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11:53:50 <Robert> Hi
11:53:57 <kc5tja> Howdy
11:58:22 <rk> hello
11:58:39 * kc5tja finished helping one of his friends move into a new apartment.
11:58:43 <kc5tja> Was up until 4AM.  :)
11:58:47 <kc5tja> (local time)
11:58:51 <rk> heh
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12:00:47 <Robert> I have to get to bed early again - school :(
12:01:04 <kc5tja> 4 more days until school starts for me.
12:01:14 <kc5tja> I suppose I should go and get my new parking sticker sometime, eh?  :D
12:01:32 <kc5tja> And then not long after, *I* have to move out.
12:02:12 <kc5tja> I think, to help make some extra cash, I'm going to introduce a new subscription-based service, since I can't find recurring revenue any other way.
12:02:36 <kc5tja> Someone here (MrReach) had mentioned it, but I couldn't think of what I could offer that was subscription-based.
12:02:45 <kc5tja> I believe I finally found it: spamless e-mail accounts.
12:03:06 <Robert> You mean those exist? :)
12:03:07 <kc5tja> *NOT* using SMTP or ?POP/IMAP protocols.
12:03:12 <kc5tja> Not yet.
12:03:23 <kc5tja> But it was a project I was working on while working for Armored Internet before we went under.
12:03:27 <Robert> Heh. You want to create a whole new system for e-mailing?
12:03:31 <kc5tja> Yes.
12:03:48 <Robert> How will you get people to use it (and spammers to avoid it)?
12:04:07 <kc5tja> The same way any other service provider does it: advertise.
12:04:34 <kc5tja> There are two channels I can persue.
12:04:55 <kc5tja> 1 is directly to the customer, where I have a website set up that people can sign up with, and creates their mail accounts and whatnot.
12:05:18 <kc5tja> 2 is to NSPs, where they implement their own servers and offer it to their customers.
12:07:08 <Herkamire> NSP?
12:07:12 <kc5tja> And, if I do say so myself, I think this could successfully be written in Forth.
12:07:15 <kc5tja> Network Service Provider.
12:07:40 <Herkamire> would it interoperate with standard email clients like mine?
12:07:48 <kc5tja> (All ISPs are NSPs, but the reverse isn't true; a company intranet is also an NSP)
12:07:52 <kc5tja> No.
12:08:01 <Herkamire> what's the point then?
12:08:03 <kc5tja> Standard e-mail clients are broken by design.
12:08:15 <Herkamire> some clients are ok, it's the protocols and stuff
12:08:36 <kc5tja> To stop spammers, but even more importantly, to put an *END* to spammers who forge headers and identities.
12:08:40 <Herkamire> I don't get any spam through aim or jabber
12:08:53 * kc5tja got bombarded with 200+ spams a few days ago, over half of which were people complaining TO ME that I was a spammer.
12:08:59 <Herkamire> kc5tja: have you looked at IM2000
12:09:01 <rk> heh
12:09:09 * kc5tja is NOT making an instant messenger.
12:09:14 <kc5tja> IMs are evil.
12:09:22 <kc5tja> They are the scourge of the Earth, and I refuse to use one.  Ever.
12:09:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: have you looked at IM2000? it's not instant messaging
12:09:38 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I never heard of it.
12:09:44 * Herkamire notes that irc isn't much different from IM
12:09:52 <kc5tja> IRC is very different from IM.
12:10:03 <kc5tja> I must consciously decide to be on IRC.
12:10:08 <kc5tja> Hence, I choose my distraction.
12:10:29 <kc5tja> IMs, however, are entirely "interrupt-driven."  When someone IMs you, you get a window popping up smack where you're trying to get work done.
12:10:46 <kc5tja> Or it plays some stupid tune or noise right when you're trying to concentrate most.
12:10:52 <Herkamire> http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html
12:11:13 <Herkamire> not on my client it doesn't
12:11:39 <kc5tja> Then what's the point of an IM?  :)
12:11:56 <Herkamire> same as talking on irc in my book
12:12:00 <kc5tja> I know a lot of companies use IMs for inter-departmental communications.
12:12:12 <Herkamire> I set my im program to make a noise
12:12:15 <kc5tja> They use it as a replacement for a telephone basically.
12:12:26 <Herkamire> we use email like that.
12:12:27 <kc5tja> Yes, a 'ring' signal.
12:12:39 <kc5tja> I already have a telephone which is plenty interrupting enough, thank you.
12:12:44 <Herkamire> I could just as easily set my irc program to beep
12:12:50 <kc5tja> I don't need IMs to compound an already epidemic-proportion problem.
12:13:17 <Herkamire> kc5tja: read the im2000 thing. it's a design and discussion of how email should work
12:13:52 <Herkamire> it makes spamming expensive, and very easy to block.
12:14:11 <Herkamire> as well as providing a way to actually know who a messsage is coming from
12:14:16 <kc5tja> My work with Armored involved authenticated communications channels.
12:15:48 <kc5tja> The system was intended to serve as a replacement for SMTP, POP/IMAP, and NNTP -- you might recall hearing about AMP?
12:15:55 <kc5tja> (Armored Messaging Protocol)
12:16:25 <kc5tja> I can't use the AMP name anymore, as I'm no longer in possession of the Armored name.  But I'm thinking of working on that system.
12:19:28 <kc5tja> I'm liking IM2000 already.  :)
12:19:39 <Herkamire> good. I was about to ask if you had read it.
12:19:44 <kc5tja> I'm reading it now.
12:19:52 <kc5tja> It is not mutually exclusive with some of my ideas, either.
12:20:06 <Herkamire> this is by the guy who wrote qmail.
12:20:33 <Herkamire> it seems like it has major advantages in every area
12:20:47 <Herkamire> lower bandwidth
12:21:16 <kc5tja> The problem is when the sending server goes down, but you have a ticket for a pending message.
12:21:34 <kc5tja> Other than that, I see the system as being one of the best things I've seen in a long, long, long time.
12:21:39 * kc5tja would like to play with this concept.
12:21:44 <Herkamire> cool :)
12:21:46 <kc5tja> This almost *reaks* CORBA.
12:22:03 <Herkamire> you reak of corba
12:22:29 <Herkamire> BTW I read quite about corba for a while, and I don't hate the idea anymore.
12:23:21 <kc5tja> CORBA is a damn nice system.
12:23:52 <kc5tja> People are turned off by its 800+ page specification, but it's actually not that hard of a read.  And, you really only need to read the first three chapters; the rest are technical details that you'd be interested in only if you were actually programming with it.
12:23:57 <Herkamire> I don't have an application for it, so it's hard for me to really see
12:24:08 <kc5tja> IM2000 can *easily* be implemented in CORBA.
12:24:23 <Herkamire> does CORBA do UDP?
12:24:38 <kc5tja> Not unless you write a transport layer for your ORB for it, no.
12:24:52 <Herkamire> what's ORB?
12:24:55 <kc5tja> GIOP requires a reliable, bi-directional byte-stream.
12:25:18 <Herkamire> why not use http?
12:25:27 <kc5tja> Object Request Broker -- the server a remote client connects to to access objects running on that machine.  Think of it as an HTTP server that talks exclusively to CGIs.
12:25:28 <Herkamire> I take that back. I don't really like http
12:25:50 <kc5tja> Because HTTP is woefully inefficient for use as a remote object method call system.
12:26:16 <Herkamire> I don't see where thered be a remote call anywhere in IM2000
12:26:32 <kc5tja> That's why I detest the folks who made SOAP and, to a smaller extent, XML-RPC -- they are just re-inventing a wheel that has already been calibrated and balanced.
12:26:34 <Herkamire> the sending server sends a udp packet to each recipient every once and a while
12:27:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: The recipient must be online to catch it
12:27:06 <Herkamire> the email client fetches the notifications from it's ISP, (optionally) fetches the messages from the sending servers
12:27:16 <kc5tja> Herkamire: And the odds of it catching a UDP packet from a sender is going to be virtually zero.
12:27:41 <kc5tja> I was going to say that the ISP must cache notifications.
12:27:53 <Herkamire> no no no. the ISP of the recipient recives the UDP packet (the notification) from the sending ISP
12:27:59 <kc5tja> I don't understand how you can say that you don't see a remote call anywhere there.
12:28:22 <Herkamire> I don't see one between the ISPs
12:28:27 <kc5tja> They're everywhere.
12:28:43 <Herkamire> I gues there would be one that I would use to send an outgoing message
12:28:46 <kc5tja> Every notification is like a subroutine call to a function that returns void.
12:28:58 <kc5tja> Every two-way protocol is built on what amounts to be remote subroutine calls.
12:29:03 <Herkamire> it's just one UDP packet with a URL in it
12:29:27 <Herkamire> the notification message is _NOT_ two way
12:29:34 <kc5tja> I DID NOT SAY IT WAS TWO WAY.
12:29:48 <kc5tja> I clearly stated, "Every notification is like a subroutine call to a function that returns void"
12:30:00 <Herkamire> "<@kc5tja> Every notification is like a subroutine call to a function "
12:30:15 <kc5tja> Please keep context.
12:30:23 <kc5tja> You didn't quote everything I said.
12:30:26 <Herkamire> it's not like a function call
12:30:29 <kc5tja> It is.
12:30:41 <kc5tja> A function that returns nothing.
12:30:47 <Herkamire> it's not executing something, it's sending something
12:30:47 <kc5tja> (Hence there's no reason to wait for it)
12:30:53 <kc5tja> That's executing something!
12:30:59 <kc5tja> "Oh look!  I have a new message now!"
12:31:20 <Herkamire> it's not a remove procedure
12:31:26 <kc5tja> It's a communique to the client, "Hey, enqueue this URL in your new messages list."
12:31:58 <Herkamire> yeah
12:32:37 <kc5tja> There is a subroutine to send that UDP packet, and there is a subroutine in the client to receive and process it -- hence, the UDP packet is just a communication of intent.
12:32:51 <kc5tja> The sending subroutine is the stub, the receiver the skeleton.
12:33:01 <kc5tja> The parameter is the contents of the packet.
12:33:15 <Herkamire> CORBA would probably be usefull in the clients communicating with their own ISP to send messages, retrieve notifications, and manage outgoing messages
12:33:24 <kc5tja> It's like calling "enqueue_new( 'mail://www.mailserver.com/some/message' );" in the server.
12:33:44 <kc5tja> How enqueue_new() is actually implemented is immaterial to you.
12:34:10 <kc5tja> It's just as useful talking to the sending server too.
12:34:28 <Herkamire> ok
12:34:34 <kc5tja> An object reference is very similar to a URL; it identifies source server, port number, and the "path" to the specific object.
12:34:47 <kc5tja> It does all the work a traditional URL does, only in a more compact representation (since it's real binary, not text).
12:35:58 <kc5tja> Oh, it also identifies the type of the object too.  Forgot to mention that.
12:36:28 <kc5tja> So it's possible to enqueue all sorts of things, not just mail messages.  Binary files need not be sent "as attachments" any more.  Oh the freedom!
12:36:46 <Herkamire> I would like to be able to create an http URL for messages in my outgoing box. but this does not have to be the format of the notification.
12:36:57 <Herkamire> this could be an additional (optional) service
12:38:24 <Herkamire> it's great to have outgoing stuff on your own server (or isp) then you can put as much crap in there as you like. large attachments are no problem. 
12:38:42 <kc5tja> Provided your large attachments fit in your ISP's storage allotment.
12:38:44 <Herkamire> you can make links in your e-mail to other e-mails/attachments in your outbox
12:38:56 <Herkamire> yeah :)
12:39:06 <kc5tja> Perhaps the biggest advantage is that the sending ISP can rescind a message too.
12:39:39 <kc5tja> So if a client is found to be spamming and his account killed, the ISP can send, "You know that message I informed you about?  Forget about it.  It doesn't exist anymore," messages to all the previous clients.
12:40:45 <Herkamire> oh yeah :) I was thinking about that a long time ago
12:40:57 <Herkamire> There could be some sort
12:41:04 <Herkamire> of black list on individual emails
12:41:16 <Herkamire> I don't know if that's useful
12:41:28 <Herkamire> why not just blacklist the whole account
12:41:58 <Herkamire> My favorite thing about it is that clients can implement whatever sort of blacklists they want.
12:42:07 <Herkamire> easily!
12:42:27 <Herkamire> now the only way to come close to that is with email client scripts that goes and deletes e-mails that it thinks are spam.
12:43:24 <Herkamire> problem is you still have to download them. and these scripts are hard to write. Eudora has some nice scriptability in this, but it's hard to identify senders and bla blabla
12:43:26 <kc5tja> But IM2000 still won't make spamming stop.
12:43:30 <kc5tja> It won't even deter it.
12:43:49 <Herkamire> it does a lot to deter it
12:44:12 <kc5tja> Herkamire: A Bayesian filter works on message content, and is known to be an outstanding performer.  As far as I know, it has never given a false positive on an innocent mail.
12:44:15 <Herkamire> you won't be able to send spam very well on a dynamic IP
12:44:49 <kc5tja> True.  That's why the spammers will make their own ISP, with their own disk quotas of several gigs per client.
12:45:21 <Herkamire> it's not that hard to blacklist those servers
12:45:33 <kc5tja> I feel it only delays the inevitable
12:45:42 <kc5tja> I like IM2000, I think it has benefits beyond the spam issue.
