00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.09.22
00:05:05 <kc5tja> Well, I think I'm going to get to bed.  I'm starting to get bleary-eyed.
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01:45:51 <Klaw> That humane swf file is large because all of the content is loaded at once
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05:18:33 <mur> hello
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05:20:32 <mur> serg :)
05:20:40 <Serg_Penguin> hi
05:20:44 <mur> what's up?
05:21:01 <Serg_Penguin> i just got a mobile phone, Siemens M50 ;)
05:21:02 <mur> games progressing?
05:21:06 <mur> :)
05:21:09 <Serg_Penguin> no ;))
05:21:26 <mur> i'm using ocmputer that has someone's work on background
05:21:28 <mur> >:)
05:21:37 <mur> they look actaully very nice
05:21:52 <mur> zebras eagles
05:21:54 <Serg_Penguin> progressing girls, photo etc...
05:21:59 <mur> heh
05:22:12 <mur> process life not ready, please wait..
05:23:23 <mur> haev you new ideas?
05:23:48 <Serg_Penguin> yeah, fractal draw program
05:24:03 <Serg_Penguin> famous Fractint gives only one fractal at a time
05:24:06 <mur> idea only or coding?
05:24:16 <Serg_Penguin> idea only
05:24:32 <mur> fractint with multiple dractals drawed on each others`?
05:24:37 <Serg_Penguin> it'll take hell of effort to code GUI thing like Corel Draw
05:25:12 <Serg_Penguin> yeah, many layers, alpha masks, transforms etc..
05:26:04 <mur> uh
05:26:11 <Serg_Penguin> it can be 'approximated' in GIMP, but once you render you can't change params ;((
05:26:36 <mur> so that you'd have multiple layers with alpha and they coudl change all the time?
05:27:01 <Serg_Penguin> heh, i thought of a static pic
05:27:15 <Serg_Penguin> but movie will be even more kewl
05:27:19 <mur> saving some work on composing the on each other?
05:27:29 <mur> INSTEAD ups. of doing that in some program like gimp?
05:27:54 <Serg_Penguin> sure
05:28:06 <mur> aha
05:28:17 <Serg_Penguin> in GIMP, once you hit OK, you have your fractal cast in bitmap and can't change params
05:28:19 * mur havn't really found out what' sso interesting about fractals :)
05:28:30 <mur> ah fractal filter?
05:28:58 <Serg_Penguin> i want to be capable of changing params of any level at any moment, nd proggie redraws
05:29:14 <mur> aha
05:29:15 <mur> a
05:29:19 <mur> aga
05:29:20 <mur> :)
05:29:44 <Serg_Penguin> just like text layers in Photoshop 7 - you may edit text after you enter it
05:30:04 <mur> text layers have been in most vers of photoshop like that :)
05:30:14 <mur> (lazy gimp programmers ;P)
05:30:32 <mur> and dyn_text layers mix everything.
05:30:38 <mur> gimp is far to technical
05:30:52 <mur> you need to specify size of layer. program shoudl not ask such silly questions
05:31:14 <mur> asking how many per cent of memory is used is almost too tecnical too
05:33:02 <mur> having hard disks specified is almost too technical
05:33:10 <mur> having partitions marked becomes too technical
05:33:54 <mur> information shoudl not be shown unless it has some real value for user at the certain point of usage and only then and info that may have some impact in user action, such as if disk is nearly full et cetera
05:35:03 <mur> you dont need to know all that kind of things
05:35:19 <mur> it's technical. it's made for engineers not for to use, and 
05:35:20 <mur> well
05:35:27 <mur> this is just unipmortant
05:35:30 <mur> unimportant
05:36:02 <mur> you shoudl talk of sometign more interesting 
05:36:06 <mur> i think....
