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04:14:32 <snowrichard> morning
04:15:09 <snowrichard> have done a real application as a test of my michael language some new files released at http://veteransinaction.org/files
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07:05:27 * arke is back (gone 00:04:56)
07:05:59 * arke is away: zZzZZzZzZzZzZ
07:06:23 * arke is away: school
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10:36:45 <mur> ups wrong button :D
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18:23:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:23:34 <kc5tja> Oy.  :)
18:23:53 <TheBlueWizard> "Oy"? hmm....
18:23:59 <kc5tja> ?
18:24:02 <kc5tja> Did I say something wrong?
18:24:40 <TheBlueWizard> that's a typical Yiddish word...often appearing in the phrase "Oy vey!"
18:24:50 <kc5tja> Ahh
18:24:53 * kc5tja doesn't know Yiddish.
18:25:22 * TheBlueWizard knows a few Yiddish words, and knows kc5tja *does* know some of them as well
18:25:42 <kc5tja> Well, I've heard of Oy Vey, but I don't know what Oy means in isolation.
18:25:54 <TheBlueWizard> example: schlepp, nosh, chutzpah, ...
18:25:56 <kc5tja> Nor what Vey means in isolation.
18:26:05 <kc5tja> Nope, never heard of schlepp nor nosh before.
18:26:09 <kc5tja> Chutzpah I've heard of.
18:26:44 <TheBlueWizard> nosh means light snack (verb)...like "I noshed on those peanuts today"
18:27:44 <TheBlueWizard> schlepp means arduous trek...like, "I schlepped by foot all the way to the top of Murder Hill just so I can sled down that dangerous snowy slope"
18:28:10 <TheBlueWizard> and I'm pretty sure you know what chutzpah is :)
18:28:34 <kc5tja> Half intestinal fortitude, half reproductive organ.  :)
18:29:19 <TheBlueWizard> lol...actually, it means a lot of guts, outrageous boldness, lots of nerve, whatever
18:29:50 <kc5tja> Well, I meant "reproductive organs" in the sense that, "You've got a lot of chutzpah to go up to that guy and kick his kneecap in."
18:29:50 <kc5tja> ;D
18:30:04 <TheBlueWizard> there are numerous Yiddish words in today's English...Yiddish is a rich language, full of colorful words
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18:30:28 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!! :)
18:30:36 <I440r> hi :)
18:31:59 <TheBlueWizard> how's life? (I taught kc5tja a tiny bit of Yiddish :)
18:32:05 <kc5tja> Hehe :)
18:32:59 <I440r> lol i know one word
18:33:01 <I440r> nebbish!
18:33:04 <I440r> its a GOOD word!
18:33:12 <I440r> it describes alot of people
18:33:13 <kc5tja> wtf is nebbish?
18:33:19 * TheBlueWizard doesn't know that one
18:33:21 <I440r> a nebbish is a non-entity
18:33:23 <I440r> or...
18:33:30 <kc5tja> Oh, I know Schmuck too!  THAT also describes a lot of people!  :)
18:33:38 <I440r> the kind of person who when they walk into a room makes it seem like your best friend just walked out
18:33:44 <kc5tja> Like some of the customers I had to deal with today at work.'
18:33:51 <I440r> or when they walk into the room make it feel like your best friend just walked in
18:34:06 <TheBlueWizard> lol....I was tempted to mention "shmuck", but it is pretty derogatory
18:34:12 <kc5tja> So Nebbish is charismatic then.
18:34:29 <I440r> negativly :)
18:34:49 <kc5tja> Well, Hitler was charismatic too -- doesn't matter if it's positive or negative.
18:34:51 <kc5tja> :)
18:35:22 <I440r> lol
18:35:36 <I440r> this is specifically negativly charasmatic
18:35:45 <I440r> hitlers charisma drew people towards him
18:35:51 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...I learned about charisma stuff from the D&D book (1st edition)  :)
18:35:52 <I440r> a nebbish doesnt have that effectg
18:36:01 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Heheh :)
18:36:06 <I440r> lol
18:38:13 <TheBlueWizard> and that book did mention Hitler as a classic example that charisma doesn't necessarily mean good or handsome/beautiful (though certainly these can play some role...)
