00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.18
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02:24:08 <snowrichard> hello
02:24:33 <snowrichard> I have been wrestling with this computer for hours trying to get sound to work but it turns out it is too anemic.  
02:28:56 <Robert> i
02:28:58 <Robert> er
02:28:58 <Robert> Hi
02:35:07 <snowrichard> oh hello.
02:35:17 * Robert just woke up
02:35:27 <snowrichard> I should have been asleep by now :) 
02:35:50 <Robert> I should have woke up several hours ago... oh, well. Better late than never.
02:36:36 <snowrichard> the only sound I could get out of xmms on this Optiplex GXMT 5200 computer was a few seconds of play, pause, play. ....
02:37:07 <snowrichard> and that was from the hard drive
02:37:39 <Robert> Haha, okay.. 
02:37:47 <snowrichard> like I said its anemic
02:37:48 * Robert launches xmms
02:38:36 <snowrichard> I think its like 33mhz or something
02:39:30 <snowrichard> updated my michael page. small bug fix
02:39:46 <Robert> Okay, this ultra-fast pentium 200MHz computer runs fine with xmms
02:40:09 <snowrichard> well I have a 350 Pii sitting here next to this one but I don't have modem driver for it yet
02:40:48 <Robert> Hehe, I also got a computer in that class next to me, but I only use it when I need to run Windows software. It's noisy and generates lots of heat..
02:41:05 <snowrichard> sold my vaxes
02:41:31 <snowrichard> and my amd
02:42:19 <snowrichard> this is one is Mom's
02:42:26 <Robert> :(
02:42:50 <Robert> I don't even have anything to sell... most of not all computers are more or less antique
02:42:50 <snowrichard> divorce ...
02:44:18 <snowrichard> the vaxes basically antique too, but gave them back to guy who gave them to me actually
02:45:11 <snowrichard> if I get more old computers they will be sparcs
02:47:54 <snowrichard> printing out the michael listing on an Epson Stylus inkjet..... takes days..
02:49:13 <snowrichard> well not really. :P
02:50:00 <Robert> My only printer is some old Star matrix printer I got with an amiga 500 a few years ago.
02:50:21 <snowrichard> my favorite old printer was a Digital Decwriter
02:50:24 <Robert> But it works fine with all of my computers, even a strange system designed only for swedish schools.
02:50:43 <snowrichard> bought it for $5.00 in a thrift store
02:51:16 <Robert> Hehe...
02:51:19 <snowrichard> left it in Houston hooked up to a VAX at work
02:52:02 <snowrichard> the oddest type of printing thing was a Magnetic card Selectric
02:52:24 <snowrichard> (really primitive word processor from IBM)
02:55:49 <snowrichard> I bought a Lexmark recently but the linux drivers sucked never got to work right.  gave it to my sister to use with Windows
02:57:07 <snowrichard> prints nice photos from my digital camera which also doesn't work with linux. 
03:02:15 <snowrichard> don't believe it... finally finished printing... 20 page listing
03:02:41 <Robert> Heh.
03:02:46 <Robert> Is it THAT slow?
03:03:13 <snowrichard> very nice quality I think it could be faster in draft mode
03:03:43 <snowrichard> printing postscript from mozilla though
03:04:21 <snowrichard> its the code for Michael
03:04:56 <snowrichard> I need smoke break brb
03:05:21 <snowrichard> have to go outside here this is my mom's store
03:05:58 * Robert avoids problems by not smoking (tobacco)
03:09:11 <snowrichard> I did quit for a week but I was locked up in a mental ward :) 
03:09:43 <snowrichard> will quit again after this divorce gets files
03:09:46 <snowrichard> filed
03:10:44 <Robert> My parents recently started smoking after a 10 year (!) break.
03:11:05 <snowrichard> after 10 year not smoking started again?
03:11:41 <snowrichard> I have heard about someone stuck on a desert island that did something like that after he was rescued :) 
03:15:44 <snowrichard> well at least I have hard copy of the michael code now
03:17:06 <snowrichard> my clock is way off
03:19:54 <snowrichard> a little closer now
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03:26:36 <ma]> ooo is executing out of order?
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04:52:05 <Robert> Hi
04:52:43 <Serg_Penguin> hi-y-ya !
04:55:06 <Serg_Penguin> howdy ?
04:55:18 <Robert> Fine, fine :)
04:55:22 <Robert> And over there?
04:55:28 <Serg_Penguin> ?
04:56:59 <Robert> How are things?
05:01:01 <rO|> hi Robert. was on a field day camp? ;-)
05:01:19 <Robert> Forth Field Day!
05:01:28 <Robert> Not quite... vacation with family
05:01:38 <rO|> hey why not
05:02:24 <rO|> when is your license exam? ;-)
05:02:50 <Robert> Forth or radio?
05:02:57 <rO|> haha
05:02:59 <Robert> Stupid question? :P  I don't know
05:03:12 <Robert> Maybe sometime this fall.
05:04:15 <rO|> you start w/ the small or go straight for the biggest license?
05:05:20 <Robert> The big one. :P
05:05:57 <rO|> interested in packet/digital?
05:07:53 <Robert> Yes, that seems pretty interesting
05:10:00 <rO|> eg. modifying the ipaq's gprms jacket a bit..? :P
05:10:31 <Robert> More like trying to make a simple 100bps-link to the neighbour.
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05:15:44 <rO|> that wouldn't take a license, or?
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05:18:28 <Robert> rO|: Hmm... since I'd need like 100W to do it, with my skills, it would :P
05:18:32 <Robert> Hi ooo
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11:39:16 * Herkamire now has business cards.
11:39:23 <Herkamire> yay :)
11:40:04 <Forther> hello
11:41:32 <Herkamire> hi forther :)
11:45:32 <rO|> those knx minicds are also nice as business cards :-)
11:45:45 <rO|> re Herkarmire
11:46:29 <rO|> in big business yet? haven't seen you here a while..
11:51:29 <Herkamire> rO| not since I got my business cards 40 minutes ago ;)
11:52:28 <rO|> :-)
11:53:16 <rO|> congratulations, then ;-)
11:53:33 <rO|> your site is up?
11:53:53 <Herkamire> herkamire.com
11:53:59 <Herkamire> I have three small clients
11:54:28 <rO|> what is small for you?
11:54:54 <Herkamire> 200/year hosting and _very_ occational hourly work
11:57:02 <rO|> i like the logo artwork, your own?
12:02:51 <Herkamire> rO|: yes :) thanks
12:03:03 <Forther> Herkamire, hello ;)
12:03:14 <Herkamire> hi Forther  :)
12:03:26 <Herkamire> rO|: it took me a looong time and I'm very happy with it :)
12:03:29 <Forther> Herkamire, do you have your cards online, virtual photos too?
12:03:48 <Herkamire> Forther: no, just my site: http://herkamire.com/
12:04:51 <Forther> what is your backbone made of, besides bone, like OC3/12?
12:05:39 <Forther> It is hosted in Long Island where it is connected to 3 major internet backbones.
12:05:55 <Forther> MCI, Sprint and who?
12:06:04 <Forther>  :)  UUNET, is UUNET been sucked up by someone?
12:06:50 <Herkamire> Verizon, Keyspan and Lightpath
12:07:01 <Forther> Do you have T1 to them, x3?
12:07:25 <Forther> Or do you share say a fractional frame to each all the time.
12:07:47 <Herkamire> I pay a guy in long island to take care of all that. he has my computer on a 100 Base-T ethernet network
12:08:04 <Forther> Ah, so you colocate and subout the costs :)
12:08:07 <Forther> middleman!
12:08:09 <Forther> LOL :)
12:08:49 <Forther> How is the business going?
12:10:06 <Herkamire> fine. I haven't done any advertising yet. just getting started
12:10:36 <Forther> neat, how many customers have you signed up?
12:10:45 <Herkamire> Now that I have business cards in my pocket I'm going to make more of an effort to talk to people about it and hand them out
12:10:46 <Forther> I used to open and run ISPs, I'm curious to the business landscape today.
12:10:51 <Forther> ah.
12:11:02 <Forther> yah, it is nice to hand someone something they can look at later.
12:11:07 <Herkamire> I have three just from word of mouth through my family :)
12:11:14 <Forther> MLM :)
12:11:28 <Forther> hehehe, MCI would be proud, friedns and family members :)
12:11:35 <Herkamire> mlm? maling list manager?
12:11:42 <Forther> Multilevel Marketing :)
12:11:48 <Herkamire> right :)
12:11:52 <Forther> lol
12:12:01 <Forther> Spamway!
12:12:05 <Herkamire> I thought about that a little, but I haven't taken it seriously :)
12:12:14 <Forther> I did MLM fulltime for 7 years.
12:12:17 <Forther> I loved it!
12:12:23 <Forther> Hard ass work though.
12:12:23 <Herkamire> something like "if you get me 3 hosting clients your site hosting is free"
12:12:34 <Forther> I would say 5 or 10
12:12:42 <Forther> they will stop at 3 and not bring any more.
12:12:50 <Forther> Plus the overhead of that will be prohibitive.
12:12:55 <Forther> LOL, at least IMHO.
12:13:15 <Forther> I used to give somebody a 5 buck credit for a referrel that stuck for 6+ months.
12:13:25 <Forther> The idea is not to give people stuff, it is to make them work for it :)
12:13:36 <Forther> welcome to capitalism.
12:13:48 <Herkamire> Wheeee!
12:14:01 <Forther> I think the formal definition of capitalism is 'bend the consumer over, make them broke enough to stay, nad not wealthy enough to leave'
12:14:17 <Herkamire> not my style really
12:14:26 <Forther> ya, but we all live it each and every day.
12:14:37 <Forther> either we are bending or being bent.
12:14:41 <Herkamire> well, that's partly why I'm starting my own business.
12:14:55 <Forther> I believe that is why most people start their own business.
12:14:55 <Herkamire> I want to do something ethical and good for the world/people.
