00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.07.02 00:00:13 --- join: anli (abc123@c-d7b470d5.018-16-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 00:56:54 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:13:47 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9E59F20.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:29:51 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 02:29:51 --- mode: leguin.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 02:30:52 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH ("73 from Tokyo") 03:30:31 --- join: crc (~crc@ACC92BE5.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 03:42:28 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 03:50:43 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@usen-221x115x224x2.ap-US01.usen.ad.jp) joined #forth 03:52:27 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 03:52:31 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 04:04:47 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-185-218.phnet.fi) joined #forth 04:38:29 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 04:39:28 hi 04:43:52 hi 04:43:52 Good evening. 04:45:07 bon soir .jp ;-) 04:46:46 Serg_Penguin: how is it going? 04:51:40 it rolls downstairs like a barrel of nitroglycerine ;) 04:52:03 gotta install win98 over 2000, saving it's boot sectors 04:54:44 hey serg! :) 04:55:01 .ad.jp?? 04:55:05 what's the .ad? 05:01:02 Jim7J1AJH? :) 05:02:03 administrative domain 05:02:31 It was originally used for servers for organizations that administered other infrastructure. 05:02:39 It has lost its original meaning. :-) 05:03:02 Except perhaps for whois.nic.ad.jp 05:05:32 what's usen then? :) 05:06:27 The name of one of the largest fiber-to-the-home ISPs. 05:06:30 :) 05:06:39 how fast connection you have then? and how much does it cost? :) 05:07:25 100Mbps. About the equivalent of US$40/month for ISP and basic phone service. 05:10:06 Japan has gone from some of the highest telecomm charges in the world, to among the lowest in the past 5 years. 05:14:28 40$ mo for 100Mbps with phone is something you can't get in europe :) 05:15:11 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:15:51 Yahoo!BB really changed the landscape here by offering 8Mbps (and then 12Mbps, and now 26Mbps) ADSL for about US$25/month. 05:16:20 All of the other providers have had to price similarly or lose out. 05:17:51 in finland common price for 256Kbps is about 40 eur :P 05:18:32 how much is the population of japan? 05:18:50 About 125 million. 05:19:07 huh, here ADSL unlimited speed is 19$/month, but traffic - $0.19 per megabyte ;(( 05:19:22 The ISPs have some advantages. Very high population density in the cities. 05:19:30 yes 05:19:39 i was thinking that was what made it possible 05:19:47 So there are actually two fiber companies with fiber running down the poles in front of my apartment. 05:19:51 100 million in such small area compared to europe or usa or other parts 05:20:11 And a cable internet provider. And lots of xDSL providers. 05:20:31 Serg_Penguin: Fortunately data transfer is not metered here. 05:20:45 the local telephone comppanies try to keep competition away and prices hight with high network (adsl) rent costs :P 05:20:59 Ironically, telephone service is metered... which gave a lot of incentive to switch to ADSL/cable. 05:21:50 mur: That is what happened here until Yahoo!BB (BroadBand) sort of shocked the market by offering ADSL at about $25/month. 05:22:22 Everyone said they would go broke. They said, we'll break even at 2 million subscribers. And they now have almost 3 million. 05:22:22 well some student apartments in centre of helsinki have 100 Mbps including to rent 05:22:58 mur: Yes, that is becoming common in new apartments here. 05:22:58 Rooms have 100BaseT jacks in the wall. 05:23:28 but you need to remember that capital area has only 1 million people here, and helsinki alone 500000 people. that is not great market share :P 05:23:35 5 million in finland total 05:24:04 sweden has 8 mil. and the govt promised to bring broadband to all apartments 05:24:14 i dont knwo how they are doing to practically 05:25:07 the best for competition was of course that the network rents were fixed and same for all. but as long as telephone service providers can give prices too high 05:25:11 it's not coming anything 05:25:48 The government here is trying to spur IT development in Okinawa, which traditionally lags behind mainland Japan. There are lots of sections with fiber to the homes, even in relative countryside. 