12:45:58 <kc5tja> but I'm looking at solving the root of the problem proper.
12:46:05 <kc5tja> Spam not only needs to be expensive, it needs to be HARD.
12:46:10 <kc5tja> On a technological level.
12:46:10 <Herkamire> the thing I really like is that the sender has no way of knowing that your email address is valid unless you download the message.
12:46:44 <kc5tja> Sure they will.
12:46:46 <Herkamire> and that's a choice you can make in your email client
12:47:02 <Herkamire> how?
12:47:17 <kc5tja> A legit ISP is not going to spend oodles of cash for harddrive space to satisfy their users.
12:47:38 <kc5tja> So, they'll want their mail client to *delete* messages to illegal addresses ASAP.
12:47:45 <kc5tja> Typical 5-day time-out should work fine.
12:48:02 <kc5tja> That will tend to let more space be available for new spam messages, addressed to new people.
12:48:10 <Herkamire> it's important that the sending ISP has no way of knowing if the recipient is a valid address
12:48:59 <Herkamire> I'm sure ISPs would like to delete outgoing messages as soon as they can, but to serve their customer they'll have to leave them there for a while.
12:49:15 <Herkamire> ISPs providing POP email accounts allow people to leave messages on the server
12:49:33 <Herkamire> and more and more are providing webmail which encourages people to leave a lot of messages on the server.
12:50:25 <kc5tja> But the customer is paying for that space.
12:50:34 <kc5tja> Well, I kinda see what you're getting at.
12:50:39 <Herkamire> I expect the default would be that the sending ISP would delete messages after they had been downloaded by all recipients
12:51:08 <kc5tja> Here's the other issue: one recipient, one copy of the message.  Period.
12:51:09 <Herkamire> part of the problem with spam is that spammers know that their e-mails are getting to you
12:51:27 <kc5tja> So even if I comma-deliminate a list of recipients, the ISP must create three separate copies of the message.
12:51:31 <Herkamire> you can have as many recipients of a message as you want.
12:51:38 <kc5tja> Bad.
12:51:40 <Herkamire> why?
12:52:01 <kc5tja> Because of those 200 spams I got, the other half were addressed to the entire userbase of arrl.net on a *single* cc: line.
12:52:20 <Herkamire> I realize that this makes it easier on spammers, but it is required for large mailing lists
12:52:22 <kc5tja> One message sent to THOUSANDS of different users.
12:52:48 <Herkamire> besides you can't enforce making them have copies
12:53:13 <kc5tja> Precisely; that's why I say, IM2000 doesn't solve the spam problem.
12:53:27 <kc5tja> I like IM2000, and I think it's the right foundation to build my own stuff on.
12:53:28 <Herkamire> ISPs could count the message against a user's quote 8 times when it's sent to 8 people, but this won't even slow down spammers who have their own server
12:54:00 <Herkamire> kc5tja: how can you stop spam without a blacklist?
12:54:52 <Herkamire> I don't think it's a solvable problem
12:54:55 <kc5tja> Authentication between sender and receiver.
12:55:12 <Herkamire> If I put my email address on my website, I'm going to get messages from people I don't know.
12:55:18 <Herkamire> some of them are going to be sollicitations
12:55:32 <kc5tja> Yep.
12:56:11 <Herkamire> IM2000 makes it easy to run a mailing list
12:56:26 <Herkamire> and harder to spam
12:56:37 <kc5tja> I don't think it makes it any harder to spam.
12:56:54 <kc5tja> If anything it opens up new business opportunities for ISPs catering to spammers.
12:57:07 <Herkamire> 1) it's MUCH easier to block spam from a particular sender or sending machine
12:57:21 <kc5tja> I disagree.
12:57:33 <kc5tja> It's true that it won't consume nearly as much bandwidth.
12:57:56 <kc5tja> But I don't think it'll be any easier to actually block.
12:58:27 <Herkamire> 2) spammers can't tell that you recived their messages if you don't download them (this makes the list of email addresses that spammers buy/sell less valuable/credible)
12:58:59 <Herkamire> and makes it so that spammers don't know how long to leave their messages up, because they can't tell when everybody's gotten it.
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12:59:44 <Herkamire> IM2000 makes messages eisier to block because you can simply tell your email client and/or recieving ISP to ignore notifications from a certain user or server
13:01:12 <kc5tja> I would add to that the ability for a receiving ISP to cross-verify with the sending ISP to make sure that said user actually sent the message.
13:01:49 <kc5tja> Like I said, "I'm a spammer now," because someone hijacked my Yahoo! Mail identity (and my arrl.net identity) and sent spam with my name in both the Sender and Reply-To fields.
13:02:14 <Herkamire> that is inherent in the system
13:02:17 <kc5tja> IM2000 must take steps to prevent this from ever occuring, even with forged headers.
13:02:58 <kc5tja> This is another aspect of authentication that I'm talking about.
13:02:59 <Herkamire> no from header. just the notification
13:03:19 <Herkamire> you can't forge the sending server or sending user, because you use them to retrieve the message
13:03:26 <kc5tja> There needs to exist some means of identifying a user who sent the message
13:03:30 <Herkamire> unless you can hack into the DNS system
13:04:03 <kc5tja> What I'm saying is, I don't even want the notification to get through if it's invalid.
13:04:09 <Herkamire> the notification could be:   http://herkamire.com/jason/HD78D3TO3CG3ONCH18734
13:05:46 <Herkamire> kc5tja: invalid in what respect?
13:06:24 <kc5tja> If I receive a notification from the URL you gave above, and I click on the line to retrieve the message, and I get "User Jason on Herkamire.com does not have, or did not send, the message indicated" message, then the notification is invalid.
13:06:49 <Herkamire> ok.
13:06:49 <kc5tja> It should never have been displayed in the first place -- the message never exists.
13:06:52 <kc5tja> existed
13:06:56 <Herkamire> and you want the recieving ISP to varify that?
13:07:01 <kc5tja> Absolutely.
13:07:16 <kc5tja> Rule #1: Make it technologically hard for spammers to spam.
13:07:26 <kc5tja> They only control their sending server.
13:07:27 <Herkamire> i see no point in this
13:07:31 <kc5tja> They have NO control over the recipient's.
13:07:52 <Herkamire> why would spammers (or anyone) send a notification when there's no email there?
13:08:01 <kc5tja> uhhh...faking headers?
13:08:08 <Herkamire> what headers??
13:08:13 * kc5tja sighs
13:08:14 <kc5tja> I giveup
13:08:28 <Herkamire> if you sent this notification:  http://herkamire.com/jason/HD78D3TO3CG3ONCH18734
13:08:46 <Herkamire> all you could do is trick someone into thinking that I sent them a message and then deleted it or something
13:08:59 <Herkamire> it would not do you any good. I don't see why anybody would do that.
13:09:14 <Herkamire> therefor I don't think we need protection against it.
13:09:16 <kc5tja> But that's exactly!!!!! what a spammer would like to do!
13:09:18 <kc5tja> ANNOY people!
13:09:27 <Herkamire> spammers are trying to make money
13:09:32 <kc5tja> I have NO IDEA what "spam" I "sent" to other people.
13:09:36 <kc5tja> But I'm getting the backlash on it!
13:09:47 <kc5tja> No, a spammer need not make money or even try to.
13:09:54 <kc5tja> SPAM: Single Post Across Many -- that's it.
13:10:10 <kc5tja> It has nothing to do with UCEs except that most UCEs are sent as SPAM.
13:10:49 <Herkamire> I didn't realize you were trying to protect against people who's only intent is to be irritating.
13:11:05 <kc5tja> I was a victim of it only a few days ago.
13:11:18 <kc5tja> I'm still sifting through rather venomous responses from people on a wide variety of domains.
13:11:47 <kc5tja> Another thing: what is sent in the notification?
13:11:55 <Herkamire> the problem with people being mad at you is that you can really spoof a sender in the current system.
13:11:56 <kc5tja> It has to identify who sent the message and at least the subject.
13:12:21 <kc5tja> Yes, and since notifications are UDP packets, it'd be trivial to fake one of those too!
13:12:30 <kc5tja> Heck, even I can do it, and I don't even need root privileges!
13:13:01 <Herkamire> I'm don't think the subject should be in it. I haven't made up my mind yet though.
13:13:02 <kc5tja> Cross-checks are vitally important.
13:13:13 <kc5tja> Then how do I know whether or not to download a message?
13:13:20 <Herkamire> problem is if the notification can have text in it, then people will just use them as spam.
13:13:22 <kc5tja> I can't do it on sender alone.
13:13:54 <Herkamire> not sure.
13:14:05 <Herkamire> what sort of info would you like to know before you recieve the email?
13:14:22 <Herkamire> blacklists will be happy just knowing the sending server
13:14:23 <kc5tja> Who sent it, what it's about, and when it was sent.
13:14:44 <Herkamire> personal blacklists (ignore list) would like to know the sending user.
13:14:44 <kc5tja> Precisely why blacklists are insufficient.
13:15:10 <kc5tja> I would much rather run a Bayesian filter on the sender's identity and subject heading -- it's 100% more reliable.
13:15:17 <kc5tja> Spammers are *CONSTANTLY* changing their user identities anyway.
13:16:48 <Herkamire> I'd prefer the subject was not part of the notification.
13:17:16 <kc5tja> Either way, the user is going to be needing a subject at some point.
13:17:18 <kc5tja> So,
13:17:24 <Herkamire> your bayesian filter could be on the whole content after you download the message. if it's rejected, then it sets your client to start rejecting notifications from that source.
13:17:29 <kc5tja> OK, let's assume the notification is just, "I have mail for you at this server."
13:17:36 <Herkamire> and user
13:17:46 <kc5tja> I don't want to download the content I don't want to read in the first place.
13:17:48 <kc5tja> That's the whole point.
13:18:07 <kc5tja> Otherwise, there is ZERO technological advantage to fighting spam over what we already have.
13:18:12 <Herkamire> how well does your filter thing work if it's just on the subject??
13:18:13 <kc5tja> And that means ZERO advantage to switching over.
13:18:30 <kc5tja> When I get subjects like, "viagra now!  xghddhj jc3293"
13:18:33 <Herkamire> many spammers send out stuff with innocent subjects
13:18:35 <kc5tja> it's amazingly effective.
13:18:44 <kc5tja> And lots of exclamation points.
13:18:49 <kc5tja> And on topics I *never* discuss.
13:18:55 <kc5tja> They're 100% effective for that.
13:19:12 <Herkamire> yeah, but if everybody filtered on the subject, then they would have subjects like "I'm back"
13:20:13 <kc5tja> Each person's baysian filter learns its own vocabulary for what is or is not spam.
13:20:23 <kc5tja> Depending on whether the user clicks "delete msg" or "delete spam".
13:20:42 <Herkamire> coool
13:20:47 <Herkamire> how hard is that to implement?
13:20:53 <kc5tja> Hence, a person who gets a LOT of "I'm back" subjects or message content will probably not see that as spam.
13:21:03 <Herkamire> it's just some sort of general pattern recognition?
13:21:04 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I have no idea, but it can't possibly be that hard.
13:21:33 <Herkamire> kc5tja: do you think that the filtering can/should be just on the subject? or would it be better on the whole message?
13:21:33 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It works by taking the content of a message (of course, if you download the whole mail, it'd include the headers AND the body), and fragmenting it into individual words.
13:22:03 <kc5tja> Then it cross-references each word with its databases to determine the probability of each individual word likely being indicative of spam.
13:22:14 <Herkamire> nifty
13:22:39 <kc5tja> When it's finished, it takes the most interesting 15 words (or so; you can adjust it, I'm sure), and combines their probabilities according to Bayes' rule.
13:22:46 <kc5tja> (hence the name, Baysian filter)
13:22:55 <kc5tja> The result is a probability of it being a spam or not.
13:23:01 <kc5tja> 90% or higher is, "Yes, it's a spam."
13:23:08 <kc5tja> Anything else is, "Not likely."
13:24:04 <kc5tja> There's a rather extensive set of articles on it on the Paul Graham website.
13:26:28 <Herkamire> cool
13:27:58 <Herkamire> I would like that, but only for senders not in my address book, and I would like it to automatically reject any future messages from a sender of a spam
13:28:51 <kc5tja> Yes, Bayesian is often used with both white and blacklists.
13:29:02 <kc5tja> All three need to be used to get 100% certainty for your mail.
13:30:43 <Herkamire> LOL I just got a spam on the im2000 list
13:31:14 <Herkamire> it's still not 100% though. close enough... but it still makes me nervous
13:31:19 <Herkamire> it's optional though.
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15:55:11 <I440r> wb :)
15:55:18 <kc5tja> re
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16:54:57 <rk> I440r: 'lo
16:55:20 <rk> I440r: can you help me with something?
16:58:08 <uuter> hi
16:59:18 <I440r> hi
16:59:24 <rk> hello :)
16:59:25 <I440r> i can try
16:59:33 <rk> I440r: cool
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18:00:19 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
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18:00:26 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!! :)
18:00:38 <kc5tja> Howdy
18:00:47 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
18:02:15 * kc5tja is tired.
18:02:24 <kc5tja> But, I also want to go for a ride on my bike too.
18:02:25 <I440r> tbw!
18:02:33 <I440r> i might have an interview tomorrow
18:02:37 <I440r> forth coding job too :)
18:02:43 <TheBlueWizard> cool! :)
18:04:36 <kc5tja> I440r: Do they take telecommuters?