12:14:58 <Forther> I did, and loved it.
12:15:03 <Forther> Herkamire, that is cool!
12:15:09 <Forther> Tree hugger Herkamire!
12:15:15 <Herkamire> :)
12:15:25 <Forther> Just clean up and pack out your trash.
12:16:07 <Herkamire> I won't put this on my business page, but I just put it at the top of my programming projects page:
12:16:18 <Herkamire> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable." &nbsp;&nbsp;-- George Bernard Shaw
12:16:52 <Forther> Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
12:16:55 <Forther> - Me.
12:17:00 <Herkamire> My stratagy is to provide people with such good service that they reccomend me to their friends.
12:17:12 <Herkamire> Forther: you didn't make that up
12:17:17 <Forther> Herkamire, I know.
12:17:19 <Herkamire> good quote though
12:17:20 <Forther> I was joking, but I say it.
12:17:34 <Forther> I don't think GBS made up that quote you said either :)
12:17:51 <Forther> I doubt anyone made up anything they have said, only in their minds.
12:17:56 <Herkamire> that's in Think and Grow Rich? or maybe some other book
12:18:00 <Forther> Yes.
12:18:07 <Forther> I have read TGR about 200+ times in the past 8 years.
12:18:14 <Forther> Keep on Keepin' On!
12:18:22 <Forther> Hill was a very interesting capitalist theorist.
12:18:37 <Herkamire> that quote is attributed to GBS in The Humane Interface
12:19:27 <Forther> My point really is that we don't invent anything really, there are synergistic and creative thinkers.  Like 97-98 of us are synergistic, and the rest are creative.  I doubt many people I have had the pleasure to talk to are creative.  I wouldn't put Einstein in creative either.
12:20:02 <Forther> At least not regarding his theories, he stole them from 7 other scientistic models and shuffled the deck :)
12:20:12 <Herkamire> "Just because your head is pointy, doesn't mean you're sharp."
12:20:14 <Forther> At least thats what some other synergistic thinkers have told me to think.
12:20:20 <Herkamire> ok, I'll close my quotes file
12:20:26 <Forther> Herkamire, :)
12:20:57 <Herkamire> I opened it to see if it had your quote about insanity, but it only had "insanity" in: "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
12:21:30 <Forther> Good, put it in for 'Me' as the inventor.
12:22:01 <Forther> Herkamire, do you have TGR online? in PDF or in .txt?
12:22:05 <Forther> Or some other readable format?
12:22:27 <Forther> I have it in audio spoken by Napolean Hill on tape, and in MP3.
12:22:46 <Forther> Hey, if you really want a kick to read or listen, get Lead the Field, that one is amazing.
12:22:47 <Herkamire> my sister lent me the paperback last year.
12:23:04 <Forther> Yah, I bought like 200+ copies of it and handed it to many of my sales team in the 90s.
12:23:28 <Forther> Herkamire, sure I can put the mp3s up on line and let you suck at the nipple of piracy! :)
12:23:42 <Forther> hehehehe, dude, RIAA is not to be feared.
12:24:09 <Forther> denial is the first and only thing you have to do, remember clinton is free cause of it and he eventually admitted lying under oath.
12:24:23 <Forther> Gotta love the system here in America.
12:24:31 <Forther> Power to the People Brother!
12:24:33 <Forther> :)
12:26:02 <Forther> actually I stand correcte.d
12:26:10 <Forther> I have the Lead tthe Field CD mp3s here with me now.
12:26:36 <Forther> The TNG stuff can be had on Kazaa I believe.  I yet to get them, but here in about 5 mins will be something just as good :)
12:28:47 <rO|> The sky is the limit
12:29:53 <rO|> Herkamire: ok then ;-)
12:31:00 <rO|> Herkamire: why can't i use the xhtml.xsd for entities?
12:31:11 <ian_p> 4TNG?
12:31:18 <Herkamire> rO|: what's xsd?
12:31:46 <rO|> xml scheme, replacement of .dtd's
12:32:31 <Herkamire> how would that improve on what I have?
12:33:58 <rO|> for webstores eg. xml can be useful
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12:39:42 <rO|> more even for asymmetric data served
12:41:31 <ian_p> good for hierarchecal data representation
12:42:27 <Herkamire> what's asymmetric data?
12:42:51 <rO|> ian_p: that's more precise, yes
12:44:20 <Forther> Herkamire
12:44:24 <rO|> 2dimensional data = rows and columns = symmetric
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12:52:39 <Herkamire> ok.
12:52:59 <Herkamire> I don't have any hierarchical data though, except the structure of the site (how the pages link to eachother)
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12:53:43 <SDO> Herkamire, all is good?
12:54:36 <rO|> Herkamire: how much power consumes your 1u rackserver?
12:54:42 <Herkamire> Forther: yes
12:56:29 <Herkamire> rO|: don't know. don't really care
12:56:47 * rO| looking for a rackserver taking not more than 100 watt
12:57:15 <Herkamire> probably not that little. my last one was real noisy
12:57:36 <rO|> thing is, should have fast ddram
12:58:37 <rO|> w/ sdram, seen some
12:59:18 <rO|> blades w/ ddram also
13:00:42 <Herkamire> you want just one right?
13:01:58 <rO|> not necessarily, depends
13:03:07 <rO|> for testing, right now, one is enough
13:05:22 <Herkamire> any chance a briQ would be useful? http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/briQ/server.shtml
13:05:44 <Herkamire> sorry here's a better link: http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/briQ/intro.shtml
13:05:56 <rO|> did i get you right, your server is a rented dedicated server?
13:05:58 <Herkamire> says "20-40 watts"
13:06:08 <rO|> hey thx
13:06:18 <Herkamire> no, I bought a server, and am paying for colo
13:06:41 <rO|> ic power included
13:08:13 <Herkamire> my monthly colo fee includes electricity
13:08:29 <Herkamire> (hence the "don't really care")
13:09:08 <rO|> yup
13:09:16 <Herkamire> I don't know much about it, but I think you can get 3 or 4U rackmount case, and put up to 8 briQs in it
13:10:10 <Herkamire> and they're not vulderable to most buffer overflow bugs because it's PPC
13:10:31 <Herkamire> very few viruses are written for PPC
13:12:06 <rO|> see, that's what i mean: it's low power, but. i don't think it's 168dimms have ddram speed. no ppc experience though..
13:13:03 <Herkamire> why do you need fast memory?
13:14:04 <Herkamire> says "Unbuffered PC-100 SDRAM" I don't know really what that means
13:14:15 <rO|> to my experience for *fat* application servers (like java djungels) sdram speed is not sufficient
13:14:37 <Herkamire> oh.
13:14:41 <Herkamire> good luck with java
13:14:44 <Herkamire> seems a waste
13:15:08 <Herkamire> is it realistic to expect low power computers to be really fast?
13:15:19 <rO|> well, i know what you mean..
13:15:31 <rO|> (about java)
13:16:10 <rO|> you can say the same about m$
13:17:10 <rO|> "it's a waste of time"
13:18:54 <rO|> getting more extreme, you could say this about everything besides your own forthOS ;-)
13:19:30 <Herkamire> m$ is a waste of time and money
13:19:49 <Herkamire> linux just wasts time :) :)
13:20:17 <rO|> Herkamire: "is it realistic..." that's exactly the q where i am atm..
13:20:18 <Herkamire> I find much more value in the time I waste with Linux :)
13:21:27 <Herkamire> rO|: you could have two briQs (or maybe three) and be within your power quota. that might be a viable solution, though I don't know your problem.
13:22:19 * Herkamire really really likes the idea of beaing able to buy a computer and stick it in his spare drive bay
13:24:36 <SDO> Herkamire, I like the idea of buying a computer and putting 30 of them into a rackmount
13:24:48 <SDO> system that is about the size of a Dell 6100/200 quad case.
13:26:09 <SDO> No viruses that I am aware of are written for the x86 BeOS, and NONE for the PPC BeOS.  Obscurity has its value.
13:26:28 <SDO> BTW, if you like IF, check out http://mirrors.dyndns.org/users.abac.com/MeriBird/TADS/index.html
13:29:47 <SDO> Herkamire, how is it coming along?
13:35:11 <TreyB> Ah, BeOS.  *sniff*
13:40:18 <Herkamire> is a PPC BeOS still available? (what would run on my G4)
13:42:23 <SDO> TreyB, hello!
13:42:46 <TreyB> Howdy SDO.
13:43:04 <SDO> Herkamire, you can get PPC BeOS as well as x86 BeOS.  The x86 I believe became the FreeBeOS release, and the PPC was only available in the R5 Pro package.
13:43:09 <SDO> I have both, many times :)
13:43:32 <SDO> It is worth using, I use it 100% of the time now, and porting more and more stuff that is current to it.  I have about 20 FORTHS running or downloaded to be built.
13:43:40 <SDO> http://beforth.dyndns.org
13:44:02 <SDO> a bit dated, I need to update it.  I have built 4-5 more in the past week.
13:44:09 <SDO> TreyB, you an old BeOS Hound?
13:44:17 <SDO> Your name sounds very very familiar.
13:44:31 <TreyB> It ought to.  I worked for Be.
13:44:31 <SDO> Herkamire, http://discworld.atuin.net/external/images/atuin.jpg :)
13:44:36 <SDO> That is what I thought.
13:44:39 <SDO> lol
13:45:10 <SDO> why you hanging around the forth channel, shouldn't you be at work at Apple, Google, QNX or one of the others :)
13:45:13 <SDO> hehehe
13:45:48 <SDO> or go online and bash the crap out of the BeShare morons.
13:45:57 <SDO> :)  Now that is fun, but not a challenge.
13:46:19 <TreyB> I work for PalmSource now.  I went over when Palm bought up the team/source.
13:46:25 <SDO> ah.
13:46:26 <SDO> yes.
13:46:31 <SDO> How many of you 50 or so are left at Palm?
