00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.07.22
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05:59:40 <Serg_Penguin> hi
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07:12:35 <Robert> Terve
07:15:19 <mur> Terve Robert! :)
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09:42:31 <onetom> e
09:42:31 <onetom> re
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11:12:00 <kc5tja> re a7r_
11:12:06 <a7r_> hey kc5tja 
11:12:07 <a7r_> what's shaking?
11:12:43 <kc5tja> I'm still wondering how I'm going to make next month's rent.  :(
11:14:13 <kc5tja> I need to find some way of making some money, right now.
11:17:03 <a7r_> yah, I'm thinking of going and picking up a day job, something not in computers.
11:17:13 <a7r_> like, maybe doing video rental or something.
11:17:25 <kc5tja> I'm unemployable right now.
11:17:44 <kc5tja> I have too good a skill set to get such "lowly jobs," and I don't have enough skills to get into any of the larger positions.
11:17:45 <a7r_> do you bite customers?
11:17:53 <kc5tja> Bite customers?
11:18:04 <a7r_> I mean, making you unemployable.
11:18:28 <kc5tja> I'm talking about employment as in working for someone else, not working for myself.
11:18:57 <kc5tja> As far as biting customers, well, I don't know.  I kind of need one first to find out, right?
11:19:09 <a7r_> oh, I could work for someone else, just not doing anything related to computers.
11:19:29 <a7r_> or really anything I care about.
11:20:31 <kc5tja> Well, I tried to work for someone else.
11:20:49 <kc5tja> And the results were always the same -- "You're Overqualified for This Position."
11:21:09 <kc5tja> Either that, or, "We're sorry; we've found someone better than you."
11:21:15 <kc5tja> So, basically, I'm fucked.
11:21:19 <a7r_> haha
11:21:21 <a7r_> over qualified
11:21:48 <kc5tja> Overqualification is a HUGE problem for people like me.  You'll be amazed at just how often that term is applied.
11:22:57 <kc5tja> Basically, what it means is, "We recognize that you'd be perfect for this position, but you have too much experience dealing with managers who are otherwise control freaks.  We know perfectly well that you'll end up in at least one critical argument with our management.  We are avoiding this at all costs, so we'd rather hire a pimply-faced teenager who dropped out of high-school and considers working at Citgo a career move."
11:23:40 <kc5tja> It is very insulting to me to hear this, but it's been constant in my low-grade job search efforts.
11:39:06 <ianni>  you should omit stuff frmo your CV :)
11:39:25 <ianni> re-apply at some place with only 'pertinent' referenees
11:45:38 <kc5tja> I can't hide my previous places of employment.
12:22:13 <XeF4> forgive me for asking, but why not?
12:36:26 <kc5tja> Because it's part of a background check.
12:37:06 <kc5tja> And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, "Gee, there's a seven year lapse between his last job and his current application.  How'd he survive all these years?"
12:37:31 <kc5tja> At any rate, I need to run some errands.  I have bills to pay and whatnot...still more money out of my pocket.
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15:41:00 <kc5tja> back
15:41:49 <Robert> Evening :)
15:42:06 <kc5tja> Almost evening here.  In another three hours.
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15:42:25 <kc5tja> re CrowKilr
15:42:39 <CrowKilr> i got my editor going
15:42:45 <CrowKilr> written in javascript lol
15:42:53 <Robert> Heh.
15:42:55 <CrowKilr> my old dream ;p
15:42:58 <kc5tja> I'm glad I didn't write up a webpage for my vocabulary structure -- I changed it subtly.
15:43:25 <CrowKilr> you mean your 3 4096 bytes arrays?
15:43:37 <kc5tja> uhhh....a LOT more than that. ::)
15:44:04 <kc5tja> The old method had three arrays.
15:44:11 <CrowKilr> i was hoping to exagagerate to make you feel bad ;p
15:44:24 <kc5tja> The length array was 4096 bytes long, the second array was 16384 bytes long, and the third was 4096 bytes long.
15:44:24 <CrowKilr> (kidding)
15:44:37 <CrowKilr> kk yeah i remember now
15:44:45 <kc5tja> The new approach just uses two arrays.
