00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.09.08
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02:05:12 <Klaw> hmmm explicitly exposed
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04:30:06 <snow_richard> Good morning.
04:30:29 <snow_richard> brb -- getting my first cup of the evil coffee.  :)
04:33:16 <snow_richard> back
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07:11:10 * arke is away: Going to sch00l now. Later .... Funth is the l33tz0r!!!
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07:52:29 <ianP> mm, evil coffee.
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12:11:04 <gilbertdeb> was anyone at #figuk?
12:17:35 <kc5tja> No
12:17:44 <kc5tja> I never seem to know when it happens, anyway.
12:17:51 <gilbertdeb> I really wonder what they say over there.
12:18:12 <kc5tja> We need a spy.  :)
12:18:12 <gilbertdeb> I've missed their timing consistently for 6 mths since I first heard about them :(
12:18:16 <gilbertdeb> heheheh
12:18:32 <kc5tja> Yeah, that's pretty much the way I've experienced it too.
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14:43:08 <Speuler> g'day
14:44:24 <Robert> Hi Speuler
14:44:59 <Speuler> god dag rob_ert
14:45:03 <kc5tja> re
14:45:13 <kc5tja> Speuler: Did you catch my first design pattern on the Wiki?
14:45:18 * kc5tja thinks it looks pretty good.
14:45:30 <Speuler> ' DesignPattern catch  ?
14:45:31 <kc5tja> I wrote it while I was borderline asleep though, so I'm going to review it later this week and revise the text.
14:46:06 <Speuler> the return pattern page ?
14:47:43 <kc5tja> Yeah.
14:47:58 <Speuler> looks like you're not a friend of throw
14:48:29 <kc5tja> You would be incorrect to say that.  I've used exception handling extensively in previous projects.
14:49:37 <Speuler> looks kind of .. involved .. for exiting a word early
14:49:47 <kc5tja> It's just R> DROP
14:51:21 <Speuler> and bringing the stack(s) into a defined state before early exit. remember not to early exit in loop, ar between >r  r> 
14:52:16 <kc5tja> My code early-exits from within a loop.
14:52:24 <kc5tja> (fw? has a BEGIN/AGAIN loop)
14:53:24 <Speuler> ok. remember not to early exit a loop except when using fs/forth
14:54:13 <kc5tja> Note that the source is valid GForth code.
14:54:23 <kc5tja> I can't imagine why you're so averse to the pattern.
14:55:06 <Speuler> i'm averse because i state potential problems ?
14:56:22 <kc5tja> Well, it does require the return stack actually to be used for holding return addresses (something, believe it or not, ANSI Forth does NOT require).
14:56:54 <Speuler> "exit" would be tolerable for ANS
14:57:14 <Speuler> except that it need to be in the word itself
14:57:18 <kc5tja> Right.
14:57:26 <kc5tja> And there are times when it is just not convenient to do that.
14:57:26 <Speuler> rather then in the called exiting word
14:57:44 <kc5tja> Either it complicates the stack usage, or it requires some other out-of-band inter-word communications that makes the system hard to grok.
14:59:26 <kc5tja> The point to the ReturnPattern is to clarify code and control flow in those circumstances.  However, as I note in Consequences, it can also lead to bad code very easily.  Hence, it must be used with some skill.
15:01:34 <Speuler> wiki accounted for 5121 hits as far
15:04:53 <Speuler> at the very bottom of the wiki start page, there's a link to the graphical september stats
15:05:12 <Speuler> just below the extreme programmng links
15:12:09 <kc5tja> Cool.
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15:48:18 * arke is back (gone 08:37:06)
15:49:38 <arke> y0 all
15:50:42 <arke> kc5tja: y0
15:50:58 <arke> while in school, i came up with some more ideas.
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15:51:44 <Stepan> hi there
15:54:05 <arke> y
15:54:05 <arke> 0
16:16:56 <kc5tja> re
16:18:46 <arke> kc5tja: cons cells :)
16:21:02 <kc5tja> Huh?
16:21:37 * Stepan is proud to finally have a wordlist/vocabulary implementation working
16:21:50 <Stepan> even though after all the implementations, the last one was really trivial
16:22:39 <arke> kc5tja: cons cells.
16:22:59 <arke> kc5tja: are you familiar with lisp (or some dialiect, like scheme)???
16:23:06 <kc5tja> Yes.
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16:26:21 <arke> kc5tja: well, instead of hard arrays, they use cons cell list
16:26:22 <arke> s
16:26:25 <arke> like
16:26:43 <kc5tja> Yeah, they're only singly-linked lists.
16:26:45 <arke> instead of 1, 2, 3, its (1, (2, (3, nil))) or something like that
16:28:53 <Stepan> like in haskell
16:29:39 * kc5tja does still like arrays though.
16:30:59 <Stepan> the data organization depends on the problem you want to solve..
16:31:14 <Stepan> anything else is a lossy abstraction
16:33:11 <kc5tja> Well, ideally, Forth's vocabularies are best represented as a list.
16:33:26 <kc5tja> But I'm using arrays because they're more convenient.
16:33:34 <arke> kc5tja: my plan is to provide both.
16:34:09 <Stepan> kc5tja: so do i, it's a simple vocabulary stack.
16:34:55 <Stepan> but taking the small amount of memory you need for additional depth, it's just not worth the list overhead
16:35:22 <kc5tja> Well, I allocate space for 1024 words in the Forth dictionary -- about 20KB total.
16:35:40 <kc5tja> I just picked that number as it seems convenient.
16:36:16 <Stepan> and a vocabulary depth of 1024 is something you will barely challenge
16:36:49 <kc5tja> Especially with my particular coding style, which makes extensive use of overlays.
16:37:06 <kc5tja> I'm constantly recycling dictionary space (and hence, vocabulary pointers)
16:37:17 <Stepan> for running a system from flash i use 64 currently, but i guess even that is plenty
16:37:30 <kc5tja> 64 what?
16:37:36 <kc5tja> 64 words?  Or 64 blocks?
16:37:41 <Stepan> cells
16:37:50 <Stepan> words even
16:38:06 <kc5tja> That's about 4 screens worth of definitions, no?
16:38:39 <Stepan> probably, but the dictionary space is not limited by those 64words
16:38:40 <kc5tja> (I figure 16 maximum definitions per screen, assuming a 64x16 typical screen layout)
16:38:45 * kc5tja nods
16:40:37 <Stepan> your search list of vocabularies (wordlists) is just limited to 64, which in an open firmware systems with a device tree means that the tree can have a depth of 64, including the root node.
16:40:56 <Stepan> that is something that will barely happen.
16:41:32 <kc5tja> OOOoooohhhh....
16:41:33 <kc5tja> I see.
16:41:34 <Stepan> and it only takes 256 bytes.
16:41:40 <kc5tja> I thought you were talking about the very structure of the vocabulary itself.
16:41:47 * kc5tja only has two vocabularies -- forth and compiler.
16:41:58 <kc5tja> I'm saying that the Forth vocabulary itself is limited to 1024 words max.
16:42:14 <Stepan> uh.. thats not a lot.
16:42:42 <kc5tja> That's plenty.
16:43:26 <Stepan> so you have a token threaded forth?
16:43:30 <kc5tja> No.
16:43:34 <kc5tja> It's native code.
16:44:34 <Stepan> then i guess the value of 1024 could be easily changed in case one would exceed the 1024 word boundary?
16:44:56 <kc5tja> You'd have to recompile the Forth kernel to do it, but yes, it's as simple as changing a single CONSTANT definition.
16:45:04 <Stepan> i guess with so many definitions you need more than one dictionary or something went severely wrong
16:45:17 <kc5tja> But in the many years I've been coding in Forth, not once have I ever approached more than 300 words, let alone 1000.
16:45:45 <kc5tja> Plus, compiler words are in their own vocabulary (itself probably around 256 words or so).
16:45:59 <kc5tja> (also easily changed)
16:48:57 <Herkamire> my forth has 470 definitions.
16:49:01 <Herkamire> I don't reuse them though.
16:49:22 <Stepan> mine has 398 currently..
16:50:03 <Herkamire> that's for an editor, assembler, and forth kernel and forth system
16:50:25 <Stepan> and this is basically the user interface of an openfirmware system, without most of the debugging extensions.
16:50:58 <Stepan> so many words are just there to provide compliance to any existing code
16:51:05 <Herkamire> Stepan: are you writing something on top of OpenFirmware? or writing something similar to OpenFirmware?
16:51:29 <Stepan> Herkamire: I'm trying to write a free openfirmware implementation
16:51:33 <Herkamire> oh, that will add a lot of extra crap :)
16:51:39 <Stepan> www.openbios.org
16:51:49 <Herkamire> you are working on openbios?
16:51:50 <Stepan> but the web page is slightly outdated still
16:51:56 <Stepan> yes..
16:52:05 <Herkamire> cool :) I've looked at that
16:52:36 <Herkamire> sounds cool. although I won't get involved because I work on apple hardware that has OF already :)
16:52:42 <Stepan> since today the forth kernel does dictionaries. which enables me to work on creating a device tree.
