00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.10.06 00:56:29 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 01:17:22 --- join: schihei (~schihei@blueice1x.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 02:00:10 --- join: mur (~mur@kyberias.uiah.fi) joined #forth 02:23:46 --- nick: mur -> mur_away 04:24:01 --- join: yasam (~sam@210-54-229-20.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:47:30 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 05:54:55 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 07:10:17 --- nick: mur_away -> mur 08:57:40 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 09:14:58 --- quit: segher ("connection reset by beer") 09:34:33 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:34:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 10:04:57 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 10:05:30 gilbertdeb: !! 10:05:35 mur 10:05:36 terve 10:05:42 OK, I'm off to work. 10:05:44 * mur is at uni 10:05:51 cool :) 10:05:51 i think i go take some photos a bit 10:05:59 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 10:06:03 i made cool fly 10:06:08 i'll take photo of it 10:06:15 fly? 10:06:23 yes 10:06:33 just a sec 10:06:35 irssi lags 10:06:45 ok back 10:07:02 yes from fabric, bluesticker, glue etc 10:07:07 it looks quite much of real 10:07:19 hehe. 10:07:22 does it 'fly'? 10:07:55 too heavy i htink 10:07:55 :) 10:08:07 now i just need a story board for the book 10:08:15 and perhaps new fly, it's quite robust 10:09:42 --- nick: mur -> mur_afk 10:47:17 --- quit: mur_afk ("zzzzz") 12:10:08 --- join: augur (~hulla@200.217.158.174) joined #forth 12:22:45 --- quit: yasam ("dumdumdumdum") 12:23:05 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 12:52:39 --- quit: augur ("...o motobas eh o filho bastardo da xuxa cearence!!!!!") 13:12:51 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D84A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 14:21:11 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 14:31:07 --- quit: TreyB () 18:25:45 heyall 18:38:38 im kinda getting confused about this -- what _exactly_ is a metacompiler: 18:38:39 ? 18:46:55 --- join: fridge (~fridge@dsl-203-33-166-342.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 18:58:16 thiat is the routines for building the forth system 19:19:54 huh? 19:25:04 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 19:25:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:25:18 kc5tja y0!! 19:25:24 kc5tja what exactly is a metacompiler? 19:25:36 (as in, a simple definition) 19:25:47 You always have to ask the hard questions, don't you? 19:25:49 :) 19:25:52 :) 19:26:02 Let's first start with a target compiler. 19:26:14 A target compiler in Forth is like a cross-compiler in C, Pascal, or most other languages. 19:26:26 Don't ask why the difference in nomenclature -- I'm not really too sure myself. 19:26:38 i.e., compiles to a certain arch/OS 19:26:52 But a target compiler takes the Forth software, and compiles it for a new target (even if that target is the same platform as what's running the target compiler). 19:26:56 Correct. 19:27:20 It has a bird's eye view of the software you're compiling, because what's being compiled cannot use the compiler's resources. 19:27:42 That is, target colon definition cannot use the target compiler words, because they could be in a completely different processor architecture. 19:27:54 A meta-compiler, however, is subtly different. 19:28:08 1) A Meta-compiler always targets the same platform as what the meta-compiler is currently running on. 19:28:40 2) A meta-compiler's dictionary structure is 100% the same as the host's dictionary structure, which permits target colon definitions to use target compiler words. 19:29:07 Those two things are about the only differences that really come to mind right now. 19:29:33 Meta-compilation allows a Forth environment to regenerate itself from source. 19:29:45 A target-compiler allows the creation of a whole new generation of Forth. 