15:45:00 <CrowKilr> cfa and word?
15:45:07 <kc5tja> The length array works precisely as before: storing 1024 prefixes for each word.
15:45:30 <kc5tja> The second array stores the next 12 characters (instead of 16), and the CFA in the last word.
15:45:45 <kc5tja> This eliminates the need for that third array, which reduces the cache hit.
15:46:02 <CrowKilr> 15 chars is good enough
15:46:03 <kc5tja> Cache load, rather.
15:46:32 <kc5tja> So the Forth dictionary drops in size to 20K, and the Compiler dictionary drops in size to 5K.
15:47:25 <kc5tja> The realization occured to me that the CFA array is never scanned -- given an index, it's always accessed directly.  So it makes sense to coalesce the CFA and name arrays together, where a single word is described in a single 16-byte long record.
15:51:42 <CrowKilr> dont tell me no other forth ever did that before
15:53:01 <CrowKilr> this scheme achieves a goal: show the others the way it should have been teached to them in the first place, congrats ;p
15:53:33 <kc5tja> Did what before?
15:53:50 <CrowKilr> implementing this vocab handling technique
15:54:19 <CrowKilr> its novel to me, but its evident when one thinks of it
15:54:45 <CrowKilr> on x86, the 16 bytes wide array can be indexed using segment regs
15:55:24 <kc5tja> Not in 32-bit protected mode.  only in real-mode.
15:55:27 <CrowKilr> i want to have a 16 bits editor fitting in one 512 bytes sector
15:55:37 <CrowKilr> so I might use your code
15:55:38 <kc5tja> But I chose 16-bytes for a very, very, very important reason: cache line utilization.
15:56:40 <CrowKilr> One's system gotta be small enough to live in cache, performance would be incredible
15:56:56 <CrowKilr> by going native, you can put it on your product's datasheet ;o)
15:57:26 <kc5tja> Well, I'm talking about data cache utilization, not code-cache.
15:57:34 <kc5tja> The code will certainly be quite small.
15:57:47 <kc5tja> Most of my non-Forth OS kernels fit entirely in the code cache of the original Intel Pentium.
16:03:45 <CrowKilr> http://64.230.121.11
16:03:49 <CrowKilr> look at the code source
16:03:55 <CrowKilr> source code that is
16:03:57 <CrowKilr> ;p
16:06:04 <CrowKilr> hey my kb test isnt working anymore
16:07:16 <kc5tja> I just get a dump.  I don't get any keyboard input.
16:07:21 <kc5tja> No entry box or anything.
16:07:27 <kc5tja> Hello! definition
16:07:32 <kc5tja> A key handler supporting
16:07:35 <kc5tja> That's all I see.
16:08:08 <CrowKilr> please reload
16:08:19 <CrowKilr> there was rough unfinished functions in source code
16:08:46 <kc5tja> Nothing.
16:08:47 <CrowKilr> the file load function is a template on how to use netscape/gecko to read/write files through java
16:09:07 * kc5tja is using Mozilla Firebird.
16:10:11 <kc5tja> It just doesn't work for me.
16:11:10 <CrowKilr> me neither damn it worked this morning
16:11:27 <CrowKilr> and yesterday after you left i showed it to the chan
16:11:33 <ianni> dude, i dont even have a status bar :)
16:12:19 <kc5tja> I don't think it would ever work for me because of how Firebird handles the keyboard anyway.  As soon as I type something, it looks for said text in the page.
16:14:02 <CrowKilr> ianni: hehe, but its just a quick demo anyway, whats important for the editor to work is scriptable keyboard input
16:14:21 <ianni> I think DHTML is just plain unsuitable for almost everything
16:14:22 * kc5tja is reading up on SDL programming now.
16:14:41 <ianni> but your idea is an interesting one
16:15:19 <CrowKilr> it works
16:15:22 <CrowKilr> finally lol
16:15:29 <CrowKilr> viva javascript debug console ;p
16:16:36 <kc5tja> Like I said, Firebird won't work with it.  :)  Nothing you can do to fix that either.
