00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.08.02
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00:20:33 <kc5tja> Clearly, I'm not booting off of CD then...
00:20:34 * kc5tja sighs
00:29:15 <kc5tja> YAY!  IT BOOTS!
00:29:19 <kc5tja> FINALLY!
00:29:23 * kc5tja does the happy dance!
00:30:41 <kc5tja> A frigging comedy of errors -- BIOS was sorely misconfigured (maybe its CMOS battery is running out/has run out?), a couple of convenient dd invokations from /dev/zero to strategic places in various partitions, and a little lilo.conf magic, and it finally boots!
01:57:02 <kc5tja> OK, going to bed.
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12:46:22 <thin> kc5tja: yeah I noticed it was down several days ago, but I was hoping the problem would solve itself.  it hasn't, so i've emailed the sys admin
12:47:03 <thin> interestingly, http://forum.forth.bespin.org still works..
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12:55:37 <TreyB> Does anyone know if FIGUK will have their monthly IRC chat today?
12:56:33 <thin> i don't know for sure, but i think that would be right
13:02:03 <TreyB> The web page says today.
13:12:02 <kc5tja> hey
13:12:39 * kc5tja is having all sorts of fun administering a Slackware Linux installation.
13:16:55 <kc5tja> bbiab -- recrimping a 100-base-T cable.
13:29:12 <kc5tja> back
13:29:20 <thin> kc5tja: slackware is always fun :D
13:29:28 <kc5tja> Yes.
13:29:39 <kc5tja> It is now my company's official distribution format for Linux.
13:29:41 <thin> i love the rpm2tar :)
13:29:50 * kc5tja hasn't had a chance to use it just yet.
13:30:05 <kc5tja> Though I think I might end up using it with some of the RPMs for things like OpenOffice and whatnot.
13:30:11 <thin> well I tend not to compile anything
13:30:19 <thin> if I don't have to
13:30:25 <kc5tja> Likewise.
13:30:32 <kc5tja> Not, unless, I need the speed, which I rarely do.
13:32:36 <thin> yeah I don't need the speed, my 133 mhz pentium with 32 megs of ram has more speed than I could ever use! :P
13:33:46 <thin> altho if I want X windows, it seems like I need to install an older version, i.e. one that doesn't require more than 4 megs of ram heh
13:34:52 <thin> well... the last time i had linux installed was when the comp had 16 megs of ram
13:35:08 <thin> technically it has 128 megs of ram but the mobo is so old it only uses 32 heh
13:36:53 <thin> neways, when it was 16 and i was installing linux & X, i was pissed off with X because it wanted more than 16, which is frickin ridiculous.  so i started looking around for older distros and i found one targetted to 486s with 4 megs of ram or less, and tried that out, but i didn't like it for some reason that i forget..
13:37:03 <thin> probably because it wasn't slackware :P
13:37:25 <thin> then i declared i would build my own linux from scratch and proceeded to procrastinate on that :P
13:39:33 <thin> anyways it pisses me off when software requires more than 4 megs of ram.. 4 megs of ram is frickin huge
13:40:03 <TreyB> That all depends on the data set and what you want to do to it.
13:59:21 <kc5tja> Well, if you're editing photographs, then yes, hundreds of megs of RAM is handy.
13:59:32 <kc5tja> But for just a graphical desktop environment, 4MB was way overkill.
13:59:51 <kc5tja> AmigaOS got away with a full GUI and multitasking in 256KB when it was first introduced, and let's not forget the original Mac, which had 128KB.
13:59:51 <TreyB> The framebuffer for your desktop may take more than 4MB :-)
14:00:03 <kc5tja> The framebuffer resides in the video card's memory though.
14:09:37 <thin> anybody happen to know which state/province has the area code 740 ?
14:11:00 <thin> hm, i guess its ohio
14:17:05 <kc5tja> Not sure.
14:20:33 <kc5tja> So far, this customer has acquired a $540 bill.
14:20:56 <kc5tja> Between that and next week's unemployment check, I just might be able to cover my rent.
14:21:01 <kc5tja> That's assuming said customer actually pays the bill.
14:22:56 <kc5tja> FreeDOS's harddrive formatting code is buggier than a fresh, steaming pile of shit on a hot summer day.
14:23:13 <kc5tja> Every cylinder, it reports back, "errors detected", but fails to tell me what errors it's found.
14:23:19 <kc5tja> Moreover, it doesn't stop -- it just keeps going.
14:23:38 <kc5tja> It's about 37% complete now on a 2GB partition, and it's taking absolutely forever because it's constantly retrying.
14:24:08 <thin> what are you doing with FreeDOS?
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14:29:33 <kc5tja> I have to install DOS so that my client can run PC/Geos (aka NewDeal Office).
14:29:45 <kc5tja> The Linux installation is primarily for my own benefit, not his.
14:29:59 <kc5tja> It just makes maintenance easier.
14:30:02 <gilbertdeb> I was just reading about the netbsd kernel.
14:30:11 <gilbertdeb> it contains 150K lines of code!!!
14:30:13 <gilbertdeb> :|
14:30:59 <gilbertdeb> thats app 3000 pages!
14:33:10 <kc5tja> Linux has it beat.
14:33:15 <kc5tja> About 660,000 lines.  :D
14:33:20 <gilbertdeb> :???
14:33:32 <kc5tja> Remember that not all of those lines are compiled though.
14:33:51 <kc5tja> A lot of those lines are surrounded by #ifdef/#endif lines.
14:33:56 <kc5tja> Lots of conditional compilation.
14:34:13 <kc5tja> The number of lines compiled for a particular platform is probably at least a factor of two less.
14:34:20 <gilbertdeb> and every single one of those were typed in?
14:34:22 * kc5tja would like to see some actual numbers in that regard though.
14:34:28 <kc5tja> Yes
14:34:57 <kc5tja> Not all by one person, obviously.
14:35:02 <gilbertdeb> yes indeed.
14:35:11 <gilbertdeb> but that is just so freaking MUCH!
14:35:16 <gilbertdeb> does it really have to be that large?
14:35:39 <kc5tja> To handle the configuration requirements of the PC architecture, I'm afraid it might.
14:35:50 <kc5tja> sockets is a very general purpose library, and has to handle all sorts of entworking devices.
14:35:56 <gilbertdeb> so it is the hardware then?
14:35:58 <kc5tja> Which brings us to the device drivers themselves.
14:36:04 <kc5tja> A little of both.
14:36:10 <kc5tja> The hardware is complex, so the drivers are complex.
14:36:20 <kc5tja> But the driver interface is a software issue, and that can probably be simplified somewhat.
14:36:36 <gilbertdeb> does it all really have to be THIS complex?
14:36:38 <kc5tja> Then there's the purely software-related issues.
14:36:55 <kc5tja> And still be Unix?
14:37:01 <kc5tja> I'm afraid so.
14:37:05 <gilbertdeb> I'm beginning to think those who had to deal with the pdp's and the cdc's etc had it easy.
14:37:06 <kc5tja> Unix isn't a simple environment anymore.
14:37:16 <kc5tja> Yes.