16:52:55 <Herkamire> cool stuff
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16:53:13 <Herkamire> dinner time. bbl
17:01:50 <SDO> http://oopsla.acm.org/oopsla2003/files/  <--- check it out
17:02:20 * kc5tja is making the Forth kernel, and that's it.
17:02:27 <kc5tja> Even the user interface is treated the same as a Forth application.
17:04:57 <Stepan> uh.. 2:10
17:05:01 <Stepan> time for bed i guess
17:05:04 <Stepan> night..
17:05:54 <kc5tja> Laters Stepan
17:06:05 <kc5tja> SDO: Anything I should be looking for in particular?
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17:18:14 <uuter> SDO: http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/apple2/unsorted/FINDER.S.SHK
17:18:24 <uuter> IIgs Finder src
17:18:27 <uuter> ~~~
17:19:45 <kc5tja> How does one decode SHK files?
17:19:49 <kc5tja> Esp. on Linux?
17:20:02 <uuter> uh, not sure about Linux
17:20:19 <uuter> ShrinkIt is the format
17:20:29 <uuter> Nufux or somthing
17:21:00 <kc5tja> Hmm
17:22:03 <uuter> looks just like a dissasembly
17:22:28 <uuter> or they were too hardcore to comment
17:31:27 <kc5tja> Hmm...I might have to download and install an Apple II emulator of some kind.  They have a copy of Spy vs Spy on this site!!
17:31:31 * kc5tja used to LOVE that game!
17:32:02 <fridge> anyone have the url for xcolorforth?
17:32:14 <Speuler> fridge, url is on the wiki
17:32:21 <Speuler> under ForthSystems
17:32:32 <Speuler> www.forthfreak.net
17:32:50 <fridge> thanks
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17:39:49 <fridge> xcolorforth doesn't like my usb keyboard
17:40:25 <Herkamire> ahh food :)
17:41:15 <Speuler> fridge, just updated it with a more recent version
17:41:20 <Speuler> 1 minute ago
17:43:06 <Speuler> hope this one does better
17:43:18 <fridge> it tries to open fb0
17:43:30 <fridge> gets permission denied then quits =)
17:43:37 <fridge> I don't think framebuffer is setup on this machine
17:43:42 <Speuler> ah
17:45:44 <Speuler> works here
17:45:51 <Speuler> ./compile
17:45:54 <Speuler> ./xcf
17:46:07 <Speuler> in an x window
17:46:19 <fridge> my bad
17:46:27 <fridge> no DISPLAY env
17:47:08 <fridge> keyboard works
17:47:12 <fridge> cheers
17:47:18 <Speuler> glad
17:53:26 <Speuler> fridge, 'ive added a link to the colorforth keyboard layout under the ColorForth link
18:00:15 * kc5tja tries to get an Apple IIgs emulator working.
18:00:22 <kc5tja> I got it to boot BASIC in its ROM.
18:00:26 <kc5tja> That's about as far as I got.
18:00:28 <kc5tja> :)
18:04:17 <uuter> you need a system image
18:14:34 <fridge> how do you figure out what block you are looking at in cf?
18:24:22 <Herkamire> fridge: yellow number in bottom left corner
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18:27:58 <fridge> why didn't I see that before
18:32:16 <Herkamire> because it didn't change when you opened the editor
18:33:19 <kc5tja> uuter: I have a system image, but it's compressed.  I can't decompress it.
18:33:32 <uuter> a .2mg image?
18:33:45 <uuter> what emulator do you have?
18:34:06 <kc5tja> KEGS-SDL.
18:34:15 <kc5tja> uuter: No, not a .2mg image.
18:34:19 <kc5tja> It's SDK format.
18:34:28 <uuter> thats no good
18:34:41 <kc5tja> I just plain cannot find a single .2mg or .dsk format GS/OS disk images.
18:34:45 <uuter> thats not an emulator image
18:34:59 <kc5tja> No, it's a "shrunk" DSK format file.
18:35:08 <kc5tja> That's why I'm trying to find a decompressor for it or something.
18:35:12 <kc5tja> But apparently, no go.
18:35:14 <kc5tja> They just don't exist.
18:35:39 <uuter> .sdk is a shrinkit disk image
18:36:58 <kc5tja> Ummm...yes.  I believe I just said that.
18:36:59 <kc5tja> :)
18:37:10 <kc5tja> Do you know where I can find .2mg files or .dsk files of GS/OS?
18:38:08 <uuter> http://www.inwards.com/%7Efairway/
18:39:44 <uuter> im looking for the GS/OS image
18:39:58 <uuter> http://www.inwards.com/%7Efairway/game_pages/2image_archive/gs_hard_drive.zip
18:42:42 <fridge> ack
18:42:59 <fridge> tried to download colorfort video from ultra technology, died after 40MB
18:43:04 <fridge> can't resume
18:43:58 <kc5tja> Good grief -- where'd you find that file?  I'm still navigating the site.  :)
18:44:05 <kc5tja> (and downloading via wget too, but still, ...)
18:45:34 <kc5tja> Wow.  Could the download go any slower?
18:46:05 <uuter> some games don't include the DOS, any require GS/OS
18:46:17 <uuter> that site was down for the longest time
18:47:24 <kc5tja> heh
18:47:35 <kc5tja> Well, it's just past 350K now.  :)
19:08:46 <kc5tja> uuter: It's not working.
19:08:50 <kc5tja> The emulator doesn't boot from it.
19:09:05 <uuter> did you edit the beasty config file?
19:09:33 <Herkamire> I already wasted a couple hours today figuring out how to get xmame to work.
19:13:35 <kc5tja> Yes
19:13:42 <kc5tja> s7d1 = GSOS.2mg
19:13:56 <kc5tja> (which I renamed to GSOS.2mg because I thought that might have something to do with it)
19:14:18 <uuter> i don't have much experiance with KEGS
19:16:03 <kc5tja> partls claims it has a bad header.
19:27:59 <uuter> bad download?
19:33:11 <kc5tja> No errors during download.
19:33:22 <kc5tja> Besides, it uncompressed and unarchived just fine.
19:33:45 <kc5tja> well, uncompressed.  It didn't have an archive that i could tell.
19:55:38 * kc5tja sighs
19:55:46 <kc5tja> OK, in Apple II Basic, how do I get a listing of files on a disk?
19:55:53 <kc5tja> Like, I have a disk "mounted" (or so I think) in s6d1.
19:55:59 <kc5tja> I want to see what files are on it.
19:56:01 <kc5tja> How do I do this?
19:56:06 <uuter> cat ?
19:56:16 <kc5tja> I tried "cat", but I get a syntax error.
19:56:56 <uuter> my Apple-DOS sucks
19:57:07 <kc5tja> gahh
19:57:11 <kc5tja> Why does this have to be so hard?
19:59:18 <kc5tja> What does "The Blade" mean?
19:59:26 <kc5tja> Is that Apple's equivalent of a system crash?
19:59:49 <uuter> uh, not heard of it
19:59:49 <kc5tja> I see it when I try to boot the computer with a disk in the S6D1 drive (specifically, the Spy vs Spy disk)
20:00:15 <uuter> the apple going side-to-side?
20:00:48 <kc5tja> No.
20:01:03 <kc5tja> It says, "The Blade", then fills the screen with '2',  and halts dead.
20:01:36 <uuter> what ROM version?
20:01:48 <kc5tja> 01
20:01:55 * kc5tja will try 03 next.
20:03:51 <kc5tja> That fixed it.
20:03:52 <kc5tja> Weird.
20:03:52 <kc5tja> :)
20:03:52 <SDO> kc5tja, you need a ROM 03 board?
20:03:59 <SDO> Oh, you doing the emulation?
20:04:05 <kc5tja> SDO: No, I'm trying to run an emulator.
20:04:08 <kc5tja> :)
20:04:14 <uuter> hi SDO
20:04:18 <SDO> hey guys!
20:04:23 <SDO> and girls, if there are any here.
20:04:25 <uuter> do you hack IIgs?
20:04:43 <SDO> do I had IIGS :)  Well, not currently, but I do run B2TR called Sweet16 on BeOS.
20:05:01 <uuter> Yeah, early fork of Bernie ][ the resuce
20:05:05 <SDO> I also used to do a lot of 6502 and 65x16 code 10-20+ years ago.
20:05:18 <SDO> Eric did it, and a nice port too.
20:05:21 <uuter> do you have any of the not so available tools?
20:05:22 <SDO> runs really well on the PPC mac.s
20:05:24 <uuter> yeah
20:05:37 <SDO> uuter, which tools are you referencing?
20:05:43 <SDO> I have some books I took pictures online.
20:05:48 <uuter> Say, ORCA APW etc
20:05:56 <SDO> http://sdobooks.dyndns.org:8080/
20:06:00 <SDO> Yes, I do own those packages.
20:06:04 <SDO> They are in storage somewhere.
