00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.09.26 00:46:09 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:08:27 --- join: LOOP-HOG (TofuMonste@207.191.240.94) joined #forth 01:12:08 --- quit: LOOP-HOG (Client Quit) 01:16:46 --- join: schihei (~schihei@p5085D803.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 01:16:52 Hi. 02:06:53 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 02:07:00 Hi serg 02:07:03 hi 02:18:35 * Serg_Penguin is installing printer from repair 02:19:16 they feed it w/ too crappy paper, almost toilet one 02:19:49 :D 02:22:22 LJ 5L - thunk by wrong bodypart, jams all time coz vertical feed 02:22:32 Heh 02:22:35 We got one of those 02:22:51 Mom got it for free from work because it doesn't work very well. 02:22:58 But it's good enough 02:23:01 ha-ha ! 02:23:28 sure, good enough to print 1 sheet a day ;)) 02:24:25 actually, my one after repair needs a big deal of paper to press the 'paper loaded' lever... 02:24:48 or if 1 sheet, press it forcibly inside 02:25:03 if it's hard enough, not toilet ;)))) 02:42:08 Hmm. 02:42:14 What's a smudged word? 02:52:07 doG know, maybe 'hidden' 02:55:04 * Serg_Penguin crashes :((( 02:55:14 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 04:08:06 --- quit: schihei (Client Quit) 04:16:00 --- join: yasam (~sam@210-55-46-133.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:26:24 --- quit: mmanning (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:31:26 --- nick: rO|_ -> rO| 04:43:16 hi 04:44:01 would somebody please try www.forthfreak.net , i think it's down now 04:44:10 was up 5min ago 04:46:32 shes up 04:53:33 Yes, it's up. 04:56:41 which ip? 04:57:57 213.133.108.8 04:58:25 ok now up again 04:58:32 thx 04:59:01 :) 05:04:57 --- part: yasam left #forth 05:08:32 --- join: yasam (~sam@210-55-46-133.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 05:35:09 --- join: mur (~mur@h31n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:56:46 --- quit: mur ("back in the evening") 06:22:00 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~z@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 06:23:01 does one know any book/tutor on writing design document, prior to any coding ? 06:23:20 --- join: mmanning (~mmanning@saturn.vcsd.com) joined #forth 06:23:21 i'm weak on it, and wanna do an exercise 06:23:25 nick I440r-wrk 06:23:25 hi 06:23:32 does one know any book/tutor on writing design document, prior to any coding ? 06:23:32 try gamedev.net 06:24:10 depends what you mena 06:24:36 i mean 'general' not games only 06:26:28 depends what you mean by design document, there is some convention/ 06:26:36 ? 06:27:54 i can't well answer even this - total newbie in organized design, was coding 'from head' all the time 06:28:16 maybe, description of all features, 'layers' of program and i-faces ? 06:28:38 both inner and outer - user, OS, network 06:28:56 some think writing the user manual is good to start with :) 06:29:36 then... I have seen a wild variety, wide ranging in formality and form 06:30:51 so what worked for you ? 06:31:15 user manual = just one interface and some features, incomplete ;)) 06:32:07 www.gamedev.net doesn't open ;)) 06:33:24 well, I have been studying formal methods, but I guess thats not what youre looking for, mostly I just code off the top of my head too (I am a man of extremes ;) 06:33:52 so what's your greatest proj 'out of head' ? 06:34:07 mine were just tiny utils or games like 'sokoban' 06:35:17 utilities, puzzle games, little prog languages, and a weird drawing app 06:35:29 like most people all small 06:36:19 K of source ? 06:36:35 huh? 06:36:36 me - under 10 in Forth, under maybe 100 - in C 06:36:39 kilobytes 06:37:21 C - lotsa typing, tabbing and parens, and even more cut'n'paste ;(( 06:37:22 <500 06:37:27 BRB 07:11:28 kc5tja would say extreme programming is the way to go but I dont know anyhting about that 07:12:33 heh, any doc on XP ? 07:15:56 well I just had a look on http://www.extremeprogramming.org/ doesnt actually seem to give much info on requirements and specifications, and some of the design methodology requires more than one person, so perhaps not so usefull 07:19:37 hmm.. i dig some RU text, seems like makes sense 07:21:59 yes some old hat forth ideas ;) 07:35:38 heh, i need a customer ;)) 07:36:45 yeah, thats the trouble with methodologies from industry, customers, team members, managers, feh 07:38:26 i can just take anyone who likes/needs the kind of program, and ask him to be a 'customer' in GNU project 07:39:10 what are you designing? 