14:37:32 <kc5tja> You might say that.  :)
14:37:49 <gilbertdeb> so why are we made to learn these infernal machines :)
14:37:55 <kc5tja> It's quite possible to create a nice, small, POSIX-compliant operating system.
14:38:03 <gilbertdeb> i'm also suspecting there is a second system factor involved.
14:38:07 <kc5tja> QNX is just such an example.
14:38:32 <gilbertdeb> also minix.
14:38:41 <kc5tja> Exokernels promise even further reductions in complexity due to the nice, *wonderfully* clean division between protection and policy, which happens to map quite nicely along the user/kernel mode boundary.
14:38:58 <kc5tja> Both QNX and Minix are microkernels -- did you notice that?  :)
14:39:12 <kc5tja> Here's a hint: microkernels, while they may sacrifice performance overall, are smaller, and much easier to maintain.
14:39:24 <kc5tja> This is why Dolphin was to be a microkernel originally.
14:39:27 <kc5tja> Now, I'm thinking exokernel.
14:39:40 <kc5tja> And Forth will be at the heart of it.
14:39:52 <kc5tja> Especially now that I know I can compete admirably with GCC with FS/Forth.
14:40:14 <gilbertdeb> are you serious?
14:40:18 <gilbertdeb> whats giving you the edge?
14:41:03 <thin> GCC sucks duh :P
14:41:31 <gilbertdeb> but gcc is quite an effort!
14:42:07 <thin> so?
14:42:49 <gilbertdeb> you think it can be made to suck less?
14:44:14 <gilbertdeb> but I've noticed there aren't really that many different compilers around ...
14:44:24 <gilbertdeb> as opposed to the number of interpreters that exist.
14:44:48 <gilbertdeb> the logical choice always seems to be c or asm or some other variation there-of.
14:46:04 <kc5tja> GCC doesn't suck.
14:46:16 <kc5tja> And I don't really have an edge.
14:46:24 <kc5tja> 2.2x slower than GCC is NOT that bad for a Forth.
14:46:38 <gilbertdeb> eh, forth is suposd to be faster :)
14:46:47 <kc5tja> That is an incorrect assumption.
14:46:50 <gilbertdeb> is it?
14:46:57 <kc5tja> It follows that on a CPU optimized to run C, that C would be faster.
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14:48:18 <gilbertdeb> I also wonder how on earth the language manages to be so small, pack a gui, and have a full blown rdbms in a 50kb file size!
14:48:21 <kc5tja> I can tell you precisely how it's done: hand-tuned assembly language, and judicious use of PREFETCH instructions.
14:48:30 <gilbertdeb> really?
14:48:56 <gilbertdeb> what about its tiny size?
14:49:12 <kc5tja> Dude, my test code (with PREFETCH instructions, but WITHOUT any other form of optimization) beat GCC's best, loop-unrolled output in both speed (17%) and code size (x50).
14:49:36 <gilbertdeb> code size reduction always sounds good :)
14:49:48 <kc5tja> Yeah, now, imagine if I'd unrolled loops 50x like GCC did.
14:49:51 <gilbertdeb> 150k lines of code make me feel dizzy.
14:50:02 <kc5tja> I probably would get another 10% to 20% improvement in speed.
14:50:23 <gilbertdeb> how large is fs/forth by now?
14:50:52 <TreyB> kc5tja: You might not get the speedup if you unrolled.  Cache pollution might bite you.
14:50:55 <kc5tja> Well, my FS/Forth for DOS consists of 40 blocks or so, and each block has around 12 lines on average.  So that's about 480 lines of code right there.  But remember, no device drivers, no multitasking, no memory management, no filesystem, no networking, ...
14:51:19 <kc5tja> TreyB: I don't think so.
14:51:56 <kc5tja> Vector processing tends not to revisit previously computed data.
14:52:32 <TreyB> The cache lines you save on code here might prevent a eviction somewhere important.
14:53:14 <kc5tja> Code and data caches are split on modern CPUs.
14:53:24 <kc5tja> The size of the code doesn't influence how the data cache is going to be used.
14:53:35 <kc5tja> (unless you use self-modifying code, in which case, it's MAJOR penalties)
14:53:40 <TreyB> I understand that, but you said "unrolled loops".
14:54:24 <TreyB> I meant that you might win overall if you kept your code-cache footprint down.
14:55:23 <TreyB> Code-cache size bites pretty hard on chips like Intel's XScale CPUs.
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15:26:51 <kc5tja> Well, by unrolling the loops, you'd eliminate subroutine call overhead -- basically a type of inlining in my case.
15:27:27 <kc5tja> But, at any rate, doesn't much matter.  I rarely optimize for speed unless I have to anyway.
15:27:40 <kc5tja> This was an academic exercise for me at best, just to see how my code compared with GCC's output.
15:27:57 <kc5tja> Anyone here have any experience with FreeDOS, and why it refuses to let me boot?
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15:53:22 <gilbertdeb> what do you guys think of other languages?
15:53:36 <gilbertdeb> eg apl, ocaml, k, etc.
15:54:16 <kc5tja> What am I supposed to think?
15:54:40 <gilbertdeb> I dunno yet :)
15:59:17 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: have you used ocaml for instance/
15:59:26 <kc5tja> No.
15:59:33 <kc5tja> But I don't object to it.
15:59:38 <gilbertdeb> nice pun.
15:59:44 <kc5tja> It's not a pun.
15:59:52 <gilbertdeb> o=='object'
15:59:56 * kc5tja knows
15:59:56 <gilbertdeb> nice accidental pun.
16:00:46 <kc5tja> Right now, I'm ripping my hair out because FreeDOS is a piece of shit, and refuses to boot on the box I'm using it on.
16:00:56 <kc5tja> If I can't get it running in two hours, I'm going to ditch it in favor of OpenDOS.
16:01:00 <kc5tja> (assuming I can still get it)
16:01:22 <gilbertdeb> just use the OTD
16:01:25 <gilbertdeb> MsDos
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16:11:41 <kc5tja> OTD?
16:11:50 * kc5tja doesn't want to use MS-DOS because I don't have MS-DOS install disks.
16:14:26 <gilbertdeb> OTD == one true dos.
16:14:34 <gilbertdeb> does DR-Dos still exist?
16:15:22 <kc5tja> Yes
16:15:28 <kc5tja> But it's not available freely anymore.
16:15:33 <kc5tja> I'm fucked.
16:15:38 <kc5tja> I'm totally fucked.
16:15:56 * kc5tja cannot deliver the customer's machine.
16:16:10 <gilbertdeb> dos is a rather odd request!
16:16:14 <gilbertdeb> can you get a copy from someone?
16:16:26 <kc5tja> I have a copy on my laptop, but the floppy drive is somewhat busted.
16:16:31 <kc5tja> But even so, that's piracy.
16:16:36 <gilbertdeb> yes it is.
16:16:41 <gilbertdeb> but whats to be done?
16:16:44 * kc5tja would much rather use open source.
16:17:21 <gilbertdeb> can you offer a solution and then an upgrade later?
16:17:27 <kc5tja> No
16:17:32 <kc5tja> Customer MUST have DOS on his box.
16:17:43 <kc5tja> That is the only way he can run his choice operating system (NewDeal Office)
16:17:52 <gilbertdeb> NewDeal office?
