00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.07.13
00:18:18 <kc5tja> Back
00:18:21 <kc5tja> Gahh, gone.
00:30:31 <kc5tja> bugger -- I have one hell of a stiff neck right now.  :(
00:31:10 <kc5tja> Oh well, guess I should head off to bed.
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03:22:28 <Stepan> sure, if you try to write forth in C you end up in badly written C
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04:45:54 <onetom> re
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05:02:50 <onetom> anybody interested in a textbased coloreditor for gforth?
05:03:01 <onetom> coz im just developing one rightnow
05:08:12 <draq> sounds interesting but I am less than a newbie: whats gforth?
05:27:51 <onetom> gnu forth
05:28:28 <onetom> it runs on linux and dos , etc
05:30:44 <draq> so color editor is a editor that uses colors? or changes colors?
05:33:32 <onetom> it is suitable for producing source text for color forthes
05:33:42 <onetom> colorforth.com
05:34:15 <onetom> or google: enth flux
05:34:28 <onetom> me & my father use flux
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08:14:19 <onetom> Robert: hahaa!
08:15:00 <onetom> dont u have some time 2 help me hacking/testing my coloreditor 4 gforth_
08:15:03 <onetom> ?
08:32:45 <draq> good nite nice hanging here once i replace this shit deathstarr ibm hd i will be back
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08:47:28 <Robert> onetom: Hi
08:47:38 <Robert> Why do you laugh at me?
08:48:01 <Robert> I'd really like a color editor, yes :)
09:31:23 <onetom> do i_
09:31:25 <onetom> ?
09:31:36 <onetom> i was just happy 2 c u
09:32:40 <onetom> Robert: currently it displays color source
09:33:29 <onetom> and i have a function & cursor movement key recogniser module
09:34:44 <onetom> so i can move the cursor over the screen - independently from the text at the moment - and i can use pgup & pgdn to navigate through the blocks
09:37:13 <Robert> 17:14:17 < onetom> Robert: hahaa!
09:37:24 <Robert> Hmm.. OK then.
09:37:38 <Robert> Well, I'm going to be away for a while, bbl
09:38:16 <onetom> me 2
09:38:36 <onetom> whats ur email addr?
09:39:25 <onetom> should i refer 2 robert.zizi.org?
09:48:59 <Robert> robost@telia.com
09:49:05 <Robert> Why?
09:49:15 <Robert> You could tell them about robert.zizi.org, sure.
09:49:21 <Robert> Whoever you are refering to :)
09:49:25 <Robert> Now I'm leaving for real.
10:52:46 <onetom> ah, i also have  to go
10:52:56 <onetom> c u 2morrow
10:53:08 <onetom> im gonna mail u the editor sources
10:53:18 <onetom> 2morrow
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11:28:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
11:29:51 <Robert> Hi
11:29:56 <kc5tja> Howdy
11:30:11 <kc5tja> Do not disconnect if you want to remain on IRC.  The domain name system is having "issues."
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11:31:06 <Robert> Hehe... I won't.
11:31:21 <Robert> Not in a while, but I would like to though, irssi is a bit fucked up.
11:31:24 <kc5tja> Unless you know an actual IP address to connect to, you'll get host not found errors.
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11:42:19 <kc5tja> re a7r
11:42:51 <a7r> sup kc5tja ?
11:43:48 <kc5tja> Nothing much.  Purchased my company's website today.
11:43:58 <kc5tja> Hopefully, it'll be up in about 3 to 4 business days.
11:47:42 <a7r> werd.
11:48:14 <kc5tja> I'll finally have a *REAL* e-mail address too.
11:48:27 <kc5tja> sam.falvo@falvotech.com (note: not up yet)
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12:26:38 <kc5tja> re
12:27:11 <tathi> hi
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16:16:09 <Robert> Wow... now I understand how important propagation circumstances are. Daytime, there is virtually NOTHING on the AM broadcast band in Sweden, but now in the night, I can hear stations from all over Europe.
16:17:25 <kc5tja> Heheheh :D
16:17:27 <kc5tja> Yup.
16:17:46 <kc5tja> WWV is virtually dead dead dead here.  Can't hear it at all.  But at night-time, it comes through pretty well.
