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01:37:00 <Serg_Penguin> hi
01:37:22 * Serg_Penguin is screwing w/ FreeBSD now :))
01:39:02 <Robert> Hi :)
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02:41:43 <Serg_Penguin> re ;)
02:42:41 <Robert> Hi serg :)
02:44:03 * Serg_Penguin is having hard time w/ FreeBSD setup
02:45:11 <hovil> I found the documentation to be quite good
02:45:35 <Serg_Penguin> yeah, but i got no lynx in default setup, so can't read even handbook
02:46:52 <Serg_Penguin> i have ^C-able hangage at boot time, and can't rise inet coz dunno in what the hole should i put DNS ip ;((
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06:57:52 <snowrichard> good morning
06:58:15 <tathi> morning
06:58:30 <snowrichard> brb need to refill coffee :) 
06:59:21 <snowrichard> there :) 
06:59:51 <snowrichard> I just read all the code to the little interpreter that I had written a few months ago
07:01:34 <snowrichard> must be a geek to read code before breakfast :) 
07:01:48 <tathi> yup :)
07:03:01 <snowrichard> right now it has 53 operations, my opcode structure gives me room for up to 240 primitives, so I still could add more if I need them.
07:03:37 <tathi> that should be plenty
07:04:24 <snowrichard> if the first 4 bits of the byte are 1 it is a user call and there is a 12 bit index subscript attached, otherwise it is a primitive call
07:07:50 <tathi> ah, 16*15
07:07:54 <tathi> was wondering where 240 came from
07:08:29 <snowrichard> yeah codes F0-FF are part of user calls
07:08:42 <snowrichard> anything less than F0 is a primitive call
07:09:46 <tathi> I like it
07:10:19 <snowrichard> If I ever needed more than 4096 functions for an application I think I would be doing it in C anyway
07:11:07 <snowrichard> I don't write programs that big all in one piece
07:11:57 <tathi> yeah
07:12:41 <snowrichard> kiss principle you know
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07:14:28 <snowrichard> code hack ? guess I'll take a look :) 
07:15:32 <snowrichard> irc stuff
07:16:53 <snowrichard> so I am going to be writing a programming course for my son later on and I will use this language as an example.
07:17:53 <snowrichard> its also named after him :) 
07:20:50 <tathi> :)
07:22:45 <snowrichard> he like started junior high yesterday
07:23:36 <snowrichard> says he likes to look at some the eight grade girls in his drama class.  
07:26:32 <snowrichard> won't be long before he goes off to college.  they grow up so fast. 
07:27:04 <tathi> yes they do
07:27:23 <TreyB> Often, not fast enough ;-)
07:27:40 <snowrichard> the idea of him driving scares me a little.  I've seen the way he drive the cars in the video games.  :) 
07:33:29 <snowrichard> well I have bored you enough I will be away from keyboard for a while.
07:35:58 <ian_p> good luck 
07:36:00 <ian_p> :P
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07:51:21 <tathi> snowrichard: video games have nothing to do with reality :)
07:51:54 <tathi> snowrichard: seriously, one of my brothers (he's 19) is a pretty crazy driver in video games, but very careful in reality.
07:56:13 <snowrichard> actually he has been driving go carts for a while now, and has driven their car on their land out in the country already he will do ok.
07:59:19 <snowrichard> I can run my PC in my car now. 
08:00:17 <snowrichard> going to get a separate battery and a solar battery charger next month.
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09:52:37 <thin> hi ircmonkey
09:52:53 <thin> you new?
09:58:24 <thin> anybody here? robert? xef4 fractal rk ooo ma] jdrake sdo treyb ian_p
09:59:22 * TreyB lurks whilst working.
10:01:54 * thin gasps!
10:04:32 <thin> treyb: what are you working on?
10:04:41 <TreyB> PalmOS 6
10:05:50 * Herkamire is occationally paying attention
10:05:53 <thin> i'm coding a lil forth program to determine the genetic variance of a civilization raised from 2 couples
10:06:31 <Herkamire> thin: riiiiight
10:10:19 <thin> problem: 2 couples crashland on an earth-like planet.  They wish to re-establish civilization as quickly as possible.  As a result, each person will mate with every possible mate, including the children of other couples once the children reach pubetry.  They will avoid mating with anyone related genetically in order to prevent recessive genes from appearing.  How long can they mate before they run out of genetic diversity?  How big will the popul
10:10:54 <thin> ation be?  (Later on, determine how many are distantly related, assume they mate, and determine the chances of recessives.  Also, determine the chances of recessives after taking into account of mutation & natural variability.)