16:17:55 * gilbertdeb is googling
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16:23:59 <snowrichard> say what is up dudes
16:24:13 <gilbertdeb> dos.
16:24:17 <gilbertdeb> how is michael?
16:24:24 <snowrichard> my son or my language ?
16:24:37 <snowrichard> the boy is at scout camp
16:24:42 <gilbertdeb> the language :)
16:24:48 <snowrichard> :))) lol
16:24:51 <gilbertdeb> so thats why it is called that.
16:24:56 <snowrichard> yeah
16:25:17 <snowrichard> he want to learn how to program games and I thought a simplified language would be easy for a kid
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16:25:50 <snowrichard> he could write obfusticated code :) 
16:25:58 <gilbertdeb> so you wrote him a WHOLE language?
16:26:03 <gilbertdeb> thats something.
16:26:03 <snowrichard> minimal forth
16:26:15 <snowrichard> multiple levels include files
16:26:50 <snowrichard> but say something interesting last week
16:27:05 <snowrichard> mother gave me source code for 6502 assembler/editor I had worked on when I was 18
16:27:17 <gilbertdeb> :O
16:27:31 <snowrichard> yeah antique documents
16:27:39 <gilbertdeb> was it still readable?
16:27:43 <snowrichard> tty and sears electric typewriter output really ugly
16:27:44 <gilbertdeb> or had you neglected to comment it?
16:28:01 <snowrichard> I wrote the damn thing in hex codes I have them memorized
16:28:34 <snowrichard> A9 07 Lda #$07
16:28:37 <gilbertdeb> are you serioius????
16:28:54 <snowrichard> check out that 6502 opcode and see if I remember
16:28:56 <snowrichard> right
16:29:08 <gilbertdeb> I don't know 6502 at all.
16:29:14 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja might though.
16:29:17 <snowrichard> there is a ref card on google somewhere
16:29:23 * kc5tja knows 6502 like the back of my hand.
16:29:25 * kc5tja grew up on the CPU.
16:29:30 <snowrichard> yea I was 17
16:29:36 <snowrichard> going to write emulator
16:29:42 <gilbertdeb> hmmm. thats AGE -1 :)
16:29:58 <snowrichard> hey got cool digital camera this weekend
16:30:08 <snowrichard> doesn't do linux though have not tried wine yet
16:30:40 <snowrichard> but I could take to library with me and use their USB
16:31:23 <snowrichard> if they have no security on their windows install hey :) 
16:32:01 <snowrichard> you want see photo of me
16:32:15 <gilbertdeb> sure why not?
16:32:25 <gilbertdeb> lets play 'identify the 4thsmith'
16:32:26 <snowrichard> hang on have to ftp to my server
16:33:25 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: but how is it that new deal does not boot itself?
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16:36:26 <snowrichard> http://www.opensourceincome.com/files/richard.html
16:37:12 <gilbertdeb> so have you worked some more on your forth?
16:37:14 <gilbertdeb> any new changes?
16:37:37 <snowrichard> worked a little on a cat util
16:37:52 <snowrichard> "filename" define
16:37:53 <snowrichard> cat
16:38:31 <snowrichard> I am going crazy about the damn divorce :) 
16:38:36 <snowrichard> can't sleep
16:38:53 <snowrichard> want to drive to grand canyon :) 
16:39:03 <gilbertdeb> is it far?
16:39:07 <snowrichard> too 
16:39:17 <snowrichard> way too far
16:39:38 <snowrichard> but may go to lake next weekend
16:39:39 <XeF4> can't sleep
16:39:43 <XeF4> want to code a demo
16:39:53 <snowrichard> got drunk still could not sleep
16:40:19 <snowrichard> now need cigarette hold on
16:40:21 <XeF4> slept 3 hrs last night, coded postscript all day, drank to clear postscript coder's head
16:40:32 <gilbertdeb> postscript?
16:40:40 <gilbertdeb> what do you code postscript for?
16:40:52 <snowrichard> is postscript like forth?
16:41:01 <gilbertdeb> it is rpn too 
16:41:18 <gilbertdeb> and it was inspired by forth(ish).
16:41:24 <XeF4> snow: it's stack-based and rpn and has dictionaries, beyond that not too much similarity
16:41:27 <snowrichard> I need to get damn 1998 mustang sold
16:41:30 <gilbertdeb> its precessor looked very forth-y.
16:41:41 <XeF4> gilb: secret project =)
16:41:44 <gilbertdeb> Interpress it was called.
16:41:52 <snowrichard> will pay commission to find buyer
16:42:03 <gilbertdeb> XeF4: oh you mean a project to print out "hello world" in times new roman ??
16:42:13 <gilbertdeb> ebay.
16:42:17 <snowrichard> or have it repo
16:42:34 <gilbertdeb> I've never really heard of anyone coding postscript.
16:42:41 <gilbertdeb> XeF4: what is it like?
16:43:23 <gilbertdeb> snowrichard: also mycar.com 
16:43:31 <snowrichard> local radio station is down the block from me I will walk down and place ad 
16:43:49 <kc5tja> Well, it's about DAMNED TIME!!!
16:43:55 <kc5tja> Finally got FreeDOS to boot.
16:43:59 <snowrichard> freedos?
16:44:04 <gilbertdeb> what was stopping it?
16:44:21 <kc5tja> The problem was that the installer was formatting the drive FAT32, but the kernel it loaded at boot-time was only FAT16!!
16:44:37 <gilbertdeb> hairy problems.
16:44:53 <snowrichard> too much cholesterol in the file system :) 
16:45:11 <gilbertdeb> hahaha
16:45:50 <snowrichard> hey open office runs great from CD with knoppix
16:46:39 <XeF4> gilb: like forth with some syntactic quirks and an insane amount of drawing primitives
16:46:58 <gilbertdeb> XeF4: are the primitives helpful?
16:47:05 <snowrichard> I think a 3d font with rotation letters would be cool
16:47:55 <snowrichard> I would like to run java apps on my new gsm phone
16:48:03 <snowrichard> can't wait till it get here
16:48:04 <XeF4> gilb: there are so many they have to be =)
16:48:25 <XeF4> gilb: I'm not a typesetting expert, but it seems pretty complete to me
16:48:28 <snowrichard> wonder if nokia release specs
16:49:07 <snowrichard> damn cats cry all the time
16:49:11 <snowrichard> hungry
16:49:26 <snowrichard> I have 2 baby's
16:49:33 <gilbertdeb> Secret project aye? not typesetting either... not drawing.
16:49:45 <gilbertdeb> what else might postscript be used for ;)
16:49:50 <snowrichard> getting new puppy to raise as guard dog
16:50:06 <XeF4> gilb: drawint&typesetting.
16:50:07 <snowrichard> call her "Baby" 
16:50:46 <XeF4> gilb: I could tell the truth and say "bill slip generator", but then noone in here would respect me anymore and I'd start getting COBOL questions all the time
16:51:04 <snowrichard> ARGH COBOL SUCKS -- verbosity
16:51:12 <gilbertdeb> hehehe
16:51:19 <snowrichard> 150 line hello world program :) 
16:51:58 <snowrichard> I ran it on my PC :) 
16:52:05 <gilbertdeb> cobol?