05:26:23 are the tube hotels common (small tube for sleeping)? 05:26:23 :) 05:26:54 Not common, but they still exist in the big cities. 05:27:09 are they much cheaper than regular? 05:27:48 Most of the commuter trains stop around midnight, so if you are stuck in the city after that it is either a veyr expensive taxi ride or find a place to stay in town. 05:28:18 Yes. I've seen them advertised for about US$30/night. 05:28:26 and regular rooms? 05:28:34 hotels / hostels? 05:28:39 "business hotel" will be 3 times that. Normal hotel a lot more. 05:29:41 in Helsinki hotel price is about 200 eur a night, hostels can provide 40 eur a night or 15 in dormitory 05:30:34 hmm perhaps opening such in st. petersburg might be profitable 05:30:35 hmm 05:31:01 what about mobile phones? 05:31:53 what bandwidth you use? 05:31:55 they 05:33:01 and what network technology? 05:33:01 mur: There are several. I use the PHS (micro-sized cell) which provides 32Kbps/channel. Providers offer 1 or 4 channel connections. 05:33:42 The major provider's infrastructure is only 9600 baud. The two challengers have 144Kbps. 05:33:56 but what technology? 05:34:05 Japan's cellular network is unique to Japan. 05:34:12 yes 05:34:12 It is based on PDC. 05:34:25 so the network is standardised to one? 05:34:40 There are 3 providers, each with their own network. 05:36:13 Plus 3 PHS (micro-cell) networks. 05:39:50 can you give me some network provider urls and cellular urls? 05:39:55 * mur wants to compare :) 05:43:19 DoCoMo iirc? 05:46:34 yes NTT DoCoMo 05:53:16 what ? japan cellular is non-GSM ?? 06:28:43 Serg_Penguin: Correct. None of the carriers use GSM. 06:29:36 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 06:29:43 GSM is crap 06:29:45 The three cellular carriers are NTT DoCoMo, J-Phone (a subsidiary of Vodaphone), and Au (run by the merger of KDD and DDI, called KDDI). 06:30:08 are there many brands of phones? 06:30:39 Maybe 5 or 6 brands for each carrier. 06:31:26 Panasonic, Toshiba, NEC, Sony/Ericsson, Kyocera 06:32:07 (and some smaller Japan-only labels like Densho and JRC Japan Radio Company). 06:32:18 Fujitsu 06:32:25 (knew I was forgetting somebody) 06:32:32 :) 06:32:40 Most recent phones support Java. 06:32:45 sony/ericsson = only sony part before merger? 06:32:48 Only a couple are in the Brew camp. 06:33:08 Yes, there were a couple of 'Sony' phones in the old days. 06:33:27 There were also a couple of Nokia phones in the Japan market, but they seem to have given up. 06:33:35 they are crap 06:33:41 black and white screen 06:33:46 with not good functions 06:33:49 and extensibility 06:43:17 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 07:01:56 --- quit: crc ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.") 07:10:12 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH ("73 from Tokyo") 07:47:25 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:33:36 --- join: CrowKilr (CrowKilr@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3653895.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 08:34:59 --- quit: CrowKilr (Client Quit) 08:35:57 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s55.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth 08:37:55 --- join: CrowKilr (~cacaboudi@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3653895.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 08:38:26 Netscape 7.1 got a irc chat module, great ;p 08:38:39 even support smilies 08:40:18 http://forum.forth.bespin.org/viewtopic.php?t=7 08:41:42 any comments on this would be appreciated, thanks! 08:41:42 --- quit: CrowKilr (Client Quit) 08:55:18 --- quit: mur ("MURR! save the http://rainforest.care2.com/ (click url there)") 08:57:37 --- join: I440r (~x@dialup-67.29.221.203.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 09:32:03 --- quit: I440r (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:32:03 --- quit: PoppaVic (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:32:08 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s55.