13:46:42 <SDO> I heard steve quit/fired/canned a while ago.
13:46:52 <SDO> JLG is supposedly doing some investment stuff now?
13:47:14 <TreyB> Quite a few.  Sakoman left because he spent 3 weeks out of every month traveling and wanted to spend more time with the family.
13:47:22 <SDO> ah
13:47:30 <TreyB> He took a job at Apple.
13:47:31 <SDO> I can't say I blame him.
13:47:52 <TreyB> Yeah.  He likes Asia, but the travel wears on you.
13:47:55 <SDO> So, what can I deduce from you being into FORTH and PalmSource... Hmmmmmmmmm
13:48:01 <SDO> (so does SARS)
13:48:06 <TreyB> Nothing, unfortunately.
13:48:14 <SDO> bummer.
13:48:18 <SDO> oh well.
13:48:58 <SDO> TreyB, I have all kinds of questions to ask you, but heck I'll defer.  I'm morbidly interested in the setting up a ex-Be employee wiki or such for people to go and tell their stories at Be Inc.
13:49:15 <SDO> I heard there was an eX-Be mailing list.
13:49:26 <TreyB> I don't recognize you SuperDave.
13:49:41 <SDO> TreyB, LOL, I'm not an ex-Be employee.
13:49:49 <TreyB> So I gathered :-)
13:49:52 <SDO> But I have visited the offices a few times.
13:50:17 <SDO> I bet you're a hoot during Easter.
13:50:58 <SDO> anyway, nice talking to ya.  good luck on stuff at palm.
13:52:10 <TreyB> :-)
13:52:18 * TreyB prepares for a meeting.
13:52:32 <SDO> SDO prepares for a mid afternoon nappy.
13:53:17 <rO|> Herkamire: that briQ is interesting. clustered a little bit expensive though, i guess it's more for special cases :/
13:53:40 <SDO> like putting a super cluster into your trunk of a nova.
13:55:42 <rO|> SDO: so you maybe can answer that question? ;-)
13:56:40 <SDO> which question, I read back in the log and don't see you asking anything.  But maybe that was the point.  I know no answers, just blabbing around today, having fun on Monday!
13:57:02 <rO|> Herkamire: "is it realistic..." that's exactly the q where i am atm..
13:57:26 <SDO> ???  I'm not sure that is aquestion, is it?
13:57:34 <SDO> anyway, apparently I can't answer it.
13:58:38 <rO|> <Herkamire> is it realistic to expect low power computers to be really fast?
13:59:49 <rO|> 100mhz sdram vs 400+ mhz ddram eg.
14:17:53 <SDO> power consumption is not directly related to speed, always. :)
14:18:03 <SDO> Design has something to do with it as I recall.
14:18:23 <SDO> But heat blowing out of a dual g5 apple machine does impress the winter wonderland blues in us all.
14:18:41 <SDO> Herkamire, just checked out and logged in via telnet the Terry Pratchett Discworld online.
14:19:06 <SDO> Seems there is a lib for it, and clients as you say abound, have not found a BeOS client or a browser addon for beos yet.
14:19:37 <SDO> I did create a character, and looking online on Fleebay it seems that most of the books for Discworld are bought in AU and UK.  Meaning this must be big there, and not well known in the US.
14:23:32 <rO|> SDO: ack.
14:23:47 --- part: rO| left #forth
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14:25:59 <rO|> re thin
14:27:36 <thin> hey roi
14:27:42 <thin> roi = return on interest 
14:27:45 <thin> right? :P
14:28:05 --- part: thin left #forth
14:28:16 --- join: thin (thin@bespin.org) joined #forth
14:28:18 <thin> oops
14:28:29 <rO|> :-)
14:28:49 <rO|> almost.. ;-)
14:29:15 <thin> so what are you up to these days
14:29:30 <thin> do i know you by any other nicknames?
14:29:31 <rO|> but you're a sharp observer
14:30:06 <rO|> deluxe went out of stock..
14:30:18 <thin> ah
14:31:56 <thin> well.. i guess i'm back more or less
14:32:01 <thin> i now have some free time
14:32:17 <thin> so i guess i should get back to working on the #forth site..
14:32:24 <thin> it's still quite lame :P
14:32:29 <rO|> thin
14:32:45 <thin> yeah?
14:32:51 <rO|> have you seen map already?
14:33:01 <thin> took a quick look
14:33:13 <thin> but i don't understand what it's supposed to do
14:33:14 <rO|> ..?
14:33:29 <thin> i didn't read the content, only looked at the pretty pictures :P
14:33:36 <rO|> lol
14:34:11 <thin> you wanna tell me what it's for? why is it useful? :P
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14:34:43 <thin> wow, hi mrreach :)
14:34:50 <MrReach> hihi!
14:35:01 <thin> i just got on 5 mins ago after basically being gone for several months :P
14:35:21 <MrReach> heh, funny how that happens, eh? I haven't been here in some months myself
14:35:42 <thin> mrreach: i've got some free time now for the next few weeks, so i'm going to get back to working on the #forth site
14:35:48 <thin> yeah it's pretty funny how that happens
14:35:57 <thin> it's happened before several times..
14:36:00 <thin> weird
14:36:46 <MrReach> i was wondering how well I4's project was coming along
14:36:48 <thin> anyways when i build up the #forth site i'm going to be asking a number of the top forthers to join the forums and i'll beg them to try to be active ;)
14:36:56 <MrReach> he seems to have been offline for a while
14:37:04 <thin> and that includes you :P
14:37:12 <MrReach> *GASP*
14:37:50 <thin> i want the forums to be the biggest feature of the site, so it's gotta be active :)
14:38:16 <MrReach> this is at bespin?
14:38:25 <thin> hopefully by september i'll have the site humming along and i'll be bugging all the forthers to get on the forums
14:38:31 <thin> yeah..  http://forth.bespin.org
14:40:16 <MrReach> I thought FS/Forth was once a commercial system
14:40:21 <MrReach> am I mistaken?
14:40:33 <MrReach> who is Samuel ???
14:40:44 <rO|> thin: what's w/ the next cm interview?
14:41:48 <thin> samuel = kc5tja
14:42:03 <MrReach> ah! awesome!
14:42:29 <MrReach> about time someone started a public peephole optimised STC forth
14:42:32 <thin> ro|: hmm, i suppose it might be time for another chuck moore interview, which could be used to increase the number of visitors to the site ;)
14:42:59 <rO|> :-)
14:43:08 <thin> maybe in november
14:43:15 <thin> or october
14:43:28 <thin> we'll see what happens :P
14:44:07 <rO|> i've seen the fox on the colorforth chan
14:44:13 <thin> and someone will have to code a special irc bot to gather questions, questions that can be ranked by the ppl, so the highest ranked questions go first
14:44:31 <rO|> chumpbot
14:44:33 <thin> the colorforth chan only has 3 ppl doesn't it?
14:44:55 <rO|> well sometime ago, yes
14:45:06 <thin> i mean a few months ago
14:45:15 <rO|> yes
14:46:07 <rO|> quantity != quality ;-)
14:46:13 <rO|> :P
14:46:49 <MrReach> quantity gives more diversity ... good thing
14:47:07 <MrReach> quality = signal-to-noise
14:47:49 <MrReach> 1.0 signal-to-noise f!
14:47:56 <MrReach> erg! wrong!
14:48:06 <MrReach> 1e0 signal-to-noise f!
14:48:31 <rO|> condensed wisdom offered freely is good for newbies like me ;-)
14:48:52 <rO|> or better concentrated wisdom
14:57:31 <MrReach> there you go, futhin
14:59:26 <MrReach> the damn forum pages have no link to the home page
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15:08:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
15:08:47 <SDO> Herkamire, let me know when you are doing, then I can remove the files.
15:09:16 <MrReach> greets, kc5 ... was just reeading over your sources
15:10:42 * kc5tja nods
15:11:52 <MrReach> were you thinking of a peephole-optimised subroutine threaded forth?
15:12:40 <kc5tja> Can you provide me with some amount of context please?
15:12:58 <MrReach> your plans for FS/Forth
15:13:14 <MrReach> oh, btw, wasn't FS/Forth once a commercial program?
15:13:20 <kc5tja> FS/Forth will make extensive use of the Moore philosophy.
15:13:35 <MrReach> ah! I take that as a resounding "NO!"
15:13:58 <kc5tja> MrReach: No.  FS/Forth was a proprietary development environment for Falvosoft back when I was a teenager.
15:14:07 <kc5tja> MrReach: It was never available for sale.
15:15:28 <MrReach> oh, ok
15:15:30 <kc5tja> Correct -- FS/Forth will implement only those optimizations that makes sense (e.g., tail-call optimization, knowledge of literals in the generated instructions, etc).  I suppose it's a very, very limited subset of peephole optimization, but it's not extensive.
15:15:47 <MrReach> any code copying?
15:15:49 <kc5tja> Only those things which can be done cheaply.
15:15:57 <MrReach> prob not ... moore uses "smaller is better"
15:16:02 <kc5tja> Code copying is what?
15:16:09 <MrReach> erm ...
15:16:57 <MrReach> word A calls word B ... if the code for word B is very small (lits for instance) ... then the machine code for word B is copied into word A
15:17:17 <MrReach> rather than compiling a JSR
15:17:18 <kc5tja> Code copying is not supported.
15:17:38 <kc5tja> Code inlining is supported by way of COMPILER words (e.g., immediate words).
15:17:49 * MrReach nods
15:17:49 <kc5tja> Inlining is used for primitives.
15:18:22 <kc5tja> (BTW; what you call code copying is more formally known as code inlining as well)
15:18:32 <MrReach> yep, my mistake
15:18:40 <kc5tja> Hence my confusion.
15:19:33 <MrReach> hmmm ... it was my understanding ...
