00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.13 00:00:06 --- quit: skylan (Nick collision from services.) 00:00:22 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4792.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 00:38:02 kc5tja, '3' is coming out soon-ish. 00:38:11 I think I'll watch it just because ... 00:39:49 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 01:41:02 --- join: schihei (~schihei@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 01:42:37 hi schihei. 01:42:48 do you have a #forth story? 01:44:11 err Forth, not #forth 02:11:47 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 02:12:03 hi segher 02:12:13 good morning 02:12:36 do you have a forth story to tell? ;) 02:12:47 I tried to get one out of schihei but ... 02:13:00 what kind of story do you want to hear? 02:13:16 how you found forth for instance :) 02:14:01 i learnt forth when i was 10. it was my second computing language (first being 6502 machine code). that was 20 years ago. 02:14:16 damn! 02:14:30 what made you go learn forth? 02:14:39 i got a book on it. 02:14:50 (my father had a bookstore back then) 02:15:07 oh i see. 02:15:09 which book? 02:15:17 it was the golden age of home computers, if you remember... 02:15:24 Nope. 02:15:28 20 years ago, I was 6. 02:15:34 don't remember -- was a blue book, with magenta 02:15:40 starting forth? 02:15:51 by leo brodie? 02:16:20 no bloody idea. it was translated to dutch, anyway 02:16:56 hmmm, did this book have lots of funny cartoons in it? 02:17:03 do you remember? 02:17:13 don't think so 02:17:20 i still must have it somewhere 02:17:41 so you haven't used the language in 20 years? 02:17:43 but i'm 800km from home, and not returning until xmas, so... 02:17:53 heh no. i use it all the time. 02:18:02 really? how? 02:18:22 it's just a great language to program in. 02:18:47 what kinds of programs do you write, if I may ask? 02:19:24 all kinds of. if you search google for me, you'll mostly notice my work on GCC and Ogg Vorbis. 02:19:48 eh, no i meant kinds in forth specifically. 02:20:16 google Does know you. 02:20:32 i did some huge-number stuff, for factoring numbers recently 02:20:51 i've done all kinds of stuff in forth 02:21:54 cool, you're associated with openbios. 02:21:58 they seem to like forth :P 02:22:13 i'm not associated with them anymore. 02:22:18 Oh. 02:22:26 and they do not have a license to use my code, anyway 02:23:32 I see. 02:24:42 pretty cool story. 02:24:45 thanks. 02:26:33 Mon Oct 13 05:28:26 EDT 2003 02:26:36 :| 02:26:44 I should be sleeping. class in a few 02:26:46 ciao 02:26:50 Zzzzz 02:26:51 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 04:45:14 --- join: schihei_ (~schihei@web.kst.fh-albsig.de) joined #forth 04:45:38 --- part: schihei_ left #forth 04:56:27 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 05:40:17 --- join: augur (~hulla@200.217.158.174) joined #forth 06:29:35 --- quit: skylan (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:29:35 --- quit: MysticOne (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:29:35 --- quit: rpc 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--- join: mmanning (~mmanning@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 07:27:27 --- quit: augur-off ("...veritas virus est") 08:14:20 --- join: andreou (~panx@195.130.107.55) joined #forth 08:14:20 --- quit: onetom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:17:54 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 08:33:16 --- quit: andreou ("ta kanonika paidia pai8ainoyn kanonika. ta diaforetika paidia pe8ainoyn eley8era. (A)") 08:33:18 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.106) joined #forth 08:33:18 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 08:33:28 hiya all 08:47:12 Hi TheBlueWizard :) 08:47:19 hiya Robert 08:51:38 hey TheBlueWizard Robert 08:53:31 hiya arke 09:34:18 --- quit: arke (Excess Flood) 09:35:11 --- join: arke (~arke@adsl-68-22-251-173.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 09:35:18 hiya arke again 09:41:42 --- join: rk (~rk@ca-cmrilo-cuda1-c3b-66.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 09:43:34 hiya rk 09:47:57 hey TheBlueWizard 09:48:06 :) 09:48:29 whats up? :) 09:50:12 nothing much...reading Slashdot and chill out 09:51:38 :) 09:52:02 and learning a bit of Finnish :) 09:52:19 :) 09:52:35 i've had a smiley on every line except the first up until now :) 09:54:33 lol...yeah 09:54:57 it is a universal way to say something without saying anything :) 10:07:41 :) 10:11:11 --- join: andreou (~panx@195.130.107.55) joined #forth 10:11:16 hiya andreou 10:11:26 y0 andreou 10:11:30 hey guys 10:14:03 back out :) 10:14:04 --- quit: andreou (Client Quit) 10:14:34 3 minutes .... hes actually challenging TheBlueWizard lol :) 10:14:47 lol...yup 10:15:07 --- join: schihei (~schihei@pD9548E72.