00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.07.14 00:00:38 and pages might be misordered, esp. if it jammed in scanner and was resumed by hand 00:01:09 * kc5tja nods 00:04:06 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 00:04:07 re.. 00:04:31 Hey a7r -- bad news dude. VIBE 2.0 has a critical bug in it -- it'll overflow the data stack if you use it long enough. 00:04:40 I uploaded an update to the #forth site. 00:04:52 werd, I'll check it out. 00:05:05 btw, i managed to start it, but my box lacks ANSI driver ;((( 00:05:07 I just got gforth up on this OS X box, so I have another Forth environment to compare with. 00:05:11 so it's unusable 00:05:47 a7r: Cool. it should work fine for you then. It's pure gforth anyway. 00:05:55 Serg_Penguin: You lack an ANSI.SYS driver? 00:06:08 Aren't there public domain versions/replacements available? 00:08:32 on win2k ? 00:08:38 not have one anyway 00:08:47 oops, winXP 00:08:59 umm...winXP should have ANSI.SYS built-in. 00:09:07 Not sure what version of XP you have, but MINE does at least. 00:09:19 but it types codes, not executes 00:09:32 i got professional\corporate 00:09:37 :/ 00:17:45 i got a Norton-like commander, console win32 app 00:17:54 mauybe, it messes with ? 00:20:05 It shouldn't. 00:20:28 Hmm....you know, I'm wondering if gforth for DOS/Windows uses BIOS to print characters to the screen instead of DOS services. 00:20:38 If so, it'll bypass the ANSI driver completely. 00:21:11 so, i gotta get win32 console gforth ? 00:21:42 BTW, can it build little 'turnkey' apps ? 00:21:49 No, it cannot as far as I know. 00:22:13 ;(( 00:22:20 so not worth download ;(( 00:22:33 re: console gforth -- I would ask on comp.lang.forth at this point. I really can't help much further with it -- if it doesn't use DOS API to print text to the screen, then it likely won't ever support ANSI control codes. 00:23:05 hey, but it's open-source and written in C, yeah ? 00:23:19 just compile it w/ right stdlib - and it's OK 00:23:28 * kc5tja nods 00:23:31 Should be, yeah. 00:23:39 w/ stdlib what uses console, not bios 00:23:46 But the author of gforth, Anton Ertl, is on that newsgroup. He can help you a lot better than I can. 00:24:19 But, still, you don't *need* GForth to use my editor. It's written for GForth, but it should be easy to port to other platforms easily. 00:24:46 The only real ANSI-generating word is AT-XY, which moves the cursor, and PAGE, which clears the screen. That's it. 00:24:54 Everything else is lock, stock, and barrel standard Forth. 00:25:21 I do use FIND to do dictionary lookups. You might need to shimmy that for your own Forth environment. But still, that ought not to be too hard. 00:25:28 your editor is cute piece of code, but hardly may i need a block one 00:25:37 * kc5tja nods 00:42:43 * Serg_Penguin now trying to find an answer on some stupid JavaScript question 00:44:04 Yet another good idea gone sour. Such a senseless waste of a perfectly good technology. 00:44:25 ?? 00:44:50 my picture pump is buggy - i generate page w/ all the pics, but it fails to save ;(( 00:45:07 Prototypical object model, instead of traditional class/object model. But it's wasted in a scripting language for web browsers. 00:47:56 Well, I should get to bed. 00:47:57 1AM here. 00:48:07 ok, bye 00:48:34 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:57:55 --- nick: w1k1_ -> w1k1 01:06:27 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:24:08 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 03:45:45 --- quit: XeF4 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:48:57 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 03:49:39 --- quit: XeF4 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:49:54 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 03:54:47 --- quit: skylan (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:54:47 --- quit: Klaw (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 03:55:04 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 03:55:04 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4475.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 03:55:04 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-99-187-95.