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth 09:45:41 --- quit: PoppaVic ("(I don't need a reason)") 09:52:47 --- join: I440r (~x@dialup-67.29.221.203.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 09:53:55 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s25.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth 09:55:45 --- join: wtail ([aL1Q7uknp@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 09:56:32 --- part: wtail left #forth 10:27:36 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 10:27:48 hola 10:28:59 fubar 10:46:11 --- quit: I440r () 10:48:08 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9EE1050.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:49:39 --- quit: PoppaVic ("calls it a day - early") 12:44:07 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 12:45:34 --- join: murr (murr@baana-62-165-185-218.phnet.fi) joined #forth 12:45:56 --- nick: murr -> mur 14:50:55 --- quit: anli (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:55:09 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:01:55 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 15:10:08 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:34:17 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 15:34:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 15:34:41 hey kc5tja 15:34:47 Greetings. 15:34:55 Just got back from a rather nice bike ride. 15:35:10 Did almost six miles in gear 3:8 15:35:14 hah 15:35:16 (e.g., the highest gear) 15:35:18 hardcore 15:35:32 You wouldn't know it if you looked at me though. I'm overweight. :) 15:35:50 I think as americans, we are by default. ;) 15:35:56 * kc5tja is a bit bummed out about it though. I bike reasonably regularly, I do aikido three times a week, and yet, I can't lose weight at all. 15:36:17 * kc5tja is thinking about throwing some jogging into the mix too. 15:36:57 yeah, I don't move around nearly enough. 15:37:19 I've been lifting, and walking lately though, to get a bit of calories burned. 15:37:50 Well, I find it amusing that over this weekend, I gained something like 7 pounds, despite 4 days of hardcore (and highly aerobic) aikido. 15:37:57 damn 15:38:01 how tall are you though? 15:38:09 but how much of that is water? 15:38:09 And I really didn't have anything different to eat either. 15:38:24 XeF4: Explain. 15:38:44 a7r: I'm only 5'11" 15:39:17 My ideal weight is 175 to 180lbs. Currently, I'm 204 by my scale, and it's known to read at least 5 lbs under from what a doctor's scale would read. 15:39:35 yeah, I'm 5'11" 15:39:41 and weigh about 180 15:39:47 kc5: hm, I don't suppose water would be retained in that amount for so long.. but I don't see how one could accumulate 7 days of fat in 48hrs 15:39:51 er 15:39:52 7 pounds 15:40:24 XeF4: *nod* Hence my confusion at the results too. :) 15:40:56 have you not had a shit for the whole weekend? =) 15:41:43 XeF4: For most of it, believe it or not, no. But on Saturday, I must have gotten food poisoning, because it all came out, and then some. :D (Plus a little nausea and cold-sweats) 15:41:50 No vomiting though, thankfully. 15:42:20 Still, though, that wouldn't be enough to explain it. 15:42:45 kc5tja: when you get a second, I have something I want to run by you. 15:43:03 a7r: I'm just relaxing right now. Cooling off, stretching, . . . 15:43:37 haha, I don't want people pestering me w/ questions when I'm doing that. ;> 15:43:48 * kc5tja doesn't much care. 15:44:00 okay 15:44:52 so I've got this assembler I wrote for AVR microcontrollers, here: http://www.aereon.net/a7r/outgoing/avr.fth 15:44:54 it's brain dead simple. 15:45:14 I'm only encoding the instructions I've needed so far, but I've run into a problem w/ the simplicity 15:45:52 What kind of problem? 15:45:58 using ::, I can define tags (i.e. textual references to memory locations, for branching).. 15:46:11 but I didn't make any prevision for forward declarations. 15:46:30 er pro 15:48:04 I'm thinking I could maybe come up with someway of doing fix-ups after it's gone over assembling the instructions,.. 15:48:36 cuz right now I can do easily: 15:48:41 :: SOMETAG: 15:48:45 SOMETAG: /rjmp 15:48:50 but I can't do: 15:48:56 SOMETAG: /rjmp 15:48:59 /nop 15:49:05 :: SOMETAG: 15:49:08 15:49:14 * kc5tja nods 15:49:20 because of the obvious reasons. 