00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.09.07
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02:13:37 <I440r> well ther wer only EIGHT HUNDERD viruses on my laptop
02:16:05 <fridge> it should learn to practice safe sex
02:41:45 <I440r> yup
03:02:43 <Robert> Hi
03:14:14 <I440r> hi
03:16:41 <onetom> I440r: 800 different types?
03:17:24 <onetom> I440r: coz the actual number is indifferent. in a virtual world its easy 2 multiply
03:18:39 <Klaw> it's fairly easy to multiply in the physical world also
03:18:52 <Klaw> especially if you're a virus
03:30:12 <I440r> NO
03:30:19 <I440r> just 800 infected files
03:30:25 <I440r> 2 different types
03:31:06 <I440r> but still. 99% of those 800 were in a direcotry i didnt create and must have been downloaded behind my back
03:33:14 <onetom> I440r: but it didnt happen on a *nix type os, did it?
03:36:08 <I440r> NO :)
03:36:11 <I440r> argh
03:36:15 <I440r> damned capslock :P
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05:38:51 <snow_richard> hello.  haven't been able to get on in a while.  moved.
05:39:17 <snow_richard> filed divorce.  living in a veteran's home.
05:39:20 * mur moved but havne't had computer in new place so no graphics nor code nor irc
05:39:53 <mur> i've heard that divorces  are always hard 
05:40:07 <snow_richard> was wondering if perchance anyone had saved tarball of my michael code.  my website went away
05:41:05 <snow_richard> divorce stressfull but it will be good when it is over. 
05:41:06 <mur> website shoudl have moved too
05:41:30 <snow_richard> they couldn't find me it happended to have been time to pay for the next year
05:42:03 <mur> which one wanted divorce or both?
05:42:09 <snow_richard> i just got the net yesterday.
05:42:35 <snow_richard> I needed divorce to keep my sanity and sobriety
05:42:45 <mur> i have had internetconnection for 2 months but no computer to use it :P
05:42:55 <snow_richard> decided to stop drinking and doing drugs.
05:43:04 <snow_richard> except for prescriptions
05:43:05 * mur doesn't even do coffee :)
05:43:20 <mur> not to mention alcohol or smoking
05:43:38 <snow_richard> cigarettes I was able to quit after a week of being locked up in the psych ward :) 
05:43:48 <snow_richard> can't smoke in that hospital
05:43:58 <mur> smoking is stupid anyways
05:44:05 <mur> most stupid addiction there is
05:44:14 <snow_richard> was making me ill physically too
05:44:30 * mur dislikes strong smells
05:44:37 <snow_richard> but I don't want to give up my computer addiction and like my coffee too :) 
05:45:02 <mur> :)
05:45:12 <snow_richard> gave up my right to drive to enter this treatment facility
05:45:17 <mur> addicition becomes addiction when you can't quit even you wanted
05:45:37 <mur> drivers license i never wanted for ethical reasons
05:45:58 <snow_richard> oh you were the bicycling dude :) 
05:46:11 <snow_richard> i used to ride bike all the time before I smoked
05:46:32 <mur> heh, i use excelent public transportation
05:46:32 <snow_richard> and before I had car of course
05:46:41 <mur> helsinki has very good public transportation
05:46:50 <mur> and sometimes i walk
05:47:02 <snow_richard> well there are bus system here in shreve port but I am kind of under psychiatric care and need escort :) 
05:47:23 <mur> helsinki has also local trains, metro and trams
05:47:23 <snow_richard> but they are letting me go to church today
05:47:33 <mur> good
05:48:08 <snow_richard> finland?
05:48:31 <snow_richard> it sounds like pretty scenery.  
05:49:11 <mur> what sounds scenery?
05:49:26 <snow_richard> you have nice places to go visit in finland? 
05:49:35 <snow_richard> lakes? mountains?
05:49:43 <mur> 100000 lakes i think
05:49:59 <mur> not many mountains
05:50:05 <snow_richard> very cool I like to sit near water
05:50:12 <snow_richard> relaxing
05:50:22 <mur> stabile area, no earthquakes, volcanoes or storms
05:51:15 <mur> there are lot of very small lakes
05:51:38 <snow_richard> I spent several years on the ocean when I was in the Navy
05:52:19 <snow_richard> have never owned my own boat though
05:52:32 <mur> heh
05:52:36 * mur was also in navy
05:52:44 <mur> though as conscript who hates army system :)
05:53:40 <mur> first i was commanded to army and then i was commanded to main HQ and then to naval war school (part of navy) so i dont know really anything about boats nor land utiliites
05:53:40 <snow_richard> well hey I guess I remember enough about how that Michael code was done to recreate it so no big loss.  Usually its much better program the third or fourth time I recode it :) 
05:54:07 <mur> it ought to become better when recoding with motivation
05:54:17 <mur> then one knows what one is doing and can do better and clearer code
05:54:45 <snow_richard> I want to write the code with an aim to using it as an example in a programming course I want to write.
05:54:56 <snow_richard> so yes style is important
05:55:13 <mur> and more one thinks about something, more one sees aspects in it
05:55:32 <mur> but with no real information that usually becomes no real results :/
05:56:16 <snow_richard> hey I need to refill coffee brb
05:56:22 <mur> ok
05:58:14 <snow_richard> I could pick one application to code with the language to test if it is reasonably complete such as 
05:58:23 <snow_richard> a financial records system or something.