18:06:40 <I440r> lol i dunno :)
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18:16:32 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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19:33:10 <kc5tja> Back
19:34:07 <gilbertdeb> http://www.sgi.com/grafica/future/futnotes.html
19:34:12 <gilbertdeb> seen that?
19:37:12 <uuter> thats cool
19:38:24 <gilbertdeb> * I've got this floor wax that's also a GREAT dessert topping!! 
19:40:26 <kc5tja> I resent their discussion about the sports car.
19:40:28 <kc5tja> It's wholesale inadequate.
19:40:39 <gilbertdeb> hehehe
19:40:56 <kc5tja> A sports car is the epitome of what they're looking to promote: a purpose-built, non-repurposable, high-performance, no-nonsense vehicle.
19:41:30 <kc5tja> And for the record, yes, there actually are plenty of RX-7s that have ball hitches on them, and they DO tow other things.
19:41:33 <gilbertdeb> but I think that section was referring to nay-sayers mostly.
19:41:47 <kc5tja> That whole page is about nay-saying.
19:41:53 <gilbertdeb> hehehe
19:42:15 <kc5tja> I reject futurist programming on the basis that it's every bit as close-minded as the attitudes they're fighting against.
19:42:50 <gilbertdeb> if they were open minded, they mightn't have such a problem with the autre attitudes ;)
19:43:02 <kc5tja> autre?
19:43:06 * kc5tja doesn't speak French.
19:43:18 <gilbertdeb> autre?
19:43:18 <uuter> autre = other
19:43:20 <gilbertdeb> I meant other.
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19:46:06 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: I like the futnotes.html link you posted
19:46:37 <kc5tja> HAH!  Those two words are about as far apart from each other on the keyboard as I can imagine, both QWERTY and Dvorak.  :D
19:47:02 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja what do you mean?
19:47:03 <kc5tja> At any rate, I am highly sympathetic with the rationale behind the futurism movement.
19:47:18 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire I liked the comparisons best of all.
19:47:21 <kc5tja> au == ar in Dvorak layout (IIRC).
19:47:50 <kc5tja> but the futurism notes has too many intra-dogmatic views.
19:48:08 <Herkamire> the page is a bit childish
19:48:26 <kc5tja> Yes, but it is fun to read.  Just as long as the reader can separate the wheat from the chaff.
19:48:34 <gilbertdeb> It almost reads like a parody.
19:48:41 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I agree :)
19:48:55 <Herkamire> I also thought the sports car analogy was a bit backwards.
19:49:32 <Herkamire> they advocate software that just simply does what you want, and then their analogy is complaining that your car doesn't do all these things that most people never do.
19:49:45 <Herkamire> I've never wanted to tow something behind my car or take hogs anywhere :)
19:50:08 <Herkamire> and what was that bit about auto generated code??
19:50:15 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire I don't think They're complaining so much as others you show off your sports car to deflate your new found enthusiasm with such comments.
19:50:24 * kc5tja can't tell you how many SUVs I saw today, all with spit-shined finish, *black* tires, et. al. 
19:50:32 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire reflexive code.
19:50:39 <kc5tja> These SUVs, which no doubt get 6MPG, have never, ever ONCE seen off-roading.  Ever.
19:50:50 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja and how many of those were single occupancy?
19:51:08 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: The overwhelming majority, and, they were all female.  Every one.
19:51:21 <gilbertdeb> it is incredible!
19:51:27 <gilbertdeb> were they really smallish in stature as well?
19:51:34 <kc5tja> No.
19:51:59 <gilbertdeb> I've noticed (with some great bias) that the larger the vehicle, the smaller the occupant.
19:52:00 <kc5tja> Cadillac monstrosities, Toyota behemoths, and one Lincoln Navigator.
19:52:09 <gilbertdeb> it could be that the size made them look that much smaller.
19:52:28 <kc5tja> Yes, but I don't care how big or small they look.
19:52:33 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
19:52:45 <kc5tja> What i care about is that it is a grandios waste of fuel and air, air which *I* happen to be breathing, thank you very much.
19:52:49 <gilbertdeb> if they were men, i'd say they were compensating for something, but i can't.
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19:52:53 * kc5tja really wants to build his own HPV.
19:53:05 <gilbertdeb> a gossamer albatross.
19:53:07 <gilbertdeb> a bicycle.
19:53:18 <kc5tja> If they were men, they'd be plastered with mud, because men go 'froading.
19:53:25 <gilbertdeb> hahah.
19:53:32 <gilbertdeb> I. doubt it.
19:53:50 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: No, I'm looking to build a recumbent bicycle equipped with a Constantinesco torque converter as a CVT.
19:53:59 <gilbertdeb> cvt?
19:54:09 <gilbertdeb> that'd be convertible velocity tires?
19:54:10 <gilbertdeb> right?
19:54:14 <kc5tja> Care to fly on over here and take a trip in the desert sometime?
19:54:30 <gilbertdeb> by foot???
19:54:39 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: By vehicle.
19:54:55 <kc5tja> You are aware that southern California is one big desert, right?
19:54:58 <gilbertdeb> ermm no, not with these 'froaders.
19:55:02 <gilbertdeb> ah yes i know.
19:55:14 <kc5tja> re: cvt you tell me.
19:55:15 <gilbertdeb> I'd much rather do such a trip with a real 4x4 thank you.
19:55:31 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: The larger SUVs are 4x4s.
19:55:36 <gilbertdeb> eg?
19:55:39 <kc5tja> That's one of the reasons why they suck gas.
19:55:52 <gilbertdeb> I'm talking land rover 110 types.
19:56:19 <kc5tja> Dude, we don't have rivers to plow through.  An SUV is plenty sufficient out here.
19:56:28 <gilbertdeb> hehe.
19:56:29 <kc5tja> As are pick-up trucks.
19:56:32 <gilbertdeb> desert. right.
19:56:53 <gilbertdeb> do you have a recumbent bike?
19:57:20 <kc5tja> No.  I wish I did though.  I can't afford a commercially made one.  Moreover, nobody would equip one with a CVT on it anyway.
19:57:48 <gilbertdeb> heh. I dunno what a cvt is.
19:57:59 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I've explained it to you like three times already.  :)
19:58:05 <kc5tja> Continuously Variable Transmission
19:58:10 <gilbertdeb> ah yes!
19:58:16 <gilbertdeb> you used it in a car context.
19:58:24 <gilbertdeb> didn't think it would apply to bicycles.
19:58:35 <kc5tja> Bikes have transmissions too.
19:58:49 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what's Constantinesco tork converter? where can I read about it?
19:58:53 <kc5tja> Something needs to convert your 60RPM pedaling into 240RPM tire movement.  :)
19:59:12 <kc5tja> Herkamire: VERY little is published about it.  But there are some patents on it that are hard to find.
19:59:21 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I have a URL of one page which I think you'll appreciate though.
19:59:42 <kc5tja> Herkamire: http://fluid.power.net/fpn/const/const005.html
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20:00:07 <kc5tja> I've verified that the basic principles of its operation do, in fact, work.
20:00:22 <gilbertdeb> I"m not the only here who thinks a bicycle is an elegant machine, right?
20:00:30 <gilbertdeb> only one*
20:00:35 <kc5tja> And it's just the ticket for a bike CVT because it inherently operates without computer or outside mechanical intervention.
20:00:49 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I think a bike is plenty elegant.
20:00:58 <kc5tja> I also think a bike with a CVT is also plenty elegant.
20:01:20 <Herkamire> <grin> "Fig. 28  Constantinesco automatic car being led by string attached to throttle lever"
20:01:28 <gilbertdeb> yeah, what does that mean?
20:01:33 <kc5tja> Especially when you consider that using sprockets and derailers are death to momentum while trying to change gears while going up a steep hill.
20:01:37 <gilbertdeb> it was THAT easy to move?
20:02:23 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: throttle's aren't generally that hard to push
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20:02:48 <gilbertdeb> ah okay.
20:02:54 <gilbertdeb> I know next to 0 about cars.
20:03:11 <kc5tja> That demonstration is significant because it demonstrates the perfect automaticity of the transmission.
20:03:23 <kc5tja> You just can't do that with a modern car -- not without computer control over the transmission.
20:03:26 <Herkamire> "On reaching a hill it would be noticed that the car would tend to slow down,[...]"
20:03:33 <kc5tja> Herkamire: As all cars do.
20:03:36 <gilbertdeb> but why isn't it used more? is it inneficient in some way?
20:03:53 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: General Motors bought the rights to produce them, then sat on it.
20:04:04 * gilbertdeb shakes a fist.
20:04:07 <kc5tja> I do not believe it is because they are inefficient.
20:04:14 <Herkamire> kc5tja: can you give it away and answer this: how much drag is introduced by this thing?
20:04:17 <kc5tja> In fact, of all the CVTs, they are the most efficient I've seen.
20:04:53 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Next to none -- a chain would have more drag than that thing.
20:05:03 <kc5tja> A chain has more moving parts!
20:05:49 <kc5tja> The pendulum bob is designed to sink as much of the engine's power at idle as possible, but no more.
20:06:27 <kc5tja> As RPMs increase, it takes progressively more and more energy to move the bob's mass (double engine RPM == 4x energy input to the bob).
20:07:09 <kc5tja> This excess energy is converted (due to momentum of the mass) to torque on the output shaft very efficiently.
20:07:12 <kc5tja> It's just a lever.
20:07:42 <kc5tja> If there are losses, it will be through flexure of the pendulum arm during higher RPMs.
20:08:07 <kc5tja> but those can be controlled; just use more arms and lighter masses per arm.  This also has the benefit of distributing the torque load across the arms.
20:10:58 <kc5tja> brb
20:14:24 <kc5tja> bak
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20:24:47 <Herkamire> kc5tja: that's realllly cool
20:24:59 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire you speak engines too?
20:25:16 <Herkamire> looks like something you could easily build. except maybe the "mechanical valves"... I don't know how they work
20:25:27 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: no, I don't do engines. horribly things engines
20:25:37 <kc5tja> Herkamire: They're basically rachets optimized for use in that application.
20:25:59 * kc5tja was thinking of building a prototype using just regular socket sets in a jury-rigged contraption.
20:25:59 <kc5tja> :)
20:26:34 <uuter> how is your RX-7 on Rotor seals?
20:26:46 <Herkamire> you mean osing two "ratchet" socken wrenches??? hehe
20:26:47 <kc5tja> uuter: I don't understand your question.
20:26:53 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yup.  :)
20:27:03 <Herkamire> that's a great idea! LOL
20:27:14 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Just as a quick test for the concept.
20:27:23 <uuter> the seals at points of the rotor, to maintain the seal of the seperate chambers
20:27:47 <kc5tja> uuter: "apex seals."  But I still don't understand why you're asking.  :)
20:27:50 <uuter> one of the draw backs of rotary/wankle engines
20:27:59 <kc5tja> uuter: Which Mazda solved in the late 60s.
20:28:06 <kc5tja> And yes, I do mean solved.
20:28:07 <uuter> yeah?
20:28:09 <kc5tja> Yes.
20:28:10 <uuter> rad
20:28:17 <Herkamire> so those mechanical valves can be quite effecient I presume
20:28:27 <kc5tja> My 1st generation RX-7 still had its original engine when it died after 262,680 miles.
20:28:53 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I guess so.  I saw Constantinesco's patent for those "valves," and they've got a neat operating principle.
20:28:56 <uuter> it was leakage, or low compression that affected them as i understand
20:29:12 <kc5tja> uuter: Nope.
20:29:24 <kc5tja> uuter: What happened was with Wankel's OWN rotary engines.
20:29:34 <kc5tja> NSU made Wankels with inferior metallurgy.
20:29:54 <kc5tja> So all of NSU's cars had seals that prematurely died quite often.
20:29:56 <I440r__> oh yea - what car uses those these days ?
20:29:56 <I440r__> some japanese car
20:29:58 <kc5tja> The metal was too soft.
20:30:00 <I440r__> i forget
20:30:08 <kc5tja> I440r__: Mazda RX-7 and the RX-8.
20:30:22 <I440r__> thats the one
20:30:27 <kc5tja> The two.  :D
20:30:31 <I440r__> awesome design for an engine
20:30:35 <I440r__> lol oh yea
20:30:51 <kc5tja> And the Mazda Cosmo too.  I forgot about that one.
20:30:55 <kc5tja> The three.  :)
20:31:00 <kc5tja> Thought he Cosmo isn't imported to the USA>
20:31:45 <kc5tja> Mazda's seals, however, are exposed to an electron beam to ceramicize them.
20:31:58 <kc5tja> So the apex seals used in Mazda's engines are metal, but they behave like ceramic seals.
20:32:03 <Herkamire> kc5tja:  this is a great article :)
20:32:15 <kc5tja> Also, NSU's seals oscillated at resonant frequencies which etched periodic grooves into the rotor housings.
20:32:26 <kc5tja> That only cause additional wear on the seals.
20:32:51 <kc5tja> Mazda solved this by (a) splitting the seal into two or three pieces, and (b) drilling holes in the seals to make sure they don't oscillate at any one resonant frequency.
20:33:16 <kc5tja> The Mazda 12A engine has a reputation for being unbreakable.
20:34:03 * kc5tja has a 13B in his car now.  Almost as good as far as reliability is concerned.