07:49:12 nothing by now 07:49:39 but i wanna just learn to do big proj's alone or be a part of collective proj 07:49:57 maybe, i'll do one of my ideas-fix ;) 07:50:17 like turn-based action-RPG game ;)) 07:50:38 YA ;) 07:52:49 --- join: segher (~segher@blueice1a.de.ibm.com) joined #forth 07:53:18 Hi, IBM:er 07:53:23 hello 07:53:39 long time since i was here :-) 07:54:43 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:55:53 Yes, I don't even remember you. 07:55:59 Hi tathi 07:56:49 "smudge", what is that? 07:56:49 Hi Robert 07:57:00 as a forth word? 07:57:04 Yes. 07:57:08 makes it show up in the dictionary 07:57:17 on old-fashioned systems, SMUDGE flips the "findable" flag on the latest word 07:57:46 Hmm.. so you can "hide" words by smudging them? 07:57:46 yes 07:57:50 Okay, thanks. 07:58:13 newer systems tend to have a REVEAL instead 07:59:20 When is it used? 07:59:31 during compilation. 07:59:45 while compiling a word, that word is not yet findable 07:59:56 Oh. 07:59:57 (unless you say RECURSIVE) 08:00:22 I see, thanks. 08:00:35 you're welcome 08:01:13 Isn't it a better idea to make the word being defined do tail-recursion? 08:01:35 RECURSIVE just makes the word findable 08:01:44 but it's stupid :-) 08:01:51 it's better to just use RECURSE 08:02:10 Hmm.. does recurse ever use the call stack? 08:02:15 sure 08:02:28 Then that might be a bad idea. :D 08:02:52 it's like with _every_ call: you can only do tail-calls, when yuou _are_ the tail, i.e., the last word in the definition 08:03:10 Yes? 08:03:59 well, RECURSE just creates a call to the currently compiling definition itself. sometimes you can optimize that away; sometimes you can't. 08:05:51 Ah, yes.. But if you want to optimize it away, I think using the name of the word being defined is a pretty good way. 08:06:10 why? 08:06:10 And then RECURSE could be used for recursion using the call stack... 08:06:15 Why not? :) 08:06:23 what's the difference? 08:06:35 Between? 08:06:49 the _compiler_ will decide whether to do tail recursion; RECURSE doesn't have anything to do with it 08:07:10 Oh, but that's only true if you have an optimizing compiler. 08:07:27 sure. if not, there _is_ no way to do tail recursion. 08:08:05 Why isn't there any way? Why not just compile a jump to the start of the word being defined? 08:08:08 --- nick: mmanning -> I440r-wrk 08:08:30 Oh... I get your point. 08:08:31 Heh. 08:08:47 I was thinking of how to do it with RECURSE. 08:08:55 Then you wouldn't need an optimizing compiler. 08:09:02 well, that's what a tail-call optimizing compiler does: when it compiles EXIT (or SEMIS or ;S or whatever you call it), it just changes the last call it did, into a jump 08:09:24 well, you'd need lookahead 08:09:39 oh, i see 08:09:55 you want a word that says "jump back to start" 08:10:12 tail recursion ? i have word RE jumping to start of currently defined word 08:11:05 \ : (re) latest name> here - 1+ , ; 08:11:05 \ : re compile branch (re) ; immediate 08:11:05 \ : ?re compile ?branch (re) ; immediate ( bool -- , at runtime ) 08:11:06 that only solves tail recursion, not general tail calls, though 08:11:15 from my old game 08:11:46 Serg_Penguin: Yes. 08:11:52 er 08:11:55 segher: Yes. 08:12:08 Sorry, nickname completion confused that. 08:12:24 i use it for kinda like loops, not tail recursion 08:12:38 BEGIN ... AGAIN :-) 08:12:48 i just factor loop body to a word 08:12:58 : is begin, RE is again 08:13:04 hehe 08:13:20 ?; is conditional EXIT 08:13:27 to complete the toolset 08:13:37 : ?; if r> drop then ; ( bool -- ) 08:14:38 : BRANCH r> cell+ dup @ + >r ; 08:14:47 hihi 08:15:02 i even had ONEXIT' word, but rethunk design and trashed it 08:16:12 it was realy weird 08:21:56 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 08:30:21 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:31:37 Hi Herkamire 08:35:40 hi Robert :) 09:00:53 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:00:54 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:05:39 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 09:12:25 mornin kc5tja :) 09:12:37 re 09:14:00 kc5tja does XP have any virtue for lone wolves? 09:14:44 yasam: Everything except pair programming, in my experience. But it takes extra discipline, because you're taking on the role of programmer, coach, and tracker, all at the same time. 09:16:28 hmm I might read more 09:17:29 Even if you don't agree with its tenets, it's always good to educate yourself on it. You'll be amazed at just how much philosophy it shares with the basic Forth philosophy. 