05:36:06 <mur> :)
05:39:31 <Serg_Penguin> i think of writing universal config tool, to compile projects w/ various options
05:39:43 <Serg_Penguin> just like menuconfig in linux kernrl
05:40:01 <mur> okay
05:40:09 <mur> i'd be going soon
05:40:19 <Serg_Penguin> happily, i don't code anything i think, or else i won't see sunlite ;))
05:40:36 <mur> ;)
05:42:55 <yasam> anything or everything ;)
05:43:52 <mur> well i think understanding is more important of grammar. won't shoudl be wouldn't see. but that is not important
05:44:04 <Serg_Penguin> everything... ha-ha-ha !
05:45:03 <yasam> mur sure, but its still humurous
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06:18:54 <Serg_Penguin> re Robert 1
06:24:49 <Robert> Serg_Penguin :)
06:31:33 <Serg_Penguin> do you code in IsForth ?
06:35:18 <Robert> Yes.
06:41:17 <Serg_Penguin> ;) what did you code ?
06:41:42 <Serg_Penguin> i wanna write a CONFIG to compile IsForth w/ differnt options
06:41:59 <Serg_Penguin> now i do it by commenting out strings in main FLOAD file ;))
06:43:56 <Serg_Penguin> IsForth is really bloated ;((
06:44:20 <Serg_Penguin> i commented out bells'n'whistles and reduced size twice
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07:13:56 --- topic: set to 'somebody think of a reason to invite Chuck Moore to this channel so that he may give another online fireside chat. || but where would we put the fire?' by hovil
07:19:27 <Klaw> it's a virtual fire
07:19:40 <Klaw> much like the virtual fireplace i'd have if i could afford a 23" lcd screen
07:20:22 <yasam> not that old fire effect again ;)
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08:00:56 <dsmith> SEDforth!
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08:44:46 <snow_richard> hello
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08:45:16 <Speuler> hola
08:45:21 <snow_richard> beta release of michael2 just uploaded. No docs yet. http://www.shreve.net/~rsnow/index.html
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08:54:38 <Herkamire> michael2 has some documentation in the source file (which you can see right in your browser at the above link)
08:55:38 <Herkamire> looks like a nice little custom forth in C in progress
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09:38:17 <hovil> hmm, someone is selling a 1084
09:38:22 <hovil> I must obtain it!
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11:05:36 <mmanning> who was dsmith ?
11:05:48 <mmanning> that might have been my old recruitor!!!
11:05:51 <mmanning> dave smith :)
11:05:55 <mmanning> dunno - could be
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12:16:15 <hovil> at the last the companies I've worked at, I have worked alongside a David Smith
12:16:25 <hovil> its not an uncommon name ;)
12:18:36 <bashfire> never heard. could you please explain?
12:19:03 <Herkamire> bashfire: read the log
13:38:57 <bashfire> ok
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14:44:54 <mmanning> wheres futhin
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14:48:51 <suprdupr> im almost there with my code for my new push oriented compiler
14:49:06 <Robert> Push oriented compiler?
14:49:20 <Robert> mmanning: Guess ge got tired of trolling. :)
14:49:47 <suprdupr> instead of call1 call 2 call3 ret or call1 call2 jmp3
14:49:55 <suprdupr> why not push 3 push 2 jmp1
14:49:58 <suprdupr> ;o)
14:50:58 <suprdupr> it comes along nicely, im trying to make it easier for risc computers
14:51:10 <suprdupr> as x86's almost risc...
14:52:32 <suprdupr> instead of compiling calls, i only push their address on the data stack
14:52:39 <suprdupr> thats one kind of word
14:52:55 <suprdupr> the other kinds are based around this postponing concept
14:53:14 <suprdupr> my red defining words are placed at the end of the line
14:53:20 <suprdupr> they compile pushes if any
14:53:45 <suprdupr> then transform the last one into a jmp, or even a short jump if the displacement is less than 128 bytes
14:54:29 <suprdupr> for magenta (machine code) words, i do a dup on the data stack, save the pointer to compiled code, do the same thing as before
14:54:47 <suprdupr> and then put the address left in the dummy entry saved before
14:54:55 <suprdupr> i use the return stack for this
14:55:07 <suprdupr> i wanted to compile calls
14:55:25 <suprdupr> but anyway...even short jump optimization isnt worth it
14:55:31 <suprdupr> one more conditional...