19:29:59 Meta-compilation tends to be evolutionary, while target compilation is more revolutionary. 19:30:07 Gosh, I wonder if I'm making any kind of sense. :) 19:30:35 you always do, even if i dont get it at first, later on i can always look back and say "yeah, that made sense" 19:31:08 so what if its a compiler written in pygmy forth, which compiles pygmy forth to DOS, and can compile itself? 19:32:00 Meta-compiler. 19:32:20 Because the Forth system can spawn a copy of itself, just as a yeast cell spawns a copy of itself. 19:34:01 But like what I'm doing with FS/Forth, the initial FS/Forth compiler is written in GForth (a platform independent, multi-vocabulary, direct-threaded Forth implementation), but I'm targeting a 80x86 native-code, dual-vocabulary run-time environment which is wholesale uncompatible with GForth's runtime environment. 19:34:33 Hence, I cannot meta-compile in GForth; I must target-compile, because I'm creating a whole new generation of Forths. 19:45:32 ok :) 19:47:37 :) 19:48:00 Sweet! I just secured a make-shift deal with a 6502 SBC hobbiest to offer his SBCs in kit form!! 19:48:29 So, expect a 6502 version of FS/Forth coming soon. 19:48:35 Well, "Real Soon Now." :D 19:48:45 I don't know when, for sure, because I still need to work out a bill of materials and such. 19:51:00 The bummer is that I'll have only 32KB of RAM to play with. But that's where Chuck Moore-style of programming will come in handy. :D 19:51:13 Two vocabularies (cmForth/Pygmy/ColorForth style), and LOTS of overlays. :D 19:51:31 :) 19:51:41 --- join: I440r (~nospam@12-178.lctv-a5.cablelynx.com) joined #forth 19:51:42 16-bit Forth of course. 19:51:44 wel, 32KB RAM is pretty much, i guess 19:51:52 i need a little forth kit to play with :P 19:51:58 arke: With a motherboard hack, I can get it to support 56KB of RAM. 19:52:04 640k aughta be ennuff for anyone 19:52:05 :) 19:52:32 3583 bytes free should be enough for anyone . 19:52:38 We're still debating about price right now. The prices are good, but I want to make sure that I have a complete bill of materials. 19:53:17 I440r: I am in the process of securing rights to resell an associate's 6502 single board computer (SBC) systems as kits. 19:53:27 cool ! 19:53:29 He has two systems, and if all goes well, I will be offering both. 19:53:38 for how much ? 19:53:43 32KB of RAM, up to 32KB of ROM, and (I think) 4K of I/O space. 19:53:53 what area do they target ? 19:53:53 games? 19:53:55 control ? 19:54:14 Hobby use; he uses them for controlling various devices around the house and such. 19:54:33 They require a PC (or any other device with an RS-232 port) to use. 19:54:36 like x10 ? 19:54:52 I don't know anything about X10, except tha tit uses the 120VAC line to control other devices. 19:55:01 right 19:55:06 thats their speciality heh 19:55:19 alot of power meters also do that to keep in touch withg the power company 19:55:30 This device has no innate provisions for controlling 120V devices, though they're relatively easy to implement on an expansion card. 19:56:03 * kc5tja nods 19:56:04 you know what i wanna do? I wanna have a Mac, and a x86/Linux PC, and a Win32 x86 PC, and have them all running, and I'm just utilizing one little terminal from which i can VNC or whatever into all of them : 19:56:05 :) 19:56:27 arke: Well, the kit I'm looking to offer isn't the VNC terminal. :) 19:56:42 BUT, when I make available my own 65816-based design, it's a definite possibility... :-) 19:56:52 that would be good heh 19:56:56 kc5: expansion board? you mean it would need more than a few relays? 19:57:11 brb, gotta reboot XP :P 19:57:30 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:57:48 XeF4: Relays are bad. very bad. They arc, and they present a highly inductive load to the system. Much, much better to use opto-triacs, which in turn drives regular, three-lead triacs. 