16:20:34 <Robert> WWV?
16:21:09 <kc5tja> Our national time standard station.
16:21:14 <kc5tja> All time, all the time.  :)
16:21:34 <Robert> Oh.
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17:05:47 <kc5tja> wb
17:06:49 <Robert> Thanks, the computer crashed. :(
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17:38:13 <kc5tja> re
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17:51:20 <kc5tja> re
17:52:55 <a7r> sup kc5tja 
17:53:47 <kc5tja> Nothing much.
17:54:02 <kc5tja> Pretty much just wasting the day away on how I'd live if I were to lose everything.
17:54:30 <kc5tja> Which is a very real possibility for me if my business doesn't fly.
18:07:06 <kc5tja> My site should be world visible in about three days though.
18:07:21 <kc5tja> The hosting company is still setting up the account.
18:07:26 <kc5tja> (and transferring the domain)
18:10:20 <a7r> nod.
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19:38:42 <Herkamire> ahh, freenode.net is finally up.
19:38:51 <Herkamire> (two hours ago)
19:54:08 <kc5tja> Be back in a bit.  Going to book store -- I hope they're open.  I'm looking for a few books...
19:54:17 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-away
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20:18:21 <Herkamire> yesssss. I've broken my source into blocks, and I've gotten everything working with them.
20:19:04 <Herkamire> now that I have blocks I can write a block editor :)
21:03:13 --- nick: kc-away -> kc5tja
21:07:05 <kc5tja> The first thing I did under gforth in preparation of porting FS/Forth to Linux was write VIBE, my personal block editor.
21:10:26 <kc5tja> WOW!  My mutual funds are almost to the point where I opened them again.  :)
21:14:14 <kc5tja> Too bad, because hifn's stocks are still in the toilet, despite them doing fairly well in the marketplace otherwise.
21:14:22 <kc5tja> Good thing I don't own any Hifn stock.  :D
21:18:51 <Herkamire> what's that? the economy is doing something pleasant? ;)
21:19:06 <kc5tja> for a change.
21:19:35 <kc5tja> Maybe, if this is any indicator, maybe in about 6 months or so, people will start hiring agian.  :/
21:19:36 <Herkamire> well, a hearty pat on the back to everyone involved in the economy
21:20:47 <kc5tja> Heheh
21:55:39 * Herkamire pats himself on the back for spending some time on documentation
21:57:32 <kc5tja> :)
21:57:37 <kc5tja> Documentation is for wimps.  >:)
22:06:56 <Herkamire> documentation is for others.... OK, it's good for me too...
22:07:19 <Herkamire> I want other people to use this
22:09:02 * kc5tja was just making a joke
22:09:47 <kc5tja> I like my editor setup -- the \ key toggles between block N and N+1, making for convenient program and shadow toggling.  [ and ] move two blocks at a time, so it's convenient to navigate viewing only shadow or only code.
22:11:05 <kc5tja> Pretty much very similar to ColorForth's block editor.
22:20:15 <Herkamire> don't you use [ and ] to switch between compile and execute?
22:20:26 <kc5tja> I'm talking editor commands.
22:20:28 <Herkamire> I like the \ thing :) just like lynx :)
22:20:44 <Herkamire> oh right. you said it was like vi :)
22:20:46 <Herkamire> very cool.
22:20:49 <kc5tja> VIBE -- VI-like Block Editor -- has both insert-mode and command-mode.  [ ] and \ have meaning in command-mode.
22:20:54 <kc5tja> :)
22:21:04 <Herkamire> right.
22:21:23 <Herkamire> mine will have insert and command modes too, but [ and ] will be commands that change the color :)
22:21:41 <kc5tja> Someday I'll make a Chuck Moore-style pure-ascii "editor."
22:21:56 <kc5tja> Will they cycle through the available colors?
22:22:11 <Herkamire> yeah. I'll need an ascii editor at some point. for starters, just on my strings.
22:22:26 <Herkamire> no. [ sets it to execute ] sets it to compile.
22:22:27 <kc5tja> VIBE's source code is available as GForth source.  Should be relatively easy to port.
