00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.19
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14:33:16 --- log: started forth/03.10.19
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14:33:16 --- topic: 'where people get together to talk about CVT, stirling engines, tesla turbines, data structure and algorithm design, and occasionally Forth'
14:33:16 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Wed Oct 15 21:47:35 2003]
14:33:16 --- names: list (clog Sonarman arke_ fridge arke oo_ @I440r TreyB skylan mur onetom MysticOne rpc @ChanServ Robert XeF4 ianP)
14:51:43 --- join: andreou (~tautology@peak-ppp7.ee.teiath.gr) joined #forth
15:01:02 <oo_>     Type ./isforth and you should get a nice signon message. 
15:01:13 <oo_> ihme:/home/o/isforth-1.13b# ./isforth 
15:01:14 <oo_> Segmentation fault
15:02:56 <I440r> erm
15:03:15 <I440r> are you in the linux shell or in a x term ?
15:03:33 <andreou> heh the isforth coder sucks :*
15:03:35 <andreou> :)
15:03:41 <oo_> linux shell
15:03:44 <oo_> via ssh
15:03:47 <rpc> *snicker*
15:03:47 <I440r> try export TERM=Linux
15:04:00 <I440r> if that segfaults lie and say export TERM=Eterm
15:04:02 <I440r> :)
15:04:55 <oo_> ok, thanks.
15:04:58 <I440r> :)
15:05:04 <I440r> your ssh client sucks :P
15:06:02 <rpc> I440r: does isforth have complex numbers? i thought i remembered it having them..
15:06:13 <oo_> well, this is the first time a program segfaults on me because TERM is ansi or vt100 or something
15:07:11 <I440r> no complex numbers
15:07:14 <I440r> no floating point
15:07:18 <I440r> not till i have an assembler
15:07:32 <rpc> kk, i must've been thinking of something else
15:08:33 <I440r> its a bug ihave to deal with, still not sure how to
15:08:53 <I440r> its not realy MY bug
15:09:02 <I440r> its a fuckup in the ansi terminfo file
15:09:04 <rpc> what is the bug?
15:09:05 <I440r> or the vt100
15:09:05 <rpc> ahh
15:09:38 <oo_> ok
15:09:46 <I440r> the bug is that the terminfo database has its heas sutffed so far up its ass it will NEVER see the light of day
15:10:24 <oo_> this is just a somewhat default debian installation.
15:10:38 <I440r> its not debians fault terminfo is fucked
15:10:57 <oo_> yeh..
15:11:08 <oo_> btw, how is the freebsd version going?
15:11:26 <I440r> not
15:11:26 <oo_> my more powerful puter is running freebsd..
15:12:14 <oo_> and the most powerful is running on a ppc processor
15:12:14 <rpc> i wish i had the time to help out with a bsd port
15:13:26 <I440r> heh me 2
15:13:31 <I440r> not a trivial port
15:14:34 <rpc> what are the big issues, have you investigated it much?
15:15:06 <I440r> syscalls
15:15:16 <I440r> ther are syscalls im using that are LINUX specific
15:15:25 <rpc> ahh
15:15:31 <I440r> will have to get isforth running in linux emulation mode
15:15:40 <I440r> can do that if i fix the elf header i think
15:15:44 <I440r> i THINK
15:19:21 <oo_> has anyone implemented forth in a very high level language? (smalltalk/ruby/python...)
15:19:37 <I440r> only in c and that doesnt count :)
15:19:42 <I440r> not me tho
15:19:53 <oo_> c is just a shitty macro-assembler :)
15:20:04 <andreou> haha
15:20:58 <rpc> i've seen a very minimal forth in python
15:21:53 <oo_> i have been playing with the idea of a ruby-based forth..
15:22:22 <rpc> you like japython? ;)
15:22:22 <oo_> it would be very slow, but there would be a lot of exotic features :)
15:22:33 <oo_> japython?
15:22:41 <rpc> hehe, i mean ruby
15:22:49 <oo_> ruby is quite nice
15:22:54 <rpc> it looks interesting
15:23:11 <oo_> ruby is a very.... smooth experience.