16:52:16 <snowrichard> with hercules emulator I can run cobol yeah
16:52:29 <gilbertdeb> hercules?
16:52:29 <snowrichard> 390 mainframe on my desk :) 
16:52:39 <gilbertdeb> I don't follow.
16:52:53 <snowrichard> it emulates ibm mainframe series 360/370 390
16:53:01 <snowrichard> run VM
16:53:06 <snowrichard> OS
16:53:16 <snowrichard> Z/90 linux
16:53:23 <snowrichard> slow as dog :) 
16:53:41 <snowrichard> vm good performance
16:53:46 <gilbertdeb> who wrote it?
16:53:50 <snowrichard> IBM
16:53:59 <gilbertdeb> hercules?
16:54:01 <snowrichard> no the emulator is guys in germany
16:54:23 <XeF4> hurcules IS PEOPLE!!!!!  
16:54:27 <snowrichard> and one Jay Mayner in texas
16:54:51 <snowrichard> s/is/wrote/'
16:55:20 <gilbertdeb> no the emulator wrote guys in germany?
16:55:21 <gilbertdeb> ?
16:55:28 <snowrichard> google search hercules mainframe emulator hold on I'll get link
16:55:56 <gilbertdeb> I see it.
16:56:43 <snowrichard> I am benn up 2 days can not sleep consider go back to hospital
16:57:05 <kc5tja> OK, so I can sleep tonight without having to worry about my customer screaming at me for Monday.
16:57:08 <snowrichard> 3 week program
16:57:19 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: it all works?
16:57:48 <kc5tja> Got Slack installed, got DOS installed, and on Monday, it's a trip to the office to install the box, get it networked, install GEOS, and get DOS networking.
16:58:01 <kc5tja> Not 100%.
16:58:06 <snowrichard> then remote admin?
16:58:07 <kc5tja> It still needs to get GEOS installed.
16:58:12 <kc5tja> no, no remote administration.
16:58:16 <kc5tja> DOS has no such facilities.
16:58:22 <kc5tja> Nor would I allow it.
16:58:22 <snowrichard> dos bites :) 
16:58:34 <kc5tja> Remote administration is too dangerous.
16:58:37 <snowrichard> fsck bill gates he would not hire me
16:58:45 <gilbertdeb> snowrichard why not?
16:58:48 <kc5tja> I'm using FreeDOS, not MS-DOS.
16:58:54 <snowrichard> got letter from the vp
16:59:01 <snowrichard> Steve Ballmer
16:59:01 <gilbertdeb> snowrichard he apparently won't hire many people :)
16:59:18 <snowrichard> "We have no use for someone with your varied skills and talents"
16:59:24 <kc5tja> Besides, he's not running Windows -- he'll be running GEOS.
16:59:44 <snowrichard> don't call us child we'll call you :) 
17:00:32 <snowrichard> nobody wants a schizophrenic to program for them
17:00:35 <snowrichard> :))) LOL
17:00:44 <gilbertdeb> (:
17:00:59 <snowrichard> but hey it makes program defensively
17:01:21 <snowrichard> paranoid about bad user input
17:02:38 <snowrichard> I wrote a basic preprocessor one time on my color computer
17:02:50 <snowrichard> structured code generator
17:04:29 <snowrichard> I will lay down again and turn on some tunes on TV later
17:06:04 <snowrichard> Music Choice
17:16:44 <kc5tja> Weird -- I just had seven in-progress web connections on my box, to sites that I just didn't access.
17:16:51 * kc5tja just kill -9'ed the whole lot.
17:16:55 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:18:51 * kc5tja can't listen to music on TV -- the horizontal flyback transformer just gets in the way for me.
17:18:59 * kc5tja can hear the 15734Hz tone they produce.
17:19:06 <gilbertdeb> how?
17:19:21 <kc5tja> Human hearing range is typically between 20Hz and 20,000Hz.
17:19:21 <gilbertdeb> and what does it sound like?
17:19:33 <kc5tja> It sounds like an incredibly high-pitched whistle that won't stop.
17:19:36 <kc5tja> It's pure torture for me.
17:19:49 <gilbertdeb> ah I've heard it on really old about to die tvs.
17:20:32 <kc5tja> No, I can even hear the flybacks in my SVGA monitor.
17:20:41 <kc5tja> (when in 60Hz mode)
17:20:43 <gilbertdeb> so do you watch TV at all?
17:20:46 <kc5tja> No.
17:20:51 <kc5tja> Not unless I'm watching a DVD.
17:21:06 <gilbertdeb> thats great!
17:21:07 <kc5tja> But there, I have the audio loud enough to drown it out.
17:21:15 <gilbertdeb> medical reasons not to rot your brain.
17:21:21 <kc5tja> But I can tell every time my roommate turns the TV on.
17:22:45 <gilbertdeb> I hear that too when the tv is on mute.
17:22:53 <gilbertdeb> but I hardly notice it.
17:23:06 <kc5tja> It's very distracting and offensive to me.
17:23:27 <kc5tja> Damn, I wish I had a different CD-ROM drive in this box -- I'd be installing Slackware in this thing right now.
17:29:07 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@pc64dn1d.ppp.FCC.NET) joined #forth
17:29:08 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
17:29:12 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:29:23 <gilbertdeb> hi tbw
17:29:34 <kc5tja> re TheBlueWizard
17:30:09 * kc5tja is glad he didn't go to D&D today -- got lots of productive work done.
17:30:19 <TheBlueWizard> hiya gilbertdeb
17:30:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
17:30:50 * TheBlueWizard returns from a two day trip :)
17:30:58 <snowrichard> hold on need to pay my internet bill
17:31:04 --- part: snowrichard left #forth
17:33:15 <kc5tja> You know, with all this retro stuff going on, I wonder if I'll end up supporting the FreeDOS community with my own GEM distribution.
17:33:23 <kc5tja> That would somehow be cool.
17:33:38 <kc5tja> And, let's not forget FS/Forth for DOS.
17:33:59 <TheBlueWizard> heh....you still have GEM, eh?
17:34:10 <kc5tja> GEM is open source now -- GPL.
17:34:26 <TheBlueWizard> oh really? hmm....
17:34:28 <kc5tja> But, yes, I have GEM installed on my box here.
17:34:50 <kc5tja> Yeah, but the tools to compile it are all discombobulated.  DR's work on GEM was schizophrenic, to say the least.
17:35:15 <kc5tja> If I were to release my own GEM distribution, you can pretty much bet that I'd basically rewrite large portions of the code to use either GCC or some other DOS-based C compiler.
17:35:24 <kc5tja> Or, I'd even rewrite the dang thing in assembly language.
17:35:36 <kc5tja> Maybe even release a GEM/32 extension for it.  :)
17:35:49 <gilbertdeb> what's gem precisely?
17:36:32 * TheBlueWizard shakes his head re: DR's approach, from what kc5tja said
17:36:37 <kc5tja> Graphics Environment Manager -- basically a GUI environment for DOS that enabled it to compete so well with Apple, that Digital Research was forced to cripple its desktop environment in all subsequent versions of GEM.