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 03:56:20 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 04:41:34 --- join: w1k1_ (~w1k1@pD9E5951C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:01:56 --- quit: w1k1 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:16:17 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h126n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:27:51 --- join: w1k1__ (~w1k1@pD9545985.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:27:56 hi 05:28:07 --- quit: w1k1__ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:28:24 --- join: w1k1 (~w1k1@pD9545985.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:36:21 --- quit: w1k1_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:59:36 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 07:02:15 zzz 07:03:46 --- join: draq (ident@203-219-179-14-nsw.tpgi.com.au) joined #forth 07:27:13 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 07:35:37 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-97.phnet.fi) joined #forth 07:55:35 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:57:44 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-97.phnet.fi) joined #forth 08:18:17 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:27:47 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:28:39 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:29:20 --- quit: mur (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:45:34 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4590.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 08:48:40 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 08:58:19 --- quit: draq ("crash time: well ..what a nice shade of blue") 09:45:12 --- join: wog (somebody@h002078ca8395.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 10:05:20 cow 10:05:30 Sure.. 10:30:11 --- quit: w1k1 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:30:11 --- quit: XeF4 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 10:30:24 --- join: w1k1 (~w1k1@pD9545985.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:30:24 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 10:43:08 heh, I just commited revision 404 :) I thought that was an http error for a seccond... 10:55:56 Heh 10:56:25 Whenever I come to page 404 of a book, I react on that.. 11:00:17 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 11:01:49 Hi a7r 11:01:56 hey Robert 11:09:58 ok, now I have shadow blocks 11:10:10 elite. 11:10:50 I could probably spend 40 hours a week on my forth without getting bored. if only I could do that instead of my job. 11:20:36 If I only had that much time to spend on my personal projects. *sigh* 11:22:30 you guys need to turn this shit into a product you can sell. 11:24:37 why bother if it's shit? 11:24:44 haha 11:24:53 well, I'm making some assumptions about it not being crap. 11:25:07 you _did_ say.. 11:25:43 s/shit/stuff/ <- that grok better? :) 11:26:30 lol 11:26:48 TreyB: I don't have that much time for it either, but I would if I didn't have to work 11:27:13 * TreyB prefers the cash flow that a steady job brings, at the moment. 11:27:38 a7r: yes, much.. 11:44:00 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 11:44:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 11:55:36 --- join: divgrad (~wer@194.158.208.64) joined #forth 12:00:41 --- part: divgrad left #forth 12:27:40 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-189-219.phnet.fi) joined #forth 12:29:11 welcome mur 12:29:14 hey 12:29:26 lost electricity: / 12:33:18 bugger 12:34:10 I haven't had that since I tripped the breaker by having AC, microwave, popcorn poper and two computers on the same circut 12:34:40 now I know that all these outlets are on the same circut :) 12:34:49 do you have UPS for microwave? :) 12:35:52 no, just for our computers 12:37:07 our= 12:37:08 ? 12:37:20 what is the time? 12:37:43 i feel fsking dirty i haven't been in shower for 38 hours 12:37:58 Ah, so THAT'S where that smell is coming from... :D 12:38:13 i coudl go to shower. but my sister's friend is here and i dont wish to go there then 12:38:14 * kc5tja has 12:39 PM. 12:38:25 /ctcp mur time 12:38:28 ;) 12:38:34 11 pm or such it says 12:38:41 i dont know if that is correct or not 12:39:02 I sincerely, utterly, doubt it. :) 12:39:11 Unless you were 24 hours away from me. :) 12:39:33 Oops. I thought that read AM. Sorry. 12:39:39 ;) 12:39:40 p and a look similar in this font. 12:45:14 22:44 12:45:25 Good evening all :) 12:45:56 hello Robert. 