00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.29 00:02:55 --- join: arke (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 00:03:51 gilbertdeb: such 'ads' are pushing the people towards trying, what leads to abuse 00:04:10 Serg_Penguin Morphine is not at all about the drug. 00:04:12 At all. 00:04:21 At all. not even by a stretch. 00:04:33 if they're going to try it, they will regardless! 00:04:43 and, lack of true info on how do drugs work 00:04:49 besides, morphine has perfectly acceptable uses. 00:06:04 Serg_Penguin it is all a matter of balance. 00:06:21 fridge: pain release has nothing in common w/ escapism 00:06:32 there is no good/bad about Vodka ... but its abuse allows for interpretations 00:06:38 or hallucinations 00:06:49 Serg_Penguin let them escape, as long as they work hard and pay their taxes. 00:07:08 i attack only abuse and adv., and not substance itself 00:07:47 Serg_Penguin I think people should be free to take whatever they want as long as alcohol and cigarretes remain free for consumption. 00:07:55 ex. for Prosac, LSD, Ritalin etc what have NO HELL of 'acceptable use' 00:08:22 Serg_Penguin prozac does: it keeps bored housewives happy. 00:08:32 besides, it is *good* for the economy. 00:08:51 ??? it hurts brains forever 00:09:03 more ritalin/prozac sales is good for gdp Serg_Penguin. 00:09:16 1. it has to be prescribed ... so the doctor's visit makes some money. 00:09:31 some people don't measure the value of things in dollars gilbertdeb 00:09:34 2. the pharmaceutical company in turn makes money for making it, and selling it via its distributors :) 00:09:43 fridge I don't either I'm being sarcastic. 00:09:47 =) 00:10:05 fridge but at the same time, people make a lot of noise about all these drugs and say nothing about alcohol and cigarretes! 00:10:08 gilbertdeb: the psy-drug industry is as must-die as criminal one 00:10:22 Serg_Penguin so must the alcohol/ciggarrete one! 00:10:28 sure 00:10:41 but not by rapid violence 00:10:42 but I've never seen anyone close down a vodka factory or a cigarrette factory. 00:10:52 gilbertdeb: they make noise as often as possible, but their voices get drowned out by lobby groups 00:10:56 and statistically, they've done WAY more damage than ritalin or anything else has. 00:11:18 fridge thats why i say full steam ahead for all the others. 00:11:20 NSW is currently holding an alochol forum to try and find ways to solve the problem of widespread alcohol abuse in the community 00:11:27 it is really all a lot of hypocricy. 00:11:32 yeah 00:11:43 fridge right, but they won't kill it at its source! 00:11:56 no way, too much money involved 00:12:00 you don't see them closing down Fosters! or any other alcohol plant! 00:12:02 yep. 00:12:13 I've taken a lot of different drugs, but I haven't abused any of them 00:12:16 so by all means, let the ritalin factory make some $$$ as well. 00:12:25 fridge and let no one stop you. 00:12:29 everything in moderation. 00:12:37 thats reasonable no? 00:12:47 any chem. 'solution' of personal trubbles is crime against self, partial suicide 00:12:52 also, don't give it to pregnant women! bad for the babies. 00:12:56 its a good philosophy no matter where you apply it 00:13:08 food is a drug 00:13:13 fridge even water is abusable! 00:13:25 if you drink enough water, you can die of water intoxication. 00:13:58 and producing/prescribing chem's for this - is like helping one to commit suicide 00:14:51 Serg_Penguin as i said, it is good for the economy :) 00:15:33 people w/ damaged mind and ruined ethics are NO HELL GOOD for economy 00:15:40 even the dead person benefits the economy by helping out the undertaker, the coroner, the funeral director ... 00:15:47 it is all about $$$. 00:15:58 Serg_Penguin yes they are. they can pay taxes :) 00:16:09 'chaos merchants' ;(( 00:16:14 they're drones, they'll work hard for their money to buy drugs or alcohol. 00:16:21 Serg_Penguin yet no one stops them. 00:16:27 so, party on! 00:16:55 I think I'd rather be a bit crazy/mad (eccentric if I'm rich enough) than be on those sorts of drugs forever 00:17:05 --- quit: SDO ("client exiting") 00:17:07 here in RU, VODKA causes _huge_ loss of worktime and qualification/workability 00:18:19 not to say about errors (or even catastrophes) made by drunk or brain-burned men 00:18:30 people in every society do things to alter their mood 00:18:39 Serg_Penguin at the same time, it is increasing the profits of those who sell the vodka is it not? 00:18:40 I think its just another part of the human condition 00:19:04 i do alter my mood too, but no hell chemical way 00:19:20 --- quit: kc5tja ("[x]chat") 00:20:19 gilbertdeb: sure, their 'profits' do cost loss to others, it's an unethical profits 00:20:30 Serg_Penguin a lot is unethical. 