05:59:32 <snow_richard> almost 7:00 am.  Church in about three hours.
06:00:02 <snow_richard> I am learning to relax.  after 13 years with insane woman wanting something every three minutes it is taking a while.
06:01:28 <mur> :/
06:01:32 <snow_richard> probably need to get off of here for a little while. 
06:01:41 <mur> no problem
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11:38:50 <Suzanne> morning i440
11:40:02 <gilbertdeb> hi Suzanne
11:42:18 <I440r> hi :)
11:42:29 <I440r> hi gilbertdeb too :)
11:42:52 <gilbertdeb> whats new in #forth ?
11:43:36 <I440r> not much, ive been doing almost nothing on my forths 
11:43:48 <I440r> i got an interesting word tho that im going to STEAL from work
11:43:53 <I440r> ]#
11:43:57 <I440r> instead of doing
11:44:05 <I440r> [ x y z z y + ] literal
11:44:10 <I440r> inside a : def you do
11:44:16 <I440r>  [ x y z z y ]#
11:44:25 <I440r> much neater
11:44:35 * Suzanne is still doing some scheme stuff, i have to admit :P
11:44:43 <I440r> lol
11:44:46 <I440r> your fired!!!!!!!!!!
11:44:55 <I440r> i never looked at scheme
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11:49:21 <Suzanne> i440, its alright, better than lisp :)
11:49:44 <gilbertbsd> Suzanne which book are you reading for scheme?
11:49:58 <Suzanne> gilbert, i'm not
11:50:04 * Suzanne doesn't use books for learning, very often
11:50:13 <gilbertbsd> Oh? how are you doing it then?
11:50:40 <Suzanne> just read the standards for the functions, and try things in an interpreter :)
11:50:56 <gilbertbsd> read the standards?
11:51:18 <gilbertbsd> are you able to read the semantics stuff at the end of the standards too?
11:51:40 <Suzanne> yeah, in scheme's case R5RS
11:51:46 <Suzanne> gilbert, mostly, yes
11:51:50 <gilbertbsd> wow!
11:51:54 <gilbertbsd> Teach me!
11:52:04 <Suzanne> gilbert, heh, its just an experience thing
11:52:11 <gilbertbsd> Oh. :|
11:52:13 <Suzanne> understanding BNF isn't necessarily a bad thing tho :P
11:52:25 <gilbertbsd> I'm not talking about the bnf part per se.
11:52:36 <I440r> oh thers a bnf parser for forth on www.forth.org somewhere
11:53:03 <gilbertbsd> s/per se//
11:55:05 <gilbertbsd> Suzanne the 'abstract syntax' part.
11:55:18 <gilbertbsd> on pg 41 of the .ps 
11:56:37 <gilbertbsd> the whole of section 7.2 
11:57:15 <Suzanne> dunno, haven't seen the .ps
11:57:38 <Suzanne> oh, i see what you mean about section 7.2
11:57:56 <Suzanne> its sort of a mutation of 'Z' syntax
11:58:10 <gilbertbsd> Now I've gotta ask.
11:58:12 <gilbertbsd> What is Z?
11:58:16 <gilbertbsd> a spec language?
11:58:26 <Suzanne> gilbert, Z is a spec language, yes, by IBM
11:58:33 <gilbertbsd> gaaaaa
11:58:36 <Suzanne> its a bit like UML in some ways, but different in others
11:58:51 <gilbertbsd> I"m never going to decipher this stuff am I?
11:59:13 <Suzanne> you should be able to, eventually :)
12:00:07 <gilbertbsd> Suzanne do you know lambda calculus?
12:00:57 <Suzanne> not really ;/
12:01:07 <Suzanne> i sort of slept thru those lectures at uni :/
12:01:22 <gilbertbsd> I'm going to have to teach myself this stuff then.
12:01:34 <gilbertbsd> it is proving to be a will-o-the-wisp
12:01:46 <gilbertbsd> just when I think someone knows it and is going to reveal its secrets ...
12:02:03 <Suzanne> http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.07/07.05/LambdaCalculus/
12:02:08 <Suzanne> might be easy enough to follow
12:02:28 <gilbertbsd> so why are there whole books on it?
12:03:03 * Suzanne shrugs
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12:03:13 <Suzanne> why are there 1000 'learn VB in 21 days' books ? :)
12:03:20 <gilbertbsd> hahahahah
12:03:32 <gilbertbsd> oh I just noticed I had quit irc.
12:03:39 <gilbertbsd> what on earth is happening!
12:04:46 <Suzanne> btw, if you want to *learn* scheme, i would probably suggest PLT-Scheme/DrScheme
12:05:14 <Suzanne> although it's lacking the array functions for some reason ;(
12:05:24 <gilbertbsd> I'm using SICP.
12:05:42 <gilbertbsd> with the mit-scheme thingy
12:05:46 <Suzanne> *nod*
12:06:01 <Suzanne> i use Emacs + guile most of the time ;)
12:06:13 <gilbertbsd> I can't stand guile.