16:19:31 <CrowKilr> it doesnt support javascript events?
16:25:23 <CrowKilr> xpi feature is nice
16:25:33 <CrowKilr> very nice indeed =)
16:26:48 <kc5tja> Sure it does.  But Firebird already uses the keyboard for its own purposes.
16:37:23 <a7r_> kc5tja: the other night, I hooked Forth into this video game some friends and I are writing.. using it for the console.
16:41:45 * kc5tja is researching the SDL API.
16:42:06 <kc5tja> Man, why can't SDL become the standard API for programming under Linux?  Or under any OS?
16:42:13 <kc5tja> It just makes sense.
16:42:47 <kc5tja> It's event distribution model is a bit limited, but its video mode API is just fantastic.
16:43:20 <kc5tja> a7r_: Hence your research into Ficl?  :)
16:47:36 <CrowKilr> lokk at directfb, i'm sure its not bad, but its pure speculation
16:49:08 <onetom> squeak over directfb... hm :/
16:50:14 <kc5tja> DirectFB is monsterous compared to SDL.
16:50:38 <kc5tja> I mean, it has an integrated windowing system built-in.
16:50:41 <kc5tja> Who wants that?
16:50:43 <kc5tja> Certainly not I.
16:51:31 <kc5tja> I do like how DirectFB uses COM to implement its objects though.  SDL is limited in that it is non-reentrant.
16:51:38 <a7r_> kc5tja: yah
16:53:31 <kc5tja> It also includes drawing primitives which means the library is much bigger than it needs to be.  I can see using an adjunct library on top of the framebuffer code, as GEM does (and it is a *sweet* setup that way too!), but integrated??
16:53:39 <kc5tja> I dislike integrated software.
17:09:11 <CrowKilr> linux got a framebuffer device
17:09:19 <CrowKilr> is it hard to program?
17:09:25 <kc5tja> Insanely.
17:09:32 <kc5tja> It's actually pretty easy to program for.
17:09:39 <kc5tja> But it's not universally supported.
17:09:51 <CrowKilr> why?
17:10:02 <kc5tja> Lack of drivers.
17:10:06 <CrowKilr> it uses bios through lilo to set video mode
17:10:14 <kc5tja> No, it doesn't.
17:10:24 <kc5tja> The video bios thing is a *hack* for older systems.
17:10:24 <CrowKilr> program video reg directly?
17:10:28 * kc5tja nods
17:10:41 <kc5tja> And, for the record, my video card does not support VESA, so even the hack won't work on my system.
17:10:54 <CrowKilr> what is your video card?
17:11:02 <kc5tja> GeForce 4 chipset.
17:11:28 <CrowKilr> they dont support vesa?! lol they're bastards from hells
17:11:37 <kc5tja> Dude, where have you been?
17:11:47 <kc5tja> Even VESA doesn't support VESA anymore.
17:12:03 <kc5tja> Read up on the VESA 3.0 standard to see how it (doesn't) compare to the VESA 2.0 standard.
17:12:18 <CrowKilr> whyyyy!!
17:12:20 <CrowKilr> ;pp
17:12:25 <CrowKilr> i read the two of em
17:12:25 <kc5tja> Because Microsoft won't have it.
17:12:27 <CrowKilr> 2 and 3.0
17:12:35 <CrowKilr> damn
17:12:37 <kc5tja> "We want all video drivers to be written for us, and for us only!"
17:12:40 <CrowKilr> it sucks
17:12:44 * kc5tja nods
17:13:14 <CrowKilr> why are those binary drivers not reversed yet???
17:13:16 <kc5tja> Standards are so nice -- there are so many to choose from!
17:13:23 <kc5tja> Because it's illegal.
17:13:28 <CrowKilr> damn 
17:13:37 <kc5tja> DMCA
17:13:47 <kc5tja> So there you have it.
17:13:54 <CrowKilr> IT SUCKS SO MUCH
17:14:08 <kc5tja> This country is the most technologically hostile country on the face of the planet.