19:58:44 If you need to use a relay, it's better to use an opto-isolator to drive a triac, and use THAT to actuate the relay's coil. This way, very little of the power surge ever finds its way back to the I/O port of the computer. 19:58:58 *nod* 19:59:31 For most things, though, you don't need the relay. I won 5 out of 6 state-wide science fairs 1st place by running highly inductive loads and 120V lights and such off of a regular, 3-lead triac. :) 19:59:46 The coolest thing I did was run a blender off my Commodore 64. :D 19:59:54 (and the later year, an elevator off the Amiga 500) 20:00:40 thyristors can handle quite high loads, I don't see why a triac couldn't 20:00:59 And a triac is just two back-to-back thyristors, so... :) 20:10:59 * arke considers an x86 assembler for C 20:11:19 How do you mean? 20:11:35 like, you know how pygmy has the assembler? 20:11:49 * kc5tja nods 20:11:55 BX CX MOV, BX POP, BX SHL, NXT, 20:11:57 etc. 20:12:04 similar kind of thing ... but for C 20:12:17 Most C compilers have inline assemblers already. :) 20:12:20 you mean building a C from codedefs or just inline asm? 20:12:26 no 20:13:06 like 20:14:59 well, im not too sure yet 20:15:33 just a bunch of proprocessor stuff 20:15:37 pre* 20:15:53 but it would enable an STC Forth written in C 20:15:59 even without, actually 20:16:23 you mean using C for codedefs? 20:16:46 yes and no :) 20:17:04 Ooh, I see what he's talking about. 20:17:12 I don't 20:17:25 He's saying a function like SHL( BX, 1 ); would compile a SHL BX,1 instruction into the current dictionary entry. 20:17:27 kc5tja is it a good idea, you think: 20:17:27 ? 20:17:40 well, thats part one 20:17:49 what about part two? 20:17:52 STC C Forth :P 20:18:17 As long as you keep your calling sequences in order, there's nothing preventing that. 20:18:42 My legs are still very much upset at me. :/ 20:18:42 pretty unique one, i must say 20:18:52 After standing straight for 8 hours -- I ahven't done that since the military. 20:18:57 kc5tja think its a good idea? 20:19:00 kc5tja heh 20:19:11 arke: As long as it solves a problem, I think it's a plenty fine idea. 20:19:42 Most graphics primitives you find in graphics libraries and such are done with dynamically generated program code, so it's not completely a new idea. Just the Forth part is, really. 20:19:59 kc5tja huh?? 20:21:22 Before the advent of 5000GIPS+ 3-D graphics coprocessors that can solve Fermat's last theorem empirically in less time than it takes a photon to cross the distance of a Hydrogen atom, software had to do sophisticated bit-blits and such. 20:21:36 The best way to accomplish this was to eliminate all decisions from the code path. 20:21:40 I use code templates like that in Forth for my softsynth project 20:22:09 And the only way to do that was to custom tailor little chunks fo code for each and every possible combination of bit-blit parameters. 20:22:37 It's expensive to do that, so the bit-blit libraries would actually generate small subroutines on their stack frames as-needed, execute them, then free them. 20:22:56 interesting :) 20:23:17 * kc5tja hasn't really applied this to line drawing before though -- I should research that, especially when using line-slicing techniques. 20:23:41 * kc5tja nods 20:24:26 hm, pregenerating 1 fragment per slope could actually accelerate things a lot 20:25:03 Well, line run-slicing observes that there are only two choices of runs for everything except the end-points of the lines. 20:25:36 So I figure if you have a 768-line high display, worst-case, you need enough memory to generate a program that calls a 1-pixel routine 768 times. :) 20:26:53 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-37.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 20:28:25 Gahh, it sounds like the 40m band is starting to fade out here. That's a pity. :( 20:29:21 isn't the sun just now setting where you are? 20:29:28 erhm.. or you mean from use? 20:29:42 The sun has set a while ago. 20:29:47 It set before I got out of work. :) 20:29:59 40m supposedly propegates the best during the night-time anyway. 