00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.21 00:12:42 --- quit: pengangguran[A] (Remote closed the connection) 01:58:57 --- join: scobidoo7 (~unknown@202.43.255.28) joined #forth 02:44:29 --- nick: hefner -> hefzzz 02:44:31 --- quit: scobidoo7 (Remote closed the connection) 03:26:05 --- join: pengangguran[A] (~unknown@202.43.255.28) joined #forth 05:26:08 --- quit: pengangguran[A] (Remote closed the connection) 05:27:25 --- join: pengangguran[A] (~unknown@202.43.255.28) joined #forth 05:33:17 --- join: I440r (~I440r@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 05:33:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 05:33:35 --- nick: I440r -> I4-wrk 07:27:28 --- quit: pengangguran[A] (Remote closed the connection) 08:12:40 --- join: yasam (~sam@210-54-228-8.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 08:21:51 --- join: schihei (~schihei@pD9E5C734.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:25:47 --- join: rO| (~rO|@217.84.81.253) joined #forth 08:26:49 hi 08:27:14 longtime no seen 08:28:20 a nice topic ;-) 08:29:03 so which do you prefer toroidal or belt ;) 08:32:45 yasam: for such i prefer #4thOT ;-) 08:35:22 hrm would prefer nm 08:40:05 but its in the topic! Ha 08:40:44 well sort of 08:42:39 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:11:13 --- join: scobidoo7 (~unknown@202.43.255.28) joined #forth 09:41:02 --- nick: scobidoo7 -> pengangguran 09:42:19 --- quit: I4-wrk (Connection timed out) 09:44:07 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4474.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 10:16:18 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:16:26 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:16:26 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:16:41 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 10:17:15 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:17:15 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:17:23 anybody can help me to find atf mirc script ? 10:19:22 BLARGH 10:19:25 mirc scripts 10:21:22 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:21:22 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:21:22 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:22:01 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 10:22:38 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:22:38 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:29:23 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:29:59 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:29:59 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:31:04 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:31:04 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:31:04 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 10:34:14 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:34:14 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:34:14 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:35:48 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:35:48 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:35:48 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 10:36:23 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:36:23 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:37:23 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:37:23 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:40:36 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:40:36 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:40:36 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:42:11 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:42:11 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:42:12 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 10:42:33 --- quit: arke_ (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:42:33 --- quit: rpc (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:42:40 --- quit: MysticOne (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:43:01 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 10:43:01 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 10:45:32 --- join: arke_ (~arke@adsl-68-73-208-253.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 11:27:25 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 11:31:16 --- quit: yasam (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:36:15 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D685.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:38:23 --- nick: hefzzz -> hefner 11:54:36 --- nick: hefner -> hefaway 11:57:38 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 11:57:38 hey.. 12:02:20 hey. 12:02:39 what's up? 12:05:40 trying o write letter and go sleep and invent my course matter 12:05:51 dead line next monday and i should photo 3 people 12:05:55 and interview :/ 12:06:19 werd. 12:22:57 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 12:22:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 12:23:07 re 12:23:39 kc5tja: congratulations 12:23:55 sup kc5tja 12:24:13 Just talked with a shop mechanic regarding my RX-7's transmission problems. 12:24:21 * kc5tja has been tracking a few things. 12:24:30 werd. 12:24:36 First, my milage when I got the car was 22.5 MPG freeway -- decent, and well within acceptable limits for an automatic transmission car. 12:24:48 Now I'm getting about 20.5 MPG freeway average. 12:24:56 hmmm... 12:24:59 you need to give it to me, of course 12:25:01 that'll fix it 12:25:15 Also, at *about* the time my transmission started having major shifting issues, I noticed the mileage went down, AND, as if that weren't enough, it also started to slightly burn the tranny fluid. 