00:20:37 Serg_Penguin cars pollute don't they? 00:20:42 but who cares right??? 00:21:05 it's loss 4 everyone, ex. for drug pushers 00:21:27 and for them too, coz their trash self's ethics and integrity 00:21:28 Serg_Penguin drug pushers are such a tiny part of the economy it isn't even relevant. 00:21:42 is investing in property unethical? 00:21:45 Serg_Penguin I'm talking about all those who make legitimate products whose by products we have to deal with. 00:22:26 Serg_Penguin for instance, Las Vegas was created more or less by the mafia... 00:22:42 howard hughs bought a few of the casinos up and legitimized it. 00:23:01 the govt is really happy at the contributions las vegas makes to the national economy! 00:23:32 yet, I think that too is terrible given that they never tell anyone the exact odds of them winning and also that no matter how much they win, the house wins each time. 00:24:09 Serg_Penguin the pursuit of profits is a very iffy thing, but some say we're going to die *anyway*. where would it end though??? 00:39:36 i'm pissed off ;((( rare i see justifying self-destruction so zealosly :((( 00:40:05 hahahah. 00:40:13 Serg_Penguin I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, ... 00:40:24 I drink a lot of tea with too much sugar. 00:40:33 and I don't exercise. 00:40:40 mee too, exactly ;))) 00:45:17 Serg_Penguin at the same time, I think those who wanna do what they wanna do should be free to. 00:45:55 they should be free to do whatever they want, good or bad. 00:46:09 you caffiene junkie 00:46:13 scum of society 00:46:26 :) 00:46:29 I drink tea. 00:46:59 ah and w/o judgement :) 00:47:18 I have tea sometimes 00:47:31 have to be in the right mood for it though 00:47:50 not sure which mood that is 00:47:54 but it has to be the right one! 00:48:05 I drink tea every day. 00:48:09 6 pots or so. 00:49:19 no, drug abuser hits many people 00:49:30 his family - 1st 00:49:44 the ones who he robs to buy drug - 2nd 00:49:48 Serg_Penguin yeah, it must all be done very responsibly. especially given the power these drugs have. 00:50:06 drugs? *chemicals. 00:50:23 they alter mind so one can no more be 'responsible' 00:51:06 Serg_Penguin alcohol does the same, and who is to say that reality isn't just a major mind alter? 00:51:55 brb 01:45:43 damn server farted out it's smoke soul ;(( 01:46:00 so i,m fighting fires 01:46:13 real flames? 01:46:23 no ;)) 01:46:43 if i would fite real flames, hardly could i chat ;)))) 01:48:46 once i was _nearly_ fighting real fire 01:49:01 so a nick 'fireman' sticked till i left the job 02:25:10 your nic here should then be fireman, or didn't you like it? 02:29:12 i'm not really a fireman ;)) i keep safety and avoid cautching fire, in all senses 02:29:39 btw, the incident was pretty stupid 02:29:52 we were trading trash hardw from USA 02:30:12 it has 110 power, so we were converting to our 220 02:31:02 once we plugged 110 crt by err, 1st time it worked, and guys said 'what a good one!" ;) 02:31:35 then loud KRAK and ceiling-high geenie of white smoke, w/ really stinking smell 02:32:55 hahahah 02:33:00 :) 02:33:07 thats funny, man. 02:34:16 not for us in a crowdy building full of oilpaint (it was under repair) 02:34:41 and full of all kinds of flammable cruft 02:34:45 uh oh. 02:35:23 in case of real fire, U-571 would be a christmas firetoy compared to our house 02:36:10 so i ran outta room to firehose box.. 02:36:25 grabbed big red damn thing, returned to room... 02:37:08 then read RTFM on it for a couple of seconds (near heavily smoking CRT ;) 02:38:06 heheh. 02:38:08 and finally, aimed the pipe to monitor's top, just like menacing man's head w/ funny ancient pistol 02:38:36 hahah. 02:39:49 i recall how in ABC school boys made tripwire bomb out of really big fire extinguisher 02:40:24 they tied a line to it's trigger, another end - to door handle 02:40:38 happily it was rotten and just pissed weakly 02:41:10 or teacher might get hundreds liters of -80C foam in her face :((( 02:41:30 hahahha. 