17:14:44 <CrowKilr> not hostile, fearful
17:15:41 <CrowKilr> the documentary "Bowling at Columbine" or something like that really impressioned me
17:16:30 <kc5tja> No, outright hostile.
17:16:49 <CrowKilr> it basically describes american people as the most "manipulated into fearing everything" population of the world
17:17:00 <kc5tja> Companies here will proactively do everything in their legal power to either consume or put out of business upstarts which threaten their sacred cow.
17:17:03 <CrowKilr> okok, but the cause is monetary? fear
17:17:18 <kc5tja> Sure, fear is always the cause of hostility.
17:17:18 <CrowKilr> and the most recent NOFX album
17:17:24 <CrowKilr> almost all the way political
17:17:50 * kc5tja nods
17:18:38 <CrowKilr> Geforce 4 don't have a working framebuffer, how come? just because nvidia wont release specs?
17:18:50 <kc5tja> Correct.
17:19:01 <kc5tja> The XFree86 server I'm using is a binary-only server.
17:22:26 <kc5tja> ATI at least releases specifications, although you have to pay for them.  I understand they're somewhat on the expensive side, too.
17:23:10 <kc5tja> They are also somewhat incomplete too.
17:28:35 <CrowKilr> it sucks so much, i'm in war with DMCA
17:31:34 <kc5tja> Everyone is in a war with DMCA.  But we're losing.
17:31:43 <kc5tja> DMCA-II is just around the horizon, from what I understand.
17:31:48 <kc5tja> As is Patriot Act 2.  >:(
17:38:28 <CrowKilr> I cant believe americans buy into that FLAG crap, along with TRUE AMERICAN/COWBOY SHIT
17:38:37 <CrowKilr> the moment i see this, i know its puire disinfo
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17:41:49 <CrowKilr> poeple want to brand canada
17:42:02 <CrowKilr> i see nowadays more and more commercial crap arboring our flag
17:42:21 <CrowKilr> so much energy wasted
17:43:04 * kc5tja nods
17:43:15 <kc5tja> I'd move to Canada if it didn't get so damned cold up there.
17:43:36 <CrowKilr> The governement is a beast, feeding upon us, wasting ressources and time
17:44:01 <CrowKilr> hehe we have a winter, but with a good house no problem
17:44:18 <CrowKilr> we should abolish winter: stay home, like our ancestors
17:44:36 <CrowKilr> but the world wont wait for us, so we must move snow and keep being busy
17:45:02 <CrowKilr> i would like it so much to just enjoy winter without the huge ressource wasting
17:45:21 <CrowKilr> many "essayists" (??) have written books on that matter
17:46:01 <kc5tja> Problem is, even without a modern economy, you still have to stay busy in winter.
17:46:01 <CrowKilr> winter is hostile, we should flow with it, they even take examples from other contries
17:46:19 <kc5tja> You need to remove snow from the rooftops to keep it from caving in the house, for example, or shovel/salt sidewalks and driveways.
17:46:43 * kc5tja grew up in Utica, NY, where we not only got a lot of bad weather from Canada, we also got it from Seattle and from Florida too. :(
17:46:53 <CrowKilr> with energy independence, no problem, roofs can stand snow, we build them for that (even some flat roofs)
17:46:56 <kc5tja> Plus lake-effect snow on top of that.
17:47:05 <CrowKilr> hehe ;p
17:47:15 <kc5tja> Roofs can only take so much, no matter what.
17:47:50 <kc5tja> All it takes is that one year where you get six feet in a day, instead of the usual three or four, and if you're not prepared for it, it'll all come tumbling down.
17:48:58 <CrowKilr> hmmm, maybe for a flat roof, but with angled tole roofs, no problem
17:50:07 <kc5tja> Angled roofs are more resilient, but they can collapse too.
17:50:10 <kc5tja> It has happened in the past.
17:50:15 <kc5tja> And will happen in the future.
17:50:21 <kc5tja> All things in nature tend toward chaos.