12:25:26 my RX-7 is getting like 13 MPG. : | 12:25:28 * kc5tja knows for sure I need new fluid in the gearbox, and possibly a new tranny fluid filter. 12:25:39 kc5tja: don't you have a new tranny in it? 12:25:47 MysticOne: No. 12:26:04 kc5tja: install a manual 12:26:04 kc5tja: didn't you get a manual put into it? 12:26:04 a7r: I'd love to. Got $6K for it? 12:26:13 kc5tja: it doesn't cost anywhere near that much 12:26:13 a7r: Remembe,r I work at In-N-Out Burger now. :) 12:26:34 a7r: It does when you can't do it yourself. 12:26:40 the parts are 425 12:26:47 --- join: I4-wrk (~I440r@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 12:26:52 and the work is really easy.. but if it's your daily, it'd suck to learn on. :( 12:27:01 a7r: Would you be able to help put one in for me if I were to pay you in the future? 12:27:11 Yes, it's not only my daily, it's my ONLY. 12:27:47 MysticOne: Nope. I want to though. 12:28:38 I can't even afford to get the one I have fixed (yet, but I'm saving up. I *CAN* afford the diagnostic run on it though). 12:28:38 kc5tja: depends on the time.. but I'm sure my younger brother would love to do it. 12:28:38 (which is better than I was three weeks ago) 12:28:56 a7r: Yeah, I'd like to get that car basically overhauled. After the transmission, I want to make sure the engine is in top notch shape. It *FEELS* solid, but I think it might possibly be either leaking or burning some coolant. 12:29:01 his hourly is ~30 USD depending on the job, and he'll source insanely cheap parts. 12:29:11 And I know 13B N/As are notoriously bad for leaking coolant. 12:29:26 that's how my TurboII engine died. 12:29:29 a7r: FUCK that's excellent! I'm sold... 12:29:37 That's well worth the drive into LA for that. 12:29:44 And I'm down in San Diego now. :) 12:29:51 you'd have to drive farther up than LA.. we're up in SB. : | 12:29:55 * kc5tja commutes 120 miles a week just to get to school. :) 12:30:03 a7r: Oh, well, that changes things somewhat. :D 12:30:10 it's another 80 miles. 12:30:12 Maybe I can have the car towed up or something. 12:30:14 yah 12:30:19 I thought you said you were in LA. 12:30:21 he'd need a week with it. 12:30:33 nah, born and bred SBer. 12:30:56 a7r: How far north of LA are you? 12:31:04 almost exactly 80 miles. 12:31:10 25 miles out of ventura. 12:31:24 it's a nice drive up the coast on the 101 from LA 12:31:30 Damn. :/ That'd make it about 180 miles from where I currently live. :) 12:31:35 yup. 12:31:53 what about taking it to mazdatrix or someone down in LA? 12:32:08 6k sounds outrageous.. who quoted you that price? 12:32:32 A couple of mechanics down here, and even the folks at Mazdatrix laughed when I made the suggestion. 12:32:41 haha 12:32:47 well, it's all a matter of desire. :) 12:32:49 * kc5tja can call again to find out specifics. 12:33:10 I mean really, you might as well just pick up a turboII, unless you really like that specific car. 12:33:26 but the work isn't insane. 12:33:36 Well, how much would a tranny swap like that cost me/ 12:34:19 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 12:34:35 you'll need: clutch pedal assembly, firewall modifications, slave and master cylinder, transmission, flywheel, clutch, new counterweight, new driveshaft, and then the time. 12:35:06 I really think you could get the parts for under 500 dollars. 12:35:18 I don't. 12:35:25 The tranny alone is more than a grand. 12:35:31 no way 12:35:45 Where are you going to find a transmission for about $150? 12:35:47 the 5-speed TurboII tranny dave just put in his car was 250 bucks. 12:36:01 Refurbished? 12:36:05 or brand spanking new? 12:36:07 he refurbished it himself. 12:36:10 it was definitely used. 12:36:14 Well, there you go. :) 12:36:17 ... 12:36:34 why would you buy new parts on a car that hasn't been made in 12 years? :) 12:36:35 What did he do to refurbish it? 12:36:50 a7r: So I wouldn't have to fix that component again in the next year. 12:37:12 that mentality doens't make sense on components that don't break. 12:37:20 .. easily 12:37:30 especially on things you can easily get rebuilt. 12:37:39 Well, what did he do to refurbish the transmission? Why did it need refurbishing in the first place? 12:38:00 if you're going to buy a part like that, before installing it, you check it out 12:38:16 Yes, and I haven't a clue as to what I'm looking for. 12:38:36 I'm pretty positive that if I were to take apart a tranny, I'd never be able to put it back together again. 12:38:38 so you tear it down, have a look, and then build it back up with parts that need replacing. 12:38:50 the big thing is having the proper tools. 12:39:04 (experience helps too -- I have 0 experience. :D) 12:39:58 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33733&item=2437755582 <- this is the type of thing you rebuild. 12:40:18 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33733&item=2438520341 <- here's an even better one. 12:42:11 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33727&item=2438718855 <- haha, look at the size difference. 12:43:24 I can't guage the size. 12:43:27 Is the auto bigger or smaller? 12:43:52 bigger 12:43:53 And that reminds me -- wouldn't I need to have a new computer too? 12:44:05 not as far as I know. 12:44:15 that's what I was wondering 12:44:22 this is a car designed in 86 12:44:25 how you make the computer cope with no longer having a transmission that it can control 12:44:40 So the cruise control will still work -- it just will be limited to whatever gear I have it in (which is fine if I'm in 5th gear anyway) 12:44:43 older auto trannies aren't computer controlled. 