10:11:12 <thin> heh
10:11:38 <thin> biology textbooks tell you there's not enough genetic variation from 2 couples, or even 100 people in a population..
10:11:46 <thin> but i'm going to test that :P
10:12:25 <thin> genetic variation from 100 people in a population to be healthy that is
10:13:12 <Herkamire> with 2 couples you can't have more than 3 generations without inbreeding
10:13:58 <thin> lets call the 2 couples 1st generation
10:14:05 <thin> so 1st generation produces 2nd generation
10:14:20 <thin> 2nd generation mate with 2nd generation AND 1st generation..
10:14:34 <thin> 1st generation also mates with 3rd and 4th generation..
10:15:00 <thin> the variation runs out at 3rd or 4th i know, but when i add in mutation, it could go for longer..
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10:19:59 <Herkamire> thin: mutation won't make much of any difference with numbers this small
10:21:19 <Robert> Hi
10:21:40 <Herkamire> hi Robert :)
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10:21:54 <Robert> Herkamire:)
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10:43:11 <thin> wow, amazing conversation going on between robert and herkamire
10:45:22 <thin> this channel is on FIRE! 
10:45:25 <Robert> YES
10:45:31 <Robert> And you're going to die, thin 
10:45:56 <thin> i'm going to have another channel interview with chuck moore
10:46:10 <thin> but before that, we'll invite the lord of the dance and ask him about forth
10:46:36 <thin> "How does Forth apply to your dancing techniques?"
10:47:31 <thin> "It doesn't"
10:47:36 <thin> "WTF?"
10:47:43 <thin> "Why did you invite me here asshole!?"
10:47:48 <thin> "BWAHAHAHA! "
10:48:00 <thin> shit
10:48:04 <thin> forthers are fucking insane
10:48:27 <thin> gtg
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10:48:29 <Robert> :)
10:49:11 <Robert> thin needs sa psychiatrist and some political reeducation.
10:49:55 <Herkamire> Robert: you think that would work?
10:50:12 <Herkamire> I'll see if I can speek to his parents ;)
10:50:22 <Robert> Well.. I think it's fair to give him one last chance before execution.
10:50:27 <Robert> Haha :)
10:50:46 <Robert> I wonder how he'd react to that.
10:50:58 <Robert> "Your 20 year old son is annoying me. Do you think you could talk to him?"
10:54:03 <rk> j0 people
10:54:56 <Herkamire> jo mama
10:55:09 <Herkamire> Robert: execution?!
10:55:24 <Robert> ;)
10:55:38 <Robert> I don't think we'll have to be that rude to poor thin.
10:56:50 <rk> Robert: |-|0\/\/ |=4|- 4|-3 `/00 \/\/|7|-| 73|-| \/|\/|????
10:59:29 <Herkamire> leaning toothpics
10:59:59 <rk> :P
11:00:00 <Robert> All I see in there is the '73', so I assume rk already left us.
11:00:29 <rk> .......?
11:00:49 <Robert> Study the quit message of kc5tja, and you will know.
11:00:52 <rk> Robert: how far are y00 with the vm?
11:01:39 <rk> THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK
11:01:52 <rk> erm.....'
11:02:49 <Herkamire> I don't understand that. except the kc5tja/6 part
11:04:44 <Robert> Thanks for the conversation, and greetings by kc5tja. And then something about going offline... Radio jargon is hard to understand!
11:04:56 <Robert> er, s/by/from/
11:05:02 <Robert> English is also hard :D
11:06:50 <rk> Robert: deutsch ist aber ganz einfach :P
11:10:07 <Robert> Gar nicht!
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12:29:01 <Herkamire> Robert :) :)
12:29:07 <Herkamire> hate that.
12:29:11 <Robert> Hate what?