12:06:20 <gilbertbsd> a really nice one is umbscheme
12:06:29 <gilbertbsd> it displays your definitions for you .
12:06:36 <Suzanne> ah
12:07:03 <gilbertbsd> sort of like 'see' in forth.
12:07:20 * Suzanne nods
12:07:52 <Suzanne> the only thing that annoys me about scheme....
12:08:00 <Suzanne> is that LispMe doesn't do standalone compilation :/
12:08:13 <Suzanne> and i don't think libchicken will build for PalmOS
12:08:34 <gilbertbsd> heheh. libchicken?
12:08:43 <Suzanne> chicken is a Scheme->C compiler
12:09:32 <Suzanne> ie, you do:   chicken mycode.scm ; gcc -o mycode mycode.c -lchicken
12:10:16 <Suzanne> even if it did build for palm, the static version of libchicken is fscking huge, like 700KB
12:10:18 <gilbertbsd> a retargetable scheme ?
12:10:23 <gilbertbsd> or whats the word it is they use?
12:10:44 * Suzanne shrugs
12:10:53 <Suzanne> i'm not up on my buzzword compliance really :/
12:11:06 <gilbertbsd> tsk tsk tsk.
12:11:12 <gilbertbsd> what ARE the latest buzzwords anyway?
12:11:22 <Suzanne> tbh tho, i'm not sure chicken offers any real advantage over guile
12:11:38 <gilbertbsd> does guile do scheme->c as well?
12:11:44 <Suzanne> sort of
12:12:34 <Suzanne> guile consists of the program 'guile' and the backend libguile which you can link against to get scheme interpretation/compilation(in the same sense as forth 'compilation') from any app
12:13:01 <Suzanne> guile is probably slower, but has the advantage that gnome depends on it, so most 'desktop' linux/unix systems will probably already have guile/libguile installed already
12:13:25 <gilbertbsd>  guile
12:13:25 <gilbertbsd> bash: guile: command not found
12:13:25 <gilbertbsd> gilbert@kendall:~$ 
12:13:43 <Suzanne> hmmm, what happens if you do guile<TAB> ?
12:13:59 <Suzanne> anyway, as i said 'probably' :)
12:14:05 <gilbertbsd> nothing.
12:14:09 <Suzanne> odd
12:14:13 <gilbertbsd> guile: nothing appropriate.
12:14:15 <Suzanne> Gnome most definitely depends on it
12:14:45 <gilbertbsd> gnome: /etc/gnome /usr/share/gnome /usr/share/man/man1/gnome.1.gz
12:15:00 <Suzanne> try 'locate guile'
12:16:22 <gilbertbsd> it is there.
12:16:46 <gilbertbsd>      84
12:17:57 <gilbertbsd> that was 'locate guile | wc -l'
12:18:25 * Suzanne nods
12:18:40 <Suzanne> maybe you just have libguile somewhere *shrug*
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13:13:38 <I440r-wor> why the fuck does mirc default to my WORK nick grrr
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13:14:14 <I440r_> nonononono
13:14:21 <I440r_> fucking stupid mirc
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13:52:30 <arke> y0 all
13:53:31 <ianP> i used  this over mirc: http://www.xircon.com/pub/xircon/XiRC10B4.EXE
13:54:05 <arke> I440r: just use XChat and/or BitchX. they're both great, and both work in windoughs
13:54:39 <ianP> i use epic, bitchx has these annoying bugs
13:54:53 * arke has never used epic before
13:55:04 <ianP> its based off ircii, just like BitchX
13:55:08 <ianP> epic is great
13:55:48 <arke> ill take a look then.
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13:58:03 <ianP> downside si you need a script for it to make it look 'pretty like bitchx'
13:58:11 <ianP> upside is theres quite a bit out there ig uess
13:58:47 <arke> :)
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14:34:35 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:37:41 <Robert> Hi TheBlueWizard 
14:38:26 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
14:38:33 <TheBlueWizard> seen mur today?
14:38:38 <Robert> Nope.
14:38:43 <TheBlueWizard> k
14:38:55 <Robert> Time for The Simpsons!
14:39:27 <TheBlueWizard> heh
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15:42:00 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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16:04:07 <arke> SPLITS!
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16:44:26 <JP> Hi
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17:07:43 <JP> Is this a palce for only serious talk of Forth or is it a bit easier, or just no activity unless it is at the black belt level?  I am just wondering since I am new here but not new to Forth.
17:10:15 <rpc> from what i've seen so far, it's a pretty chill channel
17:18:52 <Herkamire> JP: we're pretty easy going. what's on your mind?
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17:38:07 <Herkamire> rrrrg. perl is annoying
17:43:26 <SDO> JP, it is a forum for whatever you want to talk about FORTH, and we have a tendancy to talk about other stuff too.
17:51:02 <JP> That is nice, I will talk more later.  I am converting a program from F83s to Win32Forth.  Distracted today by having bought a new notebook that is wireless.  We set it up for hte network and now VNC quit working on that XP machine.
17:55:05 <I440r> hi jp :)
17:55:11 <I440r> convert it to isforth instead :)
17:59:39 <JP> I would like to data mine comp.lang.forth by modifying the spamBasyian filter but it is programed in Python
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18:56:38 <Herkamire> JP: python is a pretty cool language. I reccomend learning at least the basics if you have time.