20:34:32 * kc5tja has overheated his 13B twice so far, because the overflow tank hose fell off the engine while driving on the freeway, and I lost coolant.
20:34:44 <kc5tja> The engine never blinked.
20:34:48 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yeah, I thought so too.  :)
20:35:04 <kc5tja> The only thing that happened was the engine lost some amount of power.
20:35:31 <kc5tja> And the 13B RENESIS is another unbreakable engine -- they fixed a lot of shortcuts they took with the later generation 13Bs like the 13B-RE and 13B-REW.
20:36:44 * kc5tja has test-driven the RX-8 -- OMG it almost made me wet my pants.
20:36:54 <kc5tja> 9500RPM redline, transmission-limited.
20:37:02 <kc5tja> The engine itself can safely handle 10500 RPM.
20:38:02 <kc5tja> Heh, uncork that engine and put new headers on it, remove the pre-cats, and I bet you can easily get 310HP out of it without turbocharging.
20:41:19 <Herkamire> I've never seen the word "spragged" before. :) cool word :)
20:42:05 <kc5tja> Sprag clutches are what they use in rear bike wheels -- the things that go "click click click click" when you move forward on your bike without pedaling are the sprags.  :)
20:42:16 <kc5tja> I *think*.
20:42:25 <kc5tja> I could be wrong.  Maybe I'm thinking of a Pawl clutch.
20:42:29 * kc5tja would have to verify.
20:44:26 <kc5tja> I'm wrong.  The clutch used in the rear bike wheel is in fact a Pawl clutch.
20:44:42 <kc5tja> A Sprag clutch is silent.
20:49:58 <Herkamire> sprag  n 1: a chock or bar wedged under a wheel or between the spokes to prevent a vehicle from rolling down an incline.
20:50:16 <Herkamire> :)
20:50:36 <gilbertdeb> hahah
20:50:48 <gilbertdeb> <kc5tja> A Sprag clutch _is_ silent?
20:52:33 <kc5tja> Yes
20:52:45 <kc5tja> Sprag clutches are what's used in automobile automatic transmissions.
20:52:54 <kc5tja> You don't hear them click-click-click-clicking down the road, now do you?
20:52:55 <kc5tja> :)
20:53:04 <kc5tja> (and if you do, you have bigger things to worry about!)
21:04:00 <Herkamire> automatic transmissions are sorta like a liquid filled chamber with one side the engine shaft with fins spinning the liquid around, and the shaft that powers the weals in the other half with fins being pushed by the liquid
21:04:05 <Herkamire> right?
21:04:27 <uuter> yeah
21:04:35 <uuter> impellers i suppose
21:04:43 <kc5tja> Yes
21:04:50 <kc5tja> That is the transmission's torque converter.
21:04:56 <Herkamire> good. just making sure I have that right
21:04:59 <kc5tja> Unlike the constantinesco torque converter, it is VERY lossy.
21:05:12 <Herkamire> and automatics still have to shift
21:05:20 <kc5tja> The idea is a fast-spinning engine will create a lot of fluid pressure, which in turn creates a high torque on a slow-moving turbine.
21:05:23 <Herkamire> the don't get as much range as the constantinesco
21:05:34 <kc5tja> Right, and it has another problem: it gets hot.  :)
21:05:57 <kc5tja> In my '7, my transmission has its own radiator ports.  :)
21:05:58 <Herkamire> the constantinesco thing can haul something up a hill, and go 40MPH
21:06:05 * kc5tja nods
21:06:18 <Herkamire> that's plenty for a bike :)
21:06:22 <kc5tja> Mine can too, but I doubt with a 10HP engine.  :)
21:06:37 <kc5tja> Of course.
21:06:55 <Herkamire> you're what? your car can haul something up a hill and go 40MPH?
21:07:05 <kc5tja> Yes.  :)
21:07:12 <Herkamire> hehe :)
21:07:16 <Herkamire> in the same gear?
21:07:24 <kc5tja> My car weighs 2815 pounds fully loaded, but it also has a 150HP engine in it too.
21:07:33 <kc5tja> Once it finds its gear, yes.
21:07:42 <kc5tja> Usually 3rd gear.
21:07:45 <Herkamire> you were saying that you w anted a human powered recumbent bike with a constantinesco cvt right?
21:07:48 <kc5tja> 4th gear == overdrive
21:07:52 <kc5tja> Yes
21:08:08 <Herkamire> sweet
21:08:12 <Herkamire> covered?
21:08:16 <kc5tja> I put too much power on the bike's chain to derail properly.
21:08:22 <kc5tja> I don't need it faired.
21:08:34 <kc5tja> "fairing" is the term for covering in the biking industry.
21:08:40 <Herkamire> if you hake it shaped (more or less) like a fish, it will go quite fast :)
21:08:41 <kc5tja> "fully faired" is even better yet
21:08:51 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yup.
21:08:57 <kc5tja> But even unfaired, a recumbent can easily hit 40 to 50MPH.
21:08:59 <kc5tja> Easily.
21:09:11 <Herkamire> on level ground?
21:09:16 * kc5tja gets 20MPH (estimated) on his upright.
21:09:18 <Herkamire> that doesn't sound easy to me
21:09:18 * kc5tja nods
21:09:25 <Herkamire> although I haven't ridden recumbants much
21:09:38 <kc5tja> Well, you do need to be in decent shape.
21:09:45 <kc5tja> But riding a lot will get you in shape fairly quickly.
21:10:19 <kc5tja> But the thing with recumbents is all the power of your legs to directly to the pedals; remember you have a back rest to brace yourself against.  :)
21:10:37 <kc5tja> With an upright, no matter how much you push, at least a portion of it goes into pushing you off your seat.
21:10:51 <Herkamire> whaaat?
21:10:53 <kc5tja> Hence, standing while riding an upright will deliver more power.
21:11:19 <kc5tja> BUT, standing is also like a land-sail too.  In a headwind, I don't care how much power you deliver while standing on the pedals, you aren't going to go fast.  :)
21:11:23 <Herkamire> the power that lifts you off your seat goes directly onto the pedal
21:11:44 <kc5tja> Equal and opposite forces.
21:11:52 <kc5tja> If the pedal doesn't want to move, that force goes into you instead.
21:11:54 <Herkamire> I want myne to be at least a little faired
21:12:29 <kc5tja> With a recumbent, the force has no choice: the force hits the pedal, reacts back into you, you into the back-rest, and then back into the pedal.
21:12:42 <kc5tja> It really is a substantially more efficient position to ride a bike in.
21:12:56 * kc5tja noticed right away that it was a *lot* easier going up a hill in a recumbent than on his upright.
21:13:33 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja is a recumbent just as easy to ride?
21:14:22 --- join: SDO (~beos@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
21:14:49 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: In the sense that once you learn you don't forget?  Yes.
21:14:51 <Herkamire> I like recumbants, even though I've never had a chance to ride one the right size for me.
21:15:08 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: But your balance on a recumbent is slightly different, and due to the longer wheel base, handling is very different too.
21:15:19 <gilbertdeb> I see.
21:15:23 <gilbertdeb> never ridden one.
21:15:24 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: So you do need to relearn how to ride before you really get proficient with them.
21:15:28 <gilbertdeb> so expensive!
21:15:37 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Yes, that's why I want to build my own.
21:15:45 <kc5tja> Building one is actually a LOT cheaper than purchasing one.
21:16:20 <Herkamire> kc5tja: have you seen this? http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/backToBack/
21:17:37 <SDO> anyone here play guitar.
21:17:51 <SDO> blues in particular, electric or accoustic
21:19:37 <kc5tja> SDO: I ... um ... HAVE a guitar.  Does that count?  :D
21:19:53 <kc5tja> SDO: (IOW, if I practiced a song for long enough, I could pretend that I know how to play it...)
21:20:49 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Just a second.
21:23:22 <SDO> LOL, kc5tja, same for me.
21:23:42 <SDO> however, I just got for review, 3 sets of the CD courseware for guitar (blues in particular) from TrueFire.com
21:23:54 <SDO> I'm kinda impressed by the stuff, and wouldn't mind finding someone that could co-review it with me.
21:24:10 <SDO> The courseware is about 30 hours long, and about 1 hour per day is requested of the directions.
21:24:59 <SDO> I'm figuring the person and I could also cooperate and do a online session or two, switching recordings for lead and rhythm.  It would be kinda fun, and about 30 hours total over a 30-60 day period.
21:25:08 <SDO> I'm honestly not going to have time every single day.
21:25:49 <SDO> Publication of review is to be online and in print, some guitar magazines and also likely a mac magazine or PC since the reaking software they provide (outside the lessons which are PDF and mp3 files) runs on wintel too.
21:28:54 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That's too funny.
21:28:55 <kc5tja> :)
21:29:46 <kc5tja> SDO: Interesting.
21:30:13 <kc5tja> SDO: I'm a bit cramped for time myself.  I'm moving, and I need to restring my guitar.  I am tone deaf, though, so I have to find someone or something to help me with that.
21:30:41 <SDO> LOL
21:30:59 <SDO> crap, you sound kc5tja like you would be perfect for the project, tone deaf, moving with no time, and what about talent?
21:31:00 <SDO> LOL
21:31:11 <SDO> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_376025.html  guys, this one makes me really want to move to the moon.
21:31:20 <SDO> buddy just emailed that to me.
21:31:26 <kc5tja> SDO: I've been told I have a lot of potential talent though.  :)
21:32:13 <kc5tja> I periodically help one of my musician friends out with sound ideas and such.
21:32:15 <SDO> kc5tja, ok, I'll put the courseware up online and you are free to look thru it, enjoy it and get back to me on ideas on what you would like to do.
21:32:18 <SDO> Do you own a guitar?
21:32:24 * kc5tja is more into progressive rock than anything else, but blues are cool too.
21:32:26 <kc5tja> Yes
21:32:29 <SDO> cool.
21:32:38 <kc5tja> Jackson JS-1 electric.
21:32:40 <SDO> ok, let me move the files over to the webserver, and you can have a go at it.
21:32:45 <SDO> cool!
21:33:01 <I440r__> kc5 is an all round cool guy. martial arts, guitar and.... FORTH!!!!
21:33:03 <I440r__> heh
21:33:04 <kc5tja> Sucky guitar overall, but it does the job.  I'm sure I'd like it more if I could adjust the action right.
21:33:08 <SDO> do you have any way to even primatively record and post, or would you simply like to go thru the materials and post back to me about your expeirences.
21:33:13 <kc5tja> I440r__: And rotary-engine car.  :D
21:33:24 <I440r__> oh :)
21:33:27 <I440r__> i missed one :)
21:33:32 <kc5tja> SDO: I'd have to finish moving before I could answer that.
21:33:43 <kc5tja> SDO: I might be able to use my friend's recording gear.
21:34:01 <SDO> even a simple microphone would work, the kind on top of a monitor may due.
21:34:05 <kc5tja> SDO: My biggest problem is rhythm.  In short: I lack it.  :D
21:34:25 <kc5tja> SDO: It sounds like total shit though.  You won't be able to hear half of what I'm trying to play with it.
21:34:36 <I440r__> kc5 thats MY problem 
21:34:36 <I440r__> you go get your own.
21:34:36 <gilbertdeb> pish posh kc5tja: turn on mtv and observe the dancers with the massive butts ;)
21:34:39 <I440r__> dammit :/
21:34:50 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: HAH!  No need to.
21:35:05 <gilbertdeb> you'll get rhythm very quickly I think.
21:35:25 <kc5tja> SDO: I'd enjoy a potential opportunity to cooperatively work on a song though.  Just don't ask me to do vocals.  I hate singing, and I sound like shit.
21:35:47 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Just takes practice.  But I haven't done it for 25 years like my friend has.
21:35:56 <kc5tja> Plus it is harder to pick up when you're older.
21:36:00 <SDO> kc5tja, this is just an exercise on cooperative music for me, as well as getting someone else to try out the lesson materials from this company that forwarded me for review the lessons.
21:36:06 <kc5tja> He started playing music about the same time I started doing assembly language programming.
21:36:20 <gilbertdeb> 25 YEARS? to get rhythm?
21:36:23 <gilbertdeb> I"m done for.
21:36:26 <gilbertdeb> I'll never get it.
21:36:29 <SDO> I write up a little blurp on it, post it to http://sdoreviews.dyndns.org and we can get with it then.
21:36:31 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Dude, he's a pro musician.
21:37:11 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: He does jazz (bosa nova, straight-up, bebop, etc), rock (progressive, hard, heavy-metal, etc), salsa and other latino forms, and more.
21:37:25 <gilbertdeb> jazz?
21:37:27 <gilbertdeb> very cool.
21:37:30 <kc5tja> yeah
21:37:33 * kc5tja loves Jazz.
21:37:51 <kc5tja> But I'm more a progressive rock kind of guy.  Progressive rock is like jazz and rock together.  Improvised rock is bad ass when it's done GOOD.
21:38:02 <kc5tja> King Crimson comes right to mind... :D
21:38:04 * I440r__ doesnt like jazz much - im a blues/classical purist :)
21:38:07 <I440r__> but then again...
21:38:13 <I440r__> jngoo rox
21:38:21 <I440r__> so does george benson
21:38:59 <gilbertdeb> I like the bluesy classic rock pieces.
