00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.08
00:04:46 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth
00:05:40 * XeF4 sits at asm..
00:06:28 <Forther> thanks all, talk soon.
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00:07:28 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight")
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01:15:14 * rk is away: ZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZzZz
01:22:48 <Serg_Penguin> zzz == short cirkuit spark ? ;))
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03:25:58 <Speuler> 'morning
03:38:07 <Serg_Penguin> hi
03:38:42 <Speuler> finally got several forths on my ipaq
03:40:36 <Speuler> pfe, gforth, pforth, forth(ficl derivate), and bashforth all run 
04:27:22 <onetom> Speuler: TILE? ;)
04:27:32 <Speuler> not tried
04:28:06 <Speuler> i tend towards using a more minimal forth, and get rid of the others
04:28:31 <Speuler> of those, pforth is the smallest
04:29:09 <Speuler> don't have an arm assembler yet
04:30:22 <Speuler> but, i might as well keep them ... currently there's plenty of flash space left 
04:30:52 <Speuler> about 450 mb not used right now
04:31:40 <Speuler> unused mem is wasted mem
04:32:13 <Speuler> running a web server on it as well btw
04:32:25 <Speuler> just for the laughs
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09:54:00 <Suzanne> morning forther
10:00:47 <rk> Morning everybody
10:01:14 * Suzanne is battling with a real weird one
10:01:40 <Suzanne> : 5ths_2oct ( k v -- )                                                               
10:01:40 <Suzanne>     3 0                                                                              
10:01:40 <Suzanne>     ?DO                                                                              
10:01:40 <Suzanne>         2DUP SWAP 5 + SWAP                                                           
10:01:40 <Suzanne>     LOOP ; 
10:01:43 <Suzanne> s" 5ths_2oct" 70 65 add-arp-rule-range
10:01:53 <Suzanne> 69 79 arpeggiate  ok                                                                 
10:01:54 <Suzanne> .S <8> 69 79 74 79 79 79 84 79  ok
10:01:59 <Suzanne> now, THAT is right
10:02:37 <Suzanne> however:
10:02:38 <Suzanne> : 5ths_2oct ( k v -- )                                                               
10:02:38 <Suzanne>     3 0                                                                              
10:02:38 <Suzanne>     ?DO                                                                              
10:02:38 <Suzanne>         2DUP SWAP 5 + SWAP                                                           
10:02:38 <Suzanne>         2DUP                                                                         
10:02:40 <Suzanne>     LOOP ;     
10:02:46 <Suzanne> 69 79 arpeggiate  ok                                                                 
10:02:47 <Suzanne> .S <14> 79 79 79 79 79 84 79 84 79  ok  
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10:03:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
10:05:35 <Suzanne> anyone know why the 2nd 2DUP is messing up the stack ?
10:07:31 <Suzanne> oh, wait, its not :P
10:07:50 <Suzanne> i just noticed, .S doesn't produce ALL of the stack, just the top 8 entries :/
10:08:27 <kc5tja> Anyone know why mouse support in dosemu just utterly disappears after running GEOS under it?
10:08:56 <kc5tja> s/after/after and during/
10:09:22 <Suzanne> kc, GEOS probably does something via INT 33 that disables the mouse (probably because dosemu's mouse support isn't complete?)
10:09:41 <Suzanne> i think its INT 33, well, you know, 'the mouse INT' :)
10:09:46 <kc5tja> 33h, not 33.  :)
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10:09:52 <kc5tja> int 33 is DOS.  :D
10:10:05 <Suzanne> kc, i always think of 'INT' in hex anyway
10:10:34 <Suzanne> if i say INT 21, i mean 21h, and i think most people realise that :)
10:10:42 <kc5tja> Seriously, though, even when I load the GEOS' keyboard mouse driver (emulates a mouse with key combinations), it still breaks mouse support.
10:11:05 <Suzanne> hmm, odd, bug in GEOS ? bug in dosemu ? dunno
10:11:14 <kc5tja> As far as I can tell, anything that places the emulated VGA into graphics mode causes the mouse to disappear.
10:11:20 <kc5tja> Definitely a bug in dosemu.
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10:11:45 <Suzanne> sounds like dosemu's mouse support doesn't properly support the 'VGA' extensions to the mouse functions, then
10:12:30 <Suzanne> unless it breaks on EGA/CGA graphics stuff too...
10:12:39 <kc5tja> I don't know, I can't test that.
10:12:50 <kc5tja> But I'll hack source if I have to, because it's critical to get this stuff working.
10:13:11 <Suzanne> can't dosemu log mouse functions ?
10:13:24 <Suzanne> it can log most everything else, i would imagine it can log the mouse stuff :)
10:13:25 <kc5tja> I think it can, but I'm not sure how to do that yet.
10:13:29 <Suzanne> might give you a clue, anyway
10:13:34 <kc5tja> Well, it logs I/O port access.
10:13:39 <kc5tja> I don't know about INT calls.
10:13:42 <kc5tja> I hope it does.
10:13:54 <kc5tja> I've sent an e-mail to the maintainer; I hope I get a timely response.
10:14:28 <Suzanne> erk
10:14:36 <Suzanne> i just realised, i need to reverse the order of the stack :/
10:17:28 <Suzanne> oh my
10:17:37 <Suzanne> i just made a typo and killed gforth :P
10:17:51 <kc5tja> Yes, the unkillable Forth is actually quite easy to take out, I've found.
10:18:08 <Suzanne> i had LOCALS| d c b a|
10:18:09 <rk> anybody wanna hear a joke?
10:18:17 <Suzanne> and it got stuck in some kind of infinite never-leave mode :)
10:18:18 <kc5tja> One need only do something to disturb, in the slightest way, the dictionary structure in memory, and *BOOM!* it's as dead as a doornail.
10:18:35 <kc5tja> rk: Sure.
10:18:48 <rk> A female reporter was conducting an interview with a farmer about Mad
10:18:50 <rk> Cow Disease. "Mr. Brown, do you have any idea what might be the cause 
10:18:52 <rk> of the disease?" 
10:18:56 <rk> "Sure. Do you know the bulls only screw the cows once a year?" 
10:18:58 <rk> "Umm, sir, that is a new piece of information, but what's the
10:19:00 <rk> relationship between this and Mad Cow?" 
10:19:02 <rk> "And did you know we milk the cows twice a day?" 
10:19:04 <rk> "Mr. Brown, that's interesting, but, what's the point?" 
10:19:06 <rk> "Lady, the point is this: if I'm playing with your tits twice a day, 
10:19:08 <rk> but only screwing you once a year, wouldn't you go mad, too?"
10:19:54 * kc5tja isn't sure that was in the best of taste, considering there is a female present in the channel.  :)
10:20:20 <rk> well, i thought if my mom didnt mind, not many females would
10:20:26 <Suzanne> kc, yes, i've never heard a dirty joke before, at all, ever!
10:20:27 <kc5tja> Hehe
10:20:38 <rk> Suzanne: if i offended you in any way, i am terribly sorry.
10:21:04 <Suzanne> oh, and for those that are under-coffeed or whatever, </sarcasm> on that above line
10:21:15 <kc5tja> Suzanne: Well, it all boils down to consideration.  Whether you heard a dirty joke or not is immaterial.
10:21:47 * kc5tja has met plenty of females that heard tons of dirty jokes, but as soon as you cracked one near them, they'd get all violent.
10:23:47 <kc5tja> I think the best joke I've ever came up with was this:
10:23:59 <kc5tja> If President Reagan had his colon removed, what did he have put in its place?
10:24:03 <kc5tja> Answer:
10:24:06 <kc5tja> Semicolon.
10:24:21 <Suzanne> kc, stick to writing software for a living :P
10:24:26 <rk> ...
10:32:33 <thin> suzanne: did you get your forth problem solved?
10:32:48 <Suzanne> thin, depends on your definition of 'solved' :P
10:32:52 <thin> the one with : test create my-create allot ; ?
10:33:05 <thin> well treyb said add an immediate to the end of that line and it would work..
10:33:07 <Suzanne> oh, no, i just accepted that i had to do it differently :/
10:33:21 <thin> well adding an immediate solves the problem..
10:34:34 <thin> gonna go, laters
10:34:36 --- quit: thin ("bye")
10:45:04 <tathi> http://www.newtechusa.com/ppi/main.asp
10:45:05 <tathi> :)
10:46:28 <ian_p> lol
10:48:36 <Suzanne> yeurgh
10:48:55 <Suzanne> found the solution to my stack reversing problem, but, i'm not entirely sure how to implement it :P
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10:59:00 <kc5tja> re a7r
10:59:09 <a7r> sup kc5tja 
10:59:17 <kc5tja> Nothing much
10:59:28 <kc5tja> Waiting for some laundry to get done before running errands.
11:01:55 <a7r> werd.
11:04:36 <Suzanne> right, thats the ugliest code ever ! :P
11:04:48 <Suzanne> : FIXORDER ( count -- )                                                              
11:04:48 <Suzanne>     LOCALS| count |                                                                  
11:04:48 <Suzanne>                                                                                      
11:04:48 <Suzanne>     2 count 2 * 1 - ?DO                                                              
11:04:48 <Suzanne>         I 1 ?DO                                                                      
11:04:50 <Suzanne>             J ROLL                                                                   
11:04:52 <Suzanne>         LOOP                                                                         
11:04:54 <Suzanne>     -2 +LOOP ; 
11:05:30 <Suzanne> but it works: 1 2 3 4   2 FIXORDER .S <4> 3 4 1 2    :)
11:06:52 <kc5tja> I'm not sure why you need a local variable for that.
11:06:57 <Suzanne> kc, i don't
11:07:02 <Suzanne> i started off thinking about it one way
11:07:05 <kc5tja> Ahh
11:07:35 <Suzanne> i could just do '2 SWAP' as the first part, i agree ;)
11:08:58 <Suzanne> but i started off thinking that i'd need to use 'count' somewhere in the inner loop, i didn't
11:17:52 <Herkamire> Suzanne: I reccomend never using any of these:  ROLL PICK ROT LOCALS|
11:18:08 <Herkamire> and avoid swap as much as possible
11:18:28 <Suzanne> how would you do the above without roll ?
11:18:40 <Herkamire> I wouldn't do the above
11:18:48 <Herkamire> I never use that many stack items at once
11:19:23 <Herkamire> I occationally used to want to mess with the third down in the stack.
11:19:38 <Herkamire> I don't think I've ever found it usefull to manipulate more than the top three.
11:19:48 <Herkamire> it's been a long time since I've even wanted to play with the third
11:20:18 <Herkamire> if you find yourself using swap consider reordering your code, and/or the word you are calling
11:20:26 <kc5tja> Another thing is to push the items in the right order to begin with, but I don't know the history of your specific problem.
11:21:08 <Herkamire> exactly. the general idea is that if you have to call swap, that means you have them in the wrong order :)
11:21:37 <Herkamire> try to do everything with OVER and DUP
11:21:43 <Herkamire> it's a learning experience :)
11:21:56 * kc5tja has run into problems that cannot be solved without using SWAP.
11:21:58 <Herkamire> and you end up with very nice code.
11:22:04 <Herkamire> makes debugging miles easier too
11:22:13 <Herkamire> I use swap a little.
11:22:36 <Herkamire> I use swap to get my assembler to have stardard parameter orders.
11:22:41 <kc5tja> I use it a lot when manipulating strings, because I have <addr,count> pairs on the stack all the time.
11:23:06 <Herkamire> besides the assembler, in my 400something definitions, I use swap 8 times.
11:23:11 <kc5tja> Now see, that's one area where I don't use SWAP.  My 16-bit assembler is quite happy with Motorola-style register ordering.  :D
11:23:28 <kc5tja> I use swap a heck of a lot more than that.
11:23:53 <kc5tja> But then, I tend to do a lot of string manipulation.
11:23:54 <Herkamire> I use motorola order too. most of the swaps are in the simplified mnemonics
11:24:12 <Herkamire> I haven't tackled string manipulation yet :)
11:24:44 <Herkamire> I'm going to try keeying the string count in memory at the begining of the string
11:24:57 <kc5tja> I am thoroughly unhappy with that solution.
11:25:15 <Herkamire> I haven't tried it yet. I can see at least one drawback already
11:25:25 <kc5tja> It forbids me the ability to do in-place substring extraction.
11:26:26 <Herkamire> have you ever tried using an incrementing fetch like this:   : @+ dup 4 + swap @ ;
11:26:37 <kc5tja> No
11:26:40 <Herkamire> kc5tja: :) that's the drawback I was thinking of
11:26:53 <kc5tja> @+ == COUNT in ANSI, BTW.  :)
11:27:05 <Herkamire> ok.