12:46:58 kc5tja: CET.. one hour behind those finns. :) 12:47:40 Herkamire, skylan, and ianni look to be like the only people in the continental USA. 12:47:50 Oh, and me. 12:48:06 Ooops, scratch that. 12:48:27 Klaw, a7r, clog, Herkamire, skylan, and ianni. 12:48:31 And me. Again. :) 12:48:46 I'll stop now while I'm still ahead. 12:49:08 "only", heh. :) 13:13:41 another hint to us americans that we are not the majority of the world 13:16:30 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-Sherbrooke-ppp79479.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:18:12 * kc5tja nods 13:18:32 I was listening to some European ham radio the other day, and I couldn't help but feel *so* *stupid*. 13:19:21 Not being able to speak any language other than English, let alone the sheer multitude of other languages I was hearing, just made me depressed. :) 13:21:35 with ~6000 languages in the world you can't expect to learn them _all_ 13:21:52 so there will always be some you don't understand =P 13:31:55 Fine. 13:32:08 But I know only ONE, but 5999 more are around me. 13:32:51 I just know Swedish and English... and enough German to order an ice-cream. 13:33:50 Rob: do you start to feel very ill after a few days in Germany? =D 13:35:49 Nah, it's a nice country. 13:36:04 And I understand simple texts, I just can't speak/understand spoken German. 13:36:13 yes, but eating only ice cream all the time.. 13:36:18 :D 13:36:21 Right.. 13:36:31 and German ice cream with gelatine and everything else. 13:36:59 You know... all the cheap candy you can find in Sweden comes from Germany, for some reason. 13:37:24 Superior German engineering. 13:37:36 Ehm.. right. 13:37:39 :) 13:38:41 I believe most of the wind turbines found in wind generators come from Germany and Sweden now-a-days. 13:39:24 Tomorrow they'll be coming from Taiwan. 13:39:38 Doubtful. 13:39:49 This has been going on for years and years. 13:40:04 Taiwan has absolutely no wind-energy program that I'm aware of. 13:40:42 That doesn't stop them from producing parts for it. 13:41:09 damn taiwanese 13:42:48 Frankly, I have no problems with Taiwanese production facilities. 13:42:54 It's the Chinese production facilities that I won't buy from. 13:43:22 because of Chinese production conditions or the typical quality of Chinese products? 13:44:12 hmmm 13:44:18 Both? 13:44:43 kc5tja, so you dont use any brand product 13:44:52 all those are made in sweatshops 13:46:41 XeF4: Production conditions. 13:47:15 most worst products can be seen at www.adbusters.org 13:48:01 Taiwan is trying hard to become recognized as a soverign(sp?) nation, with its own free government. China, of course, utterly overshadows them, and tries on a daily basis to integrate Taiwan as a Communist region. 13:48:45 let's hope they succeed so they can quit trying and we can all buy Chinese products again 13:49:16 mur: I use tons of brand products. The same brand products you use, for the most part. My issue is: I'd rather help support a country trying to become a free nation on their own, than supporting a Communist behemoth that has zero concern for human rights. 13:49:52 that's stupid 13:49:59 you are afraid of communists 13:50:05 the rest is foo 13:50:19 the fear Propaganda ministers seed is still grow 13:50:23 mur: That is a baseless statement, and I demand an apology. 13:50:24 good tool for administration 13:50:48 is communism worser than neocapitalism? 13:51:09 mur: In theory no. In practice, however, yes. 13:51:22 China has the worst record for human rights preservation in the world. 13:51:35 Hands down. Even Soviet Russia was head and shoulders above China. 13:51:37 kc5: I'd rather support local production than support a state striving to maintain some independence. 13:51:47 XeF4: We don't have local production. 13:52:26 what are the good points of chinese govt then? 13:52:35 there is always somethign good if there is bad 13:53:33 kc5: there is not a single producer of wind turbines in your entire country? 13:53:38 mur: They lasted with some degree of stability. 13:53:56 that is not humane meter 13:54:02 XeF4: I'm sure there are. But the focus of the argument has changed. We're no longer talking about wind turbines in particular. 13:54:21 mur: You didn't ask for a humane meter. 