21:39:07 <gilbertdeb> but I absosmurfly love jazz.
21:39:10 <kc5tja> They're all good.  It just depends on what mood I'm in.
21:39:12 <gilbertdeb> the old ones at least ...
21:39:21 <kc5tja> Bebop is my favorite.
21:39:36 <kc5tja> Shelley Mann is great.  Charlie Parker is awesome.  Etc.
21:39:41 <gilbertdeb> anything by coltrane, dizzy, miles ...
21:39:43 <SDO> I love jazz too, traditional big band, 20s to the 50s
21:39:45 <gilbertdeb> monk.
21:39:48 <I440r__> i dont like modern jazz
21:39:51 <gilbertdeb> I don't understand parker at all!
21:39:55 <kc5tja> I440r__: Modern jazz isn't jazz.
21:39:58 <gilbertdeb> I440r__ it sux0rs
21:40:02 <I440r__> bing, blonlk... dang dang.. bonk - blah blah - bink repeat
21:40:04 <kc5tja> Seriously
21:40:05 <I440r__> no rythm
21:40:07 <I440r__> no melody
21:40:09 <gilbertdeb> hahah
21:40:10 <kc5tja> Modern "Jazz" is elevator music.
21:40:16 <SDO> free form improv is nice.
21:40:18 <kc5tja> Real jazz is still underground, like it was in the 30s.
21:40:23 <I440r__> its NOT music
21:40:25 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja that is being charitable, to say the least.
21:40:31 <I440r__> so is real blues
21:40:41 <SDO> the blues were lost in the 70s
21:41:01 <SDO> particularly with George Benson doing Jazz/Blues and then Robert Cray dilluting blues to the point of no return.
21:41:03 <kc5tja> I440r__: Elevator Music is a slang term for only the most putrid, virulent, tasteless shit.
21:41:13 <I440r__> not realy, thers quoite a boit in there :)
21:41:18 <I440r__> kc5 lol yea :)
21:41:21 <I440r__> ok you win that one :)
21:41:37 <kc5tja> Yo yo yo, Kenny G, yo!!
21:41:41 * kc5tja laughs at that one.
21:41:46 <gilbertdeb> heh? 
21:41:46 <SDO> do any of you guys listen to Henry Kaise.r
21:41:49 <SDO> Fred Frith
21:41:53 <SDO> so forht.
21:41:53 <kc5tja> Nope.
21:41:57 <gilbertdeb> sd0 no.
21:41:58 <I440r__> paganini ?
21:42:01 <gilbertdeb> yes.
21:42:03 <I440r__> :)
21:42:05 <kc5tja> I'm relatively ignorant of good musicians.
21:42:12 <gilbertdeb> I'm a big Schubert fan as well.
21:42:16 <gilbertdeb> especially his lieder.
21:42:22 <gilbertdeb> and chopin, and satie too.
21:42:28 <gilbertdeb> and rachmaninov.
21:42:41 <gilbertdeb> and brahms.
21:42:46 <gilbertdeb> but I'm normal.
21:42:47 <I440r__> pachelbel is good too
21:42:58 <I440r__> rachmaninov is blah
21:43:12 <I440r__> procoviev or how ever you spell it is good :)
21:43:19 <gilbertdeb> prokofiev.
21:43:28 <I440r__> specially his romeo and juliet, dance of the knights
21:43:31 <gilbertdeb> there isn't that much I like of his stuff.
21:43:32 <I440r__> thats him
21:43:37 <gilbertdeb> yeah, I know that one.
21:43:45 <gilbertdeb> I440r__ do you like requiems?
21:43:49 <gilbertdeb> not to be morbid or anything.
21:43:50 * rk needs to do some nice things with php for the website.
21:43:52 <gilbertdeb> but they're GOOD!
21:43:58 <I440r__> prolly :)
21:44:04 <rk> I440r__: hey, your nick is ... weird ... why dont you change it???
21:44:16 <gilbertdeb> mozart, durufle, faure, brahms ...
21:44:17 <I440r__> rk Ibanez 440 radius
21:44:20 <I440r__> my guitar
21:44:25 <I440r__> all good
21:44:41 <rk> I440r__: that part i know, i was talking about doing /nick I440r because of the underscores
21:44:48 <I440r__> but paganini is my fave
21:45:02 <I440r__> specially his capriece #24
21:45:04 <I440r__> oh hehe
21:45:07 <I440r__> ahem
21:45:10 --- nick: I440r__ -> I440r
21:46:21 * rk wants a custom made with 2x humbucks :)
21:46:36 <rk> I440r: played one at the music shop the other day .... mmmmm!
21:46:47 <I440r> humbucks are ok for warm sound but not for a sharp sound
21:47:07 <rk> I440r: not necessarily true. depends on your setup.
21:47:11 <I440r> you can add a switch tho that will switch between hum-bucking (paralell) and inline
21:47:19 <rk> I440r: that would be nice
21:47:32 <I440r> i added one to one of my guitars once
21:47:39 <rk> I440r: you can have a really sharp sound with a humbick though, especially if you have a compressor :)
21:47:47 <rk> :)
21:47:56 <I440r> lol
21:47:59 * rk needs a better amp and a better guitar
21:48:04 <I440r> compressors are good for infinite sustain heh
21:48:09 <rk> I440r: hah
21:48:19 <I440r> but make the guitar difficult to control if your technique sux like mine :)
21:48:44 <rk> I440r: yeah, it takes getting used to.
21:48:58 <gilbertdeb> I440r I like paganini too. 
21:49:02 <gilbertdeb> but he didn't make that much at all.
21:49:08 <rk> I440r: newbs dont understand that part. my technique sucks too, but ive learned how to "play" the comp
21:49:24 <I440r> he was very feeble and weak. a sick man. died young :(
21:49:34 <I440r> but he was the greatest composer EVER to live
21:49:39 <gilbertdeb> niccolo paganini ?
21:49:41 * Herkamire spaces back in
21:49:49 <I440r> what you need to learn how to play are the silences
21:49:58 <I440r> anyone can play notes. but very few people can play the silences between them
21:50:00 <Herkamire> kc5tja: you think the tandem recumbent is funny? I want to ride on the back!
21:50:07 <I440r> gilbert yes
21:50:10 <gilbertdeb> I440r Monk does!
21:50:12 <I440r> thats the dood
21:50:15 <gilbertdeb> he plays silences well :)
21:50:23 <I440r> i can butcher his capriece #24 :)
21:50:29 <I440r> so does eric clapton
21:50:41 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Yes, I do.  Because it's something nobody has ever seen before, and that's just the crazy contraption to have a lot of fun with.
21:50:43 <I440r> "any song can be reduced to a single note if you play it with the right feeling"
21:50:52 <I440r>  -- eric clapton
21:50:55 <gilbertdeb> M
21:51:03 <gilbertdeb> No, that didn't do it I440r.
21:51:12 <rk> I440r: :)
21:51:26 <kc5tja> Clapton is a bit of a sell-out too.  I think he's lost his touch over the years.
21:51:29 <kc5tja> He's too wishy-washy now.
21:51:41 <I440r> ya
21:51:42 <TreyB> Old age does that for you :-)
21:51:48 <I440r> ya
21:51:50 <gilbertdeb> o/~ Thrill is gone o/~
21:52:43 <I440r> thats a bb king song :P
21:52:49 <I440r> he is another of my fave's :)
21:52:54 <SDO> Trey, some dude i"m emailing with about CueBe (the driver for the CueBe scanner) for BeOS was wearing a Be shirt...
21:52:56 <SDO> "Incidentally, I ran into a former Be employee here in Terre Haute, IN.  He
21:52:58 <SDO> LOL
21:53:41 <SDO> what a crappy way to go, from Be Inc. to Olive Garden :)
21:53:49 <gilbertdeb> I440r really nice tune.
21:53:53 <SDO> TreyB, you want me to get you an application just in case?  :)  j/k
21:53:55 * rk listens to Lynyrd Skynyrd --- The Needle and the Spoon
21:54:04 <I440r> yea!!
21:54:21 <I440r> i also like "beginning of the end" and "tonight im gona make you a star"
21:54:29 <I440r> realy cool :)
21:54:35 <rk> I440r: i also have gimme back my bullets, gimme three steps, staturday night 
21:54:38 <rk> I440r: :)
21:54:47 <rk> I440r: i also like red hot chili peppers
21:54:55 <rk> I440r: occasionally ozzy
21:55:01 <I440r> lol
21:55:05 <rk> I440r: stevie ray vaughn
21:55:08 <I440r> i think they suck now that their old guitarist quit
21:55:13 <I440r> srv is one of my fave
21:55:16 <rk> I440r: who?
21:55:17 <I440r> ozzy is just a dumbass
21:55:29 <I440r> srv - stevie ray vaughan
21:55:34 <I440r> i also like jimmy
21:55:36 <rk> I440r: yeah, i just like some of the songs (iron man, paranoid, crazy train)
21:55:47 <rk> I440r: jimmie is cool, but i like stevie better
21:55:52 <I440r> they lost it after under the bridge
21:55:58 <I440r> me too
21:56:08 <rk> I440r: ac/dc!!! 
21:56:10 <I440r> i dont like jimmi when he plays stevies songs, he cant play em right
21:56:15 <rk> heh
21:56:29 <I440r> and he isnt his brother. do a search for "C" - thats jimmy vaughn at his best!
21:56:33 <rk> I440r: i like stevies superstition much better than stevie wonders 
21:56:37 <I440r> thats some awesome guitar
21:56:45 <I440r> i think he did it with the fabulous t-birds
21:57:16 <rk> I440r: heh. the two stevies did an improv superstition once. it sucked, because of stevie w., he played all over the place. i felt really sorry for srv when i heard that :(
21:57:38 * kc5tja doesn't like srv either; technically, he is very good, but the music just doesn't vibe with me.
21:57:52 <SDO> technically SRV is dead.
21:57:55 <rk> kc5tja: *gasp*
21:58:05 * rk likes tightrope
21:58:18 <I440r> texas flood is an awesome song. its like jimi hendrix's red house with different music/lyrics
21:58:20 <SDO> I cried on the day he died, only person I have cried over other than my father.
21:58:27 <kc5tja> SDO: I'm talking about his playing technique, not his vital signs.
21:58:33 <SDO> kc5tja, I know.
21:58:37 <gilbertdeb> hahah
21:58:39 <SDO> but you talkined in the present tense.
21:58:40 <SDO> LOL
21:59:03 <rk> ...srv is dead? /me was never informed
21:59:09 <SDO> I will never forget where I was either, in the color computer graphic lab on campus in 1991
21:59:11 <SDO> or 1990
21:59:15 <I440r> argh i need a decent description of the OMF-51 object file format, the doc from intel is as useless as tits on a boar-hog
21:59:15 <rk> heh
21:59:16 <SDO> Oct 19th?
21:59:16 <kc5tja> rk: Been dead for some time now.
21:59:22 <kc5tja> Died in a helicopter crash
21:59:24 <SDO> hell, forgot the date, but I remember the time.
21:59:27 <SDO> Yep, leaving a show.
21:59:31 * rk cries
21:59:33 <SDO> 4 or 5 others with him.
21:59:36 * rk listens to tightrope
21:59:50 <rk> that was one person who didnt deserve it
21:59:56 <rk> ...
21:59:57 <rk> anywa
22:00:05 <kc5tja> I440r: Tits on a boar-hog are quite useful.  :D
22:00:20 <rk> kc5tja: tits in general are useful.
22:00:21 <I440r> lol
22:00:29 <I440r> only if your another boar-hog :)
22:00:42 <rk> kc5tja: always provide entertainment.
22:01:17 <kc5tja> rk: If you're into that kind of thing.
22:01:55 * rk likes tits. preferrably on the body of a female human.
22:02:02 <rk> ...who is not related in any way...
22:02:33 <gilbertdeb> rk why the disclaimer?
22:02:36 <gilbertdeb> ;)
22:02:52 * kc5tja slowly backs away from gilbertdeb
22:03:03 <gilbertdeb> heheheh
22:03:03 <rk> to emphasize that i am from the southern states :P
22:03:03 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedtime at least")
22:03:18 <gilbertdeb> well, I'm in miami.
22:03:27 <gilbertdeb> but I guess that is so far south it no longer counts as south.
22:04:46 <rk> gilbertdeb: florida doesnt count
22:04:50 <rk> georgia does
22:05:09 <gilbertdeb> Northern florida sorta does.
22:06:02 <rk> gilbertdeb: yeah, its influenced by georgia
22:07:05 <rk> you know what I realized? Southern females are either astoundingly nice-looking, or causes-shrimp-effect looking. theres no "middle step"
22:07:22 <I440r> lol
22:07:28 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
22:07:31 <I440r> in indiana they are all FAT
22:07:42 <gilbertdeb> rk in any case, they all ignoring me.
22:07:45 <I440r> 4 ft 6 and 490 lb is avg here
22:07:47 <gilbertdeb> must be things I say.
22:07:57 <rk> lol
22:07:58 <gilbertdeb> and why won't they wanna know about the wonders of OpenSource?
22:08:11 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
22:08:25 <rk> the california girls are nice, but they are all so DAMN ST00PID!
22:08:35 <gilbertdeb> I think they pretend.
22:08:39 <gilbertdeb> don't you?
22:08:42 <rk> "and he like, called me, and I'm like, OMG!"
