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02:28:28 <Stepan> moin
02:28:33 <Stepan> how's life?
02:31:06 <ian_p> its life
02:34:15 <Stepan> damn i almost melt
03:32:01 <Stepan> is there something like a default: clause in case constructs?
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15:49:30 * suprdupr got a old 2100 netwinder StrongARM based computer with ethernet, 6495MB 2.5" HD for 5$ LOL
15:49:57 * suprdupr need a 12v 1.7a peak power supply though, and got all interesting datasheets
15:52:35 <suprdupr> the strongarm sa-110 is in a couple of handheld devices iirc
15:52:48 <suprdupr> anyway a bargain =)
16:06:02 <kc5tja> re
16:08:08 * kc5tja is studying various continuously variable transmissions.
16:09:01 <kc5tja> One that appears to be dead simple to build (even for a small-time hacker like me) and offers exceptional results, despite total lack of controlling electronics and mechanical linkages, is the Constantinesco Torque Converter.
16:09:31 * kc5tja has found only one other CVT that is even close to the CTC in mechanical simplicity and elegance.
16:15:45 * suprdupr is reading about CVTs since he don't have a 12V 1.5A power supply nearby
16:18:06 <kc5tja> http://fluid.power.net/fpn/const/const005.html -- This is the Constantinesco torque converter.  This is the very definition of elegance, I think.
16:18:34 <kc5tja> Fully automatic transmission, long before control electronics and vacuum actuated clutching was invented or economical.
16:19:28 <kc5tja> http://www.lestraneng.com/ -- if there was a rotary equivalent to the Constantinesco unit, this is it.
16:20:20 <kc5tja> The only thing I don't like about it is that it uses a somewhat complicated set of gearing on the input side, which wastes some amount of power.  Otherwise, it's every bit as simple as the Constantinesco unit.
16:22:35 <suprdupr> the later one is interesting, and easier to picture
16:22:58 <kc5tja> Interesting; I found the Constantinesco unit to be easier to picture.
16:23:01 <kc5tja> And demonstrate.
16:23:30 <suprdupr> i dont understand it yet
16:23:39 <kc5tja> Have you ever "bent a pencil" before?
16:23:57 <suprdupr> i get the phase idea easly, maybe not how te phase change is done..
16:24:06 <suprdupr> yes
16:24:14 <kc5tja> It works on exactly the same principle.
16:24:25 <kc5tja> There is no phase change in the Constantinesco unit.
16:24:55 <kc5tja> The faster you reciprocate the pencil, the further away from your fingers the pivot point is.
16:25:12 <kc5tja> Same thing with the Constantinesco transmission.
16:25:34 <kc5tja> The faster the engine wobbles the pendulum, the farther away from its pivot the fulcrum of movement is.
16:26:05 <kc5tja> This effectively changes the lengths of the levers used to actuate the output shaft, and hence, the amount of torque produced.
16:27:29 <suprdupr> the story behind fig 21 is hilarious
16:27:39 <suprdupr> i start to undertand, but i would need an animation
16:27:39 <kc5tja> In the case of the Lester transmission, it uses centripetal forces to achieve torque control.
16:28:05 <kc5tja> suprdupr: You can do one better.  Play with the concept with a butter knife.  It becomes much more vivid there.
16:28:59 <kc5tja> With the Lester transmission, fill a soda bottle with water, and tie a rope to it.
16:29:07 <kc5tja> Then start to swing it over your head.
16:29:18 <suprdupr> fig 28 is great also
16:29:20 <kc5tja> At (relatively) low speeds, it doesn't do much, except keep the rope taught.
16:29:43 <suprdupr> i think i get the center of gravity phase variance effect
16:29:45 <kc5tja> But the faster you spin it, the more it wants to spin you back - that's the effect it uses.
16:29:46 <suprdupr> i can imagine it
16:30:26 <suprdupr> spin me back?