13:54:29 but you used it in first 13:54:34 So? 13:54:39 those are not comparable with each other 13:54:54 You are so naive. 13:55:00 They most certainly are too comparable. 13:55:18 There is always a benefit for some cost. 13:55:29 **NOTHING** says that the cost and benefit have to be the same kind fo thing. 13:55:36 what woudl you say for good and bad thing about USA then? 13:55:38 Cause and effect. 13:56:08 Good thing about USA: Relatively large amounts of personal freedoms. Certainly more than in most other countries. 13:56:47 Bad thing about USA: (direct result) USA lacks a culture I can be proud of, and which most other people can be proud of. The "Cowboy Culture" that America currently has has ruined our public perception in everyone else's eyes, and has wrought unnecessary harm to other countries. 13:57:21 and we're increadibly wasteful of natural resources 13:57:34 Yeah, that too. But even that is related. 13:57:40 yep 13:57:52 We wouldn't be nearly so wasteful if everyone woke up and realized, "Hey, we can't exploit other countries' resources forever." 13:58:12 Everyone makes fun of us because we drive such big cars. 13:58:25 Sure you can, you just need more effective ways to control the other countries! 13:58:29 people are to frantically worried about their bank balance to do anything good for the ecosystem 13:58:31 I got news for you -- I fscking **HATE** SUVs and their drivers (most cases; not everyone is like this). 13:58:50 Hehe. 13:58:57 Their big, fat-ass vehicles do *NOT* drive like a sports car, and you can see the damn things fucking ROLL every time they make a SLOW-speed turn. 13:58:59 for the most part yes. 13:59:34 it amazes me that people actually fall for TV ads 13:59:35 So why must they (a) NOT look where the fuck they're going (Christ, they're at least 1m higher than everyone else on the road for better visibility), and (b) cut people like me [who drive small, sporty cars] off on the freeway, and (c) drive those things at 100MPH or faster? 13:59:47 what has a local traffic problem to do with anything? 14:00:02 It's representative of the national ethic, that's what. 14:00:21 we're talking about how we americans have to culture 14:00:25 it's pathetic 14:00:26 Waste and irresponsibility. 14:00:55 we think something is cool and worth throwing away $10,000 on (such as an SUV) because TV ads make it look cool 14:01:11 the difference between a "small sporty car" and an SUV is still tiny compared to the difference between a "small sporty car" and a pair of feet+sane city layout 14:01:17 SUVs are not cool. there's nothing cool about them. 14:01:31 I greatly admire the Japanese for their tradition and their ethic. Everything they do, they do with *precision*, and an emphasis on as little waste as possible. 14:01:47 they are loud, expensive, ugly. in the majority of cases, people would have much more fun and live much cheaper with a small car. 14:02:22 XeF4: I drive a small sporty car because I drive very long distances at very high speeds (you have to here). And, because I am awake at the wheel, they're safer (I can zip around problem spots where an SUV driver just plows right into them). 14:03:20 I also find the recumbent position they offer is head and shoulders more comfortable. 14:03:42 You also apparently assume that all my dealings occur within one city. 14:03:45 (which is false) 14:04:22 * kc5tja nods to Herkamire 14:05:08 kc5: I assume by the people:cars ratio that at least most car owners use them mostly in one city 14:05:20 kc5: which assumes nothing about you in particular 14:05:49 except that you seemed to advocate the use of small cars 14:06:49 XeF4: Yes, I do. Being closer to the ground is *MUCH* safer than being high-up in a wobbley, topsy-turvy vehicle on today's freeways. 14:07:33 XeF4: I remember driving home from my aikido seminar, there was an SUV that flipped. The driver was killed. I didn't see it happen, but I was caught in the traffic jam that it created. 14:07:44 Note that no other car was involved. 