11:27:19 <kc5tja> Only instead of 4 +, they use CELL+ to be more platform independent.
11:27:22 <kc5tja> But the same basic idea.
11:27:32 * kc5tja is going to have address registers, a la ColorForth and MachineForth.
11:27:47 <Herkamire> yeah. I just have one address register
11:27:50 <kc5tja> @A, @A+, !A, !A+, @B, @B+, !D, !D+
11:28:03 * kc5tja has three -- two source registers, and one destination register.
11:28:12 <kc5tja> The idea is to make bit-blitting easier.
11:28:20 <Herkamire> on ppc it's just as fast/simple to do the @+ from the stack as it is to do it from a register
11:28:40 <kc5tja> But you're polluting the stack.
11:28:53 <Herkamire> no I'm not. it's on the stack anyway
11:28:59 <kc5tja> Not if it's in a register.
11:29:14 <kc5tja> Sure, you have to load the register, but once the reg is loaded, it's off-stack.
11:29:25 <kc5tja> Leaving the data stack free for arbitrary vector operations.
11:29:26 <Herkamire> no, my TOS is a register
11:29:49 <kc5tja> It's also slower.
11:30:23 <Herkamire> no it's not. that's what I'm saying
11:30:34 <kc5tja> How do you implement @+?
11:30:36 <Herkamire> it's an add, a dup, and a fetch (one instruction each)
11:30:47 <Herkamire> : h@+s [ r-tos 2 ,r+ ,dup r-tos r-tos 0 2 - ,lhz ,;
11:30:59 <Herkamire> h for half-word (16 bits)
11:32:02 <kc5tja> versus:
11:32:34 <kc5tja> add rA,2,rA
11:32:35 <Herkamire> for the a register it would be:   : h@+ [ r-a 2 ,r+ ,dup r-tos r-a -2 ,lhz ,;
11:32:41 <kc5tja> hmm
11:33:07 <Herkamire> for pre-increment A is faster
11:33:21 <Herkamire> just dup, fetch
11:33:23 <kc5tja> Well, se la vi.
11:33:31 <kc5tja> On x86, A is faster.
11:33:51 <kc5tja> And it has the nice benefit of keeping the data stack clear of addresses.
11:34:02 <Herkamire> I like A too
11:34:05 <Herkamire> I use it mostly
11:34:24 <Herkamire> I find h@+ to be a usefull word for the sake of simplicity
11:34:31 <Herkamire> and was suprised to find that it's just as fast as A
11:34:42 <Herkamire> (faster if the address is already on the stack)
11:35:05 <kc5tja> Faster only in that you don't have to load the A register.
11:35:30 <Herkamire> yeah. three instructions. no biggie, but if you're only doing it once...
11:35:50 <Herkamire> I will add a B register if I see it as making things simpler
11:36:06 <kc5tja> My friend proposed a similar word to me, actually (same stack effects too).  I tried to do some basic string manipulation (involving two strings concurrently) and the stack just became unbearable.
11:36:27 <Herkamire> but for memory copies I'll probably write something in asm so it doesn't have to push/pop the stack all through.
11:36:34 * kc5tja nods
11:36:53 <Herkamire> ahh, again, I haven't done strings yet. I can see B being very usefull for two strings
11:37:06 <kc5tja> I think your solution works for operating on single vectors, if and only if you get rid of the fetched data somehow.  :)
11:37:30 <kc5tja> So that the TOS is the address again the next time @+ is executed.
11:37:45 * kc5tja thinks of an efficient @+ in x86 assembly:
11:38:32 <kc5tja> ;; mov eax,[esi-4] ;; lea esi,[esi-4] ;; mov eax,[eax] ;; add [esi-4],4 ;;
11:38:42 <kc5tja> That's the best I could come up with in the relatively short amount of time.
11:39:08 <kc5tja> add [esi-4],4 is a complex instruction though.  That'll stall the pipeline.
11:39:11 * kc5tja tries again.
11:40:23 <kc5tja> ;; lea ebx,[eax+4] ;; mov [esi-4],ebx ;; lea esi,[esi-4] ;; mov eax,[ebx]
11:40:42 <kc5tja> nope.  But this would work:
11:40:44 <kc5tja> ;; lea ebx,[eax+4] ;; mov [esi-4],ebx ;; lea esi,[esi-4] ;; mov eax,[eax]
11:41:40 <kc5tja> The first three instructions are equivalent to DUP 4+ SWAP
11:43:43 <kc5tja> Yeah, no matter how you look at it, A register is faster on x86.
11:43:57 <kc5tja> ( A! @A+ )
11:44:29 <kc5tja> ;; mov ebx,eax ;; mov eax,[ebx] ;; add ebx,4
11:45:42 <kc5tja> Then for normal @A+, you have to DUP:
11:45:56 <kc5tja> ;; mov [esi-4],eax ;; lea esi,[esi-4] ;; mov eax,[ebx] ;; add ebx,4
11:46:33 <kc5tja> Now, @+ is faster when caching the data stack in CPU registers.  Then @+ becomes only a few instructions:
11:46:50 <kc5tja> assuming EAX happens to the the TOS at the time, EBX, ECX, etc, we get this:
11:47:29 <kc5tja> ;; lea edi,[eax+4] ;; mov eax,[eax]
11:47:29 <kc5tja> :)
11:47:45 <kc5tja> Now the compiler knows that EDI is the 2nd top of stack (hence, it doesn't need to DUP, SWAP, or anything else)
11:48:00 <kc5tja> Register exchanges are used to recanonicalize the stack.
11:53:57 <Herkamire> sorry for the lag. my boss called me.
11:54:29 <Herkamire> I think I'll mostly use it 1 to 4 times
11:55:11 <Herkamire> if I have a pointer to 2 things:   : .. @+ . @ . ;
11:56:10 * kc5tja nods
11:56:12 <Herkamire> instead of:   : .. dup @ . 4 + @ ;     or    : .. >a a@+ . @ . ;  (this isn't much longer, but it uses A register)
11:56:50 <Herkamire> anyway, I've talked that to death
11:57:14 <kc5tja> Hey, it's your Forth.  :)
11:57:43 <kc5tja> In a real stack architecture, though, it's easier to use the A register, since it simplifies the CPU's electronics.
11:57:44 <Herkamire> I checked my code, and I only use it in a memory copy, so maybe this is one of those nice theories that is useless in the real world
11:58:05 <kc5tja> Memory copy is OK, because you're consuming the datum before the next fetch.
11:58:43 <kc5tja> in my case, I won't be doing that, especially for framebuffer access.
11:58:46 <Herkamire> I like the idea of having a B register with all the stores and an A register with mostly fetches
11:59:10 * kc5tja was thinking about that.
11:59:16 <Herkamire> I biggest hessitation of adding a B register is that I have so many different loads and stores already, and I didn't want to add another bunch unless I need them
11:59:26 <kc5tja> Currently, A is read/write, B is read-only, and D is write-only.
11:59:31 <Herkamire> A would have stores too though.
11:59:42 <Herkamire> neat
11:59:54 <kc5tja> So I can write a simple bitblit like this:
12:00:04 <Herkamire> and I could B be pre-increment and pre-decrement only 
12:00:07 <kc5tja> : and-it  A@+ B@+ AND D!+ ;
12:00:48 <Herkamire> B and D can both be the screen
12:00:54 <kc5tja> Yup.'
12:00:58 <kc5tja> That's the point.  :)
12:01:26 <kc5tja> Well, actually, the framebuffer -- it's faster to write to off-screen RAM first to draw, then just raw-copy the framebuffer to video RAM.
12:01:33 <Herkamire> when is it usefull to have the "B@+ AND" bit?
12:01:36 <kc5tja> (again, assuming x86 brain dead architecture)
12:01:49 <kc5tja> When you're masking a graphic.
12:02:02 <Herkamire> transparency! gotcha
12:02:17 * kc5tja nods
12:02:40 <Herkamire> yeah, the above would be much faster with a RAM screen buffer
12:03:15 <kc5tja> I suppose I could make a blitter compiler too, something that would dynamically generate the ideal program for a given type of blit.
12:03:27 <kc5tja> Because blits quite often require shifting/rotation as well.
12:03:41 <kc5tja> Sometimes by amounts that aren't known at edit/compile-time.
12:03:52 <Herkamire> hehe :)
12:04:12 <Herkamire> would you need that for anything besides a game?
12:04:17 <kc5tja> Especially since the first-word and last-word of each scanline must be treated specially (because of masking)
12:04:23 <kc5tja> Yes.
12:04:28 <kc5tja> GUIs rely *heavily* on blitting.
12:04:43 <kc5tja> Windowing GUIs, I should say.
12:05:09 <kc5tja> But, to a lesser extent, other kinds of GUIs do too, particularly to draw bitmap fonts, move the mouse pointer, render icons, etc.
12:05:33 <kc5tja> And scrolling.
12:05:33 <kc5tja> :)
12:05:39 <kc5tja> I forgot that -- that's critical.
12:05:42 <kc5tja> brb
12:09:41 <kc5tja> back
12:24:59 <Herkamire> I know you'll need blitters, I was just wondering if some of the optomizations you were talking about for a blitter would be overkill for the GUIs
12:29:32 <kc5tja> These optimizations have already been done.
12:30:02 <kc5tja> MacOS (pre OS X), X11, and Windows all dynamically compile code to blit optimally.
12:30:21 <kc5tja> This happened before the advent of 2D accelerators for PC video cards.
12:30:49 <kc5tja> Even after 2D accelerators came around, many times you couldn't get docs on them, so....
12:32:09 <Herkamire> I know.
12:36:37 <Herkamire> spelling help please! programming or programing?
12:36:42 <Herkamire> computer programming
12:36:51 <Herkamire> mmmmmm
12:37:15 <kc5tja> programming.
12:40:05 <Herkamire> thanks.
12:40:16 <Herkamire> must be extra sure before I print it on my business card
12:40:22 <kc5tja> :)
12:41:20 <Herkamire> hmmm "custom programming" seems a bit redundant
12:41:49 <kc5tja> Yeah
12:42:13 <kc5tja> Maybe "computer programming" instead?
12:44:36 <Herkamire> "Web Hosting · Programming"  is what I have now
12:48:46 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba42a2.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
12:54:06 <ian_p> how about 'web hosting/software development'?
12:54:49 --- join: jamc (~user@as3-6-8.asp.s.bonet.se) joined #forth
13:01:04 <Speuler> someone with nick Forther been around tonight, about 2 hours ago ?
13:07:50 <Herkamire> Speuler: he left 3 hours ago
13:08:24 <Speuler> oh
13:08:37 <Speuler> bad timing
13:23:53 <ian_p> yeah he was lookin for ya
13:28:51 --- join: semtex (~semtex@mnch-d9ba42a2.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
13:29:18 <semtex> /me alias Speuler
13:29:45 <semtex> irc client on ipaq :)
13:30:07 <a7r> running which OS?
13:30:13 <semtex> linux
13:30:23 <a7r> familiar?
13:30:34 <Speuler> familiar for 3900
13:30:52 <a7r> werd.. I started that project.
13:30:58 <Speuler> linux on ipaq rox :)
13:31:14 <Speuler> good initiative.
13:31:49 <Speuler> version 0.7 it is
13:32:04 <Speuler> gpe
13:32:15 <Speuler> dropped opie again
13:32:32 <a7r> cool.
13:32:33 <Speuler> better looks, less functionality
13:33:19 <Speuler> couldn't get mozilla to run yet
13:33:26 <Speuler> using dillo instead
13:33:49 <Speuler> might try embedded konqueror
13:34:45 <Speuler> took me a while to take the step to install linux
13:35:13 <Speuler> 39xx / pxa support was poor until recently
13:36:01 <Speuler> but running wince for while puts me into a position to compare both os
13:36:48 <Speuler> wouldn't have know otherwise what a toy wince is compared to linux :)
13:37:43 <Speuler> now ipaq has decent network functionality
13:38:08 <Speuler> like nfs server, sshd, web server and the like
13:39:33 <Speuler> being able to save contents of the internal flash across nfs with dd if=/dev/root of=file_on_nfs_share is great too
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13:41:48 <gilbertdeb> hi Speuler!
13:42:01 <Speuler> hi gilbertdeb !
13:42:16 <gilbertdeb> whats new?
13:42:17 <semtex> hi gilbertdeb
13:42:22 <gilbertdeb> hi semtex
13:42:25 <Speuler> :)
13:42:29 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
13:42:35 <gilbertdeb> I just got a copy of reaper man.
13:42:44 <Speuler> 'm not a split personality
13:42:50 <gilbertdeb> I'm sure you're not.
13:42:53 <Speuler> all right ... 
13:42:59 <Speuler> started reading it ?
