00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.07 00:44:28 --- quit: ian_p (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:44:53 --- join: ian_p (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 00:57:23 Back, but I'll be going to bed soon. 00:57:26 --- nick: kc-movie -> kc5tja 01:10:25 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 02:02:33 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbertde@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-88.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 02:03:07 --- quit: gilbertdeb (Remote closed the connection) 05:09:25 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 05:09:31 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 06:01:00 --- join: draq (ident@203-219-179-14-nsw.tpgi.com.au) joined #forth 07:52:07 --- join: Igro (~Igro@108.234.88.213.host.songnetworks.se) joined #forth 07:53:34 damn, http://forth.bespin.org/ got really fresh-lookin design 07:54:51 anyone awake? 07:56:59 --- quit: draq (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:58:05 --- join: rO| (~rO|@pD9545EA7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 07:58:30 --- part: Igro left #forth 07:58:43 elo# 07:58:54 elo ooo 07:59:17 ah... 07:59:28 topic is back again 09:11:56 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-127-122.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 09:11:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:22:57 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81775.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 09:39:41 forth.bespin.org does look nice :) kc5tja, was that you? looks great in lynx too 09:41:13 Actually, it's Plone. 09:41:20 That's pretty much how it looks out of the box. 09:42:12 Very little graphics; mostly text based with cascading stylesheets. 09:44:29 it's cool 09:44:38 that's how the web should be mostly 09:45:33 * kc5tja 's website is done similarly -- using XHTML (though rendered as regular HTML) and CSS. 09:45:42 Though, one could argue it's not nearly as pretty. :) 09:45:47 But I like it's simplicity. 09:46:02 My site activity is actually starting to increase too. I find that intriguing. 09:46:15 * kc5tja is probably going to open up web development services to a nationwide audience. 09:58:43 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 09:59:36 kc5tja: hi. is it xhtml rendered from xml? 09:59:53 hey 09:59:59 re a7r 10:00:02 re ro| 10:00:14 rO|: XHTML is HTML that also is valid XML at the same time. 10:01:40 but in fact it is html too ;-) 10:02:08 Yes. 10:02:19 afaik xml is for separating content from design 10:02:44 Yes. 10:03:02 so my curiousity ;-) was about: do you model content trees? 10:03:05 To certify for XHTML compliance, you cannot have anything which mixes the two. 10:03:17 Stylistic stuff is all kept in CSS files. 10:04:51 but: you need html tags which are not inside the css. probably better should say content vs layout(html) and design(css) 10:06:46 nm, just curious ;-) 10:07:50 i'm modeling databases(sql and access) in xml apriori now 10:11:10 Well, yes, you do need HTML tags. 10:11:16 But the tags do not have style information in them. 10:11:26 I know -- I spent three months trying to figure out why my pages won't certify. 10:11:33 It was very frustrating. 10:13:17 hmm besides the hype, xml can be quite helpful (in some cases..) 10:13:53 kc5tja: by certify you mean validate as valid xhtml? 10:14:07 Yes. 10:14:46 I see. I haven't tried it yet, but I got the empression that xhtml validators haven't gotten as sophisticated as html ones. 10:15:12 XHTML isn't very sophisticated. 10:15:24 Frankly, it's HTML the way it should hav evolved. 10:15:30 Now that I'm used to it, I won't use anything else. 10:15:34 rO|: yeah, I dislike xml most of the time, but I think that's just because it's massive overkill for most things I see using xml. 10:16:15 It is. 10:16:23 * kc5tja overwhelmingly prefers IFF files to XML files. 10:17:00 But then, I come from an Amiga background, where once again, Amiga's IFF (binary at that!) files has been doing the same things that XML has been doing, in a much more compact fashion. 10:17:27 kc5tja: interesting :-) ... ;-) 10:19:37 kc5tja: I want a binary representation that has something of the structure and flexibility of xml. 10:19:48 I'm not willing to take on the parsing complexity of xml 10:20:02 Herkamire: ASN.1? ;) 10:20:44 Herkamire: You might want to read up on the EA-IFF-85 file standard. It's a HELL of a lot easier to write a reader/writer for, I think. 10:20:56 I want something with length counters all over, and no terminators (aka close tags) 10:21:36 a7r: what's ASN.1? 10:21:57 Herkamire: a binary encoding standard, structured.. SNMP and friends use it. 10:22:02 kc5tja: I'll put it on my list :) I'm not to the point of having data besides colorforth source 10:22:19 a7r: what's SNMP? :) 10:22:47 ASN.1 is a sucky representation. I hate it. :( 10:24:13 yah, it sucks. 10:24:19 Herkamire: a network management protocol. 10:26:34 what's the S then? 10:27:47 BBIAB (shower) 10:46:47 back 11:05:32 --- quit: wossname ("i hate everything that you believe in. you are wrong.") 12:25:23 --- join: gilbertdeb (gilbert@fl-nken-u2-c3b-118.miamfl.adelphia.net) joined #forth 12:25:42 aloha 12:27:27 howdy 12:28:18 your domainname looks like mi ami.. 12:28:22 it is. 12:28:47 hmm how's the weather ;-) 12:28:49 don't envy me: this isn't the center of geekdom. 12:29:00 sun is shining, it might rain in a minute or so. 12:29:20 ah and it is hard to find cheap computer parts without travelling all over the place. 12:29:41 aww.. 12:30:00 much simpler to buy it off ebay actually. 12:30:28 btw i'm looking for a netgear router.. 12:30:45 hmmm. don't have one. 12:31:11 Yes, typical Florida weather -- daily torrential downpours, lasting 30s to about 5 minutes. But then, after said rain, wait about 1 minute 30 seoncds -- the road will be *dry*. :) 12:31:41 What kind of router? Cable/DSL type router? 12:31:55 yup +vpn 12:32:17 kc5tja: exactly what the weather is like :) 12:33:17 * rO| wondering if a vigor would be better 12:33:47 I have an uncle who lives in Jupiter (versus ON Jupiter -- completely different place!), and I used to visit him when I was younger. 12:34:20 hehehe. 12:34:30 ON jupiter. 12:34:31 right. 13:03:36 --- join: Suzanne (~suzanne@65-73-36-148.bras01.mdl.ny.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 13:03:49 YEEHAA! Just got some repeat business. 13:03:53 Gotta go make some cash. 13:04:01 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 13:04:48 anyone able to help with a newbie question? i need to CREATE within a word 13:06:44 --- quit: rk ("Client Exiting") 13:06:50 ie, i need to do something like : test 1024 CREATE myarray ALLOT ; but of course myarray is an undefined word 13:07:33 --- join: rk (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 13:07:52 --- quit: rk (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:09:22 If you took out the 'myarray' you could use use what you have: test myarray 13:09:47 trey, from the interpreter, yes but i need it to be in a word 13:10:23 : test ... ; IMMEDIATE 13:10:23 if i do : my-create 1024 CREATE ALLOT ; i still can't do : test my-create myarray ; 13:12:39 --- join: rk (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 13:12:46 I don't really understand what you want to do, Suzanne. 13:15:54 Suzanne: btw is this for fun? 13:16:09 * TreyB goes afk 13:16:39 gilbertdeb: sort of, why? 13:17:05 just wondering. 13:17:10 ah 13:17:14 --- join: DoSPro (~lou@193.95.100.246) joined #forth 13:17:27 emmm how did you come to meet forth? 13:17:52 its a long story, tbh 13:18:01 :) 13:18:08 the 4thers the are, the better. 13:18:16 the more* 13:18:30 my spelling's shot. 13:18:31 n/m 13:19:15 i sort of got introduced for forth a bit about 11 years ago by someone reasonably well known in the field of forth, and just decided recently that for something i'm doing that'll run on a small system, forth would be easier than asm+C 13:19:25 erm, 'to forth' that is 13:20:15 --- quit: rk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:20:27 --- join: rk_ (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 13:20:48 have you written a 4th yet? 13:21:09 --- nick: rk_ -> rk 13:21:13 not yet 13:21:23 i've written non-forth stack machines in the past tho 13:21:46 what were they called? 13:21:51 or what were they like? 13:21:54 oh, nothing that got released 13:22:33 what did you write them in? 13:22:36 they were just fairly simple stack machines, nothing as complex as a dictionary 13:23:32 as toys? or for practical reasons? 13:23:33 asm, C, i think i even wrote one in fortran once :) a stack machine tends to be one of the things that i end up turning to when i need some kind of interpreted language within a program 13:23:46 interesting. 13:23:53 what sort of programs do you tend to write? 13:24:07 btw some would point you at lisp for that sort of work :D 13:24:25 lisp always strikes me as heavily bloated, tbh 13:24:31 although i must admit to being an emacs user :P 13:24:32 scheme too? 13:24:37 NOOOOo! 13:24:39 i've never tried scheme 13:24:51 no vi? vim? ed? 13:25:13 i use vim sometimes, but if i'm going to sit in an editor window all day long, i find vi/vim too painful 13:25:47 hrmm 13:26:07 every1 1 should write his/her own editor ;) 13:26:21 no, everyone should try acme/wily 13:26:24 onetom, done that before, too 13:26:33 in fact, an editor was part of the coursework at uni :P 13:26:43 hehe. thats great 13:27:03 a colorforth editor of mine is also under development 13:27:04 Suzanne: what sort of programs is it you write that need their own interpreters? 13:27:16 gilbertdeb: i write all kind of programs :) 13:27:17 onetom: s/editor of mine/ed/ :) 13:27:34 Suzanne: and they all need their own interpreters? 13:27:48 gilbertdeb: sometimes, more often than not it makes things easier, yes 13:27:52 gilbertdeb: :) 13:28:05 Suzanne: can you give an example? 13:28:09 gilbertdeb: cf ed -- rather 13:28:22 this is going right into the 4th publicity stuff. 13:28:34 cf ed. too bloated :D 13:28:41 sure 13:28:51 thats why i named its simply -- ced ;) 13:29:01 gilbertdeb: for example, my major fortran experience comes from working for a chemical company as an 'intern' (or the UK equivalent - work placement) it was a huge product that managed chemical plants by accessing data from sensors and charting it on vt340s, there were places in there where an interpreted 'script' could be useful 13:29:21 gilbertdeb: i worked in the games industry for a couple of years, again, some kind of interpreted 'scripting' is often useful there... 13:29:41 then after that, i worked in telecoms dealing with automatic test suite software 13:29:49 http://cab.bio.u-szeged.hu/ced -- tho its still experimental 13:29:52 again, i'm sure you can imagine, some kind of scripting is essential there :) 13:30:16 and when you come down to it, the fastest way to do any kind of scripting system, is a stack machine 13:31:13 Suzanne: its essential gold what u say ;) 13:32:07 onetom, just logical really, if you want a quick and easy script system, you don't want to be spending half your time writing a damned infix parser :) 13:32:55 Suzanne: & what do u think about the color4th concept? 13:33:16 onetom, i read a bit about it yesterday, i had a few moments of 'wtf' 13:33:23 lolll 13:33:42 like, how do you represent a color in a text document without using markup which will end up taking up more space than the characters you save 13:33:51 okay, thats just the way falling in love w it 13:34:02 --- part: DoSPro left #forth 13:34:10 iirc, red word = : word so i don't see how you're going to represent 'red' in a markup that takes less space than 2 chars :) 13:34:51 u simply redefine "text document" is, & here u r -- a lot of nonproblems have been solved 13:35:13 onetom, either way, you're goint to have to represent the colors some way 13:35:29 what ^ 13:35:40 sure 13:35:40 ... going to have to ... 13:35:53 w a byte 13:36:15 so the total number of colors is 8? 13:36:28 ? 13:36:33 gilbertdeb: no, in theory, there are lots of ascii chars not being used directly... 13:36:42 gilbertdeb: it still seems a little strange way of doing things though 13:36:57 w a byte 13:37:03 @ the 1st time, of course its strange 13:37:08 Suzanne: honestly, I do not understand cf AT all. 13:37:09 at all. 13:37:26 but imagine how should a txt processing tool be modified 13:37:38 2 b able 2 handle such a color txt 13:37:51 onetom, one problem i have with it... 13:38:04 is that i like my context coloring to be configurable :) 13:38:26 i have a hard time seeing blue, if 'blue text' becomes part of the language, then i have no choice as to how my editor can display that blue word really 13:38:46 it is opensourced, they say. 13:38:47 oh, thats not a problem at all 13:38:56 u just have 2 configure the right sade 13:38:58 shade 13:39:15 onetom, true, but then it can make the language ambiguous :) 13:39:18 of the colors "fixed" by the lang 13:39:30 errr... why? 13:39:45 if i define blue to be so bright that to someone else it looks more 'white' then it has introduced ambiguity on the part of someone looking at my editor 13:39:54 aha 13:40:15 but ever1 should read it w his/her own tools 13:40:22 onetom, thats fine in theory 13:40:31 what respect their personal color palette 13:40:33 but in the real world, you often have someone staring over your shoulder at your code :) 13:40:44 & if the tools r able 2 handle colored txt 13:41:12 u dont have 2 refer 2 the "colors" by word, u just simply have 2 use them 13:41:36 i'm still not really sure what problem its trying to solve though 13:41:41 onetom: how is it better than forth? 13:41:46 its a "staring over"-proof src representation ;) 13:41:53 is : word ... so 'confusing' that you need to change it to word 'in red' ? 13:42:14 Suzanne: you mean word don't you? ;) 13:42:29 if he needed the syntax to be highlighted, why not just use any of the number of syntax/context highlighting editors ? 13:43:04 i think cf is a little more than syntax coloring and hilighting. 13:43:15 gilbertdeb: its more conscise, but still remains -- because of the colors -- comprehendable 13:43:25 gilbertdeb: i'm sure it is, but i still haven't seen what the problem it's trying to solve is... 13:43:30 onetom: have you seen 'k'. 13:43:37 gilbertdeb: if i saw that problem, perhaps i'd understand the motivation more 13:43:37 gilbertdeb: but what is more important: its STATELESS 13:43:38 that is even MORE concise. to the extreme. 13:43:45 in a sense of course 13:44:29 k? 13:44:34 onetom: how would you display hello, world in colorforth? 13:45:38 :) 13:45:59 in chucks forth its a good joke, yes 13:46:18 onetom: k: http://kx.com/a/k/examples/xhtml.k 13:46:26 Suzanne: the motivation was simplicity 13:47:00 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81775.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:47:06 Suzanne: chuck has eliminated as much elements from his traditional 4th as much he could 13:47:42 hello, world in cf? 13:48:05 ? 13:48:14 every language has to produce that :) 13:48:31 * onetom uses enth/flux 13:48:43 ah you don't use cf? 13:48:45 its ." hello, world" in it 13:48:52 it IS a cf 13:52:42 Suzanne: he has also managed 2 eliminate the need of the STATE variable & so the IMMEDIATE flag from the word headers and the difference between the "compiling an immediate/non-immediate word" has also gone, etc 13:53:56 Suzanne: this way the speed of the txt interpreter has raised @ the complexity has lowered 13:54:57 Suzanne: this representation also makes it possible - w a fair amount of devel time - that let the source b stored & edited in a "precompiled" form 13:56:26 where not the words, but their re.... huffman-code/hash/token is stored 13:57:52 this idea made the compilation so fast, that even the programming structures could change 13:58:31 if you say so :) 13:58:35 u can "compile" the precompiled src of even interrupt routines @ runtime 13:59:08 u dont have to maintain a parallel binary version from ur programs 13:59:51 coz they get compiled so fast that its reasonable 2 compile the @ usage time 14:00:13 this also simplifies version managment 14:00:14 etc 14:00:33 reduces bandwidth... 14:04:00 Suzanne: btw, have u seen squeak.org? 14:04:22 Suzanne: its another dazzling piece of sw 14:04:32 onetom, yeah, i know of squeak 14:05:01 Suzanne: that is? have u also programmed it? 14:05:14 s/have/did 14:05:17 i've been programming in smalltalk since 1991ish, on and off 14:05:23 wow 14:05:57 im just about on the way conquering the smalltalk empire 14:06:04 i must admit to having been more a fan of mst (now GNU smalltalk) than the Smalltalk/V alike 'GUI, language, environment all in one' approach, though 14:06:14 & what st did u use & what 4? 14:06:39 why? 14:06:52 onetom, i've used mst (which became GNU smalltalk) and Smalltalk/V-386 in the early days, and Squeak recently :) 14:07:09 onetom, because i could never quite get to like the way the Smalltalk/V GUI works 14:07:31 but squeak is okay, isnt it? 14:07:48 its ok, but it still has a lot of the Smalltalk/V idioms 14:07:56 like what? 14:08:12 having to select code, and then either press a specific key, or choose a menu item, to run it, was always one of the things that annoyed me 14:08:26 do i bore u askin questions about st? 14:08:32 coz i have a lot of 14:08:34 lol, no, not really 14:08:47 #squeak was not the right place 2 ask them 14:09:02 wow, what DO they expect you to talk about over there ? 14:09:14 there live 2 much highly qualified st geeks 14:09:20 ah, heh 14:09:34 well... actually.... 14:09:41 i have 2 admit a thing.. 14:10:03 ive been kick twice because of me braindamaged spellin 14:10:27 you should ask them how their hungarian is :P 14:10:38 water - the fater of #squeak - put me on ignore :/ 14:10:42 :))) 14:10:44 thx 14:11:10 u know a girlfirend of mine is a linguist 14:11:29 & a know 2 much about believes about natural languages 14:11:42 & i stick 2 some concepts 14:12:07 like this: fuckin up a language w weired spelling is not evil at all, 14:12:27 coz languages evolve 14:12:35 yeah 14:12:40 and mutation is the core of evolution 14:13:09 if we talk about programming we use abbrevs inherently 14:13:28 eg the keywords/func names/words of that lang 14:13:42 & we r able 2 decode it 14:13:50 *nod* 14:14:12 so whats the problem w "macroing" natural lang... 14:14:15 anyway :) 14:14:16 so 14:14:39 i have some squeak - sq 4 short further on - realted Qs 14:14:42 afk for a bit, anyway 14:14:49 k 14:15:39 1, how can i navigate in the window stack? (i have hungarian kbd layout, so \ doesnt work) 14:16:30 2, how can i realize a mouse-over focus policy 14:16:50 3, how can i make kbd associations in general 14:17:50 * onetom < coffe 14:34:02 wow, we apear to have a female present ;) 14:34:13 gilbertdeb: 3/wow 14:34:47 Herkamire: @least his name suggests it ;) 14:35:26 Suzanne: no harm intended. just joking. ur sex is irrelevant here - i think 14:37:17 I don't think you answered Suzanne's question about color markup. 14:37:35 Suzanne: colorforth does not use ascii representation for source code 14:37:38 Herkamire: could b :) 14:37:46 im confused nowdays a bit 14:37:54 Herkamire: err.... 14:38:04 Herkamire: chucks version @ least 14:38:26 Herkamire: flux uses a rather ascii-ish representation 14:39:27 Chuck's cf stores the source in 4byte chucks which consist of (I think three) color bits, and the text characters (from his own char table) encoded using some huffman-like encoding. 14:39:42 (4byte chucks ;) 14:40:03 my cf and I believe flux also, stores the source code as color bits, and (for words) a dictionary offset ored together 14:40:26 onetom: how's enth growing? last i know is v0.4 14:40:27 I use 16 bits to hold the color (4 bits) and the dict offset. 14:40:28 Herkamire: no. just have a look @ it 14:40:47 rO|: its stucked unfortunately 14:40:53 for small numbers the 12 data bits are the number in binary, for large ones it's an offset into a table of literals 14:42:23 (in mine anyway) 14:42:40 onetom: are you actively developing enth? 14:42:51 Herkamire: u mean every character has a color, not just words? 14:42:51 this simplifies things even more because there are no dictionary searches it compile time or runtime 14:43:08 onetom: character? 14:43:11 rO|: no, i never developed it, just i helped my father using it 14:43:17 onetom: or submitting patches? 14:43:18 ...ijust.. 14:43:25 my source blocks are a series of 16 bit source tokens. 14:43:37 the low 4 bits are color (which determine what the other 12 bits mean) 14:43:38 rO|: but i have the seeds of a color editor 4 it 14:44:02 for words (define, execute, and compile colors) the 12 bits are a dictionary offset (the dictionary has the string for the word in it) 14:44:03 onetom: what does your father w/ it? 14:45:17 flux doesn't have a cf editor?? 