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:15:24 my computers aren't intended for 24 hours operations (one is a laptop, another is a very old Pentium box) 10:16:25 :) 10:16:30 but 3 MINUTES? :P 10:17:31 lol...sometimes, yes! ;) 10:19:59 :) 10:24:22 * TheBlueWizard wonders whether rk is vying to become a champion of having the most smiley-liners 10:24:40 jdrake: goes all fast and stuff 10:24:42 woops 10:24:43 :D 10:24:46 yup :) 10:25:14 as I thought :) 10:25:23 :) 10:25:37 clog: you logging all this? 10:25:50 clog: you seeing that im having the most smileys here? :) :) :) :P :P :P 10:25:59 * TheBlueWizard now engages in a smiley-liner one-up-man-ship....not :) 10:26:24 clog is indeed logging everything, including itself :) 10:27:18 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 10:27:19 !stat rk 10:27:19 rk: 3764 words, 19516 letters, 75 smilies, time wasted: 4 weeks 6 days 19 hours 46 minutes . 10:27:27 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 10:27:46 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 10:27:47 --- quit: segher (Excess Flood) 10:27:50 ha ha ha.... 10:28:09 hahaha 10:28:09 lol 10:28:22 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 10:28:23 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 10:28:28 segher: :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) 10:29:08 lol 10:29:16 !stat rk 10:29:29 i wonder if clog also does individual stats etc. 10:29:31 would be nice 10:29:38 clog: HOW MANY SMILEYS!!!! 10:39:33 well, gotta go...bye all 10:40:21 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 11:31:39 --- join: onetom (~tom@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 11:38:44 --- quit: segher (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:38:44 --- quit: mmanning (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:38:59 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 11:38:59 --- join: mmanning (~mmanning@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 11:51:50 --- quit: segher ("signing off") 12:56:11 --- quit: mmanning ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 13:52:56 --- join: andreou (~panx@195.130.107.57) joined #forth 14:13:23 --- quit: andreou (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:15:37 --- join: andreou (~panx@195.130.107.57) joined #forth 14:18:54 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 14:30:13 --- quit: andreou (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:29:31 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 17:29:40 Uh oh ... services are down? 17:32:01 --- quit: arke (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:32:01 --- quit: rpc (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:32:01 --- quit: skylan (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:32:01 --- quit: MysticOne (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:32:01 --- quit: ChanServ (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 17:32:04 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 17:32:04 --- mode: leguin.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 17:34:10 --- nick: rk -> k_ 17:37:49 --- nick: k_ -> rk 17:43:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 17:43:43 Man, aren't we all just having a ball here on IRC tonight? 18:18:20 --- join: arke (~arke@adsl-68-22-251-173.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net) joined #forth 18:18:20 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4792.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 18:18:20 --- join: MysticOne (mysticone@mysticone.usercloak.freenode) joined #forth 18:18:20 --- join: rpc (~rpc@global.whiteh8.net) joined #forth 18:49:49 welcome back folks. 19:05:49 y0 kc5tja 19:05:59 re 19:06:19 * kc5tja is trying to figure out the construction of a simple 4-bit video DAC for a friend of mine. 19:12:20 * rk is messing w/VBE 19:12:25 not in forth tho 19:12:48 i just spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out why my code didnt work 19:12:55 i wrote AX instead of AH 19:12:56 lol 19:22:48 grr 19:27:06 wow 19:27:08 :) 19:27:11 heehee 19:27:19 my VBE code just crashed the NTVDM 19:27:24 * rk is happy now 19:27:30 lol 19:59:29 Hehe ;0 19:59:32 :) even 19:59:36 * kc5tja fell asleep. 19:59:41 * kc5tja is very, very tired. 19:59:55 I do need food though. 20:00:46 ACK! 20:00:47 grr 20:00:49 fscking 20:00:50 argh 20:01:02 ? 20:01:03 @E$^@$#%@#$%@#%^@#%@^$@^@%@!$^%$#@$%^%$%^%$#%^#$&#%#$@^$%&$%@^#@@$%^$%^@%$%@$^$##^@^@%##@ 20:01:26 for some weird reason, somewhere at the end of the code, it RESETS IP TO 0 20:01:56 which means NTVDM happily bites off 5 bytes, and complains that they wont work 20:02:07 grr 20:02:32 Well, they'd better work somewhat. :) 20:02:42 its like 20:02:45 CS:0000h should be a CALL instruction, somewhere into dos. 20:02:52 its not tho 20:03:20 in debug, a u0 gives me: 20:03:21 ff fe something some 20:03:24 er 20:03:24 wait 20:03:25 Well, even if it were, I doubt it'd be the behavior you wanted. IT'd probably still crash. 20:03:36 0B72:0000 FFFE ??? SI 20:03:36 0B72:0002 FD STD 20:03:36 0B72:0003 FC CLD 20:03:36 0B72:0004 FB STI 20:03:54 Weird. 20:04:00 VERY weird 20:04:08 I guess you won't be running any CP/M software under Windows NT. 20:04:14 if i dont run it in debug, it does an infinite loop of illegal opcodes 20:04:16 NT is apparently DOS incompatible. ;0 20:04:20 Goddammit 20:04:20 cp/m?? 20:04:21 :) even 20:04:58 MS-DOS is basically CP/M-86, ripped from the hands of a harddrive manufacturer, who knew better than to release it as a public product. 