12:29:28 <Herkamire> I keep leaving my irc scrolled up, and then come back 10 minutes later and think somebody said something again
12:29:38 <Robert> Oh, hehe... yes
12:29:50 <Robert> Irssi... :)
12:30:04 <Herkamire> yep :)
12:30:46 <Herkamire> it would be nice if it gave some indication that you weren't at the bottom
12:31:46 <Herkamire> I thought you had said "Herkamire :)" again in an effort to further stimulate conversation ;)
12:32:30 <Robert> Haha, okay.
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14:06:05 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
14:06:05 --- topic: 'Interested in publishing an article on or about Forth? If so, we'd love to showcase it on a new #Forth portal site, at http://forth.bespin.org Contact thin or kc5tja via memoserv for details.'
14:06:05 --- topic: set by kc5tja on [Tue Aug 05 16:46:48 2003]
14:06:05 --- names: list (clog rO|_ Herkamire @ChanServ ian_p TreyB SDO Fractal ooo onetom Robert rk XeF4)
14:43:43 <rO|_> ack
14:43:46 <rO|_> thx
14:44:15 --- nick: rO|_ -> rO|
14:45:12 <rO|> appreciated.. :-)
14:52:14 <rO|> ok
14:52:27 <rO|> then
14:52:31 <rO|> howdy#
14:53:07 <rO|> all you sleepers?
14:53:49 <rO|> or@work?
14:56:32 <rO|> robert herkamire
14:56:58 <rO|> what is the "lord of the dance"?
14:59:01 <Robert> No idea.. I'm not the psycho, thin is.
15:00:10 <rO|> maybe it's advanced cryptic forth slang?
15:02:31 <Robert> :)
15:03:40 <rO|> aha you know more ;-)
15:09:12 <rO|> how much kilometres do you think one can get w/ a normal wlan plus *special*(targeted etc) antennas?
15:09:33 <Robert> Hehe! We're actually going to experiment with that here.
15:09:44 <Robert> So that we can have a LAN party on a nearby hill.
15:09:55 <rO|> who where oO
15:10:07 <Robert> I, and some friends. :)
15:10:11 <rO|> cool :-)
15:10:17 <Robert> The hill is maybe 500-1000 meters from my house.
15:10:35 <rO|> that should work
15:11:50 <rO|> are sat antennas adequate?
15:12:48 <Robert> Probably not, unless your sattelites work on the WLAN frequencies. :P
15:13:09 <rO|> lol
15:13:10 <Robert> But people have built antennas with just pringles bars. 
15:13:20 <Robert> And other simple things.
15:15:09 <rO|> someone told me he built a wlan bridging two schools
15:15:18 <Robert> Hehe, nice.
15:15:43 <Robert> My old school is about 100 meters from my old one, btw.
15:15:44 <rO|> w/ targetted sat antennas, everything standard equip
15:16:40 <rO|> but probably i mixed 300 m w/ 3000 metres(dsl specific)
15:17:42 <rO|> so, not sure if 500 -1000 m will work like that
15:18:22 <rO|> my wlan router says 30 m..
15:28:49 <rO|> Robert: will you tell us how it worked then?
15:32:47 <Robert> If it works - sure!
15:33:03 <rO|> thx
15:33:09 <rO|> ok cya
15:35:19 <Robert> :)
15:35:20 <Robert> BYe.
15:41:31 <rk> Robert: what would be a decent return stack depth
15:41:33 <rk> ?
15:50:15 <Robert> Depends on the application.
15:50:18 <Robert> And how much you have. :)
15:50:25 <Robert> (memory, that is)
15:51:01 <Robert> I mean, on a PC you can waste memory like if you had an infinite amount of it - one way is using 4kB stack.
15:51:16 <Robert> But on an AVR, you maybe prefer to make it.. say, 16 bytes deep.
15:52:58 <rk> Robert: well, what would be a good default size for a portable Forth
15:55:17 <Robert> Depends on what you'll port it to.
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15:58:17 <rk> Robert: anything. PC, MAC, PS2, whatever :
15:58:33 <Robert> Then you can have quite a large stack.
15:58:57 <Robert> Don't waste memory, but you don't have to count every byte either. 16 cells should be more than enough.