14:46:50 right now in my forth (since I'm still developing the editor) I'm still using vim. so I have a pretty standard ascii files 14:46:59 but before I run my forth I encode them into cf blocks 14:47:31 --- join: jamc (~user@as3-6-8.asp.s.bonet.se) joined #forth 14:47:51 that's just a temporary solution until I finish the editor and get it bootstraping 14:48:23 also text files work very well with my version controll software (svn) 14:48:45 Herkamire: 14:48:54 00000080 45 52 54 03 6D 6F 64 65 2E 03 53 70 65 63 69 61 ERT.mode..Specia 14:48:54 00000090 6C 03 6B 65 79 73 3A 13 11 46 31 02 46 32 03 46 l.keys:..F1.F2.F 14:48:54 000000A0 33 04 46 34 05 46 35 06 46 36 07 46 37 0A 46 31 3.F4.F5.F6.F7.F1 14:48:54 000000B0 30 03 66 75 6E 63 74 69 6F 6E 03 6B 65 79 73 03 0.function.keys. 14:49:13 once I get the system booting, I expect I'll stop using vim, and write a decoder that will convert my cf blocks to ascii 14:49:21 cab:~/flux# dd if=SOURCE.BLK bs=1k count=1 skip=64 14:49:35 ^excerpt from the output of the above command 14:49:45 source.blk is from enth04.zip 14:50:08 Herkamire: of course it has an editor, but it only runs under flux 14:50:45 Herkamire: so u r sticked w flux as an operating enviroment, what sux, coz it only has an fdd driver 14:50:59 no hdd/serial/lan drvs 14:51:23 I don't have x86 so I can't run flux 14:51:28 rO|: my fater is a hw developer 14:51:45 looks like I was wrong, and flux does not store source in fixed length tokens with dict offsets 14:51:49 Herkamire: thats why i introduce it 2 u ;) 14:52:07 onetom: introduce what? flux? 14:52:09 yeah, it doesnt. is more "dumb" 14:52:11 yep 14:52:18 in an offline way :) 14:52:23 I know something about flux. I tried to get it to work, but failed 14:52:30 onetom: what kind of hw? 14:53:07 rO|: pic micros ADCs&DACs connected 2 them 14:53:30 nice 14:53:38 rO|: realtime data aquisition mainly 4 biological research hw 14:54:05 we also use picforth - the 1 based on mary 14:54:19 it rox 14:54:39 onetom: sounds interesting... ;-) 14:54:58 maybe Jeff Fox and I are the only ones storing dict offsets in the source 14:55:27 & 2 put the crown on top of all these, me father has also started 2 play w SOL on a 80286 mono laptop :) 14:55:29 makes the compiler sooooo simple 14:56:04 Herkamire: /me gonna follow u some time ;) 14:56:17 onetom: heh :) nice 14:56:25 12bit.. 4k? not bad.. 14:56:34 will consider it 14:56:39 I just picked out all the ideas I liked and put them all together in one forth :) 14:57:12 onetom: I may have to go up to 32 bit source tokens, but I'm sure that won't be too hard. The main bother will be breaking my source into smaller blocks probably :) 14:58:07 yeah 14:59:21 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:00:11 --- nick: rO| -> rO|bbl 15:00:26 --- quit: rO|bbl ("cya") 15:01:52 Herkamire: what do u think of k ? 15:02:09 gilbertdeb: its sweet. how can i find more info on k? 15:03:51 what's k? 15:05:06 * Suzanne returns 15:05:45 Herkamire: i wasn't actually that interested in how colorforth stores markup information, i was just commenting that i don't really see the point :) 15:06:20 my real question, the one i'm still struggling with, 6 hours or so later, is how to use CREATE ALLOT from within a word :) 15:06:55 Herkamire: http://kx.com/a/k 15:06:56 Suzanne: cool. I'm just saying the point (as I see it) is to simplefy the forth system 15:07:24 Herkamire: *shrug* i suppose, i'm not sure thats a necessary goal, but whatever chuck thinks is fun to do is ok by me 15:07:25 Suzanne: what are you trying to do? I don't get it. you want to compile a definition at compile time while you're in the middle of defining another word? 15:07:42 Suzanne: I definately think chuck is playing around with it :) 15:07:54 Herkamire: i want a word that when executed creates/allocates an array 15:08:15 Suzanne: this simplification also affects such problems very much u have right now 15:08:42 onetom: maybe, but i'm not sure relying on weird color mapping and keyboard layouts is the right way to solve it :P 15:08:45 Suzanne: but u want a noname array? 15:08:53 onetom, no, i want a named array 15:08:58 Suzanne: : create-array create 400 allot ; creat-array my-new-array 15:09:10 herkamire, that doesn't assign it a name tho 15:09:34 do you want every array you create to have the same name???? 15:09:35 Suzanne: i wasnt sure either & dont think im sure @ the moment but its so promising that i think its worth a lot 2 research it 15:09:48 the new name in my example is "my-new-array" 15:10:06 Suzanne: herk is right, i think 15:10:09 yeah 15:10:10 Herkamire: ahh, yes, but 'creat-array my-new-array' will only work from the 'prompt' 15:10:19 it won't work from within a word 15:10:34 Suzanne: why should it work from a word? 15:10:39 it will work when the compiler is in interpret (as apposed to compile) mode 15:10:44 because i need it to :) 15:10:51 Suzanne it doesn't make any sense inside a word 15:10:59 Suzanne: u define a thing by a specific name only once, dont u? 15:11:03 Suzanne: you couldn't possibly need it in a word. 15:11:16 the only time you enter a new word, it's at the prompt 15:11:21 Suzanne: what do u think why do u need it? 15:11:37 Suzanne: explain us ur problem a bit deeper plz 15:11:37 when you execute a definition a bunch of times, you don't want it redefining the same array every time. 15:11:45 you want to pass it a new name like in my example 15:11:53 onetome, because i need to initalise the array, and i don't want to have to type 20+ lines into the interpreter to do it 15:12:24 Suzanne: do you want the arrays to be named? (each having it's own name) 15:12:38 Herkamire: im still not sure what does she exactly want.. r u? 15:12:43 Herkamire: there should be only one array, but other than that, yes, it has to be named 15:13:09 Suzanne: if you only want one array, then you don't need to compile a word that will create it. just create it 15:13:19 Suzanne: could u represent a solution 2 ur problem in some other prg lang? 15:13:26 create my-array 400 allot 15:14:15 Suzanne: in forth you can only define one word (name) at a time. 15:15:04 Herkamire: : 5defs 5 0 do create loop ; ) 15:26:44 --- quit: onetom ("leaving") 15:29:01 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 15:29:08 damn conn 15:29:09 Suzanne: in forth, when asking "how do you ..." you may often get the answer "we don't" 15:29:22 hehe :) 15:30:13 Herkamire: unfortunately, i'm starting to realise that :P 15:31:12 Suzanne: dont b afraid. its not a bad thing at all 15:31:56 Suzanne: it's a bit scary at first I know, but it's the best thing about forth. 15:32:04 there's all these issues that you don't have to solve. 15:32:34 you just walk peacibly on a slightly different direction 15:33:26 forth has plenty of limitations, but they are usually helpful, if they aren't then you remove them (sometimes this requires writing a forth that doesn't have them, but even this isn't that hard) 15:33:32 thats all well and good, but i can't get this array working :/ 15:33:46 I'm in the middle of writing my 2nd forth. 15:34:01 just create the array before the definition. why can't you do that? 15:34:10 don't try to do everything inside definitions 15:34:18 much of the benifit of forth is doing stuff at compile time 15:34:19 Herkamire: i am for now, but i'm not sure it'll be an option in the final code 15:34:26 even doing that, 'erase' isn't doing what it should 15:34:35 I've never heard of erase 15:35:16 erase ( a u -- ) - set contents of addresses a thru a+u to zero 15:35:29 unfortunately, it doesn't :P 15:35:34 well, a+u-1 15:35:43 Suzanne: what forth are you using? 15:35:49 gforth 15:38:14 : my-erase ( a u -- ) 0 do 0 over c! 1 + loop drop ; \ fill u bytes at a with zeros 15:39:22 tbh, its weird 15:39:26 : my-cf-erase b>a for 0 b+! next ; \ this is how it would look in my colorforth :) 15:39:31 if i dump the memory that the array occupies, its 0'ed 15:39:37 if i @ it, it gives me the address 15:39:55 Suzanne: is your code small enough you can paste it here? 15:40:06 Suzanne: yeah, paste it! 15:40:14 well, its on another machine tho 15:41:18 Suzanne: & why is it a problem under macosx? 15:41:32 imean, pasting 15:41:38 * Herkamire notices that my-cf-erase would need to start with a swap to have the same stack comment 15:41:50 onetom, it wouldn't be, if the forth session was on this machine :) 15:42:13 onetom: not ssh, actually two keyboards I think :) 15:42:27 Herkamire: exactly 15:42:40 gforth works on OS X I think 15:42:43 yes it does 15:42:50 as long as you use gforth-itc :) 15:43:06 hold on, i can do something this way... 15:43:17 ah :) 15:43:51 256 CREATE arp-array ALLOT 15:43:51 15:43:51 : init-arp-array ( u -- ) 15:43:51 arp-array 256 cells erase ; 15:44:51 Suzanne: you are erasing 4 times as much as you are ALLOTing 15:45:00 Suzanne: allot requires bytes 15:45:08 size in bytes 15:45:10 you probably mean: CREATE arp-array 256 cells ALLOT 15:45:13 ah 15:46:05 yeah, erase worked that time 15:46:15 automagically... ;) 15:46:36 * Herkamire checks his cf source, and finds that he is using allot [drumrole please...] once, and it's to set the stupid vt to be non-buffered 15:46:41 let me guess, it works backwards from a+u-1 to a, and fails if that cell wasn't allot'ed 15:46:50 Suzanne: could u answer me squeak related questions later? 15:47:00 onetom, maybe, i don't use it that often 15:47:10 Suzanne: say: see erase 15:47:26 oneton: 15:47:26 onetom: it's probably native... 15:47:32 : erase 0 fill ; 15:47:41 see fill --- its x86 15:47:42 see fill returns craploads of binary ;) 15:47:54 oh.. gforth 0.4.x M 15:47:55 onetom, i certainly hope not 15:47:55 ? 15:47:57 I've never seen anything usefull by using see in gforth 15:48:07 onetom, if its x86 code it'd present a major problem :P 15:48:15 Herkamire: i had 15:48:21 [suzanne@g3serv suzanne]$ uname -a 15:48:21 Linux g3serv.crysalis.com 2.4.17 #5 Sat Dec 28 16:46:44 EST 2002 ppc unknown 15:48:40 Herkamire: i even managed 2 write ioport handling via the help of see 15:48:41 Suzanne: you running linux on ppc? 15:48:48 Herkamire: on an old G3, yeah 15:49:06 Suzanne: coool :) I'm running linux on my g4 :) 15:49:07 Herkamire: wo recompiling gforth of course -- coz its not an option under windows 15:49:14 Herkamire: my G4 runs OS X :) 15:49:52 I hear OS X is getting pretty good. 15:50:05 I used the beta version. it was neat 15:50:09 well, jaguar has been 'pretty good' for a year or so 15:50:14 panther should be better yet 15:50:17 I like linux much better now 15:50:21 and Xcode looks about as nice as compiled languages can get :) 15:50:32 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:50:38 xcode? 15:50:44 Xcode == apple's new IDe 15:50:49 with 'in-place' compiling 15:50:59 ie, you can hit 'build' and it'll modify a running executable 15:51:01 yeah, it looks interesting 15:51:16 what language? 15:51:16 Suzanne: that's two different things though, isnt it? fix&replace and build-while-you-code? 15:51:22 Herkamire: C 15:51:25 i believe 15:51:32 and objective c 15:51:34 ian, yeah, i was mainly referring to fix&replace 15:51:42 Suzanne: cool, just wondered 15:51:59 why would you want to modify a running executable? 15:52:02 i know people using it 15:52:11 Herkamire: change values without recompiling 15:52:12 Herkamire: so you don't have to quit/restart to test a bugfix 15:52:27 ian, from what i've been told, its more than just value changes 15:52:33 but will actually modify code blocks too 15:52:33 cool 15:52:38 incase you're developing huge bloated software like Mozilla? 15:52:42 I have a copy for jaguar that i've not yet installed 15:52:47 (in a smalltalk like OO system, thats feasible) 15:52:50 Herkamire: you obviously never debugged a C app... :) 15:53:09 ian_p: I've debugged many 15:53:11 (you know more than me, but, still.. especially on these macs with huge compiletime) 15:53:13 not huge ones though 15:53:24 well, gcc 15:53:29 and I've only done C on mac 15:53:29 Herkamire: Objective-C is pretty good, actually 15:53:37 for the past three years I've been using gcc on a mac 15:53:43 which is what MOST MacOS X apps should be written in :) 15:53:48 Objective-C is WAY better than C 15:53:52 objc's nice 15:54:07 especially cocoa 15:54:31 it's weird to see coherent code behind the functionality of the stuff 15:54:31 i'd say its about as close to dynamic as you could make a C based language, without gutting it completely 15:54:35 coming from windows world 15:54:57 MSVC is singlehandedly responsible from setting me back years in programming education 15:55:02 from=for 15:55:04 heh 15:55:10 seriously 15:55:10 ian, MSVC ? or MFC ? 15:55:14 i'd want to learn C++ so bad 15:55:16 Suzanne: both 15:55:23 MSVC the program, isn't TOO bad 15:55:26 and I would read the Visual C++ manuals I procured somewhere 15:55:27 i've seen worse IDEs, anyway 15:55:29 Suzanne: well ok 15:55:31 ;) 15:55:41 and they instilled such fear and confusion into my heart 15:55:42 don't bother with C++ it's crap 15:55:49 Herkamire: yeah, I learned it after I did ObjC 15:55:51 anybody who studies programming languages will tell you so 15:55:53 Herkamire: a necessary evil sometimes 15:55:58 Suzanne: sadly 15:56:07 Herkamire: for example, even on OS X, you can't write an AudioUnit without using C++ 15:56:25 what's an AudioUnit? 15:56:26 or on windows, if you want to use DirectShow, C++ is pretty much a must 15:56:41 Herkamire: OS X's audio processing/virtual-instrument plugin API 15:56:50 one of the major parts of OS X that isn't Objective-C based 15:56:55 I won't program for windoze unless you pay me at least tripple my normal salery 15:57:00 (certain driver classes also require C++) 15:57:19 that's weird 15:57:26 Herkamire: yeah, it is, tbh 15:57:42 but then, Apple/NeXT weren't really involved with the AU standard as much as Emagic 15:57:53 and perhaps Emagic were/are C++ coders 15:58:14 * Herkamire is discusted with the whole thing, and writing his own OS 15:58:27 it's more than half done too 15:58:28 or perhaps the overhead of messaging is just too high on audio processing ? 15:58:36 i don't know, there is probably a 'good' reason somewhere 15:58:42 no 15:58:49 there's nothing you can do with C++ that you can't do in C 15:59:02 Suzanne: w/ Objective-C you can bypass messaging pretty easily. 15:59:04 C++ does not have a speed advantage over C 15:59:15 Herkamire: i know, but if you're doing a OO framework for Audio processing, C++ is a logical choice, along with Objective-C 15:59:27 no it's not 15:59:29 i.e. cache a method to call, and keep calling that. 15:59:34 C++ dosn't do OO very well 15:59:35 if the Objective-C messaging overhead is too high for handling thousands upon thousands of packets per second, then C++ would be the only choice, most likely 15:59:49 C++ is kindof a mess. 16:00:02 a7r, in theory, yes, but then you're basically implementing a vtable anyway :) 16:00:05 well, i think it's faster than ObjC, even a cached message is slower 16:00:15 but i guses its if you need hotspots that are OO? 16:00:24 Suzanne: no, you do a lookup of the method you need to call once, and call the reference to that method.. it's the inverse of a vtable. 16:00:32 and, you _can_ provide a OO API in C 16:00:32 a7r, if you're going to cache selectors in Objective-C, you're effectively throwing away half of the beauty of the language, and might as well just use C++ which most developers are familiar with anyway 16:00:46 but as i said, there is probably a 'good' reason somewhere, i don't know it, someone at apple or emagic probably does 16:00:53 with everything but destructors. 16:00:58 Suzanne: you only need to cache the methods you're sending messages to often. 16:01:23 Suzanne: it does cache messages internally, though... 16:01:29 a7r, then you're talking about dynamic caching and profiling, and introducing another overhead, albeit a smaller one than messaging 16:01:35 C++ did not become popular because of "good reasons" 16:02:06 a7r, anyway, don't beat me up about it, i didn't make AU use C++ :) 16:02:19 Suzanne: at some point you have to decide what method you're calling.. ;) 16:02:23 Suzanne++ 16:02:29 i would have tried Objective-C first personally, and then tried to solve any performance bottlenecks, but for some reason Apple/Emagic chose C++ for that API 16:02:32 i mean, uh, 1+ 16:02:34 I dare say that _everybody_ who thinks C++ would be a good language to use has never used a good OO language (and perhaps not a good language at all) 16:02:42 Suzanne: you an AU developer? 16:02:51 ian, i've tinkered a little 16:02:58 not really gotten far, mostly due to lack of time 16:03:15 i'd think C++ is faster 16:03:24 Suzanne: cool, I just use AU plugins.. :) 16:03:31 i should really convert the multi-band compressor i was writing in VST2 to AU sometime, but there isn't enough time in the day :P 16:03:38 Herkamire: what is your OO favourite? 16:03:57 <-- logic 6 user 16:04:00 don't like OO much 16:04:04 ian, i'm still on 5.5.1 16:04:07 python comes to mind 16:04:10 6 is great 16:04:15 freezing! 16:04:22 ian, it might well be, i'm broke however :P 16:04:24 Herkamire: and smalltalk ;) 16:04:28 :) 16:04:32 all you really need is 4 :) 16:04:35 Herkamire: thats the best ive seen so far 16:04:49 onetom: for me, the order is Smalltalk (if performance isn't an issue), Objective-C, Python, Xlisp, C++ 16:04:58 onetom: I haven't used smalltalk enough to decide if I like it. I like what I know about it. 16:05:07 Xlisp is nice 16:05:07 i like java over C++ 16:05:16 OO wise anyway 16:05:22 Suzanne: wasn't xlisp the basis of xlispstat? 16:05:31 but, there are a couple of lisp variants called 'xlisp', and i'm not sure which is which, or if the one i liked is even updated anymore :) 16:05:37 gilbertdeb: see last comment :) 16:05:47 there are, at least, 3 different lisp variants called xlisp today 16:05:57 --- quit: wossname ("Mike_L is a filthy HHGTG hater") 16:06:02 maybe it's just because I have a ppc, but I've never run a java program that ran nicely 16:06:08 I've used many different JVM 16:06:11 the one i used to use, and loved, was lisp with smalltalk-like OO 16:06:17 hmmm. i know xlisp is supposed to have OO. 16:06:35 ie, you defined 'messages' that a lisp object would receive, and then sent messages to it in the form of: object msg: blah with: blah 16:07:06 or rather (object msg: blah with: blah ... ) :) 16:07:15 Suzanne: you use some relatively untraditional languages! 16:07:15 I like that python just supports OO as a syntax 16:07:22 which is all it is really 16:07:23 gilbertdeb: i love to tinker :) 16:07:26 aside objective c/++ and python. 16:07:55 I'd like smalltalk a lot better if squeak would be nice to me :) 16:08:07 Suzanne: what is Xlisp? lisp w X11 interface? 16:08:15 gilbertdeb: me too! 16:08:15 but usually when I ask a question in #squeak I'm either told to read the blue book or they simply leave. 16:08:17 (just a dumb guess :) 16:08:26 the squeak GUI is CRAP 16:08:41 onetom: no, its lisp with smalltalk-like OO 16:08:44 gilbertdeb: which 1 is the blue book? url? 16:08:51 Herkamire: it very well might be, it consists of the self gui and the old MVC gui. 16:08:59 Herkamire: itym 'The Smalltalk/V GUI is crap, why did Squeak clone it?' :) 16:09:03 but I don't think the self gui is very well documented. 16:09:09 Herkamire: heh... did you only try Swing programs? 16:09:21 onetom: lemme see if I can find it. 16:09:21 Suzanne: ugh.. its a bit hard 4 me 2 imagine an OO lisp... but nevermind. maybe later :) 16:09:36 bluebook is [st+book] _Smalltalk-80: The Language and Its Implementation_ at http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/bluebook/ 16:10:08 onetom: its not too hard, really 16:10:28 onetom: imagine you take lisp, and add a datatype that is a 'class' and is represented by # followed by the address in hex 16:10:35 I don't know if it was swing or what. I ran squeak and it had this whole multiple desktop thing. I played with just about all the programs I could find 16:10:39 everything was slow 16:10:47 the freaking scrollbars were terrible 16:10:49 onetom, then imagine you graft a smalltalk-like message system onto it, so that #OBJECTS can be sent messages :) 16:11:11 the editable text field (which they used for EVERYTHING including the web browser) didn't scroll right 16:11:17 yeah objects can be sent messages, the trick is to find out which objects respond to which messages. 16:12:30 Suzanne: what do you tend to use xlisp for? 16:13:01 gilbertdeb: i haven't used it in years 16:13:15 gilbertdeb: i used it when i was at uni, for learning OO 16:13:22 the author of xlispstat works on R now I think. 16:13:24 (before i started looking at smalltalk) 16:14:03 I hear the Common Lisp Object System is superior to most others outthere ... but I haven't touched oo per/se. 16:14:13 clisp is ok 16:14:18 but its OO is a bit kludgy 16:14:20 gilbertdeb: wow. its a nice book 16:14:29 --- quit: jamc (".. If I had heart failure right now, I couldn't be a more fortunate man!!") 16:14:31 onetom: it is THE smalltalk book. 16:14:32 gilbertdeb: but where r the other chapters? 16:14:43 gilbertdeb: aint they important? 16:14:59 gilbertdeb: i swear i gonna learn it asap :) 16:15:01 onetom: this is the part of the book that contains all the info for writing your own smalltalk. 16:15:41 so the innards of smalltalk are contained in this part. 16:16:01 the other parts are what introduce you to the language and the interface and things like that. 16:16:12 aham 16:16:34 thx a lot 16:16:40 no problema. 16:16:43 :) 16:16:55 u helped me a lot again, u know. 16:17:00 did I know? 16:17:01 hey, if you want to try ANOTHER really annoying OO 'GUI, Language and Environment all in one' try Oberon :) 16:17:06 its almost as annoying as Smalltalk/V :P 16:17:12 Suzanne: you use oberon? 16:17:18 gilbertdeb: i looked at it, once 16:17:36 I was talking to kc5tja about it the other day. he rather likes it. 16:17:56 Suzanne: whats wrong w the squeak gui? what gui can b considered a good 1 then? 16:18:11 Suzanne: I think i might get to try it this week since I'm reading algorithms + data structures = programs at the moment. 