20:06:18 <SDO> I have all the ORCA stuff, the M/C/Pascal (as I recall)
20:06:22 <uuter> the guy is still trying to sell them
20:06:22 <SDO> I also have a ton of APDA stuff.
20:06:29 <SDO> uuter :)
20:06:42 <uuter> hi?
20:06:50 <SDO> Yes, Eric is still trying to sell them.
20:06:52 <uuter> you are the said guy are you?
20:06:55 <uuter> not Eric
20:06:59 <SDO> what guy?
20:06:59 <uuter> the ByteWorks dude
20:07:13 <SDO> Byteworks guy sold off his inventory to Eric as I understand it.
20:07:13 <uuter> that not Sheppy is it?
20:07:31 <uuter> he just put in on that Syndicomm clearing house
20:07:32 <SDO> Byteworks turned sales over to Sheppyware/Sindicomm
20:07:37 <SDO> oh
20:07:43 <uuter> man, that really sucks
20:07:43 <SDO> I thought Eric was dealing with it all.
20:07:48 <SDO> Well, yes and no.
20:07:56 <SDO> It sucks because you want it free.
20:08:04 <SDO> It doesn't suck cause some people want to buy it :)
20:08:14 <SDO> Just depends on what end of the asswhipping you are on.
20:08:22 <SDO> I'm for giving it away.
20:08:24 <uuter> the Byteworks guy said there was not enough demand to continue
20:08:32 <SDO> Yes, that is correct.
20:08:35 <SDO> He tried, and gave up finally.
20:08:45 <uuter> yeah, which should say somthing
20:08:51 <SDO> I told Mike to get it all together and press a CD, some 4-5 years ago, he did, and I didn't even bother buying one.
20:09:02 <uuter> Opus ][
20:09:07 <SDO> That was my idea.
20:09:12 <uuter> they are selling the source too
20:09:16 <SDO> yes.
20:09:38 <uuter> i would totally dig that, but can't spend that sort of money on an Apple IIgs
20:09:43 <SDO> The APDA tools are licensed still I believe from Apple, and thus you wn't ever get them (well, ever is a long time) free.
20:09:44 <SDO> I agree.
20:10:00 <SDO> Eric told me it was like 700 USD for the total catalog when I asked about 6-8 months ago.
20:10:22 <uuter> yeah, Syndicomm sell the APDA stuff too
20:10:25 <uuter> sells
20:10:35 <SDO> (Eric is really pissed at me right now, so I won't even be talking to him for a long time, had to do with some review software he sent me and I reviewed it and then put it up online to sell, he got really bent about it, so I pulled down the auction)
20:11:04 <uuter> oh
20:11:14 <SDO> I understand Eric's position, and he makes a living at it, so the market is tiny to the Nth degree, so he has to be over protective of things.
20:11:22 <SDO> I dont have the time to be 'right' about it, so I just let it go.
20:11:26 <SDO> It was inconsiquential.
20:11:33 <SDO> I am likely to just give it away now.
20:11:43 <SDO> Maybe auction it off the lowest bidder.
20:11:45 <SDO> :)
20:11:51 <SDO> negative numbers accepted.
20:11:54 <SDO> hehehe (j/k)
20:11:55 <uuter> heh
20:12:44 <uuter> i have lots of the Apple technical books on the IIgs, and am planning to get some 65816 action
20:13:00 <SDO> I mean really, I just had MIT put me on their book review list, and they sent me 100s of dollars of books to read and review, and keep.  I can do wahtever I want with them when I'm done, so I have plenty to do and mucking around with small potatoes is not my forte anyway.
20:13:09 <SDO> uuter, I have over 1000 apple ][ books.
20:13:25 <uuter> heh, rad~
20:13:27 <SDO> My goal in 1999 was to have the complete published listing of all books Apple ][ that I could find.
20:13:41 <SDO> Then my goal (and still is) to get those books online and in my private digital library.
20:13:47 <uuter> man, you are the Uber Apple II collector
20:13:52 <SDO> However that changed when I realized the magnitude of my goals.
20:13:57 <uuter> i have the same goal
20:14:03 <SDO> uuter, I have a warehouse full of apple ][ stuff.
20:14:15 <uuter> heh, thats so rad
20:14:19 <SDO> I have 100s of IIGS and //e, I have a bunch of ][ and ][+ machines.
20:14:26 <uuter> man
20:14:33 <uuter> any rare stuff?
20:14:36 <SDO> I have collected cards for a long long time.
20:14:37 <SDO> Yes.
20:14:47 <SDO> I have a number of 400-1000 USD cards.
20:15:06 <SDO> One that I don't have was the 68000 development system that everyone in the community jumped on 1-1.5 years ago.
20:15:13 <SDO> I had never seen it before, it was kinda amazing.
20:15:13 <uuter> i have a weird RAM card for the IIgs, that takes SIMMs
20:15:21 <SDO> Yes, that is likely the Qram
20:15:30 <SDO> as I recal, is it red.
20:15:40 <SDO> 4 meg card.
20:15:41 <uuter> I think i have the original Lisa cross development UCSD Pascal disks
20:16:01 <SDO> LOL, neat.  Twiggy floppies.
20:16:02 <uuter> its UCSD for Apple II, but it looks like it targets the 68000
20:16:06 <SDO> oh.
20:16:15 <SDO> sorry, I was thinking actual twiggy for Lisa floppies.
20:16:25 <uuter> oh, my Lisa is a 2/10
20:16:33 <uuter> no twiggys
20:16:36 <SDO> anyway, take a look at those crude pictures of a few rare books I sold recently.  I think I got 50-60 for the Assembler book.
20:16:46 <SDO> Yah, you have the Lisa/Mac model.
20:16:58 <uuter> Not XL
20:17:02 <uuter> Lisa 2
20:17:03 <SDO> I was a Level I and II service tech/nerd in HS, and I remember doing all the conversions.
20:17:05 <SDO> Oh, the Lisa 2.
20:17:08 <SDO> I forgot about that box.
20:17:13 <SDO> We dumped Lisa at that point.
20:17:24 <SDO> The XL was a suck ass solution and a huge disappointment.
20:17:30 <uuter> yeah
20:17:39 <SDO> I owned a Lisa and dumped it and got out about even.
20:18:03 <SDO> The Apple HQ gave us 'employees' a big discount, 40%, and I bit, and sold 3 months later, just before apple cut the price down to 4999.00
20:18:06 <SDO> I was luckly.
20:18:16 <uuter> i got mine at 0 cost, except the 1000 + Km trip to Reno
20:18:21 <SDO> My dad who at the time helped fund part of the purchase was really happy too :)
20:18:33 <SDO> Wow, that is cool, someone wanting ot find a nice home for it?
20:18:45 <SDO> where do you live, the bay area?
20:18:49 <uuter> yeah, my dad is into British biekes
20:18:54 <uuter> bikes
20:18:57 <uuter> no, Canada
20:19:02 <SDO> BC?
20:19:06 <uuter> yes
20:19:10 <SDO> Vancouver?
20:19:15 <SDO> I love the valley over near Hope.
20:19:24 <uuter> No, inland, where the huge fire is
20:19:25 <SDO> Armstrong is where I would like to own a house.
20:19:34 <uuter> heh, really?
20:19:40 <uuter> bring your collection :)
20:19:54 <SDO> Silver Star is where i used to train with the Can Biathalon team when I was xcountry racing for my university.
20:19:57 <SDO> LOL, no way.
20:20:07 <SDO> It is 2200+ sq feet, and no very mobile at all.
20:20:12 <SDO> My collection is freaking HUGE.
20:20:18 <uuter> i gather
20:20:20 <SDO> Too big, I have been selling it off for the past year+
20:20:41 <SDO> I have 28 shelving units too, 3 high, to 8 feet, and they are all full, and the floor is full too.
20:20:47 <uuter> well, yeah 100s of IIgs's is a little much :)
20:21:12 <SDO> I scrap what I can, take what is resellable.  I just had an offer in AZ to go and pick up a 24x10 foot container of apple// stuff, for 500 and get it out of there, the guy is getting out of it.  I said, nope, wouldn't add up the math.
20:21:31 <uuter> yeah
20:21:47 <SDO> uuter, but I got one IIGS from the national nuke labs in NM it was DECKED OUT, every slot, evrey thing you could want, parts have already sold for over 1000 USD, and I have 1/2 of the cards  left.
20:21:51 <uuter> the guy i got this from was a programmer on the Apple II/III
20:22:17 <uuter> thats pretty cool
20:22:24 <SDO> I have also a HP 1610 (forgot the actual model number) 6502 CPU testing machine :) with cables and all the jazz, works.
20:22:38 <uuter> wow
20:22:38 <SDO> Got it from an Atari 6502 hacker/programmer, in house.
20:22:51 <SDO> Yah, that was a find, I had him at 50 bucks, and then he upped me to 100 on it.
20:23:06 <uuter> a 68k stack would be nice
20:23:24 <SDO> lol, sure, so would a pile of money.
20:23:38 <SDO> I'm going to liquidate most of my collection.