14:07:50 What happened? Why did it flip? 14:07:57 Well, on the news later that night, I found out: 14:08:28 An animal ran across the freeway, and the driver wanted to avoid it. She whipped the wheel to one side, which caused the SUV to lean the other way, hard. 14:08:57 If she had just braked, she would have been fine. But no, she thought it was a normal car, apparently, and without braking, whipped the wheel the other way to bring the car back into her previous lane. 14:09:15 The SUV was still leaning the other way, however, and the whip caused the vehicle to flip itself over. 14:09:49 Unfortunately, since SUVs aren't built like Hummers anymore, the thing rolled twice, and crushed the roof onto the driver, breaking her neck. She had *no* idea what happened to her. 14:10:06 Lots of broken glass, no blood, and no other cars were involved. 14:10:14 BTW, the animal did NOT survive. 14:10:23 (I suppose there was blood from the animal) 14:12:10 This sort of thing happens about four times a year. It's *pathetic*. You'd think people would learn how to drive these things. 14:12:44 More frequently, an SUV involves another car, usually in another lane, because the SUV driver merges into another lane while thinking that there was enough room (of course, there usually isn't). 14:12:55 Again, the driver thinks the SUV is "just another car." 14:13:19 4 a year out of what.. a million idiots driving at dangerously high speeds? that's suprprisingly low 14:13:46 Did you not read anything I wrote? 14:13:54 I quoted just **one** source of accidents. 14:14:03 What makes you think that it was all-encompassing? 14:14:16 misread, sorry. 14:14:36 It's infuriating to me how many auto accidents involve SUVs. 14:15:06 SUV + 80MPH freeway travel = trouble ahead, almost guaranteed. 14:15:54 When I went up to the aikido seminar on the first day, my driver (we carpooled that day) was doing 95MPH in his Ford Expedition. That damn thing leaned left and right with every lane change. I thought I was going to get sea sick. 14:16:43 Nope -- sports cars for me. Low center of gravity, overwhelmingly superior suspensions, 100% responsive steering, small size for better space estimation, and substantially reduced blind spots all contribute to much safer driving. 14:17:06 And they don't need to be muscle cars either. I'm not talking Corvettes or the like. 14:17:32 My particular RX-7 only has a 150HP engine -- not the fastest car on the road. 14:17:41 But it can corner like a dream. 14:30:59 Here some bit of humor related to the above: 14:31:12 Anti-SUV Hater Page: http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster70.html 14:31:23 Read that first. Then read this to get a sense of scale and perspective: 14:31:29 http://poseur.4x4.org/futuresuv.html 14:31:34 :P 14:47:37 fun stuff (re futuresuv.html) 14:48:34 I don't know if most americans know this, but small cars are fun to drive. 14:48:43 there's a reason that sports cars are small 14:48:53 future SUV kills two times more pedestrians? 14:49:01 consumes more than you can afford 14:49:13 and is larger than your garage? 14:51:54 nah, future SUV is so high off the ground it passes safely over pedestrians without hitting anyone 14:52:03 --- quit: Herkamire ("crap, gotta go") 14:52:09 er, that was a bit redundant sentence, but anyway.. 14:53:33 XeF4: Heheh :) I like that interpretation. 15:59:59 --- quit: wossname ("lollercaust") 16:25:36 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-away 17:49:35 --- join: Fractal (bron@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 17:51:25 --- part: mur left #forth 18:53:22 Hi Fractal 18:53:30 Haven't seen you in a while. 19:01:29 --- quit: wog (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:03:03 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:25:58 --- join: whee (bph8876@grace.isc.rit.edu) joined #forth 19:27:25 Wheee! 19:27:46 hi 19:38:17 what's a good forth environment to use to learn? :\ 19:38:21 * a7r is away: auto accident 19:38:29 whee: What system do you use? 19:38:33 so far I'm looking at pfe 19:38:46 Robert: OS X at the moment 19:38:52 Oh.. 19:38:57 yeah :) 19:39:07 Then I can't help you, sorry. 19:39:35 Unless you get yourself a power-wasting, bloated and 8086-compatible x86 CPU. 19:39:49 I have one of those, but heh 19:40:14 I mostly use IsForth, in Linux. 19:40:22 But it only runs at Linux for x86, so.. 19:43:35 hmm 19:47:37 Night 20:09:06 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4814.