14:56:03 <suprdupr> i could even simply compile a ret at the end of each word, so fallthrough would be easier to do
14:56:44 <suprdupr> im trying stuff, on paper but anyway im searching elegance, when i got lot of ideas i leave it alone and come back after
14:57:17 <suprdupr> and I got an accreditation to do science experiment with kids from 5 to 12 years old
14:57:43 <suprdupr> here its called "Club des Débrouillards" and the experiments are great
14:59:01 <suprdupr> its supposed to exist around the world, maybe only in french speaking countries i dont know for sure
14:59:14 <Robert> 23:51:07 < suprdupr> as x86's almost risc...
14:59:29 <Robert> Is that sarcastic, or what CPU are you comparing it to? :)
14:59:50 <rpc> x86 micro-ops are risc-like
15:00:13 <Robert> But that's nothing the average programmer ever touches.
15:00:19 <rpc> definitely
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15:07:12 <suprdupr> anyway ill be back one day
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15:41:44 --- topic: set to 'somebody think of a reason to invite Chuck Moore to this channel so that he may give another online fireside chat. || but where would we put the fire? || make fire a bot :)' by arke
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16:36:08 <arke> y0
16:46:08 * arke is away: depositing check, brb
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18:37:54 <arke> Suzanne: hello
18:38:01 <Suzanne> evening arke
18:38:18 <Suzanne> haven't been in for a while, been busy :/
18:38:48 <arke> :)
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19:34:39 <kc5tja> re
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19:39:30 <I440r> hi
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19:41:32 <LOOP-HOG> has someone thought up a reason to invite chuck yet?
19:42:32 <kc5tja> I don't think so.  :)
19:42:44 <LOOP-HOG> how about because he said he would
19:42:46 <kc5tja> But I did hear back from Chuck that he might do some work on his website in a month or so.
19:42:51 <kc5tja> (fixing broken links and stuff)
19:42:57 <LOOP-HOG> thats nice
19:43:10 <kc5tja> Here's hoping he remembers.  :)
19:43:30 <LOOP-HOG> the internet seems at time to be half broken anyway
19:43:42 * kc5tja is slightly pissed off with himself.
19:43:48 * kc5tja needs to change the chain on his bike.
19:43:54 <LOOP-HOG> ??
19:44:17 <kc5tja> A bike chain will wear out after 500 to 1500 miles, depending on road conditions (how dirty it is).
19:44:45 <LOOP-HOG> it also doesnt help when you leave it out in the rain all winter ;^)
19:44:46 <kc5tja> I didn't know this until just today, and easily explains why my bike is starting to skip sprocket teeth now.
19:45:04 <LOOP-HOG> do you oil your chain regularly?
19:45:14 <kc5tja> No, that's why I'm pissed with myself somewhat.
19:45:19 <LOOP-HOG> or atleast after you ride it through the rain
19:45:22 <kc5tja> I was never instructed to do so.
19:45:26 <kc5tja> It doesn't rain here.
19:45:36 <kc5tja> If it did, it'd probably last a lot longer, as the roads would be cleaner.
19:45:51 <kc5tja> I keep it indoors when not in use anyway.
19:45:54 <LOOP-HOG> they can rust though
19:46:04 <kc5tja> It doesn't rust here either.  :)
19:46:08 * kc5tja lives in a desert.
19:46:21 <kc5tja> San Diego, though coastal, is a desert.  It's green only because of irrigation.
19:46:29 <LOOP-HOG> it rains here in the cooler months
19:46:42 <kc5tja> At any rate, I hope I didn't do irreparable damage to the drive train.
19:46:46 <LOOP-HOG> east side wet side, west side dry side
19:46:55 <LOOP-HOG> probably not
19:47:10 <kc5tja> Yeah, probably; it only recently started skipping teeth.