20:23:49 <SDO> I have had it with it, I don't even have a feeling of love for it any more, I'm burned out on it.
20:24:00 <uuter> bummer
20:24:12 <SDO> That is what happens over time.  Keeping going is just too much work.
20:24:19 <uuter> yeah
20:24:29 <SDO> The volume of Apple // stuff is just over freaking much.
20:24:42 <SDO> and it is NOT a business for me personally.
20:25:04 <SDO> I do it for fun, if I took it serious, and did it 5 days a week, I'd make 2000-3000 a month, and be really burned out.
20:25:09 <uuter> yeah, i find it hard to think that one could make a living off them
20:25:18 <SDO> I would much rather get back into programming and make 50-60 an hour.
20:25:26 <uuter> perhaps keeping legacy systems up
20:25:29 <SDO> uuter, you can make a living, but I want to make a retirement again.
20:25:37 <uuter> heh, yeah
20:25:39 <SDO> uuter, most systems have been removed from service.
20:25:49 <uuter> even schools
20:26:14 <uuter> are you going to keep the rare'ish stuff?
20:26:22 <uuter> just dump the volume?
20:26:28 <SDO> another goal of mine in 1999 was to teach ST-80 on IIGS and use it to interface weather hardware, and then put a IIGS and some sensors into custom boxes that students would build and configure, and have them with remote weather stations at home.
20:26:51 <SDO> I'm getting rid of the low end commodity stuff, the power supplies the mobos, the non-collectable, and some of hte mid range
20:26:53 <SDO> collectables.
20:27:05 <SDO> I'm keeping some mint condition books, and getting rid of the rest.
20:27:14 <SDO> I have many copies of the Volume sets for IIGS.
20:27:17 <uuter> i don't suppose you have a list?
20:27:19 <SDO> All 3, and the hardback sets.
20:27:26 <SDO> No way, couldn't even begin.
20:27:30 <uuter> yeah
20:27:34 <SDO> I have over 50 boxes of II books.
20:27:35 <uuter> i figured
20:27:40 <SDO> It is out of control.
20:27:44 <SDO> Cataloging it would be insanity.
20:27:57 <uuter> hmm, barcode scanner :)
20:28:11 <SDO> I wanted to get the QueCat or whatever the barcode reading working with BeOS so I could write a hack to scan in the ISBNs and then automatically catalo that way.
20:28:19 <SDO> (yes, you and I were thinking the same thing)
20:28:43 <uuter> how do you plan to liquidate it?
20:28:46 <SDO> I run beos now, and BTW, love it :)  Totally abandoned ware, nobody bothers me, and software just keeps on coming out for it, albeit slow.
20:28:46 <uuter> ebay?
20:28:53 <SDO> uuter, yep, slowly.
20:28:53 <uuter> or whole sale like?
20:29:07 <SDO> I thought about a complete sale, but that is unlikely to bring 1/10th of the value.
20:29:07 <uuter> yeah, BeOS was fun
20:29:17 <SDO> BeOS is fun, I use it 100% on my 8 machines here.
20:29:20 <uuter> but its marginalized on PPC
20:29:36 <uuter> and Zeta has no plans that i can see
20:29:50 <SDO> I dont' use it really on PPC except for the 'sake' of having some compiles done on PPC, nobody uses PPC except collectors.
20:29:57 <SDO> Zeta is a joke.
20:30:01 <SDO> Delayware for 2+ years.
20:30:05 <uuter> yeah
20:30:06 <SDO> It is likely also illegal.
20:30:11 <uuter> really?
20:30:20 <uuter> Palm going after them?
20:30:23 <SDO> They have not done clean room on it, Bernd says otherwise, but I think he is full of it.
20:30:39 <SDO> Palm hasn't yet, but the source tree was leaked 1 week after the Palm sale.
20:30:53 <SDO> I know it was leaked, cause at one time I knew someone that had it, I hvae seen it.
20:30:53 <uuter> do you collect source code as well?
20:30:58 <SDO> No comment.
20:31:01 <uuter> heh
20:31:17 <uuter> yeah i heard about that
20:31:25 <uuter> i have not seen it however
20:31:39 <SDO> OFFICIALLY, I do NOT have the source code, so anyone thinking of strip searching me with KY jelly needs not come here for that entertainment.
20:31:58 <uuter> of course not
20:31:58 <SDO> uuter, you weren't missing much other than history.
20:32:10 <uuter> i hear its pretty narrow source base
20:32:37 <SDO> What I saw and read and quickly forgot about was the core OS, stuff like alloc and kernel stuff.
20:32:46 <SDO> I'm more into learning to do ASM in BeOS, and that was interesting to me.
20:32:52 <SDO> The kits and stuff is just a mess.
20:32:55 <uuter> yeah
20:33:02 <uuter> C++ is not my favorite
20:33:10 <SDO> The API is nice at the surface, but God to be a system programmer at Be would have been a nightmare.
20:33:19 <SDO> C++ sucks crap, and yes that is a  large part of it.
20:33:34 <SDO> I did ObjC for 10+ years and love it, and ST since 89 off and on, mostly off.
20:33:41 <SDO> C I get along with also.
20:33:49 <uuter> NeXT?
20:33:50 <SDO> But C++ is just very hard to learn.
20:33:52 <SDO> NeXT, yes.
20:33:58 <SDO> I have been a NeRD since 90
20:34:06 <SDO> Liveware Corporation was mine.
20:34:21 <SDO> One of the largest at the time NeXT 3rd party houses, but that didn't say much.
20:34:23 <uuter> i never really got into NeXT at the time
20:34:25 <Herkamire> LOL, I forgot I started writing a colorforth editor in python a year or two back. Here's an excerpt:   modestr = ["--- Mode for beeping ", "--- Mode for corrupting files "]
20:34:36 <SDO> LOL
20:34:53 <SDO> uuter, I still have about 20-30 NeXT machines.
20:34:59 <SDO> a few color dimensions too.
20:34:59 <uuter> wholy shit
20:35:07 <SDO> I sold many that I used to have.
20:35:08 <Herkamire> I've decided to rewrite my ascii --> herkforth source converter in python (was in perl, but that's pissing me off)
20:35:15 <SDO> I got a TON of them from the government sales in the late 90s.
20:35:26 <SDO> I have 6-7 cubes I believe still.
20:35:29 <uuter> what else do you collect?
20:35:57 <SDO> I spent a TON of money in the 90s on NeXT doing development.  I lost about 300K+ in the early 90s with SJ and his bullSH** 'marketing'
20:35:57 <Herkamire> SDL g4 cubes?
20:36:15 <uuter> NeXT
20:36:17 <SDO> No G4 cubes.
20:36:32 <SDO> They still bring a pretty penny at auction, collectable freaking items.
20:36:47 <SDO> I think the last plasticube I saw auctioned went for like 300-400 and it was trashed.
20:37:17 <Herkamire> shit. I know I'm going to end up rewriting this again too...
20:37:29 <uuter> i would dig some BlackWare as well
20:37:31 <SDO> Herkamire, that si what you get for opening the can of worms :)
20:37:38 <SDO> uuter, you want a cube?
20:37:46 <uuter> its on my list :)
20:37:48 <SDO> I sold one to a guy in Europe for 300, I would do same for you.
20:37:54 <SDO> hehehe, basic configuration.
20:38:01 <SDO> let me know if you get 'around to it'
20:38:04 <SDO> I am in no hurry.
20:38:05 <uuter> im an impoverished student :)
20:38:19 <SDO> LOL, I'm a very impoverished NeXT cube(s) owner.
20:38:27 <SDO> hehehe, somewhere someday somehow you will own one.
20:38:38 <SDO> They are not as 'desired' today as they were in the dot bomb days.
20:38:44 <uuter> yeah
20:38:55 <uuter> things are more practical
20:38:59 <SDO> The cache of it being the mag case and also the machine which the Net was developed are over.
20:39:16 <uuter> HTTP was done on a Cube yes?
20:39:17 <SDO> People are not so able to be as stupid with money today, give it back to them, and they will just or more stupid again.
20:39:23 <SDO> WWW was done on cube.
20:39:38 <SDO> the first app was called WorldWideWeb, and it was a browser written on a cube.
20:39:48 <SDO> I have it on a few of the HDs that I have in the cubes.
20:39:56 <uuter> hah
20:39:56 <SDO> I remember when Tim released it, I was like, HTML sucks shit.
20:40:07 <SDO> I am into LaTeX as the page layout model that should have been used.
20:40:24 <uuter> do you know the tim guy?
20:40:41 <SDO> Not personally, but I can never remember his freaking last names.
20:40:54 <Herkamire> SDO: I'm just avoiding opening a bigger can of worms :)
20:41:07 <kc5tja> ok, back.
20:41:10 <kc5tja> For now at least.
20:41:12 <uuter> any Xerox hardware?
20:41:12 <SDO> The dorkus that runs BlackHoleInc.com (Rob Blessin) knows Tim, he 'works on Tims' machine in the past.