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 20:18:14 http://www.bio-bot.com/projects/tripeoddpiccies.htm 20:18:40 why does that look like an airport base station D: 20:32:28 a little more mobility and it'd make a nifty wireless hub 22:08:49 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:09:00 hi 22:24:26 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 22:53:26 --- nick: kc-away -> kc5tja 22:53:37 Back 22:53:39 (for now) 22:59:16 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:59:25 re 23:06:18 Howdy 23:08:57 'grafix' i mean either BASIC-like (point, line etc), either some standard lib (OpenGL, DirectX, xlib) 23:09:23 * kc5tja nods 23:09:37 Win32Forth talks to the Windows GDI interface. 23:09:49 BigForth for Linux talks to X11, and has its own widget toolkit. 23:09:58 anyway, i may do it to array and then save as PNM or BMP 23:10:11 gforth itself has nothing. It's designed for maximum portability across GNU-based systems. 23:10:26 * kc5tja nods -- that's certainly a possibility. 23:10:56 * kc5tja has often consider just using plain-vanilla VNC to emulate a more sophisticated windowing environment. 23:11:01 s/consider/considered/ 23:11:11 VNC ? 23:11:20 Virtual Network Computing 23:11:36 A VNC server is a program that exposes a virtual framebuffer over the network. 23:11:48 A VNC client communicates with the server to render the framebuffer on the client's screen. 23:12:12 In my system, each running program would be its own VNC server, each with its own virtual framebuffer. 23:12:27 The VNC "client" would be the operating system's user interface. 23:13:20 utter mess... don't get 23:13:27 Then I realized it was 100% the same as maintaining a scene graph of bitmaps, and that led me further to just plain using scene graphs with more abstract primitives. 23:13:34 I don't see what is so confusing. 23:13:38 You have a server and a client. 23:13:43 stop 23:14:08 'client' has screen, 'server' has picture to show, yes ? or SWAP ? 23:14:19 Yes 23:15:24 so 'client' may be only a screen and netcard, and 'server' is a big box running many apps for thin clients ? 23:15:29 just terminal ? 23:15:41 Yes. VNC is a graphical telnet of sorts. 23:16:24 heh... but how the picture is formed ? by X11 ? or corrent foreground proggie has all the screen ? 23:16:34 cUrrent 23:16:37 Whatever you want. 23:16:46 I have VNC viewers for Windows and X11. 23:17:17 The remote side is usually contained in a window on the client. 23:17:44 hmm.. if i run,say, 50 X servers on a big box, they'll share 1 memory, ex for framebuffers ? 23:18:23 An X server runs on the user's machine, not on the central computer. 23:19:06 oooooooooooops, so where the picture (to be transmitted over net ?) is rendered ? 23:19:16 Starting over.... 23:19:36 A VNC server is a program that exposes a virtual framebuffer over the network. 23:19:49 --- quit: a7r (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:19:49 --- quit: Klaw (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:20:00 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 23:20:00 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-99-187-95.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 23:20:03 damn, i better read a doc if i need 23:20:04 A VNC client is a program that connects to a VNC server, and renders the virtual framebuffer on the local screen. 23:20:25 --- quit: Fractal (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:20:37 --- join: Fractal (bron@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 23:20:37 so, both are at 1 box ? 23:20:38 It's like a graphical telnet: you "attach" to the server, and a window appears with the server's desktop (or whatever) on it. 23:21:07 If you so desire both to reside on the same box, then sure. 23:21:08 --- quit: TreyB (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:21:08 --- quit: whee (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:21:11 If you don't, then no. 23:21:18 --- join: whee (bph8876@grace.isc.rit.edu) joined #forth 23:21:18 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:21:56 so, server sends pic to client, client sends keys/rat to server, y ? 23:22:15 Correct. 23:22:52 so, we have: 23:22:58 And it's a dead simple protocol to implement too. I insist it's even easier than Telnet. 