16:30:33 <kc5tja> What I like about both of these transmissions, is that it's entirely Forth philosophy applied to mechanical engineering.
16:30:37 <suprdupr> just more centripedal "force"
16:30:39 <kc5tja> Equal and opposite reactions.
16:31:01 <suprdupr> i dont get the spin me back part
16:31:19 <kc5tja> When you spin the bottle fast, there is a centripetal force on the rope.
16:31:21 <suprdupr> yeah it seems elegant and the demonstrations seem impressive
16:31:46 <kc5tja> If you were to let go of the rope, the bottle would proceed in a straight line tangent to where it was.
16:32:04 <suprdupr> our teacher told us that it wasnt a "true" force, because of some thing i cant remember
16:32:06 <kc5tja> But if you don't let go of the rope, but relax a bit, it will want to pull you along with it.
16:32:15 <suprdupr> kk
16:32:23 <kc5tja> suprdupr: Wrong force.  Centripetal force exists.  Centrifugal force does not.
16:33:15 <kc5tja> Proof: an object doesn't accelerate unless a force is acting on it.  The water bottle is going in a circle, hence it's always accelerating towards the center of rotation.  Consequently, centripetal force must be a force directed towards the center of the torque.
16:33:56 <kc5tja> That force is what keeps the rope taught.
16:33:56 <suprdupr> thats eaxctly why it is a strange force since the acc. vector is always rotating but the module is the same
16:34:03 <kc5tja> Module?
16:34:14 <suprdupr> intensity
16:34:25 <suprdupr> i thought  it was the same in french/english
16:34:26 <kc5tja> But you can feel the force when you spin the bottle.
16:35:00 <kc5tja> Well, because the object's velocity is always changing.
16:35:15 <kc5tja> Velocity is not just speed; it a speed in a certain direction.
16:35:29 <kc5tja> And if said direction is always changing, then velocity must also be changing.
16:36:00 <kc5tja> Hence, it must be accelerating, and hence, it must have a force applied to it.
16:36:35 <suprdupr> kk thanks for clarifying, im not familiar with english physics vocabulary
16:37:01 <kc5tja> n/p
16:37:28 <suprdupr> in the Const. CVT or CCVT, the pendulum got a mass at one end and a fixed point?
16:37:53 <kc5tja> Yes, the mass is at the end of the pendulum.
16:37:59 <kc5tja> As with a clock's pendulum.
16:38:53 <kc5tja> There's one good advantage to the Constantinesco torque converter -- the patents have all expired.  >:)
16:39:31 <suprdupr> i dont get the part between the fixed point and the motor point
16:39:41 <suprdupr> the load is connected to that
16:40:20 <kc5tja> The load, the motor, and the weight are all connected to the same beam.
16:40:41 <kc5tja> That beam pivots around the motor's connection, but remember that the motor's connection moves up and down too.
16:41:02 <kc5tja> (and yes, it's a hard thing to envision, because there are three concurrently independent degrees of motion all at the same time)
16:41:10 <kc5tja> So it's easier if you fix one point
16:41:18 <kc5tja> Here's how I finally realized how it worked.
16:41:32 <kc5tja> Take a butter knife, and hold the tip of the blade between your index finger and thumb.
16:41:44 <kc5tja> Hold (or try to ;) ) that tip as tightly as you can.
16:42:16 <kc5tja> Next, with your other hand, place the blade of the knife between your index and middle fingers, above 2cm down from the tip.
16:42:37 <kc5tja> Then, start to sway the knife back and forth slowly (very slowly).
16:42:50 <kc5tja> Note that the knife starts to swing back and forth relatively easily.
16:43:00 <kc5tja> This represents the "idle" position of a gear box, more or less.
16:43:12 <kc5tja> Next, increase the frequency of reciprocation.