18:38:25 * kc5tja nods
18:38:49 <kc5tja> So can you actually communicate anything in Yiddish, besides racial or ethnic slurs?
18:38:50 <kc5tja> :)
18:40:08 <TheBlueWizard> as a series of epithets? probably yeah...
18:40:11 <Sonarman> Leo Brodie's "The Joys of Yiddish" is a nice book
18:40:21 <TheBlueWizard> though I would have to think hard :)
18:40:22 <Sonarman> i mean, Leo Rosten :)
18:40:35 <Sonarman> s/nice/funny
18:40:38 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
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18:43:23 <arke> y0 d00dz0r
18:43:29 <arke> z
18:43:47 <kc5tja> re arke
18:43:55 <arke> taking the psat tomorrow ....
18:44:16 <kc5tja> Good Luck
18:44:26 <TheBlueWizard> hiya arke
18:44:39 <TheBlueWizard> and good luck to you too
18:45:41 <I440r> psat?
18:46:13 <arke> PSAT = Preliminary SAT
18:46:54 <arke> kc5tja: i found the encryption thingy.
18:47:01 <arke> kc5tja: i still had an offline cache :)
18:47:16 <kc5tja> Was this the hashing thing we were talking about yesterday?
18:47:24 <arke> kc5tja: it converts a string to a long integer
18:49:04 <I440r> oh
18:49:06 <TheBlueWizard> of some interest: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/920302_Oy_Vay.html
18:49:06 <I440r> cool :)
18:49:12 <I440r> get 100% or ill beat you up!
18:53:58 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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19:34:17 <arke> y0 d00dz0rz
19:34:33 <kc5tja> re arke -- again.  :)
19:34:52 <arke> :)
19:34:56 * arke looks at BeOS
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19:40:36 <kc5tja> re thin
19:40:45 <thin> hi
19:40:46 <arke> y0 thin
19:42:59 <I440r> thin!
19:43:10 <I440r> guess chuck cant make it eh kc ?
19:43:15 <arke> :(
19:43:20 <arke> its been like 3 weeks or so..
19:43:31 <kc5tja> Chuck has not replied to me on this particular topic.
19:43:37 <kc5tja> I'm assuming the bet is off.
19:43:44 <I440r> for now at least
19:43:58 <I440r> i hope its not indicative of something being wrong 
19:44:11 <kc5tja> I do know that he is working, though.  The 25X is all grown up now.  :)
19:44:26 <I440r> :)
19:44:38 <I440r> if i win the lottery he will be doing a production run :P
19:44:40 <I440r> hmmm
19:44:43 <kc5tja> heh
19:44:46 <I440r> ya think i should buy a ticket ?
19:44:51 <arke> kc5tja: how many characters are legal in a forth word? as in, not the length, but the number of characters that are legal within one.
19:44:54 <thin> go for it i440r
19:44:55 <kc5tja> That is a question only you can answer.
19:45:08 <thin> personally i'll never buy a lottery ticket
19:45:09 <kc5tja> arke: How many do you want?
19:45:34 <kc5tja> arke: For file sources, it can be the whole file.  For blocks, 1020 characters (to make room for the : and ;, plus surrounding spaces)
19:45:36 <arke> well, im trying to make a guess at how many chars one can put into 32 bits with an average word.
19:45:44 <arke> noon
19:45:45 <arke>  noo noo
19:45:55 <thin> you can put in 200 chars into 32 bits with an average word
19:46:10 <arke> i meant the amount of characters that are legal in a forth words
19:46:13 <kc5tja> <arke> as in, not the length, but the number of characters that are legal within one.
19:46:21 <arke> like t or a would be legal, but space would not.
19:46:37 <kc5tja> arke: Ahh.  You're asking for what the valid character set is?
19:46:39 <thin> space can be legal if you want
19:46:47 <arke> yeah
19:47:08 <kc5tja> The whole character set, minus white-space.
19:47:16 <arke> 0.0
19:47:19 <arke> even NULL??
19:47:25 <kc5tja> Yes.  Technically.  :)
19:47:36 <kc5tja> (if you could enter it at the keyboard, or represent it in source, it is legal)
19:47:44 <kc5tja> But NULL is considered whitespace.