15:19:41 <kc5tja> I wish I had more time so that I can actually complete it.  :/
15:19:50 <MrReach> that "inlining" was immediate words that insert machine code
15:20:09 <kc5tja> Right now, I have to work on a website for someone, then I have to prepare to move, then I have to worry about where my next source of income is going to come from, as I cannot depend on my unemployment checks.
15:20:14 <MrReach> "copying" was a bit more primitive ... and exceptions have to be handled
15:20:34 <MrReach> oh! lots of fun in your life right now
15:20:37 <kc5tja> MrReach: Inlining is used for both practices.
15:20:45 <kc5tja> Yes.
15:20:58 <kc5tja> The good thing is that I'm moving to someplace where rent is precisely 33% what I'm paying now.
15:21:07 <MrReach> oh my god!
15:21:08 <kc5tja> The bad thing is that I have zero cash at my disposal at all.
15:21:14 <MrReach> are you moving out of oceanside?
15:21:17 <kc5tja> Yes.
15:21:22 * kc5tja is moving to San Diego.
15:21:35 <MrReach> I've lived in both Vista and Leucadia
15:21:38 <kc5tja> The house I'm moving into (and it's a real house!  YAY!) has four other people living there.
15:21:52 <kc5tja> So rent is substantially cheaper for me.
15:21:58 * kc5tja nods
15:22:04 * MrReach nods, "Last year, SD hot the hottest RE market in the USA"
15:22:24 <kc5tja> Right now, Oceanside is every bit as expensive to live in as San Diego.
15:22:26 <MrReach> "had the hottest"
15:22:37 <kc5tja> Property values are going up astronomically.
15:22:49 <kc5tja> Even the slums are charging some $850 to $950/month rent.  It's outrageous.
15:22:52 <MrReach> yep, they should level off here before too long
15:23:30 <kc5tja> Where I'm moving to, I'll be paying only $550/month.  :D
15:24:09 <kc5tja> For quite a sizable room, too.  About 15'x15' -- master bedroom, with an immense walk-in closet.  And plenty of backyard space to erect antennas too, so I'll finally have a decent radio setup.
15:25:05 <MrReach> heh
15:25:08 <MrReach> good for you
15:26:20 <MrReach> do you watch the win32forth yahoo group??
15:26:22 * kc5tja needs to build a new telescope mount too -- the German equitorial mount he currently has is utterly useless.  Way too much backlash, which defeats the purpose of the mount to begin with.
15:26:25 <kc5tja> No.
15:26:31 <kc5tja> I do not like Win32Forth.
15:26:38 <kc5tja> Very, very, very hard to use.
15:26:43 <MrReach> neither do I ... but it has the most development
15:26:43 <kc5tja> (in my experience)
15:26:48 <MrReach> same here
15:27:11 <MrReach> can you add a spring to the german mount, and recalibrate?
15:27:14 <kc5tja> Well, FS/Forth for Linux is going to start out a bit like ColorForth -- using SDL for framebuffer access.
15:27:34 <kc5tja> I'm thinking of adding some support for calling X11 and/or GTK at a later time though, enabling me to develop more integrated Linux applications with it.
15:27:35 <MrReach> SDL?
15:27:52 <kc5tja> No, the spring will only add to the backlash.
15:28:27 <kc5tja> A telescope mount such as the GE mount already places a reasonably large mass off-axis from the mount already, hence it's already a tuning fork.  I don't need a spring to oscillate it further.  :)
15:28:30 <MrReach> I'd *REALLY* like to see an optimising forth that's cross-platform compatible on windows and linux/x
15:28:46 <MrReach> ah! ok
15:29:02 * kc5tja is going to build a horse-shoe mount for his telescope.  Much more stable, and the center of gravity for the whole telescope sits within the mount itself, not outside it.
15:29:13 <kc5tja> MrReach: Well, my Forth isn't "optimizing."
15:29:15 <MrReach> yep
15:29:22 --- join: ma] (markus@lns-th2-11-82-64-244-113.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth
15:29:31 <kc5tja> but I do have plans to implement a version for Windows, but only as I need it.
15:29:31 <MrReach> so I gathered ... was hoping otherwise
15:29:42 <ma]> hi kc5tja
15:29:44 <kc5tja> MrReach: I find optimizing compilers aren't necessary.
15:29:46 <kc5tja> re ma]
15:30:05 <kc5tja> My benchmarks indicates that a dumb compiler will produce code that is only 2.2x slower than the very, very best that GCC produces.
15:30:42 <kc5tja> Considering that most program code is heavily dependent on I/O, and it takes some 200+ clock cycles to access external memory anyway, I hardly consider that a hinderance for real-world application development.
15:30:47 <MrReach> I have need for speed, in a current project
15:31:09 <kc5tja> Your best bet is to either use C or hand-code it in assembly (the latter produces better results anyway).
15:31:17 * MrReach nods.
15:31:35 <kc5tja> The generated Forth code, augmented with PREFETCH and PREFETCHW instructions, was faster than GCC's best output by about 5% or so.
15:31:59 <kc5tja> That just goes to show you how much cache optimization is overwhelmingly more important than things like optimized register usage and loop unrolling.
15:31:59 <MrReach> the application burns CDs assembled from a database of smallish parts
15:32:09 * kc5tja nods
15:32:23 <kc5tja> What you need for that isn't speed; it's interrupt response.
15:32:27 <MrReach> yep, was aware of that
15:32:33 <kc5tja> That's one application where you are very I/O bound.
15:32:57 <MrReach> yep, working on multichannel SCSI and rambus
15:33:08 <kc5tja> RAMBus -- I'm sorry.
15:33:23 <MrReach> or whatever the 400MHz technology is/was
15:33:33 <MrReach> I'd have to go look it up again
15:33:47 <kc5tja> There are two: DDR-SDRAM (what everyone BESIDES Intel uses), and RamBus (what only Intel uses).
15:33:56 <MrReach> thanks
15:34:37 <kc5tja> RamBus would be a whole lot better if they recognized and addressed their latency issue.  And widened the datapath to 16-bits per chip instead of 8-bits.
15:34:41 <MrReach> right now, still writing software ... will purchase the hardware when the demand get high enough
15:35:02 * kc5tja is still looking for a recurring income opportunity with software.
15:35:07 <kc5tja> I can't identify a single one.
15:35:18 <kc5tja> The barrier to entry for any software-related industry is just too high.
15:35:22 <MrReach> think "subscription service"
15:35:29 <kc5tja> Bull shit.
15:35:40 <kc5tja> I fundamentally object to that school of thought.
15:35:40 * MrReach shrugs
15:35:49 <kc5tja> There are more honest ways of making money.
15:36:04 <MrReach> there are services that require that paradigm
15:36:11 <kc5tja> Besides, what would I have people subscribe to?
15:36:14 <kc5tja> Software isn't one of them.
15:36:20 <MrReach> ISP for instance
15:36:24 <kc5tja> ISP isn't software.
15:36:36 <MrReach> no, it's infrastructure
15:36:38 * kc5tja ran two ISPs in the past.
15:36:43 <kc5tja> I'm talking software.
15:37:01 <MrReach> but I was using as an example of a service that makes sense as a subscription
15:37:13 <kc5tja> What would I have people subscribe to?
15:37:33 <MrReach> some stuff going on is just stupid, though ... like subscriptions to sales catalogs
15:37:40 <kc5tja> Exactly.
15:37:50 <MrReach> heh, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it?
15:37:59 <kc5tja> "Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- That's pretty much what I'm seeing.
15:38:12 <MrReach> naw ... not even
15:38:28 <kc5tja> But it's true, in many ways.
15:38:41 <kc5tja> I can't publish have the shit I want to in software because it's covered by software patents.
15:38:46 <MrReach> there have been some many businesses built in the last three years that couldn't *EVEN* have been conceived in the 70s or 80s
15:39:06 <kc5tja> And especially with software, there's quite often only one way to do something.
15:39:15 <MrReach> there will be many more to come
15:39:33 <kc5tja> Yes, and only companies with large pocketbooks can fund the R&D.
15:39:38 <MrReach> who would have guessed that the big money would be spent on search engines???
15:39:49 --- join: gilbertdeb (gilbert@fl-nken-u2-c3b-118.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth
15:39:54 * kc5tja guessed it.
15:39:57 <gilbertdeb> aloha
15:40:02 <kc5tja> but I didn't have the resources to put one up.
15:40:11 <kc5tja> Once again, "a day late."
15:40:15 <MrReach> not neccessarily
15:40:17 <MrReach> yahoo started as a personal web page
15:40:23 <gilbertdeb> hi MrReach.
15:40:27 <MrReach> heh, I know that feeling
15:40:31 <MrReach> greets, gilbert
15:40:32 <kc5tja> Yahoo had a marketing department.
15:40:39 <kc5tja> Even when it started.
15:41:01 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja marketing is absolutely necessary :)
15:41:04 <MrReach> several times a month I find myself smacking my forehead, "DUH! Why didn't I think of that!"
15:41:22 --- join: I440r (~x@dialup-67.29.205.105.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth
15:41:30 <MrReach> kc: yahoo started as a college students list of interesting places
15:41:35 <MrReach> greets, i4
15:41:39 <I440r> hi mrreach!!
15:41:43 <kc5tja> MrReach: College drop-outs, you mean.
15:41:46 <MrReach> then people started sending him links to add
15:41:47 <I440r> ltns :)
15:41:59 <gilbertdeb> yet another hierarchical officuous oracle or some such.
15:42:06 <kc5tja> ltns == Lanterns?
15:42:07 <MrReach> then he made a CGI form that allowed people to add their own links
15:42:37 <MrReach> when he was bought out, it had something like 6,000 links ... and he got like $3mil for the name
15:42:49 <kc5tja> Exactly.
15:42:54 <kc5tja> That would never have happened to me.
15:43:04 <I440r> long time no see
15:43:06 <I440r> lol
15:43:15 <I440r> ive been afk - stil lookign for work
15:43:17 <kc5tja> Lord knows, I've set up my fair share of community sites, and all have gotten zero (or less) activity.
