00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.17 00:09:58 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:50:03 --- quit: SDO (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:51:51 --- join: _gps_ (~George@166.70.196.201) joined #forth 00:52:17 aloha 00:52:32 <_gps_> hi 00:53:22 do you play with forth? 00:53:32 <_gps_> yes 00:53:38 really? 00:53:39 how? 00:53:44 <_gps_> I've been going through some books I got from Forth Inc. 00:54:05 oh I see. 00:54:12 for work or for fun? 00:54:25 <_gps_> fun 00:54:37 <_gps_> This is how far I've gotten: http://www.xmission.com/~georgeps/var/Forth_Notes-5.txt 00:54:38 how did you come to hear of it? 00:54:49 <_gps_> The Tcl'ers Wiki. 00:55:07 <_gps_> Someone wrote a mini-Forth in Tcl... 00:55:12 davidw? 00:55:32 <_gps_> no, Richard Suchenwirth, and Jean Claude Wippler. 00:56:29 <_gps_> I then came upon Charles Moore's pages, and read some of the Forth articles. 00:56:42 what did you think? 00:56:50 <_gps_> I like his 1% the code article especially. 00:57:03 <_gps_> I think Forth is really cool based on what I've read. 00:57:40 <_gps_> It's fun to play around with too, and I like the idea of having a compiler available even at runtime. 00:58:30 especially one so close to the metal :) 00:58:54 so you've read about who uses them and what they use it for right? 00:59:36 <_gps_> I glanced at some pages about who uses Forth. 01:00:40 <_gps_> I've been using pForth and Ficl. What do you use? 01:00:49 gforth 01:01:01 the ficl tutorial is pretty good. 01:01:07 which books did you get from forth inc? 01:01:27 Forths Bibles are Starting Forth, and Thinking Forth by Leo Brodie 01:01:31 some swear by it ;) 01:02:14 <_gps_> _Forth Programmer's Handbook_ and _Forth Application Techniques_ 01:02:24 <_gps_> I was thinking about buy the Thinking Forth book. 01:02:47 <_gps_> buy/buying 01:02:53 thinking forth is about the forth way of doing things. 01:05:48 <_gps_> I want to use Forth mainly for graphics. 01:06:10 <_gps_> Which Forth excels at graphics? 01:06:29 tough one. 01:06:34 probably the one you write. 01:06:37 <_gps_> heh 01:07:29 <_gps_> I was thinking about extending Ficl to support an interface to Xlib and OpenGL... 01:07:30 according to forth folklore, when the world was yeared 1980something and all personal computers were slow, people could do 3d animations using forth. 01:11:10 http://www.ynet.com.au/sean/map0.html 01:11:49 hehehe. 01:11:59 you've gotta talk to suprdupr about that when he comes in sometime. 01:12:24 ? 01:12:38 suprdupr of this channel created it. 01:12:52 --- nick: rO|_ -> rO| 01:12:56 ... or at least he knows who did. 01:13:05 created what? 01:13:17 this -> http://www.ynet.com.au/sean/map0.html 01:13:22 sean pringle 01:13:34 <_gps_> That's cool :) 01:15:10 rO| you know about it as well? 01:16:14 i had that idea also in mind, sean was faster 01:16:42 but, i want to come from vrml to cad/cam 01:17:03 for higher levels of abstraction? 01:17:19 yes, several stages 01:17:46 coding c4th in xml atm 01:18:01 at the very beginning... 01:20:02 huh??? 01:20:37 what is not clear to you? 01:20:58 heheh. 01:21:03 coding c4th in xml atm 01:22:05 there's a tool to convert c4th src to html, brought me to the idea.. 01:22:58 the c4th src in xml, i can work on it as a visual tree etc 01:23:44 not jit atm though 01:24:47 but for a beginner like me, good to analyse, understand, look around from different views instantly 01:24:56 nice :-) 01:28:43 would it be executable? 