02:41:40 sad, but funny none-theless. 02:42:04 * arke is away: sl33p .... zZzZzZzZZZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzzZZzZ 02:42:14 btw, is it shorter word for fire-extinguisher ? 02:42:23 it's a real tongue-tie ! 02:42:27 what is? 02:42:48 tongue-tie? 02:43:04 a long word what is hard to say correctly 02:43:08 yes I know. 02:43:22 ah okay. i see. 02:43:31 No word I know of for fire extinguisher. 02:43:38 everyone knows what to do in case of fire :) 02:43:46 just much action, little talking. 02:44:00 Extinguish means to put out. 02:44:13 yeah, i know 02:44:25 fire putter-outer. 02:44:55 in RU crime slang, it also means 'beat to half-deaf or unability to move' 02:45:13 half-deaTH 02:45:45 Uhoh. 02:51:16 Zzzzz 02:52:53 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 02:57:20 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 03:07:07 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 04:18:07 when implementing a vocabulary stack, should the first word in the wordlist have 0 as backlink? 04:18:25 i read Zech, a german forth book, and it does not do this. 04:18:47 but i get weird results with words being found even though they shouldnt and the other way round 04:35:08 are all of you guys dead? 04:43:41 --- quit: Klaw (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:43:41 --- quit: uuter (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:43:58 --- join: Klaw (~anonymous@ip68-4-157-105.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 04:43:58 --- join: uuter (~uuter@ajhg40uqy57xe.bc.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 04:51:25 --- join: Frek (~anvil@81-216-25-254.man2.calypso.net) joined #forth 06:17:22 --- join: draq (ident@203-219-179-14-nsw.tpgi.com.au) joined #forth 07:36:59 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h000094d30ba2.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 07:44:44 --- join: Fahr (root@e208057.upc-e.chello.nl) joined #forth 07:45:17 --- quit: Fahr (Client Quit) 09:08:41 * arke is back (gone 06:26:33) 09:10:20 --- join: jma (~jma@h-64-105-21-62.DNVTCO56.covad.net) joined #forth 09:21:45 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 09:21:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:25:09 re 09:25:58 Howdy 09:28:08 kc5tja: howdy :) 09:28:15 re 09:28:41 * kc5tja just woke up. Man, it is so peaceful here at night. :D 09:28:45 That alone made the move worth it. 09:28:51 :) 09:29:55 * kc5tja hopes to actually begin work on FS/Forth for Linux over this weekend. 09:30:28 My first goal is to get the raw compiled binary to print "Hello world" and exit from there. 09:31:15 nice 09:31:29 My approach is simply to make the Forth environment and provide built-in hooks for libdl's functions, so I can thereafter access any arbitrary .so function (including libc's if I need to) 09:31:59 Also, the interactive shell is itself a separate program for FS/Forth -- the Forth kernel will not contain any shell on its own. 09:32:29 That'll make it easier for me to make turn-key applications that rely on any UI I want -- SDL, X11, console, etc. 09:34:48 that sounds cool 09:37:28 kc5tja - ah, you moved.. nice. i have to do that at the end of the month :/ 09:37:58 Well, I'm still moving. Most of my stuff is down here, but I still have lots of books and tools and whatnot to move. And my good clothes. 09:45:45 \ 09:46:44 kc5tja: sounds like good stuff. 09:46:54 kc5tja: have you done linking to .so files before? 09:48:16 In C, yes. 09:48:38 libdl offers a mostly sane interface. Only its error-reporting mechanism is retarded. 09:52:21 kc5tja: are you going to use libdl in your forth kernel? or do it by hand? 09:57:38 Herkamire: The Forth image is loaded by a C trampoline, which offers as part of its C/Forth interface boundary, pointers to the three functions that libdl exposes. 09:58:12 The idea came to be in perusing XcolorForth, where it offers a couple of SDL function interfaces to ColorForth the same way. 09:59:14 s/be/me/ 10:14:22 cool 10:15:47 I would like to do it entirely from within a single ELF formatted file, but that's a bit outside my reach at the moment. 