13:43:04 <gilbertdeb> No not yet.
13:43:08 <gilbertdeb> interesting things came up :D
13:43:11 <Speuler> the morris dance ...
13:43:19 <gilbertdeb> I've not read that.
13:43:27 <Speuler> right at the beginning 
13:43:56 <Speuler> first of that series ?
13:44:14 <Speuler> i mean, first one of that series you're reading ?
13:44:14 <gilbertdeb> Mmm. not sure.
13:44:24 <gilbertdeb> I read hogfather too.
13:44:25 <Speuler> it is book 9 or 10
13:44:32 <gilbertdeb> lemme see.
13:44:40 <Speuler> i'm just reading small gods
13:44:43 <Speuler> book #11
13:45:47 <gilbertdeb> nah it does not say.
13:46:46 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: have you played with plan9 yet?
13:46:54 <Speuler> hogfather is book 20
13:47:06 <Speuler> hardly
13:47:18 <gilbertdeb> I liked that one.
13:47:30 <gilbertdeb> the bookstore gets them in randomly so I'm not reading them in any order.
13:48:03 <Speuler> same as me before i got them all. now i'm reading them in sequence, skipping the ones i know already
13:49:07 <gilbertdeb> so have you been working on any forths lately?
13:49:18 <Speuler> correction
13:49:25 <Speuler> reaper man is 11
13:49:31 <Speuler> i'm with 13 now, small gods
13:49:55 <Speuler> other than getting forth onthe ipaq, no
13:50:09 <gilbertdeb> what is that forth written in?
13:50:46 <Speuler> those ones are gforth, pfe, pforth, and a ficl derivate
13:51:39 <Speuler> i skipped yforth
13:52:09 <gilbertdeb> yforth?
13:52:13 <Speuler> oh, bashforth runs on ipaq as well :)
13:52:18 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
13:52:22 <gilbertdeb> is your ipaq running linux?
13:52:26 <Speuler> yes
13:53:20 <semtex> and an irc client too
13:53:47 <gilbertdeb> what kind of NIC does it have in it?
13:53:52 <Speuler> semtex has looged in with the ipaq irc client
13:53:57 <Speuler> using usbnet
13:54:02 <gilbertdeb> oh okay.
13:54:12 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
13:54:29 <Speuler> couldn't get the bluetooth dongle working on the desktop yet
13:57:43 <Speuler> the 3970 has internal bluetooth
13:57:48 <Speuler> but no wlan
13:58:07 <Speuler> would need a pcmcia sleeve for wlan
13:58:25 <gilbertdeb> I don't have any new hardware...
13:58:43 <gilbertdeb> my next acquisition might be a sparc box or a mac or if I can find one, a VMS box.
13:59:22 <Speuler> what's your sgi box doing ?
13:59:38 <gilbertdeb> it is sitting here :|
13:59:42 <gilbertdeb> I need a monitor for it.
13:59:51 <gilbertdeb> and I'd really like to put linux or netbsd on there.
13:59:53 <Speuler> i've purchased a few HP x-terminals
14:00:06 <gilbertdeb> really? what server do they run off of?
14:00:13 <gilbertdeb> oh so f ar I _hate_ irix.
14:00:45 <Speuler> the xserver comes with them. need to put it on a tftp server in the net
14:01:16 <gilbertdeb> the problem seems to be that for the r10k IP28, there exists absolutley no plan9, linux, or *bsd port :(
14:01:31 <gilbertdeb> the xserver is an hp-ux thing?
14:01:59 <Speuler> don't think so. t'is terminals, no need for them to run unix
14:02:11 <Speuler> as long as the x server can load and run
14:02:29 <Speuler> i still have to pick them up
14:03:04 <Speuler> thought that might be a cheap way to create new workplaces in the office
14:04:01 <Speuler> the x clients (user apps) sit and run on another machine
14:04:18 <Speuler> task of the xserver is just to visualize their output
14:05:15 <Speuler> and of course, register mouse/keyboard input and send it to the x client
14:05:19 <gilbertdeb> are the displays decent?
14:05:34 <Speuler> they look all right. 19" screens
14:05:57 <gilbertdeb> cool!
14:06:20 <Speuler> about 25 $ each (monitor+xterminal)
14:06:37 <gilbertdeb> wow!
14:07:22 <Speuler> what's saved there can be spent at more ram/quicker disks for the server
14:07:57 <gilbertdeb> what sort of server do you think you'll have?
14:08:36 <Speuler> right now it is a single-cpu pentium, about 2 ghz, 300 gb disks, 512 mb ram. 
14:08:48 <Speuler> i'm thinking about an opteron-based system
14:08:53 <gilbertdeb> opteron?
14:08:59 <Speuler> 2 gb ram should do
14:09:05 <Speuler> :)
14:09:16 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
14:09:19 <Speuler> amd's latest
14:09:21 <gilbertdeb> but what about the OS?
14:09:24 <Speuler> linux
14:09:38 <gilbertdeb> cool.
14:10:06 <Speuler> we're down from 11 computers to 5 now
14:10:34 <Speuler> obsolete stuff thrown out, funtionally merged some machines
14:10:54 <Speuler> no, 6
14:11:15 <Speuler> forgot the firewall/gateway
14:11:17 <gilbertdeb> obsolete? what was obsolete?
14:11:30 <Speuler> 200 mhz pentiums
14:11:59 <gilbertdeb> you call that obsolete?
14:12:10 <gilbertdeb> anything less than 1 hz might be obsolete.
14:12:13 <gilbertdeb> but you never know.
14:12:20 <Speuler> well, you still can use that stuff
14:12:24 <gilbertdeb> why not?
14:12:36 <Speuler> but, where it can be used, machines are already doing their job
14:12:47 <gilbertdeb> cluster.
14:12:52 <Speuler> would make a good printer server
14:13:06 <Speuler> but, there's a machines which acts as printer server as well
14:13:25 <gilbertdeb> or a nice gift with linux installed to some windows diehards :)
14:13:26 <Speuler> besides 2nd dns, nfs storage, ntp and the like
14:14:21 <Speuler> a full-blown window-manager will be sluggish on a 200 mhz machine, even under linux
14:14:33 <Speuler> say, gnome or kde.
14:14:44 <Speuler> with others you can't tease windows users
14:15:14 <gilbertdeb> I know what you could put on there, since it isn't going to run anything else:
14:15:17 <gilbertdeb> plan9!
14:16:19 <Speuler> the window user you got in mind will be much enthused
14:16:56 <gilbertdeb> well, so far I like the whole plan9 idea.
14:17:04 <gilbertdeb> if i could only get it to install properly to my harddisk.
14:17:11 <gilbertdeb> also, beos can run on there!
14:18:01 <Speuler> some video hardware, along with the monitors, wasn't exactly state-of-the-art anymore
14:18:13 <Speuler> hurt your eyes by just looking at
14:19:14 <Speuler> btw, there's no windows no more in the office
14:19:30 <Speuler> last one was my ipaq, running ce ...
14:19:35 <Speuler> not anymore
14:19:38 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
14:19:46 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: oracle is doing the same thing :)
14:20:05 <gilbertdeb> I read somewhere on some website...
14:20:35 <Speuler> i wished ibm would start to ban windows from their systems
14:21:03 <ian_p> s/ibm/everyone
14:21:19 <Speuler> let microsoft run windows
14:21:28 <gilbertdeb> let freebsd reign!
14:21:34 <gilbertdeb> I don't like what sco is doing.
14:21:47 <Speuler> nobody really does
14:21:54 <Speuler> safe bill gates
14:22:23 <Speuler> where's ray noorda nowadays ?
14:22:51 <gilbertdeb> hiding on a ranch sipping hot cocoa?
14:22:58 <gilbertdeb> :)
14:23:08 <gilbertdeb> he's had some interesting businesses.
14:23:23 <gilbertdeb> word perfect and Unix.
14:23:30 <gilbertdeb> I wonder why he never put the two together.
14:23:34 <Speuler> i assume he's out of caldera/sco now ?
14:23:50 <gilbertdeb> I think caldera n'est pas la.
14:24:02 <Speuler> he founded caldera when he left novell
14:24:17 <Speuler> later caldera bought sco
14:24:23 <gilbertdeb> did He? I did'nt know he did.
14:24:25 <Speuler> and renamed itself
14:24:51 <Speuler> and now novell goes all linux ...
14:25:03 <gilbertdeb> and sco wants ALL linux.
14:25:58 <Speuler> looks like we're getting closer to the showdown
14:26:15 <Speuler> i think sco is fishfood
14:26:43 <Speuler> they had it
14:28:25 <Speuler> ibm has sued them
14:28:40 <Speuler> they're not going to be able to pay
14:28:46 <Speuler> (sco)
14:29:15 <Speuler> so they got to pay with intellectual property
14:29:34 <gilbertdeb> redhat sued them too.
14:29:39 <Speuler> right
14:30:09 <gilbertdeb> I'm quite happy the bsds remain unscathed.
14:32:34 <Speuler> true. still offers an escape pathway if things should get worse
14:38:26 <gilbertdeb> aha!
14:38:33 <gilbertdeb> I have plan9 on my laptop at last!!!
14:40:32 <Herkamire> what did they sue sco for?
14:42:25 <kc5tja> Probably for malfeasance -- Novell insists that SCO never had the technology rights that SCO is suing others for.
14:42:41 <kc5tja> Then there's a possible suit against them for violation of Linus Torvald's trademark on Linux.
14:42:48 <kc5tja> (and other intellectual property)
14:43:08 <Speuler> sco has violated the gpl, says ibm
14:43:13 <kc5tja> And, I'm sure that IBM has probably found that SCO is using technology that is licensed only for AIX users.  :D
14:43:38 <kc5tja> Wow.  This is GPL's first court trial.
14:43:51 <kc5tja> This will be a land-mark case.
14:45:23 <Speuler> btw, sgi goes linux too
14:45:54 <Speuler> supercomputers
14:45:56 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: yeah, but only on their x86 offerings.
14:46:14 <Speuler> up to 2048 cpus, 16 terabyte ram
14:46:16 <gilbertdeb> they're being VERY quiet about getting it onto the MIPS.
14:46:41 <Speuler> itanium-based
14:46:42 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Not too quiet.  I know a fellow who hacks on the MIPS kernels for SGI.
14:47:10 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: really? for the r10k IP28?
14:47:15 <gilbertdeb> that would be awesome!
14:47:20 <kc5tja> IP28?
14:47:24 <gilbertdeb> I _hate_ irix. I now understand why GNU exists at all.
14:47:40 <gilbertdeb> yeah, for the i2.
14:47:56 <kc5tja> All I know is that it supports SMP to a large number of processors.
14:48:02 <kc5tja> Something like 64 or 128 CPUs.
14:48:57 <kc5tja> You know, I really wish the author of dosemu would get back to me.  :/
14:49:09 <kc5tja> I do kind of need to make a delivery to my client soon.
14:49:24 <Speuler> and, lockheed martin puts yellow dog linux on us submarines
14:50:02 <Speuler> for real-time image processing
14:50:25 <Speuler> there's a number of 260 mentioned
14:51:25 <gilbertdeb> lockheed martin used to own my i2.
14:52:18 <ian_p> on xerves no less
14:52:20 <ian_p> xserves
14:53:39 <Speuler> 2.6.0-test2 kernel is supposed to run out-of-the-box on itanium
14:54:03 <Speuler> no patching of sources required
14:58:51 <kc5tja> Going to run some errands.
14:58:57 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-afk
15:40:15 --- join: DarkTriforce (DarkMan@209.12.76.226) joined #forth
15:40:23 <DarkTriforce> hi
15:40:40 <DarkTriforce> how do u create channels ? Im new to this
15:41:14 <Herkamire> DarkTriforce: just /join #...
15:41:27 <Herkamire> if the channel doesn't exist it will be created, and you will have operator status
15:42:19 --- quit: DarkTriforce (Client Quit)
15:43:56 --- join: DarkTriforce (DarkMan@209.12.76.226) joined #forth
15:44:02 <DarkTriforce> hum
15:44:08 <DarkTriforce> doesnt seem to work
15:44:24 <DarkTriforce> lets see
15:44:46 <Herkamire> what channel?
15:44:58 <DarkTriforce> Im trying to create one
15:45:17 <DarkTriforce> corresponding qith my site
15:45:20 <DarkTriforce> w*
15:45:32 <Herkamire>  /join #darktri
15:45:45 --- quit: DarkTriforce (Client Quit)
15:54:13 <ian_p> heh
16:08:08 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Client Exiting")
16:08:31 --- join: gilbertdeb (gilbert@fl-nken-u2-c3b-118.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth
16:31:58 <Suzanne> Speuler: its not JUST yellow-dog, its BlackLab
16:32:12 <Suzanne> granted, BlackLab is a superset of YDL...