16:18:20 it isn't a bad book at all, I don't know why people hated pascal so much. 16:18:31 onetom, the thing that annoys me, is the 'select + execute' paradigm 16:18:53 onetom, almost all of the 'GUI, Language, environment' systems rely on it, and its just irritating 16:18:59 onetom: the original smalltalk gui was relatively simple, compared to the squeak gui which uses the Self language's gui. 16:19:10 onetom, i expect code to be executed when i specify the eol delimiter + hit return :) 16:19:29 Suzanne: well.. 16:19:35 u r a st coder 16:19:48 why havent u implemented such an interface yet? 16:19:53 so Suzanne which other languages have you dabled in? 16:19:55 onetom, because i don't have to :) 16:20:02 lolll 16:20:04 onetom: it exists, and is called 'GNU Smalltalk' these days 16:20:13 me c 16:20:25 but it doesnt have a gui does it? 16:20:28 gilbertdeb: you want me to sit here all day listing every language i've taken a look at ? :) 16:20:33 onetom, no :) 16:20:40 Suzanne: sure why not :D 16:20:43 onetom, and thats one plus in its benefit :P 16:20:48 and no version management 16:20:50 it should bring back fond memories shouldn't it? 16:21:02 gilbertdeb: it could take a while :P 16:21:27 you can skip the cobol references. and also anything to do with pl/1 or RPGn. 16:21:29 :) 16:21:29 * onetom is condemed -nowdays- 2 write guis :( 16:21:44 onetom: how is that? 16:21:46 gilbertdeb: assemblers i've used: 6502, 6802, 6805, 6809, 6811, Z80, 68000, MIPS, SPARC, PPC, x86, TI C30 DSP, AVR, PIC, MACRO32 16:21:53 * onetom but he hasnt found any good env 4 it 16:22:21 o - o ... Suzanne is an ubergeek :) 16:22:32 ( could also count forth, if you include the harris forth chips i wrote a couple of lines on, about 10 years ago :) 16:22:34 let's hear it for not havin GUIs :) 16:23:22 Herkamire: eerr...could u rephrase it? 16:23:27 just so i know, who else has a clue what MACRO32 is ? :) 16:23:45 I don't. 16:23:53 me neither 16:23:57 you wrote code for the forth chip?? 16:24:29 gilbertdeb: how fortunate bastard she is ;) 16:24:29 gilbertdeb: i wrote code that ran on one, once, it wasn't anything professional or anything, just the 'forth guru' i occasionally worked alongside at uni, had one in his office 16:24:53 did you write a lot for the MIPS? 16:25:08 ok, so noone knows MACRO32, it IS obscure, i'll grant you, MACRO32 == the assembler of the VAX cpus :) 16:25:19 gilbertdeb: a couple of thousand lines 16:25:25 what? 16:25:28 for a game??? 16:25:32 gilbertdeb: and then rm -R'ed the whole bunch when i gave up on the stuff :) 16:25:33 ajaj.. vax is a nightmare 16:25:38 no, this was for an embedded project 16:25:48 Suzanne: not many people have VAX hardware at all. 16:25:49 i have touched Playstation code, but only in C/C++ 16:26:00 so what did you write the MIPS code for? 16:26:04 also the SPARC code? 16:26:20 gilbertdeb: i was working on a personal project that was going to use a VR4300 for processing audio 16:26:41 gilbertdeb: i wrote a couple of thousand lines of asm before deciding i couldn't be bothered trying to find a bus controller for the VR series anymore :) 16:26:51 Riiight! 16:27:01 hehehe thats quite a bit far to go isn't it? 16:27:17 Suzanne: are you Elizabeth Rather in disguise? 16:27:20 the SPARC code was stuff at uni, i was working on some video processing software as my course project, and rewrote some of the C into asm to try and speed things up (this was network video chat on a Sparcstation 2! ;) 16:27:26 gilbert, nope 16:28:11 gilbert, the thing is, even if i decide i'm not gonna use some code, i consider the act of writing it to be educational, and so its not entirely a right-off when i dump the code/project 16:28:21 ah okay. 16:28:36 what course were you undertaking that required writing so much OBSCURE code? 16:28:36 for example... 16:28:53 my initial foray into smalltalk resulted by trying to find a more dynamic language for the MUD i was writing/running at uni 16:29:25 i wrote a functional MUD on mst before deciding that smalltalk was (at the time) just too slow to run a MUD, so gave up on it 16:29:26 did you ever try APL by the way? 16:29:33 nope, never tried APL 16:29:52 any collection-oritented languages at all? 16:29:54 i think my most obscure non-asm language is probably CECIL :) 16:30:15 gilbert, depends on what you define as a collection-orientated language, i guess 16:30:48 and 'CECIL' is two things, obscure, and a give-away to where i grew up :) 16:30:54 apl, setl, k, j, fish, withGlee etc. 16:30:59 since it is NOT a globally known language :) 16:31:14 washington? 16:31:22 gilbert, no, wrong country :) 16:31:35 gilbert, CECIL == a language created by the UK government for the purpose of teaching programming 16:31:44 sort of a nationally funded Pascal, only far far more crap :) 16:31:51 hehehe. 16:32:14 iirc, and i might not, it was sort of like BASIC, with RPN 16:32:23 my collegues usually stare @ me w a questioning face & start 2 laugh soon when i start talkin about programming languages/philosophy 16:32:39 no i have a fainth idea why do they act so ;) 16:32:46 s/no/now 16:32:46 if i DO remember right, and it was RPN based, that would put my first RPN exposure at age 10 16:33:09 all the references to cecil i see point to the university of washington. 16:33:33 complete different 'cecil' 16:34:42 ahh 16:34:45 thats because its spelt CESIL 16:34:59 'Computer Education In Schools Instruction Language' 16:35:18 15 keywords :) 16:35:41 CESIL: ... The guiding principle was dumb-it-down. 16:35:53 aha 16:35:59 an Example of CESIL: 16:36:05 LOAD 0 16:36:10 LOOP STORE TOTAL 16:36:12 IN 16:36:16 JINEX 16:36:19 JINEG, even 16:36:23 and so on 16:36:39 it wasn't RPN tho 16:36:55 oh dear god, some fool has written 'Visual Cesil' 16:37:12 hahaha. 16:38:47 Suzanne: maybe it was some teacher's pet somewhere. 16:39:34 gilbert, no, it was developed by ICL at the request of the british government, iirc 16:39:40 ICL? 16:39:43 they're dead now. 16:39:47 yeah, now they are 16:39:50 they weren't then :) 16:40:00 My first machine was an Amstrad. 16:40:03 i'm talking about like 1980 here :) 16:40:16 pc5286 with counterpoint. 16:40:22 * Suzanne shudders 16:40:26 :) 16:40:44 it took harvargraphics 3.0 five minutes to load up on that. 16:40:54 my dream then was to get a super duper 486 :D 16:40:58 don't tell me you had one of those wonderful WD hard drives that amstrad put in the pc5* series, that 5 years later the glue turned to liquid and ruined the disk surfaces ? :) 16:41:16 hehehe. NO it never lasted that long. 16:41:28 i suspect, that is luck :) 16:41:53 my neighbour at uni, had a pc1512, he would yell at it day and night :) 16:42:01 he threw it out of the window one day 16:42:04 heheh. 16:42:05 (3 floors up) 16:42:30 I killed mine accidentally. I plugged in an atari joystick with wires and pins and the poor thing shorted. 16:42:37 heh 16:42:49 gilbert, reminds me of a 'story' about a EE friend 16:43:00 this is someone on an EE degree course, bear that in mind... 16:43:05 his P90's PSU died 16:43:23 so he found the Vcc pins on the pentium, and wired 240V AC to them :P 16:43:37 hehehe 16:44:21 it wouldn't be so bad, but he was on the *2nd* year of the degree at the time 16:44:30 hahaha. 16:44:52 I wonder if he wondered why it was smoking at such a young age! 16:45:04 it didn't so much smoke 16:45:11 as melt :P 16:46:30 how did you get a VAX? 16:46:33 was it running vms? 16:46:51 i don't HAVE a VAX, i just worked with them a bit :) 16:47:05 i wish i had a VAX, really, a nice 8650 cluster would be nice :) 16:47:17 ah. 16:47:29 what was the instruction set based on? 16:47:33 at the first uni i attended, they had several VAX for the EE department, a couple of 11/76s, a couple of 11/760s, and 2 8650s 16:47:34 did they have a custom chip for it? 16:47:42 it was 'The VAX processor' 16:47:53 its instruction set was typical early 80s CISC - HUGE 16:48:14 it had ASCIN and ASCIZ instructions, along with 2-op and 3-op versions of every instruction :) 16:48:31 anyway, that was my first exposure to VAXen as a user 16:48:52 when i worked at ICI during work placement, i admin'ed their cluster of about 30+ VAXen for 3 months 16:49:11 running vms or ultrix? 16:49:19 mostly, 8650s in the cluster, with a handful of 11/ series and a dozen or so uVax IIs 16:49:22 all running VMS at ICI 16:49:30 at uni, 2 of the machines were running ultrix 16:49:42 do you prefer vms to unix? 16:49:52 iirc, all of the machines in the cluster were VMS 5.1 or VMS 5.5 16:49:59 in some ways, yes 16:50:09 heh? it has TECO as a text editor! 16:50:19 the key there, is *a* :) 16:50:24 :) 16:50:31 i always used EDIT/LSE or EDIT/EDT 16:50:39 i think i used EDIT/TECO maybe twice 16:50:44 and that was out of sheer boredom 16:51:55 hrm. 16:52:11 what was nice about vms that you missed in unix? 16:52:20 ACLs mostly :) 16:52:48 but there are a lot of things like the control over processes, the rich APIs, etc 16:53:14 not to mention the wonderful state based macros in CLI 16:53:14 ACLs? what is that? 16:53:22 ACL = access control lists 16:53:34 basically, you can grant/refuse permissions on a file on a per-user/per-group way 16:53:43 and you can chain together as many ACL rules as you want on a single file 16:54:47 oh okay. 16:55:08 next you're probably going to ask about the state based macros in CLI :) 16:55:23 you could define keyboard macros for the shell (CLI) ... 16:55:36 but, it worked somewhat like emacs, with an arbitary number of modifiers 16:56:21 bah. electric storm 16:56:22 brb 16:56:23 so, you could, for example, define all the keys on the keypad to do some command, then define PF1 to switch state to 'silver' and redefine all of the keypad in 'silver' modified state, then define silver's PF1 to go to 'gold' and redefine every key again 17:05:45 is there more documentation for k somewhere? I still don't get it 17:19:25 k ? 17:21:17 k 17:21:32 http://www.kx.com/a/k/ 17:25:54 holy shit 17:37:28 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:39:06 terse eh? 17:49:10 --- quit: rk ("Client Exiting") 17:52:17 a bit 17:52:45 is there any way to parse a string on the stack as forth ? 17:54:50 --- join: rk (~rk@ca-cmrilo-docsis-cmtsj-b-36.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 17:59:35 Suzanne: evaluate 18:01:01 thanks 18:03:44 --- join: Forther (~forthman@co-trinidad1a-42.clspco.adelphia.net) joined #forth 18:04:04 looking for Speuler 18:04:07 anyone here? 18:04:22 Found the page of http://www.forthfreak.de/ 18:04:28 he said he would be hanging out here 18:04:42 anyone know how ot get a hold of him... Looking for someone to have forth talk with. 18:06:15 clog Fractal gilbertdeb Herkamire ian_p onetom ooo rk skylan Suzanne TreyB anyone here? 18:06:38 yeah, but its not much good asking me :) 18:06:47 LOL 18:06:48 hi 18:07:15 Been porting 15+ versions of Forth to BeOS for the past few days, most went well. 18:07:25 I just found the bashforth and think that it is a hoot! 18:07:28 Slow, but fun. 18:07:44 Forther: you know, if i was playing anti-forth advocate, that line is just RIPE for a comment :P 18:08:09 like, oh 'porting a obsolete language to an obsolete OS, how quaint' or something :P 18:08:15 hehehehe 18:08:21 Well, the OS isn't obsolete. 18:08:25 It is more just abandoned. 18:08:30 BeOS is a hoot! 18:08:35 Does all I need and want it to do all the time. 18:08:51 image editing, webhosting, mail, page generation, IRC , so forth. 18:09:13 depends on what you need, i suppose, but thats true of any OS 18:09:18 Yes. 18:09:20 exactly. 18:09:26 abandoned for sure, obsolete, hardly. 18:09:38 the boneheads left using it (including me) are a desperate bunch of morons. 18:09:40 i know, i was just saying, it was wide open for a dig :) 18:09:43 LOL 18:09:45 yes it was. 18:09:47 thank you. 18:09:48 dig away. 18:09:54 anyway, are you really a chick? 18:10:03 last time i checked, yes 18:10:11 cause if you are, that is a great thing, not many left in the FORTH community. 18:10:14 Elizabeth aside. 18:10:15 LOL 18:10:30 the alternative answer is, no, i just love being treated like dirt on most freenode channels :P 18:10:49 Good, cause if you like I can dig you a hole and treat you like dirt, but you have to ask nicely. 18:11:16 Are most of the folks here M$haft users? 18:11:23 lol, i get enough from people that assume that somehow being female, you couldn't write a line of code if your life depended on it 18:11:30 Oh, no. 18:11:35 I would never assume you can't write code. 18:11:44 there are plenty that do, tho :P 18:12:01 I taught CS a bit in college as a tutor, and I definitely feel women are better thinkers when it comes to details than men, and that includes the process of writing coe. 18:12:08 havent seen much around lately, but Speuler does come here 18:12:17 However I dont' believe most women think in the bigger architecture way that men can, just must experience. 18:12:21 im not much of a forther, sorry 18:12:26 ian_p, thanks! 18:12:35 yupyup 18:12:36 I'll hang out as much as I can and see if Speuler comes around. 18:12:38 you're in the rigt place 18:12:43 afaik 18:12:44 ;) 18:13:02 must = my 18:13:14 well, you're certainly more likely to get forth chat here than somewhere like, oh, #c :) 18:13:15 Hey, are most of you European? 18:13:27 forther, originallly, yes, i am, i live in the US tho 18:13:32 Suzanne, #c :) I love C, definitely. 18:13:49 Suzanne, welcome to the US then :) 18:13:58 US sucks donkey, but you know we are destined to ruin the world. 18:13:59 I'm an american... 18:14:00 forther, you're about 7 years too late :P 18:14:03 or is that rule. LOL 18:14:14 Suzanne, 7 years to late for what? 18:14:20 welcoming me to the US :P 18:14:21 FORTH? 18:14:23 LOL 18:14:23 oh 18:14:30 well, welcome 7+ years ago then baby! 18:14:37 where are you from originally? 18:14:41 Poland, Russia? 18:14:41 UK 18:14:47 Hey, right on. 18:14:55 island of the great empire. 18:15:01 thats united kingdom, not ukraine (given the direction your guesses were heading :) 18:15:01 HOw is Blair poking at your sides these days? 18:15:12 forther, wouldn't know, been here for 7 years, remember :) 18:15:14 Should he step aside? 18:15:29 Suzanne, you mean you don't follow UK politics? 18:15:34 only vaguely 18:15:40 Suzanne are you a US citizen now? 18:15:51 can you say the pledge and the words to the national anthem? LOL 18:15:59 (like that is some type of real test, NOT!) 18:16:01 tbh, Maggie was awful, Major was only a bit better, so i dunno, blair might not be great, but then, neither were any recent alternatives 18:16:11 and Hauge seems like a bit of a :) 18:16:14 I hear the girls like him. 18:16:25 or is it Haige? *shrug* 18:16:30 Haige. 18:16:38 who knows. 18:16:47 anyone else here mess around with bashforth? 18:16:55 I seems to work, at least basically. 18:17:00 3 4 + . -> 7 :) 18:17:02 forther, well, the thing about blair... 18:17:08 is that he reminds me of my uncle, who is a slimeball 18:17:16 so i don't think my opinions are very unbiased 18:17:22 Suzanne, blair is an idiot lead by an idiot lead by oil. 18:17:23 :) 18:17:45 NOw, if they only knew FORTH 18:17:56 They could really screw peoples minds up with RPN/stack based logic. 18:17:59 (given my uncle has swindled my family out of our eventual inheritance...) 18:18:04 oh 18:18:05 that blows! 18:18:10 well, welcome to the poor world. 18:18:23 I was wondering, is there much demand for FORTH programmers these days, embedded stuff particularly? 18:18:45 I have been talking to folks about microcode programmers for drive manufactures, and FORTH came up as a bit of a topic too (being low level and all)... 18:18:46 forther, i imagine its like any 'minority' language 18:18:58 Suzanne, do you program FORTH? 18:19:03 ie, the overall level of forth demand isn't high, but the jobs there are, aren't being filled in a rush 18:19:05 why the heck does anyone end up on IRC anyway. 18:19:19 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 18:19:22 So, then there is some demand for FORTH pgorammers. 18:19:29 forther, there is bound to be SOME 18:19:38 I'm just considering coming back into programming and feel that I want to do ST, FORTH or some microcoding. 18:19:47 forther, but then, there is demand for COBOL programmers still 18:19:56 I'm not sure which yet, but I feel I have to write a simple FORTH interpreter first to get to feel good about doing FORTH stuff. 18:20:09 Yes, that is true, and SNOBOL, and OOCOBOL, and ObjC, and ST and more. 18:20:40 :) Have thought about going back ot ObjC and OSX. Been doing that for 13 years since NeXTSTep, feel that may be a market to look at now that OSX is finally at 10.3 and fairly stable. 18:20:42 re 18:20:46 onetom hello 18:20:52 nah 18:20:57 finally 18:20:59 forther, Objective-C is nice :) 18:21:04 Yes, ObjC is nice. 18:21:06 forther, oh, and 10.3 isn't here QUITE yet :) 18:21:10 another few months 18:21:13 Yes, but I have it. 18:21:15 :) 18:21:19 Dev release. 18:21:23 * Suzanne nods 18:21:28 since WWDC 18:21:30 i let my ADC membership lapse, sadly 18:21:32 kinda NDA crap. 18:21:52 Well, just get it back, 250 I think a year, last year I sold all my 'student' stuff for like 450 on eBay :) 18:22:06 Love eBay, well kinda. 18:22:08 its more like $600 i think now 18:22:14 For student? 18:22:15 Nah. 18:22:16 Really. 18:22:19 well, i'm not a student 18:22:20 damn 18:22:24 LOL 18:22:28 Yes, 250 for student I believe. 18:22:29 was 2 years ago. 18:22:36 I'm not a student either. 18:22:40 Well, not officially. 18:22:40 back 18:22:42 But I am on in life. 18:22:46 gilbertdeb, welcome back 18:22:52 (hehehehe, from where I have no idea) 18:22:53 Suzanne: do you recommend objective C over c++? 18:22:58 gilbertdeb: definitely 18:23:01 Thanks forther. 18:23:08 from an electric storm :) 18:23:11 gilbertdeb: without any doubt, hesitation or reservations :) 18:23:16 I have been doing ObjC for 13+ years, it is WAY better than C++ 18:23:27 Not even comparing. 18:23:31 Suzanne: I have the first edition of the Objective C book by whatshisname. 18:23:41 is it any book? 18:23:41 C++ is difficult at best, ObjC is the most smooth sailing language I have used. 18:23:43 * onetom managed 2 do some fast gfx programming under linux finally (w the help of directfb&lite) 18:23:44 Cox 18:23:47 is it any *good. 18:23:49 I do also 18:23:50 yes by Cox. 18:23:52 gilbert, if you learn ObjC tho, just don't get into any arguements with shady belgians :P 18:23:54 Mine is signed. 18:23:58 I have met him a few times. 18:24:00 Brad is cool. 18:24:08 Hardback, I think I have 3 copies. 18:24:09 LOL 18:24:15 It is a bible of how to do objects with C 18:24:15 Yes, it is a hardback. 18:24:22 The second edition is paperback 18:24:27 amazing book 18:24:27 Forther: but I hear the second edition co-authored is better. 18:24:37 should be required reading in all CS. 18:24:43 Yes, it was for the average reader. 18:24:51 I picked up the objective C book randomly some time ago. 18:24:57 The first edition is better cause you get a feeling of knowing what brad is talking about. 18:25:04 Forther: so which do you recommend the first or the second? 18:25:05 gilbertdeb, good for you, smart pickup. 18:25:08 okay. 18:25:09 both 18:25:14 read the first 18:25:25 it is the bible on OO and traditional language hybriding. 18:25:36 Forther: I also picked up in the same swoop a pdp-8 asm manual and algorithms + data structures = programs. 18:25:40 Cox was not the first, but he was clearly the person pushing via OOPSLA at the time the means to do it. 18:25:52 I have the algo + data = programs, two copies. 18:26:01 basically, any used bookstore I go to, the older the computer books, the more likely I am to pick buy it no questions asked :D 18:26:03 Love it, the first 'real' CS book I got some 20+ years ago. 18:26:09 Me too! 18:26:15 I bought 250 books the other day for 45 bucks. 18:26:20 all brand new, all classics. 18:26:21 wow! 18:26:25 from where??? 18:26:28 Yep, tech book store in CO 18:26:37 guy was a techie from the hard drive sector in Longmont CO 18:26:41 I'm jealous! 18:26:54 He had his own store cause he became a gazillionaire in that sector, retired and just bought books and sold them. 18:26:57 Was his dream. 18:27:19 He was blowing a bunch of duplicates out. Me and friend were going to an auction nearby, I saw it at a glance, and demanded he stop. we were there for almost 1 hour. 18:27:25 Forther: a lot of used book store owners look at me weirdly when I ask if they have computer books from the 60's, 70's or early '80s :D 18:27:37 I ask them for the oldest crap they have. 18:27:38 :) 18:27:43 hehehe. 18:27:51 I own the domains www.smalltalkhistory.com|net|org 18:27:52 :) 18:28:01 more 'stuff' less 'dot com is gonna revolutionize the world'. 18:28:05 oh really? 18:28:12 spent some of 2000 DEc at Instantiations doing some research, and then at Cincom also. 18:28:18 yes really. 18:28:23 until this dec. 18:28:23 :) 18:28:26 I may let them go. 18:28:31 I have not done with them what I want. 18:28:32 onetom was asking about the Blue Book. 18:28:39 I have 4 copies of it :) 18:28:44 3 are mint. 18:28:44 on ebay? 18:28:51 the Blue blue book or the Blue purple book? 18:29:00 got 2 from big wigs in the OO community. 18:29:00 I have complete sets. 18:29:04 blue, purple, red and green. 