01:29:20 y 01:30:32 would it? 01:31:34 as i said, not jit now. but i will get there 01:32:34 forth words have a tree structure by nature 01:32:45 that's a big advantage 01:32:45 including c4th? 01:33:17 i'm mostly interested in c4th now 01:33:19 --- join: SDO (~beos@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 01:33:30 hi forther 01:33:38 great wisdom in there :-) 01:34:03 too great for newbies like me :) 01:34:26 oh. for sure you're less newbie than me ;-) 01:34:52 in c4th I'm VERY newbie 01:35:12 have you tried winc4th yet? 01:35:23 I installed it, 01:35:31 but i haven't booted into windows since I did. 01:35:48 worked for me right away 01:36:11 that's a plus for newbies, i guess :-) 01:36:49 yes it works in windows with no problems. 01:37:52 <_gps_> Is c4th Color Forth? 01:37:55 since it uses win .dll's it's not a *real* c4th. but still i learn much. to the point i can go for a *real* c4thOS 01:37:58 yes 01:39:20 not an official abbreviation though.. 01:41:23 <_gps_> I see two versions of ColorForth for Windows. Which do you like? 01:41:33 the one that works. 01:41:54 especially if the one that works has a qwerty configuratoin 01:41:56 *ion 01:42:09 unless you use dvorak or whatever it is thats on there. 01:44:47 <_gps_> http://www.geocities.com/eleks_76/color.zip <- seems to be a much different keyboard 01:45:17 non-qwerty? 01:45:59 <_gps_> seems so 01:54:26 is c4th portable? 01:54:34 URL to the c4th site? 01:55:33 http://cflinks.strangegizmo.com/ 01:55:55 is c4th = colorForth? 01:55:58 yes. 01:56:03 portable? not yet. 01:56:10 ah. 01:56:24 yes, I have looked at colorforth, not portable at all, when is ETA on portability? 01:56:26 it is a work in progress. 01:56:51 chuck moore doesn't really believe in portability. 01:56:59 i can't find the exact quote or I'd show you. 01:57:46 I've talked to CM, and yes at this poitn in his life I can't imagine him even being concerned about portability, more like functionality and sales. 01:58:10 you've talked to him? 01:58:10 IMHO, CM should set up a PayPal account and let folks that appreciate his hard work send him 20-50 bucks as gifts. 01:58:29 Yes, and you haven't? He is very accessible. 01:58:37 no i haven't. 01:58:46 you called him or went to visit? 01:58:51 emailed. 01:58:53 he was in this channel a while back. 01:59:05 I threatened a visit once. 01:59:13 heheh. 01:59:23 His wife does some nice wool work weaving, I wonder if she is still alive, I sure hope so. 01:59:30 She is really sweet. 01:59:34 He is a good man too. 01:59:39 why shouldn't she be? 01:59:46 I don't know, I just hope so. 02:00:07 Just like I hope Osamin Bin Laden is dead. 02:00:15 :) just how I feel. 02:00:37 right. 02:00:47 since TINSTAA Osamin ;) 02:00:53 sure Osamin is dead. 02:01:36 http://dec.bournemouth.ac.uk/forth/euro/ef01/oakford01.pdf 02:01:55 Now that is funny. I wonder if the simplicity approach to readings on FORTH is a bonus or makes folks laugh. 02:02:17 I like the conclusion, simple and to the point... "I like it" 02:02:27 :) it just feels good kinda statement. 02:03:40 have you ever read the paper that says systems research is dead? 02:03:44 by robert pike? 02:04:56 Pike wrote about dead systems? 02:04:58 Hmmmmmmm 02:05:07 http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/rob/utah2000.pdf 02:05:09 misquote 02:05:14 'irrelevan't. 02:05:18 not dead. 02:05:36 I have always admired Pike's thinking. 02:05:41 me too. 02:05:52 i have plan9 on two of my other computers. 02:06:04 and I hvae inferno hosted on two others including this one. 02:06:38 you have plan9, cool. I want to run p9 on some hardware. 02:06:43 How do you like it? 02:06:49 it is rather different. 02:06:56 and thats what i wanted :) 02:07:01 I have been looking off and on since 1990/1 at plan9 for black hardware (NeXT) 02:07:19 I use BeOS almost 100% of the time now, and it is different, simple and unloved by many. 02:07:41 I like issolation, especially when it comes to support and such. I don't have 40 different patches to apply :) 02:07:58 I like plan9 so far. 02:08:05 I'd like to delve as deeply into it as I can. 02:08:07 what is its imaging model? 