15:59:23 <rk> Robert: 64bytes or stack ... maybe it could be alloted to more when needed
16:05:12 <Robert> When would you need more? :)
16:05:22 <Robert> Except at a CS class teaching recursion...
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17:30:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:30:34 <gilbertdeb> aloha
17:30:56 <TheBlueWizard> aloha? you now living in Hawai'i?
17:31:27 <gilbertdeb> Not even close.
17:31:30 <gilbertdeb> miami.
17:31:39 <gilbertdeb> we don't have a greeting.
17:31:44 <gilbertdeb> maybe hola?
17:32:08 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
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17:33:56 <TheBlueWizard> hiya skylan
17:34:19 <gilbertdeb> shhh. he's hunting wabbits.
17:35:20 <skylan> Yay!  It's the wonderful blue wizard!
17:35:26 <TheBlueWizard> oh?
17:35:48 <TheBlueWizard> Yay! It's the wonderful sky lan!
17:39:46 <skylan> I'm magical.
17:40:03 <skylan> I wish I could control time.
17:40:12 <skylan> Then I'd be so much more happierest.
17:41:31 <TheBlueWizard> Hehe...temporal regulation is indeed highly desirable.  But we can't, at least not in this meatspace
17:42:44 <gilbertdeb> skylan what would you do once you control time?
17:44:13 <TheBlueWizard> that'd be easy to answer...go back to early 70's, assassinate Bill Gates, promote Charles Moore's work, whatever :)))
17:45:09 <gilbertdeb> har har har.
17:46:54 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye all
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17:47:46 <skylan> Actually, I'd just rather stop relative time and thus be able to catch up on all the things that I've on my list of "Things to Do/Study/Read/Make/Break"
17:48:17 <skylan> I don't really care abotu going back in time; making time slow down is far more appealing.
17:48:18 <gilbertdeb> stop growing the list then!
17:48:27 <gilbertdeb> you can 'stop' the list and catch up with it <hint>
17:48:48 <skylan> This is avoiding the fact that I now control time.
17:48:52 <skylan> I have infinite time to catch up to my list :p
17:49:03 <gilbertdeb> mhmmm
17:49:44 <skylan> Darnit!  I do!
17:53:11 <gilbertdeb> yes. You do.
17:53:17 <gilbertdeb> You also created the universe.
17:53:32 <skylan> Ooooooh, k-rad!
18:34:38 <lopedevega> i would slow down other's perception of time, so as to have more time for completing projects and deliver
18:35:28 <lopedevega> i would go 40 minutes ago in time to write this line right after yours :-)
18:36:48 <lopedevega> but i imagine going back in time isn't possible. If it were, some of the people I've met all over my lifetime, should've been back time travellers
18:37:00 <lopedevega> from my future
18:37:08 <lopedevega> even after my own death
18:38:15 <lopedevega> and those suposed time travellers, could have showed up, and tell me about their condition.
18:38:33 <lopedevega> but that has never hapenned
18:39:10 <gilbertdeb> tiiiime travel.
18:39:23 <gilbertdeb> we do it all the time. the persistence of memories etc ;)
18:40:04 <lopedevega> yeah, that aspect of time
18:40:05 <gilbertdeb> only flaw is we can never go back to places we hadn't been to.
18:40:13 <lopedevega> yeap
18:40:50 <lopedevega> do you find any flaw in the "proof" I wrote ?
18:43:14 <lopedevega> I guess that a possible flaw is that if anyone told me he was a traveller from the future, my culture wouldn't have admitted his truth
18:43:45 <lopedevega> I would have thought he was lying or plain nuts
18:44:28 <lopedevega> and if I believed him, nobody would have believed me, or thought I've nuts
18:45:53 <lopedevega> but my reasoning has a lot of "psicological" sides mixed with "phisics" sides. 
18:46:39 <gilbertdeb> if you met a time traveler, you'd think he were nuts.
18:46:44 <lopedevega> Maybe in quantum physics, time travel is possible, only that no one will be there to tell the story
18:46:50 <lopedevega> yup
18:46:55 <gilbertdeb> if i met a time traveller, I'd try not to ask him about the future.