18:29:12 true, i asked 18:29:14 wow! 18:29:29 I used to teach OO via Squeak and ST/80 18:29:33 I really love ST/80 18:29:36 onetom there you go, he knows all there is to know about the blue books :D 18:29:39 ST-80 whatever you want to name it. 18:29:44 via Squeak?? 18:29:48 www.squeak.org 18:29:54 Alan's thing 18:29:55 yeah we know squeak. 18:30:03 or we know *of* squeak. 18:30:06 :) 18:30:10 ya, then you know of self. 18:30:15 yea :( 18:30:20 Morphics came from self. 18:30:29 I have the video from the designers of self here somewhere. 18:30:34 from the late 90s. 18:30:36 yeah I know. and that has obfuscated stuff WAY much more than it ought to. 18:30:52 really cool, they show how property based system like self can be used to develop ST, so the did it, right in front of ya. 18:31:01 wow. 18:31:13 Ya, it is really neato! 18:31:14 I should take another look at self. 18:31:26 self is buried. :( 18:31:36 Forther: is it on tape or in avi? 18:31:39 they still have binaries for the solaris. 18:31:40 self was one of the coolest systems I had seen in 10+ years at the time, I fell in love with it immediately in 1993 18:31:49 onetom, it is VHS 18:31:55 I should do a avi conversion and put it out. 18:31:56 damnit :) 18:31:59 It is FREE. 18:32:03 Forther: have you played with plan9 at all? 18:32:06 I dont' even have to ask to republish it. 18:32:11 u should! biiigtime ;) 18:32:16 I looked at plan9 a LONG time ago, kinda forgot about it. 18:32:23 oh okay. 18:32:26 I have been in contact wiht some NeXT oldies about Plan9 on black hardware. 18:32:37 I first looked at Plan9 in like 1990 or 1991 18:32:44 Forther: 3questions: 18:32:44 it was very new then. 18:32:46 When it first came out in publication format, meaning tech notes. 18:32:55 1, how can i navigate in the window stack? (i have hungarian kbd layout, so \ doesnt work) 18:33:01 Yes, it was 9 months old when I looked at the tech specs as I recall. 18:33:06 2, how can i realize a mouse-over focus policy 18:33:15 3, how can i make kbd associations in general 18:33:17 in squeak 18:33:36 in Morphic? 18:33:39 or MVC? 18:33:40 yup 18:33:47 don't ask me, I didn't teach morphic :) 18:33:52 hahaha. 18:33:55 eh :) 18:33:55 I taught OO using squeak. 18:33:56 LOL 18:33:58 lol, poor onetom 18:34:04 onetom: ask about MVC 18:34:06 Suzanne: exactly :) 18:34:08 everyone he asks only uses squeak for 'pure' smalltalk :P 18:34:11 gilbertdeb: lol 18:34:14 yes. 18:34:22 Please, I'm not here to be tested LOL 18:34:33 Forther: hmmm... khm.. aaand how do u do those in MVC? ;) 18:34:34 I taught straight OO, using squeak. 18:34:41 LOL, onetom hehehehe 18:34:45 GUI is not my thing. 18:34:47 sorry. 18:34:57 want to know about right and wrong ways to think about OO, we can talk. 18:34:57 LOL 18:35:26 Forther: the gui portion is the more difficult part of smalltalk to play with. 18:35:35 even though they say it is 'so easy' and straight forward. 18:35:44 I know what is going on here, I had better run and hide. 18:35:44 (ducks and weaves the punches) 18:35:44 --- part: onetom left #forth 18:35:44 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 18:35:44 ;) 18:35:49 gilbertdeb, that is why I ddin't mess around with it. 18:35:54 gilbert, it probably is, compared to other GUI APIs 18:36:05 onetom: the other parts of the blue book that are not online contain explanations for working with the gui. 18:36:08 BTW, to use MVC with the GUI tools as I hear were much harder, morphic cleaned a lot of things up. 18:36:17 gilbert, i mean, compared to some code-mess like, oh, say, MFC :P 18:36:26 Much harder you say? Morphic is TEDIOUS. 18:36:30 ah. 18:36:33 I hear MFC is a bitch, I have never messed with M$haft stuff. 18:36:33 gilbertdeb: lol grrrrr 18:36:46 forther, OWL was far more logical 18:36:55 forther, of course, borland brought everything upon themselves 18:36:57 I'm not familiar with OWL. 18:36:58 OWL and TVision. 18:37:07 what is it? 18:37:07 owl came from borland 18:37:10 oh 18:37:14 me no borland person. 18:37:18 OWL = Object Windows Library(ies?) 18:37:20 No Pascal in 18+ years :) 18:37:27 it was a far more logical C++ API for windowing 18:37:28 No Windows EVER. 18:37:36 Forther: so what do you use now? 18:37:40 Borland == First Pascal for Windows? 18:37:44 but borland practically abandoned everything they did 18:37:56 Forther: i think so. but there was MS-Pascal as well. 18:37:56 gilbertdeb, beos, and mostly to get stuff done, and then scripting languages mostly now. 18:37:59 forther, OWL was part of Borland C++ / Turbo C++ for Windows 18:38:07 Forther: so you're in Beos atm? 18:38:09 * onetom also loved tvision 18:38:13 Oh, so it was a cross language API? 18:38:21 forther, OWL? no, not really 18:38:21 YEs, I'm BEOS 100% on 6-8 machines. 18:38:23 LOL 18:38:28 wow. 18:38:30 Ok, I have one windows machine, technical issue. 18:38:34 hehehe. 18:38:39 ive learnt oo & windowing through tvision then delphi 18:38:42 Forther: but why beos? 18:38:43 BeOS does everything I need, it took a while to get there, but I got it done. 18:38:50 gilbertdeb, good question. 18:38:54 Solitude mostly. 18:38:56 It is FAST. 18:39:06 I has recent tools, and most UNIX stuff will compile/build. 18:39:06 onetom, did you get the 'what would it take?' questionaire from borland recently ? 18:39:08 can i burn an iso and try it? 18:39:16 There was a TON of stuff done on it in the 2 year window it saw light. 18:39:16 as in 'what would it take to get you to buy our products again' 18:39:22 gilbertdeb, you can get it FREE. 18:39:33 Forther: and i can install it and stuff? 18:39:43 I never touched borland stuff, it always felt too 'smooth' for me, like I was being stroked or something. 18:39:47 gilbertdeb, yes. 18:39:49 www.bebits.com 18:39:56 you can see the archives for the apps that were built. 18:40:01 www.bezip.de also 18:40:07 the beos community is LONG dead. 18:40:07 Suzanne: no, coz that postbox what received borland mail got full 4 some months 18:40:22 onetom, ah, one of the options was something like 'stop making your products suck!' 18:40:25 so dont expect much from people. 18:40:43 onetom, unfortunately, the C/C++ section didn't have an option for 'support Objective-C' :/ 18:40:49 You can get online once installed with BeOS on the chat system that most use, called BeShare. 18:40:57 www.beshare.com or something like that, they have a client for a MUSCLE network protocol, and it ain't much better than IRC. 18:40:59 Suzanne: aha 18:41:15 just download GNU GCC and you have ObjC 18:41:16 :) 18:41:19 Thanks to NeXT 18:41:29 (yet 'support MacOS X' *was* an option, go figure 18:41:29 Forther: gcc == objc? 18:41:34 Well, thanks to Stepstone -> NeXT -> GNU 18:41:35 forther, umm, as long as its NOT cygwin :) 18:41:43 forther, cygwin hasn't support ObjC for a while now 18:41:52 cygwin? 18:41:57 is that the GNU GCC? 18:42:06 forther, cygwin == gcc ported to windows 18:42:09 Oh 18:42:09 (not the only port) 18:42:12 yes, I heard they dumped it. 18:42:21 I thought you meant GNU GCC proper. 18:42:23 mingw32 is another gcc port, and it DOES support ObjC :) 18:42:30 I don't take anything windows seriously, except offensively. 18:42:38 LOL :) 18:42:43 forther, one issue i have with gcc though, is the lack of support for ObjC++ which is useful when interfacing with C++ libs 18:42:47 :) 18:43:14 WHo here is doing anything with GNUStep? 18:43:21 (not to change the subject, it is related to ObjC) 18:43:31 forther, nope, just cocoa here 18:43:45 Suzanne, how long you been doing cocoa apps? 18:43:52 a year or so 18:44:01 Suzanne: is it paying? :D 18:44:01 Do you know who Arron Hillgass is? 18:44:19 yeah, author of one of the books on cocoa, the o'reilly one was it ? 18:44:20 OR andrew stone, or any of the OmniGroup folks? 18:44:33 Suzanne, Arron, my employee #3 out of college in 1991 :) 18:44:50 hehehehe, the community went from SMALL to now the leaders of the OSX pack, it is hillarious. 18:44:57 :) 18:45:24 * onetom feels that he's a nobody here 18:45:26 Suzanne, yes, he is an author, and founder of the www.bignerdranch.com 18:45:32 I'm nobody for sure, I like it that way. 18:45:36 :) 18:45:42 All part of the past, just fun and games now. 18:45:57 But, really Suzanne, what do you do with ObjC and cocoa (the old NS and OS libraries basically). 18:45:57 Forther: is there an .iso for beos? I don't see it. 18:46:06 gilbertdeb, hard to find one. 18:46:12 emmm/ 18:46:15 how does one install it then? 18:46:22 forher, i have a couple of apps i tinker on from time to time, one of which is an irc client 18:46:28 But you can get a MUSCLE server and BeShare client (JavaShare) and find someone on the BeShare network and rip it. 18:46:37 okay. 18:46:38 gilbertdeb, you can get the free version I believe, and burn it. 18:46:44 hold on, let me see if I have one. 18:46:45 url? :) 18:46:49 gilbertdeb, working on it. 18:46:53 thanks. 18:47:00 Oh, I do have a quad system running BeOS also :) 18:47:02 heeheheheheh 18:47:15 hehehe. 18:47:21 but it is a dead end system! 18:47:23 http://sdo.dyndns.org/configurations/sdo/sdoquad/index.html 18:47:27 there are no new apps for it ar ethere? 18:47:28 the irc client code has given me some major headaches, like trying to understand DO stuff for multi-threading and serving objects across threads 18:47:38 Yes, there are new apps, but not real new apps, meaning like major releases. 18:47:43 Small apps, such. 18:48:01 But again, a word processor is a WP, and spreadsheet is SP, the honest is that technology on computers has been deadend for about 20+ years. 18:48:07 (i have to say, once you understand it, DO is the most elegant OO+threading approach EVER!) 18:48:23 I believe VisaCalc and then CastleWolf were the only two innovations for personal computers in the last 25 years. 18:48:40 what is Castlewolf? 18:48:44 ID software 18:48:49 oh the game? 18:48:52 precursor to Quake 18:48:55 forther, oh, you mean Wolfenstein 3D :P 18:48:55 DOom 18:48:57 so forth. 18:49:06 castle wolfenstein != wolfenstein 3D 18:49:17 at least from a software perspective. 18:49:23 I remember playing Rise of the Triads. very good game too :) 18:49:30 anyone into IF here? 18:49:32 castle wolfenstein is the old Apple II game that Wolf3D was based on :) 18:49:35 IF ? 18:49:36 forther, yes 18:49:41 Suzanne, cool! 18:49:43 forther, but i haven't done much with IF in years 18:49:44 lets get married. 18:49:49 what is IF? 18:49:55 That is my only criteria now for a wife, if she loves or knows what IF is, we are partners ;) 18:50:00 gilbertdeb: interactive fiction 18:50:07 as in adventure? 18:50:09 gilbertdeb: text adventures and the like, basically 18:50:11 or game books? 18:50:17 I hereby proclaim Suzanne loves Forther, and like wise. 18:50:23 hheheheheh:) 18:50:28 forther, in your dreams :P 18:50:33 Suzanne, of course. 18:50:36 turn to page 20 if you want to go left, turn to page 40 otherwise that sort of thing? 18:50:42 I go to bed and lie my head, and dream dream dream. 18:50:50 gilbertdeb: argh, Fighting Fantasy!! :/ 18:50:56 gilbertdeb, TADS, Inform, so forth. 18:50:59 ADventure! 18:51:05 adventure. 18:51:09 hunt the wumpus. 18:51:10 * Suzanne hits gilbertdeb with steve jackson 18:51:14 Thats who! 18:51:17 I had a lot of his books. 18:51:26 Scott! 18:51:27 * Suzanne hits gilbertdeb with steve jackson again, harder 18:51:32 lol 18:51:50 http://www.igs.net/~tril/if/ 18:51:59 http://www.ifarchive.org/ 18:52:13 http://www.ifcomp.org/ 18:52:23 great links, HUGO is pretty good as I recall too. 18:52:28 forther, i've written 5 adventure cores over the years :) 18:52:31 TADS is my favorite just because it is what i used first. 18:52:36 Suzanne, really. 18:52:38 (the last of which was multi-user) 18:52:43 complete toolsets and interpreters? 18:52:47 forther, yeah 18:52:54 I've never made it all the way past the snake in adventure. 18:53:07 I'm impressed ,that is definitely a bonus, I'll give you 2 extra weeks a year vacation time on our yearly anniversary. 18:53:17 heheh. 18:53:17 :) 18:53:35 Suzanne, you are quite a catch. Damn, I'm almost imagining children already :) 18:53:36 Forther: Suzanne has been declared an uber geek by onetom. 18:53:44 she is! 18:53:48 gilbert, lol 18:53:49 Is she hot, or a scab? 18:53:52 she knows *stuff*. 18:53:58 gilbert, i think that was more because of my VMS experience :P 18:54:03 this is irc. it is your dream Forther :) 18:54:23 Little Geeks running around. 18:54:32 yelling for more geekgadgets. 18:54:40 Suzanne: I have an indigo2 r10k IP28 running irix. yet another unix. nothing I've done comes close to VMS so far. 18:54:55 gilbertdeb, I have 4 of them in storage. 18:55:01 really? 18:55:03 I'm about to part them R10K indi 2. 18:55:03 actually, i keep meaning to rig up my two spare G3s in a cluster, that's pretty geeky, i think :) 18:55:11 Yes, got them for 25 bucks a pop at auction in June. 18:55:24 Forther: where the hell do you live??? I'm moving! 18:55:28 all have 384 megs of RAM, all are 195 Mhz??? and all are with High Impact, not Max. 18:55:34 yeah 195mhz 18:55:39 I did the 'hinv' 18:55:47 I think mine has solid impact. 18:55:50 I live near the government surplus in the central US. 18:55:52 I just took the video card out to stare at. 18:55:56 :) 18:56:07 I wish mine had the max impact, cause they would bring money. 18:56:09 Forther: how often do they run auctions? 18:56:17 forther, isn't ALL of the central US 'government surplus' ? :) 18:56:18 I'm going to part them all out and make rent this month on time :) 18:56:22 LOL 18:56:24 Suzanne, yes. 18:56:25 hahaha 18:56:27 1 billion a day 18:56:39 the government burns 1 billion in tech surplus a DAY 18:56:45 wow. 18:56:49 yes, a DAY 18:56:54 well, i was thinking more in terms of the central US being 'bits we don't really need or want' :) 18:56:57 and that is going to grow this year by about 50 18:57:15 The US governmint is going to try and spend itself out of debt. 18:57:16 Forther: do you know if they have a surplus anywhere in florida as well? 18:57:17 LOL go figure. 18:57:18 which i think pretty much sums up the dakotas, idaho, most of illinois, etc :) 18:57:20 Yes. 18:57:24 Georgia 18:57:29 some in FL 18:57:34 miami? 18:57:36 you just have to ask around. 18:57:44 in every state there is some means of surplus auctions. 18:57:47 Forther: miami is no geek haven :( 18:57:51 every state has major US gov contracts. 18:58:06 whereever there is government, there is not far auctions. 18:58:14 heh 18:58:18 hmmm. NASA is here in florida. 18:58:21 US, local, regional, district, international. 18:58:27 gilbertdeb, you're catching on. 18:58:27 our local 'government' thing is just a source of annoying noises ;) 18:58:37 Suzanne, thats because you don't live where I do :) 18:58:40 i sometimes wonder why they feel a need to test 120mm shells at 4am 18:58:56 wanna see a nice photo I took 3 days ago on a camping trip (where I amost died about 6 hours after photos was taken) 18:59:07 Suzanne: to see how long before the natives protest! 18:59:14 gilbert, that could be it 18:59:17 died of what? 18:59:18 any takers? 18:59:20 photo? 18:59:28 sure why not. 18:59:32 gilbert, the alternative explanation, is to annoy the moonie compound thats about half a mile from them :) 18:59:39 hahaha 18:59:39 gilbertdeb, got lost was alone, heat of 100 degs, dehydration, low food, getting dark, hypglycemia. 18:59:42 http://sdo.dyndns.org/misc/fisherpeak080603/panoramic.jpg 19:00:04 I took that photo Monday at 11:30 PM 19:00:06 at about 9200 feet. 19:00:12 slowest loading photo, evar! :) 19:00:15 LOL 19:00:18 Suzanne, it is a slow link. 19:00:22 heh 19:00:23 I have cable, and upload is SLOW 19:00:31 90 kbit limit. 19:00:32 it looks a bit like that here, all the time :) 19:00:32 pretty darned good photo! 19:00:38 gilbertdeb, thanks! 19:00:42 IT is 6 photos together. 19:00:42 except we're only 1300-1500 feet ASL 19:00:52 2 megapixel FinePix Fuji 2800 camera. 19:01:14 And the resolution I shrunk to make it possible to manipulate the photos on this low ram machine. 19:01:22 this isn't anywhere near Gatlinburg is it? 19:01:33 Nope. 19:01:44 Don't know where Gatlinburg is, but not here. 19:01:54 tennesee 19:02:09 BTW, anyone into hardware here? 19:02:11 I went to the Hill Billy (yes thats what they call it) museum over there. 19:02:14 forther, a bit 19:02:21 Forther: what do you mean? buying? 19:02:32 Suzanne, cool, have you read the CPU history at ORA.com from the 3rd edition of PC Hardware.... 19:02:41 forther, i might have, not sure 19:02:54 http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pchardnut3/chapter/index.html 19:03:01 really fun read! 19:03:03 which CPU? 19:03:06 intel 19:03:10 ah. 19:03:10 8080 to P4 19:03:18 Forther: do you know APL? 19:03:20 gah! mumble! inability of safari to read pdf inline! grrr! 19:03:26 LOL 19:03:29 safari blows! 19:03:30 LOL 19:03:42 Inline PDFs blow. 19:03:45 gilbertdeb, nope. 19:03:47 OMG 19:03:51 I have wanted to do APL and ML. 19:03:57 i'm only on page 8 and already i'm spotting major errors :P 19:04:10 Suzanne, shit you read fast. 19:04:10 80286, based on iAPX-32 ? 19:04:22 Suzanne, I really think you need to marry me. 19:04:35 Or wait, I think I need you to marry me ;) 19:04:37 hehehehehe 19:04:43 Suzanne, what is your IQ 19:04:49 like in the 160+ range? 19:04:50 i'd rather not say 19:04:52 Forther: shhhh we need her to come back here more often :) 19:04:52 Mensa babe? 19:04:56 don't scare her off. 19:05:05 gilbertdeb, heehehe, she won't scare 19:05:08 yeah, you'd be in the ballpark there, and no, no mensa, i'm not THAT gullible :P 19:05:13 she is too smart to know that this is just BS. 19:05:19 Suzanne, exactly. 19:05:23 they tried to sucker me too. 19:05:34 LOL what a dumb group of 'smart' people. 19:05:41 i've known a bunch of mensa people 19:05:44 I'm not 160 material. 19:05:45 Forther: just pay your membership dues and they'll be happy to have you. 19:05:47 they're usually very arrogant :) 19:05:51 gilbertdeb, yes that is true. 19:05:58 they are amazingly arrogant. 19:06:03 It is a sign of insecurity. 19:06:09 They really know much of nothing. 19:06:22 forther, only time i've ever used my IQ as a weapon, was in an argument with a mensa member 19:06:29 LOL, now that is great! 19:06:35 she refused to believe i was as smart as her 140 IQ ass 19:07:09 of course, then she disputed my IQ test as 'probably inaccurate' until i pointed out WHO tested me :) 19:07:14 (the UK government) 19:07:51 140 is pretty average smart, meaning 99.5%, but 160 is brilliant. 19:08:13 forther, indeed, but there are numbers beyond 160 :P 19:08:26 Yes, not many. 19:08:40 I think i have a 99.5 *_* 19:08:47 gilbertdeb, me too :) 19:08:48 lets just say, if my test was accurate, i can officially say 'einstein was retarded!' :P 19:08:51 hahah. 19:08:52 I feel good about how 'smart' I am. 19:08:56 But wow, 160+ is just amazing! 19:09:02 I feel smarter just being 'next' to Suzanne 19:09:07 The MIT effect. 19:09:21 Forther: riiight, the last time a bunch of really smart people came together, they built us a BOMB we cann't get rid of anymore. 19:09:25 but, IQ is all BS anyway, it doesn't really mean much 19:09:28 Not many are bright at MIT, but there is that osmosis effect that lasts 2-4 years after they graduate. 19:09:29 :) 19:09:32 I'm really not that impressed by high iq's. 19:09:41 its fun to tweak the mensas who believe it DOES mean everything, though 19:09:45 Suzanne, actually IQ isn't all BS, but it doesn't say much about one's ability to deal with life. 19:10:00 gilbertdeb, I'm impressed with hi IQs, and also what is behind them. 19:10:03 Forther: the tests determine how well you can do on IQ tests :D 19:10:10 Suzanne seems to be well balanced, so she impresses me. 19:10:11 forther, true, it has some use, but i'm not sure its the best tool for evaluating 'intelligence' 19:10:26 gilbertdeb, yes, and so do SAT and so do entrance exams of any kind. 19:10:31 It is all about cult insecurities :) 19:10:35 of course, there aren't many good tests, hence the reason why IQ is trusted by so many 19:10:48 Forther: which is why I prefer essay based requirements! 19:10:56 gilbert, see, there is the problem 19:10:58 gilbertdeb, I would prefer to sit down with someone and just chat. 19:11:00 i suck at writing essays :) 19:11:02 bodylanguage to me says loads. 19:11:11 Suzanne, don't you suck at other things too? 19:11:22 Oh crap, that didn't come out right. 19:11:24 sorry. 19:11:24 Suzanne: I can BS quite well, i prefer essay based tests :D 19:11:27 forther, i'm not going to answer that :P 19:11:36 gilbert, oh, i can BS on an essay 19:11:46 I'm hit and miss with essays. 19:11:48 as long as the essay isn't being evaluated on essay writing skills, i can do well :) 19:12:00 If I'm feeling in 'tune' with my thoughts, it is a go, otherwise it is just jibberish. 19:12:08 i once scored a B- on a essay physics exam, when i didn't know the first thing about what i was writing about, just made it all up :P 19:12:15 Suzanne, how many natural languages do you know? 19:12:35 forther, 1 and a bit 19:12:36 are there unnatural languages Forther? 19:12:40 BTW, for those suckers out there like me that don't know, Susan is taken! :) 19:12:41 assuming you mean 'real-world' languages 19:12:48 Suzanne, yes. 19:13:05 real world. 19:13:07 i learnt french, and some german, at school, have forgotten it all tho 19:13:26 Suzanne, how many computer and artificial languages do you know, 20-30+? 