10:17:50 it's not too hard to make an elf with one section that loads it (with uninitialized memory) and starts executing 10:18:00 in asm that is 10:18:20 but I don't know anything about linking to C and libraries 10:18:27 that might make it difficult 10:23:57 no, but it is hard to make an ELF with a relocation fix-up record in it and one which references an external library, at that. 10:32:29 why would you need the relocation fix-up stuff? 10:32:40 you aren't making a .so file are you? 10:32:55 Because the loader needs the know what addresses in the program code refer to external libraries. 10:32:57 references to external libs I don't know how to do. that could make it tricky 10:33:08 oh right 10:33:24 References to external libraries are done *precisely* the same way inter-module, statically-linked references are done. 10:33:30 It's just taht they're done at load-time, not link-time. 10:33:33 that even 10:35:57 somebody in here (fractal?) made a forth that created a standalone elf, by turning each line in his forth source into a C string, and compiling an array of those into his C source. 10:38:12 * kc5tja nods 10:38:21 I'm probably going to do things a bit differently. 10:38:28 The "run-time" will be standard regardless of the program. 10:39:20 Each "executable," however, will start with the ASCII string "#!/path/to/runtime\012\000". So that the command /path/to/runtime will be executed everytime the "executable" is invoked. 10:39:37 That's probably how I'll do it. 10:40:20 I don't like that solution because it's heavily environmentally dependent, but it seems to offer the best compromise between flexibility and ease of construction. 10:42:05 The alternative is to build a real ELF with a real set of fix-up records for the three libdl functions. I only require three; the rest of the Forth environment will depend on the Forth words that contain them. 10:42:23 But that makes metacompilation more difficult, I think. 10:42:42 I'll have to look at the problem again to make sure all my bases are belong to me. 10:53:00 --- quit: jma () 11:02:55 all your base are belong to us 11:06:07 segfault -- you can have it. :D 11:16:02 well, I just wasted 2-3 hours on a stupid little bug. 11:16:22 Hehe 11:16:57 I don't do that very often anymore 11:18:21 but now my editer supports negative numbers 11:18:38 don't know why I put it off this long. wasn't that hard (except for the fruitless bug hunting) 11:19:13 Heheh :D 11:20:02 Negative numbers were never hard for me to support. But converting ASCII numerals into a number was a source of a lot of bugs for me. 11:20:09 in the DOS version of FS/Forth at least. 11:22:04 yeah, that's where my bug was. 11:22:30 I checked for a minus sign at the start, and if found, I encremented the string address (but forgot to decrement the count) 11:22:56 * kc5tja nods 11:23:06 I actually successfully got that the first time. 11:23:14 It was handling different bases that killed me. 11:23:28 Small, stupid, single bug, but it cost me something like five hours of hunting for it. 11:23:38 hate those 11:23:48 I only allow input in hex and decimal 11:24:14 * kc5tja nods 11:24:20 I don't like base really 11:24:27 Being a classical Forth, I actually like BASE a lot. 11:24:34 heh :) 11:24:36 interesting, but I don't really use it except to do hex occationally 11:24:51 I use it more for numeric output than input. 11:25:02 For numeric input, I prefer to use $-prefix for hex numbers. 11:25:09 yeah. 11:25:09 And '-prefix for character literals. 11:25:16 I found that mostly base introduced mode errors 11:25:50 in my forth base must be left at 10 11:26:14 /me awakens 11:26:15 I have: : h. 16 base ! u. 10 base ! ; 11:26:23 * fridge awakens, even 11:26:25 bf fridge 11:26:36 s/bf/wb/ 11:26:37 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-184-29.phnet.fi) joined #forth 11:26:49 * kc5tja prefers : h. base @ >R hex u. r> base ! ; 11:27:06 hehe 11:27:17 * mur first thought that was "now playing" and some weird band but it was forth :) 11:27:25 kc5tja: of course, but I always have base 10. 11:27:27 heheh 11:27:29 terve mur 11:27:35 terev 11:27:36 terve 11:28:07 Yes, but I like my words to have as little side-effects as possible. 11:28:24 me too 11:28:29 The more "functional" the system is, in a mathematical sense, the easier I find it is to debug and such. 11:29:06 I basically don't have base. the only reason I have base at all is so I don't have to write . twice (once for hex, and once for decimal) 11:29:21 it's not used by the user 11:29:30 (unless you want to write oct. or something) 11:29:58 to input hex, prefix with $. to output hex use h. 11:30:41 I've had too many 30min-2hour bug hunting experiences that were just because I left base with the wrong value. 