16:43:42 <kc5tja> The faster you go, the harder it is to hold on to that tip, because the tip is generating a lot of force.  :)
16:44:03 <suprdupr> haaaaaaaaa ;p
16:44:12 <suprdupr> who need java apps now lol
16:44:17 <kc5tja> Heheh :D
16:44:30 * kc5tja is thinking of writing a simulator for this type of CVT though, because I would love to build one.
16:44:37 <suprdupr> just what i was going to write
16:44:38 <kc5tja> I want to make sure I get the masses and whatnot right.
16:45:07 <suprdupr> would it be useful in a generator?
16:45:15 <kc5tja> I believe so.
16:45:21 <kc5tja> Especially with a Stirling engine.
16:45:22 <suprdupr> if the load is constant?
16:45:42 <kc5tja> The more load you put on the generator, the slower it will want to run, so the torque converter can make up for losses.
16:46:05 <suprdupr> http://www.internetfred.com/maggy.html
16:46:07 <suprdupr> ;o)
16:46:19 <kc5tja> Well, if the load is constant, why not just build the generator for the engine, and skip the whole transmission?  It's when you have (a) an engine that doesn't like to be throttled, and (b) a widely changing load that such CVTs are particularly useful.
16:46:39 <suprdupr> k
16:47:11 * kc5tja wants to build a CCVT for use in a bike, because it's when you're going up a hill that you need to change gears the most.
16:47:12 * suprdupr is tryng the constantinesco name in his head for future awkward references ;o)
16:47:16 <kc5tja> But you don't want to lose your momentum either.
16:47:22 <suprdupr> !! great idea!!
16:47:52 <kc5tja> I've looked at tons of other CVT designs, but the CCVT design is the *only* one that is feasible, mechanically simple enough, and potentially light weight enough to work.
16:48:08 <kc5tja> (even though it does add weight to the bike, I don't think it'll be noticed unless you're really into racing.)
16:48:18 <suprdupr> k what are the parameters, aside from material stress capabilities?
16:48:20 <kc5tja> And here in California, there are so many steep hills, that I think it'll be a net-win.
16:48:28 <kc5tja> I'm not sure.
16:48:36 <kc5tja> That's why I want to build a simulator and try building my won.
16:48:36 <kc5tja> own
16:49:02 * kc5tja hasn't found a single design document on this transmission type yet.
16:49:06 <kc5tja> I'm sure they exist though.
16:49:17 <kc5tja> They're just not online.
16:49:48 <suprdupr> did you looked at the constant mechanical load electrical generator?
16:50:03 <kc5tja> Not yet.
16:50:10 <suprdupr> simple project to show that electrical work and mechanical work are not the same thing
16:50:24 <kc5tja> Then the coupling is inefficient.
16:50:35 <kc5tja> Work is work is work, regardless of what form it is in.
16:53:26 <suprdupr> W and HP are different
16:53:40 <kc5tja> Nope
16:53:46 <kc5tja> 746 W = 1 HP
16:54:51 <suprdupr> distance term in electrical work?
16:56:04 <kc5tja> Yes.
16:56:35 <kc5tja> Basic, every day physics.
16:56:49 * kc5tja notes the o-scope traces of his generator lies more than 50% at 0V.
16:57:37 <kc5tja> E.g., no power generated.
16:58:00 <kc5tja> And if no power is generated, none can be consumed.  Hence, no load on the motor shaft.  Hence the "appearance" of a lack of coupling.
16:59:42 <suprdupr> coupling between?
17:00:26 <kc5tja> Power in (from motor) = power out (from generator) + heat
17:00:39 <kc5tja> Obviously, the more efficient the generator, the less heat.
17:01:51 <kc5tja> Since the output of his oscilloscope trace is more than 50% at 0V, it follows he's dumping at least half of his motor's shaft power into heating the air (fans, contrary to popular belief, do not cool the air -- they circulate it.  Temperature is defined as the average speed of molecules.  Hence, faster moving air is hotter air).