19:47:50 <kc5tja> (by most implementations)
19:48:10 <thin> minus enter-key
19:49:50 <kc5tja> ??
19:50:32 <I440r> enter is white space too
19:50:45 <I440r> cr lf tab bl null - usually considered white space
19:51:09 <thin> whups, my bad
19:52:00 <kc5tja> Basically, here's a good rule of thumb: DUP $20 < IF It's-White-Space ELSE It's-Valid THEN  :D
19:52:25 <I440r> :)
19:52:31 <arke> bah.
19:52:44 <I440r> erm you mean dup $21 <
19:52:55 <kc5tja> Oops, you're right.  :)
19:53:02 <arke> how about 33-127?
19:53:08 <kc5tja> arke: ALL valid.
19:53:18 <kc5tja> If it can be typed on the keyboard, it's valid.
19:53:18 <arke> yes, but how about make that the range?
19:53:26 <arke> the lesser the range, the more chars
19:53:40 <kc5tja> Well, it's ultimately up to you as the Forth author.
19:53:50 <arke> kc5tja: whats your ideA?
19:53:59 <kc5tja> E.g., Chuck Moore restricts his character set severely in ColorForth to less than 48 characters.
19:54:14 * kc5tja is going to be an ASCII-compliant Forth system, so I'm going to allow 33-127.
19:54:28 <arke> 33-127 ONLY?
19:54:39 <arke> because if so, then the thing i have is right for you (likely)
19:55:02 <kc5tja> Well, if someone wants to use 192-255 for their extended character set or something, then I can't stop them.
19:55:18 <arke> hrm
19:55:22 <kc5tja> Basically, $21-$7F, $A0-$FF
19:55:30 <arke> so allow 33-127 and 192-255 ????
19:55:35 <kc5tja> $00-$20 and $80-$9F are considered white-space.
19:55:39 <kc5tja> 160-255 (sorry)
19:55:48 <arke> ok
19:55:54 <arke> thats good :)
19:55:58 <arke> hrm
19:56:10 <kc5tja> And that's all that's needed to support UTF-8 too.
19:56:13 * arke whips out ti-83
19:56:15 <kc5tja> (IIRC)
19:56:19 <thin> no hp48? :(
19:56:30 <arke> lol
19:56:38 <thin> well i'm outta here
19:56:39 <thin> laters
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19:56:43 <I440r> i want one of those :P
19:57:02 <arke> so basically, 189 valid chars
19:57:34 <kc5tja> I count 192 characters myself.
19:57:38 <kc5tja> 2*(128-32)
19:57:46 <arke> waitt
19:57:55 <arke> 127-32=94
19:58:01 <arke> 255-160=95
19:58:03 <arke> 95+94=189
19:59:14 <kc5tja> OK, whatever.
19:59:34 <arke> 94/2=47
20:00:16 <arke> make a loop, and see how many chars of len 47 you can have (using this method) until you hit > 4 million
20:00:18 <arke> wait
20:00:27 <arke> 4 million or 4 billion???
20:00:36 <kc5tja> 4 billion
20:00:37 <kc5tja> :)
20:00:41 <arke> :)
20:00:43 <arke> wow
20:00:44 <arke> lots of chars
20:00:45 <kc5tja> 2^32 = 4.2 billion
20:00:49 <kc5tja> ???
20:00:56 <arke> i think ive got the right method for you :)
20:01:29 <kc5tja> Most words will be less than 47 characters long though.
20:01:33 <kc5tja> s/words/word names/
20:01:59 <kc5tja> However, 189^47 is an immense number -- it won't be very many.
20:02:18 <arke> wow
20:02:19 <arke> lc!!!
20:02:21 <arke> kc!
20:02:26 <arke> i just found you a solution!!
20:02:48 <arke> lemme double check my results really quick
20:04:36 <kc5tja> Just taking 95^47, I get some number times ten to the 83rd power.
20:04:37 <kc5tja> :)
20:04:48 <kc5tja> Oops, that was after dividing it my 4.2 billion.