17:37:05 <kc5tja> As far as I know, it's the first and only truely sane GUI environment for DOS.
17:37:25 <kc5tja> GEOS was really nice -- REALLY nice -- but it was a completely different mindset.
17:37:32 <TheBlueWizard> Atari ST has GEM running as its GUI environment
17:37:40 <kc5tja> It basically replaced DOS as the OS, even though it used DOS in the shadows.
17:37:46 * kc5tja nods
17:38:03 <kc5tja> GEM came out for the PC first, then for a generic 68K-based CP/M machine, and later, the Atari ST.
17:38:15 <kc5tja> I think Atari made a great move using GEM for the ST.
17:38:22 <TheBlueWizard> only 'sane' GUI for DOS to date? I find it a bit hard to believe...
17:38:38 <gilbertdeb> TBW there is that other GUI called windows ;)
17:38:46 <gilbertdeb> also for dos.
17:38:47 <kc5tja> OS/2 is not a DOS GUI.
17:39:00 <kc5tja> Windows is a DOS GUI (or was), but is certainly not sane.
17:39:14 <kc5tja> I can't think of a single counter-example.
17:39:26 <kc5tja> But GEM's software architecture was brutally simple.
17:39:31 <gilbertdeb> ummm. Amstrad Counterpoint?
17:39:46 <kc5tja> Not sure, but I know Amstrad had shipped GEM with a lot of its computers.
17:39:52 <kc5tja> It's possible Counterpoint was built on top of GEM.
17:39:57 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: I know about Win 3.1 (and Win 9x if you count its DOS sublayer as separate thing)...I'm talking about the general expectation that there would be several GUIs atop DOS
17:40:26 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: I'm not talking about application-specific GUIs.  I'm talking about a GUI environment in which other applications ran.
17:40:30 <gilbertdeb> counterpoint had a bunch of icons, basically it was a file browser.
17:40:33 <gilbertdeb> pretty neat.
17:40:40 <gilbertdeb> I still remember the one for prince of persia :)
17:41:35 <kc5tja> Counterpoint doesn't appear to be GEM based
17:41:44 <kc5tja> But, no matter.
17:41:57 <kc5tja> From a programmer's perspective, GEM was extremely simple.  Some might argue, too simple.
17:42:17 <kc5tja> For example, the windowing system really didn't talk much to the graphics driver.  Rarely, in fact.  :)
17:42:21 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: 'appear'? how did you find out?
17:42:28 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I saw a screen shot.
17:42:28 <gilbertdeb> does google know of counterpoint?
17:42:41 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Yes.  Search: amstrad counterpoint
17:43:28 <kc5tja> It seems they shipped GEM with Counterpoint on some models, though.
17:43:30 <gilbertdeb> awww.
17:43:31 <kc5tja> Usually GEM 2.0.
17:43:40 <gilbertdeb> my first computer was an amstrad 5286 .
17:44:01 <gilbertdeb> Dated 1991, designed to run from a floppy
17:44:03 <gilbertdeb> :)
17:45:16 <gilbertdeb> when was the last time anything remotely gui based was designed to run from a floppy?
17:45:30 <gilbertdeb> n/m rebol and k can.
17:45:41 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: I suppose you plan to implement your GUI for FS/Forth with ideas from GEM (among other things)?
17:45:54 <kc5tja> Commodore Amiga, 1985, Kickstart 1.0 -- Operating system shipped on two floppies: Kickstart 1.0 (the kernel), and the Workbench disk (the root filesystem).
17:46:15 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Yes, ideas ranging from GEM to MacOS X's Display PDF architecture will be included.
17:46:15 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: do you suppose counterpoint could work on the linux console?
17:46:23 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I don't know a thing about it.
17:46:33 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: it sat atop dos.
17:46:49 <gilbertdeb> on a 286 running at a blazing 16 mhz.
17:47:05 <gilbertdeb> I had to slow the darned machine down to 4 mhz to run digger!
17:47:13 <gilbertdeb> and yep, there was a utility for that.
17:47:21 <gilbertdeb> it was called 'speed'.
17:47:34 <TheBlueWizard> Amiga Kickstart 1.0 thru 1.3 fits on a single 880K floppy; and all Amiga 1.x systems shipped on 2 880K floppies.  Not sure about 2.04, since it is usually shipped preinstalled on a HD
17:47:54 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: PC/GEOS ran unfathomably fast on a 16MHz 286, including outline fonts and device independent rendering.
17:48:10 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Amiga Kickstart all the way through to 3.9 fits on a single floppy.
17:48:26 <kc5tja> The Workbench environment, however, doesn't.  Even Workbench 1.2 had to be split into Workbench and Extras disks.
17:48:49 <gilbertdeb> I suppose multi user servers with internet access need all those 660,000 lins of code.
17:49:12 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I question that.
17:49:19 <gilbertdeb> as you should ;)
17:49:23 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: interesting....I have no real "knowledge" of AmigaOS's "sizes" past 2.04
17:49:53 <kc5tja> I firmly believe that it's possible to make a real, multitasking, multi-user system that is substantially smaller.  QNX Real Time Platform, for example, is full POSIX, including multi-user support, and it fits in only 6MB of disk space.
17:50:02 <kc5tja> All ROMs are either 256KB or 512KB.
17:50:06 <TheBlueWizard> I thought 1.2 is just one two floppies...I may have to dig up....
17:50:10 <kc5tja> Kickstart 1.4 was the last 256KB ROM that existed.
17:50:30 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: You're forgetting that ROMs existed for all models except the Amiga 1000.
17:50:37 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: 6mb?
17:50:38 <kc5tja> So all you had was Workbench and Extras.
17:50:47 <gilbertdeb> qnx is an embedded os...
17:50:58 <kc5tja> The Amiga 1000, however, didn't have a ROM -- it had write-protected RAM.  So it came with three disks: one for the kernel, one for Workbench, and one for Extras.
17:51:08 <gilbertdeb> but even it requires 640meg to 2gb of space.
17:51:10 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: I have it installed on my PC.  Makes a fine desktop OS.
17:51:21 <gilbertdeb> yeah I have the cd lying around.
17:51:50 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Does it?  I don't believe it does -- if it does, then it's for the applications that aren't QNX-specific (e.g., most POSIX utilities found on Linux).
17:51:58 <kc5tja> See, you're not letting me finish my thought though.
17:52:00 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: you may be right, but I still do have A1000, even though I haven't turned it on in ages, and I know it doesn't have KS ROM, just boot ROM
17:52:08 <kc5tja> I'm saying, it's possible to create a small, well-designed system.
17:52:14 <kc5tja> Just don't expect it to be Unix.
17:52:21 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> TBW-afk
17:52:29 <gilbertdeb> sure. I'm beginning to like plan9.
17:57:55 <kc5tja> I think Plan9 is even a bit big for my liking.
17:58:32 <gilbertdeb> in its current incarnation, sure.
17:58:38 <gilbertdeb> its the ideas I like.
17:59:30 <gilbertdeb> it seems that C and asm dominate the systems programming world.
17:59:42 <gilbertdeb> I wonder what else people could use that they're studiously avoiding!