17:03:13 <suprdupr> but the thing is that the guy shorts the coil and there's no load on the motor, he also plugs leds and no load noticed
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17:03:32 <kc5tja> Now, that being said, I think his generator design is interesting.  It separates the magnetic field from the rotor in an interesting manner.  With our field separators (to make up for its current inefficiency), it could make a decent automotive alternator.
17:03:46 <kc5tja> LEDs is not a load.
17:03:47 <kc5tja> :)
17:03:57 <kc5tja> And shorting a generator that produces mere milliamps of current is not a load.
17:04:07 <kc5tja> I want to see that thing try to power, oh, say, a TV.
17:04:19 <kc5tja> Or even a simple QRP-rated ham radio.
17:04:23 <kc5tja> It simply won't.
17:04:28 <kc5tja> I guarantee you, it'll stall, and stall hard.
17:09:22 <suprdupr> it looks like the intereference disk generator by al francoeur
17:09:35 <suprdupr> but with a shaped blade
17:09:42 <kc5tja> Also, he openly claims that he doesn't have an RPM guage.  Knowing motor RPM during the various testing conditions is critical, because angular velocity is an important factor in determining power transfer (power is defined as joules per second, and angular velocity is measured in revolutions per second, so there is a relationship :) )
17:12:08 <suprdupr> k ill try to do my tests
17:12:18 <suprdupr> i have a dc motor driver chip ill get out of a vcr
17:13:11 <suprdupr> i have the datasheet, so ill be able tu run it through a wall adapter along with a onboard ATTiny
17:13:11 <kc5tja> ATTiny?
17:13:12 <suprdupr> this little mcu got a pwm output also, and a timer
17:13:20 <suprdupr> AVR microcontroller
17:13:22 <kc5tja> Ahh
17:13:36 <suprdupr> 8 pins, internal calibrated oscillator
17:13:50 <suprdupr> 1.8MHZ 1 cycle per instructions
17:13:58 <suprdupr> 3 for calls 4 for rets
17:14:01 <suprdupr> 4 for ints
17:14:08 * kc5tja nods
17:14:10 <suprdupr> 2 for jumps
17:14:31 <suprdupr> i love the AVR, kicks PIC's ass in programmability
17:15:18 * kc5tja nods
17:15:23 <suprdupr> along with the netwinder i got a waterpick oral higiene system, a 300 watt filtro brand cornpopper and a hairdryer
17:15:41 <suprdupr> all for 20$ in a bardboard box
17:15:43 <suprdupr> =)
17:15:54 <suprdupr> left over sale form an auction house
17:16:05 * kc5tja nods
17:16:30 <suprdupr> the cornpopper is a nichrome wire in a ceramic labyrinth pathway
17:16:44 * suprdupr instantly thought: party vaporizer
17:17:12 <suprdupr> ill try it with large quantities of green tea and salvia divonorum leaf, maybe it was the thing i needed
17:19:08 <suprdupr> the netburner is sooooo nice, ill try to start form scratch using datasheets, linux kernel source and a minimalist forth
17:19:22 <suprdupr> word entry is still puzzling me
17:19:32 <suprdupr> chuck found an efficient solution
17:19:46 <suprdupr> but there might be a better thing
17:20:51 <suprdupr> packing written words inside dwords is great, always 4/8bytes chunks to deal with
17:21:15 <suprdupr> im more and more thinking about using a large stack as a copy/paste area
17:21:22 <suprdupr> even keybaord i/o
17:21:52 <suprdupr> every char just stack up on the stack
17:22:11 <suprdupr> sure a byte access mechanism is used, some might think of it as inneficient
17:22:25 <suprdupr> but on x86 theres a lot of dedicated opcode space just for 8 bit operations
17:22:41 * suprdupr tought yesterday about a 8bit only forth for x86
17:22:48 <suprdupr> contiki is ported to x86 btw
17:22:58 <suprdupr> might be of great inspiration although its c code ;p
17:23:55 * suprdupr just lloked at the datasheets and even his old netburner got the VLSI chips needed for tv output, but only has a vga port
17:24:15 <suprdupr> nwer versions got tv output, even crusoe processors
17:24:32 <suprdupr> anyway ill hack it if i can get a power supply
17:24:38 <suprdupr> the chips can capture video =)))
17:25:02 <suprdupr> i just hope the ide chip got 48 bits adressing
17:25:21 <suprdupr> i could switch hardrives and put my current machine hd into the netburner
17:25:22 <suprdupr> 20 gig
17:25:30 <suprdupr> swapped with 6 gig
17:25:38 <suprdupr> i dont need 20 gigs on this machine
17:26:02 <suprdupr> it got a tulip network card
17:26:08 <suprdupr> 10/100baset
17:26:18 <suprdupr> along with another 10baset one
17:26:46 <suprdupr> could even hook a cdrom drive to it with a 2.5 to 3.5" adapter!!!!