20:04:55 <kc5tja> Add 9 to that exponent.
20:04:55 <kc5tja> :)
20:05:35 <arke> wait
20:06:10 <arke> arrrgh
20:06:12 <arke> 4 chars :(
20:06:20 <arke> 4 chars of 47
20:06:34 <arke> its because the range is so big
20:06:54 <arke> can you compromise the range?
20:07:00 <arke> as in, just 33-127 ???
20:07:07 <kc5tja> I'd like not to.
20:08:03 <arke> because in that case, you can get ...
20:08:17 <arke> 5 chars???
20:08:19 <arke> ack
20:08:25 <arke> i think im doing something wrong here
20:08:43 <kc5tja> This thing is basically doing base 95 encoding of the name.
20:09:11 <kc5tja> where hash = ((ch[0] * 95 + ch[1]) * 95 + ch[2]) * 95 + ch[3]
20:09:52 <arke> :(
20:10:10 <kc5tja> Am I right?  >:)
20:11:09 * kc5tja wouldn't feel so upset.  Your technique is used to really, really good effect in a compression algorithm called "arithmetic encoding," which is good for long streams of characters.
20:13:08 <kc5tja> It's the only minimal encoding system that can beat Huffman encoding.
20:13:28 <kc5tja> Combined with LZ77, it can be rather potent compression engine.
20:13:35 <kc5tja> s/can be rather/can be a rather/
20:15:06 * kc5tja used base-26 encoding for ham radio callsigns in one of his digital packet radio designs to reduce network traffic, and increase efficiency over slow links.  Shrunk callsigns from 6 octets to only 4.
20:15:16 <kc5tja> KC5TJA fit perfectly well in only 4 bytes.  :)
20:15:26 <kc5tja> It was a TIGHT fit, but it did fit.  :)
20:15:35 <arke> lol
20:15:37 <arke> :)
20:15:38 <kc5tja> A1A all the way to ZZ9ZZZ
20:16:02 <arke>  what does kc5tja stand for, anyway?
20:16:26 <kc5tja> I did it by breaking the name up into three fields (because that's all that exists).  The first field was base-26 (A=0, B=1, etc), then a single base-10 field, then another base-26 field.
20:16:35 <kc5tja> (actually, base-27, because I had to account for a space too)
20:16:40 <kc5tja> KC5TJA is just an identifier.
20:16:56 <arke> eck
20:16:59 <kc5tja> Like when you see on TV, "This is WTVN Network News" -- that WTVN is a callsign, assigned by the FCC.
20:17:00 <arke> where did it come friom?
20:17:15 <kc5tja> The FCC grants the callsign as part of the radio license.
20:17:20 <arke> :)
20:17:38 <kc5tja> In my case, I have an amateur radio license, so I have an amateur radio callsign, which is always identifiable by the number in the middle of it.
20:17:46 <arke> :)
20:18:31 <kc5tja> KC indicates I'm in United States, 5 indicates I got my license in the 5th callsign district (which includes Texas, Mississippi, etc; I actually got licensed in Mississippi), and TJA is my unique identifier.
20:18:42 <kc5tja> American callsigns start with A, N, K, or W.
20:18:52 <kc5tja> Mexican callsigns start with X.
20:19:01 <kc5tja> Canadians have VE, while Australians have VK.
20:19:07 <kc5tja> Etc.
20:19:12 <arke> :)
20:19:27 <kc5tja> So VK3TJA would be from Australia, while VE1TJA would be from Canada somewhere.
20:20:41 <kc5tja> back in the 20s, before this whole regionalization thing started happening, we didn't have prefixes.
20:20:52 <kc5tja> So if I were to be licensed back in the 1920s, my license would have been 5TJA.
20:23:52 * kc5tja is away: cooking dinner -- brb
20:26:12 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:02:20)
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22:45:40 <kc5tja> Wow, MysticOne is up late tonight.
22:55:03 <Sonarman> do you live in the same time zone as him, or something?
23:08:14 <kc5tja> Nope.
23:08:19 <kc5tja> He's east coast, I'm west coast.
23:08:33 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm going to hit the sack.
23:08:37 <kc5tja> I need to work tomorrow.
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