15:23:17 <andreou> rpc in hack.org/mc is a forth vm disguised as c preprocessor defs
15:23:28 <rpc> sweet
15:23:45 <rpc> my friend found a forth written in bash
15:23:47 <rpc> and one in awk i think
15:24:16 <oo_> uh
15:24:55 <andreou> well i sometimes use one in my obp :)
15:25:26 <oo_> a simple forth in ruby could be as small as 100 lines of code, i think..
15:25:56 <oo_> but ruby ported to forth would be more fun :)
15:26:06 <rpc> my sparc typically sits in ofw :)
15:26:20 <andreou> hah
15:27:03 <I440r> bashforth is by a guy who comes in here
15:27:18 <I440r> one of the old timers in here :)
15:27:30 <I440r> but he has so many nicks i cant remember what is current one is :/
15:27:50 <I440r> i was going to do a forth in bash and then a bash interpreter in forth
15:27:54 <I440r> and have them do battle :)
15:28:12 <rpc> hehe
15:30:09 <oo_> there are a lot of stuff written in c that should be forthed.
15:30:31 <oo_> just to c the difference :)
15:31:57 <oo_> graphics and sound stuff at least.
15:32:06 <oo_> windowing stuff too
15:33:20 <oo_> in pforth that would be easy, but forth written in c... wull..
15:33:22 <oo_> well..
15:34:37 <rpc> yeah, i'd like to start doing some plotting stuff in forth
15:34:50 <oo_> or games :)
15:35:01 <oo_> a 3d engine would be cool :)
15:35:53 <I440r> its on my todo list
15:36:40 <oo_> a line editor should be too :)
15:38:19 <I440r> it is
15:38:23 <I440r> and command history
15:38:31 <I440r> those are higre up on the todo list
15:39:06 <oo_> isforth seems quite solid now.. :)
15:39:21 <oo_> 'snappy'
15:40:31 <I440r> glad u think so :)
15:40:38 <I440r> still much to do
15:42:24 <oo_> yeah, and x86 assembly is not one of the quickest ways to implement software :)
15:42:58 <andreou> gtg, beh
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15:43:13 <I440r> nor is it one of the slowest
15:43:25 <I440r> 99% of my devel is in forth atm in isforth
15:43:30 <I440r> except ive not toucned it in a month or 2
15:43:46 <oo_> ok
15:43:58 <I440r> the kernel is mostly stable now, very few edits there
15:47:26 <oo_> is it possible to embed asm in isforth?
15:48:34 <oo_> like.. extra features implemented in forth, using just the needed asm for features not implementable otherwise?
15:52:53 <oo_> as in a gfx lib, you could load an forth module that is written mostly in forth, but using asm hooks to do the hardware/os stuff?
15:57:04 <I440r> not yet
15:57:15 <I440r> need to write the assembler
15:57:56 <I440r> thats on yhe todo too
15:57:57 <oo_> should that be top priority, if it'd speed up the development on non-essential features?
15:58:16 <I440r> it is high up but most forth assemblers are backwards
15:58:17 <I440r> mine wont be
15:58:24 <I440r> and writing it is going to be a bitch
15:58:47 <oo_> probably, yes..
15:59:49 <oo_> how about a similar approach as colorforth?
15:59:59 <oo_> http://www.colorforth.com/forth.html
16:00:01 <I440r> err i dont know how he did it
16:00:18 <I440r> i want isforths assembler to be ASSEMBLER
16:00:19 <I440r> not forth
16:00:26 <I440r> 5 # eax mov is fucked
16:00:28 <I440r> i hate that shit
16:00:34 <oo_> yeah :)
16:00:59 <I440r> my assembler must be able to take the EXISTING kernel sources with only MINOR edits
16:01:26 <rpc> gforth's assembler is a nightmare
16:01:52 <I440r> i have permission to use that i think - but i cant get my head arround it
16:01:55 <oo_> hm.. how about making assembler calls in some kind of quotes?
16:02:11 <I440r> ?