20:41:13 <Herkamire> I've just decidid to change my interpreter in a major way
20:41:25 <SDO> uuter, no I wish I had some ST old hardware.
20:41:57 <SDO> I have seen and been around the Tek 4044 machine that Wirths-Brock did his ST impelmenetaiton on.
20:42:07 <uuter> one of the proffs at school worked on the Alto
20:42:17 <SDO> Cool1
20:42:25 <uuter> doing system programming in BCPL ;)
20:42:29 <SDO> Hang with him, you may get luck one dark and evil evening in the alley.
20:42:29 <Herkamire> my interpreter was running on 16 colors, and I'm cutting it down to 6. to do so I'm sticking numbers in the dictionary. should make everything a bunch simple. I feel a litle bad about taking up 32 bytes for the dictionary for a small number, but oh well.
20:42:43 <uuter> yeah, he knows Bill Gates too
20:42:47 <SDO> LOL
20:42:51 <uuter> they went to school together
20:42:58 <SDO> My sister did also.
20:42:58 <uuter> but he is totally different
20:43:08 <SDO> I went to Little school and my family went to Lakeside.
20:43:11 <uuter> its strange, i hear stories about him
20:43:16 <SDO> He is a jerkoff
20:43:22 <uuter> yeah
20:43:26 <SDO> arrogant.
20:43:38 <SDO> I grew up about 2 miles from his family in Seattle.
20:43:47 <uuter> this dude is MAD smrt, but he works at a little univerity in .ca, its strange
20:44:06 <SDO> some people that are bright don't need to do bright things.
20:44:11 <uuter> i heard that he turn'd bill down to be like employee #8 or somthin
20:44:16 <SDO> I'm not smart, and I do stupid things all the time.
20:44:26 <SDO> Well, that is just smart and stupid.
20:44:33 <SDO> I turned down M$ in 82 and 84.
20:44:43 <uuter> its by choice, but i don't understand his motives
20:44:54 <SDO> My motive is simply that I don't like what they do.
20:45:07 <SDO> I'm not a rocket scientist, yet I can see evil when I see it.
20:45:12 <SDO> It is about being right, or rich.
20:45:17 <SDO> I choose to be right on this one.
20:45:19 <uuter> i think thats his reason too
20:45:48 <SDO> My family is set ofr freaking life.
20:46:02 <uuter> part of the Seattle elite?
20:46:06 <SDO> My Grandparents bought on day 3, my mom on first week, my uncles in first week.
20:46:15 <uuter> oh m$?
20:46:19 <SDO> yes.
20:46:25 <uuter> heh
20:46:26 <SDO> I bought 1000 shares in 95 out of pressure from them.
20:46:40 <SDO> I sold 6 months later, today it would be worth about 1 mill.
20:46:50 <uuter> probably
20:46:50 <SDO> I have broke even, it has split 4 times since, or maybe 5 now.
20:47:24 <uuter> are you programming now?
20:47:28 <SDO> I just oculdn't hold onto it, and people kept asking me why, my grandma asked, I simply said until the last day I saw her alive, I could not make that choice in good conciounse.
20:47:36 <SDO> Now, I'm typing my freaking life story to you now.
20:47:40 <SDO> :)
20:47:45 <uuter> heh
20:47:46 <kc5tja> Some people that are bright become intellectual hermits because they know the world will condemn them for their thoughts too.
20:47:51 <uuter> its a good read :)
20:48:22 <SDO> kc5tja, interesting point, and in some way that is what I have become.  I'm also totally disappointed in the tech business, and in general medocrity of some great minds.
20:48:32 <SDO> Business has way way too much a hold on direction of science.
20:48:43 <kc5tja> Yup.
20:48:50 <SDO> some would argue that is good, keeps wackos from going too wacko in labs.
20:48:52 <kc5tja> Now you know half of the reason I'm so frustrated with myself.
20:49:01 <kc5tja> And why I feel so utterly trapped.
20:49:12 <SDO> kc5tja, I got lucky and own some land, and I checked out, I feel for ya.
20:49:27 <SDO> I have actually thought about turning my ranch into a retreat for people like myself, frustrated and need a place to hang out.
20:49:35 <SDO> I may just do it.
20:49:36 <kc5tja> Hehe
20:49:43 <SDO> Maybe a braintrust of alternative clean thinking minds.
20:49:56 <SDO> I don't know, but I have to do something with the money I have in it, or let it go and move to AK or Antartica.
20:50:07 <SDO> I just don't see the world getting any better, that is society and science.
20:50:32 <SDO> We as a society, world that is, need to move beyond a war machine economy.
20:50:51 <uuter> i think when computing skills become accepted as maitstream, as reading/writing did, things will change
20:50:57 <SDO> but that is too idealistic, never will work.  Oil is too powerful, and I equate M$ as bad or worse than Oil.
20:51:20 <uuter> yeah, i know what you mean, looking at the US from the outside
20:51:25 <kc5tja> uuter: I think they already are, aren't they?
20:51:28 <SDO> uuter, I hope you are right, but programming for the average person is getting lessons on how to get your Microwave to stop blinking midnite.
20:51:49 <uuter> my mom is not a real computer user
20:51:49 <kc5tja> Hehe
20:52:08 <SDO> Computers are too complex for anyone even with skills in it to understand.
20:52:23 <SDO> The OS has to go away, and the interface to the hardware and solution needs to be clean and purposeful.
20:52:32 <SDO> Layers of shit on top of each other has to be abbolished.
20:52:38 <uuter> TRUE DAT
20:52:43 <uuter> i totally agress
20:52:48 <uuter> oi, agree
20:53:15 <uuter> we need computers like consumer electronics
20:53:24 <uuter> mass produced terminal style
20:53:34 <fridge> I am reading a book about assembly on trs-80... seems so much easier than trying to grok the instruction set for x86 =)
20:53:39 <Herkamire> how do you name a constant in python?
20:53:57 <uuter> TRS-80 had more than one MPU
20:54:08 <SDO> uuter, toasters, computers need to be as easy to use as a toaster.
20:54:09 <uuter> 8085, z80, 68k
20:54:25 <uuter> yes, i h8 the shitty interfaces as well
20:54:33 <uuter> floating windows suck
20:54:50 <uuter> try explaining focus to your mom
20:54:50 <SDO> For the common man can't grasp more than pulling bread out of a plastic bag and burning it until crispy.
20:54:56 <fridge> thats why I like ion window manager
20:55:11 <fridge> no overlap
20:55:12 <uuter> there are way too many options
20:55:18 <SDO> I say we just give people a bic lighter and see how well they can toast a computer.
20:55:43 <SDO> I suspect there will be a recall of machines to adjust the parameters of use.
20:55:54 <SDO> Manuals will be much simpler.
20:56:10 <SDO> In fact, there really shouldn't be a manual ot a computer, that is the silliest thing I have ever seen in my life.
20:56:16 <SDO> Especially poorly written ones.
20:56:44 <SDO> In all, I believe it would be possible house and put together a living life think tank and get paid silly money for it.
20:56:46 <uuter> the world needs a simple VolksComputer
20:57:11 <uuter> OS in ROM, no goddamn patches
20:57:17 <kc5tja> Herkamire: You don't.  You just say X = 123.  :)
20:57:19 <uuter> no spinning magnetic disks
20:57:21 <SDO> Figuratively yes.  But we don't have a VolksCar, or a BenzTruck.
20:57:30 <kc5tja> uuter: TRS-80 had precisely one Z-80.
20:57:45 <kc5tja> uuter: Unless you're talking about the CoCo, in which case, it had precisely one 6809.
20:57:47 <SDO> uuter, burnable rom, the other way is Mac land history, and very flawed.
20:57:47 <uuter> My, TRS-80 Model 100 has a 8085
20:57:56 <SDO> bbl
20:57:57 <uuter> the model 16 has a 68k
20:58:00 <kc5tja> uuter: OK, but it still has only one CPU in it.  :)
20:58:57 <Herkamire> kc5tja: thanks :)
20:59:06 <kc5tja> Well, I think that computers should come with a manual, personally.
20:59:16 <kc5tja> I mean, cars come with manuals.
20:59:23 <kc5tja> But I see your point.
21:00:20 <fridge> my bicycle comes with a manual
21:00:40 <fridge> well it would have
21:00:45 <fridge> if I didn't buy it 2nd hand
21:01:36 <fridge> but anyway! =)
21:02:03 <kc5tja> Hehe :)
21:09:04 <Herkamire> in python: how do you concat these two strings:  "0" "2"? just "0" + "2"?
21:09:07 <kc5tja> Dude, I got some serious heart-burn happening right now... :/
21:09:18 <kc5tja> Yes
21:09:24 <Herkamire> cool
21:10:27 --- quit: I440r ("night night!")
21:16:52 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:17:08 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4222.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
21:24:30 <Herkamire> python is a lot of fun (so far my code has worked the first time except for missing colons)
21:24:40 <Herkamire> but I need to go to bed.