20:05:45 alright 20:05:53 im gonna trace through the code, and see what i can find 20:06:19 Good luck. 20:06:25 * kc5tja needs to get something to eat. 20:06:42 ack! 20:06:59 int 0x10 borfes my IP _AND_ CS!!! 20:06:59 * kc5tja is away: foodstuffs 20:07:26 rk: No, it is treated as a far subroutine call. 20:07:36 You're probably looking at video BIOS code. 20:07:41 hrm 20:07:41 ooh 20:07:42 yeah 20:07:44 cool :) 20:07:48 hehe 20:07:58 BIOS should use a jump table lol 20:08:06 It does use a jump-table. 20:08:10 Lots of them. 20:08:35 However, BIOS is not well engineered at all. 20:09:14 Intel, to this day, is still pissed off with IBM for choosing to hang services on chip-reserved interrupt vectors, which are now used for other things. 20:09:18 Anyway, I'm off. 20:09:22 I'll be right back. 20:09:35 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 20:20:28 do you guys think i'd get arrested for disassembling and commenting DOS???? 20:20:30 lol 20:23:00 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 20:24:07 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 20:32:08 rk: why bother? 20:33:32 becaseu ... um... dunno .. because its fun? because i can exploit crappy code? 20:33:33 lol 20:33:37 i cant type 20:35:10 You might as well grab the source for FreeDOS, as it comes pre-annotated :-) 20:36:44 thats not as fun tho 20:37:09 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 20:37:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 20:37:15 hey kc5tja' 20:37:16 Who the fsck closed my damn IRC client?!?! 20:37:30 YOU DID!!! 20:37:30 lol 20:37:33 I didn't. 20:37:51 * kc5tja thinks his window manager has a bug or two in it. 20:37:59 it closed exactly 13 seconds after you said I'll be right back. 20:38:06 This is not the first time it's happened that I've minimized an app, and it ended up closing it. 20:38:13 l0lz0r 20:38:28 what window manager? 20:38:31 I'm running XChat. 20:38:38 windowmanager? 20:38:39 KDE's default window manager 20:38:42 grr 20:38:43 bad 20:38:44 evil 20:38:50 It's decent. 20:38:51 fluxbox.sf.net 20:38:58 :) 20:39:07 no 20:39:12 fluxbox.sf.net is good 20:39:13 I like very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very minimal window managers. 20:39:14 kde = evil 20:39:15 :) 20:39:24 go download twm then 20:39:25 Say what you will of anything else, Ion is bar none the best WM I've ever used. 20:39:30 twm is too complex. 20:39:31 fluxbox is pretty minimal tho 20:39:41 twm is TOO COMPLEX?????????// 20:39:46 Compared to Ion, yes. 20:39:50 you gotta be KIDDING 20:39:57 And Ion is a hell of a lot easier to use too. 20:40:06 right-click = xterm 20:40:09 and thats it 20:40:10 ??? 20:40:17 Yes. 20:40:21 twm requires the mouse to use. 20:40:22 Ion doesn't. 20:40:23 0.0 20:40:44 w o w 20:40:46 Also, twm has overlapping windows. 20:40:47 anyway 20:40:53 do you guys think i'd get arrested for disassembling and commenting DOS???? 20:40:57 Ion has full-screen windows all the time, every time. 20:41:10 kc5tja: now THATS evil 20:41:13 rk: In modern times, and if Microsoft cared, you could. 20:41:21 DMCA makes reverse engineering illegal. 20:41:25 rk: No it isn't. 20:41:27 damn 20:41:43 kc5tja: yeah it is 20:41:48 Why is it evil? 20:41:54 because 20:41:55 well 20:41:56 I'm using x-chat full-screen now 20:41:58 it just is :P 20:42:04 My xterms are full-screen. 20:42:45 if my screen could get a higher resolution, i would have NOTHING full screen. right now, i only have a few things full screen 20:42:45 I should not have to manage my windows -- that's the window manager's job. 20:42:59 hrm 20:43:05 interesting point 20:43:11 * rk wants a mac lol 20:43:17 he 20:43:19 heh 20:45:15 thats the only feature i kinda like about KDE --- the ability to deffine your menui bars at the top 20:45:17 and i cant ype 20:45:19 tyepe* 20:45:21 type* 20:45:23 grr 20:45:35 You can do the same with Gnome too. 20:45:42 I don't remember how to do it though. 20:47:23 Right now I'm using KDE because of my former business. 20:48:23 I was going to offer Linux-on-the-Desktop support and installations, and K is the easiest desktop for newbies to grok. 20:48:51 hats true 20:48:56 KDE is very nice 20:48:59 well 20:49:05 So I had to be familiar with it -- hence why I'm (still) using it. 20:49:07 its nice when you're doing anything but hardcore development 20:50:50 I do kind of like its standard office suite that comes with it, too. 20:53:15 Kword is very nice. 20:53:20 Abiword is the suck 20:54:18 OpenOffice is good, but slow. 20:54:30 (written in Java) 20:55:59 heh 20:56:05 open office is coded in java : 20:56:06 I don't like OpenOffice too much 20:56:08 wtf were they thjinking ? 20:56:14 I440r: i agree :P 20:56:28 or rather, wtf were they DRINKNIG? 20:56:33 it must be the office suite thing of the day 20:56:41 I440r: Write once, run anywhere -- OO runs on Linux, WIndows, PowerPCs, x86s, Solaris, Irix, ...etc... 20:56:43 all the current Major MS apps are written in C# 20:56:58 yes but it works like shit on all of the above 20:57:03 No, hardly. 