15:43:25 <MrReach> heh
15:43:28 <I440r> but ive been working on an umbilical 8051 forth 
15:43:38 <I440r> and Keil is interested in it :)
15:43:50 <kc5tja> There is only one thing that I'm working on that people seem to have any faint interest in: FS/Forth and Dolphin.
15:44:28 <MrReach> also, kc ... it's not going to be raw software where opportunity lies ...
15:44:49 <kc5tja> Yes, it's not what you know, it's who you know.
15:44:51 <kc5tja> And I know nobody.
15:44:54 <MrReach> but rather where comp tech interesects with an industry that hasn't seen it much yet
15:44:56 <kc5tja> So go figure.
15:45:19 <kc5tja> There aren't any industries that haven't been touched by compsci.
15:45:29 <MrReach> "touched much"
15:45:41 <kc5tja> You know what I mean.
15:45:46 <MrReach> yep
15:46:14 <kc5tja> Maybe I can collect used cardboard boxes and make solar ovens out of them, and sell them for $5 a pop.  'cos that'll be about how much they'll be worth.
15:46:27 <MrReach> we seem to disagree vehemently ...
15:46:43 <MrReach> I think there is more opportunity in the market than there ever has been
15:46:51 <gilbertdeb> MrReach do tell.
15:46:57 <gilbertdeb> what is blinding everyone so much?
15:46:58 <I440r> yes but nobody is hiring
15:47:00 <kc5tja> Every avenue for possible innovation I've seen is blocked steadfast by patent after patent.
15:47:21 <I440r> unless you have a masters degree and do object obfuscated real time embedded microsoft visual c++
15:47:23 <kc5tja> There is ZERO opportunity in the market today UNLESS you have MILLIONS of dollars in your pocket.
15:47:35 * MrReach snorts
15:47:38 <kc5tja> I440r: Please stop using object obfuscated.
15:47:49 <gilbertdeb> heheheh
15:47:51 <I440r> sorry :)
15:47:52 <kc5tja> You know full well that object oriented programming can be done in any language, including Forth (I've done it).
15:47:58 <gilbertdeb> oof
15:48:17 <kc5tja> And despite what so many people think, table-oriented programming is not only fucking bullshit, it's patently mutually exclusive with its own claims.
15:48:17 <MrReach> some of the forth OO systems are quite elegant
15:48:24 * kc5tja doesn't use any OO systems.
15:48:24 <I440r> i didnt say otherwise, but i DO say that ive never seen it used ANYWEHERE where it improved matters
15:48:36 <I440r> the only place i ever saw OOP used well is in the amiga os
15:48:41 <kc5tja> I440r: Every place I've seen it, it has improved matters extensively.
15:48:53 <MrReach> the MS component model works pretty well
15:48:57 <kc5tja> Imagine programming Win32 API without MFC.  :0
15:49:06 <gilbertdeb> table-oriented? isn't that just a variation of array-oriented?
15:49:07 * kc5tja has done both.
15:49:09 <MrReach> kc: I do
15:49:13 <gilbertdeb> I think the author might look at k
15:49:15 <I440r> i dont want to do ANY ms drag and drop coding at all
15:49:20 <I440r> specially not with the mfc
15:49:21 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Yes, and yet, "Arrays are as evil as GOTOs" according to its primary proponent.
15:49:26 <I440r> 2943569872457982608246985723547298465698246957837 gigs of bullshit
15:49:28 <gilbertdeb> heh?
15:49:42 <kc5tja> I440r: Now you're just plain not making a lick of sense.
15:49:48 <MrReach> kc: that would be knuth??
15:49:57 <kc5tja> MrReach: Huh?
15:50:10 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja misusers of goto should not blame GOTO for giving them the chance to abuse it.
15:50:23 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I didn't say GOTO was evil.
15:50:23 <gilbertdeb> knuth doesn't think GOTO is bad at all.
15:50:27 <MrReach> i4 is pointing out that conventional compilers in a windows environ have no qualms about adding cruft to the binaries
15:50:31 <gilbertdeb>  "Arrays are as evil as GOTOs"
15:50:37 <gilbertdeb> ah okay1
15:50:40 <gilbertdeb> I get it now.
15:50:42 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I didn't say that.
15:50:43 <kc5tja> :)
15:50:49 <gilbertdeb> proponents of table-oriented programming!
15:50:56 <kc5tja> oops -- that was supposed to be I didn't say that.
15:51:00 <kc5tja> (missing bold-off)
15:51:20 <kc5tja> MrReach: Actually, they don't.
15:51:34 <kc5tja> MrReach: It's MFC that adds some amount of cruft, because it's poorly factored.
15:51:44 <gilbertdeb> lets all use plan9 or create an inferno like vm with forth underneath ;)
15:51:49 <gilbertdeb> to be hosted on ANY machine.
15:51:49 <I440r> ive no interest in OOP or table oriented programming, i dont what to be hurded into doing it in ANY particlular way
15:51:52 <kc5tja> But that doesn't change one word of my assessment of MFC -- it's overwhelmingly easier to program than raw Win32.
15:52:15 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Inferno sucks.  Plan 9 blows it away, IMNSHO.
15:52:24 <gilbertdeb> heheh. 
15:52:28 <gilbertdeb> it did come from the same people.
15:52:37 <gilbertdeb> but inferno's niche is shared with java.
15:52:50 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: So?  It was rushed to market once Plan 9 got "big", and it shows.  It is a completely joke.
15:53:12 <kc5tja> Plan 9 is so much better thought out and better factored that I'd rather use it instead.
15:53:12 <gilbertdeb> it can be improved once it is open sourced :D
15:53:20 <kc5tja> Whatever.
15:53:53 <MrReach> what is the difference between an OO system, and function calls with handles?
15:53:57 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:54:06 <kc5tja> I440r: What I love are the proponents for OO-less systems, but then they use fopen/fread/fwrite/fprint/etc.
15:54:17 <kc5tja> MrReach: Thank you.  :)
15:54:18 <MrReach> heh, great minds
15:54:18 --- join: I440r (~x@dialup-67.29.205.105.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth
15:54:21 <kc5tja> I440r: What I love are the proponents for OO-less systems, but then they use fopen/fread/fwrite/fprint/etc.
15:54:25 <MrReach> what is the difference between an OO system, and function calls with handles?
15:54:45 <gilbertdeb> instant replay. you've gotta love that.
15:54:55 <MrReach> maybe a table lookup or a linear search
15:54:58 <I440r> i dont, i use the syscalls or write a emit/.quote 
15:54:59 <I440r> heh
15:55:07 <kc5tja> I440r: Uhhh...OK.  
15:55:14 <I440r> i NEVER liked any of the c libraries
15:55:16 <kc5tja> I440r: What I love are the proponents for OO-less systems, but then they use creat/open/read/write/etc.
15:55:19 <I440r> way way way too complex
15:55:20 <SDO> if anyone would help me with SETI, account 'seti@palomablanca.net', trying to kick my C++ loving friends butt.
15:55:24 <SDO> Thanks.
15:55:38 <MrReach> I4: you stay AWAY from my file systems
15:55:55 <kc5tja> I440r: Or window systems, or networking systems, or . . .
15:56:15 <I440r> kc5 my syscall useage works fine
15:56:34 <kc5tja> The fact is, when you have a library of functionality, whether you wrote it or not, and you need to identify between several different instances of some object, you're dealing with a moderately OO interface.
15:56:41 <kc5tja> I440r: Do you NOT get it?????
15:57:03 <MrReach> syscalls are simply a low-level library
15:57:17 <MrReach> library = opaque box
15:57:33 <I440r> im passing parameters to a FUNCTION. how said function handles those parameters and does what it does i could care less about
15:57:40 <I440r> its a BLACK BOX
15:57:41 <MrReach> so long as it behaves as advertised, everyone is happy
15:57:45 <I440r> i say "
15:57:49 <I440r> "Write this data"
15:57:57 <I440r> and if it does it thats all i care about
15:58:02 <gilbertdeb> bbiab
15:58:03 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth
15:58:12 <MrReach> isn't that the classic definition of a library?
15:58:16 <kc5tja> I440r: And this differs from an object interface . . . how?!
15:58:19 <I440r> i am not doing anyting OOP just because im using a syscall
15:58:22 * MrReach laughs
15:58:24 <kc5tja> Yes you are.
15:58:31 <kc5tja> What the heck do you think that file descriptor integer is?
15:58:34 <I440r> kc5 you asked the question wrong.
15:58:38 <kc5tja> It identifies an object.
15:58:46 <MrReach> the "handle" can be said to move you into the OO realm
15:59:08 <I440r> if i write a function to do operation x
15:59:12 <I440r> im NOT using oop
15:59:17 <I440r> im using function programming
15:59:24 <MrReach> the function addresses are looked up in a table at compile time, though
15:59:26 <I440r> but at the same time im not restricting myself in that way either
16:00:04 <kc5tja> I440r: You are just plain not understanding a thing I'm trying to say.  At all.
16:00:29 <I440r> kc5 any time anyone tries to "teach" me anything about OOP and "how great it is" i shut off
16:00:33 <kc5tja> If you have a function foo(x, y), where x is some identifier for some data structure that foo works on, then it is true that foo() is part of x's interface to the world.
16:00:42 <kc5tja> I440r: THAT IS THE WRONG ATTITUDE TO TAKE.
16:00:42 <MrReach> i4: so we noticed
16:01:02 <I440r> i am 100% diametrically opposed to ALL (re read that... A L L) structured (read restricted) programming methods
16:01:15 <kc5tja> I440r: Then don't program.  Ever.
16:01:16 <ian_p> but using OOP doesnt mean you're restricted to it
16:01:33 <ian_p> you can mix OOP and functional code, no?
16:01:39 <ian_p> procedural
16:01:42 <I440r> i make no appologies about it, you start hurding people into this or that method and along comes a problem that does FIT with the "required" methods and....