22:08:54 <gilbertdeb> california has berkeley, stanford, caltech and *
22:09:07 <I440r> lol
22:09:09 <rk> i try to pretend to be somewhat smart. its hard to hide if you're a geek :)
22:09:19 <I440r> berzerkly you mean
22:09:34 <rk> gilbertdeb: im talking about the good looking california girls (80%)
22:09:37 <I440r> all centers of unamericanism
22:09:43 <gilbertdeb> heheheh.
22:09:43 <gilbertdeb> I440r she gave as BSD.
22:09:44 <rk> and 90%^ of the good looking ones are st00pid
22:09:46 <I440r> anti-americanism
22:10:08 <rk> thats why as good as all of the harvard and stanford girls are ugly
22:10:13 <I440r> thers NOTHING that comes out of berzerkly thats worth a damn
22:10:19 <I440r> specially not its students :)
22:10:27 <gilbertdeb> rk there are good looking indians in harvard ;)
22:10:31 <gilbertdeb> I've seen them :D
22:10:35 * rk is going to germany to learn stuff :)
22:10:51 <rk> gilbertdeb: but they arent californians!
22:10:59 <rk> gilbertdeb: you missed my point! thats why people ignore you!
22:11:00 <rk> lol
22:11:15 <rk> indians is another group where theres no middle step
22:11:23 <rk> same with asians :)
22:11:39 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
22:11:46 <gilbertdeb> rk you should meet some latinas.
22:12:24 <I440r> i want a chinese/american gf !!!
22:12:26 <rk> gilbertdeb: they all have huge asses and no hips
22:12:31 <rk> I440r: me too!
22:12:51 <gilbertdeb> rk  I think thats great!
22:12:55 <gilbertdeb> have you seen them dance??
22:13:05 * rk believes that many asian girls want white or black guys due to ... erm ... "size constraints"
22:13:07 <I440r> or juge hips and no arses :)
22:13:18 <rk> I440r: naah, not latinas
22:13:28 <rk> gilbertdeb: theres usually just a few of them that are good.
22:13:37 <rk> gilbertdeb: im not into latinas much...
22:13:40 <gilbertdeb> rk, and yet they are ALL ignoring me.
22:13:50 <gilbertdeb> I must have been kick banned out of view.
22:13:52 <rk> gilbertdeb: well, now you know why
22:14:57 <rk> gilbertdeb: i dont like black women that much either, although theres some nice ones :)
22:14:57 <gilbertdeb> rk I'm working on it though: science section at various barnes and nobles ;)
22:15:05 <rk> hah!
22:15:08 <gilbertdeb> yep.
22:15:10 --- quit: SDO (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:15:14 <gilbertdeb> rarely does ANYONE come there.
22:15:34 <gilbertdeb> but, when they do, and they stay too long I can usually get in a word or two about open source and cool stuff.
22:15:40 <rk> gilbertdeb: lemme help you there. what do you do right now?
22:15:40 <gilbertdeb> and I get a 'wow' before they leave.
22:15:45 <gilbertdeb> emmm
22:15:51 <rk> gilbertdeb: do you get numbers? no.
22:15:52 <gilbertdeb> <--- impoverished student.
22:15:59 <rk> gilbertdeb: college or hs?
22:16:09 <gilbertdeb> if they don't offer the number *shrug*
22:16:10 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth
22:16:10 <gilbertdeb> college.
22:16:19 <I440r> serg!!!
22:16:21 <I440r> hi dood
22:16:25 <Serg_Penguin> hiiiiii !!!
22:16:36 <Serg_Penguin> how are you ?
22:16:42 <rk> gilbertdeb: well, shouldnt be that hard. by college, the few remaining virgins start getting horny (it takes girls a little longer to do so)
22:16:50 <rk> Serg_Penguin: wassap!
22:16:58 <rk> gilbertdeb: anyway, pick one. take your time.
22:17:10 <rk> gilbertdeb: if she has a bf, no big deal, just go a little slower
22:17:16 <gilbertdeb> hahahahahah
22:17:24 <gilbertdeb> thats the best one I've heard yet.
22:17:27 <rk> gilbertdeb: if she tells you about losing her bf, then you're good.
22:17:30 <gilbertdeb> I"m writing this down.
22:17:50 <rk> gilbertdeb: anyway, go a little faster if she has none, a little slower if she does.
22:18:16 <gilbertdeb> rk how do you know all this?
22:18:49 <rk> gilbertdeb: after a time, start offering no-big-deal stuff, like, "dammit, i have to take this there, but then ill be late for that" "oh, ill do it, i gotta go past that anyway"
22:18:53 <rk> gilbertdeb: i just do, experience
22:19:04 <gilbertdeb> cool.
22:19:26 <gilbertdeb> rk i figured I'd figure out how to become a millionaire, become a millionaire, and throw large parties and they'd come.
22:19:30 <gilbertdeb> so thats what I was working on :D
22:19:31 <rk> gilbertdeb: when she hugs you, great! keep your cool, chill, and dont go crazy.
22:20:13 <rk> it usually takes longer to get from hug-to-kiss than from none-to-hug
22:20:31 <gilbertdeb> rk whaaa?
22:20:32 <gilbertdeb> why not?
22:20:41 <gilbertdeb> i can't beat my chest and howl at the moon?
22:21:30 <kc5tja> re Serg_Penguin
22:21:40 <gilbertdeb> it wouldn't hurt at all if they're on their nth linux distro.
22:21:56 <rk> gilbertdeb: anyway, keep it cool, and when she invites you over, chill, when you invite her over, chill, but when she asks you if she can come over to your house, make sure youve got a stash
22:22:09 <gilbertdeb> right.
22:22:12 <gilbertdeb> a stash.
22:22:18 <rk> gilbertdeb: not pot
22:22:23 <gilbertdeb> oh.
22:22:24 <gilbertdeb> n/m
22:22:29 <gilbertdeb> I'll cancel that order.
22:22:31 <gilbertdeb> :D
22:22:33 <rk> :P
22:22:49 <rk> anyway, keep them ready, dont force it, it might not happen, but it might too
22:22:50 <gilbertdeb> ah!
22:22:51 <gilbertdeb> I get it.
22:23:10 <Serg_Penguin> haha, ren #forth #pickup ;))))
22:23:21 <I440r> lol
22:23:21 <I440r> ya
22:23:36 <gilbertdeb> :D
22:23:46 <Serg_Penguin> that's cool
22:23:47 <rk> gilbertdeb: just be ready. you gotta advance a little, but you cant force it. that part is the hardest of them all
22:23:59 <gilbertdeb> I'm a patient man.
22:24:06 <gilbertdeb> thats not a worry at all.
22:24:12 <rk> THINGS NOT TO DO WHILE YOU HAVE A G/F
22:24:33 <rk> "No, I can't pick you up, football is on."
22:24:43 <gilbertdeb> stay up all night and respond to all questions with 'huh'?
22:24:46 <I440r> ill brb gotta go do some shit
22:24:49 <rk> Instead, say "My car is broken
22:24:50 <I440r> :)
22:24:53 <gilbertdeb> hahha
22:25:13 <Serg_Penguin> my last one once said: Why does comp have a rat if u can control it NORMAL way', she meant kbd commandline
22:25:23 <gilbertdeb> hahah
22:25:45 <Serg_Penguin> she meabt comps like Z80 or C64 ;))
22:25:53 <Serg_Penguin> meaNt
22:26:54 <Serg_Penguin> anyway, she was of orthodox faith, wanting kids and family, so i dropped her - i don't wanna spend my life on this ;))))
22:27:23 <gilbertdeb> l ron hubbard says no huh?
22:27:27 <rk> no: "Oh yeah, i had lunch with some_chick yesterday." yes: "i was helping some_chick, you know, that ugly one, with something:
22:27:30 <rk> "
22:28:05 <rk> heh
22:28:15 <Serg_Penguin> gilbertdeb: no, he says YES and NO to pickup, but we can have our own opinion, unlike ortodoxes
22:29:42 <rk> she calls you at 3am: "oh, honey, lemme sleep, its 3am!" yes: "i have to work tomorrow morning. can i call you back on my cell tomorrow morning while i get dressed?"
22:29:53 <rk> (and drive there)
22:30:29 * Serg_Penguin just unplugs the phone for nite time
22:30:34 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
22:30:51 <rk> oh, gilbertdeb, by the way, I know noting about this, i read this somewhere. im just as much of a loser as you are :P
22:31:21 <gilbertdeb> Aah!
22:31:29 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
22:31:32 <gilbertdeb> preach on.
22:31:35 <Serg_Penguin> hey, RK, never devaluate self !!!
22:31:36 <gilbertdeb> I've read them too.
22:32:28 <rk> they seem to work though. ive had some success lately, and she has a bf too!
22:32:39 <gilbertdeb> cool man!
22:32:41 <gilbertdeb> ^5
22:32:43 <rk> NEVER EVER STARE AT ANYONE IN CLASS!
22:33:11 <Serg_Penguin> rk: you may be winner easy ;)) i was a loser w/ work, but now i have growing stats since 1999, never dropped !
22:33:12 <rk> i learned that the hard way (*nurtures face*)
22:33:13 <gilbertdeb> Oh?
22:33:21 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
22:33:39 <rk> WOULD YOU STOP STARING AT ME, YOU FREAK!!! *smack*
22:33:52 <gilbertdeb> awwww.
22:34:01 <rk> ...haha, look at him, he just got slapped by kelli...
22:34:23 <kc5tja> That's when you say, "That's more than what most of you'll get in the next week."
22:34:32 <rk> heh
22:34:41 <gilbertdeb> hahahah
22:34:55 <rk> anybody have 1337 php skillz?
22:35:16 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: i missed your 3-storey curse all the way :))
22:36:06 <kc5tja> 3-story curse?
22:38:42 <Serg_Penguin> in RU, strength of an oath is measured in 'storeys', 'floors'. Drunk man says 3-storey ones, sinking sailor - maybe, skyscraper ;))
22:39:20 <Serg_Penguin> i just said what your phrase was to complex 4 me to parse
22:39:31 <gilbertdeb> hahah. I remember the one about forcefully forgetting something involving the 3rd mast of a ship etc.
22:39:35 <kc5tja> Heh
22:41:02 <Serg_Penguin> to add more storeys, ;)), RU likes chaining words, just like German
22:41:11 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: The punchline is that the poor sap just got slapped by a girl.  The people making fun of him, however, likely won't even come close to sexual intercourse with a girl (or boy as the case may be) within the next week.  Hence, him getting slapped is more sex-related action than what those making fun of him will see in the next week.
22:42:08 <Serg_Penguin> aah, i got !
22:43:40 <kc5tja> :)
22:44:00 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: do folks in USA curse hard, or just 'two words' ?
22:44:14 <kc5tja> Depends.
22:44:40 <gilbertdeb> Serg_Penguin f, mofo, S S_head, dipS_ fing_F.
22:44:48 <gilbertdeb> not much variation.
22:44:54 <kc5tja> Those aren't exactly curses.
22:45:05 <gilbertdeb> personally, I feel insulted if the insultee resorts to those tired ones.
22:45:20 <kc5tja> Most do.  :)
22:45:32 <gilbertdeb> I'd like some fresh ones!
22:45:48 <gilbertdeb> totally new ones I might even write down!
22:45:55 --- join: SDO (~beos@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
22:46:00 <SDO> kc5tja
22:46:02 <kc5tja> I think the best and funniest I've ever heard was, "May your Frigidaire stick to your face!"
22:46:04 <kc5tja> re SDO
22:46:10 <gilbertdeb> hehe.
22:46:14 <SDO> I got the files up and ready.
22:46:22 <SDO> http://sdo.dyndns.org/sdoreviews/truefireguitarcourseware/PlayKillerBluesGuitarCourse
22:46:24 <kc5tja> SDO: Okies.  Viewable in Linux I hope?
22:46:27 <SDO> Just grab the *gz files.
22:46:40 <SDO> PDF and MP3s, they had better be viewable in linx.
22:46:56 <gilbertdeb> tired.
22:46:59 <gilbertdeb> Zzzzzz
22:47:02 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth
22:47:03 <SDO> there is an app also that is .exe for dos/windows, but don't worry, it only is a front end to the PDF and MP3s.
22:47:03 <Serg_Penguin> i wanna say 'Shut up!', i may say 'Tie your tongue three gallows knots !'
22:47:41 <kc5tja> I'm getting a lot of broken links.
22:47:52 <kc5tja> Oh, the .gz files.
22:47:57 <kc5tja> file (no s)
22:48:06 <kc5tja> But that's just notation guide.
22:48:10 <SDO> are you able to get the .gz files?
22:48:24 <kc5tja> No.
22:48:27 <SDO> there is one right now, the rest are coming.
22:48:32 <SDO> hmmmmm, I can get them here.
22:48:40 <kc5tja> OOOoooo....you didn't tell me that.  :D
22:48:44 <kc5tja> That'd explain things.
22:48:58 <kc5tja> Like I said, I could get the Notation Guide, but I didn't know that there'd be more.
22:49:11 <SDO> http://sdo.dyndns.org/sdoreviews/truefireguitarcourseware/PlayKillerBluesGuitarCourse/01-NotationGuide.tar.gz
22:49:16 * kc5tja nods
22:49:17 <SDO> ya the rest are being tarballed and compressed.