19:13:32 how many are you fluent in? 19:13:35 i keep trying to learn japanese, but its like learning to wiggle your spine without using any muscles :P 19:13:42 forther, around that 19:13:52 Suzanne: be the spine! 19:14:02 Suzanne, just like me, I knew french and some german, hebrew and spanish in HS, forgot it all. 19:14:11 30+ computer languages, 4-5 mastered well. 19:14:19 bah Forther. I know hebrew too. 19:14:19 :) I wish we all spoke computers. 19:14:20 forther, now, see... 19:14:21 hehehehe 19:14:23 I can say 'aleph'. 19:14:24 gilbertdeb, you JEW! 19:14:25 my sister is a language junkie 19:14:30 :) 19:14:37 she learnt 12 languages at school, and can still speak/write in most of them 19:14:39 hehehe i can also say 'yhwhwh'. 19:14:40 gilbert = jewish! 19:14:44 != 19:14:44 putz 19:14:45 but give her a computer, and she just goes 'buh?' 19:14:45 :) 19:15:04 * gilbertdeb thinks everyone knows aleph. 19:15:06 Suzanne, my older sister is like that, many natual lanugages but no computer skills, me du only 1 in fameli 19:15:08 in 2 years, she hasn't even managed to work out how to operate email on her set-top-box 19:15:09 just as everyone knows 'alpha'. 19:15:17 and THAT is *designed* for idiots to use :) 19:15:24 gilbert you have the most NY jewish name I have heard in a long time :) 19:15:33 gilbert? 19:15:36 :) 19:15:39 hehehehehe 19:15:39 i think the name belongs to a lazy cat. 19:15:44 LOL 19:16:00 I always wonder 'what lazy pet was I named after???'. 19:16:02 gilbert gahdfree 19:16:12 ah yes, an annoying blight. 19:16:14 nah, that is garfield. 19:16:19 hehehe. 19:16:23 * Suzanne actually finds G.G funny 19:16:27 but.... 19:16:30 GG is funny. 19:16:33 annoyingly. 19:16:37 you have to realise that being annoying IS THE humor 19:16:40 He is lovable. 19:16:45 yes, and he knows it. 19:16:49 In real life, he is very quiet. 19:16:51 Suzanne: he does it effortlessly because of his voice. 19:16:52 most people hear his voice, see him being annoying, and turn off 19:16:55 introvert to the opposite. 19:16:56 they don't realise the annoying is the joke 19:17:12 Yes, he is in many ways like the guy from Taxi. 19:17:15 Man on the Moon dude. 19:17:20 What a great movie. 19:17:22 forth, *nod* 19:17:28 I'm glad Danny Deveto made that movie. 19:17:50 I watch it like once a month, reminds me of what life is about, don't know why yet, but I'll figure it out. 19:18:04 anyone watch My Blue Heaven lately? 19:18:06 forther, unless you don't :) 19:18:11 Suzanne, I will. 19:18:22 Forther: I know what life is about!!! 19:18:25 actually, phenomenon kinda has that effect on me 19:18:27 first truth: we do not exist. 19:18:29 gilbertdeb, you do? 19:18:39 second truth: you just have to make up what you think it should be about :) 19:18:41 Phenom was great, but I have a problem with John The-Cult Travolta 19:18:47 (even though travolta is a silly sci-fi-religion-er :) 19:18:49 gilbertdeb, good point! 19:18:58 I own that, and Patch Adams. 19:18:59 --- quit: ChanServ (Shutting Down) 19:19:00 --- quit: Fractal (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:19:00 --- quit: onetom (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 19:19:01 what a great flick. 19:19:04 And the fisher king. 19:19:20 in between pornos, it is nice to get a good dose of reality. 19:19:23 Forther: more of that from Catch-22 the movie/book. 19:19:38 I read Catch-22 in HS 19:19:41 darn, i wish it would cool down :/ 19:20:00 what would cool down? 19:20:02 and some other good ones. 19:20:07 gilbert, 'it' 19:20:15 gilbert, its like 47C in this room right now 19:20:20 granted, the computers aren't helping, but still 19:20:20 looks around for the universal 'it'. 19:20:25 oh. 19:20:34 Suzanne: how many machines do you have on now??? 19:20:42 gilbert, it depends on how you count 19:20:47 Freaking global warming. 19:20:48 4 computers 19:20:48 * gilbertdeb isn't a computer geek so only maintains four boxes. 19:20:54 but those aren't the primary heat sources 19:21:05 --- join: Fractal (bron@we.brute.forced.your.pgp.key.at.hcsw.org) joined #forth 19:21:10 Better turn up the AC units. 19:21:13 the primary heat sources in this room, are my damned 80s synths :) 19:21:18 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 19:21:19 :O 19:21:23 moog? 19:21:24 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 19:21:24 --- mode: orwell.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 19:21:33 Fractal, welcome. 19:21:37 or that thing johnny keeting played? 19:21:44 gilbert, nah, an ensoniq SD-1 and a yamaha DX7-IIfd 19:21:47 onetom welcome. 19:21:48 ChanServ welcome. 19:22:09 this room has only 4 systems running now, and it is like 95 in here. 19:22:10 EST 19:22:11 EST = it 19:22:11 devo! 19:22:11 I have like 12 in here, but had to turn a bunch off. 19:22:14 http://sdo.dyndns.org/images/fun/trini052503 19:22:14 more photos in my 'home' town, kinda like the wild west. 19:22:17 forther, don't fraternize with the help :P 19:22:22 I live in this town, thought maybe some of ya would get bored so here ya go. 19:22:28 LOL 19:22:34 moog! 19:22:41 arp avitar! 19:22:52 gilbert, tbh, Modular Moog V does all i need for moog-like sounds :) 19:23:05 when I was playing guitar and smoking a LOT of dope in the 70s and 80s, I always wanted to have a synth called Arp Avitar. 19:23:06 heheh. they chipped it didn't they? 19:23:08 i LOVE soft-synths, i could never afford the money/space/cooling for a real moog modular :) 19:23:26 forther, the 2600 was the best Arp 19:23:34 and the coolest name for a synth, EVAR! 19:23:36 I wanted to be Robin Trower! 19:23:47 Bridge of Sighs. 19:24:03 Man, that guy could play like nobody else in the world, I still dig his music! 19:24:09 if i turn on every piece of music hw in this room, i can make hell look like a chilly place :) 19:24:20 heheh. 19:24:22 wow, you are a cool chick, damn. 19:24:32 Can you ask your husband to die please. 19:24:32 Forther: and she knows *stuff*. 19:24:38 hehehe 19:24:57 I'm freaking in love, and if she is a he, I'm still in love, but ain't doing nothing about it. 19:25:04 s/he can be my 'friend' 19:25:04 orther, no, only i'm allowed to do that 19:25:05 LOL 19:25:06 hahaha 19:25:23 wonder where the 'f' went to there... 19:25:29 * Suzanne shrugs and looks under the desk 19:25:36 lost the F 19:25:37 weird. 19:25:41 Did it not echo. 19:25:45 I didn't get it either. 19:25:50 heheh. 19:25:52 who did you do the F-tab and get 'orther' 19:26:07 who = how 19:26:15 she typed way too fast. 19:26:17 * Suzanne briefly reads a bit more of the CPU history, and notices another major omission, one many people make, about the 486 19:26:32 they mention the DX4, but forget its most important and coolest feature :) 19:26:35 I built this SG 19:26:35 http://sdo.dyndns.org/images/redSGguitar/DSCF0004.JPG 19:26:49 DX3 is only 3x bus multiplier. 19:26:52 forther, i keep starting to design my dream guitar, but always get sidetracked before i build anything 19:27:06 forther, no, the DX4 had variable bus multipliers 19:27:07 Suzanne, I have built about 20+ of them. 19:27:09 Forther: how? 19:27:09 they don't mention it 19:27:25 Yes they do, don't they say it is 33 66 and 100 19:27:32 I read it too. 19:27:39 I remember they saying it was multiple. 19:27:45 anyway, it is only 3x bus. 19:27:46 Not 4 19:27:50 :) That I didn't know. 19:27:59 cause I"m not 160 IQ and HOT and know *stuff* 19:28:01 forther, it could run at bus mult of 2-4 19:28:12 you could run a DX4-100 as a 25x4, 33x3 or 50x2 19:28:17 160 iq? and I have a 100 ... 19:28:25 hmm its gonna take me 60 points to get that far. 19:28:28 Yes, I had a protable from Toshiba that did 100, it was 25x4 19:28:34 Nope, 3x33 sorry. 19:28:43 i had a 100 in my old DX50 board 19:28:46 it screamed 19:28:55 could even whomp my P120 on most stuff 19:28:56 Suzanne: whats your favorite old machine? 19:29:01 I had a satilite (still do) that was some DX4 thing, 3x33, it was 3000 bucks in 1995'ish. 19:29:08 damn, that today would buy a nice dual G5 19:29:09 gilbert, how old ? 19:29:12 Old. 19:29:16 one that you might have owned. 19:29:22 Tektronix 4044! 19:29:28 gilbert, from the 8bits, even though i only owned one for a few hours, the Atari 130XE 19:29:40 Jupiter ACE! 19:29:48 Forther: you had one of those? 19:30:03 gilbert, note, my 130XE never worked :( 19:30:04 No, have had neither, been next to a 4044. 19:30:56 The 4044 was the first commercial Smalltalk machine, 1981 or 82 I remember. 19:31:10 the ACE as you know is the only FORTH built in machine that I'm aware. 19:31:32 Suzanne: how come? what chip did it have in it? 19:31:38 Suzanne, what languages did you use to build your toolsets and your intepreters? 19:31:49 Oh, if anyone cares, I have two BeBoxen :) 19:31:53 dual 66 and dual 133 19:31:54 gilbert, the 130XE was 6502 based, but the problem was, 50% of the ram chips were dead out of the box, and it was the last one in the UK 19:31:58 not that this matters much. 19:32:05 forther, for my adventures/MUDs ? 19:32:10 Suzanne, yes. 19:32:16 forther, Z80 asm for the first 19:32:20 BBC Basic for the second 19:32:27 DEC Pascal for the third 19:32:27 You had a BBC computer? 19:32:28 :) 19:32:29 ewww ewww basic? 19:32:32 yippie! 19:32:34 BASIC rules. 19:32:40 standard C for the 4th 19:32:41 bas is a GREAT handy tool. 19:32:45 Forther: I think most sinclairs and what not came with them. 19:32:46 and the 5th was smalltalk 19:32:49 try 'bas' out sometime, I love it. 19:33:02 Suzanne, you did use ST, how cool, do you have it, and was the ST-80 or some other dialect. 19:33:10 forther, mst 19:33:14 aka GNU smalltalk 19:33:17 yes. 19:33:19 1.1.1 19:33:21 or later 19:33:38 with some ST>C bridge code for socket handling :) 19:33:52 I take it was done for MUD or Network... 19:34:05 yeah, the 4th and 5th systems were MUDs 19:34:07 Forther: how is it you build guitars? do you just know how? 19:34:30 gilbertdeb, I learned from a master luthier that I happen to be really good friends with when I graduated from HS. 19:34:34 I lived with him for 1.5 years. 19:34:39 i also was one of the main 'authors' of the data on a lp system a year or two earlier 19:34:40 He taught me a lot, he is a true genious. 19:34:47 http://sdo.dyndns.org/misc/fisherpeak080603/index.html 19:34:50 That is this weekends photos. 19:34:58 had the 'most verbose descriptions' honor :) 19:35:05 LOL 19:35:09 my rooms averaged 500-2000 characters :) 19:35:14 I'm sure you bored them to submissions. 19:35:18 damn, that is HUGE! 19:35:22 you are not good at writing hten. 19:35:25 100-300 is fine. 19:35:35 But 160 IQ, you have to be smart, right! :) hehehehe 19:35:39 forther, well, they were very descriptive 19:35:49 Yes, I'm sure they were. 19:35:56 Suzanne: Haiku descriptions 19:36:00 lol 19:36:02 yes, exactly. 19:36:03 575 19:36:15 you can make it all very inteesting with a MUD named Haiku 19:36:15 i was still thinking in terms of single-player text adventures, where descriptive == good :) 19:36:30 descriptive and feel, mood and verbosity are not the same. 19:36:34 but you know this. 19:36:39 that is the art of IF. 19:36:57 I have played a few IF games that were minimalistic to the Nth, and they played very well. 19:37:14 true 19:38:10 Like in Man on the Moon, asking the guru what was funny, and he responded silence. 19:38:11 :) 19:38:12 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-127-122.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 19:38:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:38:20 kc5tja welcome 19:38:22 :) 19:38:32 http://sdo.dyndns.org/misc/fisherpeak080603/large/DSCF0010.JPG 19:38:38 dead dried high country rodent. 19:38:53 hmmm i found a free vms telnet box. 19:38:57 nothing seems to work on there. 19:39:04 they don't even have 'ls'. 19:39:10 gilbertdeb: VMS isn't Unix. 19:39:12 Try DIR instead. 19:39:24 wb kc5tja :) 19:39:30 and for 'cd', you need to use SET DIRECTORY 19:39:30 is there a | more? 19:39:32 THen after you get DIR working, try HELP. :) 19:39:38 hahaha 19:39:40 gilbertdeb: I don't know. Depends on the shell. 19:39:42 and the directory format is [....] 19:39:46 * kc5tja nods 19:39:52 * kc5tja likes VMS, but it does take a lot of getting used to. 19:39:56 * kc5tja likes Unix too. 19:40:00 with 000000 as the root level dir, but you can omit it on VMS 5.1 and above if you're not trying to SET DIR to the root 19:40:02 They both have advantages and disadvantages. 19:40:07 ok, so I want to write my own FORTH, where do I start :) 19:40:19 kc5tja: apparently so does Suzanne. she's done asm stuff in it! 19:40:20 VMS 5.5 installs a 'cd' program by default, though, which mimics unix's cd somewhat :) 19:40:38 then I'll skip out of here. 19:40:48 Forther: decide what sort of forth you want, and what language you're going to write it in 19:40:52 Forther: That's kind of a hard question to answer. :) 19:40:59 ok 19:41:03 forther, step 1) build a stack machine 19:41:03 Assembly language programming know-how is critical to getting a successful Forth running. 19:41:04 I want to write it in FORTH 19:41:05 and ASM 19:41:08 step 2) build a dictionary system 19:41:18 I know 6502, and I know 65x16 19:41:25 forther take a look at the isforth sources sometime then. 19:41:25 I don't know x86 19:41:28 but I will learn. 19:41:33 ok 19:41:35 I have them here. 19:41:36 step 3) implement the core forth words and step 4) implement other forth words that are less important to you in forth :) 19:41:43 isforth-1.13b 19:41:59 Forther: isforth is written in x86 asm and forth. 19:42:06 gilbertdeb, ok 19:42:15 so, step 1, we are x86 and forth. 19:42:22 step 2, I have to build a dictionary system. 19:42:27 step 3 implement the forth core 19:42:31 these people have cobol and basic on their machine! 19:42:33 step 4 the lame extensions. 19:42:33 Forther: decide what sort of code your compiler will compile: tokenized, threaded or direct threaded 19:42:43 Herkamire, ok. 19:42:44 65816 rocks. :) 19:42:49 65816 does ROCK! 19:42:52 :) 19:43:00 I have TONS of Apple IIGS machines. 19:43:01 thats where I got the vms thing from -> http://deathrow.vistech.net/ 19:43:19 Forther: do you have a forth whith an assembler for your target system? 19:43:20 * kc5tja is looking to build his own machine around the 65816, running at approx. 10MHz or so. 19:43:37 Herkamire, I have g/as on this machine. 19:43:43 I'm on x86 with BeOS R5 19:43:50 coooool 19:44:03 I am also on PPC hardware too :) 19:44:09 hehehe, old Mac sheeeet 19:44:13 * kc5tja likes BeOS. That's a sweet system. Made by Amiga afficionados. Long live the Amiga! :D 19:44:15 7300/180 with 320 megs of RAM. 19:44:19 hehhe Herkamire the wind blew in Forther and suzanne today. 19:44:28 * Herkamire likes BeOS even though he hasn't been able to use it much (doesn't seem to have a nic driver for my gf's computer) 19:44:29 you'd never guess what geeks they are! 19:44:41 Herkamire, tell me the NIC and I'll find you the driver. 19:44:52 gilbertdeb, Suzanne is the geek delux. 19:44:57 and a girl too! :) 19:44:58 hehehe. 19:45:07 Forther: might be the first here ever! 19:45:15 gilbertdeb, I hope not the last. 19:45:17 Hey, I'm available... nudge nudge wink wink say no more! 19:45:20 ;) 19:45:25 haha 19:45:28 kc5tja, hhehehhe, me too, maybe she would marry us all. 19:45:31 kc5tja: she KNOWS stuff. 19:45:36 nah, but we can admire her from afar. 19:45:44 * kc5tja nods -- I'm just joking. 19:45:45 Suzanne does know ****STUFFF**** 19:45:47 * ian_p watches everyone drool over the forthette 19:45:51 ;) 19:45:52 lol 19:45:52 say no more! 19:45:55 Heheh :D 19:45:57 forthette! 19:46:04 Forther: windoze -> control panel -> Network says it's: "CNet PRO200 PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter" 19:46:04 I'm going to name my forth after Suzanne 19:46:08 does she like.. pictures? 19:46:09 is that the right info? 19:46:09 bah. lets stop hitting on her and pick her brain while she's here. 19:46:11 my forht is now officially named forthette 19:46:22 Forther: I get 5% royalties 19:46:30 haha 19:46:43 ian_p, how about a pat on the back since you and I both know there ain't no money even for Elizabeth in FORTH :) 19:46:43 * kc5tja wasn't picking on her; just making light of the usual male-geek-without-a-girlfriend predicament. 19:46:47 I need vms help for one. 19:46:53 we are a pathetic lot 19:46:56 I wonder if remote X is possible on those machines. 19:47:07 well, if you have an xserver, it should be. 19:47:09 Besides, I doubt I'd be able to sustain a relationship anyway. 19:47:18 kc5tja, well, thoughts are things. 19:47:25 kc5tja: did the VMS boxes have gui? 19:47:27 gilbertdeb, assuming you mena xhost = remote X 19:47:32 yeah 19:47:56 gilbertdeb: They had X11. 19:47:56 this is a strange animal! 19:48:13 Only DEC's version of X11 was called DECWindows. :) 19:48:39 http://sdo.dyndns.org/images/fishersphenom/fisherspeak-images19.20.21.datejun272003.jpg 19:48:43 hmmm. help won't exit, and it knows next to nothing. 19:48:53 check out that cloud cluster I shot 2 months ago. 19:49:00 it is trying to tell ME what to seek help on. 19:49:09 where is apropos when you need it? 19:49:40 gilbertdeb: And it's probably right. VMS is trying to tell you, "You don't know VMS." :) 19:49:52 who asked me about guitar building? 19:49:52 hahahaha 19:49:53 Forther: That, sir, is a thunderhead. :D 19:49:57 Forther: I did. 19:50:00 http://www.fidelismorphin.com/ 19:50:05 gilbertdeb, that is the guy's home page. 19:50:11 The SG on the left is mine also. 19:50:34 He started that in 1984 when I started my first SG, together, we built, he showed me the 61 LP/SG design and stuff. He finally gave he his as a 'gift' 19:50:51 His name is Brian Nelson, a really famous builder in the NW where I grew up in Seattle. 19:51:05 Forther: Where are you located? 19:51:10 I'm in CO now. 19:51:12 have been for 15 years. 19:51:43 I was going to say, I didn't expect to see thunderheads like that in Washington state. :D 19:51:53 * Suzanne returns 19:51:59 Brian is finishing up another for me, very cool semi accoustical chambered (tunable with sliders in the body) thing that he invented about 10 years ago, now finallizing the patents and first round of guitars. 19:52:13 oh hi suzanne, we were talking about you behind your back. 19:52:18 kc5tja, yes, that is over what most call the 'bermuda triangle' of the SW. 19:52:21 'behind your back'. 19:52:25 hahah 19:52:27 That is Fishers Peak and that is about 2 miles from my ranch here. 19:52:34 stupid cat 19:52:42 gilbertdeb is talking smack, I'm worshipping you. 19:52:43 Lucky, you have a ranch. :) 19:52:47 Lots of land, no doubt. 19:52:51 kc5tja, 108 acres. 19:52:57 Forther: you have a ranch? 19:53:03 well, ranchette. 19:53:03 Someday I'll have land. *sigh* 19:53:14 I'd be happy with only 6 acres. 19:53:19 Ted Turner owns land next to me, he has a TON. 19:53:22 640000 acres. 19:53:23 goodness Forther are you one of them dot com millionaires who bailed out early? 19:53:41 gilbertdeb, I'm not rich, but I did get out 'early' 19:53:41 :) 19:53:44 hehehehe 19:53:58 I invested a SHITload of money into the #6 stock on Nasdaq in 1999 19:54:04 :) I held on too long, but I didn't lose. 19:54:06 Forther: Looking for a computer consultant for hire? I run a consultancy. I can build webpages. Ooooo....fear me. D 19:54:06 :D 19:54:14 kc5tja :) 19:54:24 blue collor workers of the new millenium. 19:54:39 My website says I service San Diego county, but I'm going to change that to offer nationwide service once I get a chance to talk to a few legal assistants. 19:54:44 what was the #6 stock? 19:54:46 hehehehe, but I do appreciate quality web design, I'm not that 'graphical' 19:54:50 Well, I'm damn poor right now. 19:54:51 CYBR 19:54:54 they are defunct now. 19:54:58 hahaha 19:55:00 2600% return in 3 months. 19:55:03 you did get out early didn't you? 19:55:06 Yes. 19:55:10 But not early enough. 19:55:15 I lost 500000 USD in 24 hours at one point. 19:55:23 Forther: Graphics must be used in moderation. http://www.falvotech.com -- My kind of website. Of course, I tailor to the customer's needs, but I prefer simplicity. 19:55:49 kc5tja: your kind of website is YOUR website. 19:55:49 kc5tja, fear me too, sdo.dyndns.org. 19:55:53 LOL 19:56:12 gilbertdeb: Precisely. Eat your own dogfood, practice what you preach, and so on. 19:56:18 My website SUCKS, and I like it that way :) 19:56:31 heheh. 19:56:34 I hate web design. 19:56:39 It is like my mind, messed up and organized. 19:56:41 i like the serverside part though. 19:56:49 I hate the Web period. 19:56:56 it's easy to hate.. especially how abused it is 19:57:01 Xanadu should have been the web, not HTML and crap resulting. 19:57:04 but it's a dman good medium, considering how many people .. 19:57:20 i mean look @ the power of google 19:57:31 Xanadu is overcomplicated now anyway. 19:57:34 Yes, there is good to come from proper design and implementation. 19:57:38 It's as bad as HTML is. 19:57:38 Xanadu is dead. 19:57:44 has been for a long time. 19:57:55 Ted's Xanadu as I recall is partial. 19:57:59 Tell that to the original author -- he's still hacking away on it. :) 19:58:27 Yes, but only part of it. 19:58:37 Ted didn't retain rights to about 60% of the stuff. 19:58:42 * ian_p had never heard of it... perusing xanadu.com 19:58:44 He sold most of it to Autodesk. 19:58:45 Forther: whence the strong interest in smalltalk? 19:58:51 Yes. 19:58:52 did you use it commercially? 19:58:57 no 19:59:11 the Xanadudes where next to me and my group at Filoli Information Systems. 19:59:13 There is nothing wrong with the web's transport architecture that i can see. 19:59:20 It's HTML that is the issue. 