21:25:17 <fridge> we use python for almost all our software
21:26:52 <Herkamire> nice :)
21:26:56 --- quit: Herkamire ("zzzZZZZ")
21:28:19 * kc5tja swears by Python.
21:47:42 <Suzanne> kc, actually, i believe the 68k trash 80's had 2 CPUs
21:47:53 <Suzanne> kc, the 68k and a Z80 for compatibility
21:48:47 <Suzanne> that said, the only trash i've played with, was a model 14 iirc, running xenix/68k
21:49:52 <kc5tja> I never played with anything more sophisticated than the Model 4.
21:50:05 <Suzanne> the '14 was ok...
21:50:10 <Suzanne> xenix wasn't a great OS tho
21:50:34 <Suzanne> tbh, the best machine in that 'class' i played with, was a WICAT 150
21:50:43 <kc5tja> I wouldn't expect it to be.  At that time it was still owned by Microsoft, wasn't it?
21:50:49 <Suzanne> 2 of them, in fact, one running v7 unix, the other running sme weird 68k clone of VMS
21:51:02 <kc5tja> Interesting.
21:51:08 <kc5tja> I didn't think anyone had cloned VMS.
21:51:09 <Suzanne> well, at the time i used it, no, but it probably was MS software when it was released :)
21:51:20 <Suzanne> well, this looked damned like VMS
21:51:38 <Suzanne> even down to 'SET DIRECTORY [000000.blah.blah] to change directory
21:51:51 <kc5tja> Yeah, I'd say that is a VMS clone.
21:51:57 <kc5tja> Fascinating.
21:52:02 <Suzanne> nice little machines, tbh
21:52:03 <kc5tja> That's the first I've heard of a VMS clone.
21:52:07 <Suzanne> rare as all hell tho
21:52:40 <Suzanne> basically, a 68k based S100 card cage, in a form factor very similar to a VT102, but a little larger
21:53:15 <fridge> I'd like to use a VMS
21:53:26 <fridge> I got a bit excited when I heard about OpenVMS
21:53:28 <fridge> hah
21:53:46 <Suzanne> fridge, have you tried FreeVMS ?
21:53:59 <fridge> no, I didn't think it was at a stage where you could boot it
21:54:01 <Suzanne> i've never worked out how to get it to work personally, and it doesn't look very close to being finished :/
21:54:49 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@fl-nken-u2-c3b-178.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth
21:55:05 <Suzanne> i have a copy of OpenVMS 7.2 somewhere, just in case i ever get my hands on a decstation or alpha capable of running it ;)
21:55:38 <fridge> are there any emulators?
21:55:43 <gilbertbsd> aloha
21:55:56 <Suzanne> frige, 2, neither work much beyond the boot prompt
21:56:07 <Suzanne> and both are so old they require MacOS pre-OS X :)
21:56:22 <Suzanne> in fact, iirc, one of them requires System 7.something :)
21:56:27 <gilbertbsd> what about for X86 ?
21:56:34 <Suzanne> gilbert, never seen one
21:56:59 <Suzanne> in *theory* you could modify one of the PDP11 emus that supports the /78 to emulate the VAX 11/78
21:57:09 <Suzanne> the two machines were near identical apart from the virtual addressing
21:57:28 <gilbertbsd> thats a thought!
21:57:51 <Suzanne> but, then you'd need an old copy of VMS
21:57:58 <Suzanne> i think 4.7 was the last that ran on a 11/78
21:58:07 <gilbertbsd> which hp would be happy to charge how much for?
21:58:16 <Suzanne> dunno
21:58:26 <Suzanne> if they're still going by old DEC pricing, about $11,000/year :P
21:58:44 <gilbertbsd> damn!
21:58:58 <Suzanne> you never *paid* for DEC software, you licensed it for a year ;/
21:58:59 <gilbertbsd> and that still did not keep them from dying a death most ... 
21:59:18 <Suzanne> gilbert, it might be WHY they died a death most ... :)
21:59:26 <Suzanne> the licensing fees were outrageous
21:59:39 <gilbertbsd> who bought their machines?
21:59:40 <Suzanne> they wanted something close to half a mil/year for our cluster
21:59:59 <Suzanne> oracle wanted $90M for a license for the same cluster, mind you
22:00:24 --- join: gilbertplan9 (~gilbert@fl-nken-u2-c3b-178.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth
22:00:43 <gilbertplan9> this is really quite annoying :|
22:00:47 --- nick: gilbertplan9 -> gilbertdeb
22:00:49 <Suzanne> gilbert, lots of people bought their machines, but mostly security-concerned companies
22:00:57 <Suzanne> and you probably missed:
22:01:05 <Suzanne> <Suzanne>	they wanted something close to half a mil/year for our cluster
22:01:05 <Suzanne> 	<Suzanne>	oracle wanted $90M for a license for the same cluster, mind you
22:01:18 <gilbertdeb> ah I only missed the second line.
22:01:32 <gilbertdeb> 90Million?
22:01:35 <gilbertdeb> did anyone pay up?
22:01:35 <Suzanne> indeed
22:01:52 <Suzanne> i believe so, i was 'transferred' out of that dept before they finalised it tho
22:02:59 <gilbertdeb> and what exactly were they offering for a 100th of what bush wants? ;)
22:03:19 <Suzanne> oracle? just their DB, on our 40-50 CPU cluster :)
22:03:21 <gilbertdeb> make that * 10th
22:03:30 <gilbertdeb> hmmm.
22:03:38 <gilbertdeb> the cluster was a Vax?
22:03:39 <kc5tja> The PDP-11 and VAX-11 processors were quite different though.
22:03:56 <kc5tja> PDP-11's opcodes were always 16-bits, while the VAX-11's opcodes were 8-bit packed (like x86's).
22:04:01 <kc5tja> IIRC
22:04:12 <Suzanne> kc, true, but a PDP 11/78 simulator would mean you just need to write the CPU core, pretty much
22:04:18 * kc5tja nods
22:04:18 <Suzanne> and the VAX core is pretty high level
22:04:25 <kc5tja> Yeah.
22:04:31 <Suzanne> gilbert, the cluster was 40-50 VAXs
22:04:43 <kc5tja> It's still the only CPU I'm aware of that had a CRC32 instruction for computing the 32-bit CCITT-standard CRC of a chunk of RAM.
22:04:55 <Suzanne> kc, it always amazed me with the string instructions
22:05:01 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne were there no alternatives?
22:05:04 <Suzanne> ok, i can see having string instructions in a big CISC...
22:05:09 <Suzanne> but *2 sets* ????!
22:05:31 <Suzanne> gilbert, yeah, we could have pulled one machine from the cluster and bought a single CPU license
22:05:43 <Suzanne> gilbert, but part of the reason we had a huge cluster, was because we needed a huge cluster :P
22:05:43 <gilbertdeb> whaat?
22:05:50 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
22:06:19 <Suzanne> gilbert, a VAX cluster is somewhat similar to a Beowulf/MOSIX cluster
22:06:29 <Suzanne> you join the machines into one, sort of, big machine
22:06:43 <gilbertdeb> ah I see.
22:06:54 <gilbertdeb> so are beowulf clusters up to Vax clusters yet?
22:07:04 <Suzanne> as for the string ops.... the VAX instruction set has both ASCIZ and ASCIN/N2 instructions :)
22:07:16 <Suzanne> gilbert, far beyond, in terms of performance :)
22:07:24 <Suzanne> but then, VAXs look pathetic by today's standards
22:07:26 <gilbertdeb> really? thats cool!
22:07:46 <gilbertdeb> wait beowulfs are better performers or vaxes?
22:08:08 <Suzanne> gilbert, pretty much any cluster is a better performer, these days :P
22:08:42 <gilbertdeb> so a Vax cluster is a better performer than a beowulf cluster :D
22:08:50 <Suzanne> gilbert, your computer on your desk is prboably abotu 500x more powerful than a 11/78 :P
22:08:50 <gilbertdeb> and a Beowulf cluster is a better per...
22:08:59 <gilbertdeb> ah I get it now.
22:09:28 <Suzanne> actually, unless you have a slow machine, 500x would be an understatement :P
22:09:42 <Suzanne> iirc, a 11/78 only managed 800k instructions/second :)
22:09:44 <gilbertdeb> what did you use your cluster for?
22:09:54 <Suzanne> gilbert, me? or the company ? :)
22:10:00 <gilbertdeb> both of you :D
22:10:09 <gilbertdeb> 'the company'.
22:10:13 <Suzanne> i used it for pissing users off, and playing a VT340 graphical version of defender :)
22:10:24 <gilbertdeb> heheh thats what I thought.
22:10:31 <gilbertdeb> and the company?
22:10:43 <gilbertdeb> what did they suppose they needed your game machine for? 
22:10:53 <Suzanne> the company used it for various things, holding lots of data, processing payroll, doing chemical modelling, doing flow modelling on pipelines, etc
22:11:57 <gilbertdeb> so does the company now use a cheaper beowulf cluster or did they scale up to an Asci?