16:33:15 <gilbertdeb> hi Suzanne.
16:34:51 <Suzanne> my guess would be that they're using 4 per ship
16:34:57 <Suzanne> but that leaves a big question :)
16:35:16 <gilbertdeb> what big question?
16:35:18 <Suzanne> there are only ~55 LA classes out there...
16:35:39 <Suzanne> so that leaves 10 installs left over
16:36:06 <gilbertdeb> hmm?
16:36:24 <Suzanne> gilbert, the Speuler commented on the US Navy buying Xserves
16:36:39 <gilbertdeb> yeah, but how are 10 left over?
16:36:48 <Suzanne> gilbert, they're saying 260 xserves
16:36:52 <Suzanne> there are 55 LA class subs
16:36:55 <gilbertdeb> oh okay.
16:37:13 <Speuler> 260 4 / 55 - .
16:37:26 <Suzanne> should give you 10 :)
16:37:36 <Suzanne> actually, there are only 49 LA class
16:37:37 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: have I already asked if you've used plan already?
16:37:46 <gilbertdeb> remove one already *
16:37:52 <Suzanne> the other '6' are on the design books
16:38:18 <Suzanne> gilbert, plan ?
16:38:27 <gilbertdeb> plan9
16:38:30 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
16:38:33 <Suzanne> oh
16:38:39 <Suzanne> not directly, no
16:38:51 <gilbertdeb> I'm at the final stages of installation.
16:39:04 <gilbertdeb> I can't for the life of me find the init files.
16:39:14 <Suzanne> Speuler: btw, any idea how BlackLab is ?
16:39:15 <gilbertdeb> there is no /etc on plan9 :(
16:40:30 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:44:20 --- nick: kc-afk -> kc5tja
16:44:30 <kc5tja> Back
16:44:46 <Speuler> no, never tried taht one. didn't even know it existed
16:45:47 <Speuler> why should image processing gear only make sense on L.A.-class submarines ?
16:45:48 <Suzanne> speuler, its what the navy wanted
16:46:02 <Suzanne> speuler, because the imaging they're doing is sonar imaging :)
16:46:19 <Suzanne> and besides, the LA Class sonar upgrade was scheduled for 2003-2004 :)
16:46:48 <Speuler> maybe they need some lab reference installations as well
16:46:54 <Suzanne> probably
16:47:02 <Suzanne> there are a couple of mock-up LA class trainers too
16:47:07 <Suzanne> so they'd need the same gear
16:47:11 * rk is back (gone 15:31:51)
16:49:20 <Suzanne> its a good job they bought Xserves tho, can just see 'see son, our motto is run silen... <WHIRRRRRRRRRR> ok, which idiot powered the wind-tunnels up ?'
16:49:42 <gilbertdeb> heheh
16:50:09 <Suzanne> (actually, my MDD is almost utterly silent, for what it is worth :)
16:51:31 * Herkamire 's brain finally kicks in... Xserve, as in Apple's new rackmount server
16:51:51 <Suzanne> Herkamire: not THAT new, but yes
16:51:53 <kc5tja> :)
16:52:29 <kc5tja> Yeah, I had to do a google search for that too.  I was thinking multiple X-server, to combat the multi-fan PCs.
16:52:37 <Suzanne> i'm a bit questionable about the 260 boxes tho
16:52:55 <Suzanne> 260 of the high-end Xserves would be $988,000 still short of the $1.3M
16:53:02 <Herkamire> aren't the Xservers really expensive?
16:53:29 <Suzanne> herk, compared to budget rack PCs, yes
16:53:34 <Suzanne> compared to quality rack PCs, no
16:53:58 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: but the navy has $$$
16:54:02 <Suzanne> the USN's timing is a bit lousy too, all signs point to a G5 Xserve announced late this month :)
16:54:11 <gilbertdeb> who else could have paid for the development of COBOL? ;)
16:54:46 <Herkamire> true.
16:54:53 <Suzanne> gilbert, well, really, when you look at it, you have a $50M or so submarine, a $12k's of computers for it isn't THAT extravagant :P
16:55:03 <Herkamire> apples prices are usually ok to good compaired to other high end stuff
16:55:26 <Suzanne> herk, indeed, everyone just compares them to Dell's bottom end, with all the rebates applied (i hate rebates!)
16:55:47 <Herkamire> I just didnt' buy it because I don't need anything fast.
16:55:49 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: whazammata, can't make it to the post office? :)
16:55:57 <Herkamire> I just bought a server for about $500
16:55:57 <Suzanne> ie, $399 * after rebate   (<font size=-20> * price before rebate $1300 </font>) :)
16:56:48 <Herkamire> I don't like loaning those corperationgs $300 for 3-4 months either
16:57:19 <Suzanne> herk, *nod* and they can deny your claim on the tiniest whim
16:57:29 <Suzanne> 'oh, i'm sorry, you bought that after 9pm, claim rejected'
16:57:39 <kc5tja> clear
16:57:41 <kc5tja> err
16:57:43 <Herkamire> true :) there is the whole _trust_ thing
16:58:16 * Herkamire wonders if he should start backing.
16:58:32 <Herkamire> I should probably put it off to the last two hours before I go to bed like usual ;)
16:59:50 <kc5tja> Backing?
16:59:58 <Suzanne> kc, backing up, i think he meant
17:00:05 <kc5tja> Ahh
17:00:28 <Herkamire> lol
17:00:36 <Herkamire> I meant packing. for my trip
17:00:41 <Suzanne> oh
17:00:56 <Herkamire> I'm going on vacation next week. leaving early in the morning.
17:01:02 <Herkamire> I can't back in the am.
17:01:09 <gilbertdeb> back up?
17:01:17 <gilbertdeb> this is a computer Oriented channel.
17:01:44 <Speuler> navy can be glad they don't need radiation-hardened space technology for this app
17:01:45 <Herkamire> I don't do too well remembering to bing stuff for work.
17:01:54 <Herkamire> last time I forgot my work keys, my wallet and my cellphone.
17:02:07 <gilbertdeb> :O
17:02:19 <Herkamire> first time I forgot all three
17:02:26 <Herkamire> suprising I actually had the car keys ;)
17:03:17 <Herkamire> Speuler: and that they don't have to have everything weigh 3 ounces or less
17:03:51 <Speuler> reduction of required space was mentioned as a pro
17:04:07 <Speuler> and in general, smaller = lighter
17:05:53 <Speuler> wasn't the navy charmed by ms products a while ago ?
17:06:13 <kc5tja> Yup
17:06:38 <Suzanne> speuler, only til the incident where the SQL Server controlling a ship crashed and left the ship 'dead in the water'
17:06:46 <Suzanne> then their love of MS kind of faded
17:07:23 <Herkamire> nice :)
17:07:30 <Speuler> so much for user friendliness
17:07:54 <Herkamire> expensive and unreliable, vs free and reliable   hmmmmm
17:08:05 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: are you serious?
17:08:27 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Where were you when the two destroyers made headline news?
17:08:34 <Suzanne> gilbert, yes, it was very well publicized back in 2000 or so when it happened
17:08:38 <kc5tja> Well, one destroyer and one battleship.
17:11:47 <Speuler> luckily that were ships
17:12:00 <Speuler> ships tend to stay on the water all by themselves
17:12:13 <kc5tja> Lucky that they were both very close to dry-dock.
17:12:19 <Speuler> airplanes tend to crash
17:12:22 <Suzanne> Speuler: indeed
17:12:22 <kc5tja> Both crashed shortly after leaving dry-dock.  :/
17:12:35 <Suzanne> Speuler: it might have been more risky if it had been a NGHC test ;)
17:13:04 <Speuler> what's that ?
17:13:12 <Suzanne> but i haven't heard diddly about NGHC in about 6 years now
17:13:19 <Suzanne> Next Generation HoverCraft
17:13:26 <Suzanne> basically, a big hovercraft, with stealth technology
17:13:37 <kc5tja> Stealth only to radar.  :
17:13:38 <kc5tja> :D
17:13:45 <Suzanne> imagine a 'ship' that looks like the F117
17:13:54 <Suzanne> kc, hovercrafts tend to be stealthy to sonar anyway
17:13:55 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: only in Xmen!
17:14:10 <Speuler> thought the swedish operate such stealth boats already
17:14:22 <kc5tja> Suzanne: Sonar?  Maybe because it's jamming the waterways with all the whitenoise from the fans.  :D
17:14:24 <Suzanne> speuler, they do, but the US NGHC was supposed to be based around Aegis tech
17:14:34 <Speuler> not sure about those being hovercrafts though
17:14:36 <kc5tja> But radar?  I'm not sure.  I wouldn't have experience with that.
17:15:44 <Suzanne> speuler, the NGHC was supposed to replace the junk they use 'now' (they haven't used them in ages) for assault landings
17:15:55 <Speuler> Suzanne: you seem to have above-average knowledge of army system
17:16:07 <Speuler> does that come by accident ?
17:16:11 <Suzanne> mostly, yes
17:16:40 <Speuler> "know your enemy" ?
17:16:56 <kc5tja> Speuler: The Army declassifies this stuff deliberately.
17:17:07 <kc5tja> Imagine what they have in store that ISN'T published.
17:17:09 <Suzanne> erm, enemy? i'm not an enemy of any part of the US!!
17:17:31 <Speuler> depends on who controls the army
17:17:50 <kc5tja> For example, I know that the Swedes have at least two classes of submarines with Stirling-cycle engines in them, permitting them extended (AND SILENT!) operation underwater without obtuse stealth technologies.
17:18:45 <Speuler> the swedish boats i was referring to were not submarines
17:18:55 <kc5tja> I don't care what YOU were referring to.
17:19:02 <kc5tja> I'm talking about what I'M referring to.
17:19:12 <kc5tja> :)
17:19:39 <kc5tja> phone brb
17:19:47 <gilbertdeb> Speuler: we found out that Suzanne has above average knowledge of *
17:20:06 <Speuler> as in "wildcard" ?
17:20:13 <Speuler> or as in "censored" ?
17:20:13 <gilbertdeb> yep.
17:20:18 <gilbertdeb> no.
17:20:47 <Speuler> that's good
17:21:01 <Speuler> very practical to have around 
17:21:13 <kc5tja> back
17:21:21 <gilbertdeb> we're trying to encourage her to stay or at least visit very often :)
17:21:53 <kc5tja> Now if only we can get Chuck Moore to visit more than once a decade, I'd be happy.
17:22:03 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
17:22:31 <Speuler> yes. once every three years would do
17:22:39 <Suzanne> do any of the UK 'big names in forth' ever visit ?
17:22:59 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: like who?
17:23:00 <kc5tja> I'm not aware of any, personally.
17:23:11 <Speuler> there's a monthly meeting on ircnet
17:23:22 <Speuler> by the figuk
17:23:30 <gilbertdeb> why don't we invite them here?
17:23:38 <Suzanne> kc, thats ok then :)
17:23:42 <Speuler> but haven't seen them often here
17:23:52 <Suzanne> i don't want to run into my old colleagues around here :)
17:24:00 <kc5tja> I think we did once, didn't we?  Maybe only two ever showed up, said, "This place is for losers," and disappeared.
17:24:05 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: you used to work with figuk?
17:24:10 <Suzanne> no, not figuk
17:24:20 <gilbertdeb> m5 ? ;)
17:24:26 <Suzanne> but people that are prominent UK forth people :)
17:24:27 <gilbertdeb> or is it mi5?
17:24:31 <Suzanne> mi5
17:24:40 <Suzanne> and no, i didn't :)
17:24:45 <Suzanne> nor mi6, before you ask :P
17:24:56 <kc5tja> What is mi5/6?
17:25:27 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: their fbi/cia/ etc.
17:25:27 <Suzanne> kc, british ministry of information
17:25:33 <kc5tja> Ahh
17:25:40 <Suzanne> mi5 = spying national, mi6 = spying international, iirc
17:25:43 <gilbertdeb> 'ministry of information'. how mild.
17:25:58 <kc5tja> Better name than Ministry of Intelligence.  :D
17:26:02 <Suzanne> i NEARLY worked for a MoD contractor :)
17:26:28 <Suzanne> was offered a job programming another obscure language :)
17:26:52 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: what's mild.
17:26:54 <gilbertdeb> which one??
17:27:00 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: Mi5.
17:27:08 <gilbertdeb> ministry of information.
17:27:18 <Herkamire> as aposed to central intelligence agency
17:27:21 <Suzanne> gilbert, the language? think for a second: an obscure programming language, used by a defense industry contractor, there aren't many choices :)
17:27:23 <gilbertdeb> yeah!