17:27:14 <suprdupr> hahaha possibilities are endless really, i love the big cap feature for date keeping
17:27:29 * kc5tja nods
17:27:38 <suprdupr> even got an external interrupt source: big orange button on the side
17:27:41 <kc5tja> Well, I think I'm going to jet.
17:27:58 <suprdupr> bye!
17:28:00 <kc5tja> I need to shower and run some errands.
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17:53:55 <Forther> hello
17:54:01 <Forther> I miss Susanne already.
17:56:18 <suprdupr> hi
17:58:13 <Forther> hi
17:58:19 <Forther> I have a question, morbid kinda.
17:59:00 <Forther> to anyone that wants to chat about it, I'm wondering what will happen to the commercial Forth community when Elizabeth passes on?
17:59:20 <Forther> What would happen to Forth Inc.?  And all the commercial accounts?  Any thoughts on this?
17:59:41 <Forther> Is Forth Inc insulated enough from Elizabeth to be self sustaining?
18:03:38 <suprdupr> i dont really bother
18:04:10 <Forther> I didn't mean to offend anyone, just thinking that Gregory Hinds just passed on at 57, was thinking that Elizabeth is abut that age, we are all mortal, and then the thoughts of Forth commercially came to mind.  I don't see any other leaders in the community commercially at least.
18:04:15 <Forther> oh well, just a thought.
18:04:35 <suprdupr> forth is a disruptive technology
18:04:41 <Forther> It is?
18:04:44 <Forther> how so?
18:05:18 <Forther> does it require people to think?
18:05:31 <suprdupr> http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:ic9riDMKfZ8J:www.msmisp.com/futuretest/Forth%27s_Dilemma.htm+forth+disruptive+dilemma&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
18:05:39 <suprdupr> the page is dead, it was alive yesterday
18:05:47 <Forther> I got it.
18:06:11 <suprdupr> i posted about it on a yahoo group... hope it didnt attracted bad attention ;p
18:06:30 <Forther> Is the yahoo group alive?
18:06:30 <suprdupr> forth in essence cant be commercial in our world
18:06:45 <Forther> What is the bottomline on why it can't be?
18:07:14 <Forther> I'm kinda perplexed by that statement, however right or wrong it may be.
18:07:23 <Forther> I see forth every single day when I boot up a mac.
18:07:35 <Forther> that is fairly successful commericial exposure.
18:07:43 <Forther> But not at the application developers level.
18:07:53 <suprdupr> exaclty, excentricity
18:08:01 <Forther> Yes.
18:08:06 <Forther> I agree with you.
18:08:07 <suprdupr> i wont go on mac cause it got a usable forth from boot
18:08:17 <Forther> LOL
18:08:19 <suprdupr> i got a netburner with a flashable rom
18:08:26 <suprdupr> for 5$ today
18:08:27 <Forther> what is a netburner?
18:08:36 <Forther> modem?
18:08:40 <suprdupr> small appliance
18:08:44 <Forther> neato!