19:47:28 <kc5tja> Still, 500 to 1500 miles seems awfully SHORT for what basically amounts to be a steel belt.
19:47:49 <kc5tja> I mean, it seems having a rubber V-belt would be longer lasting -- at least you can retension the pulleys if it stretches.
19:47:50 <LOOP-HOG> its exposed
19:48:13 * kc5tja nods
19:48:25 <LOOP-HOG> road dust was never the best of lubricants
19:48:28 <kc5tja> Just one more reason to persue my CVT design for the bike; it's NOT exposed.  :)
19:48:46 <LOOP-HOG> probably i should put my bottle of chain oil next to the door so i remember to do that tomorrow
19:48:59 <kc5tja> But just oiling the chain isn't enough.
19:49:04 <LOOP-HOG> let us know how it goes, if you do that
19:49:06 <kc5tja> You have to degrease it and clean it before re-lubing it.
19:49:30 <kc5tja> LOOP-HOG: Yeah, I will.  I'm not building it to race -- I know it won't be 98% efficient, but I do know it'll be high 90s.
19:49:36 <LOOP-HOG> well, i figure that i won't get that deep into it
19:49:40 * kc5tja is building it more for practicality and fun-factor.
19:49:55 <LOOP-HOG> sounds good
19:50:04 * kc5tja likes biking everywhere he can.  I like the solitude and inner-peace it brings me.
19:50:10 <kc5tja> The connection to the road, the mechanism, etc
19:51:04 <kc5tja> The other thing I want to research is electromagnetic braking -- not so much regenerative braking as in a car, but more along the lines of generative braking, where some power is bled off to drive brake lights, and the remainder is driven through an air-cooled resistor.
19:51:09 <kc5tja> Might be too heavy for the bike though.
19:52:01 <kc5tja> One advantage of that system is that there needn't be any moving parts involved.  Good for slowing the bike down when going down a steep Californian hill, thus saving brake pads.  :)
19:52:24 <LOOP-HOG> i thought about that
19:52:32 <LOOP-HOG> i NEVER thought about that
19:52:46 <kc5tja> Heh :)
19:52:59 <kc5tja> I admit, the idea came to me only after reading about the 2004 Prius in the local newspaper yesterday.
19:53:11 <kc5tja> I always knew about regenerative braking, but i never thought to apply it in a bicycling setting.
19:53:18 <LOOP-HOG> if i had the money i might get one
19:53:31 * kc5tja too.
19:53:38 <kc5tja> I do a LOT of commuting between San Diego and Oceanside.
19:53:53 <kc5tja> At 60MPG freeway, I would cut my gas consumption by a factor of three.
19:54:19 <kc5tja> For the city, it doesn't much matter for me, as I bike to most places I need to go locally.  :D
19:55:00 <LOOP-HOG> there was some videos of a lithium ion powered bike that i have an url to and now it wont' pull up the site
19:55:11 <kc5tja> :(
19:55:30 <LOOP-HOG> hopefully it will be back in a day or so
19:55:40 <kc5tja> So are people actually working on lithium ion batteries for motorcycle/scooter/bike applications?
19:55:51 <kc5tja> I mean, serious development, and not just product demos/toys?
19:55:56 <LOOP-HOG> i beleive so'
19:56:01 <LOOP-HOG> yes
19:56:02 <kc5tja> Sweet
19:56:31 <LOOP-HOG> infact the local electric car club went in as a group to buy some first gen BIG ASS lithium ion batteries
19:56:44 <LOOP-HOG> i'm waiting for them to be able to build the controlers to be able to use them
19:56:49 <LOOP-HOG> let me try to find that link
19:56:51 <kc5tja> E-car club, eh?  That's cool.  Do people build their own e-cars?
19:57:06 <LOOP-HOG> yes
19:57:07 <kc5tja> I assume it's not restricted to cars?
