00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.06.19 00:58:43 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:22:56 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-189-104.phnet.fi) joined #forth 01:50:42 --- join: abc123 (abc123@c-e6b470d5.018-16-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 01:50:48 --- nick: abc123 -> anli 01:50:52 hello! 01:53:36 I want to find a description on every predefined name in forth, ordered alphabetically, is there such? 02:47:06 --- quit: jesus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:48:29 --- part: Jim7J1AJH left #forth 02:56:42 --- join: jesus (~jesus@p50827584.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 03:12:18 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 03:16:57 --- quit: jesus ("Client Exiting") 03:17:09 --- join: MalBi (~MalBi@p50827584.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 03:35:10 --- quit: anli (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:12:30 --- join: abc123 (abc123@c-e6b470d5.018-16-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 05:21:02 --- quit: MalBi (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 05:25:52 --- join: MalBi (~MalBi@p50826FEA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 05:29:46 --- nick: mur -> mur_bbl 05:55:36 --- nick: mur_bbl -> mur 06:04:18 --- quit: mur ("MURR!") 06:10:10 --- join: tcn (~tcn@tc2-login36.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 06:41:31 --- quit: tcn ("TinyIRC 1.1") 06:48:49 --- quit: Robert ("brb") 07:04:46 --- join: d-work (~tommy@as1-6-7.an.g.bonet.se) joined #forth 07:04:53 hi 07:28:55 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 07:58:52 --- join: crc (~crc@ACA6ADE3.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 08:03:19 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9EE1FE4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:04:11 bonjour 08:11:42 Hi deluxe 08:12:58 hi reluxe 08:13:06 s/re/de/ 08:13:44 God morgon 08:14:14 hej Robert 08:16:52 Nordisk Forthare.. :) 08:17:31 jo, men det var ett bra tag sedan jag var en forthjunkie :) 08:18:02 du d?? 08:18:24 Nja, leker en del med Forth nu. 08:18:35 Gulligt språk om man skall hålla på med t.ex. microcontrolelrs. 08:18:37 controllers* 08:18:48 i vilket sammanhang? jobbet? 08:19:05 Nja, skall börja trean till hösten... Hobby :) 08:19:40 gymnasiet eller h?gskolan? 08:20:25 Gymnasiet. 08:20:40 Och dina svenska tecken är lite trasiga. :) 08:20:59 klockrena ISO-Latin-1 k?r jag med 08:21:08 dina ser bra ut 08:21:19 Okej, jag ser bara frågetecken. 08:24:22 vilken ircklient anv?nder du? 08:24:55 irssi. 08:24:57 Du? 08:27:56 xchat 08:52:41 ohoj 08:52:53 People actually talk here? ;) 08:57:09 yes, we talk 08:57:16 bork bork though :) 08:57:39 Is there a pdf on Forth written in swedish? 09:03:59 i have an old book on forth written in swedish 09:04:11 it's very far from being "Starting FORTH" though 09:12:37 --- quit: d-work ("heading home") 09:30:47 Hmm.. 09:31:00 Yet another Swede! 09:31:34 I'd recommend "Moving Forth"... really helps you understand how a Forth works. 09:31:51 And then it's just a matter of practice until you've learnt how to use the different words. 09:47:53 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:48:11 Hey Herkamire 09:50:59 hey Rob :) 09:52:45 Robert: did you hear I got my PPC forth bootstrapping? 09:52:57 Yeah, the scream was heard all the way to Sweden :) 09:53:07 :) :) 09:53:41 --- join: tcn (~tcn@tc2-login41.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 09:53:49 Hi tcn 09:53:53 howdy 09:54:07 Is "starting forth" or any equivalent free and downloadable? 09:54:39 Try a library. 09:54:47 There are many beginner's tutorials out there, I found the pforth one OK. 09:54:54 Combined with #forth, of course :) 09:55:27 Every forth tutorial I ever saw sucks compared to Starting Forth 09:56:11 I used the pforth tutorial for reference. 09:56:19 All the confusing loop constructs. ;) 09:56:42 Then I bugged the people in here! (great idea, eh?) 09:59:25 I haven't looked at too many, but the only good introduction to forth I've seen was Starting Forth. 09:59:38 There's an online version (not sure if it's complete) at http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/ 10:07:39 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:15:10 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 10:15:29 --- join: thin (~thin@stu04158.