18:08:47 <Forther> FleeBay!
18:09:02 <Forther> I just bought 2 pairs of used levis for 26 bucks, 6 delivered.
18:09:03 <suprdupr> 2 different ethernet cards, 6 gig harddrive, strongARM sa-110 processor
18:09:08 <Forther> I don't even have to shop online, just fleebay it.
18:09:12 <Forther> wow!
18:09:15 <Forther> that is impressive.
18:09:19 <suprdupr> i got it from a leftover auction house
18:09:25 <Forther> Any more?
18:09:26 <suprdupr> yeah the guy wanted to get rid of it
18:09:31 <suprdupr> nope sorry ;p
18:09:33 <Forther> :(
18:09:38 <Forther> sell it to me for 10 bucks.
18:09:48 <Forther> become a 10 dollarair
18:10:01 <suprdupr> where do you live?
18:10:04 <Forther> CO
18:10:05 <Forther> USA
18:10:22 <Forther> I'm just curious, does it have FORTH in it?
18:10:26 <Forther> at some openfirmware level?
18:10:35 <suprdupr> nope but its using Linux
18:10:36 <Forther> or just a PC kinda thing, like an I-Opener?
18:10:40 <Forther> Neat!
18:10:42 <suprdupr> ill try to put a forth in it
18:10:54 <suprdupr> yeah it got a vga port and the cips support tv-output
18:11:02 <Forther> nice!
18:11:06 <suprdupr> i got all the datasheets needed to implement forth on bare metal
18:11:14 <Forther> use it as a basic decoder for divx with forth (no OS) and it should do well!
18:11:33 <Forther> neat, so this is a project then, I'm anxious to see your pages for it when yo uget the details online and the forth rolling!
18:11:38 <suprdupr> i thought of those things, capabilities are almost endless
18:11:42 <suprdupr> it even got a soundcard =)
18:11:54 <suprdupr> sound chip with crappy speaker and no jack
18:11:54 <Forther> I think it would be cool to make a forth for it, and then do the DivX decoder and make it work for a living on your TV set.
18:12:03 <Forther> oh
18:12:04 <Forther> too bad.
18:12:09 <suprdupr> especially like the fact that its arm
18:12:10 <Forther> No jack sucks.
18:12:17 <suprdupr> the GBA is arm based as many other handhelds
18:12:23 <suprdupr> can solder one ;o)
18:12:52 <Forther> I have a simple bookPC I bought for 75 bucks about 2.5 years ago, I'm putting a 120 gig HD in to it, and making it work doing DivX for a living.
18:12:53 <Forther> :)
18:13:13 <Forther> have it do DivX movie downloads all the time, and have this 200+ movie archive.
18:13:24 <suprdupr> great, i hope it supports 48 bits adressing at the IDE level
18:13:25 <Forther> I have tons of DVDs too that I can rip in the background on super low priority too.
18:13:42 <Forther> Nah, but I'll just do two 60 gig volumes.
18:13:59 <suprdupr> kk
18:14:05 <Forther> I'm not doing it with forth, just a crappy simple OS and some layer on top of it.
18:14:18 <Forther> I was thinking that your CPU is likely too slow to do an OS and then some player on top of it.
18:14:19 <suprdupr> im thinking about a 8 bit os for the x86
18:14:25 <suprdupr> forth based
18:14:28 <suprdupr> contiki is ported
18:14:29 <Forther> That is why I mentioned the lowlevel dedicated forth for it.
18:14:35 <Forther> contiki?
18:14:39 <suprdupr> it was meant for the C64
18:14:40 <Forther> I'm not familiar, other than with Disney.
18:14:49 <Forther> tiki tiki house.
18:14:50 <Forther> ;)
18:15:03 <suprdupr> http://www.dunkels.com/adam/contiki/
18:15:11 <suprdupr> the guy does minimalist c programming
18:15:21 <Forther> nice!