18:46:59 <gilbertdeb> I really don't wanna know now :D
18:47:08 <lopedevega> that's another point
18:47:21 <lopedevega> I mean another one from a long list :)
18:48:33 <lopedevega> I'd ask him for a copy of th best programming language available then, and for a back port to today's machines
18:50:16 <lopedevega> then I could claim prior art to it :-P just imagine the chaos
18:50:51 <gilbertdeb> :)
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18:51:58 <thin> remember everyone, forth is k-rad!
18:52:57 <thin> and edible
18:53:10 <thin> the first edible programming language!
18:53:15 <lopedevega> :)
18:53:22 <thin> forth has a shit load of firsts!
18:53:42 <thin> the first concatenative programming language, the first color programming language, and now... the first edible programming language!
18:54:22 <gilbertdeb> edible?
18:54:27 <thin> yeah!
18:54:29 <gilbertdeb> what on earth are you talking about?
18:54:50 <thin> ah ha, you are slow to pick up on the new paradigm
18:54:50 <gilbertdeb> <skylan> Ooooooh, k-rad!
18:55:02 <gilbertdeb> its not on topic.
18:55:07 <thin> yeah k-rad is a script kiddie word
18:55:19 <thin> hey, i'm not on topic
18:55:32 <gilbertdeb> as in, k-rad edible.
18:55:35 <thin> no
18:55:41 <gilbertdeb> what do you mean by edible???
18:55:42 <thin> nah, they're not related words
18:55:43 <gilbertdeb> url?
18:56:00 <gilbertdeb> yes they are, if you say it quickly enough it'd sound like another word.
18:56:06 <gilbertdeb> forth is k-rad edible
18:56:32 <thin> damn! that's leet
18:56:49 <gilbertdeb> so what is this edible aspect you're referring to?
18:56:49 <thin> how'd you find out?
18:56:53 <gilbertdeb> find out about what?
18:57:03 <thin> it's the next paradigm mann! 
18:57:07 <gilbertdeb> url???
18:57:13 <thin> first concatenative, then colorforth, then now, edible!!!
18:57:17 <thin> no url mann
18:57:19 <thin> it's new
18:57:23 <gilbertdeb> who came up with it?
18:57:35 <thin> heheh
18:57:40 <thin> i'm joking
18:57:42 <gilbertdeb> Yeah.
18:57:52 <thin> you know what edible means right?
18:57:57 <gilbertdeb> yes i do.
18:58:09 <thin> well i'm not sure how to make forth edible..
18:58:14 <thin> that would be quite tricky
18:58:31 <gilbertdeb> aren't reflective languages in a way edible?
18:58:38 <gilbertdeb> they EAT their sources ;)
18:58:46 <lopedevega> what would you eat? the interpreter/compiler? your own code? 
18:58:55 <thin> and take a big smelly poop!
18:59:25 <lopedevega> perl slurps files with the <> operator
18:59:26 <thin> : .  BOWEL-MOVEMENT ;
18:59:45 <lopedevega> just like italian spaghetti
19:00:18 <thin> whats the difference with canadian spaghetti and italian spaghetti?
19:01:57 <thin> hey, have i told you guys about the joke about a forther and his encounter with a slurpee machine?
19:02:11 <skylan> The wheat might be one guess.
19:02:46 <gilbertdeb> this can't be good!
19:03:08 <thin> skylan: it's good to hear someone say k-rad, its been awhile since i've heard that :)
19:04:47 <skylan> Hehehe, that's --- okay :)
19:05:20 <skylan> I was trying to make people leery of a script-kiddie god.
19:09:13 <thin> nah, script kiddies wouldn't say k-rad nowadays, only hackers (in terms of having knowledge of hacker lore) would say it..
19:11:14 <skylan> Such a turn of events.. *shakes head sadly*
19:11:52 * fridge .oO Back in the day...
19:12:08 <thin> no no, i don't mean the cracker hackers, i just mean hackers who mock the script kiddies..
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19:16:24 <thin> what kind of equipment do you need for a wlan ?
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19:43:41 <rk> "ANS Forth specifies a minimum of 32 cells of Parameter Stack and 24 cells of Return Stack; I prefer 64 cells of each" <-- interesting.
19:45:19 <kc5tja> ?
19:47:40 <kc5tja> Who wrote that?