16:02:12 <I440r> no
16:02:17 <I440r> thats NOT intel syntax
16:02:20 <oo_> in the same way as strings .{ nop nop nop }
16:02:20 <I440r> i told you
16:02:22 <I440r> MINIMAL edits
16:02:33 <I440r> i.e. injecting a space here or there
16:02:36 <I440r> NOTHING else
16:02:37 <I440r> period
16:02:44 <oo_> ok
16:04:43 <I440r> thats why it doesnt exist yet
16:04:49 <I440r> because i wont accept anything less than that
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16:15:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
16:22:30 <I440r> hi
16:22:35 * I440r has a cold :/
16:22:58 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ianP...aww, sorry t' hear that
16:32:02 * TheBlueWizard realizes he picked the wrong guy to greet :(
16:32:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r
16:39:32 <oo_> i/o speed isn't one of isforth's strengths? i just benchmarked it against ruby.. ''' : loopez 0 do i ." linenum: " . cr loop ; '''  vs. ''' def loopez(a) a.times {|i|puts "linenum: #{i}"} end '''
16:39:44 <I440r> lol
16:40:06 <I440r> thers a minor problem with cash hits :P
16:40:11 <I440r> i have code and data in the same pages
16:40:17 <I440r> which bothers me not one iota
16:40:28 <oo_> ruby was 9.7 secs vs 37.8 secs with isforth... 200000 lines :)
16:40:40 <TheBlueWizard> *cache* hits :)
16:41:31 <I440r> yes i know
16:41:36 <I440r> i was being lazy
16:41:51 <TheBlueWizard> or itching for cash ;)
16:41:52 <I440r> isforth does fast file loading during compile
16:42:02 <I440r> if you read one char at a time your being stupid anyway
16:42:18 <I440r> isforth memory maps each file it is compiling
16:42:41 <I440r> charcter I/O is guaranteed to be slow :/
16:43:12 <oo_> i meant:    200000 loopez      vs:  loopez 200000
16:43:26 <oo_> both directed to /dev/null
16:43:45 <I440r> oh well you cant compare apples to oranges
16:44:24 <oo_> well.. that was just a test.
16:44:49 <I440r> try : test 0 beging 1+ dup 20000 = until drop ;
16:45:01 <I440r> add a 0 or 2 in there :)
16:45:07 <I440r> 2000000000000000 etc
16:45:08 <I440r> lol
16:45:25 <TheBlueWizard> if someone has a hankering to improve isforth, s/he is welcome to hack isforth...it's GPL'd (in a nonviral style)
16:45:35 <I440r> :)
16:45:43 <I440r> it would require a complete rewrite of the core
16:45:52 <I440r> and would mean making it indirect threaded
16:45:56 <TheBlueWizard> lots of work then :)
16:46:06 <I440r> might as well just start your own forth from scratch heh
16:46:14 <TheBlueWizard> can't be direct threaded? hmm
16:46:28 <I440r> not if you keep code and data in seperate memory spaces
16:46:30 <I440r> isforth doesnt
16:46:37 <I440r> a variable in isforth is
16:46:41 <I440r>  call dovariable
16:46:45 <I440r>  dd variables-value
16:46:51 <I440r> it would need to be
16:46:53 <I440r> call dovariable
16:46:59 <I440r>  dd pointer-to-variables-value
16:47:12 <I440r> and even THAT has the same problem
16:47:16 <I440r> im not sure how to fix this
16:47:24 <I440r> that pointer is data too
16:47:26 <I440r> not code
16:47:33 <I440r> could be a 
16:47:40 <I440r> move eax, offset variables-address
16:47:43 <I440r>  jmp dovariable
16:47:54 <I440r> but thats silly
16:48:25 <TheBlueWizard> obviously it would require a more intelligent compiler
16:52:14 <I440r> erm you callin isforth stoopid ??? :)
16:52:32 <I440r> it might require a more inteligent compiler WRITEr :P
16:52:39 <I440r> intelLigent
16:54:19 <TheBlueWizard> I am not calling isforth stupid at all...it just has its own advantages and disadvantages
16:55:10 * TheBlueWizard knows how touchy I440r can be with his own baby ;)
16:56:34 <I440r> hehe
16:57:56 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> TBW-afk
16:58:05 <oo_> sorry, ruby iteration 0.054 secs, isforth 30.308 secs... (200000000 iterations)
16:58:44 <oo_> '''def test() 200000000.times {|i|} end
16:59:17 <oo_> ''': test 0 begin 1+ dup 200000000 = until drop ;
17:00:30 <I440r> :)
17:00:37 <I440r> well fine :P
17:00:41 <oo_> oops, sorry again.. ruby didn't actually run at all..