12:44:59 kc5tja: well cruise control can be purely mechanical 12:45:32 MysticOne: I think mine is. I can feel the gas pedal go down and up and all that. But I do know the transmission shifts for the cruise system more than it'll shift for me. :) 12:45:41 So I was thinking there might be a link between the two. 12:45:45 hehe 12:46:21 * MysticOne falls asleep on his desk 12:46:26 MysticOne: ? 12:46:34 I'm so sleepy :( 12:46:43 I stil lhave 2 hours, 12 minutes to go 12:46:57 a7r: I don't know man. It just sounds like such a huge, huge job (for something that *seems* relatively trivial, but is easy to fsck up). 12:47:05 Ahh 12:47:15 kc5tja: if it were me, I'd just pick up another car. 12:47:22 but if you wanted to do it, you can, and it won't cost 6k. 12:48:00 IMHO, too much trouble 12:48:04 get a turbo while you're at it. 12:48:06 but, I'm not kc5tja :) 12:48:12 MysticOne: you worked on cars much? ;) 12:48:24 Why get a turbo? 12:48:40 the added performance is why I'd get one. 12:48:47 the better rear diff, the better transmission. 12:48:51 a7r: not really 12:49:06 a7r: But what about fuel economy? And engine life? 12:49:19 MysticOne: the level of difficulty is usually directly proportional with the age of the car.. unless you're working on a honda. 12:49:40 kc5tja: it depends on how you drive, and how much you bost. 12:49:41 er boost 12:49:52 if you're driving it like an NA car, it'll have fuel economy like an NA 12:49:57 a7r: my point is that it's a lot of trouble for not a lot of benefit 12:49:59 i.e. you stay out of pressure above atmosphere. 12:50:08 other than "Wow, now I have a manual transmission" :) 12:50:19 MysticOne: nod, but the costs of fixing an auto can sometimes outweigh the cost of the swap. 12:50:30 a7r: yeah, but his might only need a fluid change and a new filter :) 12:50:50 I don't race, but when I want to accelerate, I want it to accelerate immediately. Down here, freeways are so congested that I often have to "race" 18-wheelers and other fucking morons who have no road consideration for people trying to merge onto the freeway. 12:51:06 kc5tja: the turbo spools plenty fast. 12:51:17 you won't notice it. 12:51:38 Man, I really hate having to consider getting a new car. >:( 12:51:48 You *never* know what you're going to get. 12:52:00 umm... 12:52:07 why don't you take it to the mechanic and get that diagnostic run? :) 12:52:11 THEN make plans 12:52:13 MysticOne: I am. 12:52:16 k :) 12:52:29 MysticOne: Remember, this is my ONLY car. 12:52:50 I can't just sell it, then wait six months to find "the right car," and go through the bullshit of having to purchase it, smog it, and hope to god it passes smog. 12:53:31 kc5tja: my point being that it's foolish to consider getting a new car before you've even found out if you have to :) 12:53:41 Of course. 12:54:23 :):) 12:54:39 But I'm stating a fact: I hate having to consider it, because if the transmission IS bad (which is a VERY real possibility considering the fact that it's burning its own fluid and making wonderful aromas while idling), then the cost of the tranny + the cost of labor is significantly approaching the cost of another car. 12:55:03 kc5tja: btw ... I had this box compiling the other day 12:55:11 kc5tja: bunch of GTK stuff ... 12:55:23 kc5tja: it was flying by, load of like 4.7 or something ... and 100% responsive all the while :) 12:55:26 it was so nice 12:55:54 Is this your Mac? 12:56:02 yah 12:57:40 A lot of it has to do with the fact that PowerPCs are just plain better CPUs at everything they do over Intel, and the other aspect is that the Macintosh hardware has real I/O bandwidth and real DMA capacity. Not like PCs, where the Northbridge chip is both its saving grace AND it's core bottleneck. 12:58:08 kc5tja: you don't ever have to smog a car you're buying. 12:58:13 If Apple weren't such dicks to their customers, and especially their business associates, I would probably have one myself. 12:58:26 kc5tja: they were always polite to me, just angered me about taking so long 12:58:33 but at least I'm getting panther for $19.95 :) 12:58:50 --- quit: I4-wrk (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:59:24 a7r: I know, but it's still a hassle. The car I have now couldn't be smogged in like a month and a half, before *I* took it to this little, out-of-the-way, little-known shop to have it fixed (for a sum total of $1300, I might add; yes, I did get reimbursed). 13:00:01 Panther is what -- OS X.3? 13:00:13 that's the thing.. how did you register it without it having already been smogged? 13:00:22 It wasn't registered. 13:00:38 I got a delayed registration extension, which granted me two extra months to get it smogged. 13:00:54 But I wasn't fully legal until the very end. 13:00:59 nod. 13:02:53 Anyway, for 90% of the stuff I travel for, I can take my bike now that I live down here. 13:03:09 Literally everything I need is well within biking distance (although work is right on the edge at 16 miles away). 13:03:25 Good think I don't work on school days. :) 13:03:46 s/think/thing/ 13:05:00 Now that's one vehicle class that definitely needs a variable transmission -- bicycles. :) 13:05:15 If it's one thing I hate more than anything else is having to pre-shift to a lower gear before reaching a hill. 13:05:42 You lose *so* much momentum that way that it equals or exceeds the relative power lost by using even a friction-type CVT. 13:05:54 (sum total over the coarse of the whole trip) 13:07:17 Especially for a person who weighs as much as I do. :( 13:10:16 you've gotta go to a fixed wheel 13:12:40 Fixed wheel? What do you mean by that? 13:12:40 --- join: I4-wrk (~I440r@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 13:12:47 no gears 13:15:26 No, I definitely need different gear ratios. 