22:12:07 <Suzanne> i have no idea
22:12:36 <Suzanne> i was there on 'work placement' (kind of the UK equivalent of an internship) 11 years ago
22:13:18 <gilbertdeb> ah.
22:14:18 <Suzanne> when i was transferred from admining the cluster, i worked on a data logging/analysis package written in Fortran ;)
22:14:50 <Suzanne> (and 3 months later we had a disk pack fail, and found out noone had bothered to do any fucking backups since i left...)
22:14:54 <gilbertdeb> 11 years ago there were vax clusters?
22:15:17 <Suzanne> gilbert, i dunno when VMS allowed clustering first, but it was in the 80s sometime
22:15:29 <gilbertdeb> I mean 'as recently as'...
22:15:35 <Suzanne> oh, yeah
22:15:39 <Suzanne> probably still are in places
22:15:48 <Suzanne> i think the navy still have a few clusters kicking around somewhere
22:16:29 <Suzanne> i wouldn't be surprised if a few of our customers at the time are still using VMS machines, although those were mostly microVAX IIs running standalone
22:17:34 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:18:06 <gilbertdeb> formerly expensive toys.
22:18:59 <gilbertdeb> eh but how could Oracle charge so much for their database?
22:19:15 <Suzanne> probably 'because we can'
22:19:45 <gilbertdeb> why didn't you threaten to go to db2 or ingres or sybase or *?
22:19:50 <kc5tja> That's odd -- according to the folks at MVCC, their 11/780 ran at 25MHz.
22:20:10 <Suzanne> if you have a catalog in front of you from your OS vendor that says $11,000/cpu/year for VMS, $23,000/cpu/year for ultrix, $50,000/cpu/year for the dev tools, asking $90M for a 40-50 CPU cluster, probably doesn't seem that outrageous
22:20:20 <kc5tja> At 800k instructions per second, that means each instruction took well over 25 clock cycles to execute per, consistently.
22:20:24 <Suzanne> kc, hmmm, the 780 was faster, but i didn't think it was that much faster
22:20:41 <Suzanne> kc, the 11/78 was what i was talking about, it was defined at '1 VAX MIPS' but it was lower, 800k iirc
22:20:58 <kc5tja> What clock speed was the 11/78?
22:21:03 <Suzanne> there again, 25 cycles/op really wouldn't surprise  me for the VAX :P
22:21:15 <kc5tja> Well, for the complex operations like CRC and the like, sure.
22:21:24 <Suzanne> this is a company that built their CPUs out of ECL 'because MOS, HMOS and CMOS aren't fast enough' :P
22:21:25 <kc5tja> But egads, for something as simple as an addition, I just can't see that.
22:22:21 <Suzanne> hmmm,
22:22:31 <Suzanne> 11/780  (1977) 1 VAX MIPS
22:24:59 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne it appears the company did the sort of stuff eds does right?
22:25:40 <gilbertdeb> perot's former company wot made him them billions before he gave it to Roger smith wot was featured in michael moore's roger and me ?
22:25:48 <Suzanne> i'm not very familiar with EDS tbh
22:26:00 <gilbertdeb> see simple explanation above :D
22:26:14 <gilbertdeb> wot run for prez a few times and lost soundly.
22:26:16 <Suzanne> i'm afraid that didn't really clear anything up :P
22:26:22 <gilbertdeb> Hmmm.
22:27:00 <gilbertdeb> really hard to state what they do. lots of their 'stuff' is tightly regulated by an unseen marketing department.
22:27:26 <Suzanne> if you mean the company i worked for, they were ICI, sort of a UK equivalent to DuPont
22:27:30 <kc5tja> OK, anyone familiar with Apple-II's high-resolution video modes?  How the hell did they end up being able to display 6 colors instead of 4 or 8?  I can't seem to find too many details on this on the net.
22:27:48 <gilbertdeb> With a singular-minded outsourcing focus, EDS is uniquely positioned to support today?s business-minded CIO seeking agile solutions. Through our unified global IT outs\
22:27:55 <gilbertdeb> ... and it goes on and on and on ...
22:28:06 <Suzanne> the dept i worked for, wrote software for ICI itself, and our customers (mostly other smaller chem companies and power companies - our data logging/analysis software ran a lot of power stations)
22:28:11 <gilbertdeb> iCi they had a blue logo with water didn't they?
22:28:19 <Suzanne> gilbert, yeah
22:28:29 <gilbertdeb> flashbacks.
22:28:30 <gilbertdeb> aaargh.
22:28:55 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja I dunno but there is an apple i machine being made, perhaps you could contact the creator for more info?
22:29:05 <gilbertdeb> replica something or other.
22:29:43 <gilbertdeb> but tell me, why must corporate 'what we do's be so long winded and buzz word filled?
22:29:58 <Suzanne> gilbert, because someone gets paid to write that crap :P
22:30:18 <gilbertdeb> hahahaha
22:30:20 <gilbertdeb> good one.
22:30:31 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: The Apple I didn't have graphics.
22:30:57 <gilbertdeb> ah ok.
22:30:57 <Suzanne> kc, is it 8 colors, of which 1 is the background, and 1 is the border?
22:31:09 <Suzanne> kc, or perhaps 2 colors are reserved for the split screen graphics/text stuff ?
22:31:13 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Because if they told the truth about their company, then nobody would buy their products except those who specifically needed their specific product offerings.
22:31:48 <kc5tja> Suzanne: No; that would still qualify as 8 colors.  This video mode has 6 colors: 1 background, and 5 different foreground colors of some kind.
22:32:13 <kc5tja> Suzanne: Originally, in the Apple II (not the II+), it was only 4 colors.  But the II+ enhanced it to support 6 colors somehow.
22:32:31 <Suzanne> ahhhh
22:32:32 <kc5tja> That leads me to believe it is somehow hardware dithering.  But I am not sure about it.
22:32:37 <Suzanne> intensity bit, perhaps ?
22:32:49 <Suzanne> excluding black, you get 3*2
22:33:09 <kc5tja> Not sure.
22:33:25 <Suzanne> s/black/background/ perhaps
22:35:07 <Suzanne> the other option...
22:35:19 <Suzanne> is that it does some 'artifacting' stunt like the atari 8bits did
22:35:34 <Suzanne> you could get several 'extra' colors there just by making use of the artifacts
22:35:36 <kc5tja> That's what I'm thinking.
22:35:54 <kc5tja> Pixels on even columns are of one palette, while pixels on odd columns are from another palette.
22:36:00 <kc5tja> Two of the colors are shared between the palettes.
22:36:07 <Suzanne> ah
22:36:21 <kc5tja> Hence, instead of 8 (4+4), you get 6 (2+2+2)
22:36:28 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja do you have an apple 2 sitting there with you?
22:36:53 <kc5tja> "640x200 with 16 dithered colors: in this mode, the pixels in the graphic screen are grouped into even and odd columns. The even columns can have a palette of 4 pure colors out of a of 4096 possible.The odd columns can have a second palette of 4 pure colors. The GS dithers the adjacent colors for 4x4=16 dithered colors. This mode is widely used in productivity programs and also in Apple's Finder for the GS." <-- evidence, from the Apple IIgs desc
22:36:53 <kc5tja> ription on http://www.old-computers.com
22:37:17 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I've never owned an Apple II; I was a Commodore aficionado all the way (for the 8-bits at least).
22:37:28 <kc5tja> And for the 16-bits, though I also appreciated the Atari ST too.
22:37:33 <Suzanne> the atari was the best true 8bit :P
22:37:56 <Suzanne> for 16bits it was a toss up between the amiga and the ST depending on what you needed to do
22:38:14 <Suzanne> actually, i'd add a 'but' to the 'atari' claim for 8bits
22:38:29 <Suzanne> in that 'but, if you count it as a true 8bit, the MSX II was better'
22:42:10 <gilbertdeb> the ancient ads on old-computers.com are funny!
22:45:17 <Suzanne> they have some dodgy stuff tho
22:45:31 <kc5tja> I don't know
22:45:43 <kc5tja> The Atari 800 seems to be the best in so far as it predated the Amiga.
22:45:51 <kc5tja> s/predated/predicted/
22:45:57 <Suzanne> kc, yeah, the atari 800 was the best 'real 8bit'
22:46:05 <Suzanne> i'm not sure i count the MSX2 since it came to the game so late
22:46:16 <kc5tja> I think the Amiga was the "best" 16/32-bit machine, though, because it finally realized Minor's true vision.
22:46:18 <Suzanne> the apple IIgs is disgualifed on two counts...
22:46:30 <Suzanne> 1) its 16bit (65816)  2) it came late to the game too
22:46:32 <gilbertdeb> i'd laugh too: -> http://www.old-computers.com/fun/stupid_scans/stupid_Atari_great_laugh.jpg
22:47:07 <Suzanne> the Apple IIc was quite impressive
22:48:24 <gilbertdeb> -> great predictions! http://www.old-computers.com/fun/stupid_scans/stupid_welcometosomeday.jpg
22:48:28 <gilbertdeb> I'll stop spamming :P
22:48:38 <kc5tja> I'd rank the IIgs as rather significant in the history of 8-bit machines though.  True, it was only 16-bit compared to the (pseudo-)32-bit architectures of the time.