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19:47:42 <Herkamire> wb kc5tja :)
19:50:04 <kc5tja> re
19:50:30 * kc5tja is still looking for money-making opportunities in the relatively near term.
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19:56:22 <Herkamire> kc5tja: are you doing any marketing?
19:57:19 <kc5tja> At the present moment, I can't.
19:57:51 <kc5tja> I have no telephone (and roommates aren't comfortable with me using their personal line for my business, plus it's a bit of a hassle for me anyway), though that'll be rememdied soon, I hope.
19:58:08 <kc5tja> Moreover, I can't afford the reproduction costs for creating flyers and whatnot.
19:59:02 <kc5tja> I'm thinking of targetting a severely specialized market though -- computer consultation services for college students.
19:59:24 <kc5tja> I probably won't make much, but I'm guessing that my new customer sign-up rates would increase.
19:59:37 <kc5tja> As long as I can afford to pay rent, though, that's all I *really* care about.
20:33:51 <Klaw> money-making opportunities is a bad word
20:33:55 <Klaw> phrase
20:33:59 <Klaw> whatever the case, it's naughty
20:34:19 <kc5tja> Not when you need to pay rent and auto insurance.
20:34:35 <kc5tja> And you've been unemployed for pretty close to a year.
20:34:40 <Klaw> yes, well if you search for "money-making opportunities" on google, you've a better chance of losing your rent than paying for it
20:34:57 <kc5tja> Dude, I'm not that stupid.
20:35:08 <kc5tja> Spam don't work on me.
20:35:08 <Klaw> well your phrase offended me
20:35:17 <kc5tja> Deal with it.
20:35:22 <Klaw> I'm trying
20:35:32 <kc5tja> A money-making opportunity is just that: an opportunity for me to earn some income.
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20:38:05 * kc5tja is thinking of narrow his company's focus to target college students, and to offer tutoring in using Windows and Microsoft Office products effectively.
20:38:23 <kc5tja> Maybe do the occasional student website too.
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20:45:23 <Herkamire> kc5tja: nice idea :)
20:45:28 <Herkamire> advertising for that should be easy.
20:45:50 <kc5tja> Well, it certainly is a narrower niche than what I was going for, so it should be more cost effective marketing.
20:46:10 <Herkamire> photocopy 50 sheats and spread them around campus with pull-off tabs on how to contact you.
20:46:25 <kc5tja> Now I just have to wait for the moro...er...other roommate to leave before I can call to have my phone line installed.
20:47:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I have to get permission to post advertisements at both UCSD and Mira Costa, as far as I can tell.
20:47:14 <Herkamire> a phone would be good :) (especially as much of your work could be people that need you to set up their computer so they can do email)
20:47:16 <kc5tja> I hope said permission doesn't involve money.
20:47:45 <Herkamire> good luck :)
20:47:51 <kc5tja> Thanks
20:47:57 <Herkamire> you should be able to get them up somewhere especially where you're a student
20:48:11 <kc5tja> Currently, that'd be Mira Costa.
20:48:25 <kc5tja> Which is 30 miles north.  Which is why I'm looking to cover both Oceanside and University City areas.
20:58:47 * arke is gonna kill somebody
20:58:57 <arke> his name is Manfred vo Thun
20:59:02 <arke> von*
20:59:09 <arke> Manfred von Thun has got to die.
21:00:32 <arke> anybody know who he is?
21:00:41 <arke> or, more importantly, what he made?
21:00:47 <kc5tja> No.
21:00:49 <arke> or, where he stole that idea from?
21:00:53 <kc5tja> and, no, in that order.
21:00:56 <kc5tja> And No.
21:00:56 <kc5tja> :)
21:01:01 <arke> Manfred von Thun made Joy
21:01:12 <arke> now, Joy is the most evil p.o.s. i have ever seen.
21:01:26 <arke> However, Joy is based upon something else, much less evil
21:01:32 <Herkamire> who cares?
21:01:44 <arke> Herkamire: I had that idea first.
21:01:54 <arke> I made up the whole concept, a long time ago.
21:01:56 <Herkamire> what's Joy?
21:02:12 <arke> and I suddenly find somebody stole it, and also made it an evil p.o.s. while he was at it.
21:02:21 <arke> Herkamire: a functional forth.
21:02:26 <Herkamire> oh, that makes sense. Your mad because someone twisted your idea and made it look like a shitty one.
21:02:47 <arke> somebody took my idea.
21:02:48 <arke> yes
21:02:57 <arke> and they didnt know my implementation idead
21:03:05 <Herkamire> functional as in "functional programming" or as in "working"
21:03:10 <arke> and not only did they claim credit, they made it SUCK!!
21:03:15 <arke> as in functional programmming
21:03:32 <Herkamire> I still have a tenuous grasp on what "functional programming" means.
21:04:36 <arke> functional programming --- functions are like the highest type or whatever
21:04:44 <kc5tja> Functions are ALL you have.
21:04:49 <kc5tja> EVERYTHING in the system is a function.
21:04:58 <arke> basically, loops are functions, and there is plenty of lambda
21:05:11 <Herkamire> nifty.