13:15:45 I regularly do 12MPH+ on my bike when not climbing a hill. 13:17:02 yah, so do the bike messengers who run fixed 13:17:43 fixed guys are all zealots for it 13:19:01 kind of like forthers 13:22:33 Well, here's the deal -- I'd go fixed if it had a torque converter on it. :) 13:23:09 (e.g., a Constantinesco torque converter -- MysticOne recalls my ideas about this idea coupled with a bike -- basically the rear wheel is fixed in its highest gear setting, and the torque converter handles the rest) 13:23:51 * kc5tja notes the Constantinesco torque converter is purely mechanical -- absolutely NO vacuum hoses, fluid filters, heck -- no fluid either. 13:24:34 By my calculations, based on how many moving parts it has, it ought to be at least as efficient as a brand new chain, and unlike a chain, it'll STAY at that efficiency for its entire life. 13:24:56 werd 13:24:56 (and it'll last a hell of a lot longer than a chain too -- a bike chain is good only for 1000 miles or so under ideal riding conditions) 13:25:21 That's what I hate about automotive automatic transmissions -- the fucking torque converter is really what sucks all the juice. 13:25:41 Why couldn't they just use automated clutches for each gear plus neutral?? Morons!! 13:25:55 But, alas... 13:27:10 You can demonstrate the principles of operation of a Constantinesco torque converter yourself, using only a broom. :) 13:27:28 Put the tip of the broom on the floor -- concrete works wonderfully (so you can see how powerful it really is). 13:27:42 Place your hand about 3 to 5 inches above the tip. 13:28:03 Move the broom back and forth very, very slowly. You'll find that the broom will swing about the tip (as expected). 13:28:08 Now speed up. :D 13:28:19 Observe how the broom tip becomes uncontrollable with increasing speed. 13:30:24 yah, I can see that. 13:30:41 kc5tja: so I think I've come up with my perfect OS 13:30:55 What's that? 13:31:29 an emacs-like environment, written in assembly and forth, that does lisp or python with the concept of versioned namespaces. 13:32:03 I want to be able to update any piece of code on the fly, and be able to test it out before I push the code to the rest of the system. 13:32:18 * kc5tja finds the trend towards integrated editor/OS environments to be a common theme in most modern UI research and advocacy. 13:32:31 * kc5tja nods 13:32:48 I started hacking zenirc inside emacs, and the fact that I could fix bugs as they were coming up, without stopping the chat session, to be so elite I can't explain. 13:33:14 * kc5tja nods 13:33:25 That's why my ideal OS is just Forth. Nothing but. :) 13:34:09 yah, I don't know how much I'd like that.. if you had some form of partitioning to protect against taking down the machine, that'd be fine. 13:34:19 * kc5tja nods 13:34:25 .. but as a programmer, I know I make mistakes, and I don't want a screw-up hosing my environment. 13:34:31 I doesn't have any plans for that, but I accept your rationale for it. 13:34:32 .. unless it's a major screw-up. 13:34:47 werd. 13:35:34 * MysticOne points kc5tja to /msg! 13:36:07 Hush you! I'm a cuttin'-and-a-pastin'. :D 13:36:21 wtf am I paying you for?! 13:36:23 * MysticOne storms out 13:36:59 oh wait... 13:36:59 I'm not paying you 13:36:59 nevermind 13:36:59 * MysticOne storms in 13:38:53 :) 14:02:34 Going to grab some food from the store. 14:02:36 back in a bit. 14:02:42 * kc5tja is away: grocery shopping. 15:12:36 * kc5tja is back (gone 01:09:54) 15:12:37 --- quit: pengangguran (Remote closed the connection) 15:15:06 Back. 15:15:21 Now that I have foodstuffs, now I have to figure out precisely what it is I want to eat. :) 15:15:31 * kc5tja thinks he'll go for a cheese enchilada. 15:34:23 --- quit: rO| (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:44:02 --- quit: Robert (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:55:14 --- quit: I4-wrk () 16:21:47 --- nick: hefaway -> hefner 16:39:09 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-171-255-49.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 17:09:57 --- join: andreou (~andreou@195.130.107.55) joined #forth 17:39:25 --- join: suprdupr (CrowKilr@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3654517.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 17:40:35 hi 17:42:23 re 17:51:33 yoh 17:54:31 ahoy 18:04:30 --- join: pengangguran (~unknown@202.43.255.28) joined #forth 18:08:29 what could be the next big thing of software? 18:10:08 the next big thing will be when microsoft figures out a legal way to extract money directly from your bank account without all the bother of writing "software" 18:11:37 I mean the next big breakthrough for the poor programmer 18:11:50 unemployment 18:12:41 i truly mean the next major improvement 18:12:46 ah. 18:13:05 you dont believe it's coming? 18:13:09 probably something else lisp or smalltalk did twenty years ago, then. 18:14:05 i dont know those languages, what do you mean? 18:14:14 (I believe current software systems will eventually either collapse under their own weight, or lead to total employment in the software industry in India in order to maintain them :) 18:15:49 suprdupr: I refer to the adage that mainstream programming languages are slowing reinventing lisp (or substitute the language of choice here) 18:16:57 i want them to collapse with an ultimate solution, given actual 32 bit hardware 18:18:32 the place to 'win' is going to be the embedded space. 