11:31:03 in my forth every number is clearly the number it looks like. 11:31:35 Sure 11:31:37 I don't have problems where you're looking at "13" and it's really 19 11:31:47 Or worse, 11. :D 11:32:06 I agree that octal is worse :) 11:32:52 the octalites don't think so! 11:33:24 I really should buy a new desk... there isn't enough room for a text book or any reference material 11:33:38 http://www.mrack.com.au/32ssmidi.htm looks nice, but too expensive 11:33:46 fridge get an assitant to hold your books for you. 11:33:53 I'm still using the 'student desk' I was given when I was about 7 years old 11:33:54 preferrably to read it out to you if need be :) 11:34:14 Octal has its uses where you're dealing predominantly with 3-bit field.s 11:34:31 For modern architectures, 4-bit fields are preferable. 11:34:41 Some might even argue that 5-bit fields are preferred on Chuck's chips. 11:35:24 I'm a bit surprised that Chuck didn't invent dohexadecimal for his MuP21. :D 11:38:20 dohexa ? 11:38:30 28? 11:39:04 32 11:43:15 Anyway, I have some errands to run, so I'm going afk. 11:43:24 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 11:43:59 yeah, octal is great for 3bit fields. 11:44:14 the only place I use those enough to bother is with file permissions. 11:48:47 makes sense 12:28:46 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-91-231-74.san.rr.com) joined #forth 12:28:46 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 12:28:52 Back 12:29:02 * kc5tja is pleased to note that he has a meager $15 in his bank account. 12:30:34 * fridge pictures kc5tja on side of road with "Will forth for food" sign 12:31:26 http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-announce/2003-08/msg00022.php 12:31:29 thats annoying 12:31:33 "Will go forth" 12:31:34 :) 12:31:52 its about 4 months since we finished writing our own replication software 12:32:07 * fridge hates wasted duplication of effort 12:32:24 * Herkamire pictures kc5tja with a stand that says "advice, 25cents. Good advice, $25" 12:32:56 Hehe 12:33:30 Take my advice -- I don't need it anymore. 12:33:45 heheheh 12:57:02 --- join: ski (~md9slj@dada8.mdstud.chalmers.se) joined #forth 12:57:38 --- part: ski left #forth 13:03:14 * kc5tja just watched an interesting battle between this behemoth fly, and a weeny little spider. 13:03:17 The spider won, of course. :) 13:08:22 --- quit: draq (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:08:22 --- quit: uuter (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:08:22 --- quit: Klaw (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 13:09:40 --- join: draq (ident@203-219-179-14-nsw.tpgi.com.au) joined #forth 13:09:40 --- join: Klaw (~anonymous@ip68-4-157-105.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 13:09:40 --- join: uuter (~uuter@ajhg40uqy57xe.bc.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth 14:48:47 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 16:20:07 --- quit: mur ("Murr.") 17:41:30 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.42) joined #forth 17:41:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 17:41:42 hiya all...will be brief here 17:43:46 hello 17:43:56 hiya uuter 17:51:32 gotta zip...bye 17:51:43 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:31:22 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 20:21:34 --- join: foxchip (foxchip@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 20:49:11 hi foxchip :) 20:49:15 'sup? 20:50:23 hmm, was rearranging books and starting forth fell apart as I pulled it out of the shelf =~( 20:51:24 bummer 20:51:40 there is a HTML'ized version i think 20:53:45 I'd prefer an electronic version of thinking forth 20:53:50 as I haven't read that one yet 20:54:12 i think marcell hendrix has it on his page 21:20:57 --- quit: foxchip () 21:31:19 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedtime") 21:54:14 --- join: gilbertdeb (gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-142.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 22:02:16 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Told you I could quit any time!") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.29