17:59:58 <gilbertdeb> ... but there aren't that many alternatives anyway.
18:00:22 <kc5tja> Oberon
18:00:25 * kc5tja really likes Oberon.
18:00:30 <gilbertdeb> aha.
18:00:40 <kc5tja> But I don't make any claims that Oberon produces smaller or tighter code than C.
18:00:48 <kc5tja> But it certainly does produce more modular and easier to manage software.
18:01:07 <gilbertdeb> isn't it too pascal-like?
18:02:43 <kc5tja> That's like asking if C is too C++-like.
18:02:59 <kc5tja> Sure, it has obvious heritage from Pascal, but it is definitely NOT Pascal.
18:03:18 <kc5tja> It's actually a stripped down and rationalized version of Modula-2, if you really need to make an analogy.
18:03:44 <gilbertdeb> and its nice you say?
18:05:08 <gilbertdeb> there is oberon and oberon-2 ?
18:06:02 <kc5tja> Yes
18:06:22 <gilbertdeb> so which is which?
18:06:26 <kc5tja> Oberon-2 is a subtle refinement to the language: it re-introduces the FOR statement, and introduces "type-bound procedures" -- basically virtual methods.
18:06:33 <kc5tja> Oberon is the original language.
18:06:47 <kc5tja> In all other respects, Oberon-2 and Oberon are the same language.
18:11:38 <kc5tja> Looks like GEM hasn't been touched in a long time.
18:11:59 <gilbertdeb> you say its open source now right?
18:12:51 <kc5tja> Yep.
18:13:03 * kc5tja is trying to grab the binaries and sources, so that I have a local mirror of them.
18:13:22 * kc5tja doesn't trust the current site -- plus it's hard to navigate, and I'd like to try building them myself, for my own distribution.
18:13:26 <kc5tja> I think it'd be fun.
18:13:38 <kc5tja> Especially if I can give it a major (and much needed!!) face lift.
18:14:26 <gilbertdeb> how do people normally reverse engineer drivers for computers?
18:14:35 <gilbertdeb> by poring over asm listings?
18:18:12 <kc5tja> Pretty much
18:18:17 <kc5tja> Or by reviewing their Linux drivers.
18:18:28 <kc5tja> Not much else you can do.
18:18:39 <gilbertdeb> hmmm.
18:21:09 <TBW-afk> don't forget that you can take a look at *BSD codes too
18:21:26 <TBW-afk> but it's a lot of work though
18:21:26 <gilbertdeb> yes.
18:21:34 <TBW-afk> I need to be afk again
18:21:36 <gilbertdeb> but before it becomes bsd or linux code ...
18:23:11 <kc5tja> Yeah, I kind of lump BSD's source codes in with the Linux driver's.  :)
18:23:25 <kc5tja> Prior to open sourcing, you have to reverse engineer via disassembly listings.
18:23:46 <kc5tja> You might also need to play with the hardware directly on the register level to inspect how it behaves to various bit patterns.
18:28:50 <kc5tja> Yeah, I think I'm going to take up implementing my own GEM distribution as a back-burner type hobby.
18:28:58 <kc5tja> I think it'd be fun, and it'd get my name known in the open source community.
18:29:00 <gilbertdeb> in forth??
18:29:01 <kc5tja> FS/GEM.  I like it.  :)
18:29:11 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: great.
18:29:21 <kc5tja> Doubt it.  Not unless it involves a rewrite of some critical components.
18:29:32 <kc5tja> But it's not outside the realm of possibility.
18:29:38 <gilbertdeb> I'm utterly impressed by the likes of k and rebol including gui building code in such a tiny language.
18:30:01 <kc5tja> A rewrite, BTW, is definitely in order to handle more than 16 colors and to go into 32-bit mode.
18:30:25 <kc5tja> But I'm going to take the evolutionary approach -- starting out with the core GEM distribution files, and building up from there.
18:31:15 --- nick: TBW-afk -> TheBlueWizard
18:31:35 <TheBlueWizard> first, get GEM to work, then evolve it :)
18:31:40 <kc5tja> Correct.
18:31:51 <kc5tja> Evolving, of course, could well mean, "rewrite in assembly."
18:32:06 <kc5tja> (or Forth as the case may be, but I think it'd just be easier to go straight to assembly)
18:32:15 <gilbertdeb> to be clear: gem is an OS with a gui right?
18:32:34 <kc5tja> And unlike all the other GEM distributions out there, besides being unsupported, I'll have a standard package manager based on Slackware's ideas.
18:32:51 <kc5tja> GEM is a layer that sits on top of DOS, where DOS + GEM = graphical OS like MacOS.
18:33:21 <gilbertdeb> aaah I see.
18:33:42 <kc5tja> But, like Windows, I feel it can be evolved to a self-standing OS environment.
18:34:09 <kc5tja> One which is substantially smaller, more user friendly, and definitely more stable.
18:36:05 <TheBlueWizard> or evolve to a point where one simply provide an analogue of HAL (let's call it GAL = Graphical Abstract Layer) for GEM, so that GEM can be run on variety of OSes like Linux; one would only have to write a GAL for a specific OS...doable?  interesting thought :)
18:36:46 <gilbertdeb> TBW so that one wouldn't need to run X just to have gui apps?
18:36:55 <kc5tja> GEM is, in theory, built that way already.
18:37:08 <kc5tja> But I don't know how easy it is to write such a GAL.
18:37:16 <gilbertdeb> hehhee.
18:37:24 <gilbertdeb> GALS are hard period.
18:37:52 <kc5tja> heh
18:38:14 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: I suppose that would be the case (re: not needing X...by the way, I welcome a fork of X...promote more competition...and more cooperation as a result :)
18:38:31 <kc5tja> A fork of X?
18:38:43 <gilbertdeb> TBW I rather like the gui in plan9.
18:38:56 <TheBlueWizard> GAL could be hard to design and write for...just a wild idea of my own :)
18:39:06 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: SDL.  :)
18:39:16 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: yes, there is a fork of X
18:39:24 <TheBlueWizard> SDL?
18:39:31 <kc5tja> http://www.libsdl.org
18:39:43 <kc5tja> Simple DirectMedia Library/Layer/whatever
18:40:04 <Herkamire> I don't want a fork of X, I want another software package that runs as an X server
18:40:36 * kc5tja wants a replacement for XFree86 itself, including the X server.
18:40:40 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: ah...interesting...
18:40:44 <kc5tja> But then I'd lose support for my video card.
18:41:05 <gilbertdeb> I wonder what you think of the plan9 gui.
18:41:10 <gilbertdeb> it isn't like X at all.
18:41:17 <Herkamire> kc5tja: yeah, that's the problem, X is very had to replace because it has all the graphics drivers in it.
18:41:59 <Herkamire> I'll just have to fulfill my own gui fantesies in my own OS
18:42:40 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: here's the Slashdot article announcing the official forking of X11: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/13/0253224&mode=thread&tid=0&tid=104
18:43:18 <kc5tja> checking
18:45:24 <kc5tja> That is just a community site.
18:45:44 <kc5tja> I don't think that does anything to address the issue of XFree86 just plain being a bad GUI architecture.