18:19:30 embedded devices will slowly rot like everything else, once they have network connections of some sort and need to talk to the outside world 18:19:35 i believe we can win by giving programming to the masses, at least I want to give it to me 18:19:50 ? 18:19:54 hefner: bullshit.. with an embedded setup, as long as you're only being held to being compatible with standards, you can do whatever you want. 18:19:57 since i dont practise any programming language aside of assembler 18:21:08 a7r: that is idealistic. certainly a few people will be in the lucky situation to do whatever they want, and everyone else will be running WinME (or whatever they're renamed it) in their toaster. 18:21:42 hefner: it's not idealistic,.. I'm working on my own embedded hardware for sale right now, and no one is telling me to do anything. 18:21:54 my product has to be compatible, and it has to work. 18:22:13 .. which are the only requirements. 18:22:26 a7r: what is you project using for language? 18:22:47 suprdupr: a custom written forth on the embedded hardware, and C and Python on the control side. 18:29:36 This is why I'm leaving the computer industry completely. 18:29:51 at least on a professional level. 18:30:24 I'm staying, cuz it's easy money. 18:30:37 I can't deal with the politics involved. 18:30:38 and I can use the dollars I make doing shit I don't like to further my own goals. 18:30:39 yeah, beats working for a living 18:30:59 like today, I had to debug a complete fucking idiot's Perl for an hour and a half. 18:31:08 Well, I currently work for In-N-Out right now, because I can't land a more high-tech job. 18:31:16 I'm virtually unemployable, apparently. 18:31:20 and I was fine with it.. because I did what I said I was going to do, on time, and I think my clients like me. 18:31:42 cuz I try to be as pragmatic and objective as possible. 18:31:54 `I can do it this way, but I'm going to have to charge you more because of it.' 18:32:07 I tried that route too. 18:32:11 No customers. 18:32:20 So fuck'em. 18:32:38 * kc5tja is going to work for In-N-Out for the foreseeable future. That'll help put myself through school. 18:32:55 Meanwhile, I will also try and develop my own electronics kit business as well. 18:33:33 the industry wnats you to become a lego bricj that can read c and thats all 18:33:59 i dislike the current economic model 18:34:23 suprdupr: I CAN read C. Not only can I read C, I can also read C++, Objective-C, Forth, Pascal, Oberon, BASIC (what flavor would you like?), machine language (ditto here), Python, Perl, ...... 18:34:46 kc5tja: maybe it's the "..and thats all" that is the problem ;) 18:35:14 hefner: ? 18:35:27 suprdupr: that's not true.. the industry wants to make money. 18:35:43 if you can help them make money, they will like you. 18:36:01 kc5tja: just taking a stricter interpretation of suprdupr's statement which you were responding to 18:37:20 What else is there though? That's the thing. 18:37:37 Besides programming, there isn't much else when working in a development group. 18:37:44 I like to think that "IT" is the problem 18:38:08 (whatever the hell "IT" really means) 18:38:14 me too the whole conception is f**** 18:38:17 Information Technology 18:38:21 it should be about fun 18:38:27 haha 18:38:33 I do in fact know what it stands for.. =p 18:38:33 should be enjoyable 18:38:44 .. guys, it's all about making money. 18:38:48 it's not any harder than that. 18:39:04 Agreed with a7r; but my personal beef with the industry is the total and utter lack of team work. 18:39:05 there are modulations to that theme (e.g. politics), but it's the same story no matter what. 18:39:21 When I worked for Hifn, I got the distinct impression that I was footing the whole bill of development effort for my projects. 18:39:40 There were only a few times that I felt any kind of team work at all from my peers in my department. 18:39:52 THAT alone severely affects fun-factor and burn-out rate. 18:40:26 I guess that's yet another reason why I love extreme programming so much. If you're not part of the team, you're part of the problem, and it severely and adversely affects development efforts. 18:40:46 Progress in any project must (a) be measurable, and (b) be tangible. 18:40:57 In my last 'big' job, it was neither. 18:41:01 is it really possible to develop something as intertwined as software without teamwork? (or without doing it solo..) 18:41:13 hefner: Yes 18:41:42 It especially happens when you have a bunch of independent cells all working on their own little project, in total isolation and ignorance of what other cells are doing. 18:41:50 kc5tja: you should get more into a customer facing job, doing real-world tasks using electronics. 18:41:57 kc5tja: like food services control, or industrial control. 18:42:01 a7r: That's what I'm looking to do. 18:42:05 Well, not those industries. 18:42:15 I don't have too much experience in that area. 18:42:52 What I really would love to do, though, is research and find applications for Constantinesco torque converters. It sounds weird, but I *know* it can work on a bike. 18:43:03 I want to work with my hands. 18:43:17 I want to move to the auto industry, because I'm interested in control 18:43:18 The more tangible, the better. 