18:15:22 <suprdupr> primarly for 8 bits environments
18:15:23 <Forther> I like him already.
18:15:28 <Forther> I see it is on the Apple II.
18:15:32 <Forther> I'm going to have to take a look at it!
18:15:58 <suprdupr> I downloaded the port, just want to look how he handles events and stuff
18:17:12 <Forther> I think that is really cool, I wonder if it is keyboard based only or can do event handling.
18:17:31 <Forther> I want to find out if that works on a IIGS also.
18:17:34 <Forther> what a neat idea!
18:17:37 <Forther> GemOS kinda
18:17:43 <Forther> well, maybe more like TOS
18:18:26 <Forther> No way, it is on a GAMEBOY?
18:18:30 <Forther> LOL, now that is fun!
18:20:51 <suprdupr> im still tackling the problem of simple and efficient keyboard input processing for a relatime forth prompt
18:23:23 <suprdupr> realtime means interactive
18:23:50 <suprdupr> a prompt is truly not what i need, a block editor is what's needed
18:24:05 <suprdupr> anyway ill try to come up with something i got to go
18:24:07 <suprdupr> see ya!
18:24:17 <Forther> later
18:24:28 <Forther> thanks for the kontiki link.
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18:25:51 <Forther> Sad to see Kontiki is not yet able to do PPP dialup, but it is in the works.  Glad it can do it over serial lines, meaning we can dial up with a old apple IIe or //e enhanced and get online and surf.  Funny thing si that the modem, say a v-everything modem will cost 80-100 bucks for a quality one, and the machine is free basically, and so is the OS.
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21:28:39 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja re: concurrent window systems.
21:28:54 <gilbertdeb> how might such an idea be approached in forth?
21:29:56 <kc5tja> I've already given my approach.
21:30:19 <gilbertdeb> I was thinking concurrency IN forth.
21:30:33 <gilbertdeb> but I don't think I've seen/heard of a concurrent forth yet.
21:30:36 <kc5tja> An application is N tasks; each input event type is handled by precisely onetask.
21:30:48 <kc5tja> ColorForth is multitasking.
21:31:56 <gilbertdeb> Natively?
21:32:10 <kc5tja> Yes
21:32:14 <kc5tja> So will FS/Forth.
21:32:28 <kc5tja> Any Forth that supports the PAUSE word is likely to support multitasking.
21:32:48 <gilbertdeb> are multitasking and concurrency necessarily the same?
21:33:13 <gilbertdeb> when I think of multitasking, i think big unix multiuser os.
21:33:33 <gilbertdeb> maybe it is time to unite the two images?
21:33:41 <gilbertdeb> ie in my mind.
21:33:45 <kc5tja> All multitasking is is the ability to run more than one independent "task" (nearly) at the same time as others.
21:34:16 <gilbertdeb> yes yes. to offer the illusion of doing more than one thing at once.
21:34:34 <kc5tja> Yup.
21:34:53 <kc5tja> Unix heavyweight processes represents one end of the concurrency spectrum.
21:35:04 <gilbertdeb> ah okay.
21:35:05 <kc5tja> Multithreading represents the other side.
21:35:26 <kc5tja> Then you get true concurrent systems, where each task is allocated its own CPU.
21:35:57 <kc5tja> But even here, with a finite number of CPUs available, task switching must still be employed to multiplex the available hardware against the available tasks to be run.
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22:19:19 <Serg_Penguin> hi
22:23:54 <kc5tja> re
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22:45:28 <Serg_Penguin> kc5tja: how is your work and money problems ?
22:46:00 <kc5tja> Omnipresent, as usual.
22:46:19 * kc5tja is consulting with a potential client tomorrow, but nothing is guaranteed.
22:46:40 <kc5tja> If I get the job, I might get about $250 or so out of it -- maybe less, depending on what the customer actually wants.
22:47:01 <Serg_Penguin> what is living minimum in your area ?