16:01:46 <MrReach> there are places where OO makes problem conceptualization immensely easier
16:01:49 <I440r> you get windows
16:01:53 <kc5tja> Because, I hate to tell you this, but Forth is *EXTREMELY* structured.  It's structured in a way that Djikstra would be proud of.  And Djikstra is tougher than either Knuth or Wirth.
16:01:59 <I440r> i dont think so
16:02:10 <I440r> brb
16:02:13 <kc5tja> Bullshit
16:02:54 <MrReach> when thinking about a problem ... OO is a means of breaking it into smaller portions
16:02:58 <kc5tja> If you've ever had the need to modularize your programs, where this set of functions/words does this, and that set of words does that, then that's NO DIFFERENT than defining a set of classes.  Absolutely no different what-so-ever.
16:03:05 <MrReach> not the only means, of course
16:03:31 <MrReach> kc: well, there's some differences about when and how the lookup is done
16:04:14 <MrReach> if the object type is known at compile time, then it's identicle
16:04:51 <I440r> kc5 yes - but doing the "no you cant do that so there" is NOT a forth thing
16:04:55 <MrReach> with functional programming, the object type is ALWAYS known
16:04:56 <I440r> so your not restricted
16:05:09 <kc5tja> I440r: You're changing the argument.
16:05:14 <I440r> : foo ... if ..... ;   : bar ..... then .... ;
16:05:23 <kc5tja> I440r: Sorry, that's invalid code.
16:05:25 <I440r> you can do ANYTHING if you know what your doing
16:05:34 <kc5tja> That will patently crash if you attempt to execute any of those words.
16:05:43 <I440r> define invalid
16:05:53 <MrReach> heh, if you worked for me, I'd make you rewrite that, I4
16:05:58 <kc5tja> When if is compiled, where is its target address pointing to?
16:06:08 <kc5tja> By the time ; is executed, it'll still likely point to zero.
16:06:12 <I440r> whose target address ?
16:06:14 <I440r> the if's ?
16:06:17 <kc5tja> So if the IF condition fails, it'll take an invalid address.
16:06:20 <I440r> the if is resolved in the next definition
16:06:24 <kc5tja> I440r: What the hell did I just say?
16:06:25 <I440r> its quite legal to do that 
16:06:36 <kc5tja> That's the other thing.
16:06:48 <kc5tja> It'll resolve into the other definition, where the stack environment hasn't been properly established yet.
16:06:53 <MrReach> heh, I feel sorry for the poor sap that comes along later and is expected to maintain that code
16:07:03 <kc5tja> That type of code will break under FS/Forth.
16:07:10 <I440r> eh ?
16:07:18 <I440r> what do you mean "the stack environment"
16:07:24 <kc5tja> Forget it.
16:07:53 <I440r> the IF is an immediate word that compiels a conditional forwared branch. the target is unknown so the mark address is left on the stack
16:08:05 <kc5tja> Yes.
16:08:08 <I440r> the THEN back patches the marked address and thus resolves the forward reference
16:08:10 <kc5tja> But that isn't what I'm talking about.
16:08:19 <MrReach> kc: is saying that the afrementioned definition assumes that "if-sys" lasts on the stack across word definitions
16:08:21 <kc5tja> Obviously, the THEN will fix that address up (assuming the compiler doesn't touch the data stack at all).
16:08:53 <kc5tja> What I'm saying is AT RUN-TIME, AFTER THE IF CONDITION IS PROVEN TO BE FALSE, the branch will occur to just after THEN's point.
16:09:19 <I440r> correect, i.e. into the following def
16:09:28 <kc5tja> foo and bar are then inseparable -- the mutual coupling between the two words is so strong that you might as well just make the thing one word.
16:09:50 <I440r> no
16:09:58 <kc5tja> OK, whatever.
16:09:59 <MrReach> naw, gotta throw in a create and does> to make life interesting
16:10:06 <kc5tja> Yeah.
16:10:22 <I440r> hehe
16:10:40 <kc5tja> FS/Forth will not use CREATE/DOES>, I don't think.  It's easy to support, but I'm going to try it first without it.
16:10:51 <I440r> : foo ..... if ..... ;   : bar create blah does> then ..... ;
16:10:53 <I440r> hehehe
16:10:56 <kc5tja> There's a technique used in ColorForth which I didn't foresee, but which is pretty easy to use.
16:11:07 <kc5tja> I440r: It's your sanity.
16:11:09 <kc5tja> Don't say I didn't warn you.
16:11:30 <MrReach> : foo ( flg -- ) IF create does> blah blah ; : bar else parse ack! ;
16:11:31 <kc5tja> It's people like this where Forth gets its claim as a write-only language comes from.
16:11:31 <I440r> kc5 i was being humorous, thats the sort of gordian knot C coders write :)
16:11:49 <kc5tja> I440r: BULLSHIT!!!
16:11:53 <MrReach> yep
16:12:10 <kc5tja> I've been coding in C for more than 10 years -- I've maintained code from other C programmers for longer.  I've never seen anything even REMOTELY as hard to maintain as that.
16:12:11 <I440r> all c is gordian knot
16:12:13 <I440r> ALL 
16:12:13 <kc5tja> Even in GNU code!!
16:12:28 <kc5tja>  /ignore
16:12:29 <MrReach> like i said, if i4 worked for me, i'd have him rewrite the obfuscated code
16:12:33 <I440r> file a includes file b. which includes file c d e f and g.
16:12:44 <I440r> each of these may include 40 or 50 other files
16:12:54 <kc5tja> I440r: THAT ISN'T A FUCKING KNOT!!!
16:12:55 <I440r> each of wihch include 28562784 or so files each....
16:12:59 <MrReach> "Please use proper structured programming rules while working here"
16:13:00 <I440r> tell me thats not a fucking gording know
16:13:01 <kc5tja> That is a well-ordered tree
16:13:15 <kc5tja> I just did.
16:13:40 <kc5tja> And, last I checked, Forth is absolutely no different.
16:13:43 <I440r> no thats a means of obfuscating who does what, where and when
16:13:44 <kc5tja> Ever look at Chuck's code recently?
16:13:45 <I440r> and why
16:14:00 <kc5tja> No, you're being unreasonable.
16:14:02 <I440r> unless you know every inch of every single included file you dont know SHIT about whats realing going on
16:14:02 <MrReach> C is a completely different paradigm ... it's comparing apples and oranges
16:14:06 <I440r> therefore your not a coder.
16:14:11 <kc5tja> You're showing ignorance and a patent unwillingness to learn how other people do things.
16:14:14 <I440r> its the difference between a cook and a chefe
16:14:28 <kc5tja> I440r: Repeat after me: b u l l s h i t.
16:14:38 <I440r> most c is
16:14:46 <kc5tja> I440r: That's just plain not true.
16:14:51 <MrReach> the difference between barbequing on the tailgate (forth) and having a professional kitchen at your disposal
16:14:57 <I440r> kc5 agree to disagree
16:15:11 <I440r> i hate c. i hate 99% of what all c coders produce.
16:15:11 <kc5tja> I440r: No, because I won't stand for you spreading lies.
16:15:17 <kc5tja> I dislike C too.
16:15:22 <kc5tja> But not for incorrect reasons.
16:15:22 <MrReach> you can cook some damn good food on the tailgate ... but it's really hard to get fancy
16:15:39 <I440r> who needs fancy
16:15:43 <kc5tja> And most importantly, I don't have such a closed mind that I'm not willing to learn, or at least consider, alternatives.
16:15:49 <I440r> NOBODY needs fancy, they just need sustanace
16:15:54 <I440r> and c is junk food
16:16:06 <MrReach> hey! I happen to like a pepper sauce snapper every once and again
16:16:18 <I440r> kc5 maybe im so closed to them because i HAVE studied them a little
16:16:27 <kc5tja> I440r: You show zero evidence of it.
16:16:34 <MrReach> heh, I4 would doom us to nothing but hot dogs and hamburgers
16:16:42 <kc5tja> Your lack of associations between object interfaces and procedural programming is disturbingly telling.
16:17:07 <MrReach> "because we don't need more"
16:17:20 <kc5tja> MrReach: The Communist programmer's manifesto.  :)
16:17:44 <MrReach> oh! hell! that would make an EXCELLENT paper!
16:17:53 <kc5tja> Heheh :D
16:18:17 <MrReach> "how much library is enough?"
16:18:31 <I440r> mrrecah - peanut butter and jelly s/w
16:18:33 <I440r> heh
16:18:34 <kc5tja> If you can write code, and there is a need for said code, then you're hired.
16:18:37 <I440r> and chocolate cake
16:18:43 <kc5tja> Otherwise, off to the gulag with you.
16:18:50 <kc5tja> I440r: Sorry, chocolate cake is too fancy.
16:18:54 <kc5tja> (and junk food as well)
16:18:55 <I440r> no it isnt
16:18:59 <I440r> its just cocoa :)
16:19:11 <MrReach> best you get is Twinkies ... small easy to understand
16:19:16 <kc5tja> Let me think: cocoa (caffeine), sugar, sugar, more sugar, flour, sugar, and . . . sugar.
16:19:21 <kc5tja> Yep, I think that pretty much sums it up.
16:19:30 <I440r> you forgot sugar
16:19:43 <kc5tja> Yes, oh, and sugar too.
16:19:47 <I440r> :)
16:19:55 <I440r> i gotta go, my father needs the line :/
16:20:01 <I440r> bye :)
16:20:05 <MrReach> be well, I440r
16:20:06 --- quit: I440r ()
16:20:17 <Robert> Hi MrReach!
16:20:32 <MrReach> he's probably screaming at the somputer and slobbering on the keyboard
16:20:37 <MrReach> hihi, Robert
16:21:16 <kc5tja> wb Robert
16:21:34 * Robert just biked through a _dark_ valley.
16:21:42 <MrReach> heh?
16:21:47 <Robert> Heh!