18:43:27 kc5tja: become a concert pianist :) 18:43:38 CTCs would really work well with a rotary. :D 18:45:07 Hell, I think it'd be a neat business opportunity to try and retrofit existing vehicles as HEVs. 18:45:16 Including RX-7s. 18:45:26 i want to build air powered car with vlbengine.com (bourke engine) technology or convert existing cars 18:45:26 In fact, especially RX-7s. 18:45:28 werd. 18:45:32 cars* 18:46:13 I love the rotary, but 20 to 24MPG freeway is just on the borderline of being quite annoying. :) 18:47:32 my next big car project is converting my 13BT to propane 18:47:32 s/propane/LPG/ 18:47:32 very lean burns engines run at 20000rpm, they could work with cvt 18:47:32 i wonder about our current water conception too 18:47:38 i investigated water cells 18:48:42 and i found a french page 18:48:43 where a guy argues 18:48:43 kc5tja: so I'm designing a connector layout.. I think I'm going to go with one ground per analog in, and one digital ground for all 4 digital I/O lines.. what do you think? 18:48:43 that in 1839 a guy discovered that when giving electrons to water it transformed into a gas, and h2 and 02 could be merged in water and give 4 electrons back 18:48:43 he says its the principle of the fuel cell 18:49:37 suprdupr: It's been a while since I took chemistry. But adding energy to H2O to form H2 and O2 is at best a form of energy storage. One cannot actually create an excess of energy this way. 18:50:14 a7r: That depends. Is the information on those digital lines critical for the proper operation of the device? If so, I'd at least have a ground for each of those as well. 18:50:35 kc5tja: it's critical, but it's not highspeed at all. 18:50:51 and they'll have their own ground. 18:51:04 but only one shared between the. 18:51:05 m 18:51:15 a7r: Then you might want to consider line drivers and schmidt triggers to clean out any noise on the lines. 18:51:25 im not talking about overunity, just about basic conception of water, OH- and H+ are not so real for me anymore 18:51:27 nod. 18:51:56 they'll be like: switch is on, so power an LED.. that type of shit. 18:51:56 suprdupr: Yeah. It is the basic principle behind the H2-fuel cell (there are also hydrocarbon fuel cells, but they don't work as well yet). 18:53:25 a7r: Well, I'm just concerned about spikes and whatnot, that could potentially cause power supply surges (thus affecting other devices), or induction from the igniter coil magnetic fields or spark plug capacitive coupling, where the voltage on the line could exceed the Vcc of the chips. 18:53:40 Maybe voltage clamping with a set of zener diodes would be a better solution for your needs. 18:54:20 This way, any noise that does occur will be constrained to the supply rails, at most. :) 18:54:33 yah, I've got 5.1v zeners peppered around 18:54:45 Okay -- that'd be my only real concern then. 18:55:07 I need to pick up an o-scope, so I can do some real analysis of what is affecting what. 18:55:10 Definitely one ground per analog signal at least. 18:55:30 every molecule of water is missing 4 electrons, no wonder it forms clusters, recombine (10 power 13) times or so a second, etcc 18:55:39 Though for really critical analog stuff, I'd also consider using differential signalling for the analog stuff. 18:56:00 kc5tja: I could go differential, really. 18:56:17 suprdupr: Left to its own devices, a water molecule is fully balanced -- it has the proper amount of electrons. 18:57:17 * a7r takes a look at some existing harness designs. 18:57:37 suprdupr: But water is a polar molecule, because the oxygen atom is SO attractive of electrons that the hydrogen atoms are left *mostly* (but not always!) without electrons of their own. This is why water forms crystals when it freezes. 18:58:17 hrm. 18:58:24 these guys aren't even using separate grounds for analog ins. 19:32:22 see ya everyone! 19:32:31 --- quit: suprdupr ("bye, take care") 19:53:07 --- join: arke (~chris@ca-cmrilo-cuda1-c3b-66.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 19:54:01 * arke just got back from an interesting 3+ hours of work 20:03:35 What kind of work? 20:03:59 Man, I wish I could find some way of mathematically modeling the Constantinesco torque converter. :( 20:04:45 It seems i just lack the foundational knowledge. I can model it as a set of levers; but the problem is that there are three simultaneous equations, and four unknowns. Linear algebra is useless for that situation. 20:09:53 --- quit: andreou ("laters") 20:15:55 kc5tja: well, kc ... lemme have the four equations :) 20:16:24 kc5tja: gaussian method should work with 4 unknowns too if you do it multiple times 20:26:24 I don't have the equations on hand at the moment. I'd have to dig through my notebooks. 20:27:06 Also, I'm familiar with Gaussian method (at least I think I am), and that won't work no matter how many times you reduce the equations. 20:27:19 oh, itll work 20:27:20 :) 20:27:26 If you have four unknowns, you must also have four equations to secure its value. 20:27:40 Otherwise, you'll end up with a variable term in the results of the three equations. 20:31:50 says who? 20:31:50 :) 20:32:04 if you have, lets say, variables a b c d 20:32:08 in 3 equations 20:32:48 by double elimination, youll get 2 equations, 3 vars each 20:32:50 and 20:32:53 oh 20:32:54 haha 20:32:58 i see where youre getting at 20:34:38 :) 20:35:02 What I really need to do is build a few test models, and collect data to determine that fourth variable. 20:35:22 I suspect it depends on a number of environmental factors, like mass, placement of the pendulum bob, etc. 20:35:53 I have zero clue how Constantinesco could design one entirely on paper before building his first model (which worked well within acceptable error limits first time!). 