20:18:25 <TreyB> Sometimes it makes more sense for a particular platform to have a large number of cells available.  On x86, you don't really gain anything by having less than a page worth of cells, and allocating 3 pages of virtual memory for each stack with a guard page at the top and bottom might prove helpful in debugging.
20:19:11 <kc5tja> In FS/Forth, I'm going to pack both stacks into a single stack.
20:19:21 <kc5tja> (Linux version at least)
20:19:42 <TreyB> s/single stack/single page/ ?
20:20:28 <kc5tja> Data stack with page offsets 000h-7FFh, and return stack with page offsets 800h to FFFh.
20:20:35 <kc5tja> So both fit in a single page.
20:20:54 <TreyB> Right.
20:22:18 <TreyB> The only reason I wouldn't do that for Linux would involve calls to C libraries.  They'll consume considerably more return stack.
20:22:31 <TreyB> One could work around that, though.
20:22:37 <kc5tja> Good point.  Maybe I should reverse the order.
20:22:49 <kc5tja> So that the data stack is finite, but the return stack is effectively infinite.
20:23:06 <TreyB> Yes.  I had a similar layout planned for x86.
20:24:14 <kc5tja> Thanks for the tip.  I probably wouldn't have caught that, especially since I am intending on making Linux system and library calls.
20:25:23 <TreyB> No Problem (tm)
20:47:46 <gilbertdeb> pretty cool huh? -> http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=221
20:51:42 <kc5tja> Neat.
20:51:48 <kc5tja> Too bad Go isn't so easily solved.  :)
20:52:51 <gilbertdeb> :)
21:09:18 <gilbertdeb> typically, no prices are listed.
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22:18:20 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
22:18:26 <uuter> hello
22:20:53 <Serg_Penguin> i am slain by fu....g anti-spammers ;(((((((
22:21:12 <ian_p> why?
22:21:48 <Serg_Penguin> my IP is marked as 'open relay' at relays.osirusoft.com, and my SMTP refuses to send my mail because of this
22:22:15 <Serg_Penguin> why ? doG knows !
22:22:58 <Serg_Penguin> i was running SMTP server in test-drive mode a while ago
22:23:32 <Serg_Penguin> maybe, it was really open relay, but it was so just a few hours
22:25:00 <fridge> yeah, it doesn't take long does it
22:25:11 <Serg_Penguin> the worst fing, relays.osirusoft.com is almost unreacheble
22:25:13 <uuter> can you get a new IP DHCP lease?
22:25:16 <fridge> I had a misconfigured file for 15 minutes and spammers starting using it
22:25:23 <fridge> luckily not enough to get blacklisted though
22:25:46 <Serg_Penguin> i filled a 'recheck me' form, but TON OF SHIT !!!! 
22:26:04 <Serg_Penguin> 'server error 500, contact root@localhost' :((((((((
22:26:07 <Serg_Penguin> LAMERS !!!!
22:26:37 <uuter> can you get a new IP from your ISP?
22:27:45 <Serg_Penguin> no ! we have 5 IP's hardvired
22:28:17 <Serg_Penguin> luckyly, the blocked one belongs to my box only, not gateway
22:28:27 <Serg_Penguin> so the trouble does not hit company
22:28:43 <uuter> that sucks
22:28:47 <Serg_Penguin> otherwise, i would be six feet deep in asshole
22:29:36 <Serg_Penguin> the damn contact form does not even open ;(((((((
22:30:08 <Serg_Penguin> i wanna write complain to their uplink and registrar to excommunicate them
22:30:23 <uuter> hmm~
22:30:42 <Serg_Penguin> maybe, one complain won't help, but if uplink/regger will get tons of complains......
22:31:06 <uuter> your ISP probably scans your IP to see if you are running http/smtp servers
22:31:12 <Serg_Penguin> i really wanna add to that ton ;(((((
22:31:28 <Serg_Penguin> i run SMTP only for inner net
22:31:34 <uuter> mabye if you contact them and tell them that you are not a spam relay
22:31:38 <uuter> oh
22:31:48 <Serg_Penguin> none of my boxes have open 25
22:31:50 <uuter> so you are a corperate user?
22:31:55 <Serg_Penguin> yes !
22:32:18 <uuter> they probably don't scan in that case
22:33:09 <Serg_Penguin> so what da hell may i do to get unblocked ???