20:57:12 It works just fine -- just slow, that's all. 20:57:35 slow <> fine 20:57:52 I440r: You are so narrow minded about fucking everything, it royally fucking pisses me off. 20:58:18 I can't imagine how you can go through life so narrow-minded, so unwilling to appreciate other works. 20:58:41 The Constantinesco car is a *fine* car, but it's horrendously slow by today's standards. 20:58:52 i can appreciate GOOD works, i am poleaxed at what everyone else accepts as "just fine" 20:58:54 literally 20:59:12 You just defined yourself with circular logic. 20:59:21 oooh its ok that its 293847652938465 gigs in size and takes a 29348562938465278357892345678423 ghz processor to run 20:59:23 GOOD works? What constitutes a GOOD work? 20:59:26 tahts what eveyone has anyway 21:00:02 harware can only carry the load for software so far. eventyally software engineers will actually have to THINK about the resources they are wasting 21:00:03 lol 21:00:16 except they never will 21:00:28 I440r: Thus invalidating your whole argument. THE WHOLE ARGUMENT. 21:00:35 So why even CONTINUE along that line of thinking? 21:00:44 eh ? 21:01:01 ive not invalidated a thing. software SUCKS big time 21:01:12 and hardware has had to take up the slack 21:01:18 Large, unweildly, highly unreliable software does suck. 21:01:29 a.k.a. any recent MS software 21:01:32 i.e. 99% of whats out there 21:01:35 no. not just MS 21:01:39 But you give NO FUCKING CHANCE to software which is large, but reliable. 21:01:45 And that just plain is not fair. 21:01:52 why the HELL would they write their entire fucking suite in C#? 21:01:55 large lumbering slow and only falls over every so often 21:02:11 rk: Because they want to persue the software-as-a-service, because that's the only way they can get any future income. 21:02:21 I440r: You're not making any sense now. 21:02:36 In fact, you aren't even listening to what I'm saying. 21:02:59 And that just grates on me the wrong way. 21:03:06 i am making sense you just arent understanding 21:03:12 Bullshit, dude. 21:03:15 Bull fucking shit. 21:03:15 Microsoft made a big mistake in choosing C# for its main language 21:03:19 if its 20384756238076528937456789 gigs of executable its a pile of shit 21:03:22 even if it NEVER crashes 21:03:24 rk: No, it was the smartest thing they could have done. 21:03:31 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:33 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:33 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:33 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:34 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:34 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:34 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:36 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:38 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:40 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:42 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:45 BULL FUCKING SHIT! 21:03:50 It may be big. 21:03:53 It may be slow. 21:04:14 But if it does the job the customer wants, and does it fast enough, and it doesn't ever lose the customer's data, then how can you say it's a piece of shit? 21:04:15 i disagree and i realy dont think that the above is cool 21:04:19 I don't mind if its big, but its gotta be at least semi-speedy and reliable 21:04:39 kc5tja: how so? 21:04:51 err - "does the job" but it costs 23084658923465 bucks because it took the 234085624378 engineers 500 man ours each to write 21:05:05 See, there you go again, pulling assinine numbers out your ass again. 21:05:05 so something that should only cost $50 costs $200 21:05:17 there isnt a SINGLE piece of software inexistance thats worth more than $50 21:05:23 never has been, never will be 21:05:25 Wrong. 21:05:28 Dead wrong. 21:05:34 Indeed. 21:05:40 The software that maintains a respirator at a hospital is worth only $14.49? 21:05:48 only reason it costs so much is because of teh bullshit people call "engineering" these days 21:05:51 The software that maintains the shuttle's flight path is worth only $8.9? 21:05:55 No way. 21:06:06 You are dreadfully showing your ignorance in this situation. 21:06:17 I've been in the commercial market business. 21:06:25 And nothing you're saying is making a LICK of sense anywhere. 21:06:26 kc5tja: well, C# isn't that bad, the bad thing I think is that they based C# on a VM scale. They should have left teh option of compiling native C#. 21:06:38 AFAIK, C# doesn't compile natively. 21:06:47 rk: Compiling native C# is the only thing that DOES happen. 21:06:48 no. i think the the world has its head up its ass. software is mostly CRAP. 21:06:53 Thus, it's horrendously slow 21:07:10 kc5tja: o.O 21:07:11 if hardware engineers did their job the way software engineers did theirs...... 21:07:22 heh 21:07:23 I440r: You're looking at the works of only a select few companies -- Microsoft, and Intel. Borland did NOT produce shit software. Oracle doesn't produce shit software. IBM doesn't produce shit software. 