20:36:00 It just blows my mind. 20:37:13 * kc5tja was reading up on the Chrysler gas-turbine powered cars. 20:38:33 Man . . . I would kill to have a gas-turbine powered car that had 415 ft-lbs of torque at 0 RPM (who needs a transmission?! Besides, a turbine is basically a torque converter on its own anyway) with a 130HP (numbers not available for their 200HP version), and 22 miles to the gallon freeway (just 2MPG worse than my rotary!). 20:38:56 It'd be great for commuting to college and back. :D 20:39:43 :) 20:41:15 Literally -- it didn't have a transmission in it. 20:41:22 0.0 20:41:26 ack? 20:41:34 The "gear selector" that the driver used had "Forward, Neutral, and Reverse." That's it. 20:41:41 0.0- 20:41:45 how the hell does it work? 20:41:49 automated CVT? 20:41:51 No. 20:42:06 The gas turbine engine has three turbines in it. 20:42:21 The first turbine is the compressor, and the second one is called an idler turbine. 20:42:49 The compressor causes intake air to get compressed before it enters the combustion chamber, where it's ignited with fuel, thus causing a hot rush of air to blow past the idler turbine. 20:43:07 (think of setting the output of a hairspray can on fire with a match -- pretty much *exactly* what goes on inside a gas turbine engine.) 20:43:47 The idler turbine takes this hot, fast-moving air and spins the compressor with it (the compressor and idler are on a single shaft). 20:44:11 But, not all the energy (by design) is used by the idler turbine. Much of it is left over for use by the third turbine, which just sits on its own shaft, like a pinwheel. 20:44:20 (literally, a pinwheel IS a turbine. 20:45:00 Depending on which direction you blow the hot gas on the final, or drive, turbine, you can get it to spin in either direction. 20:45:50 Remember that turbines are just tiny, high-speed windmills. :D 20:46:02 INTERESTINGT 20:46:07 ack, sorry, pygmy :) 20:46:16 Anyway, the turbines spin at 40,000+ RPM under full throttle. 20:46:34 At those rates of speed, the engine will develop only a few ft-lbs of torque. 20:46:56 So the engine includes a built-in 10:1 gear-down. That multiplies the torque while reducing the speed of the output shaft by a factor of ten. 20:47:26 Thus, at full throttle (but 0 RPM), the engine is producing 415 ft-lbs of torque at 0 RPM, or 0 ft-lbs of torque at 4000 RPM. 20:47:34 (or very close to it) 20:51:39 * XeF4 has questions for kc5 that have nothing to do with turbines 20:52:07 sure 20:52:49 :P 20:52:54 how can one estimate the current from a single loop of wire in an alternating magnetic field 20:52:57 c4th doesnt run on my computer.... :( 20:53:32 If I had my physics book available to me, I'd be able to answer that question. 20:53:46 heres a chemistry question: 20:53:47 urf 20:53:54 balance the following redox equation: 20:54:06 * kc5tja definitely didn't expect to get asked that question. :D 20:55:15 2CO(2) - KMnO(4) --> KCO + Mn(OH)(2) 20:55:17 lol 20:55:19 XeF4: I do know, however, that the relationship between magnetic field strength and the current thus induced in the loop is linear, provided neither the wire nor magnetic field source is mobile with respect to each other. 20:55:38 kc5: basically I have a project that needs to run unattended (i.e. no changing of batteries) where there is a magnetic field(hinthint) I hope to use for power 20:55:39 we did that for .. uum .. 4 weeks in a class that is supposed to be the equivalent of college level 20:58:52 kc5: it is linear, so I would think this would be a 1/2:1 transformer, but a single loop intersects such a small portion of the field 20:58:59 or am I thinking about this wrong? 20:59:54 If the loop was a BIG loop, it'd work fairly good. :) 21:00:00 Like, several meters in diameter. :D 21:00:27 But realistically speaking, a pick-up coil like that will want to have many, many turns, and you'll probably want to wind it around a ferrite core as well. 21:01:29 right, but many turns multiplies the voltage, which is already dangerously high 21:02:19 * MysticOne explodes 21:02:45 * kc5tja wipes the goo off himself. 21:02:51 hehehe 21:02:57 * arke gets a rag and starts wiping up the blood and guts from himself and around him 21:03:03 kc5tja: ACK!! you beat me!! 21:03:09 kc5tja: but mine was better !1 Ha! 21:03:17 (in a ghost like voice) sup? 21:03:19 kc5: basically there is a 400KV line in *just* the right place for powering a project 21:03:50 * arke calls 1-800-NOGHOST 21:03:56 the phase cancelling makes it useless from ground level and I am *not* coimbing to within a few metres of the cable, so I'm limited to what I can install with a line thrower+some luck 21:04:05 XeF4: I'm wondering if a capacitive coupling wouldn't be better, with voltages that high. 21:04:28 Are you trying to leech power from a high-tension wire or something? 21:04:45 If so, then I disavow any knowledge of what you're trying to do, and hold zero responsibility for your safety or property damage. :) 21:05:03 I am trying to leech power from a high-tension wire, yes 21:05:36 I thought about capacitive coupling, but it is awfully cumbersome+dangerous 21:08:23 the poles are fork-shaped with a line over the centre of the "Y" so I wonder if one couldn't just hoist a wire loop up there 21:08:45 (asuming it wouldn't just start arcing against the tower) 21:08:59 I really don't know. 21:10:04 at least I wouldn't *expect* any electric shocks through 50m of plastic rope =) 21:14:38 of course if I really believed that, I would just throw the rope over the line itself :\ 21:15:32 --- quit: ianP (Connection timed out) 21:18:02 the right way to test this would be throw the rope over the line itself far from any poles and slowly hoist the coil up while taking measurements 21:18:29 but I'm worried that in the course of this (rather long) process the authorities will show up 21:19:25 Heheh 21:20:28 400kV is a lot of voltage. Personally, I'm not in favor of this endeavor. 