23:23:00 --- quit: XeF4 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: w1k1 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: TreyB (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: whee (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: Fractal (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: Klaw (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:00 --- quit: a7r (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: ChanServ (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: skylan (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: kc5tja (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: Robert (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: onetom (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:01 --- quit: ianni (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:23:13 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: whee (bph8876@grace.isc.rit.edu) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: Fractal (bron@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-99-187-95.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4814.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: w1k1 (~w1k1@pD9545985.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h126n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: onetom (~root@cab.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 23:23:13 --- mode: leguin.freenode.net set +oo kc5tja ChanServ 23:23:22 user-VNC client----------(net)---------VNC server-application 23:23:36 so, what is i-face between VNC server and app? 23:23:50 There are two answers. 23:24:18 1) The application is its own VNC server; hence, it serves up its own frame buffer. The interface is direct. 23:24:42 2) The application is a normal Win32 or X11 application. The VNC server simply grabs its frame buffer data from what the operating system has already rendered. 23:25:27 booms... OS has 1 fb=1 gfx card, what if we want 30 servers-clients ? 23:25:36 VNC servers for Linux are typically X servers. 23:25:45 Serg_Penguin: For Windows, you can't. 23:25:57 special Xserver, w/ network instead of CRT ? 23:26:01 Serg_Penguin: For Linux, just run 30 instances of the VNC server. 23:26:06 * kc5tja nods 23:26:20 --- quit: XeF4 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:26:20 --- quit: w1k1 (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:26:32 --- join: w1k1 (~w1k1@pD9545985.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 23:26:32 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 23:26:40 what w/ memory and CPU ? 30 X is a big deal 23:26:55 Only because X is a big deal. 23:27:21 anything lighter ? 23:27:23 VNC's protocol is brain-dead simple. It makes Telnet look awfully complex in comparison. 23:27:39 and what w/ traffic ? 23:27:58 it seems to suck my 800MB/month in a minute ;(( 23:28:18 It depends on the application in question. VNC updates only the part of the screen that actually has changed. So, it's best if you do not run any games or animations-- things like that. 23:28:28 But remote X is equally horrible about network bandwidth. 23:28:37 compression ? 23:28:57 In my experience, VNC is faster on a LAN than remote X11 is for most applications. 23:29:25 * Serg_Penguin dislike GFX i-faces 23:29:31 VNC systems have minimal compression in them; VNC permits other forms of compression between compatible clients and servers. 23:29:39 I love them. 23:29:57 Text mode is singularly uesless for nearly everything I want to do. 23:30:25 * Serg_Penguin loves commandline and Norton/Midnight/Far commanders 23:30:49 ummm....graphical interfaces are not mutually exclusive with command-line environments. 23:30:53 Witness AmigaOS. 23:30:57 Witness ColorForth. 23:31:06 Witness DomainOS. 23:31:28 Just because Microsoft Windows and X11 are all googley-eyed over imitating a Macintosh does not mean that the concept of graphical terminals is invalid. 23:32:59 you right !!! speccy rulez, it was 1st to have GFX and text on screen at once 23:33:34 I question that assertion. Maybe the first below a certain price point, but I doubt it was the first. 23:33:43 but, i prefer to send text only then i read, write, code etc.. 23:33:59 the first mass thing ;) 23:34:09 Well, I agree. Tiled representations of graphical data (which is what a text-mode display is) is definitely faster. 23:34:16 This is why I like scene-graph technologies. 23:34:29 scene-grapth ? 