02:08:14 what do you mean? 02:08:31 does it use a 3d layering for presentation of the system, or simple 2d like so many others? 02:08:41 What makes plan9 so 'different' 02:09:09 3d/2d? 02:09:13 everything is a file. 02:09:23 or everything is treated as a file. 02:09:31 BTW, Pike said in Feb of 2000 that "the situation is genuinely bad and requires action", right around when it is generally accepted we started an economic slide and dot.bom bust :) 02:09:32 read/write/ mount/unmount etc. 02:09:35 I wonder if he started it. 02:09:41 hahah 02:10:07 well, UNIX everything is a device/file. 02:10:11 So nothing really new there. 02:10:25 The model is the same as ATT unix and the derived works of BSD and linux. 02:10:29 that doesn't make it unique. 02:10:32 but in unix, things are not quite as uniform 02:10:43 yes, that is true. 02:10:53 also, thompson, ritchie worked on it. 02:10:56 so the congruency is there in plan9, everything is just a stream/device. 02:11:07 no, everything is a file. 02:11:08 did you ever read software tools. 02:11:13 no I didn't. 02:11:18 should I have? 02:11:18 RatFor in particular. 02:11:22 I would hope so. 02:11:25 what about ratfor? 02:11:39 I have never touched fortran 02:11:42 or needed to ... 02:11:44 well, the book was written as I recall with many language versions, but the ratfor was the original as I recall. 02:11:54 http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc/plan9.html 02:11:58 It isn't about touching ratfor, look beyond the obvious :) 02:12:06 thank you for the URL. 02:12:17 it is called 'why plan9' 02:12:18 :) 02:12:30 I'm reading it now. 02:14:15 I love it, "Java is to C++ what Windows is to the Mac", in other words a STEP BACKWARDS 02:14:27 Something I have always stated since first seeing Java in 1994 02:14:31 hehe. 02:14:33 Crap. 02:14:45 Its deluted crap. 02:14:48 their answer to Java is Inferno. 02:16:24 great article/presentation by Pike, right on the money for most of it. 02:16:33 I disagree that Linux is a good proof for his thesis. 02:16:52 whats a better proof if there is any at all? 02:17:20 especially since he states that the software is not improved, but the model is the innovation. Configuration Management and deployment are crucially linked to innovations and development. without you are a one man shop with nobody using your 'great stuff' 02:18:27 Anyway, his point may be right, but using Linux as a support mechanism for his thesis is wrong in light of that Linux however BAD it is, or regurgitating the past (which is true for anything including UNIX) is not correct IMHO :) 02:19:23 Ah, but I agree with him on the 'art is gone' 02:19:27 sd0 he also complains that there were a lot more different things to play with back then. 02:19:33 It died in 1984 with the commercial advent and complexity of the Mac. 02:19:47 a lot of those other things were not open at all, which is why we have such a narrow choice now. 02:20:04 I'd really like the Art part back. 02:20:09 smaller, simpler machines. 02:20:10 Me too. 02:20:15 hence forth :) 02:20:19 no pun intended. 02:20:37 I wish it was, but is that 'art' really our desiring the old school, and what he is really complaining about is the changing of the guards of technology. 02:20:55 changing of the guards? he works for google! 02:21:07 Yes, but I'm talking about the old school, not google. 02:21:22 The way it was, the thing that is familiar, is he really successfully arguing that there is no science today? 