16:22:02 * kc5tja wanted to go biking today, but I had many errands to run, and I have aikido.
16:22:06 <Robert> Well, the sun was up when I went away...
16:22:42 <Robert> But then I stayed a bit long. On the way home that moon slice behind the coulds was all there was to guide me home.
16:23:03 <Robert> Fortunatley the roads aren't to crowded this time of day.
16:23:59 <MrReach> heh, need a flashlight or generator?
16:24:39 <MrReach> jeez! I outta call this radio show
16:24:58 <MrReach> they're talking about the change to hydrogen fuel
16:25:09 <MrReach> which I disagree with vehmently
16:25:11 <kc5tja> Robert: They do sell head-lights for bikes that don't drag the bike down -- you do need a battery for it though.
16:25:44 <kc5tja> MrReach: I agree with it, but I feel there are alternative options that make more sense (e.g., homegrown ethanol fuel, biodiesel, etc)
16:26:05 <MrReach> yeah, methane is about as volatile as i'd want to go
16:26:30 <kc5tja> A lot of people talk about methanol, and I really don't like that substance.
16:26:34 <kc5tja> "It's safe" they say.
16:26:46 <kc5tja> Yeah, until you get a non-trivial amount on your skin, and you next find yourself blind.
16:26:58 <MrReach> that's ethanol
16:27:04 <kc5tja> Sorry, not true.
16:27:11 <kc5tja> The 'booz' in booz is ethanol.  :)
16:27:14 <MrReach> have I got it backwards?
16:27:18 <kc5tja> Yep.  :)
16:27:22 <Robert> I prefer moonlight to methanol...
16:27:25 <Robert> But thanks anyway.
16:27:40 <Robert> I didn't intend to bike home in the dark anyway.
16:27:44 <MrReach> it's not very energy-dense either
16:27:44 <kc5tja> methanol is nasty stuff.  And heaven forbid you ever ingest that stuff.  
16:27:53 <kc5tja> MrReach: It's dense enough for most people's needs.
16:28:23 <MrReach> need about 3 gals of alcohol for 1 gal of gasoline, right?
16:28:42 <kc5tja> It's 2/3rd the energy density of gasoline.
16:28:52 <kc5tja> (almost perfectly at that)
16:28:57 <MrReach> ok, so half again as much ... not too bad
16:29:00 <kc5tja> But, it's 100 octane.  :D
16:29:08 <Robert> Uranium is still better.
16:29:11 <MrReach> oh, yeah, burns nice and cool
16:29:13 <kc5tja> So very high compression engines can be used to make more efficient systems.
16:29:25 <Robert> Hmm.. I wonder if NASA has any Voyager power supplies to spare!
16:29:29 * kc5tja daydreams of a 14:1 compression rotary engine....
16:30:36 <MrReach> what an interesting show
16:31:02 <kc5tja> The way I see if, if we just stopped paying our farmers to not produce anything on their land, the ethanol would be cheap enough to warrent the energy density reduction.  Combine that with higher compression engines, and hence, more efficient engines, and I think we'll have a net win.
16:31:16 <kc5tja> s/see if,/see it,/
16:31:24 <MrReach> cars only produce 20% of co2 ... our focus would be better spent elsewhere
16:31:54 <kc5tja> MrReach: But they produce some 50% of the total pollutants overall.
16:32:02 <kc5tja> (NOx, unburned HCs, etc)
16:32:06 <MrReach> right
16:32:14 <kc5tja> I'm looking at it from an overall aspect.
16:32:27 <MrReach> I should think that lots of co2 would mean lots of healthy pants
16:32:30 <MrReach> plants
16:32:30 <kc5tja> If we got our farms growing again, CO2 consumption rates would increase, thus reducing the concern for it.
16:32:42 <Robert> MrReach: :D
16:32:52 <kc5tja> My pants are quite healthy, thank you.  :)
16:33:04 <MrReach> haha!
16:33:11 <kc5tja> ALthough, my gi pants has a hole in one knee that I need to fix.  It's not so healthy.  :D
16:33:18 <MrReach> I'm confused ... co2 in the air is "a bad thing"?
16:33:46 <kc5tja> MrReach: No, but it is a greenhouse gas.  Its production needs to be balanced by its consumption.
16:33:55 <kc5tja> Right now, it's woefully unbalanced, in favor of production.
16:34:01 <MrReach> I should think the mispent heat would be more dangerous
16:34:24 <MrReach> not to mention the bits of blowby oil
16:34:45 <kc5tja> Well, the sun delivers 1kW of heat to the surface of the Earth per square meter.  Even if we don't count the misspent heat from the engines, too much CO2 will cause a global warming just by that nature alone.
16:34:47 <MrReach> these fools
16:35:02 <MrReach> they say co2 is bad ... but who says so?
16:35:20 <kc5tja> MrReach: Well, NASA for one.
16:35:26 <MrReach> HAHA!
16:35:33 <MrReach> yeah, it tends to poison you
16:35:49 <kc5tja> Excuse me?
16:35:52 <kc5tja> I really don't see what's funny.
16:36:12 <MrReach> I'm laughing my ass off
16:36:38 <MrReach> the co2 could never get to that kind of concentration on the earth's surface
16:36:41 <kc5tja> Why?  Because there is a body of evidence that links increasing CO2 rates with increased global temperatures?
16:36:58 <MrReach> no, I was talking about NASA declaring co2 the enemy
16:37:15 <kc5tja> It's NASA that produced that evidence, from satellite data.
16:37:40 <MrReach> has anybody done the calcs about how many trillions of BTUs of stored energy we dump into the air every day?
16:37:54 <kc5tja> I've done research on this.  Yes, somebody has.
16:38:04 <kc5tja> This was part of my English research paper last semester.
16:38:22 <MrReach> do you think the data about co2 is compelling?
16:38:29 <kc5tja> (for sake of comparison, 1kW is approximately equal to 1 BTU, IIRC)
16:39:29 <MrReach> I should write a web page about this
16:39:41 <kc5tja> MrReach: I think it's strong enough to warrent concern, when put in context: deforestation is still quite rampant in less developed countries, Asia still has massive amounts of coal-burning plants that are producing prodigious amounts of greenhouse gases (including CO2, NOx, etc), etc.
16:39:56 <MrReach> THERE you go!
16:40:03 <MrReach> that I'll certainly agree with
16:40:21 <kc5tja> This is why I say that CO2 production needs to be balanced with consumption.
16:40:21 <MrReach> a co2 BUILDUP might be disasterous
16:40:33 <kc5tja> uhh...what was I talking about the last hundred lines?
16:40:46 <MrReach> but left to it's own devices, earth can easily compensate
16:40:50 <kc5tja> Sure.
16:40:57 <kc5tja> The oceans alone will purify the air after some time.
16:41:03 <kc5tja> It just takes time to blow the air over the oceans.
16:41:04 <MrReach> but of course, we're not leaving it to its own devices
16:41:09 <kc5tja> Exactly.
16:41:20 <MrReach> ah! something else to watch carefully
16:41:21 <kc5tja> That's why I advocate for more farmland devoted to growing local fuel/oil products.
16:41:39 <kc5tja> More plants == less CO2 build-up.  
16:41:47 <kc5tja> And local fuel == cheaper fuel.
16:41:53 <MrReach> it's my understanding that photoplankton recycles 60-70% of the co2
16:42:05 <kc5tja> Yes, that's what I heard as well.
16:42:12 <kc5tja> I don't have specific data to back that up though.
16:42:19 <kc5tja> That aspect wasn't part of my research.
16:42:26 <MrReach> in theory, then we could kill every plant on the earth's surface and still have a good chance of survival
16:42:37 <kc5tja> It'd get HOT, but yes.
16:42:45 <MrReach> but kill the photoplankton, we hurt NOW
16:42:47 <kc5tja> Now, it's the heat that is going to change everything.
16:43:10 <kc5tja> It only takes 1.2 degree C increase in temperature to produce a 1m rise in the ocean's surface level.
16:43:11 <MrReach> or even change the populous speci of photoplankton
16:43:45 <MrReach> actually, a 1m rise would dramatically increase the amount of photoplankton
16:43:57 <kc5tja> Average global temperatures have been increasing over the last two decades.
16:44:03 <MrReach> (and eliminate a similar number of our cities)
16:44:05 <kc5tja> Evidence suggests that it is not entirely natural.
16:44:18 <kc5tja> However, the rise is also within prediction error range.
16:44:19 <MrReach> yes, I can believe that
16:44:32 <kc5tja> So the jury is still out as to the real cause for increasing global temperatures.
16:44:51 <MrReach> the thing is, as a species are are not using a "waste not, want no" paradigm
16:45:04 * kc5tja nods
16:45:20 * kc5tja really wants to try building a solar oven some day, and cooking some food in it.
16:45:40 <MrReach> i'd like to see the world flooded with aluminum carrying cases of various shapes and sizes
16:45:52 <kc5tja> Why aluminum?
16:46:02 <MrReach> so many of them that people don't care to try to save them
16:46:18 <MrReach> so they throw them out in the garbage, where they are recycles
16:46:24 <kc5tja> Ahh
16:46:27 <MrReach> doesn't have to be aluminum
16:46:39 <MrReach> something lightweight, durable
16:46:40 <kc5tja> I was going to say, we could potentially recycle the metal in used, crushed, old cars.
16:47:08 <MrReach> you buy a lamp, it comes fedex in an aluminum case (or whatever)
16:47:17 <MrReach> need a case for something? keep it
16:47:28 <MrReach> otherwise put it out next to the trash can
16:47:42 <kc5tja> Heck, take the trashcan -- it'll be aluminum too.  :D
16:47:47 <kc5tja> Just leave an empty one in its place.
16:48:07 <MrReach> garbage compresses well in the truck
16:48:22 <MrReach> it would dramatically reduce the amount of garbage
16:48:37 <MrReach> hamburger can come in aluminum boxes
16:48:47 <MrReach> crackers, etc
16:49:08 <kc5tja> Even recyclable plastic would work.