20:30:00 how's work kc? 20:30:22 kc5: that's what I meant 20:30:39 But the thing is, the F-layer of the ionosphere could be actually gaining altitude, which would cause the skip to extend out -- e.g., it's now getting better and better for more distant stations, rather than local. 20:30:57 does anyone use LW at all? 20:31:02 gilbertdeb: Yes 20:31:09 comercially? 20:31:12 gilbertdeb: 160m band is longwave 20:31:16 gilbertdeb: Yes, but fewer and fewer are. 20:31:20 ah I see. 20:31:22 LORAN-C is still active on LW. 20:31:27 WWVB is still active. 20:31:31 I wonder what they'd broadcast on there. 20:31:41 Mostly beacons and radiotelemetry stuff. 20:31:47 Certainly no entertainment. 20:31:57 I used to have a SW radio. 20:32:11 Also, there are quite a number of experimenters who make use of the part-15 band between 138-139kHz and 160-190kHz (depending on what country you're in) 20:32:13 there are a few Russian stations broadcasting on 1600M still 20:32:27 I have an unscratched itch to try out HAM 20:32:39 XeF4: Yes, the Alpha service -- radiolocation, similar to our LORAN and GPS services. 20:32:53 kc5: and a few voice ones 20:33:07 hmmm Loran? 20:33:10 I haven't heard anything. 20:34:01 gilbertdeb: The pre-eminant radio locating technology before GPS became big. Using hyperbolic grid mapping and time differences in received signals to compute a location on a 2-D surface (namely the Earth is assumed to be 2-D for this application). 20:34:11 It's amazing how it works. Really cool technology. 20:34:24 kc5tja, so can one build receivers to use with them? 20:34:26 GPS does the same thing, but it uses the 10GHz band to do it, instead of 100kHz band. :) 20:34:50 gilbertdeb: In theory, yes. However, it's hard to receive them. I have yet to actually hear one. 20:34:57 ah Okay. 20:35:08 so who does receive them? 20:35:22 They're intended for people who are out to sea, not those on land. Though, if you're close enough to the transmitters, they're just as useful on land too. 20:35:45 ah I see. 20:35:45 Mostly military currently, but it used to be used by commercial industry (aviation and nautical). 20:36:06 But remember that GPS is the military's baby, so LORAN's days are numbered. 20:37:14 Listening to some Mexican stations on 40m. 20:37:27 kc5: I can hear such a station right now. 20:37:34 They sound really good -- solid signal, no harmonics... 20:37:35 (voice on 1600m) 20:37:37 I'd like to find out someday about how the alohanet worked. 20:37:40 XeF4: Frequency? 20:37:56 gilbertdeb: As far as I can tell, it's very much like AX.25's basic operation. 20:38:10 XeF4: What kind of antenna are you using? 20:39:31 kc5: this dial is printed in wavelength, 1650-1700M or so 20:39:48 XeF4, are you also a HAM operator? 20:39:52 Geez, that doesn't tell me much. That's a HHUUGGEE range of frequencies. :D 20:39:57 kc5: little telescopic antenna 20:39:58 * kc5tja does some math. 20:40:01 or you have one of those grundigs with lw, mw, sw etc ? 20:40:56 XeF4: AM, LSB, or USB? 20:41:11 Scanning 170kHz to 190kHz. 20:41:13 AM presumably 20:41:24 (BTW, that's smack in the middle of the 160-190kHz band here in USA). 20:41:25 kc5: fwiw, I'm in Turku, Finland 20:42:03 I'm listening in LSB mode right now. 20:43:59 176kHz and still going. 20:44:53 damn 20:44:58 a C program cant save itself :P 20:45:22 Not as such, no. :P 20:47:07 Yeah, I'm not getting anything. 20:47:37 Just lots of interesting noise from various home appliances. :D 20:47:46 :) 20:48:14 arke: There are people who do use the 160kHz to 190kHz band for long-haul communications though, despite that. 20:48:30 heh 20:48:32 interesting 20:48:36 Some people have gotten 1000km distances using slow-speed CW. 20:48:44 0.0 20:48:50 (by slow speed, I'm talking minutes per word, not words per minute) 20:50:05 hehh 20:50:17 i have to code something in asm 20:50:20 i just have to 20:50:23 i have this urge 20:50:26 lol 20:50:40 or 20:50:54 find an emulator or something and learn a new arch 20:51:19 arke, MIPS 20:51:26 go to a flea market and find a C64 20:51:40 or a pdp/11 20:51:50 you can run unix on a pdp/11 :D 20:52:08 you can run lunix on the 64 20:52:25 arke: Well, you can learn 6502 if you're looking to program my box. :) 20:54:04 got a 6502 emulator? 