17:27:25 <Herkamire> sounds like the same sort of thing
17:27:29 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: ada?
17:27:35 <Suzanne> gilbert, indeed
17:27:43 <Suzanne> gilbert, was to be programming guidance systems for torpedos
17:27:55 <Suzanne> i turned the offer down tho
17:28:01 * kc5tja heard really good things about Ada and its compilers.  Too bad the language is Modula-2 on steroids instead of more like Oberon.
17:28:25 <Suzanne> kc, i think the biggest advantage Ada has, is that the standard is EVERYTHING
17:28:46 <kc5tja> Yeah, I was going to say that while Oberon requires only a garbage collector in its runtime, Ada requires a whole POSIX-compliant OS.  :D
17:35:37 <gilbertdeb> who else uses Ada?
17:37:23 <kc5tja> Note to those who have kids:
17:37:38 <kc5tja> A great way to keep them entertained involves only a straw, a 9" balloon, and a rubber band.
17:38:06 <kc5tja> The basic premise is to fill the balloon, and just let it go -- the air escaping the balloon will act like a rocket, propelling the balloon forward at random directions.
17:38:15 <kc5tja> However, it exhausts too fast.
17:38:32 <kc5tja> Hence the straw: the straw acts to control the flow of exhaust, while still keeping the balloon air-borne.
17:39:04 <gilbertdeb> and the rubber band keeps it attached :)
17:39:10 <kc5tja> Yes, and maintains a good seal.
17:39:12 <Suzanne> kc, i used to do that, when i was like 8 or so, it is indeed fun
17:39:24 <Suzanne> i built a helicopter out of lego once, too
17:39:31 <gilbertdeb> did it fly?
17:39:35 <Suzanne> tethered on an arm, but it still lifted itself
17:40:15 <Suzanne> gilbert, with a bit (not a massive amount tho) of counterweight on the other end of the arm, yes
17:40:38 <Suzanne> was using a 9000rpm motor superglued into a set of lego bricks, and a RC plane prop  :)
17:41:43 <Suzanne> 900rpm, even
17:43:59 <kc5tja> Anyway, the whole point of that little exercise was to test the ability of rubber bands to hold a good seal.
17:44:04 <kc5tja> Apparently, they're quite good.
17:44:15 <Suzanne> kc, using the thin bands ?
17:44:23 <gilbertdeb> broadband!
17:44:24 <kc5tja> Not too thin, but they're not BIG either.
17:44:30 * Suzanne nods
17:44:32 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth
17:44:35 <kc5tja> But I wrap them around the straw a good number of times.
17:44:42 <a7r> re..
17:44:42 <Suzanne> kc, i used to have great fun after christmas with balloons :P
17:44:47 * kc5tja is trying to build a home-made Stirling engine for fun.
17:45:03 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: *after*?
17:45:06 <gilbertdeb> not ON?
17:45:14 <Suzanne> kc, my parents always bought a specific brand of balloon, that was thick skinned, and you could push a knitting needle thru them without them popping, it was always fun to watch people expect it to go pop :P
17:45:26 <kc5tja> Heheh
17:45:32 <kc5tja> These come pre-made to pop, it seems.
17:46:02 <kc5tja> I've already ripped a few just putting the balloon over the power cylinder.
17:46:18 <Suzanne> erk, el-cheapo 'bottom of the tub latex' brand :)
17:46:24 <kc5tja> Pretty much.
17:46:27 <kc5tja> Didn't cost much though.
17:46:42 <kc5tja> I don't have insane amounts of cash to spend on this stuff.
17:46:54 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: were these thick balloons also called inner tubes?
17:46:59 <Suzanne> don't try this, but you can have GREAT fun if you fill them with something flammable and then do the straw trick, igniting the exhaust :)
17:47:08 <gilbertdeb> ah yes!
17:47:11 --- quit: Herkamire ("exiting to real world. time to get ready for vacation")
17:47:14 <gilbertdeb> I've done it with empty gas bottles!
17:47:18 <kc5tja> My parents never let me do anything so fun.  :/
17:47:19 <Suzanne> gilbert, no, they were regular 'party' balloons, but they were designed to be more opaque looking than most
17:47:30 <Suzanne> kc, my parents never knew :P
17:47:34 <kc5tja> But I did do the same kind of thing with a bottle of rubbing alcohol.  :D
17:47:35 <gilbertdeb> you fill the bottle with air, turn it on and light it :)
17:47:44 <kc5tja> Suzanne: I've always been a wuss when I was a kid.
17:47:57 <Suzanne> kc, another nice 'explosive' trick i did, was filling empty coke cans with flammable gas, then igniting them in a 'pvc drainpipe' launcher :)
17:48:15 * kc5tja nods
17:48:31 <Suzanne> water rockets were always my main passion with the pvc tube launcher tho
17:48:37 <Suzanne> once got one to go around 120' up
17:48:43 * kc5tja did get to help make a high muzzle velocity, rifled, spud-gun once though.
17:48:56 <Suzanne> and demolished a wall with one once :)
17:48:57 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: lets see, that + what you know about WMD and almost working for mi* ...
17:49:00 <gilbertdeb> makes me wonder.
17:49:05 <Suzanne> (using the launcher as a bazooka :)
17:49:19 <kc5tja> Yes, this had a shoulder rest.
17:49:19 <kc5tja> :)
17:49:29 <kc5tja> Piezo-electric barbeque igniter too.
17:49:32 <Suzanne> heh
17:49:34 <kc5tja> It was quite nice.
17:50:02 <kc5tja> We fire it out in the desert now and again.
17:50:12 <Suzanne> gilbert, i'd better not point out that i'm not a bad shot with a rifle, then :P
17:50:38 <kc5tja> I suck with a hand-gun, but I'm not that bad with a rifle as long as I have time to aim properly.
17:51:37 <gilbertdeb> hrmm Suzanne.
17:51:38 * kc5tja has had a relatively deprived childhood.
17:51:47 <gilbertdeb> me too kc5tja.
17:52:08 <kc5tja> That's why I want to build my own gokart, with a homebrew engine of some kind.  To make up for lost years.
17:52:15 <gilbertdeb> the most I got to do was dismantle a perfectly working brand new rifle and re-assemble it without anyone ever finding out.
17:52:33 <kc5tja> The only rifle I dismantled was an M-16.
17:52:42 <kc5tja> And I couldn't do it again without some kind of aide.
17:53:32 <Suzanne> kc, some of the more bizarre parts of my childhood, stem from 'being in the wrong place at the right time' :)
17:53:45 <kc5tja> I never went anywhere.
17:53:50 <Suzanne> like, the time, i witnessed a shootout with a serial-killer that was on the run, at school
17:53:51 <kc5tja> I was always the local, friendly punching bag.
17:54:05 <gilbertdeb> :O
17:55:08 <Suzanne> SO19 at one end of the street with L1A1s, serial-killer at the other end with an AK...
17:55:29 <gilbertdeb> I'm rooting for the guys with the AK.
17:55:32 --- join: jma (jma@68.26.64.140) joined #forth
17:55:41 <gilbertdeb> I'd cower if I were the guys with the OTHER rifle.
17:55:52 <Suzanne> gilbert, otoh, they had body armor :P
17:55:59 <gilbertdeb> they needed it!
17:56:01 <kc5tja> Hmm...  AK-47 versus 30-30 . . .
17:56:08 <kc5tja> ;D
17:56:11 <gilbertdeb> ak's penetrate some body armor.
17:56:16 <Suzanne> anyway, shots were fired, but noone was hit
17:56:29 <Suzanne> he escaped that day, only to shoot himself in a parking structure a week later
17:58:00 --- quit: jamc ("I have many CHARTS and DIAGRAMS..")
17:58:15 <Suzanne> kc, i dunno, the FAL is still a favored rifle with some european militaries, so it can't be all bad
17:58:15 <gilbertdeb> Suzanne: he could have gotten away with it!
17:58:26 <gilbertdeb> but thats a rather LARGE gun for a serial killer!
17:58:46 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Precisely why gun-control laws are utterly, 100% useless.
17:58:52 <kc5tja> And, in fact, patently dangerous.
17:58:54 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
17:59:27 <Suzanne> this was before the UK's ban on guns, mind you
17:59:36 <kc5tja> Doesn't matter.
17:59:37 <Suzanne> (not that its a very effective ban)
17:59:44 <kc5tja> They'll find ways to get them anyway.
17:59:51 <Suzanne> i knew people at uni that carried Barettas with them at all times
18:00:00 <kc5tja> What I love is, in California, a staff is against the law.
18:00:13 <kc5tja> Yet, you can go to the local hardware store and pick up a push-broom with removable handle, no problem.
18:00:24 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
18:00:25 <Suzanne> well, california is weird :P
18:00:31 <kc5tja> Such handles are nearly ideal in length for use as a staff, and about as hard too.
18:00:40 <kc5tja> Suzanne: The problem is endemic, not restricted to CA.
18:00:44 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: there is a logic error in the law!
18:00:56 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:17:58 --- quit: jma (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:21:14 --- join: Forther (~forthman@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
18:21:14 --- quit: Forther (Client Quit)
18:21:36 --- join: Forther (~forthman@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
18:21:42 <Forther> hello
18:21:49 <Speuler> hi
18:21:56 <Forther> Speuler :)
18:22:16 <Forther> I thought I had been online for the entire day and nobody was talking, and then I realized my client had locked up :)
18:23:03 <Speuler> t'is sometimes a quiet channel, but the whole day w/o anything does not happen frequently
18:23:21 <Speuler> don't know about the last two weeks though
18:23:22 <Forther> figured, that is why I restarted the client.  yesterday it was a neat chatfest.
18:23:58 <Forther> messing around right now with bashforth
18:24:22 <Speuler> ah. the coffie-break generator
18:24:33 <Forther> :)  yes it is rather slow, but fun to mess with.
18:24:45 <Forther> I kind alike it, only if I had a 40 ghz system to run it on.
18:24:56 <Forther> 20 seconds to load up and start, shell is such a dog.
18:25:38 <Speuler> about 1 second here 
18:25:42 <gilbertdeb> c'mon forther, it is only 21 ;)
18:25:47 <Forther> gilbertdeb, LOL
18:26:03 <Forther> Speuler, you on a super computer?
18:26:18 <Speuler> nope. celeron 1800
18:26:18 <Forther> I'm running bashforth on a dual PII400 system, supremicro mobo.
18:26:42 <Forther> I'm selling a PIII-1Ghz CPU and fan/sink on fleebay, looks like i will get 70+ bucks for it.
18:26:58 <Speuler> even on my 500 mhz P3 notebook it doesn't take more than 2 seconds
18:27:13 <Forther> I'm now in the hunt for a Celeron/mobo combo.  I heard that the Celerons are actually PIIIs.
18:27:29 <Forther> Speuler, I have a bunch of stuff running on that dual.
18:27:39 <Speuler> smaller cache. i'd go for a non-celeron system
18:27:50 <Forther> It is my webserver, file server, dev system, and more.  :)
18:27:53 <Speuler> they slow the system down a lot
18:28:03 <Forther> It is being used well, oh and I have two instances of seti runninng on it too.
18:28:11 <Speuler> not much cpu power necessary for that
18:28:17 <Speuler> safe cgi
18:28:49 <Speuler> and slower fsb
18:28:56 <Speuler> 100 mhz
18:29:34 <Speuler> wouldn't be a problem, but as cache is smaller too, ram access occurs more frequently
18:29:41 <Forther> I have 100 mhz fsb
18:30:04 <Forther> and then o a couple machines I have DDR running.
18:30:09 <Forther> 2700
18:30:36 <Speuler> i gonna upgrade the cpu of this box soon
18:30:47 <Forther> so, since the Celeron is really a PIII relabeled, maybe I'll get a high end Celeron, 2.0 ghz is where I see the price point is best.
18:30:50 <Forther> to what?
18:30:51 <Speuler> can't even real-time encode/compress video
18:30:55 <Forther> LOL
18:31:05 <Forther> neither can I on my 1.4 Gzh tbirds.
18:31:11 <Speuler> xvid would be ok
18:31:27 <Forther> I heard you need about 2.6+ ghz to do close to real time encoding, divX
18:32:20 <Speuler> i hear athlon 2 to 2.2 (intel-equivalent rating, not clock) would do
18:32:40 <Speuler> and somewhat more with p3/p4
18:33:03 <Speuler> depends on your encoder as well i suppose
18:33:05 <Suzanne> forther, i get 70-80fps encoding, without any filters, on my P4
18:33:24 <Suzanne> forther, a 1.5GHZ P4, or around 1.8Ghz Celeron-4 can get around real-time without filters
18:33:29 <Forther> Suzanne, is that because of the FAST bus speeds?
