stream that routers broadcast to all points more efficently than thousands of separate emails. 19:36:37 could offset the commercial aspect by also providing a "public service" access method where protected "free speech" type mails could be sent to subscribers as well. 19:37:11 with strict monitoring to ensure slander/libel laws adhered to 19:38:28 USENET is similar to the type of protocols that might work but the signal / noise ratio is bad in unmoderated forums. 19:38:54 nntp 19:39:58 sorry for the dissertation I'll sit back and read for a while listen to music 19:48:41 sorry -- working on some things. 19:50:35 gotta go...must sleep...bye all 19:50:53 laters. :) 19:51:04 bye kc5tja :) 19:51:19 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:24:34 --- quit: snowrichard ("Leaving") 20:52:54 * kc5tja notes that Saran Wrap (or plastic wrap in general) makes an overwhelmingly superior diaphram material for use in homebrew tin-can Stirling engines... 21:02:38 --- join: foxchip (foxchip@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 21:02:47 re foxchip 21:03:08 re 21:03:16 re? 21:03:26 Short for "re-hello" 21:03:43 It's an IRCism. :) 21:04:12 ok 21:06:00 * kc5tja is playing with thermodynamics again. 21:06:33 * kc5tja has found that plastic wrap makes an overwhelmingly superior diaphram for a Stirling engine than a rubber balloon does. And it seals better and easier too. 21:07:54 I wish they would teach basic practical theromodynamics to the baggers at the supermarket. 21:08:11 Hehe 21:08:19 Like, put all frozen goods together. :) 21:08:49 I just wish that they would pack the bags better. 21:08:56 They seem to have one rule, heavy items in the bottom. 21:08:59 I find the folks at Trader Joe's pack the bags quite efficiently. 21:11:30 How have things been going with you? 21:11:38 * kc5tja found a job working for In-N-Out Burgers. 21:12:00 About the same, ups and downs. 21:12:22 * kc5tja nods 21:13:32 * kc5tja failed his Calc-II class in college. Not for lack of trying though. I just keep making stupid, yet critical, mistakes. That, and I can never seem to recognize when I can make a U-substitution. >:( 21:13:42 So I'm going to take it again next semester if I can. 21:15:03 I always found it amusing that we use the term 'factoring' in Forth with a similar meaning to mathematics, and some people are better at it than others. 21:15:16 * kc5tja nods 21:15:32 Factoring is the one thing I don't really have much of a problem with in Forth or, for the most part, in algebra. 21:16:20 Completing the square is my all-time best friend now too. :D I've occasionally been able to use that to find a square root of a number faster than I could key it into my calculator. Not always, but sometimes. :D 21:16:28 I always thought it would be fun to use a bunch of unfactored equations in a problem description in some programming challange and see who can factor away most of the details using cancelation. 21:17:49 * kc5tja nods 21:19:24 I once did a seventh power root to five digits in my head on a bet in high school. But don't forget that talking Barbie says, "Math is hard." 21:19:24 Been doing anything with AHA of late? 21:19:44 * kc5tja can't do a seventh power root in his head. 21:19:44 :) 21:20:03 I'm a pencil and paper guy. I really can't keep anything straight in my head, really. 21:20:12 I have to write it all down, which infuriates my math teachers. 21:20:24 "At this level, you should be able to just think this stuff through," they'd say. 21:21:00 I also have a severe learning impediment when it comes to trigonometric identities. 21:21:36 I saw Pascal's triangle in junior high and immediately understood how to do integer power roots by the long method. I wish they would show the theory whey they teach you how to do a square root by the long method. 21:21:54 I know nothing about that. 21:21:58 I don't even know the long method. 21:22:06 I've seen it done several times, but I've completely forgotten how to do it. 21:22:17 And I've never seen it done in school. 21:22:36 I didn't learn the algorithms for the rote math that I learned as a child until I was in college. How much better it would have been if they could have explained what they were teaching in grade school. 21:22:43 1 21:22:46 1 2 1 21:22:51 1 3 3 1 21:23:00 1 4 6 4 1 21:23:10 1 5 10 10 5 1 21:23:23 1 6 15 20 15 6 1 21:23:38 1 7 22 35 35 22 7 1 21:24:07 Yes 21:24:19 I abhore the "need to know basis only" bullcrap in schools today. 21:24:23 1x^7 7x^6y 22x^5y^2 35x^4y^3 etc. 21:24:46 I have no problems teaching any of my children (if I ever have any) Calculus and linear algebra at a very young age. 21:25:00 Hey, if I can teach myself assembly language at age 6, they should be able to Calc then too! 21:25:30 what was the cpu that you learned at age 6 21:27:19 Pentium has put an end to that I think 21:27:29 Z-80 21:28:07 I should qualify/correct my statement: age 6 is when I started to learn assembly language. 21:28:13 * kc5tja has never looked back either. :) 21:29:27 It can make one feel sorry for the beginners today. Where do they start with so many layers of onion skin? 21:30:22 Yup. 21:30:59 Wow, I didn't realize this, but Pascal's Triangle can be used to expand binomials to arbitrary powers. Sweet!! This can come in extremely handy especially when factoring equations. 21:31:14 Thanks for the reference! This will come in extremely handy. 21:32:18 Years ago Chuck talked about dispelling the 'user illusion.' No one else seems interested in that today, so I suspect that the user illusion is reality for almost everyone. 21:32:57 I believe that it is too. 21:33:08 Which is one of the reasons why I'm slowly working my way out of the computer industry. 21:33:23 Yes, a few tricks like seeing Pascal's triangle makes it obvious what you are doing when you solve 1*x^2 + 2xy + y^2 21:33:35 I've had it with the brick wall politics, the strong-arm tactics, and the just plain non-fun involved with the whole thing. 21:34:24 the parts fit together so beautifully when you see the theory instead of just having to belch back rote information. 