22:49:38 <SDO> it will be a while for the rest of them, start off with 01 and then proceed to 02 and so forth.
22:49:44 <kc5tja> Downloading
22:49:56 * kc5tja nods
22:50:03 <SDO> 02 is done.
22:50:12 <SDO> please only DL one at a time.
22:50:18 <kc5tja> Oh, shoot.  I don't have enough HD space.
22:50:20 <kc5tja> :/
22:50:26 <SDO> oh well.
22:50:30 <SDO> waste of space/time.
22:50:35 * kc5tja really needs to install a new CD player so he can read his Slackware CD-ROM.
22:50:35 <SDO> I'll shoot you prompotly when I meet you
22:50:42 <SDO> Yes, you do :)
22:51:04 <kc5tja> SDO: Man, this CD-ROM used to work so well, but it is just falling apart now.  >:/  They just don't make them like they used to.
22:51:09 <kc5tja> They're about as reliable as floppies now, it seems.
22:51:29 <SDO> CDROM or a ROM drive?
22:51:36 <kc5tja> CD-ROM drives
22:51:41 <SDO> I have loads of CD ROM drives, you get what ya pay for :)
22:51:54 <SDO> I buy Yamaha and ASUS and that is baout it.
22:52:19 <SDO> ASUS IMHO makes the most feature rich, and also the 2nd most reliable overall, and the 1st reliable in the IDE CDROM markets.
22:52:45 <SDO> I have fantastic luck with Yamama SCSI
22:52:56 <kc5tja> I believe I have a Yamaha IDE drive.
22:52:56 <SDO> and they hold some value too.
22:53:02 <SDO> They offer a nice upgrade path for cheap.
22:53:06 <kc5tja> And it craps out on me.
22:53:11 <SDO> bummer.
22:53:15 <kc5tja> It doesn't play half my music CDs.
22:53:18 <kc5tja> For reasons unknown.
22:53:20 <SDO> I have many Yamahas and NEVER a problem.
22:53:32 <SDO> well, maybe your music CDs are screwed?
22:53:32 <kc5tja> (the CDs were made before the whole copy protection thing started happening, so it isn't that)
22:53:38 <SDO> LOL
22:53:43 <kc5tja> No, because they play just fine in other players.
22:53:50 <SDO> copy protection, another thing I don't worry about.
22:54:06 <kc5tja> But, CDs which do NOT play in my stereo unit will often play fine in my CD-ROM.
22:54:07 <kc5tja> Go figure.
22:54:33 * kc5tja worries about CP, because I've had discs that wouldn't play in any of my drives, because of it.
22:54:51 <kc5tja> Besides, I paid for the fucking disk, I'll do what the fuck I want with it, thank you very much.
22:54:56 <kc5tja> >:D
22:56:22 <rk> I440r: heh. i just ran a simple int test, which turned out to crash :P
22:57:09 <I440r> int test ?
22:57:10 <rk> I440r: help?
22:57:22 <I440r> oh interrupt
22:57:31 <rk> yeah
22:57:40 <rk> go to the room, ill post the src there :)
22:57:51 <rk> please?
22:58:13 <I440r> hang on heh
22:58:16 <Robert> Hahaha!
22:58:36 <Robert> He's been trying to get people to join forever.
22:58:49 <rk> Robert: good morning. you usually dont wake up this early :)
22:58:52 <SDO> kc5tja, just tossed an auto shell script to do the crunching and balling of this stuff, should be done in a few minutes.
22:58:56 <rk> Robert: darn! you foiled my plan!
22:58:57 <Robert> Schule :(
22:59:11 <kc5tja> SDO: OK.  Will the site remain up for a while?
22:59:18 <kc5tja> (like for 30 to 60 days?)
22:59:31 <rk> Robert: schule faengt bei mir am 3. september an/
23:00:07 <Robert> BAH
23:00:15 <Robert> Stupid american ;)
23:00:48 <SDO> kc5tja, I'll keep it up for 30-60 for sure.
23:00:51 <Robert> Wie lang sind die Ferien da?
23:00:57 <SDO> Have to, going to have to work with you and some ohters over the time.
23:01:06 <kc5tja> Cool.
23:01:12 <Robert> i.e. when did you end last semester?
23:01:25 <Robert> Serg_Penguin: Hello :)
23:01:34 <kc5tja> Robert: A little late, aren't you?  :D
23:02:08 <SDO> done with 04 and 05
23:02:08 <Robert> Am I?
23:02:12 <rk> Robert: zwischen 10 wochen und 3 monate
23:02:19 <SDO> at times I do like shell.
23:02:23 <rk> Robert: meiner meinung nach viel zu lang :(
23:02:41 <Robert> OK. About 10 weeks here too.
23:02:46 <Robert> Have to leave now, bye
23:02:54 <SDO> bye Robert
23:02:59 <SDO> come back again real soon :)
23:03:14 <SDO> bring dark tan Helga for us too.
23:03:39 * Robert looks confused.
23:03:44 <rk> Robert: bis spaeter!
23:03:57 <rk> Robert: und nochmals entschuldigung
23:04:23 <SDO> did anyone see Zak McGowen get his a$$ kicked on Smackdown tonight?
23:04:36 <SDO> LOL, it was freaking amazing.
23:04:39 <SDO> busted leg and all.
23:04:51 <SDO> Looks like the one legged wonder kid is out, and I doubt he will return.
23:05:17 <SDO> It was a bad story line that didn't go far, it was SO unbelievable that even the WWE was looking foolish, and that is all the time anyway.
23:10:50 <kc5tja> Heheh
23:10:58 * kc5tja doesn't watch that stuff.
23:11:17 <kc5tja> I get all my fighting fix I need in aikido.  :)
23:15:46 <SDO> LOL
23:16:19 <SDO> I do cause my life sucks and on Thur nights I get to see steroided out wackos beat the crap in makebelieve land, out of each other, so I feel I don't need to sign up and go to Liberia.
23:16:24 <SDO> where liberation is a joke.
23:16:56 <SDO> 06 07 done
23:18:48 <SDO> nice photos, maybe the end is near ...  :)   http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20030821/capt.sge.slr63.210803220453.photo00.default-259x389.jpg
23:20:36 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: is you keybind idea described in some Web document ?
23:23:14 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: No.
23:23:22 <kc5tja> I never bothered to document it beyond the source code.
23:23:44 <SDO> kc5tja, I know this sounds odd, but do you have spare machines running with extra cpu cycles that you can burn for me?
23:23:56 <SDO> LOL
23:23:57 <kc5tja> Not at the moment.
23:23:59 <SDO> ok
23:24:07 <kc5tja> Why?
23:24:09 <SDO> SETI, I want to kick the crap out of a friend that is a C++ bigot
23:24:15 <kc5tja> Ahh
23:24:20 <kc5tja> Do you have a SETI client in Forth or something?  :)
23:24:25 <SDO> I wish.
23:24:29 <SDO> that would be awesome.
23:24:31 <kc5tja> I suppose my 7.15909MHz Amiga won't cut it then, eh?  :)
23:24:33 <SDO> I wonder if they would consider it.
23:24:38 <SDO> kc5tja, nope.
23:24:43 <SDO> 1-2 ghz is best.
23:24:44 <SDO> LOL
23:25:10 <kc5tja> We'll see.
23:25:20 <SDO> now that SETI is 'over', they are just rehashing old work units.  I wonder if some of them guys would do a ANS forth port.
23:25:21 * kc5tja might be able to install one on this box, but it has to run under Linux.
23:26:18 <SDO> http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/unix.html
23:26:24 <SDO> pick a client that suits ya.
23:26:40 <SDO> existing account 'seti@palomablanca.net'
23:26:52 <SDO> anyone else wanna help smash some C++ bigot in SETI, feel free to go for it.
23:27:14 <kc5tja> Hey, I like C++.  It goes great with catsup and mustard.
23:27:37 <SDO> kc5tja, C++ is all I have on this BeOS, they didn't use GCC3.x so I'm stuck without ObjC :(
23:27:56 <SDO> Maybe OBOS will come out, or Zeta, and they both supposedly support/have GCC 3.x  Then I will be in HEAVEN!
23:27:57 <kc5tja> What version of GCC do you have?
23:28:01 <SDO> 2.95
23:28:06 <kc5tja> That supports objective-C.
23:28:10 <SDO> does it?
23:28:14 <SDO> hmmmmmmmmm
23:28:22 <kc5tja> You might need to download/install a runtime for it, but I know the *compiler* supports it.
23:28:25 <SDO> oh ,I know, I don't have the preprocessor/package installed.
23:28:26 <SDO> :)
23:28:29 <SDO> Yes.
23:28:30 <SDO> you are right.
23:28:33 <SDO> I hvae to install the package.
23:28:41 <SDO> and the runtime.
23:28:44 <SDO> I'll try it.
23:28:47 <kc5tja> Are there BeOS bindings for Objective C?
23:28:50 <SDO> No
23:28:53 <SDO> that is what sucks.
23:28:57 <SDO> Their libs are all C++
23:28:58 <kc5tja> You'll have to make your own then.
23:28:59 <SDO> and no bridges.
23:29:05 <SDO> Yes, I know :)
23:29:08 <kc5tja> Thankfully, GCC also is an Objective-C++ compiler.  :)
23:29:20 <SDO> yep
23:29:32 <SDO> I adore ObjC, and more particularly the runtime for it.
23:29:35 <SDO> I like introspection.
23:29:36 <kc5tja> (That sounds like someone trying to sell an object oriented version of Smalltalk)
23:29:39 <SDO> Makes me feel 'free'
23:29:45 * kc5tja prefers Oberon, frankly.
23:30:01 <SDO> I liked Oberon when it was new, but then lost interest in Pascal all around.
23:30:04 <kc5tja> But I like Objective C too.
23:30:11 <SDO> The system was not on too many platforms either in the 90s
23:30:15 <kc5tja> Oberon != Pascal
23:30:18 <SDO> LOL
23:30:21 <SDO> I know, but sure smells like it.
23:30:26 <kc5tja> Oberon is a refinement of Modula-2.
23:30:34 <SDO> Yah, which is a redefiniement of Pascal.
23:30:35 <SDO> LOL
23:30:39 <SDO> All from the same dude.
23:30:40 <kc5tja> No, actually not.
23:30:46 <kc5tja> Pascal was intended to be a teaching language.
23:30:54 <kc5tja> Modula-2 was the first "real world" language designed by Wirth.
23:31:08 <SDO> heheheh, I'm not convinced he has build a real world language/system yet.
23:31:14 <SDO> But I do admire him and his work.
23:31:18 <kc5tja> Yes, I suppose one can say that it's inspired by the same Algol descent as Pascal, but they really are quite independent.  :)
23:31:22 <SDO> 20 years ago I loved Pascal.
23:31:24 <kc5tja> I do.
23:31:28 <kc5tja> Oberon works.
23:31:31 <SDO> Modula 2 came around I lost interest.
23:31:32 <kc5tja> I've used it for some Linux development here.
23:32:03 <kc5tja> And Oberon is the only statically-compiled language I'm aware of that does real, honest-to-goodness garbage collection.
23:32:10 <SDO> I have used ObjC since 1989 and adore it, simple, deeply powerful, and with good libs just what the doctor ordered.
23:32:24 <SDO> kc5tja, that is nice.
23:32:35 <SDO> there are tools for C++ that do various GC.
23:32:36 <kc5tja> But missing support for modules, strong type checking, etc.  :)
23:32:45 <kc5tja> Yeah, conservative at best.
23:32:48 <SDO> I'm not convinced that it has to be static and Oberon to be uniquely GC'enabled.
23:33:14 <kc5tja> The langauge semantics of C would break if it supported garbage collection.
23:33:22 <SDO> I need to reread my GC book I got 4 years ago and remaster that crap.
23:33:38 <SDO> (get it, crap, garbage, collection :)  hehehe
23:33:44 <SDO> It is a fasinating subject.
23:33:53 * kc5tja nods
23:34:16 * kc5tja was planning on writing Dolphin (my own OS) in Oberon.
23:34:28 <SDO> there is a ST called Dolphin.
23:34:33 <kc5tja> It's a powerful competitor to Forth for the task.
23:34:47 <kc5tja> Maybe as a project name, but that's it.
23:34:57 <kc5tja> I'm not familiar with a commercial product made by Atari called the Dolphin.
23:34:57 <SDO> quite nice for windows only as I recall, in 2001 oopsla the guys did a demo with mindstorms robotics, it was cool!
23:35:17 <SDO> No, smalltalk
23:35:22 <kc5tja> Ah, you're talking about Smalltalk.
23:35:36 <SDO> UK guys.
23:35:39 * kc5tja nods
23:35:47 <SDO> http://www.object-arts.com/
23:35:50 <SDO> quite a nice system.
23:35:59 <kc5tja> Yeah, but I'm not convinced of Smalltalk's viability.
23:36:07 <SDO> One of the non-ST-80 type IDE environments as I recall.
23:36:13 <SDO> ST is very viable.
23:36:39 <kc5tja> Viable in the same sense as Forth maybe.
23:36:50 <kc5tja> It'll never be used for mainstream application development.
23:36:56 <SDO> it will come about again, who knows for sure on anything language, but it has been used for very large scale projects, problem is middle management wants to get promoted, and few people get promoted writing solid software, they get replaced.
23:37:16 <SDO> kc5tja, I don't agree with you, that is a hard thing to predict.