23:35:00 In a scene graph, I can just declare the existance of a rectangular region on the screen that says, "Contained herein is a region of text. Use fixed-width font, N pixels tall." 23:35:18 BTW, i would like to have one app at full screen at a time, w/ hardware char generator in all modes 23:35:22 The data contained within is pure text. It's up to the rendering subsystem (which does NOT involve a network at all) to render it properly. 23:35:34 ok, got it, good thing ! 23:36:24 But the scene graph permits other types of graphics on the screen as well. Oh, and "windows" are automatic. Because the scene graph is usually arranged as a fancy tree, you can move things around the screen by adjust the coordinates of the root node for the objects you want to move. It's all *very* simple. 23:36:42 good thing 23:36:51 THe only disadvantage is that it does have a memory overhead (two copies of objects on the screen: one [compressed] in the graph, and one in the bitmap). 23:37:13 But that's a very minor detail in practice. 23:37:24 Heh, especially for Forth systems. 23:37:47 With code only taking some 5K to 10K tops for most applications, I think I can afford the few hundred KB for framebuffer and scene graph combination. :D 23:44:39 GFX interface w/ CPU char rendering is an overkill for most of my tasks, like IRC 23:44:51 The Atari 7800 had hardware acceleration (basically, an unlimited number of sprites -- limited only by memory bandwidth). 23:45:14 But, realistically speaking, things happen so fast that it makes no difference to me. 23:45:55 it makes difference to code 23:46:08 Minor at best. 23:47:08 Believe it or not, the bitmapped framebuffer really is the most natural way to represent visual data to the computer. 23:47:33 hi all 23:47:34 Tiled representations add quite a bit of hardware overhead to the graphics subsystem. 23:47:44 re onetom 23:47:59 MOV or OUT or INT is simpler than damn X or win api 23:48:25 Serg_Penguin: Yes. This is why ColorForth renders directly to a framebuffer. 23:48:36 ColorForth doesn't use X11. Not even XcolorForth uses X11 calls to render. 23:48:45 * onetom is writing a color editor in gforth 23:48:51 any1 interested? 23:49:18 XcolorForth works by periodically calling SDL_Sync() to synchronize ColorForth's framebuffer with the screen's contents. 23:49:34 onetom: How are you doing this? gforth has no standard facilities for color. 23:50:01 Do you just output ANSI color codes directly? 23:50:40 kc5tja: sure. 23:50:53 its not too portable 23:50:56 but who cares 23:51:08 onetom: Block storage or file? 23:51:15 its easy 2 adapt coz its conscise 23:51:25 onetom: As long as the color-changing words are well factored, it shouldn't be a critical issue. 23:52:18 Dude, I *so* wish gforth had MARK and EMPTY. I really, *really*, REALLY, hate ANSI's MARKER system for recycling dictionary space. 23:53:09 so write it ! 23:53:25 * Serg_Penguin wrote all new control structures 4 my favorite forth 23:53:27 Serg_Penguin: It won't fit seamlessly into the environment. 23:53:53 what's 4 recycling, FORGET is enough 4 me 23:53:55 I can make it sorta work, but it requires file interpretation (or block LOADing) to work. 23:54:31 The problem with FORGET is you must know what word you're FORGETing in advance. 23:54:55 The other problem with FORGET is that it parses from the input stream, making it utterly and absolutely impossible to use inside a colon definition. 23:55:19 These two things make managing overlays in Forth substantially more difficult than they need be. 23:55:28 : unplug " forget plugin" load ; 23:55:41 huh? 23:55:50 Explain? 23:56:12 compile string "forget plugin" and then interpret it 23:56:36 * Serg_Penguin 's forth is far from any standard 23:56:47 Yes, and when it returns, then what? It's returning to code that doesn't exist anymore. 23:57:18 Also, shouldn't LOAD be called something else, like INTERPRET or EVALUATE? LOAD implies that it's loading from secondary storage. 23:57:24 (well, in English at least; not sure in Russian) 23:57:54 RU author of gp-forth had _terrific_ english 23:58:14 At this point, it's a matter of opinion. :) 23:58:33 I disagree with his connotation of the word LOAD. :) 23:58:57 his compile-time messages were tongue-tie, i corrected them w/ hex editor coz they were pain to see 23:59:13 At first, I thought "forget plugin" was the name of a file which is LOADed and executed. 23:59:57 Tongue-ties? 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.07.14