02:21:32 the old school had a LOT of fantastic ideas we're blind to today for various reasons. 02:21:36 Maybe, partially, but science is really the art of the sale. 02:21:57 Technology is about selling what people not only can understand, but use. 02:22:33 It isn't about research, although it is nice to move forward, the human can only deal with so much change, science in computers has halted as he puts it, and I claim in a large part that is due to people unable to grasp and handle it as fast as it changes. 02:22:47 I'm a pretty smart guy, not dumb that is for sure, and I have a hard time wanting to even keep up with shit any more. 02:23:10 sd0 but the model of the world you have ... is different from the model thats running around. 02:23:22 the 'art' part is rather pertinent. 02:23:35 to me, a piece of art is usually rendered by one or two people. 02:23:45 in this case, the art is being rendered by 1000's. 02:23:47 I dont' disagree, I have desired the art for a while, the feeling of a integration of my thougt and what comes to be that the computer does. 02:23:57 good point, and way to sloppy. 02:24:04 That is an excellent example, thank you. 02:24:17 art is usually rendered by a few, and software is slopped together by the masses. 02:24:25 I think that sums up how I feel exactly. 02:24:30 well stated! :) 02:24:50 it is the difference between carving a canoe and building a nuclear powered war ship. 02:25:00 I wanna build canoes. 02:25:17 I am building 'art' again, literally. 02:25:46 SDO also, there aren't that many really interesting ideas coming out. 02:25:46 I'm using computers to do music, not just mp3 ripping or dvd encoding, I'm doing IF building with TADS on BeOS, and this system is evolving to me as time goes along. 02:26:05 plan9 extends the idea of piping a little. 02:26:24 I would argue that over the past 15 years not much has happened or been interesting to me except NeXT/OS and FORTH and Smalltalk :) 02:26:34 I definitely will look again at p9 02:26:57 sd0 if you can't install p9 and you have a linux or windows box, I think you can try out Inferno on there. 02:27:05 I downloaded all the ps files in 1991 I could find and read on it. But then it was WAY to young for me to spend time on, I was in college doing MultiMedia stuff on NeXT/Mac and having a blast with it. :) 02:27:19 hehehe. 02:27:45 I see he is a realist still, more so. 02:27:55 I'll have to look for the NeXT black hardware install for p9. 02:28:16 I'd like to find a second edition plan9 cd. 02:28:33 its the only other os that runs natively on the indigo2 afaik (or have heard) 02:28:43 aside irix of course ... 02:29:48 ahhhhhh, I love his point about folks coming to the lab and being 'fixed' on tools they used and not exploring. 02:29:52 So very very true, and sad. 02:30:10 the lack of mastery and skill is at the root of that problem. 02:30:29 definitely chasing the buck issue. 02:30:58 but then again, can't blame someone for wanting to solve problems, and not research. 02:32:15 research might be a little dry you know? 02:32:30 it didn't take 'research' to come up with pipes in unix! 02:32:52 or C or unix itself for that matter! 02:33:42 it also didn't take research to come up with smalltalk of all things. 02:33:55 a strong enough challenge to Kay forced the idea out of him. 02:34:24 I prefer 'exploration' or vision ... 02:34:30 I'd have to say the same of forth. 02:35:01 LOL, his truth about money flow is great, especially with Stanford, and isn't it Stanford that has major investment issues now, like 400+ million kinda lost lately :) 02:35:12 lost? 02:35:16 where did it go to? 02:35:18 in stock markets. 02:35:21 funds. 02:35:22 Oh. 02:35:23 gone 02:35:27 bad investments? 02:35:32 marginal investment policy. 