23:37:37 <SDO> Never is a long time, and things change.
23:37:43 <kc5tja> by that logic, Forth also has a rennaisance coming too.  And I just do not have faith in that.
23:37:52 <SDO> In fact things are changing back in the favor of ST and development, it goes in cycles, we'll see this time around.
23:37:55 <kc5tja> If it isn't C these days, it's Java.
23:38:14 <SDO> kc5tja, that is a leap to say ST and forth have the same cyclical nature of exposure.
23:38:26 <SDO> FORTH is a completely different beast, and has NEVER seen mainstream usage.
23:38:36 <SDO> ST has and will again, it is just a timing issue.
23:38:37 <kc5tja> Not true.
23:38:48 <I440r> sd0 it never will
23:38:50 <kc5tja> Forth was in the limelight of most 8-bit computer markets for an incredibly long period of time.
23:38:55 <SDO> kc5tja, well it has not seen mainstream outside of OF and embedded systems.
23:38:59 <I440r> "any moron and his autistic brother" cant code forth
23:39:09 <SDO> kc5tja, yes, but not in commercial usage, ok game systems :)
23:39:17 <kc5tja> SDO: Yes it was.
23:39:24 <SDO> I'm not bashing FORTH, I love it.
23:39:29 <kc5tja> Paperclip, a huge word processor for the C64, was written in Forth.
23:39:30 <I440r> i personally also think that the ans standard has done alot to discourage people from using forth
23:39:33 <kc5tja> Many database programs were written in Forth.
23:39:37 <SDO> kc5tja, I stand corrected.
23:39:41 <I440r> bash forth! heh
23:39:41 <I440r> lol
23:39:46 <SDO> I am not exposed to the C64, and it was a HUGE platform.
23:39:52 <SDO> bashforth, nice!
23:39:52 <I440r> kc5 i didnt know thyat
23:40:06 <I440r> leisure suit larry in the land of the lounge lizards was written in forth
23:40:08 <SDO> I had no idea that some apps for C64 were FORTH ased.
23:40:10 <I440r> crap game tho
23:40:15 <SDO> no way, I played that game!
23:40:27 <kc5tja> I think I had that game for the Amiga, IIRC.
23:40:28 <SDO> I have the .dsk image right here on my desktop for the Apple II emulator I use.
23:40:30 <kc5tja> Weird game.
23:40:31 <SDO> Ok, so I'm smoked.
23:40:45 <I440r> im drunk :)
23:41:06 <I440r> i saw a doom style game written in forth some years ago
23:41:06 <kc5tja> I'm quite sober, and looking at my bike thinking, "You know, that's a fine piece of machinery.  I'd like to go for a ride again."
23:41:07 <rk> I440r: but you're in a good mood. so thats good.
23:41:08 <SDO> kc5tja, you are right, I'm wrong, but I still stand by the statement FORTH and ST are not the same, and ST saw WAY bigger exposure on the programmer's side of usage than FORTH ever did.
23:41:13 <I440r> i had the sources but lost em
23:41:17 <kc5tja> But it's quite dark outside, and I've nowhere to go, and so, I won't.
23:41:31 <SDO> I have been in development houses for some gov projects that had over 1000 ST programmers in one group/division.
23:41:40 <kc5tja> Sure.
23:41:51 <kc5tja> Forth projects don't need 1000s of coders.  >:P
23:41:51 <SDO> I440r, you had the osurces for LSL?
23:41:53 * I440r needs a job :)
23:41:58 <SDO> kc5tja, lol
23:41:59 <I440r> get me a job there!!!!
23:42:02 * kc5tja is really getting sick and tired of this keyboard's deadkeys.
23:42:10 <kc5tja> I really need to turn this off somehow, but I can't find out how.
23:42:22 <I440r> sd0 i cant remember the name of the game
23:42:31 <I440r> or which forth it was
23:42:46 <kc5tja> The fact is, I intend on using Forth as a "secret weapon" language.
23:43:05 <I440r> :)
23:43:11 <kc5tja> Although FS/Forth will be released as open source, nobody will really know (except for a few people, like in this channel for instance) that I use Forth for my client's applications.
23:43:15 <I440r> it IS a secret weapon language in most of the places that use it
23:43:21 <SDO> kc5tja, I really do appreciate FORTH, and want to master it, yet I also am realistic in how it is far too difficult for most to master, mostly cause it is so simple, and also have it is too powerful for most people, cuase it is powerful.
23:43:32 <SDO> :)  I just love it, FORTH to me == POWERTOOL!
23:43:53 <I440r> forth is a BEAUTY tool too
23:43:59 <kc5tja> SDO: It's hard to master because a good book on it hasn't been written yet.
23:44:05 <SDO> actually to me FORTH is whatever I make it.
23:44:10 <kc5tja> Starting Forth was the best to date, but it's outdated today.
23:44:13 <I440r> im constantly being amazed at the beauty people produce in forth
23:44:23 <I440r> sd0 have you seen the isforth motto ?
23:44:26 <SDO> kc5tja, have you gotten Evil Empire's books?
23:44:33 <I440r> isforth because forth IS
23:44:33 <I440r> its a hanging sentence
23:44:37 <kc5tja> SDO: never heard of them.
23:44:43 <Serg_Penguin> I440r: forth is poetry in code ;))
23:44:44 <I440r> people ask what i mean by it...
23:44:54 <SDO> kc5tja, FORTH Inc, the Eliz books. :)
23:45:02 <I440r> the anser is "forth is whatever you want it to be so i cannot possibly finish that sentence"
23:45:02 <SDO> I440r, that isa cool slogan!
23:45:08 <kc5tja> SDO: Ahh.  I have FPH, but that's it.
23:45:11 <SDO> print some tshirts up, I will buy one in support of isforth.
23:45:13 <kc5tja> Very useful reference.
23:45:15 <I440r> i know
23:45:27 <I440r> and i thunked it up all by myselph :)
23:45:34 <Serg_Penguin> I440r: did you catch the letter
23:45:35 <Serg_Penguin> ?
23:45:42 <SDO> I440r like in the game quake3, IMPRESSIVE
23:45:48 <I440r> let me go check
23:46:07 <I440r> in what way is quake 3 impressive exactly ?
23:46:07 <I440r> heh
23:46:08 <SDO> Now get a logo with slogan on the bottom of the shirt, and let me buy one!
23:46:16 <SDO> fund your forth work with a tshirt.
23:46:20 <I440r> lol
23:46:30 <I440r> hmm
23:46:38 <I440r> who would buy it ?
23:46:44 <SDO> duh, me!
23:46:47 <SDO> I'll buy one.
23:46:48 <I440r> nobody in here, they would all want a free one :)
23:46:53 <SDO> 10-12 bucks, sure.
23:47:00 <SDO> fu** them that want things free.
23:47:02 <I440r> $4000 per shirt
23:47:06 <I440r> :)
23:47:17 <SDO> I just flipped a friend over in Squeak 40 bucks for his work on a minimalistic ST on a PDA he is developing.
23:47:29 <SDO> I'd give you 12 bucks for a tshirt, and 3 for delivery.
23:47:37 <I440r> im developing a commercial umbilical 8051 forth
23:47:40 <I440r> already got it mostly coded
23:47:41 <SDO> Has to be cool though, put some thoght and get someone to do a logo and make it cool!
23:47:47 <I440r> ive got a non umbilical version of it already
23:47:48 <kc5tja> I440r: Any potential buyers?
23:47:56 <I440r> Keil
23:48:02 <I440r> Keil has expressed an interest
23:48:03 <kc5tja> OK . . . that's one.  :)
23:48:15 <I440r> their C/Asm costs $3000 
23:48:15 <SDO> Hey, but the first one is the hardest to sell!
23:48:39 <SDO> oh, you mean a buyer for the 8051 stuff, sorry, I'm stuck in tshirt htoughts.
23:48:44 <I440r> they aint said they are interested in buying it off me yet or even interested in marketing it
23:48:50 <I440r> but they were interested in seeing it :)
23:48:56 <SDO> and stealing it.
23:49:15 <SDO> Dr. Evil
23:49:15 <I440r> i sent them the non umbilical one - thats an 8051 forth on a cyglan chip with a built in 8051 assembler
23:49:20 <I440r> all in about 4k
23:49:32 <I440r> serg i think i got it :)
23:49:47 <I440r> i got 5 mails there where there was only 4 previously
23:49:52 <I440r> ill see if the new one is you :)
23:50:04 <I440r> yea - its you :)
23:50:14 <SDO> http://sdo.dyndns.org/sdoreviews/truefireguitarcourseware/PlayKillerBluesGuitarCourse
23:50:16 * kc5tja is totally blind to opportunity, or something.
23:50:18 <SDO> ok they are all up now :)
23:50:26 <kc5tja> SDO: Thanks.
23:50:28 <SDO> enjoy, and keep in touch kc5tja about your progress.
23:50:31 <I440r> how so kc5 ?
23:50:46 <SDO> kc5tja, sure thing!  anyone else wanna do this thing, feel free to grab the packages and roll with it.
23:50:58 <kc5tja> The best thing I could come up with for my business is a lousy consulting company, that has amassed a grand spanking total of two customers.
23:51:17 <kc5tja> There's really no way to make money on FS/Forth.
23:51:24 <SDO> you got it.
23:51:27 <SDO> I agree.
23:51:36 <kc5tja> Hence, it'd have to be a product made with FS/Forth.
23:51:45 <kc5tja> And there are no products that I can make that would be of any sellable use.
23:52:05 <SDO> weather controllers, I'm convinced that will be a big FORTH seller :)
23:52:26 <kc5tja> I'm being serious here.
23:52:30 <SDO> millions of little ion emitters that are FORTH based, nanorobotics floating in the sky, all FORTH based.
23:52:36 <I440r> i started this forth so my father and i could do telemtery shit for power meters
23:52:55 <SDO> powermeters?
23:53:08 <SDO> you mean so someone wouldn't have to walk aorund and read the power usages on a meter?
23:53:10 * kc5tja has to pay rent.
23:53:28 <SDO> You are trying to put someone else out of a job?  Shame!
23:53:28 --- part: Serg_Penguin left #forth
23:53:34 <kc5tja> I have absolutely zero capital to start any serious business endeavor.
23:53:42 <SDO> FORTH will be loathed and hated by the PowerMeterReadersUnion.
23:54:38 <SDO> So how can you take what you have done with isforth and make it work somewhere else, another marekt, where you don't have to dump $$$ into it, someone else will.
23:54:44 <SDO> Never invest your own money.
23:54:54 <SDO> :)  Is lesson #1 in building a business.
23:55:03 <kc5tja> SDO: For the record, I have precisely zero customers at the moment.
23:55:12 <kc5tja> Zero customers == zero income.
23:55:18 <kc5tja> Zero income == zero capital.
23:55:18 <SDO> kc5tja, that sucks :(
23:55:32 <SDO> but again, don't invest your own money.  Bezo's got 500k from family.
23:55:37 <kc5tja> Hence, everything I do is coming out of my own money.
23:55:41 <SDO> Microshaft got millions from others, daddy likely.
23:55:50 <kc5tja> Do you know how much my family has?  Precisely $0.
23:55:55 <SDO> Apple borrowed from Markkula and others.
23:55:58 <kc5tja> My family is every bit as poor as I am right now.
23:56:04 <SDO> kc5tja, look somewhere els.e
23:56:09 <kc5tja> Who?
23:56:10 <kc5tja> Where?
23:56:11 <kc5tja> How?
23:56:14 <SDO> there are trillions of bucks invested each year in the world.
23:56:16 <kc5tja> I have no contacts.
23:56:22 <SDO> the guy with the question marks on his jacket?
23:56:28 <kc5tja> VCs are *NOT* investing in any tech firms right now.
23:56:37 <SDO> kc5tja, that is not true.
23:56:44 <SDO> They are just more frugil
23:56:46 <SDO> al
23:57:03 <SDO> The money is still there, and they know technology is still teh future, always has been.
23:57:23 <SDO> Buffet invested 300 million last year in Level3.
23:57:28 <SDO> Don't tell me folks are investing VC.
23:57:29 <kc5tja> Then I'll end up also needing lawyers and whatnot to cover my rear from VC greed.
23:58:01 <SDO> There is always money out there, be creative and think about solutions rather than poverty and problems.
23:58:14 <SDO> Successful people see beyond the obvious, and get creative.  Find someone that is if you are not.
23:58:22 <kc5tja> When the streets are only a few weeks away, you have no choice but to think about pverty.
23:58:35 <kc5tja> Again, who?  Where?  How?
23:58:36 <SDO> racehorses that win don't worry about the doggy and jockey next to them, they run like hell all the time!
23:58:40 <kc5tja> I have zero contacts.
23:58:53 <kc5tja> Nice, but I'm not a horse.
23:58:56 <kc5tja> I'm a human being.
23:59:05 <SDO> kc5tja, you have to create that reality, otherwise you are what you think, and if you fear and think poverty, you wll get it.
23:59:09 <kc5tja> I don't have a trainer to take care of me all the time.
23:59:16 <SDO> LOL, I know, you are a nice guy, it was an analogy.
23:59:27 <SDO> kc5tja, find a training, build a team, believe and they will too.
23:59:34 <SDO> It is about "Thoughts are Things!"
23:59:47 <SDO> If you want to make a million, you have to think like a millionaire.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.21