17:50:34 <CrowKilr> you wont make me fear of snow ;p
17:50:44 <CrowKilr> i tried vector linux
17:50:59 <CrowKilr> "sure bet, its slackware 9.0 underneath"
17:51:02 <CrowKilr> yeah SURE
17:51:04 <kc5tja> uhhhhhhhhhhh -- last I checked, I wasn't trying to convince you to be fearful of snow.
17:51:09 <CrowKilr> it wont recognize my network card
17:51:19 <CrowKilr> realtek clone, or maybe original
17:51:33 <kc5tja> rtl8139 chipset is what you should be using.
17:51:35 <CrowKilr> kc5tja: i know, just jk
17:52:02 <CrowKilr> ill get the College Linux image
17:54:00 * kc5tja found a neat site: the FreeVGA project (no longer being maintained, apparently, but still seems to contain lots of good information)
17:55:11 <kc5tja> It won't contain the relavent information for accessing a linear frame buffer, but it'll be handy when configuring the video card for, say, 640x480x16 color video mode.
17:55:57 * CrowKilr just discovered by pressing zero then 4 at a phone you can have free date and time
17:56:15 <CrowKilr> yeah i saw it when i was linear frame buffers stuff a while ago
19:24:51 <CrowKilr> could the little network stack developped for 8 bit cpus used inside linux?
19:25:18 <CrowKilr> what am i saying
19:25:19 <CrowKilr> lol
19:25:36 <CrowKilr> remove the "inside linux" part
19:26:33 <CrowKilr> I really dont know how to make things go right and quick, to my personal taste; i just ahd a discussion with my mother about 12kW bedini motors and energy independance, the money as a faith system and how life should be enjoyed
19:27:16 <CrowKilr> I didnt talk to her since 1 month
19:28:17 <CrowKilr> i talked also how I could do seminars in high schools for all the school about free energy, ORME, automatic writing as a mean to access knowledge from the other side
19:28:28 <CrowKilr> seminaries in school about forth
19:28:49 <CrowKilr> free time given to our future generation, inviting them to pass their free time
19:29:06 <CrowKilr> in a good environement, with others for all to share knowledge and techniques
19:29:31 <CrowKilr> like a magician guild, as "one's magic is another one's engineering"
19:29:58 <CrowKilr> achieveing energy independance through motor-mass-generator systems would be so great
19:30:14 <CrowKilr> having cars run on that same prinicple to recharge themselves
19:30:25 <CrowKilr> like our wheel motor that got censored here in Quebec
19:30:33 <CrowKilr> I would use air instead
19:30:57 <CrowKilr> driving the system with a homemade forth electronic computer
19:31:07 <CrowKilr> hmmmmm that topic is so interesting
19:31:25 <CrowKilr> digitally controlled resistors, direct digital signal synthesis
19:31:40 <CrowKilr> all those could be brought in the system for neat tricks
19:32:08 <CrowKilr> The internet was meant to share information
19:32:16 <CrowKilr> scientific, useful information
19:32:55 <CrowKilr> having some kind of powerpoint app (there's one running on directfb) and a projector
19:33:01 <CrowKilr> wich all the school have
19:33:06 <CrowKilr> which*
19:33:28 * CrowKilr make so many typos..>!
19:33:52 <CrowKilr> i hope this will be recorded and be looked upon
19:33:57 <CrowKilr> clog is wonderful
19:34:03 <CrowKilr> FREE ENERGY
19:34:05 <CrowKilr> BEDINI
19:34:21 <CrowKilr> now everyone can get here through a word search
19:34:33 <CrowKilr> or just look at what i had to say, sorry if it was on #forth
19:53:22 <kc5tja> urg -- fell asleep
19:55:03 <CrowKilr> lol
19:55:06 <CrowKilr> im trying to explain
19:55:11 <CrowKilr> on osdev channel
19:55:13 <CrowKilr> my system
19:55:15 <CrowKilr> lol
19:55:22 <CrowKilr> with ?dup and ?#
20:08:04 <CrowKilr> hahaha i love doing that "prophetic" thing
20:08:29 <CrowKilr> prophetic interventions
20:08:40 <CrowKilr> that's how I would call them
20:09:07 <kc5tja> heheh
20:10:05 * kc5tja is getting very hungry -- I'm thinking of heading out to get some food at the local IHOP.