21:05:13 <arke> well, most functional languages have some imperative features
21:05:17 <Herkamire> what about data?
21:05:21 <arke> this prevents you from killing your family.
21:05:29 <arke> Herkamire: non-existant, usually.
21:06:01 <kc5tja> Believe it or not, only a very select few functional languages have imperative features.
21:06:10 <kc5tja> Pure functional languages have zero imperative features.
21:06:11 <Herkamire> are they usefull for more than solving mathimatical problems?
21:06:12 <arke> kc5tja: hmm??
21:06:33 <arke> Herkamire: yes.
21:06:39 <kc5tja> ML is the only functional language that I personally know of that has limited imperative capabilities.
21:06:39 <arke> Herkamire: SML is actually pretty nice.
21:06:51 <Herkamire> oh, I know something about sml I think.
21:06:55 <arke> Scheme is considered functional.
21:07:02 <Herkamire> oh nifty
21:07:12 <Herkamire> ok, not quite as tenuous now :)
21:08:22 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Most Forth software is written in a functional manner -- take inputs from stack, leave results on stack, and don't change global state.
21:08:53 <kc5tja> This is yet another reason why Forth is impossible to classify as a strictly imperative language.
21:09:45 <Herkamire> so if you take away accessing memory/heap from forth it would be quite functional?
21:09:51 <kc5tja> Although it is also true that Forth is probably best kept a mixture of functional and imperative styles.
21:09:59 <arke> heh
21:10:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire: If you could get away with that, it would be the very definition of a Functional Language(tm).
21:10:13 <arke> Herkamire: actually, My idea still allows imperative features.
21:10:39 <arke> Herkamire: such as global variables, and memory allocation.
21:10:44 <arke> Herkamire: and types.
21:10:58 <Herkamire> "imperitive" means it works as a list of instructions/calls right? like no funny business; the program does this, then this, then this, then this.
21:11:01 * kc5tja LOVES the way ML and Haskell deal with user-defined datatypes.
21:11:01 <arke> Herkamire: it implements a non-strict type system
21:11:19 <arke> l0l
21:11:23 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Imperative means you're bossing the computer around like the brainless slave that it is.
21:11:24 <arke> Herkamire: basically
21:11:26 <kc5tja> Do this.
21:11:27 <kc5tja> Do that.
21:11:31 <kc5tja> No, do this instead.
21:11:37 <Herkamire> gotcha
21:11:39 <Herkamire> I like those.
21:11:44 <Herkamire> makes me feel smart ;)
21:12:02 <kc5tja> Functional style is a type of declarative programming: you're describing what has to get done, but in a style NOT so much bossing the computer around, as it is you're setting goals.
21:12:25 <kc5tja> Logic programming is another form of declarative programming.
21:12:38 <Herkamire> arke: what do you mean non-strict typing. you mean it prints "warning: it looks like you're using the wrong type." instead of "Error: you used the wrong type. (reseting)"?
21:12:40 <arke> Herkamire: well, anyway, Fifth (as i might call it) has a nice form of creating on-the-fly functinos and variables
21:12:47 <arke> Herkamire: no.
21:12:51 <kc5tja> It just so happens that most functional styles map directly to imperative implementations with only minor massaging.
21:12:58 <arke> Herkamire: it doesnt check types at all, but it does allow their use
21:13:16 --- quit: JP (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:13:20 <kc5tja> Fifth is already taken
21:13:24 <arke> damn
21:13:30 <kc5tja> Sixth isn't, as far as I know.
21:13:31 <arke> Funth then
21:15:02 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm pleased to note that my FS/Forth target compiler properly creates word entries in its forth vocabulary.
21:15:25 <kc5tja> I have no means of searching the vocabulary yet though.  
21:15:57 <kc5tja> but I have enough to implement the target's version of :, which is probably the next thing I should implement.
21:16:09 <arke> Bah.
21:16:31 <kc5tja> (and that means scanning the vocabulary isn't too far behind)
21:16:33 <arke> I should make a Funth compiler/whatever.
21:16:41 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I can see two ways of doing declarative programming: 1) say what needs to be done (in order or not) 2) say the results you want, and give it a bunch of rules (logic stuff)
21:16:41 <Herkamire> fith is taken too
21:16:52 <arke> yes, fith is a speaking language
21:17:34 <Herkamire> arke: have you written a forth before?
21:17:35 <uuter> natural language?
21:17:43 <arke> ill write you guys some sample funth code.
21:17:48 <arke> Herkamire: nope :P cant be hard.
21:17:54 <kc5tja> Herkamire: The order isn't explicit with functional programming -- the compiler determines order of operations from the function graph it builds, just like you'd determine the order of operations from looking at an algebra equation in a math text (in fact, they use *exactly* the same rules)
21:17:56 <Herkamire> uuter: www.langmaker.com/fith.htm
21:18:29 * kc5tja tried adapting Forth to written text, and it worked astonishingly well.
21:18:58 <Herkamire> arke: write a forth that works.
21:18:58 <kc5tja> The English vocabulary isn't well suited towards that structure though.  I ended up using a lot of hyphenated words because, in English, many singular concepts take two or more words in English to express.
21:19:11 <Herkamire> kc5tja: glad to hear you're making progress with FS/Forth
21:19:24 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It's slow, but I feel I can do nothing else at the moment.