19:59:21 We were contracted to do ATG stuff for a paperless office. 19:59:29 i make a little use of an audio synthesis language with a very smalltlak-like syntax.. it's quite interesting... 19:59:32 kc5tja, exactly. 19:59:40 TCP/IP and the HTTP are not the problem. 19:59:47 that and objc are my only smalltalk exposure but it looks cool 19:59:47 But, the accountability of the web is wrong. 19:59:48 I beg to differ there, too, but for other reasons. 19:59:53 TCP is a design flaw. 19:59:58 Forther: but how do you enforce more of anything 20:00:02 ian_p, Xanadu was about 1.1 million lines of ST. 20:00:05 (IP is OK though) 20:00:07 kc5tja: why, should it be more stateful? 20:00:13 Forther: xanadu was in ST??? 20:00:13 million? 20:00:16 fark 20:00:18 ian_p, you have to have some kind of IP accountability. 20:00:26 HTML and Web do not support any notion of it. 20:00:30 xanadu had MORE code than the linux kernel??? 20:00:31 That is where Xanadu was so strong. 20:00:33 right 20:00:44 ian_p: End-to-end acknowledgements cause untold numbers of network failures that otherwise could be utterly avoided with peer-to-peer store-and-forward switching fabrics. 20:01:04 lost packets is a bad way to run a world of communications. 20:01:13 kc5tja: so basically smarter routing in between... 20:01:18 partially. 20:01:20 ian_p: yup 20:01:22 I'm no expert. 20:01:49 * kc5tja kind of is; I worked in the ISP industry for 10+ years, the last 6 of which were right here in Sunny CA. 20:01:53 kinda like caching? does tcp not do that much? 20:01:57 Worked with all kinds of networking technologies. 20:02:06 No. Here's what happens (diagrammatically) 20:02:08 (TCP) 20:02:14 A -> B C D 20:02:21 A B -> C D 20:02:27 A B C -> D 20:02:33 A B C <- D 20:02:40 A B <- C D 20:02:47 A <- B C D 20:02:49 hehe, right. 20:02:51 Slow. 20:03:00 so B could go to D or some such 20:03:01 Unfathomably inefficient use of available bandwidth. 20:03:05 kc5tja: 'stack' hint hint. 20:03:22 AND, if any one of those links goes down at just the wrong moment (all too common), your connection is seized and useless. 20:03:31 Here's how a store-and-forward network would work: 20:03:32 right... 20:03:35 A -> B C D 20:03:41 A <- B -> C D 20:03:47 A -> B <- C -> D 20:03:54 A <- B -> C <- D 20:04:00 A B <- C -> D 20:04:08 A B C <- D 20:04:26 Much more efficient -- note that A transfers twice as much data in the channel as with TCP. 20:04:46 And it's more reliable: if the link between B and C goes down, only the adjacent nodes need be concerned with retransmission. 20:04:58 It's MUCH less expensive to retransmit on a backbone than it is on the local network. 20:05:09 interesting 20:05:30 why hasnt anyhting like that become reality in the big picture? 20:05:34 bbl 20:05:37 * kc5tja notes that as little as 10% packet loss will make a TCP/IP connection on a cable modem utterly useless. It turned my 10Mbps link to a 10kbps (yes, that KILObit) link. 20:05:43 thanks guys and girl for all your thoughts on doing forthette 20:05:46 :) 20:05:52 heheh. 20:05:53 Well, ATM networking uses an intelligent switching fabric. 20:05:53 8r 20:05:55 l8r 20:05:55 stop by again Forther. 20:06:02 okdokay, I will. 20:06:09 But TCP is the standard for Internet, and nobody wants to change because it "requires an intelligent network." 20:06:18 This is much more interesting and informative than the BeShare system (in generla, the Beshare system is the deal for BeOS) 20:06:24 kc5tja: can it not be rebuilt slowly? 20:06:24 Well, name me *ONE* switch used anywhere on the Internet that doesn't have at least a 68030 at its core? 20:06:25 8r 20:06:34 gilbertdeb: It requires a whole new networking stack. 20:06:42 TCP is broken by design -- it cannot be fixed. 20:06:56 kc5tja: but like alohanet, couldn't sections of it be built at a time? 20:07:01 No. 20:07:03 It cannot. 20:07:06 kc5tja: but it is broken by design for a reason! 20:07:20 gilbertdeb: And that reason is? 20:07:29 20:07:52 damn where did my bofh excuse client go? 20:08:02 *shrugs* 20:08:07 Basically, when the Internet was first being built, they didn't have routers. 20:08:20 But routers didn't come far behind. 20:08:32 makes sense... 20:08:32 They had every opportunity to fix the infrastructure when the first routers came into existance. 20:08:34 kc5tja: and you're sure in re-building it, it won't suffer a second systems effect? ;) 20:08:36 Instead, they didn't. 20:08:44 They chose the "Backward Compatibility" route. 20:08:57 a paradigm all too common 20:09:25 gilbertdeb: The telco industry AND the ham radio packet network both use store-and-forward connection-oriented networking. I mean, the technology is known to work, and work well. 20:09:28 --- quit: a7r (Connection timed out) 20:09:52 ah yes you mentioned something about the ham radio network. 20:10:00 have you started putting that together yet? 20:10:16 unfortunately SS7 is (believed/)known to 'work well' :P 20:10:17 No. There has been no public interest, and I've been preoccupied with making my rent payments. 20:10:25 Forther: i promise that im gonna ask non-gui smalltalk questions too ;) so dont miss comin back 20:10:34 What is SS7? 20:10:50 kc, the signalling protocol 80% or so of the telco industry still relies on 20:11:07 Yeah, well, SS7 has no bearing on the network transport architecture they have. 20:11:09 'Signalling System 7' 20:11:12 Suzanne: I'm not gonna bother to ask how you know this stuff anymore ;) 20:11:15 * kc5tja doesn't know much of anything about SS7. 20:11:22 kc, actually, in a sense, it does, but not to a major degree 20:11:25 But I do know that ATM and X.25 networks are independent of it. 20:11:40 ATM roll-out isn't anywhere near as big as it should have been by now 20:11:42 hmm -webopedia.com is cool 20:12:14 Well, "commercial" ATM networks use SS7 to establish a connection, but ATM itself doesn't care what is actually used. It's like saying Telnet is intrinsically a part of IP, which it clearly isn't. 20:12:25 (or, ssh would be a better example) 20:13:14 Suzanne: That's because the ATM community dropped the ball. They totally dropped the ball in its marketing, making it open (atmforum.com came WAY too late), and electing to ignore the needs of data-only networking needs. 20:13:24 kc, well, in some of the transport layers, each route requires a SS7 conversation 20:13:26 Many people complain about its overhead, but I can put the kaboshes on that pretty quick too. 20:13:43 and SS7 has major flaws that mean more call attempts == less reliability 20:13:46 Again, ATM as a layer-2 protocol does not care about SS7. 20:13:50 Any more than IP cares about TCP. 20:14:20 kc, yes, but if your transport is relying on SS7 establishing links, then store-and-forward causes problems 20:14:30 i'm not saying ALL of the IP network relies on it, but some parts do 20:14:57 People don't believe that I can build a more reliable networking infrastructure for the ham radio community using ATM over the air, but I will show them wrong in the future. I just need to have free time to do it with, and that means, I need financial independence (which I do not have). 20:15:15 and those parts would need to be removed from the telco backbones before a store-and-forward networking layer could be rolled out 100% 20:15:20 And no, I'm not using SS7. 20:15:33 kc, can't see why you'd want or need to :) 20:16:22 so what's something that makes use of ATM? 20:16:41 Nearly every kind of DSL service you can think of uses ATM to the house. 20:16:52 The DSL router is basically an ATM/Ethernet gateway. 20:17:09 * Suzanne thinks of IDSL just to throw a spanner in kc's point :P 20:17:24 * kc5tja notes the word "nearly". 20:17:38 ADSL, VDSL, SDSL, etc. are all ATM-based. 20:17:50 Is there a #forth community wiki somewhere? 20:17:54 ISDL is based on ISDN. 20:17:57 you know with photos and profiles of the users here? 20:18:00 Forther: None worthy of note. 20:18:02 kc, i know that :) 20:18:03 LOL 20:18:04 ok 20:18:32 * kc5tja wanted to start a programming patterns Wiki once, but nobody else expressed interest. 20:18:46 nobody except, perhaps, Chuck Moore (indirectly). 20:18:53 ah 20:20:30 kc5tja: start and they'll come. 20:20:41 gilbertdeb: I did start. 20:20:45 oh. 20:20:46 That's how I guaged interest. 20:20:59 Notice how little used our #forth portal is. 20:21:11 kc5tja: it is not very alive. 20:21:19 I think clf has more life though. 20:22:46 kc5tja: dont b that unpatient... 20:23:03 kc5tja: where is that wiki, let me have a look at it 20:23:18 * kc5tja tries not to be. But there's no denying it -- I haven't received one article submission from anyone yet. 20:23:28 onetom: don't you have a wiki too? 20:23:37 btw, on the subject of TCP/IP, my biggest 'claim to fame' is probably carrying vint cerf's suitcase at SFO for him, pretty sad huh ? :) 20:23:48 kc5tja: dun worry I'll see about submitting an article in 3 weeks or so when i write my first 4th. 20:23:51 if you build it, they will come 20:23:59 Don't know who Vint Cerf is. 20:24:02 Suzanne: awww you've done MORE. 20:24:08 gilbertdeb: yeah, but thats mainly an old/not-updated personal bookmark site 4 me 20:24:23 kc, the person pretty much credited with inventing TCP/IP :P 20:24:30 Ahh. 20:24:33 * kc5tja loves Wiki. 20:24:55 * kc5tja prefers a Wiki that is backed by CVS to allow for easy recovery from vandalism. 20:25:14 But my current favorite wiki is Piki, a Python clone of the original C2 wiki. 20:25:17 wiki's are cool. 20:25:18 i worked for one of the other TCP/IP developers, and was asked if i wanted to come along to meet vint, when they (my boss, and vint's wife) sprung a anniversary surprise on him 20:25:23 * kc5tja wants to write a Wiki in Forth some day. 20:25:29 kc5tja: there you go -> http://www.pbs.org/opb/nerds2.0.1/cast/page2.html#cerf 20:25:38 that'd be a good project 20:26:04 Well, I am planning on writing a simple CMF for my website in Forth, so I figured that'd be the place to start. 20:26:34 Suzanne: are you hiring by any chance? 20:26:37 I can: 20:26:46 fetch the papers and see whats on tv :D 20:26:48 i can carry briefcases well 20:26:56 I do morning papers only though/1 20:26:57 Suzanne: its turning out more & more clear that it would b far more simpler if u would enlist those things u didnt know about/havent touched/havent heared about instead... ;) 20:27:09 im just happy to have a job in computers. i can't complain, i guess. 20:27:18 ian_p: lucky man. 20:27:25 yeah 20:27:41 very 20:27:48 ian_p: I can carry briefcases better! 20:27:54 :) 20:28:00 my secret is silk handkerchiefs! 20:28:07 onetom, well, we can cross chocolate topped donuts off that list :P 20:28:34 well Suzanne, hiring or not? you've seen my skill set AND I can carry brief cases better than ian can! 20:28:37 ha ha 20:28:52 you'd make a poor beat cop! 20:28:54 gilbert, lol, no, i'm not 'hiring' :P 20:29:15 whaa? you don't need a gofer? 20:29:42 * gilbertdeb runs pretty fast 6 feet or less distances. 20:29:48 i don't NEED one, no :P 20:30:34 * gilbertdeb was once 'last to make it to the kitchen is a rotten tomato' champion. 20:31:21 gilbertdeb: How many rotten tomato titles does it take to achieve that title? :) 20:31:24 * gilbertdeb knows stuff too! can spell Timbooktoo properly. 20:31:29 hehehe :) 20:31:39 kc5tja: locals or regionals ? ;) 20:31:47 I believe it was spelt Timbuktu? 20:31:55 not sure anymore. 20:32:00 thought it was timbuktoo 20:32:07 gilbertdeb: umm 20:32:19 tim BUCK too. 20:32:25 not tim book too. 20:32:27 or something. 20:32:28 of the about 8 variations on the name accepted, Timbooktoo is not one of them ;P 20:32:44 http://www.thesalmons.org/lynn/wh-timbuktu.html 20:32:46 :) which is why I say i can spell it properly!! 20:32:59 Timbuktu, Tombouctou, Timbuctoo, Timbucktu and Timbucktoo are all valid 20:33:20 I was close! 20:34:14 guess which one is official, btw :P 20:34:23 hrmm. 20:34:23 clue: its the only one spelt wildly different from the rest :) 20:34:30 Tombouctou I believe. 20:34:32 tomb ouc tou 20:34:35 kc, indeed 20:34:51 I think I"m gonna go there someday. 20:35:00 Not I 20:35:04 gilbert, i wouldn't bother 20:35:04 sky dive into the city! 20:35:07 * kc5tja doesn't want anything at all to do with any part of Africa. 20:35:13 why not kc? 20:35:16 too far for you? :) 20:35:24 gilbert, dangerous place 20:35:27 Between spams from Nigeria and all that hot air in Liberia right now, that place is way too dangerous for me. 20:35:36 Suzanne: where tomb ouc tou? 20:35:53 kc5tja: it might be safe where the animals are :D 20:36:06 spam in nigeria and hot air in liberia.... hmmm. 20:36:08 gilbert, almost all of the countries in africa are perpetually at war these days, and many of them have 'freedom fighters' that just love to kidnap tourists for hostages 20:36:23 in between that are benin, togo, ghana, ivory coast. 20:36:35 ivory coast had a coup d'etat recently-ish. 20:36:45 you might be right kc5tja. 20:36:52 most of the problems can be blamed on the french too :P 20:37:01 lets blame the french then! 20:37:05 Nahh 20:37:12 Let's blame the French-Canadians! 20:37:15 hahaha 20:37:31 :) 20:37:42 * kc5tja notes that suprdupr isn't online... :) 20:37:43 don't forget, vietnam was france's fault too :P 20:37:53 So was our Civil War. :D 20:38:06 * kc5tja is being facetious now. 20:38:08 kc, nah, they just like to pretend they did something important :) 20:38:26 I don't think vietnam was france's fault. 20:38:33 I blame germany for the modern world's woes :D 20:38:36 the civil war, and the war of independance, would both have turned out the same with or without france's involvement, most likely 20:38:37 Actually, the situation in Liberia is USA's fault, I believe. 20:38:44 the english queen? german ancestry. 20:38:49 gilbert, vietnam WAS france's fault, seriously 20:38:49 puritans? germanic ideals. 20:38:51 No, Vietnam was squarely Russia's endeavor. :) 20:38:53 WMD? Germany! 20:39:10 russians going to space? Germany, again. 20:39:16 Us going to space and littering? Germany. 20:39:23 nuclear weapons? yep. germany! 20:39:32 kc, but, the communist uprising that took the north, was due almost entirely to the political vacuum caused by the french withdrawal from indo-china less than a decade before 20:39:36 russians having nuclear weapons? Germany again!!! 20:39:37 :) 20:39:56 Suzanne: and we couldn't just leave them to finish their shoot out? 20:39:58 gilbertdeb: What's your point? 20:40:01 we really could have left them alone. 20:40:11 kc5tja: Not france, but Germany is the culprit! 20:40:17 hell, the french had german descendants :D 20:40:38 gilbert, they're all descended from africans :P 20:40:51 Nah, the germans sprouted forth from a bratwurst. 20:41:01 and Nean Der Thal was born. 20:41:08 HAHAHA! 20:41:25 blame the sumerians! 20:41:28 and they took over the holy roman kingdom soon after and the rest became history, as they wrote it! 20:41:31 Nean Derr Thal looks better, but I don't know German. But that is good. :) I like it! (and I'm half German!) 20:41:41 hehehe. 20:41:47 ian, sounds like a good plan 20:42:02 ian_p: awww what did the sumerians ever do to you? 20:42:08 blame the babylonians!!! 20:42:15 now THEY! they were bad. 20:42:16 gilbert, writing, for a start 20:42:25 They ultimately gave birth to Christianity, which has been the single most devastating religion in the history of mankind. 20:42:47 kc5tja: noooo, for that I blame Zoroaster. 20:43:12 and no, the christians have merely been trying to acquire new members all these years :D 20:43:26 sure a few people died, but they were going to hell _anyway_ 20:43:34 gilbertdeb: Nope. Crusades? Inquisition? KKK? All in the name of "Jesus." 20:43:47 * ian_p places the blame on multi-cellular organisms 20:43:58 such an unneeded complication 20:44:03 ian_p: not uni-cellular? 20:44:06 * kc5tja notes bacteria is where it all really started... Blame them! 20:44:11 they shouldn't have formed cells to begin with!!! 20:44:12 the dolphins and whales were the smart ones, they got BACK in the ocean ;P 20:44:17 hahaha 20:44:31 Suzanne: Thank you! I've been believing that firmly for years. 20:44:38 hehe 20:44:49 Suzanne: thats right, they knew we were enventually gonna build pools and have showers and waste water _anyway_ so why leave? 20:44:53 i bet they crawled out of the sea, looked around, said 'you know, someone is going to fight over this land thing' and turned around and went back in the ocean 20:45:06 hahahahaha 20:45:10 kc, eh? its common knowledge that the whales and dolphins were once land-based mammals that returned to the ocean :) 20:45:11 =] 20:45:24 Suzanne: they were descendants of the wolf. 20:45:36 Suzanne: I know that. I'm talking about the "intelligent decision" to do so though. 20:45:41 kc, ah 20:45:48 kc, they seem to have far more fun than us 20:45:52 Yup 20:45:55 except when the japanese get involved, anyway 20:45:55 And far more intelligence. 20:46:02 * kc5tja nods 20:46:09 what about them 20:46:12 water sports etc. 20:46:16 ian_p: they EAT them. 20:46:20 gilbert, eww 20:46:23 ian_p: They are **NASTY** to dolphins and orca. 20:46:28 why? 20:46:29 japenese love sick things. 20:46:32 And they don't always eat them. 20:46:33 ian_p: it is a delicacy. 20:46:43 But they have no feelings of compassion for them at all. 20:46:46 They are a strange culture. 20:46:47 actually, just eating them wouldn't be a problem 20:46:58 the problem is, they seem to hunt whales for fun most of the time 20:46:59 ian_p: they also have fat. 20:47:07 most of the whales they catch, they just release back into the ocean dead 20:47:08 they use them for making candles and stuff. 20:47:14 we thank the whales for the fat. 20:47:14 a lot of humans dont have a lot of compassion for a lot of other organisms, thats for sure 20:47:37 ian_p: god gave us the land surely, and requires us to dominate it :D 20:47:40 ian, when it comes to eating animals, i have no problem with that, within reason 20:47:47 everything eats SOMETHING else, after all 20:47:56 man its it ALL! 20:47:59 gilbertdeb: i struggle to agree :D 20:48:00 ph34R 20:48:23 ian_p: organizms eat eachother. it was always like that & it always gonna b.. 20:48:41 yeah but respect is involved 20:48:42 Raising animals for the purposes of eating is one thing. 20:48:49 what i have a problem with, is when its not done responsibly 20:48:54 Hunting for food is also acceptable if done in moderation. 20:49:10 Suzanne: I say for every animal we put in captivity, we must donate to the animals family, one of our kind! 20:49:13 ie, when you catch 1,000,000 fish at one time, but don't do anything to even ATTEMPT to reseed your source 20:49:13 But, AS A CULTURE, the people of Japan seem to think that there are an infinite supply of dolphins and whales. 20:49:22 kc5tja: & hunting 4 "fun" is evil? 20:49:28 kc, indeed, and that is what i have a problem with 20:49:28 onetom: Yes. 20:49:31 onetom, not always 20:49:40 Suzanne: thx ;) 20:49:41 onetom, but it can be 20:49:45 i think of the lives of the animal, rather than the deaths.. 20:49:46 it depends on many factors 20:49:58 i think of chicken and cow factories... for instance 20:50:16 ian_p: they're horrible. and they're not good for us. 20:50:19 thats somethin that makes me consider veganism 20:50:27 onetom: Hunting, killing, and not eating and just letting it rot in its environment is evil. 20:50:32 Death without cause. 20:50:39 ian_p: oh, damnit! poor vegetables! ;) 20:50:40 * kc5tja notes that ONLY humans exhibit this behavior. 20:50:47 onetom :) 20:50:49 kc5tja: bah. pleasure :D we do it all the time, it is called WAR! 20:51:02 gilbertdeb: See above. 20:51:17 kc5tja: u never kill flies, spiders, & other small insects? 20:51:28 ian_p: look 20:51:29 kc5tja: indeed I notice that most other animals live in mutual respect, when lions go hunting, they only get what they want and stop. 20:51:30 onetom: i try not to 20:51:31 onetom: Only those that directly annoy me. 20:51:33 onetom, killing an insect is not irresponsible 20:51:40 it might be that they havne't invented refrigerators yet :D 20:51:40 * onetom works in a botanical institute ;) 20:51:42 onetom: Right now, I have several small baby spiders on webs. 20:51:43 onetom, the insect population VASTLY outnumbers us 20:51:57 when i walk down the sidewalk, i take care not to step on any ants 20:52:03 onetom, killing a handful of flies a day isn't going to deprive the world of flies, in ANY time period :) 20:52:03 the biomass of ants alone greatly exceeds the biomass of people! 20:52:26 * kc5tja also has a nasty ant problem. But they don't affect me. I just clean up after myself. They're free to roam about the house looking for non-existant food. 20:52:29 It's their problem, not mine. 20:52:30 gilbert, always remember 1 acre = 1 million spiders on average 20:52:31 Suzanne: i know, but im curious what do the others say ;) 20:52:33 because of respect for life 20:52:37 the insects are gonna take over the world as surely as we have now. 20:52:39 But I don't go out of my way to kill them needlessly. 20:52:45 wow. 20:52:47 gilbert, perhaps, perhaps not 20:52:50 Suzanne: creepy.. im arachnophobic :D 20:53:03 gilbert, insects aren't as diversified as mammals, and COULD be wiped out by some event that wouldn't harm us 20:53:28 Suzanne: I think they are... there are several different kinds and they feed on anything. 