21:07:43 i would tend to disagree on all of the above 21:07:55 rk: C# compiles to a bytecode which represents what the programmer intended. Then, when running the software, that byte-code is compiled to native software. 21:08:04 im sure each of the above has produced SOMETHING worth of note 21:08:06 I440r: Because you don't have any epxerience with them. 21:08:09 but not anything i can think of 21:08:27 err ok. on what do you base THAT fucking statment 21:08:58 kc5tja: yeah. 21:09:10 kc5tja: its not gonna compile it all at once tho 21:09:13 Y'all need to chill and start over later, IMO. 21:09:22 The fact that you blithly assume that if it's made by a commercial software company, it's designed to run on customer's computers, it's shit because it takes 208934928734928734982734092873401928374089239823174092380923809823745092830592837450928374509283742304985273495 gigs of RAM, and costs as much. 21:09:43 Which is a wholesale unfounded statement to make, let alone REPEAT. 21:10:01 kc5tja: thats what makes it so slow. 21:10:06 * rk hates slow apps 21:10:22 rk: And the difference is what again? Every modern C compiler does exactly the same. The only difference is it bundles the raw executable into a neat package instead of loading it piecemeal (exception: DLLs). 21:10:27 rk: But it's not. 21:10:39 Study how a microprocessor really handles virtual memory,a nd you'll see that it's patently not what makes it slow. 21:10:47 i just installed windows xp - not too bad but there are ALOT of inconsistencies in there, alot of config items taht should be together but are spread out all over teh fuking place 21:10:49 a C compiler creates a binary which uses run-time libraries 21:10:57 alot of "features" taht people might just NOT want 21:10:58 The software that executes under Windows, or Linux, or AIX, or Solaris, or whatever, ONLY the code that is currently executing is loaded into memory. 21:11:04 but you get them and your stuck with them 21:11:07 The remainder of the software exists solely in harddrive. 21:11:14 If it's never touched, it's never loaded. 21:11:17 because thats waht m$ says you should have 21:11:22 ? 21:11:37 I440r: Again -- you're basing the whole state of the industry on Microsoft. 21:11:38 XP is a little TOO user friendly with certain things 21:11:45 ok so if i dont want my windows explorer to exand archive files as if they were directories all i have to do is NOT run explorer 21:11:45 ok 21:11:46 rk: C compilers target all sorts of environments. 21:11:46 that works 21:12:03 universal plug and play 21:12:17 your box saying "hello network here i am come play with me" 21:12:24 Windows needs the ability to have actual window managers :) 21:12:33 and you have to FORCE it off - and eventually windows will force it right back on 21:12:38 haha 21:12:40 so you have to keep checking up on it 21:12:44 I440r: yes, you had that too? 21:12:54 I440r: A Windows problem, not the state-of-the-art's problem. 21:13:05 i told the connection to disconnect, which it did after complaining nd taking about 5 minutes. and 10 minutes IT AS RIGHT BACK ON 21:13:09 I know for a fact that AmigaOS doesn't have this problem, and it's been fully auto-configuring since 1984. 21:13:23 was* 21:13:33 But remember that XP has always been, and always will be, spyware itself. 21:13:36 no way to log in as admin unless you boot to "Safe mode" or dig through the fragmented config windows and STUMBLE on the "add administrator to welcome screen" 21:13:42 yes - this is " 21:13:43 It reports back to Microsoft everything you do, touch, taste, smell, have sex with, etc. 21:13:46 "good software" 21:13:53 I never said WIndows was good software. 21:13:59 Please quote where I said that it was. 21:14:21 I'm talking about your blanket statements. 21:14:24 you were defending microsoft, ibm, borland etc 21:14:30 Blanket statements which are unfounded and untrue. 21:14:40 YOU made one 21:14:45 so did i 21:14:46 You're sounding like a fucking republican!!! "If you don't support us, you're only aiding and abetting the terrorists!" 21:14:48 and i repeat it 21:14:53 99% of all software is BULLSHIT 21:15:07 i AM a fucking republican 21:15:16 and thats NOT how republicans think 21:15:33 * TreyB reminds y'all again to consider a cool-down period. 21:15:34 My ass -- read the newspapers. Ashcroft? Bush? Cheney? They've been QUOTED on this. 21:15:36 YOUR sounding like a damned democratic liberal (insult deleted) 21:15:57 I am. And I'm proud to be an American, thank you very much. 21:16:00 i think ashcroft is absolutely the WORST thing happening to this country right now 21:16:03 he is NOT a republican 21:16:14 Then neither is Bush nor Cheney. 21:16:25 Nor our entire senate. 