21:19:54 <Herkamire> nothing like unemployment to give time to your hobby[s]
21:19:56 * kc5tja is really, really glad that he wrote FS/Forth for DOS -- I learned a lot from the experience.
21:20:14 <kc5tja> Many mistakes that I'm circumventing this time around.
21:20:23 <Herkamire> yeah. I learned a rediculous amount in writing my forths
21:20:46 <kc5tja> Like, I'm fast approaching the point where it can start compiling colon definitions.
21:20:54 <kc5tja> And I've only written a handful of screens of source.
21:21:03 <Herkamire> yeah. I make a quick and dirty forth in C a couple years ago. I've avoided many mistakes this time around :)
21:21:22 <kc5tja> Dude, programming is like music or painting.
21:21:31 <Herkamire> explain...
21:21:34 <kc5tja> You just have to "jam" with it.
21:21:42 <kc5tja> If it doesn't sound/look/feel right, chuck it, and start over.
21:21:43 <Herkamire> practice :)
21:21:50 <Herkamire> really.
21:21:53 <kc5tja> Oh, and practice too.
21:21:58 <kc5tja> That's an orthogonal issue, but I fully agree.
21:22:17 <Herkamire> I have a theory that the reason there's so much crappy software out there is that people resist chucking stuff.
21:22:27 <kc5tja> Very much so.
21:22:31 <kc5tja> I can't agree more.
21:22:42 <kc5tja> They design for code re-use, when there should be idea re-use as well.
21:22:47 <Herkamire> people feel that they can't chuck some stuff (like their OS)
21:22:51 <kc5tja> Code re-use is good only in a limited number of instances.
21:23:01 <Herkamire> or that it would be a lot of work (in the case of code they've spent a month making)
21:23:17 <kc5tja> You know, I've been considering just skipping the whole Linux version of FS/Forth and going straight native with it.
21:23:41 <Herkamire> and then they waste three months next year dealing with it when they could have spent one week now chucking the month of crap and doing it right.
21:23:42 <kc5tja> but then I came to my senses, and thought, "Yeah, but then I'd be restricted to using GForth under Linux...iick!"
21:23:59 <Herkamire> hehe :)
21:24:20 <Herkamire> yeah. I keep asking myself if I want my forth to run under linux.
21:24:40 <Herkamire> and I keep wanting to say no because it would be easier
21:24:56 <Herkamire> but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be using linux for a while, and I wanna play with my forth.
21:25:05 <kc5tja> Well, I know for a fact coding for Linux is much harder than just hacking raw hardware.
21:25:11 <Herkamire> hopefully it won't add too much cludge to have it run under Linux too.
21:25:21 * kc5tja nods
21:25:33 <kc5tja> Well, I'm investigating ways to move the "shell" out of the Forth kernel.
21:25:44 <kc5tja> I simply do not want any user interface at all built-in to the Forth kernel.
21:25:45 <Herkamire> yeah, but I don't care if it runs on anybody elses linux :) I'm fine with mmapping /dev/fb/0 and doing the graphics through that
21:25:52 <kc5tja> The shell must be loaded and run as any other application.
21:26:21 <Herkamire> yeah. I think that's good stuff.
21:26:26 <kc5tja> This way, I can have a console-only shell, an SDL shell, etc.
21:26:38 <Herkamire> what's the word that interprets a string from the stack?
21:26:46 <kc5tja> EVALUATE
21:26:58 <Herkamire> I agree it should be seperate.
21:27:01 <Herkamire> it is in my forth.
21:27:08 <kc5tja> It should be in every Forth.
21:27:17 <kc5tja> EVALUATE is extremely handy to have.  Immensely.
21:27:19 <Herkamire> my kernel doesn't even know about text
21:27:31 <kc5tja> Well, mine will, because it has to LOAD blocks from storage.  :)
21:28:00 <kc5tja> Speaking of which, I'm undecided how big to make the block buffer cache.
21:29:38 <Herkamire> I've been thinking today about whether I should make my source tokens 32 bits instead of 16
21:29:59 <Herkamire> heh :)
21:30:01 <kc5tja> Well, if it's any consolation, I've only allocated space for 1024 words in my Forth dictionary.
21:30:09 * kc5tja is planning on only 256 to 512 compiler words.
21:30:19 <Herkamire> I haven't really thought beyond the point where I will have enough data that it doesn't all fit in memory at once :)
21:30:30 <Herkamire> 256MB on this thing :)
21:30:50 <kc5tja> The Forth vocabulary takes up 20KB of space with 1024 words.  :)
21:31:06 <kc5tja> The compiler vocabulary will take up either 5 or 10KB, not sure yet.
21:31:22 <kc5tja> And the target compiler is aware only of 16KB of code space.  :D
21:31:42 <kc5tja> (of course, the run-time will support gigabytes of code space)
21:32:50 <Herkamire> brb
21:33:22 <kc5tja> I think in the next version of the target compiler I build, I'm going to keep track of relocation references, so that I can just spit out an ELF file directly, instead of dealing with a custom loader format (which I'm going to base on the EA-IFF-85a standard)
21:36:10 <Herkamire> nice
21:36:34 <kc5tja> This way I can just create stand-alone Linux applications if I wanted.