22:34:08 <uuter> contact your ISP i guess
22:34:56 <Serg_Penguin> no, ISP ok by now, free mail reported blockage
22:35:14 <Serg_Penguin> i now send via ISP
22:35:38 <Serg_Penguin> but what if mail from this ip would be blocked somethere on the way ?
22:35:48 <rk> my question: What would be the best way to handle a C Forth?
22:36:08 <uuter> write a Forth in C?
22:36:25 <uuter> pForth might help
22:37:08 <rk> uuter: well, i looked, and i dont know where to start looking :P
22:37:15 <rk> uuter: its > 30 files
22:37:38 <uuter> yeah, im not a fan of Forth in C
22:37:45 <uuter> asm is the way to go
22:38:19 <Serg_Penguin> uuter: FORTH itself is the way to go
22:38:24 <uuter> yeah
22:38:30 <uuter> but strap it
22:38:30 <rk> uuter: yeah. but i gotta create a C one (and an asm one).
22:38:36 <uuter> minimal kernel
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22:38:48 <Serg_Penguin> any language what can't compile it's compiler is mega sucking
22:39:24 <rk> my question is to pretend we are asm, and do itc or whateer, or just do it the lame C way (htable, linked list, etc.). I was thinking of a mixture of both, but i wanted to make sure that would be a good idea :).
22:39:31 <uuter> you could write a minimal kernel in C, and then re-write it in Forth, and use the C kernel to compile it
22:40:03 <rk> uuter: i only want to make a very minimal, and build upon that
22:40:35 <uuter> if you write the text interpreter, and get it so it can compile CODE and or colon definitions, that would be great
22:40:58 <uuter> the most of CORE can be normal Forth code
22:41:10 <rk> i need to get that far first :P
22:41:23 <rk> and i also need to decide what should be 4th and what not
22:41:27 <uuter> i would totally recomend writing it in asm
22:41:39 <rk> uuter: itll be both, but C needs to go first
22:41:48 <uuter> comparative?
22:42:13 <uuter> or a client wants C code?
22:42:54 <rk> uuter: actually, it is intended for a portable Forth, which also will eventually provide asm (for speed) for certain platforms. However, the goal is portability, so the C kernel has to be priority
22:43:36 <uuter> what about some sort of META compiler?
22:43:53 <uuter> this is targeting windows I assume?
22:45:15 <rk> uuter: well, actually, everything. once i got access to linux, i will do linux as well. basically, everything :P
22:45:25 <rk> (access to it again)
22:45:44 <uuter> seems pretty ambisious
22:45:51 <uuter> have you written a Forth before?
22:45:56 <rk> nope. 
22:46:07 <rk> this is kind of a challenge actualyl
22:46:19 <rk> but i want it to be long-term for others to use as well
22:46:20 <uuter> indeed
22:46:54 <uuter> you can port asm code across most of the x86 OS range
22:47:16 <rk> uuter: i intended to write a core, and a osdep asm file
22:47:35 <rk> so, i/o words are part of osdep.s while the core is core.s
22:47:37 <rk> :)
22:47:38 <uuter> well, look at the beast that gForth is
22:48:53 <rk> eh
22:49:06 <rk> i tried compiling ... lots of source
22:49:11 <rk> pforth is tiny compared to it
23:36:36 <kc5tja> What I love are when people claim that things like hash tables, linked lists, et. al. are the "lame C way" of implementing a Forth.
23:36:47 <kc5tja> Yet, these are precisely the most prevalent methods for implementing an asm Forth.
23:38:19 <rk> kc5tja: i was actually joking about it
23:38:58 <kc5tja> It pains me to see how many people advocate writing a Forth in assembly language instead of C, because of the failures of individual programmers (instead of the language).
23:39:53 <kc5tja> Admittedly, a Forth written in C is limited to call-threading (which is slower than direct threading, but marginally).  It otherwise should behave exactly as any other asm-coded Forth should; C is a high-level assembler, after all.
23:40:46 <kc5tja> If extreme portability is desired more than performance, a Forth written in C is certainly a plausible solution, especially where portability between x86 and PowerPC or other processor architectures are concerned.
23:41:04 <rk> kc5tja: portability is my main concern. 