19:57:11 <LOOP-HOG> conversions
19:57:13 <LOOP-HOG> no
19:57:30 <kc5tja> No, it's not restricted, or no, it IS restricted?  :)
19:58:08 <LOOP-HOG> they are interested in any kind of electric vehicle
19:58:18 <kc5tja> http://fluid.power.net/fpn/const/const005.html -- this is the transmission I'm looking to use on the bike.
19:58:26 <kc5tja> LOOP-HOG: Cool.  :)
19:58:31 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.thunder-sky.com/
19:58:48 <LOOP-HOG> click on the X to close out of the box for d/l ing the chinese font
19:58:55 <LOOP-HOG> there is an english section
19:59:28 <kc5tja> I need to switch browsers; it needs Shockwave.
20:00:52 <LOOP-HOG> you might not be aware of something about lithum vehicles batteries that i will pass on to you
20:01:44 <LOOP-HOG> alot of guys actually take a gob of small commercial cells and combine them into large packs, so your battery back might consist of thousands of small cells
20:01:55 <LOOP-HOG> that is not what this is, it is one big huge honkin battery
20:02:23 <LOOP-HOG> they have a 600AH battery on this page
20:02:44 * kc5tja nods
20:02:53 <kc5tja> Hye, I'll be right back.  Roommie needs to check e-mail.
20:02:56 <kc5tja> Hey even
20:03:01 * kc5tja is away: for a bit.
20:03:02 <LOOP-HOG> also note the operating temperature, its actually better than the batteries onboard the MER rovers, the rovers that are going to mars now
20:10:52 <LOOP-HOG> brb
20:12:17 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:09:16)
20:12:58 <kc5tja> Cool.  Hope things go well for your group.
20:13:05 * kc5tja wishes there was an e-car club down here.
20:13:15 * kc5tja would like to check out a club like that some day.
20:14:25 <LOOP-HOG> i'm not actually a member of the club
20:14:50 <LOOP-HOG> i went down to one of their exhibits a few months back
20:14:57 * kc5tja nods
20:15:06 <LOOP-HOG> I have a gob of alternative vehicle links
20:15:12 * kc5tja wouldn't be allowed as a member anyway -- I'm just not willing to depart with my rotary engine.  :D
20:15:47 <LOOP-HOG> one more thing, here is a link to an electric sports car made in the U
20:15:51 <LOOP-HOG> in the US
20:15:54 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.acpropulsion.com/
20:15:58 <kc5tja> t-zero
20:16:02 * kc5tja knows about it.  :)
20:16:07 <LOOP-HOG> they are doing the thousands of cells thing
20:16:08 <kc5tja> I want one.  :D
20:16:10 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:16:24 <kc5tja> I would *love* to drive that between home and college.
20:16:27 <LOOP-HOG> only like 150K or somthing like that :^)
20:16:27 <kc5tja> That thing would just rock.
20:16:34 <kc5tja> And I'd piss off every Mustang owner out there.
20:16:42 <kc5tja> Yeah . . . "Only."  :)
20:16:46 <LOOP-HOG> that would be funney
20:16:48 <kc5tja> Maybe when I'm rich.. :)
20:17:12 <kc5tja> When driving around UCSD campus, I was shocked at how many people had Mustangs, and how many of them thought they were such bad-asses because of it.
20:17:27 <kc5tja> Hate to tell them, but a 250HP engine just isn't "powerful" for a car that weighs almost 4000 pounds.  :)
20:17:49 <kc5tja> Meanwhile, a 1992-1995 Mazda RX-7 with a 255HP rotary would smoke one of those heavy beasts.
20:18:09 <LOOP-HOG> do you have some rotary engine links i could have?
20:18:19 <kc5tja> (note: not all Mustangs are that heavy, or have such inadequate engines, but still...  a V6 Mustang just ain't gonna impress me.  If I were to get one, I'd go for a V8).