21:36:45 <Herkamire> wait, 16KB space for compiled code?
21:36:49 <kc5tja> (That is my ultimate goal too -- that is something I direly miss from the days of PygmyForth)
21:36:59 <kc5tja> For the target compiled code, yes.
21:37:14 <kc5tja> That is, the code generated by the FS/Forth target compiler cannot exceed 16KB.
21:37:30 <arke> alright, who wants to hear some more funth stuff?
21:37:32 <Herkamire> I had it as a pretty high priority to make a standalone linux binary. Now I have, and I don't really that much.
21:37:41 <arke> i really want to present my ideas to people for them to judge
21:37:44 <Herkamire> I don't intend to distribute a binary to anyone... ever
21:37:55 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I do.
21:38:01 <kc5tja> arke: Ok.  Shoot.
21:38:06 <arke> alright.
21:38:10 <kc5tja> arke: It sucks.
21:38:10 <kc5tja> ;D
21:38:17 <kc5tja> (hey, you asked.  ;D)
21:38:26 <arke> the Forth CREATE DOES> system is also present in Funth
21:38:27 <kc5tja> Sorry, I'm being facetious.  :D
21:38:35 <arke> the constant type can be defined as
21:38:40 <Herkamire> arke: I wish I had time, but I gotta go to bed. I'll review the logs tomorrow.
21:38:49 <arke> constant ( create ( , ) does ( @ ) )
21:38:55 <arke> Herkamire: ok :)
21:39:06 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I do.  I intend very much on making some Linux applications, then distributing it as open source.  In Forth.  Fuck the GCC bigots.
21:39:11 <Herkamire> kc5tja: cool. good luck with ELF. I hear relocations are a bit of a pain.
21:39:24 <kc5tja> Herkamire: They are, and they aren't, at the same time.
21:39:31 <kc5tja> Herkamire: But I won't do that until I get my current system running.
21:39:52 <kc5tja> arke: I'm not sure how to parse that.  That is looking a lot like Scheme at this point.
21:39:55 <kc5tja> Or Lisp in general.
21:39:58 <arke> lol
21:40:03 <arke> its because theres no indentation
21:40:10 <arke> i kinda made Funth use lots of parens
21:40:18 <arke> constant 
21:40:19 <arke> (
21:40:21 <arke>  create (
21:40:23 <arke>   ,
21:40:26 <arke>  ) does (
21:40:29 <arke>   @
21:40:30 <arke>  )
21:40:31 <arke> )
21:40:37 <kc5tja> I didn't expect something like that to use indentation.
21:40:47 <kc5tja> As a Forth programmer, I like to keep short definitions on a single line.
21:40:52 <arke> heh
21:40:54 <Herkamire> I might distribute a binary. But it seems the major advantage to distributing a binary is that I could do away with the bootstrapping process. and I'm hesitant to do that.
21:41:00 <arke> you can indent anyway you want.
21:41:32 * kc5tja nods
21:41:41 <Herkamire> my current excuse for wanting the bootstrap is so I can continue to use version control (svn ATM) on my source blocks.
21:42:10 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I'm looking to write certain X11 applications in FS/Forth.  People won't want to haul around a Forth runtime for applications I write in FS/Forth.
21:42:51 <Herkamire> kc5tja: agreed. I would definately want standalone capability if I was writing software programs for general use.
21:43:06 <kc5tja> arke: I still don't see the parsing rules for it though.  To me, create is a verb; in your system, it looks like a declaration.
21:43:24 <Herkamire> it's just that I'm making a system (with software _in_ it) not software for any existing system
21:43:34 <arke> kc5tja: create is analogous to CREATE
21:43:47 <arke> :D
21:44:07 <arke> create ( , ) does ( @ )    ==>   CREATE , DOES> @
21:44:13 <Herkamire> arke: what's with all the perens?
21:44:18 <Herkamire> sorry, I was going to bed...
21:44:19 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Understood.  Remember that to make a stand-alone application, you save the entire Forth environment as a turn-key application -- no linking or anything is necessary; whatever is in the dictionary gets spit out into the new ELF file.
21:44:51 <arke> Herkamire: in actual apps, there wouldnt be many parens.
21:44:54 <kc5tja> That's what I mean; the ( , ) makes create look like a declaration, not a verb that actually does something.
21:44:57 <arke> Herkamire: this is just for my example
21:45:39 <arke> kc5tja: oh.
21:45:43 <kc5tja> So create is a true verb in your system then.
21:45:48 <Herkamire> kc5tja: yeah. I'll have to look up "turn-key" again, but I get your drift. my forth saves a binary when you press "S"
21:45:53 <Herkamire> good night
21:46:00 <kc5tja> 'night Herkamire
21:46:05 <arke> yes.
21:46:06 <arke> same with if
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21:46:24 <arke> some_condition if ( blah ) else ( cheese )
21:46:57 <kc5tja> OK
21:47:11 <kc5tja> Do ( and ) do anything though?
21:47:14 <arke> its just a few select words that use that syntax.
21:47:21 <arke> they are simply delimiters.
21:47:27 <kc5tja> Are they required?