22:22:36 <Herkamire> : sets it to define
22:22:42 <kc5tja> Ahh, I see.  :)
22:23:02 <Herkamire> is VIBE line based like vi?
22:23:10 <kc5tja> Line-based?
22:23:21 <kc5tja> vi is a full-screen editor.
22:23:33 <kc5tja> It is short for visual.  :)
22:23:41 <kc5tja> ed and ex are line-oriented editors.
22:23:43 <Herkamire> when you edit is it just editing one line?
22:23:53 <kc5tja> No, it's the whole block.
22:23:58 <Herkamire> oh good.
22:24:21 <Herkamire> are there any commands that deal with lines? (like move the cursor down one line, or delete a line)
22:24:23 <kc5tja> moore's ASCII editor is line editor though.  It's pretty cool the way it is set up -- makes very good sense for minimal Forth environment.
22:24:29 <kc5tja> 1 pp This is a sample line.
22:24:33 <kc5tja> 2 pp This is on the second line.
22:24:34 <kc5tja> etc.
22:25:15 * kc5tja hasn't implemented very many commands -- only what I needed at the moment.  It's a really minimal editor environment ATM.
22:25:26 <kc5tja> I do have the following line-oriented commands though:
22:25:40 <kc5tja> o - opens the next line, and engages insert mode.
22:25:59 <kc5tja> O - (not VI) Opens the next line, but remains in command mode, and doesn't move cursor.  Why doesn't VI proper have this???
22:26:08 <kc5tja> j - Move cursor down
22:26:12 <kc5tja> k - Move cursor up
22:26:26 <kc5tja> That's it so far for line-oriented commands.
22:27:05 * kc5tja would like to implement a generalized keyboard mapping facility at some point to support arbitrary depth commands (for commands like 'd', which can take 'dd' for delete line, or 'dw' for delete word, etc...)
22:27:33 <Herkamire> cool :)
22:28:11 <kc5tja> Actually, VIBE isn't designed to emulate VI closely.
22:28:18 <kc5tja> It's merely "VI-like" in that it supports two major modes of operation.
22:28:22 <Herkamire> that's gread what you said about O. In my .vimrc I have: noremap <Return> o<Esc>
22:28:44 <Herkamire> it does move the cursor though
22:28:51 <kc5tja> Not sure what that means -- you're remapping RETURN to 'o'?
22:29:05 <Herkamire> to o then escape.
22:29:13 <Herkamire> it adds a line, then goes back to command mode
22:29:24 * kc5tja nods
22:29:54 <Herkamire> I just think it's cool that you too think it's very usefull to be able to add a blank line without going into insert mode.
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22:30:23 <Serg_Penguin> hi
22:30:26 <Herkamire> I kept finding myself hitting return when I wanted another line, so I mapped it that way :)
22:30:30 <kc5tja> re Serg_Penguin
22:30:34 <Herkamire> hi Serg_Penguin :)
22:30:35 * kc5tja nods
22:31:19 <Serg_Penguin> i wrote a 'picture pump' at saturday, w/ two counters ;)
22:31:38 <Serg_Penguin> in JavaScript, so can be used in any inet-cafe, no exe's
22:31:41 <Herkamire> I would definately reccomend implementing a remapping like vim's (where you can remap any sequence of keys to any other) if you want your editor to be widely used/liked
22:32:05 <Herkamire> Serg_Penguin: what's a picture pump?
22:32:40 <Serg_Penguin> you give it split URL and numbers to vary, it gives you all the pics on site
22:32:52 <Serg_Penguin> www.pics.ru/001.gif...
22:33:01 <Serg_Penguin> www.pics.ru/999.gif
22:33:24 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Commands are implemented as colon definitions.
22:33:25 <kc5tja> For example:
22:33:33 <kc5tja> : $$i04 delete ;
22:33:38 <kc5tja> $$ is just the standard prefix
22:33:44 <kc5tja> i means insert mode (use 'c' for command-mode)
22:33:49 <Serg_Penguin> hmm..