18:45:54 <kc5tja> (well, it's not a bad architecture -- it's a bad implementation of a good idea)
18:45:56 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: there was another one...
18:46:56 <kc5tja> Berlin is an attempt to move forward with the X concept.
18:47:01 <kc5tja> Berlin, aka Fresco.
18:47:07 <Herkamire> I think the concept of a windowed environment is a mistake.
18:47:13 <kc5tja> It depends.
18:47:15 <kc5tja> Windows have their place.
18:47:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what are they good for?
18:47:39 <kc5tja> They are ideal for file requestors, print requestors, etc.
18:47:42 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: emulating a desktop.
18:47:50 <gilbertdeb> roots are in smalltalk and the alto machine.
18:47:52 <Herkamire> kc5tja: dialog boxes?
18:47:52 <TheBlueWizard> I don't presume to know what Keith Packard is doing (in fact I haven't heard of the internal controversy until Keith broke out with his decision to fork the X11).  Nevertheless, it is a nice break from the oh-so-insular development that X11 is notorious for
18:47:54 <kc5tja> For application workspaces, though, I prefer panes and tabs.
18:48:25 * kc5tja notes he has been using the ion window manager for some time now.
18:49:19 <gilbertdeb> ah ion. I have it here. it really messes with my apl terminal.
18:49:26 <Herkamire> I don't think dialog boxes should have their own window in the majority of places.
18:49:28 <gilbertdeb> to type the extra characters, I have to use ctrl alt.
18:49:34 <gilbertdeb> or alt shift or alt something.
18:49:52 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: there remains a lot to be fixed.
18:50:00 <Herkamire> A dialog box usually must be delt with before you can use the window it came from again. it should be part of, be attached to or replace that window until you've handled it.
18:50:03 <gilbertdeb> it is a design issue, but most coders don't have a design background.
18:50:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire: For things that I don't want on the screen all the time, every time, windows are ideal.  File and print dialogs are just such items.
18:50:50 <kc5tja> Fortunately, they're pretty rare.
18:50:52 <Herkamire> Mac OS X does this in an interesting way (atach dialogs to windows)
18:51:04 <kc5tja> Yes, and I absolutely HATE it.
18:51:13 <kc5tja> That's the one thing about MacOS X that I utterly abhore.
18:51:17 <Herkamire> haven't really used it. but I think it's interesting
18:51:28 <kc5tja> I much prefer the new finder for opening things with drag-n-drop.
18:51:57 <kc5tja> That being said, I also prefer a much, much, much more document centric interface than most systems provide me too.
18:52:42 <kc5tja> The MacOS...er...NeXTStep Finder is simply a fantastic tool.  And yes, I intend on replicating it for my own evil, nefarious purposes where appropriate.
18:52:59 <gilbertdeb> the finder?
18:53:05 <gilbertdeb> exactly what does it do?
18:53:12 <Herkamire> curses programs (like the linux kernel menuconfig) do dialogs just fine without opening another window
18:53:34 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: but really, what are the extra Gigahertz gonna be used for?
18:53:53 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Are they truely "dialogs" then?
18:53:56 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: what Gigahertz?
18:54:01 <kc5tja> I don't think they are.
18:54:07 <Herkamire> kc5tja: why not?
18:54:19 <Herkamire> +-------------------+
18:54:26 <Herkamire> | Are you sure?      |
18:54:31 <kc5tja> Because they're the primary mode of focus for the user -- the user deals with that program first and foremost, all the time, every time.
18:54:37 <gilbertdeb> hahah
18:54:37 <Herkamire> | [yes]  no         |
18:54:39 <Herkamire> +-------------------+
18:55:19 <kc5tja> I'm talking about something like GIMP, which absolutely cannot be replicated using ncurses btw :), where I need to quickly change the behavior of a tool.
18:55:33 <kc5tja> Or I need to do a quick one-off print using lower-than-normal quality to save ink.
18:57:19 <kc5tja> Having to flip tabs is annoying because I have to move my mouse from where I need it to be, and using panes both requires me to move the mouse AND to cut screen space that otherwise could be devoted to my picture.
18:57:48 <Herkamire> you use the mouse to switch tabs????
18:57:52 <kc5tja> At least with a pop-up window, and with suitable keyboard navigation capabilities, I don't have to move the mouse.
18:58:13 <kc5tja> Herkamire: No, but I have to move the mouse to manipulate the gadgetry in the pane.
18:58:26 <kc5tja> GTK isn't exactly the most keyboard friendly toolkit.
18:58:35 <kc5tja> Especially when it comes to entering text.
18:58:38 <Herkamire> yeah. you change tabs with your left hand and work the mouse with the right
18:58:48 <kc5tja> That's what I'd prefer to do.
18:59:10 <kc5tja> Well, I can't explain it.
18:59:13 <kc5tja> You just have to watch how I work.
18:59:23 <kc5tja> But for me, pop-up windows are useful.
18:59:30 <kc5tja> But like anything, they can be abused horribly.
18:59:36 <Herkamire> agreed
18:59:38 <kc5tja> And in X, they are abused horribly.
18:59:49 <Herkamire> definately
18:59:59 * kc5tja is just glad that something like ion exists, and that most applications are happy running within it.
19:00:07 <Herkamire> and in M$ Windoze they are enough to drive me mad
19:00:11 <kc5tja> Not all X applications are, however, especially those that require the use of the function keys.
19:00:31 * kc5tja nods
19:00:40 <Herkamire> :) yeah, I always use the F-keys for my window manager
19:01:05 <kc5tja> I should free up all my keybindings, because I only use a very select subset of what is actually given to me.
19:01:21 <Herkamire> I don't have a problem with the way GIMP uses dialog boxes
19:01:27 <kc5tja> I only use F2 and I've redefined F3 and ALT-F3 to bring up a browser or shell.
19:01:49 <kc5tja> All the other function keys are just not used by me.
19:02:35 <cleverdra> or you could use ratpoison, where you generally use keybindings instead of menus.
19:02:51 <kc5tja> cleverdra: Menus for what?
19:02:58 <Herkamire> I use F1-F6 regularly.
19:03:08 <cleverdra> kc5 - starting programs
19:03:16 <cleverdra> kc5 - window manipulation
19:03:22 <kc5tja> cleverdra: Like I said -- menus for what? :)
19:03:31 <Herkamire> I could free up F3-F6 pretty easily
19:03:35 <kc5tja> I hit F3, and I'm presented with a small shell-like prompt at the bottom of the window.  
19:04:04 <Herkamire> ion doesn't have menus does it?
19:04:06 <kc5tja> I hit ALT-F3, and it asks me for a URL to go to, where upon it brings up Firebird pointing to that URL.  (Or Google if none supplied)
19:04:06 <cleverdra> kc5 - in ratpoison the default for that is 'C-t !' -- a little easier than F3, on a laptop keyboard.
19:04:10 <Herkamire> I haven't seen any
19:04:27 <kc5tja> No, ion doesn't have menus
19:04:47 <cleverdra> kc5 - oh, that's nifty.
19:04:49 <kc5tja> cleverdra: Not in my case.  C-t is like giving the Vulcan nerve pinch to the computer -- too much effort for touch typing.