18:33:51 <Speuler> i get about 15..20 fps  , full size (768x576) with the celeron 1800
18:33:53 <Suzanne> the problem is, most people want at least a de-interlace in the filter stack when encoding
18:33:54 <Forther> Ok, so a 2.0 Ghz Celeron should do the trick then fine and dandy, that is good to know.
18:34:01 <Speuler> need >=25
18:34:02 <Suzanne> and that cuts your fps waaaay down
18:34:12 <Suzanne> Speuler: is that with or without any filters ?
18:34:24 <Forther> Suzanne, where do you get all your brains/power/knowledge?
18:34:26 <Speuler> just encoding
18:34:26 <Suzanne> i'm talking about raw 720x480 source to divx, no filtering anywhere
18:34:37 <Forther> I want to hang with you for a week and suck the lifeblood out of your noggin! :)
18:34:41 <Suzanne> odd, i get about 35-40 fps with a 2Ghz C4
18:35:03 <Speuler> chipset may be an issue to
18:35:04 <Suzanne> and as i said, about 80fps max on my P4 :)
18:35:06 <Speuler> sis here 
18:35:12 <Suzanne> sis on the C4 too
18:35:21 <Forther> sis?  the 745?
18:35:23 <Suzanne> although its the 8x AGP 'new' SiS chipset thats about 3 months old
18:35:25 <Forther> or 735/740?
18:35:30 <Speuler> using mencoder
18:35:38 <Suzanne> speuler, ahh, mencoder is slow :/
18:35:49 <Forther> does anyone use ffmpeg?
18:35:54 <Suzanne> forther, i do, sometimes
18:36:02 <Suzanne> but, like mencoder, it has a habit of desyncing audio often
18:36:02 <Forther> I do, and it works well usually.
18:36:16 <Suzanne> on my G4, however, i can get 120fps raw encoding with ffmpeg :)
18:36:21 <Forther> wow
18:36:24 <Forther> bitchen
18:36:28 <Suzanne> drops VERY fast if i add in de-interlace tho
18:36:35 <Suzanne> i got about 26fps with de-interlace :/
18:36:36 <Forther> what does de-interlacing do?
18:36:50 <Suzanne> forther, merges 2 frames into one
18:36:50 <Forther> seperate field encoding?
18:37:10 <Suzanne> most often, it averages the two framces
18:37:12 <Suzanne> frames
18:37:27 <Forther> why would you want to take two frames and average?
18:37:33 <Suzanne> forther, TV is interlaced
18:37:33 <Forther> isn't there two fields per frame?
18:37:36 <Forther> yes.
18:37:47 <Forther> I realize that, so I'm thinking you would take the two fields and make it ONE frame.
18:37:50 <Suzanne> forther, so your source material is often in the form of 2 720x240 images
18:37:52 <Forther> is that what you mean?
18:37:57 <Forther> okk
18:38:04 <Suzanne> but, interlaced video looks like crap on a monitor
18:38:13 <Speuler> quick motion sux w/o deinterlacing
18:38:14 <Forther> blocky?
18:38:15 <Suzanne> so you want to merge it back into 1 720x480 frame
18:38:29 <Suzanne> forther, not blocky, you just tend to notice the 'streaking' of the edges in motion
18:38:32 <Forther> ok
18:38:43 <Forther> Is there a source of all this info, I want to learn more about it.
18:38:44 <Speuler> comb effect
18:38:46 <Forther> I got a book on DVD.
18:38:57 <Suzanne> if your destination playback device is a TV system, you might as well not de-interlace though
18:39:00 <Forther> I should read it, and then also an online source for encoding.
18:39:07 <Forther> Ok.
18:39:15 <Suzanne> and since i watch all my shows i record/dl on the C4 connected to the TV ... :)
18:39:32 <Forther> So, say I'm going to divX some movies and then play them on a decoder connected to my TV, say on a slow 500 Mhz bookpc, then de-interlacing is meaningless.
18:39:40 <Forther> Ok, got ya.
18:39:47 <Suzanne> also, in a sense, you're better off applying de-interlace at the playback phase, and leaving the divx interlaced
18:39:58 <Forther> giving you options?
18:40:02 <Suzanne> because divx isn't a symmetrical codec - it takes far more CPU power to encode, than decode
18:40:09 <Forther> meaning the destination is then either TV or monitor you cna decide.
18:40:15 <Suzanne> and most any system above about 600Mhz will handle divx playback + de-interlace 'ok'
18:40:21 <Forther> cool.
18:40:37 <Forther> would a Celeron 500 work for divx PB de-interlaced ay think?
18:40:44 <Suzanne> forther, it would be pushing it
18:40:47 <Forther> :)
18:40:55 <Forther> I have this bookpc that I want to use for just that purpose.
18:40:57 <Suzanne> at a guess, it'd be 'ok' most of the time, but you'd see dropped frames
18:41:02 <Forther> Maybe I cna get a fast CPU and then OC it also.
18:41:02 <Speuler> for playing should be allright
18:41:15 <Suzanne> speuler, without the de-interlace on playback, yes
18:41:18 <Speuler> my 400 mhz k6-2 does well playing divx
18:41:19 <Forther> it is a i860 mobo.
18:41:25 <Forther> Speuler, cool!
18:41:34 <Suzanne> oh, i860 :)
18:41:40 <Forther> I felt it would be right on the cusp.
18:41:47 <Speuler> video hardware (zooming/resizing) would be a big help to cpu
18:41:49 <Forther> Yah, one of them tiny mobos.
18:41:58 <Forther> bookpcs are kinda cool.
18:42:00 <Suzanne> forther, intel dropped the ball there...
18:42:07 <Suzanne> forther, they already have a product called the i860 :)
18:42:11 <Suzanne> its an array processor :)
18:42:11 <Forther> oh
18:42:19 <Forther> yes, a seperate i860 processor
18:42:23 <Forther> goes way back to 1991
18:42:37 <Forther> I remember seeing it the first time at MacHack in Mich.
18:42:40 <Forther> I was amazed.
18:42:41 <Suzanne> i have a handful of i960s here too :)
18:42:55 <Suzanne> never worked out what to use them for ;P
18:42:56 <Forther> but this is an i860 chipset mobo.
18:43:08 <Forther> what was the target project you were doing for the i960s
18:43:09 <Suzanne> forther, yeah, confusing choice of name/number, is all i'm saying :)
18:43:17 <Forther> Yes, they did kinda screw things up.
18:43:18 <Forther> :)
18:43:21 <Suzanne> forther, umm, i didn't really have a plan, they were free, so i took them :)
18:43:22 <Forther> I realize what you are saying now.
18:43:27 <Forther> nice.
18:43:30 <Suzanne> i've just never found anything that they really fit into :)
18:43:33 <Forther> sell them online, make some money!
18:43:37 <Suzanne> they're 100Mhz parts, so not that fast...
18:43:40 <Forther> fleebay!
18:43:50 <Suzanne> on the other hand, the i960 really needs a bus controller chip
18:43:59 <Suzanne> (like the MIPS cpus do too)
18:44:06 <Speuler> Forther:  time echo bye | ./bashforth      real    0m0.788s
18:44:08 <Forther> does anyone recommend a FORTH hardware project that is cheap and fun?
18:44:24 <Suzanne> forther, umm, if you're into music, yes, an AVR as a midi filter
18:44:31 <Speuler> building a cpu :)
18:44:52 <Speuler> *what , another ??*
18:44:54 <Forther> Suzanne, you saying I could build an AVR?
18:45:07 <Forther> Speuler, real    0m26.257s 
18:45:09 <Forther> :(
18:45:14 <Suzanne> forther, i'm saying you could build something AROUND an AVR
18:45:22 <Suzanne> and AVR already has a forth system ported to it...
18:45:30 <Suzanne> several, in fact
18:45:32 <Forther> I'm clueless, what is AVR?
18:45:41 <Suzanne> Forther, an 8-bit RISC cpu by Atmel
18:45:49 <Forther> available cheap?
18:45:55 <Suzanne> yes
18:46:03 <Suzanne> just a touch more than a PIC, but WAY more flexible and powerful
18:46:03 <Forther> so who has a system built around it?
18:46:07 <Forther> cool.
18:46:13 <Forther> URL?
18:46:16 <Suzanne> forther, lots of stuff uses AVRs :)
18:46:36 <Forther> thanks for putting up with my dumb ass questions :)
18:46:44 <Suzanne> http://www.atmel.com/products/avr/
18:47:12 <Suzanne> you could even buy the AVR butterfly...
18:47:30 <Forther> I'm kinda looking for neat project kits that are not expensive, build some hardware, then maybe connect via serial and use some local PC software to do the developing and then download to the device and run it.  All for fun.
18:47:34 <Suzanne> which is a pre-build 'evaluation kit' with LCD, buzzer, micro-joystick, that can be reprogrammed, i imagine it could run one of the forth systems
18:47:50 <Forther> cool.
18:48:10 <Suzanne> oh, it also has temperature and light sensors, apparently
18:48:28 <Forther> nice!
18:48:30 <Forther> that would be cool.
18:48:42 <Forther> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?family_id=607&family_name=AVR+8%2DBit+RISC+&tool_id=3146\
18:49:05 <Suzanne> umm
18:49:13 <Suzanne> want to try pasting that url again? i got a 404 on that
18:49:14 <Forther> drop the last backslash.
18:49:16 <Forther> LOL
18:49:34 <Forther> I mashed the keyboard in excitement.
18:49:35 <Forther> :)
18:49:42 <Suzanne> ah, yes, i was already at THAT url :P
18:50:18 <Forther> BTW, friend just asked me to ask you guys about this...  flood coming.
18:50:18 <Forther> BTW, what I AM looking for are at least one matched pair of 3.3V EDO
18:50:19 <Forther> DIMMs (168 Pin).  They must be Unbuffered and 60ns or faster.  ECC
18:50:19 <Forther> preferred, but not required.  2x32mb livable, 2x64mb desirable, 2x128mb
18:50:19 <Forther> orgasmatron.
18:50:34 <Forther> He is looking for those memories, if any of you have htem and want to sell, I'll give you his email.
18:50:40 <Suzanne> heh
18:50:53 <Suzanne> if i had any 64mb edo they'd be in my sampler instead of the 4x32 thats in there now ;P
18:51:13 <Suzanne> oh, mine are simms tho, haven't seen EDO DIMMs for AGES
18:51:22 <Suzanne> has he tried crucial ?
18:51:24 <Speuler> 168 pin EDO ?
18:51:40 <Suzanne> Speuler: yeah, EDO DIMM, they existed for a while, but not long
18:51:42 <Forther> don't know, he just emailed that to me and asked to ask you guys, since I told him you were rocket scientists :)
18:51:59 <Suzanne> forther, hold on, i'll check crucial
18:52:09 <Suzanne> yeah, they have them
18:52:10 <Forther> he is a hardware guru, of the Nth order family.
18:52:18 <Suzanne> 256MB EDO DIMM  $190.99
18:52:20 <Forther> I think he is looking for used cheap.
18:52:21 <Forther> LOL
18:52:25 <Suzanne> 128MB EDO DIMM $85.99
18:52:27 <Forther> I don't think that is what he is looking to pay :(
18:52:33 <Suzanne> 64MB EDO DIMM $80.99
18:52:42 <Forther> ouch
18:52:52 <Suzanne> the 128MBs are buffered, the 64MB unbuffered
18:53:09 <Suzanne> forther, give him this URL: http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT8M64E2D6&cat=RAM
18:53:21 <Forther> ok
18:53:22 <Forther> thanks!
18:53:38 <Suzanne> forther, thats about the best prices you're gonna get on EDO DIMMs, the stuff was never common or cheap
18:53:39 <Forther> just sent it off to him.
18:53:49 <Forther> yah, always afraid of EDO
18:54:05 <Forther> I have a link somewhere on what EDO means and such, but I got the jist that it was kinda rare and expensive.
18:54:26 <Suzanne> no, EDO was common
18:54:31 <Suzanne> but it was rare in DIMM format
18:54:41 <Forther> oh
18:54:53 <Forther> well, here is his entire relevant email to me....
18:54:56 <Forther> flood time again.
18:54:57 <Forther> Want to get my Motorola MTX dual 604e board to fire up and say hello. 
18:54:57 <Forther> These fucking things were EXPENSIVE.  Somthing like $3-4K for the dual
18:54:57 <Forther> model with 512K cache (the one I have) when they came out.  
18:54:57 <Forther> Looks like it is loosely based on CHRP/PREP.  Docs say it runs with
18:54:57 <Forther> pSOSystem, LynxOS, OS-9 (Microware, not Crapple), AIX or VxWorks.  Some
18:54:59 <Forther> info on the web suggests LinuxPPC may run on it also.