20:53:34 gilbert, they are more susceptible to temperature variations, for example 20:53:40 kc5tja: i also live by spiders. all my room is full of webs. i tidy it up only yearly -- roughly ;) 20:53:47 global warming would kill the insects before it would kill humans 20:53:52 as would global cooling 20:53:54 onetom: Me too. Once I see a vacated web, I'll clean it up. 20:54:01 Suzanne: not entirely correct. Roaches are very hardy. 20:54:08 damn messy spiders, can't even clean up after themselves 20:54:13 hahah 20:54:22 ian_p: I question their notion of 'clean'. 20:54:37 ian_p: If a spider cleans up after itself, I'm killing it. :) The only spiders I know that do that are patently poisonous and DO bite people with impunity. 20:54:43 i kill numerous black widows in this room per year 20:54:46 * kc5tja thinks a black widow will do that. 20:54:48 and i'm not at all ashamed of it :P 20:54:57 why do they clean up after themselves? 20:55:10 Suzanne: makes sense for sure :) 20:55:13 ian_p: to make you think they're cool and all. 20:55:13 ian_p: They eat their web to spin it again elsewhere. 20:55:20 i've also killed a handful of tarantulas and brown recluses, this year 20:55:22 wow. nice 20:55:34 Suzanne: where on earth do you live? in brazil??? 20:55:36 and even a couple of the much rarer brown widow 20:55:39 are tarantulas normally poisonous 20:55:40 gilbert, upstate NY 20:55:42 brown widow?? 20:55:44 ian, no, rarely are 20:55:44 Whaaa? 20:55:48 brown recluse? 20:55:50 gilbertdeb: USA has native tarantulas too. 20:55:58 They're not poisonous. They're quite docile too. 20:56:03 yeah, i've seen a tarantula in oklahoma before 20:56:09 ian_p: one? 20:56:10 ian, the brown widow is a MUCH rarer spider, its got a poison worse than the black widow, but milder than the brown recluse 20:56:12 just one 20:56:13 :) 20:56:13 They're damn cool spiders too. :) 20:56:28 ian_p: had it escaped from the circus? :D 20:56:31 the USA has dozens of different types of tarantula too 20:56:31 never even heard of a brown recluse 20:56:37 the ones we get are about 1" including legs 20:56:46 the ones california gets, can be a foot or more :) 20:56:53 * kc5tja likes the jumping spiders. :) 20:56:59 wolf spiders... 20:57:02 crazy bastards 20:57:11 you dont fuck with those! 20:57:14 Jumping spiders are cool -- they're like really tiny tarantula -- all hairy and whatnot, but they're about a half-inch long, and they are **FAST**. 20:57:16 (if you're an insect) 20:57:22 I don't like spiders, i don't like animals. I live them be, and hopefully they don't crawl up my trousers. 20:57:25 yeah. you can't catch those. 20:57:28 iirc, tarantula is pretty much just a cover-all for all 'hairy' spiders :) 20:57:43 heh. one insect I see here i never seen before (urban chicago) - is the silverfish. creepy little bastards. 20:57:56 silverfish? 20:57:56 ian_p: We get those sometimes down here. 20:57:59 ian, i had a major infestation of those buggers in the UK 20:57:59 Weird insects. 20:58:07 gilbert, think small silvery roach things that like water 20:58:14 yeah, they look like centipedes sortof........ 20:58:16 And looks like a fish. :) 20:58:17 gilbert, they're very much like roaches, but different 20:58:18 Kinda. 20:58:19 but more ilke a roach 20:58:21 * gilbertdeb lifts his feet off the ground. 20:58:26 they creep me out. 20:58:28 this is not helping me much. 20:58:33 haha 20:58:40 so they like water, eh... 20:58:46 gilbert, better not talk about the snakes in our back yard then 20:58:48 i wonder why i see them in my hosue so much 20:58:51 gilbert, or the puma, or bears 20:58:52 ian_p: give them kerosene muhahahahah 20:58:55 snakes is one thing i dont mind 20:59:02 as long as they're not venomous 20:59:05 :) 20:59:08 I do'nt like SNAKES! 20:59:11 We get diamond-backs out here as far as snaes are concerned. 20:59:16 Snakes are awesome!! 20:59:20 lots of cottonmouth in oklahoma. 20:59:21 Just don't mess with one. 20:59:22 goodness no. 20:59:26 thats where i grew up 20:59:33 kc, when i lived in NC, we had a handful of copperheads that hunted frogs in our yard 20:59:50 refresh my memory... diamondback = coperhead? venomous? 20:59:53 If you ever hear a rattle, stop, and slowly start to move backward, the way you came. 20:59:58 most of the snakes we see here in NY are black racers, rat snakes, and a VERY rare rattler 20:59:58 ah, rattle. thats' righ. 20:59:59 so the frogs eat the flies, and the snakes eat the frogs and the .... eat the snakes? 21:00:01 Then walk around where you were going to go. 21:00:20 ian, no, copperheads are FAR more venomous than a rattler 21:00:28 ian, most people overestimate rattlesnakes 21:00:30 yeah, copperheads are bigger too right 21:00:33 they're not that venomous 21:00:35 gilbertdeb: Hawks eat snakes, plus some furry animals like racoons and whatnot. 21:00:46 and ... eat hawks? 21:00:49 if you're in good health, you will almost certainly survive a rattler bite, not true of copperheads tho 21:00:51 Suzanne: understandable, hence that distinctive defense mechanism 21:01:05 gilbertdeb: They are eaten when they die and get scavenged. 21:01:18 cats will eat snakes, if you let them 21:01:19 kc5tja: by flies and such :) 21:01:24 YES, I forgot about that. 21:01:26 kc5tja: then the cycle starts over! 21:01:34 We get a lot of mountain cats ehre. 21:01:40 And coyote. 21:01:42 kc, we have a puma on our land 21:01:48 kc, but i was referring to domestic cats 21:01:48 We just had a pack of 21 come through a few weeks ago. 21:01:56 they will hunt and eat a snake, if you give them the oppurtunity 21:01:56 yeah I've seen a dessert cat battle a cobra on natonal geograpic tv before. 21:02:01 kc5tja: are you in colorado or something? 21:02:18 Suzanne: Not the cat I know. He's deathly afraid of anything tat even looks like a snake. 21:02:24 hahah 21:02:25 ian_p: California. 21:02:33 ian_p: San Diego county 21:02:34 tahts right... 21:02:43 kc, it varies from cat to cat, but when we lived in NC, our neighbor's cat was always hunting the copperheads - crazy bastard 21:02:57 And always won it seems. 21:02:58 :) 21:03:02 kc, they had a problem once, it dragged a half-dead rattler in their house :P 21:03:09 f* 21:03:15 Heheh :) 21:03:35 "Here mom! Look what I brought you! This is a token of my appreciation for everything you did for me! :)" 21:03:57 'oh it is still alive, watchout for that revenge bite!' 21:04:22 ok, wild life that is in our yard... 21:04:36 wild life in my yard are snails. 21:04:42 Well, I think with very, very few exceptions, a snake cannot ever jump farther than its body length. 21:04:44 nothing more that I want to know of. 21:04:45 "...when a rooster came into our yard..." :) 21:04:52 So just make sure you have good distance. :) 21:05:06 kc5tja: really? so avoid anacondas then :D 21:05:11 most exotic thing here is the rabbits i saw last year. i live deep within a huge metro area 21:05:13 4 deer, 1 puma, about 2 dozen eagle, a family of wild turkey, 2 bear, a large possum (4' long) a small possum (1' long), a chipmunk, 3 skunks, and about 10 trillion frogs 21:05:31 nice 21:05:31 http://www.guitaretab.com/g/gibson-bob/6945.htm 21:05:36 We get mostly rabbits and squirrels here. 21:05:44 oh, and a dozen or so squirrels, normally, but i haven't seen them at all this year 21:05:50 Mostly, I see hawks hunting them, but occasionally, I see a condor. 21:05:53 Suzanne: what are you doing living where you live? are you jane goodall's buddy in new york or something? 21:06:02 gilbert, lol 21:06:09 kc, the eagles are fun to watch when hunting 21:06:11 we mostly have dumbass computer users here.. ;) 21:06:14 what kind of eagles? 21:06:17 kc, they have an annoying 'prank' they enjoy playing tho 21:06:18 onetom: haha 21:06:22 ian, mostly golen, a couple of bald 21:06:26 hahah. we get bluejays and snails. 21:06:27 golden, even 21:06:34 and toy dogs on leashes. 21:06:39 mostly piegons and sparrows here. 21:06:42 The two most beautiful eagles there are too. 21:06:47 and the occasional robin... 21:06:48 kc, the eagles have decided that its fun to dive on my window by my PC, and pull up over the house at the last second 21:06:53 and crow 21:06:53 but either my dog or cat even considers eating them 21:07:01 onetom: for shame! 21:07:09 need checks and balances 21:07:21 Crows and ravens are incredibly awesome birds! Damn smart too. 21:07:24 how easier would b the life... :)Ö 21:07:37 hahah 21:07:41 kc5tja: I've had a bluejay come into my kitchen before looking for peanuts. 21:07:42 one of our skunks on our land is pretty 21:07:46 its white with orange stripes 21:07:47 They are so sociable too -- they connive with each other, plan, execute their plan, and fly away with their loots. 21:07:48 it found the bag, and started pecking at it!!! 21:07:57 i really like pigeons, for some reason. 21:08:08 they're probably not that smart at all. 21:08:11 We had a woodpecker fly into our aikido dojo and sit on my sensei's shoulder while he was teaching class. 21:08:16 i have a lot of pigeons :) 21:08:16 It was absolutely hilarious. 21:08:19 no way 21:08:23 Dead serious. 21:08:25 We ahve it on VHS. 21:08:28 i live in the building of the univ 21:08:31 that's awesome 21:08:35 It stayed for the whole class too. :) 21:08:40 Eating pretzels. 21:08:43 and its inner yards r full of pigeons 21:08:45 damn 21:08:50 kc, i've noticed a distinct decline in the 'fear of humans' in most birds over the past decade or so 21:08:52 kc5tja: who gave it pretzels? 21:08:56 your sensei must have been quite relaxed 21:08:59 gilbertdeb: sensei 21:09:09 so they had an agreement? 21:09:16 if i was a bird, i wouldnt go NOWHERE near a human 21:09:18 heheh 21:09:19 i already thought that i should do some optimalizations on them.... 21:09:27 the deer on our land are the same 21:09:28 a pigeon hole 1 ;) 21:09:29 ian_p: me neither. especially small children! 21:09:32 i've gotten within 4' of one of them 21:09:45 hehe 21:09:58 ian_p: Well, it didn't go right to him at first, but after sensei was trying to get rid of the bird, it landed on his shoulder. He finally just gave in, and let it sit on his shoulder for a bit. After a while, when things got more aerobic, he put the bird and some pretzels on the bench on the side of the mat, where the bird stayed and ate. 21:10:18 that's awesome 21:10:31 The bird exhibited play behavior too. 21:10:41 It would occasionally fly onto the mat, and back off again. 21:10:48 was this in a forest? 21:10:59 No, this is in the middle of Vista, California. :) 21:11:05 what vista? 21:11:09 It's a regular city dojo. 21:11:11 buena? 21:11:16 lol, buena vista? 21:11:18 Forther: Vista. 21:11:28 like Buena Vista CO? 21:11:32 No 21:11:36 As in Vista, California. 21:11:37 hey, looks like GI Joe sold for only 200K 21:11:38 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030807/ap_on_re_us/g_i__joe_sale_2 21:11:41 Buena Vista colorado ? 21:11:56 i didn't know there was such a place. 21:12:11 http://www.fourteenernet.com/buenavista/ 21:12:24 one of the pretties places I know of. 21:12:26 that mofo has way too much cash to be spending. 21:12:37 ian_p, I thought DOT bomb buying was over. 21:12:38 LOL 21:12:47 looks like there are still some suckers out there. 21:13:09 At least it went ot a collector, and not some dot.bomb idiot like the Maveriks owner. 21:13:12 Forther: those who got out early. 21:13:20 gilbertdeb, yes. 21:13:35 i wonder how long another such bubble would last. 21:13:37 a year? 21:13:49 gilbertdeb, there will be others. 21:13:51 and bigger. 21:14:02 it is the nature of the market to run in cycles :P 21:14:17 what do you think.. 5 years? 21:14:23 based on germ warfare, antidotes to nuclear exposure, and get-the-hell-off-the-planet travel. 21:14:32 ian, 1-2, and biotech 21:14:53 seems like there will be a massive tech explosion soon 21:14:56 mechanized warefare is the next dot-bomb 21:15:04 ian_p, we are already in one. 21:15:04 making dotcom look irrelavent 21:15:08 true 21:15:09 This is just phase 1 of many. 21:15:13 hard to perspectify 21:15:18 forther, yeah, but most of the market hasn't realised it yet 21:15:20 the growth potential is HUGE. 21:15:36 Forther: growth potential to suck in Suckers??? 21:15:43 I believe biotech as Suzanne says, and then immediately more obvious is mechanized warfare. 21:15:45 it's a crazy time we live in 21:15:53 gilbert, suckers will be taken, yes, but thats part of any tech explosion 21:16:00 ian_p, so was when the motorized carriage was introduced. 21:16:05 gilbert, investers/VC can't tell stupid ideas from good ideas 21:16:11 investors, even 21:16:13 It is just we are learning to deal with change, and compression of time. 21:16:21 Suzanne: awww, all the money they have does not make them that SMART? 21:16:28 gilbert :P 21:16:32 This Depression is one way we are learning to cope with time compression. 21:16:46 Forther: it is not a depression. 21:16:50 Yes it is. 21:16:52 is is a 'not buying' period. 21:16:56 LOL 21:17:05 gilbertdeb, ya and I have some soap on a rope I'll loan ya too. 21:17:15 Forther: georgy has a very 'use keynes advice' approach to the economy. 21:17:19 :) 21:17:22 LOL 21:17:32 gilbert, tbf, there's not much bush could do 21:17:35 monkey boy is what i call him. 21:17:38 uh oh , politics! 21:17:46 it was already set up a LONG time ago 21:17:48 Suzanne: I think he could do some things. 21:17:51 call me when we get to religion 21:17:52 :D 21:17:56 gilbert, afaik, no president/prime-minister in history has ever stopped a depression 21:18:00 Well, he could stop abusing our already ravaged economy. 21:18:08 The Fed couldn't stop it. 21:18:13 Suzanne: JP morgan the man stopped 1 or two depressions in his time. 21:18:14 Presidents have NOTHING to do with economics. 21:18:17 but he could not stop the last big one. 21:18:23 forther, exactly 21:18:26 Forther: I disagree! 21:18:30 forther, neither does most of any government, tbh 21:18:35 they completely have everytihng to do with economics. 21:18:35 They are puppets for the Fed and the Jew based banks (and I'm jewish :) 21:18:43 now if you say economics the academic nonsense, sure. 21:18:51 Forther: Not true. The president has a HUGE influence on the economy. He's commander-in-chief, and when we go to war, or he commissions new weapons development, that all heavily influences the economy. 21:19:09 kc5tja, ok, I take back 'nothing' 21:19:10 :) 21:19:16 kc5tja: not only that, we use FIAT money, and the govt controls that directly. 21:19:22 actually... 21:19:32 ONE prime minister has stopped a depression :) 21:19:35 i wish i had the slightest clue of international politics 21:19:36 but we don't want to go there, seriously 21:19:38 Suzanne: who Maggie? 21:19:40 it boggles my mind 21:19:41 gilbert, no 21:19:43 gilbertdeb: Nothing wrong with that as long as we back it fairly. You don't always need gold. 21:19:54 gilbert, the price his country paid wasn't worth it, though 21:20:11 kc5tja: sure you don't but they can control 1. interest rates, 2. money supply, and fudging with that could mean a lot of trouble. 21:20:24 Suzanne: whose country are we talking about? 21:20:26 tim hitler? 21:20:32 gilbert, thats the one 21:20:33 gilbertdeb: Well, that's Greenspan's department now, not Bush's. 21:20:35 You know what, my roommate came in, and said one way to know he is a geek is that he is so hot, he actually thought of the effectiveness of putting a heatsink on his privates. 21:20:41 (my roomie is wacky!) 21:20:45 Though, they could be collaborators on stuff. 21:20:53 forther, they're alread heatsinks, that's why they're external 21:20:59 already, even 21:21:03 Suzanne :) 21:21:07 tim hitler? 21:21:11 Suzanne, yes, I know, but apparently his gubbernaculum wasn't relaxed enough. 21:21:21 ian_p: don't ask. I saw that on jay leno sometime ago on jaywalking. 21:21:25 forther, tell him to stop looking at porn 24/7 then 21:21:36 is that adolf? 21:21:45 phone brb 21:21:45 he was just behind me in his underware, and I said dude, you're too weird. 21:21:47 ian_p: yes. someone said his name was timothy. 21:21:53 ah 21:22:15 he left the room. 21:22:22 ian, he's the only 'leader' that has ever, to my knowledge, gotten a country out of depression, but the price was too high 21:22:24 l8r, thanks for letting me share my personal life too :) 21:22:25 but Suzanne inflation does stop eventually, you just have to be the leader when it stops :) 21:22:52 Suzanne, he was an effective leader, but also completely insane and you don't kill people en masse to meet an end. 21:22:59 forther, indeed 21:23:14 Forther: bah, he needed to. the military expenditure was great for the economy. 21:23:20 kept people's mind off his madness :D 21:23:42 i read excerpts from mein kampf, randomly.. disturbing... 21:24:07 ian_p: the guy was a very poor writer, but you have to agree, he warned everyone he was gonna go nutz. 21:24:41 i dunno if it was poorly written as much as absolutely insane. but i guess that qualifies 21:25:04 ian_p: he wasn't a very good writer of his native language. 21:25:24 the other thing about hitler, is, he's the best evidence that 'the president should have served in conflict' isn't a good argument :P 21:25:34 Hitler should never be forgotten, and you ask folks who today is the pres, they don't konw, or Prime Minister, or whatever, nobody has a clue who Hitler was and how it all came to be, only 70+ years ago. 21:25:51 The frightening part is we have a generation that is being raised without any knowledge of how to avoid history. 21:25:52 wow, it was that long ago. 21:25:53 forther, germany has to take part of that blame 21:25:59 1932 21:26:02 Forther: I think the causes of the problems in germany should NOT be forgotten either. 21:26:03 forther, germany has tried everything they can to erase him from history 21:26:05 I think is when he started his power march. 21:26:15 the sorts of things the country was going through to make him come to be has been mostly neglected!!! 21:26:19 Germany is ashamed, as they should be. 21:26:28 They were complacent, just like americans are todya. 21:26:31 Forther: england and france SHOULD be ashamed. 21:26:39 forther, banning mention of him outright, is NOT the solution to that shame 21:26:39 I say US has the very potential to become 1930 Germany. 21:26:53 forther, it was illegal to mention his name in the press *AT ALL* until the late 70s, from what i recall 21:27:15 forther, that is why the hitler diaries (albeit fake) had to be smuggled out of germany 21:27:22 Suzanne: it is all very one sided, people are forgetting what happened in germany ater ww1. 21:27:25 I totally agree, ignorance and more is not the solution. 21:28:08 that is the cause of most of the problems today, i think it could be safely asserted 21:28:17 ian_p: what is? ignorance? 21:28:45 in the US and most of the 'civilized' work you have a training of the masses to ignore reality. We are doomed at this rate to repeat the same civil and religeous attrocities that we saw in WWII and also in other countries struggling to become a world power. 21:28:50 I think it is the ability of our leaders to make us do the 'them vs us' thing and to make us thing 'if your'e not for us, you're against us'. 21:29:05 gilbertdeb, I agree. 21:29:23 once you get that going, you can launch ANY war on earth. 21:29:25 in the US we continue to believe at the behest of the minorities a guilt about being white or black. 21:29:27 we good, them bad. 21:29:40 They want equality, but continue to remind us all, including themselves that they are different. 21:29:52 yeah 21:30:03 Forther: but was it not the difference that was most emphasized through out their histories? 21:30:08 war is economy as someone said, and it brings in money. 21:30:11 gilbertdeb: yeah, but that's a perfect example of ignorance 21:30:13 The more you dwell on the past, the more it will consume you. 21:30:15 be they jews, or kosacks, or tibetans or blacks? 21:30:22 kc5tja, exactly. 21:30:23 kc5tja: word 21:30:24 Germany may be ashamed, but it must not let the past hinder its progress. 21:30:26 gilbertdeb, yes. 21:30:40 like when i see people of one culture talking about their culture 21:30:44 It's attempt to erase Hitler's actions from history is BAD, because that is precisely the type of behavior that will cause a repeat action. 21:30:44 kc5tja: bah I say england and france should be ashamed!!!! 21:30:47 and how it is important because such and such 21:30:49 ver another 21:30:51 over 21:30:53 it's just sad 21:30:54 gilbertdeb: Yes, they should be too. 21:31:15 kc5tja: they were the extortionists that helped set off the hyper inflation in germany!!! 21:31:31 But England acknowledged Hitler as a superior leader (Churchill regarded Hitler very highly). 21:31:32 unfortunately, timothy attacked the local bankers instead. 21:31:41 France should be ashamed no more, they had finally a GREAT Le Tour this year, with a Frenchman winning the final stage, and Lance Incorporated showing that US is better than Frenchies on the road bikes :) 21:31:42 Meanwhile, Germany is trying to forget he ever existed. 21:32:14 kc5tja: totally wrong attitude, it is much simpler to hold a funeral and let it go. 21:32:33 gilbertdeb: Uhhh...hello? That is precisely what I'm advocating here? 21:32:36 Its easier to give birth than to resurrect the dead :) 21:32:39 Germany is NOT letting go. That is my point. 21:32:43 heheheh 21:33:00 kc5tja: the world is not letting germany let go. 21:33:14 but germany builds better cars when they don't let go. 21:33:15 gilbertdeb: What do you mean? 21:33:34 Forther: Too bad the Germans couldn't master their own most revolutionary engine, though. 