23:41:06 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: but what about recompiling itself ?
23:41:36 <Serg_Penguin> it shows what language/implementation is SERIOUS, not a TOY
23:41:42 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: "Goedel proved that within any complete system, you cannot describe it in itself."  Chuck Moore
23:41:54 <kc5tja> IOW, forget metacompilability.  It's 'nice to have,' but it is not required.
23:42:17 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: Also, you are patently incorrect about your serious/toy distinction.
23:42:26 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: Python cannot compile itself, nor can Perl.
23:42:45 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: Yet, these languages are in use in thousands of enterprise-class applications every day -- not something you want to trust to a "toy."
23:43:12 <kc5tja> Ditto for Smalltalk, now that I think about it.
23:44:15 * kc5tja notes that he's writing FS/Forth in GForth to start with, not FS/Forth.  :)
23:44:59 <rk> :P
23:45:06 <rk> kc5tja: you're making a forth too?
23:45:31 <kc5tja> More or less, yes.
23:45:45 <kc5tja> I'm actually upgrading an older design to a modern 32-bit environment.
23:45:56 <kc5tja> (which, for Forth, means I'm starting over from scratch)
23:46:13 <kc5tja> But FS/Forth is a Forth I used back when I was a teenager, and had a company called Falvosoft (hence the FS prefix).
23:46:39 <kc5tja> My modern company's name is Falvo Technical Solutions, and its subsidiary, Falvo Software Solutions.  Hence, the FS moniker still works.  :)
23:47:28 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: is your FS/Forth commercial or open ?
23:48:11 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: It used to be strictly private.  The DOS compiler is currently open source.  The Linux version will be made open source once I am happy with it.
23:48:33 <kc5tja> The DOS and Linux compilers are not compatible with each other.
23:48:49 <Serg_Penguin> so, you do not distribute, nor free neither for money ?
23:49:45 <kc5tja> The 1.0 and 1.1 versions were strictly private; neither for sale nor openly distributed.
23:50:18 <kc5tja> I believe version 1.3 is open for download on the forth.bespin.org site.
23:50:51 <Serg_Penguin> ok, ok
23:51:02 <kc5tja> The Linux version will be version 2.0.  When complete, it'll also be distributed open source.
23:51:08 <kc5tja> (zlib license)
23:51:25 <kc5tja> I will upgrade the DOS version to 2.0 pending demand for it.
23:52:08 <Serg_Penguin> what do u think, what minimal word set may and should be implemented in C Forth core ?
23:52:11 <kc5tja> But of late, I haven't had much time to work on any of my personal projects.
23:53:56 <kc5tja> My minimum core wordset is strictly what's required to get the kernel to compile, plus a bit of user convenience words if I can throw them in with little cost of complexity.
23:54:35 <Serg_Penguin> i think, KEY EMIT ! @ C! C@ BRANCH ?BRANCH ... what else ? any article on this ?
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23:54:57 <kc5tja> So that'd include some minimum compliment of basic primitives, plus the core compiler (, C, HERE ALLOT and friends), plus support for FORTH and COMPILER words.
23:55:28 <kc5tja> No, because one isn't possible.
23:55:45 <kc5tja> The minimum compliment of words really, truely, honestly does depend precisely on what you want to do with your kernel.
23:56:26 <Serg_Penguin> : , here @ ! here 1+! ;
23:57:01 <kc5tja> , needs to be intrinsic, because it actually populates the code space.
23:57:10 <kc5tja> The definition of ':' depends on , to work.
23:57:50 <kc5tja> If you have , C, HERE and ALLOT, and you know the dictionary format in memory, you really don't need : to be integrated into the kernel (you could conceivably compile definitions without it).
23:57:59 <kc5tja> But I'm not that sadistic.  :)
23:58:27 <kc5tja> Also from Chuck Moore: Forth isn't about total software simplicity.  It's about total system simplicity.
23:59:17 <kc5tja> The system is more than just raw software; it necessarily takes the user into consideration, it takes the underlying OS environment into consideration (if one exists), it takes any available hardware resources into consideration, etc.
23:59:41 <Serg_Penguin> why not compile by external ':' ?
23:59:57 <kc5tja> I do not understand your question.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.19