22:33:51 <kc5tja> 04 is the ASCII code for the key (in this case, CTRL-D)
22:34:05 <kc5tja> : $$i08 backspace ;
22:34:09 <kc5tja> : $$i7F backspace ;
22:34:14 <Serg_Penguin> i do it this way: big (512) array of pointers to words,
22:34:23 <Serg_Penguin> index is keycode
22:35:09 <Serg_Penguin> : bind ( code -- ) ' swap 2* binds + ! ;
22:35:16 <Serg_Penguin> 27 bind BYE?
22:35:27 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: Works just as well.  I prefer colon definitions though.  No binding necessary.
22:35:43 <kc5tja> It also permits for context-sensitive key-bindings via standard Forth overlays.
22:35:43 <Serg_Penguin> so, how they are invoked on keyhit ?
22:36:02 <kc5tja> Suppose you hit CTRL-D (ASCII code $04) while in insert mode.
22:36:03 <Herkamire> kc5tja: interesting :)
22:36:20 <kc5tja> The keyboard handler stuffs a small string with the textual representation of the key -- in this case $$i04.
22:36:35 <kc5tja> It then scans the dictionary for a colon definition.  If it's found, then it is EXECUTEd.
22:36:50 <kc5tja> Otherwise, the default insert-mode or command-mode handler is invoked.
22:36:54 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I like the concept of using the dictionary for keybindings. I'm going to sleep on it.
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22:37:19 <kc5tja> Herkamire: The disadvantage to the technique is relatively slow speed.  But for my typing speed, it's not an issue at all.
22:37:36 <Serg_Penguin> heh, good, but what if user wants to reassign keys ?
22:38:13 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: Just define a new colon definition.
22:38:26 <kc5tja> : $$i04 ." Hello world!" CR DROP ;
22:38:31 <kc5tja> (the DROP drops the key code on the stack)
22:38:44 <kc5tja> Automatic.
22:38:50 <kc5tja> This can even be done from within the editor.
22:39:04 <kc5tja> Want to revert back?  Just FORGET $$i04 and it'll return to its normal binding.
22:40:23 <kc5tja> HEY, maybe that will be my method for supporting multi-key bindings for multi-key commands!  
22:40:33 * kc5tja notes this in his notebook.
22:40:43 <Serg_Penguin> how ?? don't get
22:41:06 <kc5tja> : $$c64 delete-mode ;
22:41:30 <kc5tja> : delete-mode ... LOAD ;  ( Loads the block with delete-mode support )
22:41:59 <kc5tja> ( in Delete-mode block )
22:42:08 <kc5tja> : foo ;
22:42:48 <kc5tja> : $$c64 delete-line empty ;
22:43:15 <kc5tja> : $$c77 delete-word empty ;
22:43:18 <kc5tja> : ....etc.... ;
22:43:32 <kc5tja> : empty ... LOAD ;  ( loads block to FORGET foo )
22:43:59 <Serg_Penguin> heh, your way is more memory saving, but mine is faster ;)
22:44:23 <kc5tja> I type 92 characters per second.  The computer finishes each keystroke before my figure releases the key.  Not an issue at all.
22:45:06 * kc5tja will be employing overlays a lot in FS/Forth, both for Linux and natively.
22:45:20 * kc5tja has probably thoroughly confused Herkamire though... :)
22:45:57 <kc5tja> Oh, he's not even here.  I didn't see that he left.  Oops.  :)
22:51:29 <kc5tja> Hmm...there is a pretty nasty bug in the existing VIBE code though.  Commands aren't consuming the keycodes.
22:52:08 <Serg_Penguin> whadda you think of an ASCII ART editor ?
22:52:23 <Serg_Penguin> i half-wrote one in gp-forth, but dropped...
22:52:32 <Serg_Penguin> in one-liners ;)
22:53:40 <kc5tja> Fixed.
22:53:51 <Serg_Penguin> ;)
22:54:03 <kc5tja> I haven't had a need for ASCII art in years and years and years.
22:54:04 <Serg_Penguin> forth is really rapid-development language ;)
22:54:13 <kc5tja> Especially when you know what's going on.
22:54:22 <kc5tja> I forgot to DROP in my $$xxx words.
22:56:55 * Serg_Penguin needs ASCII ART very often
22:57:12 <kc5tja> What do you use it for?