20:54:21 got docs, just need an emulator :) 20:54:24 VICE 20:55:23 arke: VICE is a great emulator. Bar none, the most accurate Commodore-series emulator I've seen anywhere. x64 (the VICE C64 emulator) even emulates the VIC-II chip at the *cycle* level. :) 20:55:45 http://viceteam.bei.t-online.de/ 20:55:55 the reSID emulation isn't half-bad either 20:58:21 :) 20:58:26 what about a z80 emu? 20:58:32 or 20:58:35 6502 :) 20:58:46 Well, I'm not going to use a Z-80 in my kits. :) 20:58:53 http://www.demodungeon.com/oxyron_deus_ex_machina.htm 20:59:01 But if you're interested in programming for a Z-80, then I'm sure there are plenty of emulators for that oo. 20:59:03 (useful for testing VICE =) 20:59:23 there is at least Arnold (emulates CPC) 20:59:24 Hehe :D 21:01:11 Wow, our governor recall made the BBC World Service news! 21:01:26 why are all CPUs just a little weird? why cant there be one not-weird one? :P 21:01:42 it seems that Arnie is gonna be the one 21:01:47 Bull shit. 21:02:15 If Arnie gets in, that will be a seriously bad blow to any non-Republican party representative world-wide. 21:03:18 well, if you follow the whole thing, its Arnie at the top and Cruz about 16% behind or something 21:03:53 Dude, Arni is going to drill this state into the ground so hard... 21:03:58 He's going to be the RUIN of this state. 21:04:13 Just like the conservatives are currently the RUIN of this whole damn nation. 21:04:48 AND, it'll be a national first -- the first time that a single party has ousted an already established leader from office, without any hard evidence of misconduct. 21:05:08 And that means, my friends, that America is every bit as totalitarian as Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia. 21:05:57 ... 21:05:58 wow 21:07:15 Yeah, Wow is right. 21:08:30 The conservatives (especially the religious right!) are nazis. If you aren't Christian, you aren't moral, and thus, have no right being in this country. They favor NO controls on employee exploitation, and large monopolies. Their idea of caring for the environment is finding more places to pollute. Etc. 21:08:54 i agree. 21:09:28 It doesn't take a brainiac to figure this out. There's a reason why 90% of all "educated people" are liberals, NOT conservatives. (Where "educated people" mean people who are at least in college, if not hold college degrees.) 21:09:53 The media is NOT liberal, like they want you to believe. 21:10:04 If it were, do you honestly think we'd be complaining about it being too liberal?!?! 21:10:22 Think about that! That *ALONE* proves they have a totalitarian agenda. 21:10:34 But, I'm digressing pretty badly. 21:10:34 I don't follow 21:10:41 This is a major sore spot for me. 21:10:47 Think about it. 21:10:51 I control the media. 21:10:51 i dont either completely on that last part 21:11:22 Why would I vociferiously complain about me controlling the media, if I already control it? 21:11:56 It's illogical. 21:12:57 hrm 21:13:01 i think i get it 21:13:04 yeah 21:13:57 because I can't be bothered to keep my terms straight and use "liberal" to mean 2 different things in 2 different contexts? 21:14:48 because I, who control it all, mean to make all those dumbasses believe that THEY are in power, not me? 21:14:49 XeF4: What? 21:15:05 so that they dont try to overthrow me or whatever/ 21:15:07 arke: PRECISELY! 21:15:22 That's exactly what's happening. 21:15:40 Considering the Al Jazeera newspaper, which ahs already been shut down once, and is being attacked by the US *yet again.* 21:15:46 Why? 21:15:49 we all know that our senators and reps are being bribed to hell :P 21:19:30 kc5: I've noticed some people use "liberal" to mean "totalitarian" in some contexts (a "liberal application" of authority I guess?) 