21:34:33 Yes 21:35:08 Unfortunately, and my previous math teacher put it nicely, school in general is basically boot-camp. There is no time to go into the theory, or explain things through completely. 21:35:24 The schools would lose a bunch of money that way, because it'd take forever to graduate students. 21:35:40 I think programming is much the same. There are now a near infinate number of distracting details in the various layers of onion skin and people can spend their whole lives learning details without understanding the big picture at all. 21:36:48 Yes, well probably better to not get me started on education. I wouldn't want to go off on a rant or anything... ;-) 21:37:17 School used to be boot camp. Now it mostly a detention center. 21:37:36 Depends on the school. 21:37:45 I was referring to college more than anything else. 21:37:56 I agree with detention center for highschools and lower. 21:38:28 College is a different problem. Many of my friends became teachers or professors. They lament the state of the system now. 21:38:45 They complain that people are rewarded degrees for putting in their time. 21:39:28 * kc5tja nods 21:39:36 I have met quite a few PHds who would not be able to show what I would consider high school or freshmen level understanding of most subjects. 21:39:41 * kc5tja was thinking of becoming a Physics professor once I acquired a Ph.D. in it. 21:40:39 It may be the biggest problem in US culture, anti-intellecturalism manifests as lack of focus on education. 21:41:00 At least there are still a few people who are willing to suffer the problems of teaching. 21:41:28 What's on the tube is often more important than what's in the viewer's head. And mass media isn't going to change that. It'd put them right out of business. 21:43:04 I saw a film a couple of months ago called McLuhan's Wake. It reviewed the life and work of Marshal McLuhan. It was hard to understand what he was saying in the sixties, but we have certainly seen it come to pass. 21:44:08 That name doesn't ring a bell. 21:44:10 People just had no idea what he meant when he said that the new electronic media would bring an end to literacy. 21:44:29 You know, it's funny you mention that. 21:44:47 He became a household name int he 60s, but few people really understood his ideas very well. 21:44:54 Because for as heavily as I use computers, and as much as I enjoy using one, and the convenience . . . I can't help but be utterly fascinated by the humble abacus. 21:45:57 --- quit: skylan ("bbiab") 21:46:22 At the time his phrase 'global village' brought about by global media coverage was pretty clear. But he also describe what we call a web search today and how it would change things. 21:46:36 bbiab? 21:46:41 Be Back In A Bit 21:46:47 Another IRCism. :D 21:47:10 I'm a total Luddite, it seems. 21:47:30 I love technology, but I respect "the old ways" too. I feel more balanced when there is what I feel to be a proper mixture of the two. 21:48:37 Example: I would like to build myself a sundial to actually tell time with. I thoroughly love pop-pop engines. Stirling engines also fascinate me. 21:48:51 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4474.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 21:49:19 Oh, and my all-time favorite communications mode on ham radio is morse code. Go figure. 21:49:47 On the Beach. 21:50:50 On the beach? 21:51:18 I recently saw Lost in Translation. Having been to Japan a couple of time to study, and having studied Japanese and Japanese lit in college I found the film quite amusing. 21:52:47 (On the Beach, sci fi book and film about the aftermath of WWIII where a mysterious morse code signal is coming from San Diego even though they don't understand how anyone could still be alive there.) 21:53:31 Interesting. :) 21:53:53 You never know -- with the way things are going here, that person transmitting could be me. 21:54:05 There was a scene in Lost in Translation in a Japanese Game parlor. Quite interesting to see people totally immersed in their electronic games. Very McLuhan-esce 21:54:23 After all, we have The Governator in office now. 21:54:48 foxchip: Isn't Japan pretty much already like that? (Based on my observation of the Japanese foreign-exchange students attending my local college) 21:56:59 yes, game playing has always been a big part of japanese culture. But today, it is closer to a William Gibson novel than I would have thought it would be years ago. 21:58:05 "We're All Bozos on This Bus" has always been my favorite comedy album. See you on the funway! 21:59:40 I don't know what to say, except that I think I'd be happier if I were born 100 years ago instead of 28 years ago. :/ 22:01:16 You were. 22:02:38 Happiness was a higher priority back then I think than today. There is little attention to teaching people how to be happy today. 22:03:15 Well, everybody today is all instant-gratification. 22:03:40 Their definition of happiness is how big an engine is in their car, or how many Backstreet Boys albums they possess. 22:04:55 I find it somewhat awkward that I'm here, at 28 years of age, hardly old enough to know but a fraction of what happened back in the 60s, wishing that I were born long before then. 22:06:17 --- join: I440r_ (~I440r@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 22:08:06 hi jeff! 22:08:10 Oh well. Nothing much that I can do about it. I think I'm going to go to bed. I have work in the morning, and homework to do thereafter. 22:08:34 nite kc5 22:08:49 73 all <-- and that's NOT an IRCism. :D 22:09:03 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:14:53 Hi Marc 22:15:01 Mark? 22:15:51 ok, Mark. 22:17:21 Sam and I talked about Math, McLuhan, and media. Seems pretty quiet now. Maybe I will sign off too. 22:17:52 mark 22:18:07 yea its about time for zzz 22:18:16 Yes, thanks, I did a whois to be sure. 22:18:17 specially when i have a bad chest infection lol 22:18:20 :) 22:23:16 Well let me say goodnight even if it is not an IRCism abreviation. 22:23:32 --- quit: foxchip () 23:19:45 --- join: fridge (~matt@dsl-203-33-161-228.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 23:34:06 --- quit: Sonarman ("leaving") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.10.24