22:57:24 <Serg_Penguin> why vendor's don't inser a primitive CAD in e-mail client ?
22:57:30 <kc5tja> BTW, heard some Russian folks speaking on the ham radio today.  :)
22:57:53 <kc5tja> Ahh, I see -- for including some simple illustrations in e-mail.
22:57:55 <Serg_Penguin> i use it to explain something graphically by email
22:58:06 <Serg_Penguin> ho t find a way to somethere ?
22:58:15 <Serg_Penguin> how does something work
22:58:24 <Serg_Penguin> etc..
22:58:40 * kc5tja nods
22:59:26 <Serg_Penguin> why run up Photoshop or Corel or Flash for this ???
23:00:51 <kc5tja> Well, for some really simple stuff, sure.
23:01:13 <kc5tja> I'd like the ability to embed simple line-art in e-mails though -- real graphics, but compact textual representation.
23:01:42 <Serg_Penguin> in windoze, primitive vector editor exporting to GIF may be embedded to mail client
23:01:53 <Serg_Penguin> but what for pure-text Unices ?
23:03:24 * kc5tja nods
23:04:22 <kc5tja> Since I deal a lot with circuit diagrams, though, I find that ASCII art is not sufficient for my needs. 
23:04:28 <kc5tja> But it is nice for rendering tables and such.
23:08:49 <Serg_Penguin> i primarily deal w/ primitive roadmaps, flows of work or algorithm or mechanical schemes..
23:09:02 <Serg_Penguin> like crossbow lock or tape transport 
23:09:48 * kc5tja nods
23:14:13 <Serg_Penguin> do you know about Polyakov, one of the best free radio engeneers ?
23:14:46 <Serg_Penguin> he developed excellent DC RX'es, as well as some bright AM ones
23:15:03 <kc5tja> No, never heard of him.
23:16:29 <kc5tja> Direct conversion receivers are cool.  They have the best sound.
23:43:47 <Serg_Penguin> his books mustread 4 begiiner
23:44:25 <kc5tja> Apparently not available in English.  I did a web search for his name, and found nothing.
23:45:13 <kc5tja> But that's OK -- there are texts in English which are also must-read.  Horowitz and Hill's Art of Electronics is invaluable for basic electronics design concepts.  Then many publications from the ARRL (American Radio Relay League) do a wonderful explanation of radio concepts and circuits.
23:45:38 <Serg_Penguin> i'll do 4 you ;) really, i never heard of translations
23:45:43 <Serg_Penguin> exact links ?
23:45:55 <kc5tja> http://www.arrl.org is the home site of the ARRL.
23:46:16 <kc5tja> Horowitz and Hill are the authors of a book -- no URL, except maybe what's on Amazon.
23:54:01 <Serg_Penguin> ;( here books are widely pirated ;)
23:54:31 <Serg_Penguin> we w/ friend released one on basic/historic crypto ;)
23:54:59 <kc5tja> I'm sure books are pirated here too, but I don't know of any URLs.
23:55:56 <Serg_Penguin> folks go as far as taking books apart and scanning on industry-scale form-reading scanners after worktime ;)
23:56:31 * kc5tja nods
23:56:49 * kc5tja prefers real paper books to online material anyway.
23:56:52 <Serg_Penguin> imagine scanning w/ speed of newspaper printing mashine
23:56:58 <kc5tja> :)
23:57:06 <kc5tja> Imagine page flipping to keep up.  :/
23:57:34 <Serg_Penguin> no page flipping ! book is taken apart and loaded as pack of paper into printer !
23:57:47 <kc5tja> Ahh, I see.
23:57:52 <Serg_Penguin> only diff s/printer/scanner/
23:58:13 <Serg_Penguin> i seen such books, assembled back ;)
23:58:51 <kc5tja> Just epoxy the pages back to the binding with transparent epoxy -- nobody will ever know.  :)
23:59:11 <Serg_Penguin> if hardcover, they take only minor damage , but paperbacks look quite pity
23:59:27 <Serg_Penguin> it's hard to align pages as perfect as at factory
23:59:47 <Serg_Penguin> so epoxied book's sides look 'hairy'
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.07.13