19:05:04 <cleverdra> kc5 - not if your control key is in the right place.
19:05:12 <kc5tja> cleverdra: There is no right place.
19:05:15 <cleverdra> kc5 - and if you're using dvorak.
19:05:26 <kc5tja> cleverdra: OK, dvorak changes things.  :)
19:05:41 * kc5tja will accept that with the proviso of using Dvorak.
19:05:48 <cleverdra> kc5 - control left of the 'a' and a dvorak keyboard is how God intended the keyboard to work -- except, perhaps, with gestures.
19:06:03 <cleverdra> I still need to get a gesture keyboard.
19:06:14 <kc5tja> cleverdra: I've used both kinds of keyboards, and frankly, I prefer the touch-typists position for CTRL. 
19:06:44 <cleverdra> kc5 - what's that?
19:06:57 <Herkamire> damn, I tried to do an action with /herkamire again
19:07:00 <kc5tja> Two CTRL keys on either side of the keyboard, just below the SHIFT keys.
19:07:16 <cleverdra> kc5 - really?  I hate that already.
19:07:21 <kc5tja> Yup.
19:07:30 <kc5tja> I find it to be substantially faster for my typing speeds.
19:07:43 <kc5tja> What I DO NOT like is the placement of the Windows keys right next to the CTRL keys.
19:08:20 <cleverdra> kc5 - I can't think of *any* position better than left-of-a -- it's so convenient, where your left pinky can hit it without disabling either hand for any key.  But OK.
19:08:21 <kc5tja> Though I would admit if there was a CTRL 'bar' underneath the spacebar.  I'd go faster still with a keyboard like that.
19:09:04 <kc5tja> It's so convenient until you are trying to mash keys with the left hand (like CTRL-Q, CTRL-A, or CTRL-Z) at 90wpm typing speed.
19:09:04 <Herkamire> cleverdra: I don't use control much
19:09:42 <cleverdra> kc5 - with dvorak, this would be C-' C-a C-;
19:10:35 <kc5tja> Still, C-a, C-o, C-e, C-u and C-i would all be awkward for me to type.
19:10:52 <kc5tja> In fact, anything on the left-hand side would be.
19:12:36 * kc5tja is hungry.
19:12:38 * kc5tja is poor.
19:12:42 <kc5tja> These are two mutually exclusive things.
19:14:56 <gilbertdeb> they are not independent.
19:16:50 <kc5tja> No, that's what sucks.
19:17:28 * kc5tja sighs
19:20:24 * TheBlueWizard is a bit confused
19:20:43 <kc5tja> What's up?
19:23:03 <TheBlueWizard> you said you're "hungry" and "poor" and that those are mutually exclusive things, and gilbertdeb said they are not...I am a bit confused...
19:23:28 <kc5tja> I consider them mutually exclusive because I cannot solve my hunger problem.
19:23:35 <kc5tja> Not with money, at least (e.g., buying food)
19:23:40 * kc5tja can't even afford to hit the supermarket.
19:25:00 <TheBlueWizard> now you're confusing me even more...buying food requires money
19:25:20 <kc5tja> OK, let's put this into perspective.
19:25:22 <gilbertdeb> in the long run TINSTAAFL
19:25:23 <kc5tja> I am unemployed.
19:25:29 <gilbertdeb> but he could go for a free lunch.
19:25:32 <kc5tja> I had to pay a $1440 rent bill.
19:25:47 <kc5tja> I had to pay a $525 cable modem bill that my roommate said he'd paid, but quite obviously didn't.
19:26:01 <kc5tja> That's almost $2K of my money that I don't have any more.
19:26:04 <gilbertdeb> 525? how fast is your connection?
19:26:08 <kc5tja> My checking account has all of $42 in it.
19:26:17 <kc5tja> It varies -- it can go up to 10Mbps at times.
19:26:29 <gilbertdeb> and you gotta pay that much?
19:26:36 <kc5tja> Depends on who, in the neighborhood, is using it at the time.
19:27:03 <kc5tja> Past due bills tend to accrue, yes.
19:27:11 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like your roommate stiffed you...now that really sux
19:28:35 <kc5tja> Yep.
19:28:45 * kc5tja is looking to move to San Diego in September.
19:29:01 <TheBlueWizard> cheaper, I hope?
19:32:05 <kc5tja> Yes.
19:32:16 <kc5tja> Five people living in the (much larger) house, all college students, all pretty responsible.
19:33:21 <kc5tja> So my rent drops from $1440 to only $550/month (because I'm getting the "big room", and it is hhuuggee too -- I saw it yesterday.  It's a monsterously big room.  At least 15' x 20', which is gargantuan in California)
19:35:53 <TheBlueWizard> provided they aren't freshmen, then that should be ok :)  I once lived in an apt with 5 other people, 4 of them were college kids, and it was real tough trying to conduct a household meeting...and that one guy who liked to keep piling up his clothes for one whole month then wash them like crazy on one day, using up all hot water (there were a lot of angry words about that!)...ahhh the memories :/
19:36:22 <gilbertdeb> tbw freshmen usually aren't allowed to live off campus.
19:36:24 <kc5tja> Some are, some aren't.
19:36:30 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: ???
19:36:40 <kc5tja> That certainly isn't true.  :)
19:36:49 <gilbertdeb> in my school it wasn't.
19:36:55 <gilbertdeb> I mean was.
19:37:07 <kc5tja> Depends on the school.
19:37:16 <gilbertdeb> i accidentally found out how to break out of that by not paying my next semesters dorm fees on time.
19:37:19 <TheBlueWizard> gilbertdeb: that depends on which colleges
19:37:20 <gilbertdeb> I got to live off campus.
19:37:26 <gilbertdeb> much cheaper.
19:38:48 <gilbertdeb> My roommates after that were all really awesome.
19:39:00 <gilbertdeb> I'm getting a new one tomorrow.
20:31:06 <kc5tja> back in a bit -- food time.
20:31:19 <gilbertdeb> good, you have food!
20:31:27 <kc5tja> No, I'm going to get it.
20:31:48 * kc5tja doesn't have food in the apartment -- it's rather . . . barren here.
21:19:13 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
21:19:24 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
22:09:36 --- quit: Herkamire ("goodnight zzzZZZ")
22:12:47 <kc5tja> Back
22:45:40 --- join: \\\ (~o@jalokivi.netsafir.com) joined #forth
22:46:23 <gilbertdeb> \\\ ?
22:46:43 <gilbertdeb> how is that pronounced?
22:47:15 <\\\> escescesc
22:47:22 <kc5tja> ...  :)
22:47:28 <\\\> or something
22:47:29 <kc5tja> back
23:09:54 <cleverdra> oh, \\\, I love your name -- it's a perfect pictograph of tall grasses blowing gently in the wind, on a cool august day, an hour before sunset, with streaming thin clouds in the sky, and a red barn of some sort.
23:20:12 --- nick: gilbertdeb -> gil_grape
23:28:47 <kc5tja> OK, I'm going to bed.
23:28:54 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:48:17 --- quit: gil_grape ("<--- off to play in the dirt.")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.08.02