20:11:11 <CrowKilr> i love "pizza pizza" pizzas
20:11:25 <CrowKilr> those are great, the mediteranean one, hmmm!
20:11:36 <CrowKilr> canadian business, btw
20:11:40 <kc5tja> I'm looking for something a tad bit on the healthier side.
20:12:22 <CrowKilr> its very healthy, with 2 cheeses, apricots, peppers, anyway i feel great everytime i eat there
20:12:31 <kc5tja> IHOP makes this wonderful chicken fajita salad that is just to die for.
20:12:41 <CrowKilr> i never went to an IHOP
20:12:57 <CrowKilr> I hop I hop, to the IHOP I hop ;p
20:13:12 <kc5tja> Pizza is healthy when eaten in moderation, but it also has excessive greases and oils in it that are known to be quite fattening, among other things.
20:13:18 * CrowKilr 's thinking of sbow white dwarf song here
20:13:40 <CrowKilr> yeah i had to eat some, my girlfriend was considering me too skinny lol
20:13:56 * kc5tja is also trying to lose a fairly significant amount of weight too.
20:14:01 <CrowKilr> i went to dairy queen everyday, while doing my groceries at the local organic grocry store
20:31:00 * CrowKilr just doscovered that using two screens in a pipe can be great
20:31:18 <kc5tja> ?
20:31:18 * CrowKilr (one on top and one underneath the burnt material
20:31:27 <CrowKilr> im trying to smoke green tea
20:31:33 <CrowKilr> as seen in the totse
20:31:51 <CrowKilr> but it takes a lot, so i consider making an extract
20:31:54 <CrowKilr> and vaporizing it
20:32:06 <kc5tja> You are going to kill yourself one of these days
20:32:56 <CrowKilr> wonder about the solvent, polar/nonpolar?
20:33:05 <CrowKilr> you can be right
20:33:21 <CrowKilr> doing what i want to do with tobacco would kill me instantly
20:33:24 <kc5tja> I would suspect the essence of tea to be nonpolar -- organic compounds
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20:35:13 <CrowKilr> ill try with boiling water, boiling a great batch and parking it near the deshumidifier
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20:35:44 <gilbertdeb> hi kc
20:35:51 <kc5tja> re gilbertdeb
20:36:16 <gilbertdeb> you had some qualms about plan9 didn't you?
20:36:21 <gilbertdeb> do you remember what they were about?
20:37:16 <kc5tja> I believe that Plan/9 is an interesting system, but did not believe it could become commercially viable.
20:37:25 <gilbertdeb> ah that.
20:37:43 <gilbertdeb> from what i've seen so far it does look very minimalistic.
20:37:45 <kc5tja> Administering a Plan/9 system is just too different.
20:37:54 <gilbertdeb> the training time required?
20:38:11 <kc5tja> Training is definitely a concern, but it's security systems are somewhat different too.
20:38:43 <CrowKilr> can someone explain me what is plan9 about?
20:38:56 <CrowKilr> i tried to read the docs but they dont give it away easly
20:39:41 <gilbertdeb> CrowKilr: it is a new OS, remodeled around the timesharing ideas of old.
20:39:56 <gilbertdeb> I didn't live then so I don't know wtf that means. however they say everything is a file.
20:40:17 <gilbertdeb> and they make a lot of noise about it being very very secure for some obscure ivory tower reasons.
20:40:24 <CrowKilr> what is so different from classical UNIX?
20:40:31 <TreyB> Plan9: instead representing everything as a file, a la UNIX, they represent everything as a file system.
20:40:34 <gilbertdeb> they re-did classical unix.
20:41:21 <CrowKilr> best fs is romfs (cramfs is basically compressed romfs)
20:41:26 <kc5tja> It's an attempt to fix Unix's faults.
20:41:49 <TreyB> And they should know them, since they invented them :-)
20:41:56 <gilbertdeb> CrowKilr: burn the iso and give the CD a spin. if you're lucky, you'll get to run the demo.