21:47:47 <arke> kc5tja: if they arent there, they act kinda like in C.
21:48:05 <arke> for example, if ( blah cheese ) would execute blah and cheese only if the condition was true.
21:48:20 <arke> if blah cheese would execute blah if the condition was true, but cheese either way
21:48:29 <kc5tja> OK, so: condition? if blah blort else cut cheese is illegal, but condition? if blah else cheese is legal.
21:48:44 <arke> yes.
21:48:54 <kc5tja> Gotcha.
21:49:02 <arke> hrm.
21:49:07 <kc5tja> So ( and ) create virtual words.
21:49:19 <arke> ( and ) have very many uses
21:50:25 <arke> ( ) are function delimiters, special word delimiters, and lambda delimiters.
21:51:11 <kc5tja> I'm not entirely sure I like the presence of special delimiters.
21:51:12 <arke>  for example, you can't pass a direct adress.
21:51:29 <arke> kc5tja: hrm :D they arent required really.
21:51:46 <kc5tja> Well, continue.  :)
21:52:01 <arke> you have to pass addresses to functions.
21:52:15 <arke> for example, when i do (string "Hello, World!\n") print
21:52:18 <arke> the following happens
21:53:10 <arke> the compiler sees ( , and knows a lambda is following
21:53:15 <arke> string "Hello, World!
21:54:07 <arke> just tells it to make a space in memory, and mark it as a string. No name associated with it though. Also, it is discarded once the calling function ends.
21:54:09 <kc5tja> Right -- like I said, ( compiles a virtual word, and ) compiles its address for execution.
21:54:14 <arke> (garbage collection)
21:54:23 <arke> yes, exactly.
21:54:36 <arke> so, on the stack, is a pointer to the header of something
21:55:36 <arke> now, when print executes, it takes the stuff from string.
21:55:48 * kc5tja nods
21:56:01 * kc5tja chuckles -- maybe you should call it Fithp.  :)
21:56:12 <arke> well
21:56:15 <arke> actually
21:56:20 <arke> i think i kinda messed up.
21:56:23 <arke> :D
21:56:34 <arke> the way i thought of is probably not going to work
21:56:53 <arke> alright.
21:56:55 * kc5tja has a friend that is wondering about code quotation in Forth (William Tanksley; maintainer of the concatenative language group).  Do you mind if I forward this to him?
21:57:19 <arke> no, no problem :)
21:57:30 <arke> this might be good
21:57:35 <arke> give him my email address too :)
21:57:45 <kc5tja> I don't have your e-mail address.
21:58:01 <arke> are you sure? :P
21:58:14 <kc5tja> Quite.
21:58:23 <kc5tja> But I'm sure with sufficient digging, I can find it out.
21:58:24 <arke> lol
21:58:31 <kc5tja> Google is my friend.
21:58:41 * arke hides
21:59:03 * kc5tja ponders creating a site called Giggle.  :D
21:59:32 <kc5tja> brb
22:01:57 <arke> :D
22:27:53 <kc5tja> back
22:28:04 <arke> ok :)
22:28:11 <arke> i was thinking about it a little more.
22:28:18 <kc5tja> Damn, I'm hungry, and I've nothing to eat.  I should have bought some kind of snack or something.
22:28:23 <arke> l0l
22:28:31 <arke> well
22:28:38 <arke> a string in memory would look like this:
22:29:09 <arke> push cheese
22:29:17 <arke> cheese: db "My String"
22:29:21 <arke> erm
22:29:23 <arke> no
22:29:25 <arke> push cheese
22:29:26 <arke> ret
22:29:32 <arke> cheese: db "My String"
22:29:52 * kc5tja nods
22:30:15 <arke> hrm ... the problem with that is that its 6 bytes bulk for every string
22:30:57 <kc5tja> I can't see any way around it.
22:31:09 <kc5tja> At some point, something will need to be pushed onto the stack.
22:34:34 --- quit: proteusguy (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:35:34 <arke> yeah.
22:35:42 <arke> dynamic type checking would be even worse
22:35:43 <kc5tja> Oh well.  I suppose I should code the vocabulary scanning code.
22:35:48 <arke> so i guess thill have to do.
22:36:07 <arke> hey --- are you coding FS/Forth in DOS asm?
22:36:12 <kc5tja> No
22:36:20 <kc5tja> FS/Forth for DOS is written with Pygmy Forth.
22:36:29 <kc5tja> FS/Forth for Linux is being written with GForth.
22:36:34 <arke> oh he
22:36:36 <arke> h
22:36:59 * kc5tja uses self-built target compilers to code the final FS/Forth environment with.
22:37:18 <kc5tja> It helps keep track of all the state that exists in a Forth environment (e.g., word lists, user variables, etc)
22:38:02 <arke> :)
22:39:37 <arke> i should write some docs on Funth
22:40:33 <kc5tja> Always a good idea.
22:41:42 <arke> yep.
22:43:17 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:43:21 <Serg_Penguin> hi
22:45:01 <arke> y0
23:17:10 <kc5tja> Man, I love having the return stack directly and explicitly exposed to me.
23:28:30 <kc5tja> Anyway, I'm getting punchy.  Going to bed.
23:28:48 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:29:54 --- quit: Serg_Penguin ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.09.07