15:50:26 I don't think there is a super-easy solution to this. 15:50:56 Basically, your assembler will need to record references to undefined labels, and when :: is used to define a label, it must check for forward-references to resolve. 15:51:05 yeah 15:51:45 I was thinking that way could you could do the fix-up at word definition time, but I'm wondering how I should do the Forth magic.. 15:51:52 I was thinking maybe I could start refering to things this way: 15:52:17 :: SOMETAG: 15:52:26 rel SOMETAG: /rjmp 15:52:29 /nop 15:52:41 rel ANOTHERTAG: /rjmp 15:52:48 :: ANOTHERTAG: 15:52:56 /nop 15:53:00 15:53:05 but I'm wondering about rel's implementation 15:53:27 cuz I effectively need to be able to have it go: is the word in the dictionary? if it isn't, create it, and start tracking forward declarations 15:53:30 What does rel stand for? I would probably choose something like "(fwd) ANOTHERTAG: /rjmp" instead. 15:53:40 oh,. it was just for relative 15:53:48 Ahh 15:53:49 but I guess I could just be explicit about my forward jumps 15:55:10 so (fwd) would need to do some type of lookup to see if ANOTHERTAG: is in the dictionary, if it isn't, create it.. if it is, append another forward location for fix-up 15:55:28 * kc5tja nods 15:55:32 Basically correct. 15:55:33 then :: would need to be changed to look up the tag's name first, see if there are any forwards already associated with it, and update as necessary. 15:57:55 What's cool is your assembler is about as simple as a PowerPC or 6502/65816 assembler would be. :) 15:58:17 It seems that *only* 80x86 CPUs have the most complicated and god-awful assemblers ever to see the light of day. :/ 15:58:34 Oh well, I need to get to the store. I need to pick up some food. 15:58:46 * kc5tja is getting hungry -- another thing I'm trying to control. >:/ 15:58:48 werd, thanks for your input. 15:59:05 I'll be back shortly, but then I'll have to step out for aikido later tonight too. :D 15:59:27 * kc5tja must remember to check his tire pressure on the '7 though -- steering feels a little soft . . . 15:59:30 bbiab. 15:59:32 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-store 16:29:57 --- quit: XeF4 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:30:15 --- quit: mur ("MURR! save the http://rainforest.care2.com/ (click url there)") 16:41:38 --- quit: ChanServ (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 16:48:08 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 16:48:08 --- mode: leguin.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 16:48:08 --- mode: ChanServ set -o kc-store 17:12:07 --- nick: kc-store -> kc-aikido 17:18:45 --- join: godden (~godden@66.192.187.100) joined #forth 17:30:18 --- part: godden left #forth 17:37:31 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XV-181.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth 17:37:40 http://www.u.arizona.edu/~ctb/wordhord.html 19:09:12 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 19:27:13 --- join: I440r (~x@dialup-67.29.221.132.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 19:58:17 --- join: godden (~godden@12-235-180-197.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 20:07:33 --- part: godden left #forth 20:14:46 --- join: skylan (sjh@vickesh01-4508.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 20:43:24 --- join: CrowKilr (~cacaboudi@Ottawa-HSE-ppp3652758.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 20:44:26 http://forum.forth.bespin.org/viewtopic.php?t=7 !!!! 20:45:41 don't be shy! make this community alive when someone try to make things happen!! at least shut him up ACTIVELY ;p 20:45:50 anyway im out, see ya everyone 20:45:51 --- quit: CrowKilr (Client Quit) 20:54:45 --- quit: I440r () 21:25:59 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:45:32 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 21:45:48 oi 21:49:34 --- nick: kc-aikido -> kc5tja 21:49:41 Howdy, temporarily. 21:49:48 * kc5tja is going to see T3 tonight. 21:50:03 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 21:53:15 T3 is out? 21:55:51 Yes 21:55:53 OK, gotta 21:55:57 OK, gotta go.. 21:56:00 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-movie 22:16:19 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 22:16:27 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.07.02