21:20:01 Yes -- those people are primarily the conservatives. 21:20:45 Because we have a differing viewpoint on how to do things, because we value liberty over government intervention, we are "UNAMERICAN", "TRAITORS," and we "AID THE ENEMY" in this "WAR ON TERROR". 21:21:04 Listen to almost any speech by Dubya. ANY speech. 21:21:10 Ashcroft too. 21:21:26 "If you're not with us, you're against us." -- Ashcroft AND Bush, but in two different speeches. 21:21:33 I mean, what the FUCK!?!? 21:21:53 So I'm a traitor in my own country, just because I hold a differing opinion on how to run the government? 21:22:14 kc5tja, you're gonna suffer from Outrage Overload if you keep this up. 21:22:21 I've learnt to take deep breaths. 21:22:22 hes right tho 21:22:24 it helps a lot. 21:22:37 gilbertdeb: No, I'm fucking sick and tired of being alienated. 21:22:49 kc5tja, me too. 21:22:57 That's the whole damn problem with this country -- so many people "tune out", "calm down," because they thing good old-fashioned anger isn't healthy. 21:23:00 I'm happy to do what I can, but they're actually making me sick. 21:23:16 Whatever. 21:23:23 kc5tja, I've considered printing out little tracts with intros to logic and a list of the major fallacies and how to tell what they are. 21:23:33 * kc5tja nods 21:23:48 kc5tja, to hand out on buses, to put everywhere. 21:24:11 but most of the miamians are as apathetic as can be, as they came here as economic refugees primarily. 21:24:21 so very few of them care about anything to do with gov't. 21:24:25 this is really a foreign country. 21:24:34 Yes, it is. 21:24:40 USA doesn't exist anymore. 21:24:50 heh, you should come to miami and see then :) 21:24:50 * kc5tja is wholeheartedly in support of state secession. 21:24:58 I don't have to. 21:25:05 CA-ians are lazy too. 21:25:28 kc5tja, people think political involvement means putting a flag on your front door and on your cars. 21:25:38 also it means 'patriotism' 21:25:44 whereas what it really means is jingoism! 21:25:45 I have a book that discusses that. 21:25:52 Yep. 21:25:52 kc5tja, by who? 21:26:05 Bill Maher 21:26:10 state secession? 21:26:22 "When you ride ALONE, you ride with Bin Laden!" <-- the name of the book. 21:26:27 i think in about 20 years, there wont be USA, but about 20 states :P 21:26:30 arke: To receed from the union. 21:26:41 yeah ,i know :) 21:26:51 I thought I rode with Hitler when I rode alone 21:26:58 * XeF4 needs to keep up with the times more 21:27:16 kc5tja, ah I know that one. 21:27:19 I do'nt have a copy though. 21:27:55 XeF4, propaganda was the order of the day on both sides of ww2 21:28:26 XeF4: THis is a book full of propeganda posters, turned around to be more relavent to today's situation. 21:28:34 what really gets me is that (no I don't support adolf) germany alone is fingered for anti-semitism whereas it was thickly spread throughout europe and the arab world 21:28:55 XeF4: The whole book is about how, in WW1 and WW2, America was highly mobilized and eagerly supportive of our troops, but today, we're ... well, apathetic just isn't strong enough a word. 21:29:08 that too is the work of propaganda. 21:29:09 more black slaves were killed in the USA than Jews in all of europe 21:29:16 ever thought of that? 21:29:24 and then "america is sooo great" 21:29:27 The book touches on that, plus the fact that WMD simply haven't been found, so this whole war was a *LIE* to the people. 21:29:36 WMD? 21:29:43 Weapons of Mass Destruction 21:29:44 arke, sure, and we support freedom, and when saddam kills some enemies, we bomb him for that . 21:29:54 arke, the hypocrisy just makes me @#$SDF@#$@ 21:30:24 kc5tja, the WMDs are ofcourse in this country, being manufactured by lockheed etc :( 21:30:40 this conversation is bringing me down :( 21:30:49 gilbertdeb: Not all of them. Others are in North Korea. 