18:55:01 <Forther> Dual 300MHz ATX form factor board with a 66MHz bus that consumes (both
18:55:03 <Forther> CPUs and all embedded functions) a total of 45 watts.  Simple passive
18:55:05 <Forther> heatsink attaches to both processors, Pretty Impressive.
18:55:07 <Forther> Originally targeted at the embedded device market.
18:55:21 <Forther> sorry about the cuss words.
18:55:36 <Suzanne> forther, you mean like 'microware' ? :P
18:56:01 <Forther> I'm not sure what he meant.
18:56:05 <Forther> That was the email he sent me.
18:56:23 <Forther> He figured the embedded folks here would know about this type of stuff.
18:59:40 <Forther> btw
18:59:50 --- quit: rk (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:00:02 <Forther> Speuler, 26 seconds to run bashforth, ouch!
19:00:21 --- join: rk (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth
19:00:26 <gilbertdeb> Forther: thats rather odd!
19:00:35 <Forther> gilbertdeb, yep, the real time was 26 seconds.
19:00:36 <gilbertdeb> what else are you running on your machine?
19:00:47 <Speuler> might be worth to benchmark bash
19:00:48 <Forther> lots of stuff, but still, 26 seconds.
19:00:52 <Forther> I think so.
19:00:59 <Forther> any benchmarks for bash you would recommend.
19:01:03 <Forther> I'm running bash 2.04 for beos.
19:01:13 <gilbertdeb> for beeeOS
19:01:16 <gilbertdeb> not leeeNOOOKS
19:01:20 <Forther> beeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzooooooooooooosssssssssss
19:01:33 <Forther> leanocks.
19:01:47 <Speuler> for A in `seq 10000` ; do echo $A ; done
19:02:25 <Speuler> real    0m1.539s
19:02:47 <Forther> date ; i=10000 ; while [ $i -gt 0 ] ; do ((i-=1)) ; done ; date
19:02:48 <Forther> Fri Aug  8 20:02:09 MDT 2003
19:02:48 <Forther> Fri Aug  8 20:02:11 MDT 2003     
19:02:53 <Speuler>  for A in `seq 100000` ; do : ; done
19:02:58 <Speuler> real    0m1.144s
19:03:45 <Forther> how come 'time (  i=10000 ; while [ $i -gt 0 ] ; do ((i-=1)) ; done  )' won't give me th etime for the process :?
19:04:27 <Forther> [beos@dualP2 ~] $ time wanker.sh
19:04:27 <Forther> real    0m2.446s
19:04:35 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth
19:04:37 <Forther> [beos@dualP2 ~] $ cat wanker.sh
19:04:37 <Forther> #!/bin/sh
19:04:37 <Forther> i=10000 ; while [ $i -gt 0 ] ; do ((i-=1)) ; done
19:04:44 <a7r> re..
19:05:05 <Forther> a7r, this is not shell club, we are just benching bash on my system :)
19:05:27 <Forther> hehehehe, sorry for the public displays of shell.
19:05:33 <kc5tja> no problems
19:05:34 <a7r> Forther: it's cool. ;)
19:05:35 <kc5tja> re a7r 
19:05:37 <Speuler> time ./wanker.sh 
19:05:41 <Speuler> real    0m0.434s
19:05:44 <kc5tja> Researching Manson engines.
19:05:49 <kc5tja> These look like fun engines to try and build.
19:05:50 <a7r> dude.. morons on ebay suck.
19:06:03 <a7r> this guy sent me 5 Metcal soldering stations.. all were supposed to be gently used and in working condition.
19:06:05 <Forther> a7r, hey, wait.  I'm on ebay all the time :)
19:06:25 <Forther> a7r, never expect what someone writes, ask for photos.
19:06:37 <a7r> he under packed them, 2 stands were broken, all of the power supplies are slightly abused, and one of them just doesn't drive the iron properly.
19:06:37 <Forther> and even then they are usually not so good as the pictures.
19:06:54 <Forther> well, send them back and leave nasty feedback.
19:07:14 <a7r> http://www.andern.org/alexander/ebay/2546368594/ <- check it.
19:07:19 <Forther> I sold one of my racing biccyles last month, and the freaking wacko gave me negative feedback without ever even letting me know he was unhappy.
19:07:19 <kc5tja> Yeah, e-bay has a rating system for morons.
19:07:21 <a7r> let me find the auction.. so you can read the description.
19:07:41 <Forther> It was IDENTICAL to the photos I had listed.
19:08:17 <Forther> He said I misrepresented the bike.  I'm still unclear how that is even possible with a gallery of photos.  I just asked him to clearify, and he never addressed the problem, just the symptoms, I am still unclear as to why he is unhappy.
19:08:28 <a7r> Forther: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2546368594 
19:08:47 <Forther> Did you get insurance?
19:08:56 <a7r> yup.
19:08:57 <Forther> Also, can you prove he underpacked them, with photos after you opened i tup.
19:09:06 <Forther> Well, demand he cover it, and send them back.
19:09:09 <a7r> I only have the full contents of the box.
19:09:15 <Forther> Take loads of photos.
19:09:18 <a7r> i.e. showing the number of packing peanuts and size of the box.
19:09:27 <a7r> Did you look at the photos from the andern link, and read the description?
19:09:30 <Forther> I open up all items I get at the post office, and take pictures immediately with staff there.
19:09:40 <a7r> `You are bidding on 5 slightly used Metcal Smartheat Rework System MX500P-11.'
19:09:46 <a7r> he says slightly used, and then sends me
19:09:49 <Forther> oh my god!
19:09:52 <a7r> http://www.andern.org/alexander/ebay/2546368594/2546368594-Pages/Image0.html
19:09:55 <Forther> I have looked at the photo you took.
19:09:59 <Forther> He is smoking crack on the packing!
19:10:15 <a7r> he stuck FIVE of these things in that box.
19:10:24 <Forther> Like I said he is smoking crack.
19:10:32 <Forther> Was there any obvious blowout on th side of the box?
19:10:35 <Forther> or undertaped?
19:10:36 <a7r> no
19:10:40 <a7r> the outside looked fine.
19:10:42 <Forther> He is clearly at fault.
19:11:03 <a7r> I have a feeling UPS wouldn't cover it anyway.
19:11:08 <Forther> They will not.
19:11:13 <Forther> that one is clearly the packers problem.
19:11:16 <a7r> yah
19:11:28 <Forther> I'm very conservative in pointing figures, but I have shipped over 1000 items via sales o nebay in 3 years.
19:11:45 <Forther> That is absolutely the worst packing I have ever seen, well aside from one item I got that was pretty wacked out due to poor packing.
19:11:51 <gilbertdeb> Forther: you have THAT much stuff?
19:11:53 <Forther> (an HP 1611 6502 testing station I bought)
19:12:05 <Forther> Dude, I have a 2200 square foot 3 shelved high warehouse.
19:12:09 <Forther> all full of SH*T
19:12:14 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
19:12:18 <Forther> It is insane!
19:12:22 <gilbertdeb> what books do you have on offer?
19:12:28 <Forther> Not many right now.
19:12:38 <Forther> I have a bunch around, I have about 2000-3000 technical books.
19:12:50 <Forther> FORTH stuff I'm 'harboring' for other forth dignitaries.
19:12:54 <gilbertdeb> how did you get all this *stuff*
19:13:15 <a7r> Forther: so I got him to send me 2 new stands to cover the broken ones.. I'm wondering how far I should push the fact the items were misrepresented.
19:13:17 --- quit: Forther (Remote closed the connection)
19:13:29 <a7r> Forther: well, now that one of the power supplies just doesn't work, I'm going to turn up the heat.
19:13:41 <gilbertdeb> forther is no longer with us a7r.
19:13:47 <a7r> yah, I just noticed. ;)
19:14:01 --- join: Forther (~forthman@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
19:14:07 <gilbertdeb> oh hey Forther!
19:14:08 <Forther> sorry about that.
19:14:12 <a7r> hey..
19:14:15 <Forther> I seem to have locked up again, or got booted.
19:14:21 <a7r> Forther: well, now that one of the power supplies just doesn't work, I'm going to turn up the heat.
19:14:40 <Forther> a7r, you can clearly with affidavit get him to cover his ass.
19:15:02 <Forther> He can say you doctored the packing after opening, but either way, create a website for this messup, like I do for every single issue I ever have.
19:15:10 <Forther> I take photos, write up and then leave feedback with the URL.
19:15:10 <a7r> yah
19:15:16 <a7r> that's what I'm going to do.
19:15:24 <a7r> he's got 100% positive feedback right now.. I'll be his first negative.
19:15:27 <Forther> You can't put in http:// but you can out in host.domain.org or whatever.
19:15:36 <Forther> a7r, is he resisting responsibility.
19:16:02 <Forther> He has 100+ feedback and no negative, he may be wlling to refund.
19:16:15 <Forther> at 350 bucks, that is a lot of money to waste.
19:16:30 <Forther> I'm anal about packing.
19:16:49 <a7r> Forther: he's stating that because he stated that the one I'd get wasn't the one in the picture, that I can't complain about the one I got.
19:16:55 <Forther> I take pictures of the item for auction, then again during and while packing closing, and then at the post office with it labeled and cancellation on it.
19:16:56 <a7r> er ones.. there were 5.
19:17:13 <a7r> even when the auction specifically states that they were 'gently used'.
19:17:17 <Forther> a7r, I had a feeling that may be the way 'out' for him.
19:17:27 <Forther> I claim unless stated, you will get EXACTLY what I photo.
19:17:42 <Forther> Yes, but really they were absolutely poorly packaged.
19:17:46 <Forther> That is a completely different issue.
19:17:56 <a7r> nod, my issue isn't the pics, but the statement 'gently used'.. these all have evidence of abuse.
19:18:04 <Forther> This unit is in terrific condition. It works perfectly with no problems.
19:18:08 <Forther> He is screwed.
19:18:10 <Forther> "This unit is in terrific condition. It works perfectly with no problems."
19:18:10 <a7r> i.e. most of the power switches were turned off with a hot soldering iron.
19:18:24 <a7r> you can see where solder stuck into the plastic.
19:18:25 <Forther> You got him on condition of item.
19:18:29 <a7r> yah
19:18:37 <Forther> What he claims in ad, and what arrived are two different things.
19:18:57 <Forther> If the item(s) didn't work upon delivery, and he is at fault for sh***ty packing, then he is screwed.
19:19:05 <Forther> There is no dispute, he is just a PITA.
19:19:15 <a7r> nod.
19:19:36 <Forther> Go to square trade and get this resoled.
19:19:50 <Forther> If he doesn't want to deal with you directly.
19:20:23 <Forther> Also make it clear that you will post to USENET groups he frequents (find out his name and email and search for the groups he solicites) and post your URL to this experience.
19:20:27 <Forther> But don't slander him publically.
19:20:34 <a7r> yah
19:20:37 <a7r> well, here's what I was thinking..
19:20:51 <a7r> I would have been fine if I had paid less for items in this state.
19:21:16 <a7r> so, I'll return the broken one, and he refunds a partial payment, I give him praise, and we call it even.
19:21:19 <Forther> don't try and negotiate a discount.  Demand a refund complete and say then you will leave glowing feedback.
19:21:29 <Forther> that is one way, your thoughts may work.
19:21:34 <a7r> nod.
19:21:37 <Forther> I would consider the path to least resistance.
19:21:41 <Forther> If that is your way, do it.
19:21:58 <Forther> But, realize, he is 'clean' on his feedback, and that is something he will want to keep.
19:22:02 <Forther> Use it to your advantage.
19:22:09 <a7r> yah
19:22:13 <Forther> Say how much you want to avoid leaving negative feedback.
19:22:15 <a7r> that's a major point of leverage.
19:22:16 <Forther> Don't be the bad guy.
19:22:42 <Forther> Tell him how much you want to help him, and how and then close the deal.
19:22:42 <Forther> :)
19:22:47 <a7r> haha
19:23:01 <Forther> give him options, the more the better, but make sure they are all good for you too.
19:23:11 <Forther> He f***ED up big time on that packing.
19:23:24 <Forther> He may as well not put any peanuts in their.
19:23:32 <Forther> Its as if he ran out on your box.
19:23:34 <Forther> LOL
19:23:54 <Forther> Did he individually wrap in paper or some other means the items seperately?
19:24:09 <a7r> no
19:24:16 <a7r> items -> packing peanuts -> box
19:24:33 <Forther> I mean, that is the first thing I would have done, and then layered down with a deck the bottom at 3 inches (required by UPS) and then put them in with nuts around ,and then topped them off OVERFLOWED and sat on the box to tape it shut.