20:18:44 <kc5tja> LOOP-HOG: Not TOO many.  Most of the ones I used to have aren't valid anymore.  But, this I go to regularly: http://www.rotary-news.com
20:19:07 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:19:16 <LOOP-HOG> i could test my rotary links 
20:19:36 <kc5tja> Sorry -- http://www.rotarynews.com -- NO DASH.
20:20:23 <LOOP-HOG> i can't find them right this second
20:23:02 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.monito.com/wankel/wankel.html
20:23:10 <LOOP-HOG> i thought maybe i had more, duh
20:24:42 <LOOP-HOG> the Moller Skycar uses rotary engines
20:24:55 <kc5tja> Remember the news site is rotarynews.com -- NOT rotary-news.com -- I accidentally put the dash in.
20:25:01 * kc5tja should have just cut-n-pasted.
20:25:06 * kc5tja nods
20:25:09 <LOOP-HOG> no problem
20:25:43 <kc5tja> Did you get a chance to look at that torque converter I posted earlier?  :)  The one for the bike?
20:25:54 <kc5tja> I know it's not a 100% true CVT, but for a bike, it'd be plenty sufficient, I think.
20:26:10 <LOOP-HOG> i would have to read it, i'll look at the pics, just a min
20:26:16 <kc5tja> Yeah.
20:26:37 <kc5tja> It's an interesting read.
20:27:51 <LOOP-HOG> can you actually make one yourself?
20:28:15 <kc5tja> Yep.
20:28:23 <kc5tja> It's just an arrangement of levers, basically.
20:28:44 <kc5tja> You can actually demonstrate the principle of the transmission to yourself with just a baseball bat.
20:28:48 <LOOP-HOG> mainstream transmissions are quite complicated
20:28:57 <kc5tja> Or a broom works well too.
20:29:03 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:29:12 <kc5tja> Take the broom handle, and place the tip on the floor.
20:29:24 <LOOP-HOG> .
20:29:33 <kc5tja> With your hand gripping the handle about three inches off the floor, start to swing the broom back and forth very slowly.
20:29:41 <kc5tja> The tip won't move if you do it slowly enough.
20:29:55 <kc5tja> But as you increase the speed of oscillation, you'll find the tip will become very difficult to control.
20:30:14 <kc5tja> If you go fast enough, you'll find the tip and your hand are moving at the same rate, and the broom itself stays relatively still.
20:30:22 <kc5tja> s/broom/brush/
20:31:54 <LOOP-HOG> i think it would help if i read it, i'm not versed in mechanics really
20:32:43 <kc5tja> I'm just saying, if you wanted to prove the principle to yourself, all it takes is an upside-down broom.  :)
20:33:11 <LOOP-HOG> ok
20:33:34 <LOOP-HOG> i think that i'll go read this and then do some coding
20:33:39 <kc5tja> Heh :)
20:33:39 <kc5tja> OK
20:33:48 <LOOP-HOG> so, i'll see you guys around.
20:33:51 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ()
20:54:33 <arke> y0 all
20:55:02 <kc5tja> re arke
20:55:21 <arke> whatsa up?
20:56:31 <kc5tja> A combination of daydreaming and practical design.
20:56:48 <arke> :)
20:57:20 <kc5tja> I came up with a bike fairing design that more or less looks like a mid-80s Corvette or 1979 RX-7, depending on how you look at it.  :)
20:58:13 <kc5tja> That's the "daydreaming" part.  :)
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21:08:11 <arke> :)
21:18:58 <kc5tja> I got FS/forth's target compiler to support numeric literals, so now that that's done, I'll actually begin coding FS/Forth itself now.  :-)
21:19:13 <kc5tja> (First step is to get a legal ELF executable generated)
21:22:55 <kc5tja> Oh well, I gotta go finish some homework.
21:23:03 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
21:24:15 <arke> what does his quit message mean?
21:57:50 <Sonarman> it's a bunch of abbreviations used by ham radio operators when using morse code
21:58:25 <Sonarman> and kc5tja is his ham-radio callsign
22:00:04 <arke> heh
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