09:17:35 And yet, how different it is at the same time. 09:19:52 yes Ive already noticed, many people probably think its new ;) 09:22:51 I think I would benefit emencely from pear programming 09:23:51 Not quite; it's just the intensity that's really new. 09:26:54 Ive read some papers on experience using peer programming in introductory software engineering cources, the results were quite good 09:27:39 yasam: you mean pair programming? 09:28:01 Pear Programming is pretty decent too. :D Tasty too. 09:28:20 oops yes 09:28:36 I meant pair programming :) 09:28:48 --- join: murr (murr@baana-62-165-187-43.phnet.fi) joined #forth 09:28:54 although programming your peers to do your work often has good results 09:29:17 isn't there something called "peer programming"? or is that when you sit out on the warf with your laptop? 09:29:49 what kind of laptop? 09:29:49 that would be pier programming 09:30:04 maaan. I gotta learn to spell sometime ;) 09:30:49 --- nick: murr -> mur 09:31:18 Herkamire: did you check out that pdf link yesterday? 09:31:54 * mur was investigating today 17" powerbook 09:31:57 it's quite large 09:32:01 yasam: yeah. interesting 09:32:06 I read some and skimmed the rest 09:32:15 and the moving pad doesnt' seem to be good, or then i was using it from weird position 09:32:16 interesting idea to create definitions on the stack 09:32:25 /join #macintosh 09:32:26 :P 09:32:59 mur: the track pad? 09:33:17 the plate where you move finger 09:33:22 yeah 09:33:24 but keyboard seemed to be working okay 09:33:33 any experience about powerbooks? 09:33:42 I've used them 09:33:51 never owned one 09:34:01 I should write a doc on comparing and contrasting the forth and formal communities they either totally agree on something or totally disagree 09:34:01 although, with quick glance, the powerbook keyboard looks very strong, but feels like plastic toy 09:34:06 i have one here. i'll have a new one next week :-) 09:34:16 the trackpad takes a little while to get good at. and I always have to turn off the tap to click thing 09:34:19 * mur is going to get one 09:34:41 the keyboard and the trackpad work really, really well. 09:34:42 mur: Im on a TiBook 09:34:52 problem i noticed was that the cursor was jumping. is there osx feature which snaps to gui elements? 09:35:03 no 09:35:06 there are such inmouse drivers in multiple OS, "snap to button" 09:35:13 never happened to me 09:35:16 sounds like a proken trackpad 09:35:24 I had one like that in my ibook 09:35:25 I've never had that kind of behavior from a glidepoint. 09:35:30 sent it back under warranty 09:35:42 it was demo laptop in one firm 09:35:57 17" older powerbook. they didn't have 15" new one, which i went to look for 09:36:00 * yasam liked his old trackball and cant think why they changed 09:36:01 But here's the deal with those: you can't put too much pressure on the pad -- otherwise, the tip of your finger looks like a big blob on those things, and so, it doesn't REALLY know what you want to do (only some vague idea) 09:36:03 apple makes good keyboards 09:36:09 The lighter the touch you have with those things, the more accurate it is. 09:36:50 also for very small moves you can tilt your finder a bit 09:37:13 yasam: how have trackballs changed? 09:37:21 Herkamire: *nod* 09:37:25 I wouldnt buy anyhting which has just come out from apple, many have had bad experiences 09:37:40 fridge: I meant changed to trackpads which suck 09:37:55 yasam: yeah, their first versions of things are sometimes quirky 09:38:29 most often not though 09:38:31 same with everything really 09:38:49 new car models have revisions to fix quirks 09:38:50 although quirky isnt what some of the victims would use 09:39:12 I couldnt think of the right word I didnt really mean victims 09:40:57 my paint has bubbled, my case is live. not nice 09:41:20 --- join: crc (~crc@ACAD0F9C.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 09:41:23 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 09:41:28 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:42:27 arrg. OK irssi is a pain to get configured properly 09:43:10 it's putting server messagen for ircnet.org in this window 09:43:17 yasam: A live case? As in it tingles when you touch it? If so, that implies either (a) the hot/neutral wires in your electrical socket is backwards, or (b) you have a faulty power supply. 