19:24:36 <a7r> I was expecting bubble wrap per item, filling it up with peanuts.
19:24:47 <Forther> Yep, bubble wrap is good stuff.
19:24:59 <Forther> I have loads of it, but I don't use enough, I should use it more.
19:25:08 <Forther> crap is expensive.
19:25:17 <Forther> But really the pain in the arse on this kind of problem is not worht i.t
19:25:51 <Forther> For instance, on that bicycle, I had a professional bicycle dealer deal with it, I took photos of it arriving at the dealership, 3 hours later while box was opened photos of it boxed, and thena gain at the UPS, and then with labels.
19:26:03 <a7r> yah
19:26:04 <Forther> The bike was worth about 4K, so I was taking no chances of being screwed on it.
19:26:14 <Forther> The packing labor was 35 bucks alone.
19:26:18 <Forther> shipping was like 30+
19:27:12 <Forther> it is good you did photos right away, and definitely put up EVERY single email that you send and get from this deal on YOUR own website, and put URLs to it all over the place :)  He'll shape up, and when it is resolved, you can definitely just change the URL content to be 'all rsolved'.
19:27:44 <Forther> :)  ebay is funny, they technically don't allowyou to put feedback with URLs, and they filter for it when you leave feedback, but they don't check for none http://  stuff.
19:28:01 <a7r> nod.
19:28:17 <kc5tja> Even if they did, you can do stuff like www dot fubar dot com
19:28:25 <Forther> So, after this jerk left me some shitty feedback without even letting me know why or such, I just left him feedbakc with ' go to  paul-hill-sucks.dyndns.org  for details '
19:28:37 <a7r> Forther: thanks a lot for the comments,.. 
19:28:41 * a7r splits for dinner.
19:28:46 * a7r is away: dinner
19:28:47 <Forther> a7r later.
19:28:59 --- quit: Forther ()
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19:30:12 <kc5tja> Neat.  I don't know why I didn't do this before.  The balloon/straw/rubberband idea, when combined with a bicycle pump, makes for a nice semi-calibrated source of a constant volume of air.
19:30:28 <kc5tja> This will be quite helpful in playing with my model turbines.
19:30:36 <Forther> kc5tja, drawings and details?
19:30:55 <kc5tja> 9" rubber ballon, with a straw placed into the nozzle.
19:30:58 <gilbertdeb> I've now decided I rule.
19:31:00 <kc5tja> Seal with an elastic band.
19:31:02 <gilbertdeb> I got plan9 working :)
19:31:13 <kc5tja> No drawings are necessary.
19:31:20 <Forther> kc5tja, ok dokay.
19:31:25 <Forther> gilbertdeb, on what hardware?
19:31:47 <Forther> btw, would someone copy and past the ULR to that AVR device again, lost it and this client doesn't have logging.
19:31:49 <Forther> thanks.
19:32:09 <Forther> ok, found it :)
19:32:17 <Forther> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?family_id=607&family_name=AVR+8%2DBit+RISC+&tool_id=3146
19:32:23 <Forther> hehehe, browser has history :)
19:32:23 <gilbertdeb> Forther on a inspiron 3200
19:32:33 <gilbertdeb> it took a while ... 3 weeks
19:32:38 <kc5tja> OK, CTCP support on the new IRC server is borken.
19:32:39 <gilbertdeb> but its because I was using the wrong CD
19:32:46 <gilbertdeb> what is CTCP?
19:32:53 <Forther> http://members.tripod.com/jeffchiu/linux-i3200.html
19:33:02 <kc5tja> Something having to do with IRC.
19:33:07 <kc5tja>  /ping uses CTCP for example
19:33:42 <Forther> gilbertdeb, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3425897373&category=42199
19:33:48 <Forther> pretty inexpensive portable.
19:34:00 <Forther> how does plan9 work on it, pretty well?
19:34:12 <gilbertdeb> No kidding! 
19:34:14 <gilbertdeb> that is cheap!!!
19:34:22 <gilbertdeb> yes, it works well.
19:34:32 <Forther> GUI? == X
19:34:32 <gilbertdeb> except that my NIC is not supported.
19:34:34 <gilbertdeb> yet.
19:34:39 <gilbertdeb> it has rio
19:34:45 <gilbertdeb> and something else all to gether.
19:34:49 <Forther> " Buyer agrees to pay $35.00 for packing, handling, shipping, and insurance VIA Ground Airborne."
19:34:54 <Forther> no wonder it went so cheap.
19:34:55 <gilbertdeb> heheh
19:34:58 <Forther> bend me over shipping.
19:35:06 <Forther> try about 15 to 20 max.
19:35:10 <gilbertdeb> Ben Dover shipping ;)
19:35:24 <Forther> "84 negatives. 70 are from unique users."
19:36:15 <gilbertdeb> excellent :)
19:36:22 <Forther> LOL
19:36:42 <Forther> Is this a pretty good equivalent for 0SP ?
19:36:43 <Forther> : 0sp ( ??? -- )   depth 0 ?do drop loop  ;
19:37:20 <Forther> bashforth doesn't have 0sp, so the maker of bashforth came up with that for me :)
19:37:28 <Forther> Nice guy actually, really helpful and responsive!
19:37:32 <gilbertdeb> hehehe
19:37:39 <kc5tja> That is reasonable.
19:38:24 <kc5tja> That just takes some time to execute, but really, if you need 0sp, something really is awry, and getting it done quickly is the least of your worries.  :D
19:38:36 <Forther> LOL
19:38:40 <Forther> that is true.
19:38:50 <Forther> btw, ': 0sp ( ??? -- )   depth 0 ?do drop loop  ;' doesn't work with 2.04 bash :)
19:39:08 <Forther> get a flood of '/boot/home/config/bin/bashforth: s: bad array subscript
19:39:14 <Forther> LOL
19:39:18 <Forther> I'll have to right him now.
19:39:20 <Forther> hehehehe
19:47:32 --- quit: a7r (No route to host)
19:48:57 --- quit: Forther (Remote closed the connection)
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20:22:56 --- quit: Speuler (Nick collision from services.)
20:22:59 --- nick: CaffeineJunkie -> Speuler
20:24:57 <Speuler> Nick collision from services ?
20:25:16 <gilbertdeb> No.
20:25:39 <Speuler> it says here:  <-- Speuler has quit (Nick collision from services.)
20:27:36 <kc5tja> Sounds like a symptom of netsplit.
20:28:09 <Suzanne> or nickserv
20:29:05 <Speuler> was the 24h adsl disconnect from my side
20:29:50 <Suzanne> i don't think thats a real (as in, from a netsplit, server generated) 'Nick Collision' quit message anyway, isn't the format usually 'Killed: Nick Collision (server-address)'
20:29:59 <Speuler> never seen that disconnect message before
20:30:01 <kc5tja> Yep
20:30:22 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:30:32 <Speuler> yes, that one i know too :)
20:30:37 <Suzanne> heh
20:30:47 * Speuler alias semtex
20:31:01 <Speuler> was client on another machine
20:31:45 <Suzanne> Killed: G-Line is my favorite, but thankfully, i don't see it often :P
21:00:07 --- quit: skylan ("Reconnecting")
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21:00:15 --- join: draq (ident@203-219-179-14-nsw.tpgi.com.au) joined #forth
21:57:18 --- quit: draq (Remote closed the connection)
22:00:46 --- quit: Forther ()
22:01:44 <kc5tja> hmmm
22:02:02 <kc5tja> Racheting-type CVTs are interesting.  I didn't know that one could make a rachet capable of delivering the torque that a car would require.
22:02:13 <kc5tja> Especially one that lasted long and was particularly quiet.
22:07:29 <gilbertdeb> ummm a who?
22:07:43 * ian_p is always in the dark here
22:07:47 <ian_p> i like it ;)
22:07:49 <gilbertdeb> :)
22:07:51 <gilbertdeb> heheh
22:10:25 <kc5tja> You know how a rachet works, right?
22:10:33 <kc5tja> As in a rachet wrench?
22:10:36 <gilbertdeb> yes
22:10:55 <kc5tja> There is a way to use that same mechanism to make a continuously variable transmission.
22:11:00 <kc5tja> Several different methods, actually.
22:11:41 <kc5tja> Imagine an automatic transmission with an infinite number of gears, selected automatically to give ideal sports or fuel economies (depending on your choice of transmission setting).
22:12:33 <ian_p> whoa
22:13:44 <gilbertdeb> infinite == what 7?
22:13:46 <gilbertdeb> or 6?
22:13:53 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Aleph naught.
22:14:04 <gilbertdeb> heheh
22:14:05 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: The gear ratio is infinitely variable -- as in INFINITE.
22:14:29 <kc5tja> There are cars today that have CVTs in them.
22:14:34 <kc5tja> You should drive one some time.  They're neat.
22:14:57 <gilbertdeb> like which one?
22:15:01 <kc5tja> They keep the engine smack where it should be for the desired power.  You don't hear the engine 'rev' like you do in other transmission types.
22:15:19 <kc5tja> Honda Civics, Saturn Vue, Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, ...
22:15:48 <ian_p> awesome :)
22:15:50 <gilbertdeb> hmmm. the toyota prius also has that non-diesel diesel-like engine right?
22:16:15 <ian_p> or rather lots less awful
22:16:29 <gilbertdeb> ian_p har har har.
22:16:37 <ian_p> :>
22:16:39 <gilbertdeb> ian_p big fan of terry pratchett?
22:16:54 <ian_p> not familiar
22:17:03 <gilbertdeb> I read the following: "The late BJ Johnson, or the severly delayed"
22:17:14 <gilbertdeb> ian_p he wrote that ^
22:17:17 <kc5tja> It has a Miller cycle engine, yes.
22:18:12 <kc5tja> The Prius uses a planetary gear for its CVT (the most elegent and simple CVT I've ever seen) coupled to two electric motor/generators (they can be either, depending on how fast you're going) to provide an infinite number of gear ratios there too.
22:21:22 <gilbertdeb> it is a very new model!
22:23:31 <kc5tja> What is?
22:23:33 <kc5tja> The Prius?
22:23:36 <kc5tja> It's been around since 2000.
22:24:16 <kc5tja> Although the 2004 Prius uses a larger engine and more powerful motors, I think its PSD (Power Splitting Device -- its CVT, basically) is still the same.
22:53:54 --- join: Forther (~forthman@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth
22:54:11 <Forther> hello
22:55:15 <Forther> just in case anyone cares, http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf0/sf0.html has the SF book online, I emailed Leo about 2 years ago requesting permission to put the book online, he deferred to Elizabeth who then promptly said 'forgettaboutit'...  :)  Well, good things comes to those who wait.
22:55:26 <Forther> I'm glad it is online.
22:56:38 <gilbertdeb> Isn't it great?
23:05:10 <Forther> Yes, I own the book myself, many copies actually, but it sure is good to have it online regardless of what some protective financially motivated person wants.  Anarchy is good when you are not on the wrong side of the law/stick :)
23:05:40 <Forther> I would have paid 2-3 bucks for the online version even after owning the book.
23:05:54 <Forther> I still will, it is great to be able to take it and read it, I'm very happy it is online, very.
23:06:20 <Forther> I actually went ahead about 1.5 years ago and scanned in the book, the resulting PDF full of images was HUGE.
23:09:11 <Forther> Does Randy Hyde ever come around or is he primarily into ASM?
23:10:15 <gilbertdeb> who is he?
23:10:19 <gilbertdeb> he never comes here.
23:10:22 <Forther> ok
23:10:28 <gilbertdeb> is he into forth as well?
23:10:39 <Forther> thanks anyway, he is a ASM hacker, he does embedded systems, but likely with ASM only.
23:10:49 <Forther> Just thought maybe he would drop in possibly.
23:10:52 <Forther> No biggy.
23:10:59 <Forther> http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/About.html
23:12:03 <gilbertdeb> I've seen his book before.
23:12:05 <gilbertdeb> it is massive!
23:12:45 <Forther> http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/Page_AoALinux/PDFs/0_PDFIndexLinux.html
23:12:48 <Forther> online and free
23:12:48 <Forther> :)
23:12:59 <Forther> gotta love the people that desire and spend a lifetime helping others.
23:14:40 <Forther> http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/Page_AoALinux/aoapdf.tar.gz
23:14:44 <Forther> that is the entire text, yes it is huge.
23:14:48 <Forther> hopefully it is useful.
23:14:51 <Forther> and complete.
23:14:54 <gilbertdeb> yeah thats what I saw.
23:15:43 <Forther> now I get to spend the next week reading that book online, burning my eyes out.
23:15:55 <Forther> I'll be back in 1-2 weeks after I read it, later all, take care and talk soon.
23:15:58 --- quit: Forther ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.08