21:20:28 Purely from a safety perspective. 21:25:21 noted. there are also 110kV lines nearby, but that isn't a whole lot better 21:25:33 :P 21:26:05 (except that there is 1 conductor per phase instead of 4 so less chance of mis-aiming accidents with the line throwing) 21:26:47 Why not use a multi-turn coil with ferrite core, but on the ground, instead of up in the air? 21:27:43 because the phase cancelling makes the required coil really huge 21:27:55 Phase cancelling? From what? 21:27:55 since you're roughly equidistant from each phase 21:28:00 Oh, you mean from all three phases? 21:28:06 yes 21:29:00 Well, I figure if they have enough power to light a 20W flourescent at ground level, I figured it would be possible to harness that via magnetic coupling too. 21:29:43 I've never seen that done withere the fluorescent tube fully lights up 21:29:49 just glows 21:31:16 :) 21:33:04 I've never tried such an experiment myself, but I've seen pictures where you could read by the light. :D 21:33:20 I figured it was pretty well accepted that the light gets sufficient power to be rather bright. 21:33:23 --- quit: pengangguran () 21:33:32 (maybe not at full brightness, but a substantial fraction of it) 21:34:19 you can read bya 5mW LED, though 21:35:05 or a glow-in-the-dark sticker held close enough to the page 21:35:12 so that can be quite a tiny fraction 21:37:02 5mW won't even make that 20W flourescent glow though. 21:39:10 5mW across the terminals won't, but I'm not sure how that trick works, if it is from capacitive coupling with the phosphor, a few mW might 21:40:07 Don't know. 21:40:37 --- join: ianP (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 21:41:31 hm, I'll just have to research more and maybe try it 21:41:55 if it works , great; if it kills me, I have something to sternly tell my children to never do 21:42:12 Heh 21:42:23 Well, just be careful. 21:42:42 kV-level stuff aren't toys. 21:43:46 --- quit: rpc ("leaving") 21:44:44 of course not 21:45:34 even so, I'm more afraid of attracting unwanted attention than of injury/death 22:05:22 --- join: usa (~usa@adsl-64-142-9-188.sonic.net) joined #forth 22:21:59 --- quit: Sonarman ("Lost terminal") 22:31:46 --- quit: arke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:40:05 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:40:20 re ! 22:40:22 Howdy 22:40:34 nice :)) 22:41:06 * kc5tja was asked for step-by-step instructions on how to produce my Tesla disc turbine. 22:41:19 So I'm going to make another one, step by step, with pictures and descriptive text, and put it on a website. 22:41:31 With sufficient interest, I might even offer it as a kit for my kit business. 22:42:01 ^))) 22:42:11 * Serg_Penguin does not even know what is Tesla turbine 22:42:30 You know what a regular turbine is, right? 22:42:55 sure 22:43:10 * kc5tja must note a distinction: not a turbine engine, but just the turbine itself. 22:43:48 A Tesla turbine is a turbine which has no blades. Instead, it has a stack of discs, spaced at around 800um or so for use with compressed air or hot gas. 22:44:17 and how does it spin ? 22:45:10 disks are stacked coaxially like in HDD or not ? 22:45:13 When you blow onto the periphery of the disc pack (called "runners"), a combination of Coanda effect and viscous drag cause the discs to spin with the moving air. 22:45:19 yes, coaxially. 22:46:10 how do i blow - along axis or by tangent ? 22:46:17 Tangentially. 22:46:35 There are holes hear the hub of the disk pack to allow the gas to exhaust. 22:46:54 ?? hub of the disk pack 22:46:55 So when placed inside a proper rotor housing, the gas spirals from outside in. 22:47:04 ok 22:47:29 what T and/or V of gas does it take to work ? 22:47:49 Whatever you want. 22:48:01 Like any turbine, you can build them for high or low temperatures, pressures, etc. 22:48:19 My paper turbines are obviously built for compressed air at relatively low pressures. 22:48:51 * kc5tja has plans for building a pop-pop water pulse jet engine and coupling it to a water Tesla turbine to produce shaft power. 22:48:58 If it works, it'll be my first true engine 22:49:22 Everything I've made up to this point has been mere motors. 22:50:07 But the motors are fun toys to build too. 22:50:25 i had an idea 22:51:04 automatic souap bubble launcher 22:51:53 powered by wind rotor, fed by rain water (and night condensate ?) 22:52:06 the only consumable is piece of soap 22:52:52 put it on hi roof and see how all ze district is full of nice bubbles 22:53:22 the only trubble is how to make a blowframe 22:55:49 An interesting experiment. 23:01:22 --- part: usa left #forth 23:11:41 it also may be a nasty prank, if we put a windpowered noicemaker in a hardly accessible place 23:12:06 the only way to get rid of howling ghost ;)) will be to shoot it from sniper rifle 23:12:10 Like the old-fashioned fire truck sirens in this country. :) 23:18:16 here old folks remember bombing alarm sirens from WW2, same design but mighter, took few strong man to power 23:18:29 * kc5tja nods 23:18:41 Well, I have to get going. 23:18:54 I have work tomorrow. 23:19:14 ok 23:19:19 good nite 23:19:22 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth 23:19:24 'night. :) 23:19:27 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.10.21