09:43:53 --- quit: Herkamire (Client Quit) 09:45:34 I cant imagine that the wires are crossed such a problem would have surely manifested itself by now? 09:45:58 Your question isn't making sense to me. Can you rephrase? 09:46:10 apple says it is not a safety issue piss off 09:46:49 I beg to differ. It's very much a safety issue. If not for you, for the computer. 09:46:55 if the wires were crossed in the socket, I would have had problems prior to getting a powerbook 09:46:58 CMOS isn't designed to work with a hot chassis. 09:47:15 I'm just saying those are the only two things that will cause that problem. 09:47:44 Does the problem persist if it is plugged into a different wall socket? 09:48:39 surely if it was the powersupply, others who have had the same problem would have said to get another, and so would apple if they didnt replace it 09:48:50 yes 09:49:01 Then I'd get a new power supply for it. 09:49:18 Personally, it sounds like it's somehow shorting a critical connection to the chassis. 09:49:50 I didnt notice the problem for ages, because beleive it or not, I never use my computer with my feet on the ground :) 09:50:00 Heh 09:50:22 so anything you want to tell me about powerbooks? 09:50:27 still haven't placed order 09:50:54 just order one, you'll be very happy with it 09:51:00 ;P 09:51:06 only go to apples support forums and see if there are complaints apple isnt dealing with 09:51:22 i thought ibook is quite ugly on the top 09:51:26 the roundy edges of laptop 09:51:32 monitor and the connecting way 09:51:39 of monitor and cpu 09:52:05 cept the monitor size and processor, there are not much difference with them 09:53:04 ls 09:53:38 there are a _lot_ of differences 09:55:11 dont believe how long they say battery power will last 09:55:32 when my tibook was new, battery lasted 8 or 9 hours. 09:55:34 does it consume battery if you have laptop connected to constant supply? 09:55:42 tibook is pc? 09:55:55 tibook = powerbook titanium 09:56:02 segher really? 09:56:18 OS version? 09:56:19 heh. ti is abbreviation for texas instruments 09:56:22 really. but now the battery has died -- only lasts 40 minutes :-( 09:56:28 the calculator firm 09:56:39 using OS9 or Linux 09:56:51 mine will last 5 hours on os 9 and 3 on X 09:57:10 i've heard that if you load battery before it's empty it might shorten battery's life 09:57:25 that's not true for powerbook batteries 09:57:49 I wonder if this live case business adversely affects battery life 09:58:00 though, was it litium batteries or what. anyways the more expensive dont care of such. 09:58:09 --- quit: segher ("weekend!") 09:58:16 case business adversely? 09:58:49 no grok 09:59:07 I wonder if the fact that my case is live... 10:00:13 somehow drains battery power 10:00:34 case is live? 10:00:49 you are moving the laptop around? 10:01:11 as in ellectically chrged 10:01:25 uh? 10:01:33 ellectricitically 10:01:37 now i understand, you speak kiwi english :) 10:01:46 electrically 10:01:51 hmm 10:01:52 heh 10:02:16 come again, case is live? 10:03:29 as in when I touch it I ground it 10:03:45 oh! 10:03:55 so the electricity leaks to covers! 10:03:55 indeed 10:04:49 yep: and apple says its not a safety issue live with it (though it seems dangerous to me) 10:05:21 still thinking of buying from them? 10:06:27 its so strong I can hear it when I move my finger around 10:07:55 it's 1. ethical decision (for not wanting to use pc's because i'dhad to use windows because there is no other alternative for graphics works) and 2. because i hope that the comptuer will work better than the pc's which dont work often at all 10:08:01 even it's a bit more expensive 10:08:35 huh macs are big in graphics work 10:09:56 I support apple because the industry needs healthy competition and I do think apple makes a big difference 10:11:06 ms owns some apple stocks 10:11:06 :P 10:11:22 microsoft and apple has some contract of "sharing inventions" afaik 10:11:35 that means that windows and osx will have some similar new features 10:11:39 though, features dont make concept 10:11:43 ms doesnt want apple to die 10:11:57 I think that agreement has expired 10:12:13 or some agreement has 10:12:41 ms need virtual competitor 10:12:54 and graphics world has money to pay for apple more priced products :) 10:13:09 we have some competitions at school which prizes are some 5000 eur 10:13:10 :P 10:13:13 perhaps it would be good if apple died, then what would happen 10:13:16 sponsored by firms 10:13:51 nice 10:15:07 1984? 10:15:46 * yasam abhors hysterical raisons 10:17:04 Heh. 10:17:07 Hi mur, yasam 10:17:14 hello 10:17:33 Hyvää iltää 10:20:45 hej Robert 10:21:39 :) 10:21:51 mur, have you written any Forth programs? 