20:42:04 <kc5tja> And, every process has its own filesystem root -- resources are granted to processes by symbolic links to into the parent process' resources.
20:42:06 <gilbertdeb> it also isn't as complicated as unix is.
20:42:43 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: In and of itself, perhaps not.  I can't judge.  But the software they support the environment with certainly is.  Limbo is just pathetic.
20:42:56 <gilbertdeb> ah limbo belongs to inferno.
20:43:05 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: They developed it originally with Plan/9.
20:43:06 <gilbertdeb> the plan9 4.0 is very very pared down.
20:43:12 <gilbertdeb> it does'nt even come with alef anymore.
20:43:28 <kc5tja> Yeah, that's another thing that should never have seen the light of day.
20:43:31 <gilbertdeb> ... nor does it even come with a web browser.
20:44:05 <kc5tja> No thanks.  I'll stick with Linux for the time being, and Forth later on.  :)
20:44:57 * kc5tja does find its remote filesystem protocol to be interesting though.
20:44:58 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: have you seen acme though?
20:45:06 <gilbertdeb> I rather like the way it handles.
20:45:08 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Is that the text editor for it?
20:45:14 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
20:45:18 <gilbertdeb> really nice.
20:45:18 * kc5tja vomited when I tried it.
20:45:23 <kc5tja> I hate it.
20:45:23 <gilbertdeb> heheh
20:45:29 <gilbertdeb> why is that?
20:45:32 <kc5tja> It sucks.
20:46:04 <gilbertdeb> hmm. I tend to think ed is elegant...
20:46:11 <gilbertdeb> and I can do anything in ed in there as well.
20:46:14 <gilbertdeb> and then some.
20:46:22 * kc5tja doesn't use ed -- I use vi.
20:46:33 <kc5tja> And, in particular, vim.
20:46:37 <gilbertdeb> the second you hit that <esc> key, you're in full blown ed ;)
20:46:45 * CrowKilr use nano and pico
20:46:49 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Sorry, that is not true
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20:47:10 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: then what happens?
20:47:18 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: You are confused with :-mode in VI, which is the ex (not ed!) command-line.
20:47:29 <gilbertdeb> sure they call it ex but ... that is just a superset of ed's commands.
20:47:37 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Command mode is just that -- command mode.  Hit ESC, and the keyboard becomes a set of interactive commands, not a command-line.
20:47:52 <kc5tja> And, finally, I do not do all of my editing with ex.
20:48:08 <kc5tja> In fact, the only time I use ex-mode is when doing a global search and replace.  That's it.
20:48:34 <kc5tja> Oh, sometimes I'll use it to map key-bindings to often-used commands too, but . . . I cannot think of a single time I've ever used ex for anything non-trivial.  Ever.
20:49:19 <gilbertdeb> what do you use for non-trivial stuff then?
20:49:28 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: VI
20:49:34 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
20:50:03 * kc5tja notes that VIBE, the VI-like Block Editor, does not have :-mode.
20:50:43 <kc5tja> Although, I've considered putting one in, to enable me to run arbitrary Forth commands from within the editor without having to change the block's current contents.
20:52:50 <kc5tja> At any rate, I do not like acme.
20:52:58 <kc5tja> But, that being said, I must depart.
20:53:13 <gilbertdeb> give it one more spin.
20:53:21 <gilbertdeb> just one ...
20:53:23 <kc5tja> No thanks.
20:53:34 <gilbertdeb> ack.
20:53:43 <kc5tja> I'm perfectly happy with vim right now.  
20:54:04 <gilbertdeb> vim remains an awesome editor.
20:54:51 <tathi> yup yup
20:55:34 * kc5tja has to go now.  People are waiting for me.
20:55:38 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-away
20:55:39 <gilbertdeb> ciao.
20:57:35 <tathi> aha!
20:57:48 <tathi> yay for source code
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22:01:53 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
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22:31:30 <CrowKilr> hi
22:32:14 --- nick: CrowKilr -> SuperDuper
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22:35:12 <segr_ghost> so what's the funny nick ?
22:35:22 <segr_ghost> like to shoot at crows ?
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