16:49:20 <kc5tja> Although, many of the packaging I see is made from recycled paper.
16:49:26 <MrReach> yes ... although food products have a pretty serious health issue
16:49:31 * kc5tja nods
16:49:43 <kc5tja> Package the hamburger in the same style as canned food.
16:49:52 <kc5tja> That way, it'll last an eternity.  :D
16:49:57 <kc5tja> (until opened)
16:50:05 <MrReach> heh, not forever, but for a good long time
16:50:20 <MrReach> but I want my sirloin fresh
16:50:26 * kc5tja nods
16:50:33 * kc5tja used to be able to eat red meat without much of an issue.
16:50:41 <kc5tja> Now I get IBS flare-ups whenever I eat it.
16:50:47 <kc5tja> But every now and again, I treat myself... :D
16:50:49 <MrReach> ouch!
16:50:52 <MrReach> hormones?
16:50:59 <kc5tja> Potentially, I don't know.
16:51:16 <kc5tja> I don't eat red meat often enough to worry about it though.
16:51:23 * kc5tja is more a chicken and fish guy.
16:52:06 <MrReach> heh, like that phrase "co2 sequestration"
16:52:26 <kc5tja> sequestration sounds too much like castration to me.  :)
16:52:40 <kc5tja> I guess sequestration is the recycling of CO2?
16:52:40 <MrReach> reminds me of "sequence"
16:52:57 <MrReach> it is the conversion of carbon into solid forms
16:53:22 <kc5tja> Heh, I can see the chemical equation now: CO2 + CO2 -> diamond + 2O2  :)
16:53:49 <MrReach> heh, now THAT would be a bio-invention
16:53:51 <kc5tja> Graphite is cool though.  Stirling engines often use graphite pistons because of zero lubrication and a good tight seal.
16:54:06 <MrReach> it's in the pipe ... we'll figure how to do it in the next decade or so
16:54:22 <ma]> anybody aware of a video compression channel?
16:54:31 <ma]> on irc?
16:54:37 * kc5tja isn't
16:54:49 <MrReach> hmmm ... no, can't think of one
16:55:42 <kc5tja> The other thing that ticks me off is we eschew perfectly good technologies.
16:55:55 <MrReach> cloning for instance?
16:56:46 <kc5tja> Things like the Constantinesco torque converter for instance: there is 90% of a CVT that doesn't involve pulleys or chains, computer controls, vacuum lines, transmission fluid, or anything.  Yet it allows (if well designed) the engine to be direct-coupled to the wheels, and it always has the right gear ratio.
16:57:08 <MrReach> hey!
16:57:16 <kc5tja> And it can be built to handle the torque of 300+ HP engines.
16:57:24 <MrReach> is that the one they pictured in popular science in the 1980s?
16:57:32 <kc5tja> I don't know.  I don't subscribe to popsci.
16:57:39 <kc5tja> Do you have a link?
16:57:47 <MrReach> converts linear rotation or an oscillation, then back to rotation?
16:57:47 * kc5tja has a URL to where he found out about it
16:57:50 <kc5tja> Yes.
16:57:59 <kc5tja> Using a pendulum.
16:58:11 <MrReach> please, would love the link
16:58:18 <kc5tja> OK, hold on a second.
16:58:19 <MrReach> erm ... this one didn't have a pedulum
16:58:30 <kc5tja> URL?  I'd like to see how that one worked.
16:58:50 <MrReach> no, i've got the magazine in the basement somewhere
16:59:02 <MrReach> the web wasn't invented in the 80s
16:59:08 <MrReach> (or used, anyway)
16:59:30 <kc5tja> http://fluid.power.net/fpn/const/const005.html
16:59:42 <kc5tja> Can you scan in the pictures?
16:59:53 <kc5tja> This is the only *solid* documentation I've seen on Constantinesco torque converters.
16:59:53 <MrReach> heh, not legally
17:01:05 <MrReach> thank you
17:03:08 <MrReach> even if I did scan the pictures, though
17:03:20 <MrReach> there's not enough detail to understand how it works
17:03:35 <kc5tja> hmmm
17:03:43 <MrReach> which kind of pissed me off ... I wonder if it wasn't a scam
17:03:46 <kc5tja> This has a bit of detail, but not enough to build one yet.
17:04:00 * kc5tja has demonstrated the technique using a kitchen butterknife though.  The thing works.  :D
17:04:28 <MrReach> ok, i can see how it works
17:04:49 <MrReach> enertia acting on a variable-length lever
17:05:34 <MrReach> if yo get funky with the lever arm and fulcrum, you can probably fit into a flywheel
17:06:33 <MrReach> HAHA! he built his prototype when an Erector set!!!!
17:06:52 <kc5tja> Hey, why not?
17:07:11 <kc5tja> I build model Tesla turbines out of paper.  :D
17:07:18 <kc5tja> (and they work quite nicely too)
17:07:28 <MrReach> yes!
17:07:38 <MrReach> saw those pictures ... quite interesting
17:10:53 <kc5tja> I'm not 100% convinced of their utility in a commercial-class vehicle, of course.
17:11:01 <kc5tja> But for homebrewing stuff, they're awesomely capable devices.
17:11:18 * kc5tja is trying to build a simple Stirling cycle engine atm.  Taking some time, but hopefully I can get it to work.
17:11:41 <MrReach> from what materials?
17:13:38 <kc5tja> A soup can or tuna fish can for the displacer cylinder.  The power "piston" is just a balloon wrapped over the cap of a large Gatorade bottle, with an air hose leading up to it.
17:13:57 <kc5tja> It's a gamma-configuration engine.
17:14:05 * MrReach nods
17:16:31 <MrReach> ok, I have to go now
17:16:41 <MrReach> it's always interesting to talk to you
17:16:44 <MrReach> be well
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17:20:13 <kc5tja> gahh
17:23:43 --- nick: Fractal_ -> Fractal
17:24:52 <Robert> Hi :)
17:26:59 <kc5tja> OK, I'm off to aikido.
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18:42:54 <SDO> TreyB
18:46:44 <SDO> I remember where I have seen your name, you and Colin along with a few others were doing the BeSqueak thing.
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21:20:52 <rk> What minimum data stack and return stack depth does ANSI want?
21:38:24 <SDO> rk, If I could afford the big bucks for the FORTH ANSI standard docs I would know the answer to that...  In the mean time, I remember reading there was a draft ANSI document online somewhere, for free.
21:39:13 <rk> SDO: dpans doesnt have anything
21:39:29 <SDO> on another topic, this document for mac hackers is kinda interesting.... http://developer.apple.com/hardware/pci/pdf/4th_OF_A.pdf
21:40:08 <SDO> http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/chipdev/fph-1.htm
21:41:53 <SDO> http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/forth/ans/faq.html
21:41:57 <SDO> Maybe Peter would know.
21:42:12 <SDO> pjk at bcs dot org dot uk
21:43:17 <SDO> rk, wouldn't a one byte stack depth be expected at minimum?
21:44:06 <rk> SDO: i mean actually how many calls the return stack has to support
21:44:15 <SDO> oh
21:44:28 <rk> SDO: i know some old standard said 48 bytes ... but thats like 12 nested calls, not enough
21:45:55 <SDO> I've always wanted ANSI and ISO to have their standards out for free, this is the kind of stuff that pisses me off, same thing with the C language in the 80s and early 90s.
21:46:42 <rk> yeah
21:48:14 <SDO> http://www.xs4all.nl/~lennartb/forthhoax.txt  :)  LOL
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22:33:18 <rk> forth doesnt allow recursion?
22:36:27 <TreyB> It works differently in different forths.  ANS has the RECURSE keyword.
22:36:41 <TreyB> s/keyword/word/
22:36:48 <rk> TreyB: how does it work
22:38:38 <TreyB> In ANS FORTH, RECURSE does the equivalent of a "JSR current-definition".  Some implementations may optimize "RECURSE ;" into "JMP current definition".
22:41:38 <rk> eh
22:41:45 <rk> TreyB: how do i use it?
22:41:58 <rk> TreyB: I was experimenting, and I tried : q see q ;
22:42:06 <rk> TreyB: pforth didnt like that
22:42:43 <TreyB>  : myword ." print this forever" RECURSE ;
22:43:05 <rk> hrm, ok
22:43:15 <rk> TreyB: how can I stop recurse?
22:43:43 <TreyB> You can't :-)  You'll want to code some other out (usually via EXIT) into the routine.
22:43:53 <rk> aah, ok
22:43:55 <rk> hrmn
22:44:05 * rk wants to code a quine (sp.?)
22:46:51 <SDO> TreyB, where is the ANS proposal for FORTH?
22:47:04 <SDO> or do you or others have the offical release in PDF/PS/DVI?
22:47:23 <SDO> I hate tossing hundreds of bucks to the ISO/ANSI folks when I can't feed myself :)
22:47:40 <TreyB> I only have the draft.  You'll have to pay for the real thing.
22:47:40 <rk> :)
22:47:45 <SDO> ouch
22:47:48 <rk> draft sounds good
22:47:56 <rk> might help
22:48:01 <SDO> yep, I'll do with the draft, 16 oz.!
22:48:17 <SDO> URL?
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22:49:44 <TreyB> http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html
22:49:56 <SDO> btw, another link to another mac related OF, http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html
22:50:09 <SDO> TreyB, tanks.
22:50:33 <SDO> rk, ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Literature/ansforth.pdf
22:50:59 <rk> got it!!
22:51:03 <rk> TreyB: thanks alot
22:51:12 <rk> SDO: heh, got it already :) thanks
22:51:20 <SDO> ok
22:51:29 <SDO> so what is the answer, varies?
22:51:55 <rk> dunno yet
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23:02:23 <TreyB> G'night, all.
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23:08:09 <rk> hrm, pforth doesnt have at-xy
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.18