21:16:25 cheney is a close second behind ashcroft 21:16:35 the state department needs to be PURGED 21:16:44 Well, at least there's something we agree on. 21:16:51 and the "dont ask/dont tell" polacies need to be totally eradicated 21:17:19 who agrees with me?? the entire world is just plain fuxx0red 21:17:28 every part of it. 21:17:29 * kc5tja raises his hand 21:17:42 those were thanks to that asshole in the state department 21:17:56 well i refuse to accept a world thats fucked up 21:18:05 i for one dont go WITH the flow 21:18:22 but polatics has nothing to do with engineering 21:18:46 this job im on right now is absolutely teh best contract i ever had and the code here is horrendous 21:18:49 * kc5tja is powerless -- I have no choice but to go with the flow. 21:18:58 because its being developed with swiftx 21:19:02 * kc5tja sighs 21:19:15 I won't even touch that. 21:19:19 swiftx is a HUGE pile of overly complex solutions to a very very simple problem 21:19:38 Why didn't you just write your own Forth implementation from scratch? 21:19:45 he did.... 21:19:45 Heck you have IsForth ... why not just port that? 21:19:51 i spend a great deal of time trying to figure out exactly how the system wants me to do this 21:19:54 rk: I'm talking in context here. 21:20:01 err. he who has the gold makes teh rules 21:20:11 im the employee, not the big boss 21:20:26 i do waht im told with the tools im told to use - and im HAPPY doing it 21:20:52 But it's obvious you're not -- "swiftx is (various explatives deleted)" 21:21:20 kc5tja: dont you ever get the feeling when youre having fun using something crappy? :) 21:21:26 rk: No. 21:21:31 kc5tja: of course. 21:21:35 I feel like total shit if I'm using something crappy. 21:21:36 kc5tja: everybody does :) 21:22:27 I'm going to start riding my bike in to work soon, for two very important reasons: exercise and my car's transmission is fubared. 21:22:42 like, QB is crap (although probably semi-decent for its time). sometimes when i get bored, i start using QB. 21:22:48 no, thats not what i said 21:22:49 kc5tja: stick or auto? 21:22:54 rk: Auto of course. 21:23:01 That's why it suxxors. 21:23:02 kc5tja: sucks for you. 21:23:10 kc5tja: get a stick :) 21:23:13 The rest of the car works fine -- like it was new. 21:23:21 rk: Do you have $10K I can use to do it with? 21:23:29 0.0 21:23:31 nevermind.... 21:23:31 lol 21:23:43 I doubt it'd cost that much if I shop around. 21:23:43 wait 21:23:52 doesnt cost 10k, not even in california! 21:24:08 yeah 21:24:09 But the tranny itself is going to cost around $2K, the hydraulics is another $1K, and then there's labor. 21:24:10 :) 21:24:32 And then you just know someone is going to screw something up, so you're going to have to bring the car back in for other repairs. 21:24:35 what exactly is wrong with your trans right now, anyway? 21:24:50 :P 21:24:51 When it's cold, it doesn't want to shift out of 1st gear. 21:25:06 heh 21:25:07 Once it's warmed up a little bit, it'll shift into 2nd only when the car hits 5000-6000 RPM. 21:25:16 major gas loss there 21:25:17 (which happens to be the engine's max power point) 21:25:41 When it's warmed up a little bit more, it'll maybe shift at 3000-4000 RPM (more normal for a rotary transmission) 21:25:54 Finally, when the transmission is hot, it shifts just fine. 21:26:04 weird 21:26:06 lol 21:26:07 All the while, it's making a wonderful burning smell. 21:26:12 hehe 21:26:25 Which means I probably need to change the tranny fluid in it by now. 21:26:37 * rk doesnt have that problem 21:26:46 At any rate, the first chance I get, I swear by God, I will get a stick put in it 21:26:51 RX-7s aren't made for autos. 21:27:09 sticks are more efficient too 21:27:11 Unless it's a CVT, then it would be just fine. 21:27:12 - more control 21:27:18 - more speed, if you need it to 21:27:25 but a fluid-based torque converter just won't handle the power a rotary will put out. 21:27:26 - less gas mileage, if you need it too 21:27:31 - less brake usage 21:27:37 * kc5tja wants a manually controlled CVT. 21:27:42 But that's a pipe-dream. 21:27:43 cvt? 21:27:49 Continuously variable transmission. 21:28:17 * kc5tja also wants a CVT on my bike too -- hence my research into Constantinesco torque converters. 21:29:38 Well, now that I've gotten some food into me, and I've had my bi-monthly duke-out with I440r, I can get some peaceful sleep tonight. 21:30:08 * kc5tja suspects rk is googling or something... :) 21:30:18 i was just about to lol 21:31:13 I have a URL for you to bookmark if you're interested. 21:31:30 Has a lot of useful information, and tons of links to various CVT varieties (including a Constantinesco page) 21:31:31 how could you have a manual cvt? 21:31:33 sure :) 21:31:44 http://cvt.com.sapo.pt/toc_en.htm 21:31:58 All CVTs have a mechanical linkage of some kind to control gear ratio. 21:32:24 An "automatic" CVT typically will have a servo- or hydraulically controlled mechanism to move this linkage, depending on how you're driving. 21:32:44 I say, eliminate the computer and that automated linkage, and just put that linkage up to a stick. 21:33:14 Let the driver move the stick as he prefers -- with some practice, I'm positive he can get the same, or better, milage as the computer can get. 21:33:15 Or more power. 21:33:35 CVT-equipped 70HP Toyota Prius passed me up in my 100HP RX-7 (my old one) like I was *standing still*. 21:33:35 :) 21:33:36 oh, like a second throttle thing, kinda? 21:33:41 Sort of. :) 21:33:58 so its actually a slider thing, not a stick? 