21:33:41 forther, germany built better cars before, during AND after hitler :P 21:33:55 kc5tja: they continue to pay repatriations, and everytime some nanogenarian is caught hiding somewhere, they have to drag him out and start the trials all over again. 21:34:07 kc, the rotary engine ? 21:34:14 Suzanne: Yup. 21:34:24 kc5tja: I think diesel was more interesting. 21:34:30 kc, thought it was english in origin, just BMW 'perfected' it, as much as it was perfected 21:34:39 Suzanne: no, wankel 21:34:41 gilbertdeb: How? It's just the Otto-cycle engine with really high compression ratios. 21:34:45 pronounced Vankel. 21:35:07 kc5tja: in that you can feed it things other than diesel fuel. 21:35:21 Suzanne: Sorry; Dr-Ing. Felix Wankel was German, and he invented it in Germany. Wankel rotary engine was perfected by Mazda in 1963, having gotten the metallurgy for the apex seals down pat. 21:35:27 BMW had *nothing* to do with the rotary engine. 21:35:49 kc, BMW motorbikes used it more effectively than Mazda :) 21:35:51 gilbertdeb: You keep saying that, and it's just not true. 21:36:01 The fuel for a diesel MUST be a fuel oil. 21:36:02 kc5tja: it is true! cooking oil! 21:36:06 It cannot run on arbitrary fuel. 21:36:11 FUEL OIL 21:36:15 kc5tja: I didn't say *any* oil. 21:36:18 OIL OIL OIL. Always, it's an OIL. 21:36:19 or *any* fuel! 21:36:23 Yes you did. 21:36:42 kc5tja: in that you can feed it things other than diesel fuel. 21:36:45 Suzanne: What planet are you on? 21:36:50 'other than'. 21:37:07 No other manufacturer has an engine up-time that Mazda has. 21:37:20 Mazda NEVER snapped an apex seal under normal load conditions. 21:38:04 And by 1978, the RX-7's 12A engine was the most technologically advanced rotary of its kind. They were the only engines warrented to 150,000 miles. 21:38:14 * kc5tja notes his 12A in his 1st gen died after 262,000 miles. 21:38:49 Moreover, nowhere in my book on the Wankel's history is BMW even listed. Not even as a footnote. 21:39:16 Audi was mentioned a couple of times, though. As were Mercedes-Benz and Deimler. 21:39:26 kc, *shrug* the BMW's with rotarys were good enough to make many US PDs buy them 21:39:27 And even GM -- 1970 Chevy Corvette was to use a 4-rotor Wankel. 21:39:41 vankel. 21:40:03 And nwo the RX-8 is out. And I got to test-drive it. 21:40:08 That is a sweet, sweet, sweet car. 21:40:16 BMW can go shove itself -- the '8 kills it. :) 21:40:31 so thats what you want for christmas, huh? 21:40:34 kc, well, come on, we're talking about cars vs bikes :) 21:40:37 250HP naturally aspirated rotary with a redline at 9000 RPM (tranny limited too; the engine is rated for 10500). 21:41:23 tranny == transgendered right? 21:41:42 what is it doing in an engine? 21:41:48 gilbert, i worry about how your mind works :P 21:41:49 gilbertdeb: Is your question serious? 21:41:55 :P 21:42:07 j/k 21:42:09 1.3L displacement too. MMMmmmmmmm.... :) 21:42:17 * kc5tja loves the 13B... :) 21:42:18 gimme a diesel engine. 21:42:21 just 1. 21:42:22 thanks. 21:42:29 gilbertdeb: Diesels are nice. I like Diesels too. 21:42:42 But here's another wonderful and underappreciated technology -- Miller-cycle engines. 21:42:46 some say they pollute, but just as much as all other cars :) 21:42:53 They're every bit as efficient as Diesels, and without the nasty emissions. 21:43:03 gilbertdeb: No, worse. They produce particulates. 21:43:03 kc5tja: which vehicles have them again? 21:43:11 gilbertdeb: Toyota Prius and Mazda Millenia 21:43:26 kc5tja: all freight trains in the US are diesel powered *shrug* 21:43:33 gilbertdeb: So? 21:43:35 all LARGE trucks are diesel powered too. 21:43:41 gilbertdeb: Like I said, UNDERAPPRECIATED. 21:43:46 a puny diesel car isn't gonna much any of those . 21:43:58 kc5tja: I was referring to the particulates of diesel. 21:44:08 *match 21:44:10 gilbertdeb: Dude, are you in any way, shape, or form, getting anything at all that I'm saying? :) It seems to me you're not. 21:44:21 re: reference. 21:44:25 gilbert, actually, there's a fair difference between a train diesel engine, and a car/truck diesel 21:44:34 gilbert, the train engine will likely be running near 'zero load' 21:44:39 Suzanne: one uses diesel fuel and the other ... 21:44:40 gilbertdeb: That's like saying Windows is good because everyone uses it. 21:44:52 kc5tja: nah not at all. 21:44:59 gilbertdeb: That's EXACTLY what you're saying. 21:45:08 "Big trucks use Diesels, so Diesels must be better." 21:45:12 gilbert, the difference is that the train engine isn't on a direct torque train to the movement 21:45:24 what I'm saying is that if those giants can pollute, my little toy will be nothing in comparison :D 21:45:29 Miller-cycle engines are 35% thermo efficient - just like Diesels. 21:45:33 gilbert, the engine in a train is running near 'zero load', it just has to turn a alternator 21:45:35 And they run on pump gas. 21:45:51 ack. 21:45:56 Suzanne: Hardly zero-load. 21:46:02 kc, i said 'near' 21:46:03 Ever try to turn an alternator by hand? :) 21:46:15 kc, compared to a engine in a direct drive situation 21:46:21 When the alternator is pulling power for a 1HP load, the alternator will look like a 1HP load to the engine. 21:46:34 Suzanne: Direct-drive is more efficient by far. 21:46:34 Suzanne: I see what you mean, they mostly crank up the generator and run off that. 21:46:48 But in a train, direct drive isn't an advantage. 21:48:01 The nice thing about such serial-hybrids is its engineering simplicity. 21:48:18 kc5tja: you mean like the cray vs a mac ;) 21:48:20 * kc5tja was thinking of making a serial hybrid gokart once. 21:48:34 anyone have an extensive FORTH book collection? 21:48:45 Forther: Nope. I used to have a copy of Starting Forth, but I can't find it now. 21:48:57 Forther: which book are you looking for? 21:49:15 gilbertdeb, ones that I dont have. 21:49:16 :) 21:49:21 hehehe. like? 21:49:33 loeliger, brodie ? 21:49:40 I'll let you know when I list the library, I want to find another hardcore collector. 21:49:45 I have brodie's stuff. 21:49:46 Oh, I do have a copy of Scientific Forth too, by Noble. 21:49:52 kc5tja: you do? 21:49:54 whats it like? 21:49:55 Yup. 21:49:57 Boring. 21:49:58 :) 21:50:01 Forther: what about Loeliger. 21:50:04 It reads like a math text. :) 21:50:04 kc5tja: no pictures? 21:50:19 I have like 20+ forth books, I will have to list them sometime. 21:50:23 gilbertdeb: Lots of pictures, if you're into linear algebra, equation solvers, and such. 21:50:37 kc5tja: nah, the starting forth pictures sort. 21:50:42 nope 21:50:45 bah. 21:50:56 Those types of pictures won't fit in a scientific publication anyway. 21:50:56 i think we need a new forth, and that forth needs to be the best of them all. 21:51:02 rk ;) 21:51:12 kc5tja, those SF photos were GREAT! 21:51:17 kc5tja: ha har until you see the cartoon guides! 21:51:19 Yes, they were. 21:51:21 forth is a fun system, and it deserves a fun approach. 21:51:34 But they won't work in an academic community, which is where Noble's book is targeted. 21:51:39 photos = drawings. 21:51:39 Forther: check out the forum mentioned in the topic. 21:51:45 Forther: i posted an idea 21:52:01 kc5tja: academic communities are usually 'meh'. 21:52:07 gilbertdeb: Deal with it. 21:52:08 :) 21:52:13 hehehe. 21:52:25 lets give em cartoons! 21:52:26 --- join: CrowKilr (~cacaboudi@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3653572.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 21:52:33 I wish I could draw those cartoons!!! 21:52:47 gilbertdeb: They're not that hard to draw. They're basically line scribblings. :) 21:52:59 I have the cartoon history of the universe and the cartoon guide to computers. 21:53:02 really nice. 21:53:03 I have a couple copies of the TIL book. 21:53:08 gilbertdeb, really? 21:53:10 gilbertdeb: Those are excellent books. 21:53:12 I would like ot read them. 21:53:20 * rk can draw 21:53:23 * kc5tja read the Cartoon Guide to the Environment -- awesome, awesome, awesome. 21:53:24 Forther: they're quite popular 21:53:28 scan them and put em on the net 21:53:28 * rk tries to think of a cool forthish logo 21:53:29 they sound cool. 21:53:49 rk, no need for forthish logo, already done. 21:53:59 Forther: they're by larry goonick I believe. 21:54:02 lemme double check. 21:54:06 Forther: a new one, a funny one 21:54:13 Forther: a better one 21:54:23 gonick 21:54:26 To fully reflect the Forth philosophy, the Forth logo should consist of merely a dot, if that. 21:54:26 http://www.larrygonick.com/ 21:54:33 I agre. 21:54:37 '.' 21:54:38 :) 21:54:40 or a colon 21:54:48 the type of colon you type. 21:54:49 It is minimal, it is compact, and it packs maximum semantic content into a single symbol. :D 21:55:09 anyway i came to tell you about the NVRAM Wakeup projet at FreshMeat 21:55:12 a Forth slogan has been found. 21:55:14 * kc5tja can see the website now -- http://..com 21:55:14 hehe great description 21:55:15 :D 21:55:29 is that called /. dup? 21:55:42 supposedly one can write some bits in nvram and the computers wake up let say in the middle of the night LOL 21:55:56 Forth -- Minimal, Compact, Different. :) 21:55:58 or /. dup roll2 dup? 21:56:04 Hell, I forgot. 21:56:10 kc5tja: You. Forth. The machine. Simplicity :) 21:56:15 CrowKilr, LOL 21:56:18 I really like that one and I'm gonna steal it many times. 21:56:21 Take out The -- too wordy. 21:56:27 You. Forth. Machine. Simplicity. 21:56:28 hehhee. 21:57:13 * kc5tja notes the fact that the slogan consists of precisely four words too. :D 21:57:32 And the most important aspect is ... the fourth word. :) 21:57:47 does anyone have the .pdf of this guy's Larry Gonick's books? 21:58:00 What did Larry Gonick write again? 21:58:01 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 21:58:07 re a7r 21:58:10 http://www.larrygonick.com/html/pub/pub.html 21:58:13 tons of stuff. 21:58:15 cartoon based. 21:58:28 I think I'll get his books. 21:58:28 Forther: and very entertaining. 21:58:35 I'm sure they are, I already am sold. 21:58:41 oh my, a breeze 21:58:43 I will pick them all up, sounds great for fun reading. 21:58:44 thats nice 21:58:53 Ahh, yeah. I was thinking he wrote something about Forth there for a minute. :) 21:58:57 Suzanne, did your husband flatulate? 21:59:05 forther, lol 21:59:11 ewww Forther! 21:59:16 ewww ewww ewwwwww! 21:59:19 :) lol 21:59:27 I'm a little tired, sorry :) 21:59:33 I'm am a sick bastard, so expect it now. 21:59:53 kc5tja: have you read the cartoon guide to (non) communication? 22:00:09 No 22:00:20 I just noticed it. 22:00:38 btw, what does .4 do ? 22:00:39 * rk is gonna make a little forth drawing 22:00:40 Larry's work was influenced by early underground master cartoonist Joel Beck. 22:00:56 Suzanne: .4 ? 22:01:01 gilbert, yeah 22:01:03 http://www.lambiek.net/beck_joel.htm 22:01:05 try the following: see .4 22:01:12 gilbert, i did, its about 50 lines :P 22:01:17 i had an idea for a copy paste mechanism and at the same time a bizarre compilation technique a moment ago, big deal to say im thinking about large stacks, data and return 22:01:21 gilbert, and i'm too overheated to work it out :P 22:01:26 * kc5tja wants to build a Stirling engine. 22:01:33 Suzanne: whose forth are you using? 22:01:35 with small tokenized source one could copy source and execute it 22:01:40 gilbert, gforth 22:01:45 and using push push push for the return stack 22:01:50 Suzanne, what about pfe, have you tried it? 22:01:51 * kc5tja thinks he's gotten a decent method of building the power piston assembly, but it's the displacer assembly that is escaping me at the moment. 22:01:59 forther, yes, it doesn't build on ppc based machines 22:02:01 one could maybe enhance speed 22:02:07 forther, well, it does, but it crashes, lots :P 22:02:17 bitwise issues? 22:02:34 ending stuff? 22:02:39 endian 22:02:40 forther, dunno, could be endian, or it could be embedded x86 somewhere or something stupid 22:02:40 :) 22:02:46 oh 22:02:56 either way, it requires a kill -9 when it crashes 22:02:58 well, there are a bunch of mac forth systems, why gforth? 22:03:08 free? 22:03:12 forther, because gforth runs on all of my machines 22:03:20 ah 22:03:40 kc5tja: yoh 22:03:47 I am starving and it is time to go to bed. 22:03:50 Wouldn't it be neat to have all the knowledge about FORTH from all these nice folks in ONE brain? :) 22:03:56 Suzanne, Forther I hope you come back again :D 22:04:04 gilbertdeb, later dude! 22:04:05 Forther: I'd be happy with Moore's brain. 22:04:08 night gilbert 22:04:08 vms isn't being nice to me. 22:04:11 ciao * 22:04:15 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Client Exiting") 22:04:19 im off to bed, welcome forther and suzanne! Hope youlll enjoy the stay! 22:04:24 thanks. 22:04:28 --- quit: CrowKilr ("bouyaaaa!") 22:04:29 it was fun, Suzanne is cool! 22:04:33 and so are the other cool people. 22:04:34 Yep. 22:04:35 :) 22:04:46 later dude/ttes 22:04:46 But not the uncool people. THey're uncool. 22:04:52 uncool is so UNcool. 22:04:59 Like, yeah.... 22:05:02 ;D 22:05:11 (Hey, I'm from California, I have a license to do that!) 22:08:32 can I flood here for a second with a script? 22:08:49 Depends on size. 22:08:58 If it's too long, the chanserv will auto-kick you. 22:09:15 * kc5tja doesn't know the line limit though. 22:09:28 I think 16 lines. 22:09:33 for y in 01 02 03 ; do mkdir 20$y ; ( cd 20$y ; for m in 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 ; do mkdir $m ; (cd $m ; for d in 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 ; do wget http://www.latimes.com/includes/ramirez/ramirez_20$y$m$d.gif ; done ) ; done ) ; done 22:09:36 :) 22:09:50 copy and paste that crap into a shell (requires wget) and enjoy the political cartoons 22:10:04 I know, it is bash, no seq support. 22:10:05 sorry. 22:10:06 Heheh -- tomorrow. I'm in daydream mode right now. 22:10:16 seq? 22:10:27 * kc5tja uses Linux -- no worries. 22:10:29 I think ksh has seq(1,X) 22:10:33 ahh 22:10:39 something like that, gives you 1,X 22:10:43 1..X 22:10:44 :) 22:10:50 I don't use ksh or csh. 22:11:01 Well, it's possible to write a script to do that in Python or Perl 22:11:19 for y in `seq 01 12`; do .... ; done etc 22:11:19 I'm pretty sure I could write something in bash to do the equivalent of seq 22:11:56 but again, you are depending on the shell to give you the seq. 22:12:07 anyway, enjoy the cartoons, they are funny. 22:12:11 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:12:15 Oh, and not all requests in teh script will be fulfilled. 22:12:24 hi 22:12:32 He only published part of the first year in 2001 with latimes and only on weekedays I think. 22:12:39 Serg_Penguin, hello, and good night. 22:13:07 * kc5tja nods 22:13:30 re Serg_Penguin 22:14:02 yesterday i bought an old jump-mirror camera ;) 22:14:27 for ~17$, all mechanical, no even exponometer ;)) 22:14:56 How does a jump-mirror camera compare to a single-lens reflex camera? 22:15:13 I think they might be the same, but I'm not sure. 22:15:28 (jump-mirror makes more sense anyway, though I'd use "flip mirror" to describe it :) ) 22:15:51 maybe, the same 22:16:00 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:16:37 for me, "flip" is turn over completely 22:16:44 to flip a page 22:17:05 car flipped over in a hard turn .. etc 22:17:05 * kc5tja likes SLC cameras. They're my favorite kind. 22:17:12 For the same reason I like manual transmission cars. 22:17:24 SLR ? 22:17:32 Yeah, sorry. 22:17:35 Typo., 22:17:36 'a[ 22:17:36 gotta agree 22:17:37 sa['kdv ['soeifanlsid 22:17:42 * kc5tja can't type tonight. :( 22:17:56 my Canon T90 and my Olympus OM1n are unbeatable :) 22:18:09 My dad has am OM-5 22:18:15 I love that camera. :D 22:18:21 kc, the OM2 was the last good one, from my point of view 22:18:24 We used to take so many astrophotos with that camera, it's not funny. 22:18:33 i got Zenit-W, from 70-s if not 60-s 22:18:33 See, there I go again. 22:18:35 OM-1. 22:18:37 last fully-manual that could take 45-minute astrophotos without relying on a battery 22:18:57 * kc5tja probably is just tired. 22:19:00 serg, i had a zenit-W 22:19:19 serg, and i'm sorry to say, they're mostly junk :/ 22:19:31 nice to see u, Suzanne ;) 22:19:38 Yeah, but for $17.... 22:19:38 :) 22:19:38 the soviets had optics down, but the mechanics are too flimsy 22:19:46 i like clever, bright girls ;))) 22:19:59 Yes, if you can get your hands on a Maksutov-Cassegrain telescope, do it!! :) 22:20:25 kc, i have a SCT :P 22:20:29 Serg_Penguin: so do i! 22:20:33 2 of them, to be precise 22:20:34 I have a small 3" Newtonian. 22:20:39 SCT ??? 22:20:44 a C8, and a Meade LX-200 10" 22:20:47 Schmidt-Cassegrain Telescope 22:21:11 * kc5tja wants to build a horse-shoe mount for his 3" though, because the German equatorial mount has HUGE backlash. Totally unstable. 22:21:25 yeah.. i remember what is Newton, Cassegrain, Maksutov.... but what is Schmidt ??? 22:21:49 Serg_Penguin: Similar to Maksutov, but using spherical optics instead. 22:21:56 serg, Schmitt and Makustov are two seperate ways of folding the optical path 22:21:56 ok 22:22:00 Requires a more complex corrector lense. 22:22:15 * kc5tja would also like a Schief-speigler some day. :D 22:22:23 Mak uses a curved front lens that has a silvered dot on the back of it - cheap, easy, and reliable, typically soviet :) 22:22:42 Suzanne: But superior optical quality. 22:22:48 kc, depends on what its used for 22:22:50 The silver dot is front-surface aluminization. 22:22:50 here in RU, Rubinar-1000 lens was produced in graet quantity 22:23:01 kc, iirc the transmission is lower, but the resolution is higher, generally 22:23:14 Suzanne: Yup. Resolution was Maksutov's claim to fame. 22:23:21 Mak-Cass, 1000mm F 22:23:27 kc, so Mak-Cassegrains and Mak-Newts end up being great for planetary, where transmission isn't a big deal 22:23:36 * kc5tja nods 22:23:44 but for deep-sky, a SCT will generally perform a bit better, because transmission matters 22:23:53 Newtonians are best for those. :D 22:23:57 yet, iirc, Hubble is a Mak 22:24:13 Well, no atmosphere to bother with either. :D 22:24:13 but then, thats an issue of scale, probably 22:24:35 if you're building a BIG folded scope, you're going to want an cheap/easy process 22:24:50 And the resolution it has is a nice bonus. :D 22:25:14 * Serg_Penguin is more interested in a paparazzi zoom lens 22:25:19 kc, true, and it has the ultimate platform, and can image for hours at a time if needed, so transmission isn't important 22:27:18 * Serg_Penguin would like to nest on a high building like sniper at crowdy place, and look for funny moments 22:27:32 Photosniper. 22:27:37 yeah ! 22:27:53 Beat you to the punch. :D 22:28:22 serg. a ST80 will make a nice paparazzi lens :P 22:28:27 i have one idea for great photo series: "Sex in a city: men, dogs, birds" 22:28:43 not xxx, but mating behavior 22:28:47 and no, i don't mean smalltalk-80 :P 22:29:12 anyway, film i was watching has finished, so shower, then bed.... 22:29:28 night 22:29:34 night 22:29:43 i think i'll be beaten not at sniper point, but at exhibition, by stupid moralists ;(( 22:29:46 nite 22:29:54 Yeah 22:30:39 and after that, i wanna make a movie: 22:31:05 'seasoned' cynical boy teaches a young silly romantic girl 22:31:24 about something in our nature ;))) 22:31:35 or visa-versa 22:32:02 old cynical woman - silly romantic boy 22:32:17 * kc5tja isn't into that kind of film. 22:32:24 on a high building, w/ two telescopes: 22:32:25 Not moral, but just uninteresting to me. 22:33:28 one aimed at place there youth meets and mates, other - at a trash yard w/ dogs 22:34:02 ;))) 22:34:21 good way to broom out some moral bugs from the minds ;)) 22:34:56 uninteresting ? why ? 22:35:06 I'm just not interested. 22:35:14 you know all, or dont wanna know nothing ? 22:35:25 None of the above -- I don't care. 22:36:31 ok 22:36:50 so whadda u think, what exposure error modern films do forgive ? 22:37:11 I don't understand that last question. :) 22:38:17 say, we set exposure for half-sunny weather, yeah ? 22:38:29 ok 22:40:31 what should happen to light to make picture inacceptable ? 22:40:38 I don't know 22:40:41 hard thunderstorm clouds ? 22:41:26 ok, i'll rephrase 22:41:38 say, we tuned all OK 22:42:07 I don't know the answer to your question. I haven't done photography in over 10 years. 22:42:13 ok ! 22:42:24 All I remember is the "sunny-16" rule -- fast film on a sunny day = F/16. :) 22:45:02 heh, w/ e-motor camera you can set hole to 16, lens to hyper-focus, and shoot changin exposure by shutter speed 22:45:40 but on full-mechanical, it's tiresome to mess w/ shutter-speed dial, and probably wears out mechanism 22:46:11 so i gotta control exposure by hole, so changing sharpness depth ;(( 22:46:23 * kc5tja nods 22:47:42 anyway, i shot 7 frames at wild guess ;)) 22:47:49 Hehe :D 22:48:41 on a film box (200 ISO), i found a stupid diagram 22:48:59 it sayd "500/4" for mild clowdy 22:49:20 so i shot w/ 500/4 and 125/16 22:50:17 * kc5tja forgot all the rules of thumb for that kind of stuff. 22:50:59 happily, lens has sharp-depth scale 22:51:25 at hole 8, range is 3.5m to space ;)) 22:52:36 practically, camera-obscura 22:53:46 :) 23:22:28 * Serg_Penguin is searching web madly 23:27:14 * kc5tja has to go to bed. 23:27:19 * kc5tja is falling asleep at the keyboard. 23:27:29 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.07