02:35:34 well, its alumni populated the ranks of the .com ... 02:35:35 :) 02:35:40 .bomb. 02:35:45 dot plop 02:35:46 .kaboom :) 02:35:53 dot plop flush. 02:36:06 no processing needed, it will always be shit. 02:36:12 heheh. 02:36:44 Oh I love his view, goldrushes leave ghosttowns, be prepared to move in. 02:36:49 :) that is very prophetic. 02:36:58 and also simply derived from past. 02:37:14 One thing I believe in since 1995/6, si that when we forget where we come from, we are on our way back. 02:37:30 I truly believe the 90s and partially the 80s we saw folks forgetting where we were at just days before. 02:37:42 the 90s was just over accelerated, in large part due to Netscrape. 02:37:48 does it follow that in order to go back, we simply forget? ;) 02:37:56 Marc Andresson is IMHO the modern day Devil. 02:38:02 Is he now? 02:38:07 he didn't invent netscrape! 02:38:07 LOL 02:38:17 along with Bill Gates. 02:38:20 :) brothers in arms. 02:38:21 he came up with that predecessor and people wanted to make money off it. 02:38:28 He allowed it. 02:38:31 Just as bad. 02:38:34 aha, yet another example of art! 02:38:43 the science did not come up with that! 02:38:46 So, art should not be capitalized? 02:38:57 well, not all things are capitalizable. 02:39:01 art is always a reflection of society. 02:39:27 but is that due to the wealth of the few, or cause it reflects current trends. 02:39:47 arts florish during good times, and suffer when not, but how does that influence the artists. 02:40:27 I dunno. 02:40:38 I'm not against being committed to doing research for the sake of advancing the art/science... 02:40:39 the badtimes fuel the art for later. 02:40:50 Yes, and thus we have cycles, and they are good IMHO. 02:41:13 Pike argues about 'committment' to going the long term projects. 02:41:20 cycles can be significantly dampened though. 02:41:42 With time compression, due to economics, there is a point where if we can't make money (which seems to be now) we step back and reassess our values and purpose. 02:42:20 In many ways, there is a renaissance going on right now. 02:42:34 There is with me. 02:42:45 how so? 02:42:48 with your music? 02:42:53 I have since 1994 been evaluating my purposes in life, and mostly in the arts of software. 02:43:04 Bah. there is no purpose! 02:43:07 LOL 02:43:11 we have to create a purpose!!! 02:43:18 sure there is, if for no other reason to entertain my mind. 02:43:22 those who do, have followers. 02:43:29 I didn't create the need or desire to be a thinker. 02:43:48 I however have had to reprogram myself to NOT have to create or have purpose. 02:43:50 sd0 btw there is a fellow in #squeak who plays music as well 02:43:56 Yes, I know him. 02:44:00 Craig and I are friends. 02:44:00 ah n/m then. 02:44:04 :) 02:44:09 :) thanks for the pointer. 02:44:14 he and I go back a few years. 02:44:17 ah okay. 02:44:28 I can't go to #squeak. 02:44:34 LOL< have you been banned? 02:44:38 water wo'nt answer my questions. 02:44:40 foul mouthing ST'ers. 02:44:41 nah. 02:44:55 ST-80 == water? 02:45:01 no. 02:45:07 water == water. 02:45:09 is there a character there named water. 02:45:10 he is usually in there. 02:45:13 yep. 02:45:25 he is working on arrow for tunes 02:45:27 Ah, I thought you were metaphorically using a term that maybe ST-80 was dilluted somehow. 02:45:29 arrow/slate 02:45:40 hehehe. not at all. 02:45:52 ST is purity and lovely :) Much like forth, I'm very much into both. 02:45:54 I don't think st-80 has been dilluted by squeak. 02:45:59 I don't either. 02:46:07 I SMILE bigtime when I look at Squeak. 02:46:09 it is the same image more or less. 02:46:11 It is simply amazing. 02:46:19 it is, but it is also very confusing. 