21:30:55 India and pakistan too. 21:31:06 kc5tja, yeah but we're not bombing them. 21:31:06 they are being manufactured here, so that in about a month or 2 they ship them out there, and then "find" them and pretend they were theirs 21:31:09 We need an arsenal. But goddammit, we need to use it with REASON, but on a whim! 21:31:13 we're only bombing all those we're sure don't have them. 21:31:15 and WE have them. 21:31:42 gilbertdeb: Yes, because our military has learned not to go after countries where their civilian population are as much behind the soldiers as their government is. 21:31:52 kc5tja, musharaf has WMDs, he came to power via a coup d'etat, but we schmooze him. 21:31:58 Vietnam taught them the value of what happens when the people support their armies. 21:31:59 kc5tja, hehe. 21:32:51 Anwyay, to cheer things up. 21:32:53 kc5: yes, it means the people are incapable of democratic reform and should be annihilated 21:33:10 I am making plans to distribute a 6502-CPU-equipped SBC with a Forth embedded in its ROM. 21:33:19 --- quit: Robert (Remote closed the connection) 21:33:26 kc5tja, cool! 21:33:32 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h31n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 21:33:41 The first model will offer 256 bytes of free I/O space (I think), 32K-256 bytes of RAM, and up to 32KB of ROM (though I expect only 4KB to be the real Forth kernel). 21:34:04 kc5tja, what do you intend it's use to be? 21:34:05 32K-256 = 32512 bytes of RAM 21:34:15 Whatever you want to use it for. 21:34:20 It's a kit SBC. 21:34:37 You build it yourself, with instructions I provide in PDF form (or, for an additional charge, in paper form). 21:34:52 kc5tja how much does _that_ one cost? 21:35:01 Then there is a Forth users manual that I'll write, including touching on proper coding etiquette in Forth, and of course, introduction to basic 6502 machine language. 21:35:03 kc5tja, just put it on a CD 21:35:20 gilbertdeb: I was going to make all print materials available on-line. 21:35:25 arke: A price hasn't been set yet. 21:35:25 ah ok. 21:35:43 kc5tja whats a good guess? 21:35:56 arke: I'm going to work hard to keep it under $75 for the kit though, but I can't make any guarantees right now. It's still too early, since I have to find suppliers and such. 21:36:17 ok 21:36:34 and i can just plug this into my box, and then hack away? 21:36:48 A rough estimate is $40 for the PCB, $5 for the CPU, $5 for the VIA chip (for SBC-1; $10 for SBC-2, since it has two VIAs), $5 for the RAM, $2.50 for the ROM, etc. 21:37:05 Depends. The SBC-2 has a true RS-232 port that you can null-modem to your box. 21:37:17 The SBC-1 requires a special adaptor cable, which plugs into the parallel port, IIRC. 21:37:19 (cost reduction) 21:37:32 kc5tja, you could market it as an educational device and give eg of the sorts of devices you could embed it in. 21:37:32 ACIA chips for the 65xx CPU line are rare, and expensive. 21:37:50 but alas, there really aren't enough electronics geeks overall :( 21:38:19 I'm also planning a 24KB RAM upgrade, so it will have 56KB of RAM. 21:38:28 (but it will eat into the ROM space though) 21:38:59 kc5tja so i can use it over a terminal window or such? 21:39:13 gilbertdeb: Yes, I'd like to do that, but I cannot predict what everyone will want to do with it. 21:39:26 kc5: can I attach a 6581 without too much trouble? 21:39:27 The best I can do is release "Application Notes" for it after it's been released, based on feedback from customers. 21:39:32 kc5tja, mostly hints to help them dream. 21:39:58 XeF4: If you hang a 1MHz crystal off the CPU, sure. 21:40:40 gilbertdeb: Well, where do I begin? What can't you do with something like this? 21:40:50 Besides streaming video and audio. 21:41:18 it should run quite fast, if its 8 mhz 21:41:25 It's not 8MHz. 21:41:28 It's much slower. 21:41:36 how much is it? 21:41:39 Remember, I didn't design it. 21:41:47 arke: I already said above. Re-read the above. :) 21:41:57 1mhz? 21:42:09 Oh, you should have said how fast is it? 21:42:13 I thought you were asking about price. 21:42:24 heh 21:42:27 so it is 8mhz? 21:43:01