21:34:22 Well, I would personally expose it to the driver as a normal "stick"-shaped thing, but it'd be smooth, instead of stepped. 21:34:26 So yeah, it's like a slider. 21:35:14 cool 21:35:15 so 21:35:41 like, if i wanted to start cruising like mad, i would push it forward and floor it, then to save gas, pull it back 21:36:20 More realisticly, it'd be used like this. 21:36:54 If you wanted to accelerate at a decent rate, but not like mad, you'd bring the engine up to, say, 3000RPM (e.g., "cruising speed" in a rotary; maybe 2000 to 2500 in a regular engine). 21:37:23 Then, from there, you'd slowly pull back on the stick until you reach the speed you'd like to cruise at. 21:38:08 cool :) 21:38:11 yeah 21:38:13 If you want to go 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, then you'd rev the engine to (again, for rotary) 6500 to 8500 RPM (depending on generation of rotary!), then do the same -- just pull back on the stick (only faster here :) ). 21:38:21 im looking at how it works right now ... its pretty sweet 21:38:25 * kc5tja nods 21:38:34 * kc5tja is very excited about CVT technology. 21:38:51 manual CVT ... major sweetness :) 21:38:52 I often wish I could do 1500 RPM in my car while hauling ass at 80MPH on the freeway. :D 21:38:59 haha 21:39:18 with my car, youd have to be in 5th gear at 4-5000 RPM at least 21:39:19 lol 21:39:22 Heck, at idle (750RPM), the rotary produces about 10HP. 21:39:42 At 80MPH, in my car, I'm doing 3250RPM in top gear. 21:39:53 Note that max torque for my engine is 4500 RPM, and max power (150HP) is at 6500RPM. 21:39:54 :)' 21:40:14 So I've got a LOT of room to go in my car. :) 21:40:19 Top speed in my car is something lik 148 to 150MPH. 21:40:54 (assuming I have the windows all closed, no A/C, and I get my passenger side mirror fixed to correct it's poor aerodynamics -- it's cracked right now, and so, does present some drag) 21:41:08 Oh, and a quarter tank of gas. 21:41:17 It won't go that fast with a full tank. :) Just too heavy. 21:41:27 :) 21:41:30 i wish 21:41:30 lol 21:41:35 mine goes maybe 85 21:41:41 but ive never even done that with it lol 21:41:49 my mom says 85 is its max 21:41:50 I do it regularly here in CA. 21:42:03 shes not letting me on the freeway yet grrr 21:42:04 Well, a lot of times, a car can go faster than what it reads in its speedometer. 21:42:17 yeah 21:42:29 But that being said, it probably shouldn't be brought up faster than 80MPH anyway. 21:42:37 Realistically speaking, I see no logical reason to exceed 80MPH. 21:43:02 Most engines are optimized for their highest fuel efficiency between 65MPH and 85MPH, depending on the engine. 21:43:07 In my case, it's 80MPH even. 21:43:22 (a lot of it is affected by gearing in the tranny too) 21:43:38 heh 21:43:52 I can put a more torquey tranny in my car, and limit its top speed to, like, 120MPH or so, and get MUCH more off-the-line punch as a result. 21:43:54 my dads car (chevy caprice) doesnt have a kickback, i noticed the other day 21:44:01 then my max fuel economy would be somewhere closer to 65MPH. 21:44:12 :) 21:44:25 kc5tja: hows your kickback on your car? 21:44:46 Rotaries aren't known for kick-back, because they produce power at high RPMs, not low RPMs. 21:45:01 erm 21:45:05 So when driving a rotary, you won't snap your neck. :) 21:45:10 well, maybe we're talking about different things 21:45:17 ooh 21:45:17 heh 21:45:22 But what you do feel is, the faster you go in the car, the harder you're pushed back in the seat. 21:45:28 i meant %bkickdown 21:45:38 i meant kickdown lol 21:45:48 TEST 21:45:54 Which is a neat sensation in and of itself. :) I prefer it, frankly, to off-the-line break-neck sensation. 21:45:55 i meant kickdown 21:45:58 What is kick-down? 21:46:43 like, for example, with my uncles truck, if your in 3rd gear, and you push it down to lets say 2/3, it downshifts and pulls up the RPMs real high 21:47:14 Yeah, as any automatic transmission would. 21:47:21 my dads doesnt 21:47:25 :) 21:47:41 deosnt have kickdown :) 21:47:49 Then his tranny either has problems, or....something isn't right. 21:48:04 It should downshift if it needs extra torque to the wheels beyond what the torque converter can provide. 21:48:06 my dads is quite powerful, but tuned for very VERY low fuel consumption 21:48:20 doesnt really need it 21:48:22 Well, Caprice is a total muscle car anyway. :) 21:48:26 :) 21:48:35 In a CVT car, you won't get kickback either. 21:48:48 The tranny just glides into a lower gear without changing engine RPMs. :D 21:48:53 you probably couldnt stall a cvt car either .. i think 21:49:03 hrm 21:49:05 Depends on the CVT. 21:49:08 would a manual cvt need a clutch? 21:49:12 If it's an IVT, no, you won't be able to. 21:49:16 But if it's just a normal CVT, you can. 21:49:18 ivt? 21:49:25 Infinitely variable transmission. 21:49:34 er 21:49:34 A CVT is continuous across a discrete range (e.g., 1:5 to 5:1) 21:49:36 ? 21:50:00 An IVT is continuous down to stall-point (e.g., 1:0 to 5:1; note that 1 divided by 0 is infinite, hence the name) 21:50:29 ok 21:50:35 would you need a clutch? prolly not... 21:50:41 well, it would be nice just for stopping 21:50:45 Not for an IVT, but for a CVT, you would. 