22:48:52 <kc5tja> But it was significant in that it COULD have easily dwarfed the Commodore 64 as the computer of choice.
22:48:55 <Suzanne> gilbert, actually, you could bank at home back then
22:49:06 <kc5tja> But marketing pressures within Apple really wanted the Mac to win, so they self-sabotaged the machine.  :(
22:49:07 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne really? 
22:49:10 <Suzanne> gilbert, france had ebanking VERY early in the 80s
22:49:14 <gilbertdeb> wow!
22:49:20 <uuter> heard about the ROM 4?
22:49:23 <uuter> IIgo
22:49:24 <kc5tja> No.
22:49:25 <uuter> IIgs
22:49:37 <uuter> It had a 1.44 FDD HDD, SIMS etc
22:49:44 <uuter> >>pimp machine<<<
22:49:53 <kc5tja> I know that they were working on the IIgs+ though, but once again, Apple decided to strip the machine of all its dignity, give it a 6502 again, remove the advanced graphics, and just call it the IIc+
23:02:14 --- join: mur (~mur@h31n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
23:02:18 <mur> blong
23:03:26 <gilbertdeb> terve
23:03:53 <uuter> yeah, swedish greetings to you
23:04:42 <uuter> is blong really a word?
23:06:02 <mur> terve gilbertdeb 
23:06:22 <mur> uuter: terve is finnish and blong is not probably "real" word
23:06:31 <uuter> ah, slang?
23:07:00 <mur> hmm
23:07:03 <mur> just sound
23:07:09 <uuter> ah
23:07:10 <mur> onomatopoeia
23:07:15 <uuter> right
23:10:58 <mur> trying multiple servers, hopefully i wont drop
23:12:29 <mur> works. wheee
23:15:46 <mur> okay, so what's up?
23:25:23 <gilbertdeb> so kc5tja, are you running for  governor too? :D
23:27:09 <kc5tja> Yeah
23:27:11 <kc5tja> Vote for me.
23:27:17 <mur> what party and where?
23:27:27 <kc5tja> mur: Heh -- it's a joke.
23:27:36 <kc5tja> But if you must know, I'm a liberal independent.
23:27:41 <mur> heh
23:28:00 <mur> in finnihs we have term "the party for sleeping voters"
23:28:12 <kc5tja> It's interesting to see that I often come up as "libertarian" on the political "Where do you stand?" type tests, but I feel most libertarians haven't a clue about how to run the government either.  So, . . .
23:28:14 <mur> for those who dont vote anyone
23:28:31 <mur> how's govt ran then?
23:28:35 <kc5tja> mur: That'd be the "Republicans" here.
23:28:38 <gilbertdeb> I think the states shortage of funds issue will be fixed just from the fees collected for all the people running for governor.
23:29:04 <kc5tja> mur: Well, for starters, one can actually solicit concerns from communities, instead of making shit up at the top level.
23:29:20 <kc5tja> In a real democratic society, representatives travel from town to town listening, not yapping.
23:29:42 <mur> but usa is not democracy but republic..
23:29:48 <kc5tja> mur: Same difference at this level.
23:29:56 <kc5tja> I said democratic society, not democracy.
23:30:07 <kc5tja> A republic has a strong democratic influence in it.
23:30:25 <mur> in civilization -game it's one level below >:)
23:30:40 <gilbertdeb> heheh. should we stop telling the 3rd world countries that we're not really a democracy with a laissez faire economy?
23:30:57 <gilbertdeb> mur that info is just gonna confuse the people we're trying to convert :P
23:31:10 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Huh?  Your question doesn't make sense -- it's a double-negative.
23:31:29 <gilbertdeb> which question?
23:31:42 <kc5tja> <gilbertdeb>  heheh. should we stop telling the 3rd world countries that we're not really a democracy with a laissez faire economy?
23:31:54 <gilbertdeb> where is the second negative?
23:32:14 <gilbertdeb> s/not//g :D
23:32:25 <kc5tja> Should we stop (e.g., no longer promulgate) telling the 3rd world countries that we're not really a democracy with a . . .
23:32:47 <gilbertdeb> see edit above ^
23:32:51 <kc5tja> The way your question is phrased, it's as if we're advertising that we currently are not a democracy with laissez faire.
23:33:05 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I don't see your second edit.
23:33:13 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> s/not//g :D
23:33:20 <kc5tja> That line did not show up here.
23:33:23 <kc5tja> Are you sure you sent it?
23:33:32 <gilbertdeb> I just did again.
23:33:34 <gilbertdeb> <gilbertdeb> s/not//g :D
23:33:52 <kc5tja> Obviously your re-submission worked.
23:33:53 <mur> heh
23:33:59 <kc5tja> I'm saying your ORIGINAL didn't post.
23:34:10 <gilbertdeb> ah okay.
23:34:20 <mur> hmm
23:34:24 <mur> i saw orginal
23:34:28 <gilbertdeb> well, point though is it'd send a confusing message.
23:34:31 <mur> it was 8.32 my time
23:34:41 <gilbertdeb> the "s/not//g " was the edit.
23:34:52 <kc5tja> Well, here's the deal: in any business venture, if you advertise your product as being "A", then you had better sell "A".
23:34:54 <kc5tja> So,
23:35:09 <kc5tja> if we're telling these 3rd world countries what a wonderful utopian economy we have, we better get one, dontcha think?
23:35:16 <kc5tja> We have two options:
23:35:27 <kc5tja> 1.  Stop lying to our potential partners, or,
23:35:33 <kc5tja> 2.  Turn our lies into truth.
23:35:36 <mur> potential partners
23:35:38 <mur> hehe
23:36:02 <kc5tja> mur: Consider context: the world hates us for what we have done, not what we could have done.
23:36:49 <mur> also the attitude is not good :P
23:36:55 <kc5tja> Precisely.
23:37:05 <kc5tja> America needs to be honest with itself before we can even hope to be honest with anyone else.
23:37:22 <gilbertdeb> mur the attitude comes from knowing we are tax payers in a system we really don't influence all that well but think we are masters of :D
23:37:26 <kc5tja> Otherwise, you'll end up in a vicious cycle, where lies are used to cover up earlier lies, etc.
23:37:32 <kc5tja> Eventually, that'll kill the nation dead.
23:38:06 <gilbertdeb> Ehhh, I think the recent 87 billion dollar request to help keep finding saddam is gonna do us in some.
23:38:16 <mur> well usa is going down sooner or later
23:38:22 <uuter> heh
23:38:24 <gilbertdeb> do people even realize how much just 1 billion of that 87 can do?
23:38:34 <mur> hopefully like sovietunion, unhopefully with civil war with nukes and such
23:38:35 <uuter> i often think that
23:38:44 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Yup.
23:39:04 <kc5tja> mur: I seriously think this nation will go to war before it realizes it cannot sustain false hopes anymore.
23:39:09 <mur> if there are millions of people on streets demanding something in a second, police can't do anything
23:39:18 <gilbertdeb> all in search of one man, and weapons which are known to not exist???
23:39:21 <mur> but if the police can prepare then the situation is not the same
23:39:21 <kc5tja> mur: No, but our military can.
23:39:32 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja I have hope that such a thing would not happen.
23:39:50 <mur> kc5tja: in theory, but in practise it's genocide to kill millions of civilians
23:39:52 <gilbertdeb> I dunno. or I'd move to a tropical paradise and open a bar.
23:39:57 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Obviously, so do I.  I don't want to die.  And I know for a fact, I'm a big ol' pacifistic pussy when it comes to confrontational matters.
23:40:44 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja  pacifists in gov't are much better than rich boys warmongers who have never seen combat in their freaking lives.
23:40:45 <kc5tja> mur: Oh, cry me a river.  Like our military will care if the Commander in Chief gives the order.
23:41:16 <mur> military is commanded by the government
23:41:19 <mur> not the generals
23:41:31 <mur> it's called police state or such if military commands itself
23:41:37 <gilbertdeb> gov't tells the generals who tell the poor boys to go kill, kill, kill.
23:41:42 <kc5tja> mur: Yes, and that's precisely what FEMA exists for.
23:41:55 <mur> fema?
23:41:57 <mur> wht is that?
23:42:05 <kc5tja> mur: Federal Emergency (something) Administration.
23:42:17 <gilbertdeb> the so called shadow gov't?
23:42:25 <mur> :)
23:42:36 <kc5tja> They have the ability to suspend the constitution for 30 to 90 days, without congressional permission, all they need is the PRez to declare martial law.
23:43:03 <kc5tja> But in 30 to 90 days, a total regime change-over can occur pretty quickly.
23:43:40 <kc5tja> Federal Emergency Management Agency
23:52:15 <gilbertdeb> Zzzzz
23:52:18 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Told you I could quit any time!")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.09.08