10:22:00 no :p 10:22:11 Have you written ANY programs? 10:22:17 yes 10:22:26 What kind of programs, in what languages? 10:23:01 irc program some day, memo 10:23:13 problem like i n all my projects is, that i never finish them 10:23:24 i start them again in few years and redo them and they become better 10:23:32 i'll eventually finish them in years 10:23:56 has anyone written abitrary precision arithmetic in forth? 10:24:19 but i like forth idea because it's not traditional 10:24:20 Not I... but I would like to do so. 10:24:36 Maybe I'll have a shot at a bignum library for the Forth I am working at. 10:24:37 perhaps i'm artistic coder ;) 10:24:51 Hehe. 10:24:59 i saw weird imaginations last week 10:25:15 i coudl imagine great emotional neutral network 10:25:19 it had about 100 lins 10:25:26 lines and they described my feelings to other people 10:25:40 though, i coudlnt understand my thoughts completely, but it was interesting idea 10:25:51 odd 10:25:55 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:25:57 after that i wished one coudl project 3d holograms to real world 10:26:12 imagination = what you imagine while awake 10:26:30 re Herkamire 10:26:39 hi rO| :) 10:26:55 --- quit: crc ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.") 10:28:29 i might have been a little bit sick then 10:28:31 phyiscally 10:28:48 i had hot forehead 10:28:55 and was not feeling well 10:30:17 programming, and half-awake sick dreams dont mix well 10:30:53 Haha, right. 10:31:18 yasam: how do you know? 10:31:35 from experience 10:31:56 yasam but leaving programming out, and it matches very well 10:33:19 I dont know they go on and on with no end comprehendable 10:33:34 depends how sick you are 10:34:05 * mur has 3 level understanding 10:34:08 no 3 level thinking 10:34:28 - theoretical and scientifical researching 10:34:30 - imagination 10:34:43 - practical thinking (which i seem to lack a lot sometimes ;) 10:35:04 you must merge your levels of mind to find enlightenmwnt my son 10:35:59 why? 10:36:24 um, the chicks dig enlightenment? 10:36:31 imagination gives me my dreams and research makes me able to do them 10:36:38 forget the practical thinking 10:36:51 well i think i charmed one girl this week already. that's enoguh for a week 10:36:52 :) 10:37:24 "chicks dig enlightenment" hehe :) I like that 10:37:48 Herkamire: are you sure ;-) 10:37:53 ? 10:38:22 checks dig confidence, and when you make them feel good about themselves 10:39:57 rO|? 10:40:34 yes, maestro? 10:40:38 ;-) 10:40:53 * mur did IQ test last weekend 10:40:57 i got only 145 :P 10:41:08 mensa wants 148. it was not mensas test though 10:41:33 what's mensa? 10:41:59 hmm, I did little test thingy on mensa site out of curiosity and couldnt get the language questions, but got the rest right 10:42:16 org which accepts 2% of the most intelligent people 10:42:24 which is measured of g-factor intelligence 10:42:27 that is general intelligence 10:42:32 intelligent feh 10:42:43 g-factor intelligence 10:42:59 how long does the test take? 10:43:00 IQ does not imply you use intelligence any way 10:43:02 well I dont know the term, so ill belive you 10:43:06 Herkamire depends 10:43:22 mensa's ought to last 1,5 hours to 2 hours 10:43:27 but there are 30 mins tests 10:43:30 How do I replace something on EVERY line in vim? 10:43:42 Every line that contains the expression, of course. 10:43:43 Robert: :%s/... 10:43:46 then there are some www tests which last for few mins but the results may be very wrong 10:43:48 Oh, thanks. 10:43:54 I did 30 min test, (and got 27) 10:44:27 27!! 10:44:29 :) 10:44:33 100 is average 10:44:35 out of 30 10:44:42 hmm 10:44:54 27/30 does not tell anything 10:45:59 I couldnt even think what word could go in front of these words to make other words: code, man, office :( 10:46:50 code does not necessary mean programming 10:46:58 and in such context i doubt it is related to programming 10:47:23 well thats not what I was saying, just that it was so easy 10:47:33 (its post) 10:47:35 is it ____code and ____man and ___office? 10:48:24 ok 10:48:30 i first thought dress 10:48:37 well that does not measure anything 10:48:52 it only is of cultural related test 10:48:58 http://www.tieteenkuvalehti.com/aivot/IQteststart.asp 10:49:00 finnish test 10:49:07 or it's dannish actaully but on finnish page 10:49:20 it requires some thinking to understand how the interface works :D 10:49:27 sadly :P 10:49:39