02:46:36 yes, it can be. 02:46:45 for the first point, most folks don't undertand objects. 02:46:52 That is the real issue I believe. 02:46:58 Then with any LARGE system it is overwhelming. 02:47:08 it deserves to be studied. 02:47:13 yes, it does. 02:47:20 It commands respect. 02:47:24 for me, the biggest annoyance is that I can't just type everything into one file. 02:47:28 Not many techonologies today do that. 02:47:48 hehehe, my point exactly, LOL. 02:47:49 which also means, I can't just read one file and pretend to understand whats going on. 02:48:05 I believe you must understand objects, but the legacy of monolithic thinking is part of the problem. 02:48:12 However, you can type things into ONE fiel if you like. 02:48:17 then read it in. 02:48:18 LOL 02:48:21 heheh. 02:48:22 it does allow you this. 02:48:41 I thought of putting tags into my source files so that it just puts them in where it wants. 02:48:52 haven't chased it any further though. 02:49:06 currently, I'm quite enchanted by k 02:49:32 I emailed Alan about 2 years ago, we met and talked in 2000 at OOPSLA for about 2 hours. 02:49:51 I asked him what book (ONE BOOK) to read to help me think the way he does... I wanted to know morea bout him. 02:49:58 hahaha. 02:49:59 And also about systems in general. 02:50:07 he is a big systems person. 02:50:10 Guess what book he recommended, and I bought the next day. 02:50:18 and he is right that it isn't taught, or hardly taught AT ALL! 02:50:24 lemme guess... 02:50:27 hmmmmmmmmm. 02:50:42 nah. 02:50:44 I give up. 02:50:55 he has a booklist under squealand.org 02:51:18 wait ... 02:51:20 papert? 02:51:30 Nope, but I have his works. :) 02:51:32 mindstorms??? 02:51:34 oh. 02:51:45 what book then? 02:51:49 where is alans bioreading list? 02:52:00 one sec. 02:52:00 I am to find if the book he recommended is on the list before I tell you. :) 02:53:29 http://www.squeakland.org/sqmedia/books/book_list.html 02:53:59 not lateral thinking is it? 02:54:38 crap, he didn't even list it :) I feel jipped :) LOL 02:54:52 so whats it called then? 02:54:54 Maybe I'm privvy or he fucked with me LOL 02:54:57 The Cell 02:55:01 the cell? 02:55:06 Its a 1200 page biology book. 02:55:06 ah I should have guessed. 02:55:15 now I feel a little dumb. 02:55:18 Yep, he said read it and you will understnad more about me and why I think the way I do than any other book. 02:55:38 he studied microbiology in school 02:56:09 the model for smalltalk objects come from that. 02:56:27 I read about that in Dealers of Lightening. 02:56:29 Yes he did. 02:56:30 :) 02:56:55 So I went and bought it, and revisited my MicroBio in college :) As well as macro. 02:57:02 I found it entertaining to say the least. 02:57:17 I"m going to try to read micro-bio soon too but for a different reason. 02:57:20 Smalltalk and Squeak are modeled after it like no other. 02:57:37 really? then you can't feel jipped! 02:57:52 well, I guess I don't feel jipped other than he didn't list it in the titles :) 02:58:05 have you heard of darwin's blackbox? 02:58:33 nope. 02:58:43 it is by a guy called Behe . 02:58:45 I'm looking over that list of books Alan put out, and i have to say indeed it is rather non-linear. 02:58:53 hahaha 02:58:58 I'm going to have to start looking for some of them and read them. 02:59:12 darwins' blackbox is an anti blind watchmaker of sorts. 02:59:17 I also just sent Alan another email asking for sabbatical time w/him and his group for 1-2 years :) 02:59:26 I think it is time I go and study him in person. 02:59:27 LOL 02:59:45 hehe. 02:59:46 work for food and drink. 02:59:47 hehehehe 02:59:54 shelter?? 02:59:55 hell, why not, can't find a job elsewhere. 03:00:00 I sleep in my car. 03:00:03