22:47:10 <kc5tja> About $2000/month.
22:47:20 <Serg_Penguin> YEAH :)))
22:47:31 <kc5tja> ??
22:47:38 <Serg_Penguin> here my 500$ is not to say rich but above average ;(
22:48:06 * kc5tja is currently making only $1330 or so on unemployment, so I'm way below this region's average.
22:48:12 <kc5tja> This is why I'm looking to move to San Diego.
22:48:48 <kc5tja> Though San Diego is technically more expensive to live (well, it's about the same now), the house I'm moving into has four more roommates than I currently have, so it'll cut my net monthly expenses.
22:49:08 <Serg_Penguin> roommates ?
22:49:20 <Serg_Penguin> you live w/ many men in a room ?
22:49:33 <kc5tja> Not a room, a house or apartment.
22:49:46 <kc5tja> And not always men either.
22:50:29 <Serg_Penguin> then u said 'roommates', i thunk of two-storey barrack beds ;(
22:50:42 <kc5tja> Hence, rent for a single apartment or house is split across everyone who lives there.
22:51:20 <kc5tja> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?roommate
22:51:26 <kc5tja> It needn't be a single room.
22:53:29 <kc5tja> As far as how much I made to live on, I currently only made about $1300 or so from my various customers so far.  I need to get that figure up.
22:53:42 <kc5tja> I wish I had some money to advertise with.
22:54:02 <kc5tja> Possibly a small business loan might be in order.  I'll have to evaluate my options.
22:54:32 * Serg_Penguin avoids 'debt loop' at all costs ;))
22:54:38 <kc5tja> I'm trying.
22:54:46 <kc5tja> And it seems to be succeeding only marginally.
22:54:53 <Serg_Penguin> i have no cent of debt and i'm proud of it ;))
22:54:56 <kc5tja> But after tomorrow, I have no other customers in the queue.
22:55:04 <kc5tja> I currently share that status.
22:55:19 <kc5tja> But if I go for a loan, it'll be no more than $1500 -- something managable.
22:55:32 <kc5tja> Just to cover costs of dropping ads in newspapers and the telephone books.
22:55:55 <kc5tja> I certainly can't afford radio or TV ads -- not yet, that's for sure.  :D
22:56:08 <Serg_Penguin> heh...
22:56:25 <Serg_Penguin> then i'll rent a room or apartment,..
22:56:49 <Serg_Penguin> i'll try an option of making money from degenerate modern "art" ;))
22:56:59 <kc5tja> heh
22:57:38 <kc5tja> Personally, so as to avoid the whole debt loop thing, I'd go for the art thing FIRST, rent LATER.
22:57:57 <kc5tja> This way, if the art business doesn't pay off, you can at least just walk away from it unscathed.
22:58:11 <Serg_Penguin> no, no !
22:58:35 <Serg_Penguin> im' well employed, and my 500$/month is enough w/o any "art"
22:58:46 <kc5tja> ahh
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23:11:58 <Serg_Penguin> brb - gotta fix phone failure
23:25:31 <kc5tja> okies
23:39:09 <Serg_Penguin> fax program shows 'connected' all the time, even if modem off
23:39:45 <Serg_Penguin> i was blaming just wires at first, but it seems 2 be lotsa more brain fuckage
23:44:02 <kc5tja> hmm
23:44:04 <kc5tja> Not sure.
23:44:19 * kc5tja is subscribing to a stupid mailing list to get some tech support for one  of my customers.
23:44:31 <kc5tja> I should have done it yesterday, but I wasn't feeling up to it.
23:44:43 <kc5tja> But, the normal work-week is coming, so I figured I'd better do it.
23:46:52 <gilbertdeb> <Serg_Penguin> ... lotsa more brain fuckage
23:46:55 <gilbertdeb> that is funny!
23:50:34 <gilbertdeb> Zzzzzz
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23:59:13 <kc5tja> bedtime for me
23:59:23 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.10