17:00:47 <I440r> i know isforth isnt the fastest :)
17:00:53 <I440r> lol
17:00:55 <oo_> so.. i'm still waiting for the real result.. :)
17:01:35 <oo_> isforth is a lot faster in calulations
17:02:47 <oo_> i think some kind of buffering would speed up raw i/o
17:03:36 <oo_> like.. 0.02secs, cr or 512 bytes or something... whichever comes first
17:03:57 <oo_> mostly output..
17:08:24 <oo_> ruby iteration: 7m43.085sec =P
17:11:18 <I440r> it would :)
17:11:21 <I440r> try this
17:11:34 <I440r> ./isforth -fload help/examples/window.f
17:11:39 <I440r> tell me that i/o is slow
17:12:13 <oo_> i already tried.. not too slow..
17:12:32 <I440r> even ncurses would be hard pressed to do what im doing there
17:12:44 <I440r> not even sure its possible in ncurses
17:13:31 <oo_> just a sec.. i think i should try it on the console
17:15:57 <I440r> lol
17:16:04 <I440r> its even quite fast over an ssh
17:16:10 <I440r> but definatly slower
17:16:33 --- nick: TBW-afk -> TheBlueWizard
17:16:43 <oo_> it's a bit buggy on a standard linux console..
17:16:49 <I440r> shouldnt be
17:16:52 <I440r> oh
17:17:00 <I440r> you need a 100 by 35 console lol
17:17:02 <I440r> i need to fix that :P
17:17:11 <I440r> thats low on the todo list heh
17:17:17 <oo_> yeah :)
17:17:27 <oo_> good work anyway :)
17:17:40 <I440r> i just need to make the windows fit the console size
17:17:42 <I440r> is all
17:18:00 <I440r> startx and run a e/xterm/rxvt/wterm etc
17:18:12 <I440r> make the term window 100 by 36 or something
17:18:18 <I440r> and then run it
17:18:29 <oo_> i was thinking that a cross-assembler could be quite easy to implement in ruby..
17:18:34 <I440r> Eterm is actually almost twice as fast as the linux termainal
17:18:47 <I440r> ive written an 8051 cross assembler
17:18:52 <I440r> but thats unpublished :)
17:18:54 <oo_> i don't run X11 on my linux box.. FreeBSD is for that stuff
17:19:35 <I440r> heh
17:19:36 <oo_> and macosx is for everything else :)
17:19:41 <I440r> lol
17:19:43 <I440r> weener
17:19:48 <TheBlueWizard> lol
17:20:06 <oo_> i was thinking of a x86 -> ppc cross-assembler..
17:20:46 <I440r> that would be ok :)
17:21:10 <oo_> the other way around could be a bit tricky, because ppc has a lot of registers
17:30:50 <oo_> oh well.. i'll get some sleep now..
17:32:30 <TheBlueWizard> heh
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17:49:51 <kc5tja> hwody
17:49:54 <kc5tja> howdy even
17:50:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
17:54:22 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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17:55:27 <arke> hey kc5tja!!!
17:55:39 <kc5tja> greets
18:12:58 * arke is away: Halo
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19:29:51 <I440r> who was alekos ?
19:29:59 <I440r> i didnt even see that nick in here lol
19:33:38 <kc5tja> I don't know.
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22:00:57 * arke is away: sleep ... until tomorrow ... C_Rdd, Memoserv me!
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22:28:08 <kc5tja> Off to bed for me.
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