21:50:51 yeah 21:50:55 However, this brings an interesting point up. 21:51:05 I do **NOT** like engine braking except when *I* want to slow the car down. 21:51:22 There isn't a single transmission on the road today that supports freewheeling. 21:51:33 freewheeling? 21:51:38 Yet, in my 1st gen RX-7, I'm positive that's why I got much higher fuel economy than in my 2nd gen RX-7. 21:51:48 oh 21:51:50 clutch 21:51:53 coasint 21:51:55 You accelerate, you cruise, and then you put the car in neutral, and let the rear wheels just spin. 21:51:57 coasting* 21:52:00 yeah 21:52:05 im missing that with AT's 21:52:13 Meanwhile, you're doing 60+MPH and the engine is idling at 700RPM. 21:52:36 you cant just switch it to n either... 21:52:37 That's what I like about the Constantinesco torque converter -- and most other racheting CVTs -- is that they all depend on freewheeling. 21:53:01 heh? 21:53:05 could you explain that? 21:53:18 But because 99% of the drivers will expect the car to behave like any other auto transmission (because they are unwilling to learn to drive again, morons), they'll actually make the car heavier and more failure-prone with additional gearing to *simulate* engine braking. 21:53:37 Think of a bicycle -- that has a racheting transmission in it (though not continuous). 21:53:48 When you apply torque to the pedals, it spins the rear wheel. 21:54:16 after the bike gets to its target speed, as long as you pedal at a constant rate, you'll notice the bike will periodically engage and disengage the rear hub. 21:54:35 hit-and-miss 21:54:38 :) 21:54:41 Kind of, yes. 21:54:57 You can actually ride a bike to a decent speed without a true circular motion on the pedals. 21:55:21 It's awkward to do, but you can get about 50% power to the wheels by reciprocating the pedals instead. 21:55:24 bike cant engine brake lol 21:55:28 Precisely. 21:55:36 And I don't want it to. 21:55:41 That's what makes it such an efficient ride. 21:55:52 Likewise, I don't want my car to engine brake either. 21:55:56 or at least have the option to 21:55:57 UNLESS I explicitly tell it to. 21:56:00 * kc5tja nods 21:56:43 See, the clutch operation in my ideal car would be that the tranny would let the car freewheel until the output shaft was spinning as fast as the engine's shaft, in which case, the one-way clutch on the output shaft would engage. 21:57:05 This is normal free-wheeling. 21:57:31 how would this work in CVT? 21:57:50 One-way clutches work just like they do in a rear bike hub. 21:58:01 oh 21:58:15 (the rear bike hub is a Pawl clutch; cars already use one-way clutchs called Sprag clutches in automatic transmissions and CVTs) 21:58:25 ?? 21:59:14 It's just a different way of obtaining the one-way motion. Sprags are much quieter, but need to be immersed in oil. Pawl clutches are noisy (listen to any coasting bike!), but have springs and can be lubed with ordinary bearing grease. 21:59:26 (note: when submersed in oil, however, a Pawl clutch is pretty quiet too. :) ) 21:59:53 That "Clunk!" you hear when you hit the gas on an automatic transmission vehicle is the sprag clutches engaging, BTW. 21:59:53 :) 22:00:50 Actually, what I would like to use instead of engine braking, is resistive braking (or, better still, regenerative braking). 22:00:56 Like what they use for locomotives. 22:01:31 When they brake, the wheels are clutched to generators, and the output of the generator is converted to heat via a big, fat, oil-immersed or air-cooled, wire-wound, hundreds of watt-rated resistor. :) 22:01:49 :) 22:02:00 * kc5tja notes that a 100W lightbulb would work great for resistive braking in a bike application. 22:02:08 then the car could be partially electric partially gas powered :) 22:02:30 Well, in a regenerative braking system, yes. INstead of driving a resistor, the excess energy is used to recharge batteries. 22:02:40 (which is then recycled when you accelerate again) 22:03:02 in a resistive braking, you can't really say it's part electric part gas, because the electricity is patently wasted. :) 22:03:06 anyway, thanks alot for the convo, i gotta go sleep now, i got school tomorrow :) 22:03:16 Ditto for me, but i'll stay up for a bit longer, I guess. 22:03:22 :) 22:03:24 night 22:03:29 night :) 22:03:36 --- quit: rk ("Good Night") 22:14:10 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:18:24 re Serg_Penguin 22:21:39 Well, I'm going to get to bed. I have school in the morning. 22:21:57 I440r: Until next time . . . ;) 22:22:00 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 22:27:06 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 22:39:21 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 22:39:21 --- mode: leguin.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 23:00:03 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 23:10:58 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 23:15:05 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("The only known silver bullet: Brute Force") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.10.13