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 10:15:30 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 10:15:37 hi all 10:15:48 new people? hi abc123 and malbi 10:16:34 Hi 10:17:46 woah! the SF is online now 10:17:59 with different pictures though 10:33:41 cool eh? 10:34:48 i wonder if the guy got permission or he's doing it illegally :P 10:36:34 where is that? 10:36:37 oh 10:36:46 oh, I must change to my real name, I feel 10:36:49 --- nick: abc123 -> anli 10:36:51 tada 10:37:16 interestnig, i must have an older version of the book 10:38:14 I have some source code that is supposed to be forth, but it also resembles assembly a lot 10:38:36 ianni: not really, there's not many changes between edition 1 and 2 10:38:55 ianni: this online thing is a bit different 10:39:10 there's a Z80 or 8080 assembler in on of 'em 10:43:42 * thin now has a KICK-ASS resume! Boo-YAH! 10:44:48 Is there a difference between 1 + and 1+? 10:45:41 1+ is coded in assembly for better speed 10:45:52 since 1 + is pretty common 10:46:04 crc: do you know introspector? 10:46:18 Never heard of it 10:50:16 prolly a debugger 10:52:42 --- quit: crc ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.") 10:54:13 thin: prolly yes. didn't mean that dos thing though ;-) 10:55:03 it's a quite new prj on SF 10:56:19 crc was asking on his retro page for forth/asm visualization(+) tools 10:57:18 introspector.sf.net? 10:57:50 y 10:58:19 or #introspector nick mdupont 10:58:54 heard of him 10:59:02 the website is not quite as informative 11:00:09 easy to miss the gem in it 11:00:24 typical for SF :( 11:01:37 I hate some of these fucking open-source projects - the kind where they outline the code and documentation and release it as-is hoping someone will finish it 11:01:59 nah, that's a good thing 11:02:15 if they didn't release anything and let their good idea die, that would be sad 11:02:44 there are two kinds of people, those who come up with cool ideas and start them, and those who follow through on the idea :P 11:03:03 take NASM.. they released that years ago.. but now there are new versions coming out constantly with half-assed changes 11:04:03 gotta go, laters 11:04:04 --- quit: thin ("bye") 11:04:09 I'd like to see an ARCHIVE site for STABLE software releases... 11:12:14 I wish more programmers would get enough money to retire, and then spend some serious time developing on cool open source projects. 11:13:12 I could have a forth PPC OS in a month or 3 if I didn't have to work. but it'll probably be a year or two. 11:14:06 programmers make enough that they ought to be able to retire by the time they're 35 11:14:58 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4c05.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 11:17:11 I'm temporarily retired :) 11:17:19 Herkamire: Well, except for the part where they get married and have kids. 11:20:42 i've gotten a lot done in the week i've been retired :) 11:21:01 TreyB: right 11:21:14 if they don't have kids they can retire by 35 11:22:10 I'm 25 11:24:21 I'm 23, and I don't have enough money to retire :) 11:25:08 I'll turn 36 in September, but I got married and had two kids :-) 11:25:12 yeah, i'm reall just taking time off 11:25:31 kids are expensive :) 11:25:46 actually trying to focus on programming so I can make some money doing it 11:26:06 tcn: cool. how you gunna do it? 11:27:11 freelance 11:29:24 business stuff.. maintenance, custom utilities, database stuff, data processing, summaries, reports 11:29:45 maybe similar stuff for science & engineering 11:30:54 cool :) do you have the contacts to get customers in those areas? 11:32:28 yeah, I have some people to start with.. a few scientists, former employers, local business development people.. now I have to start working those leads :) 11:32:46 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 11:32:54 work it baby! ;) 11:34:15 I could help out on some scientific data analysis at the universities, on a volunteer basis, and they may decide to start paying me 11:35:17 there are a lot of small businesses, and departments in larger organizations, that can't justify hiring a full-time programmer but they could use a little help 11:36:20 re.. 11:37:11 howdy 11:37:24 howdy a7r :) 11:38:25 what's going on? 11:38:41 tcn: I definately see were people need you. I don't know how to get those companies to hire me though :) 11:39:10 a7r: we're talking about freelancing 11:39:15 tcn: Ah yes 11:40:17 the biggest problems I've hit is: people wondering how long you're going to be around for, and getting people to understand that they can do what they want to do, w/out buying expensive pieces of software. 11:40:31 first of all, you'll have to accept less-than-ideal tools - like MS :) 11:41:12 a7r: yeah, that's one reason I haven't got started yet - not sure how long I'll be around here! 11:41:34 but if I could get some good money coming in, I could afford to stay in the area 11:46:11 I'm starting my freelance while I'm still have a day job 11:47:54 I did a little bit that way 11:48:12 I'm not willing to deal with MS, so I'm doing webhosting 11:48:40 I can do databases and stuff on there, and it's much more fun because it only has to work on my linux box. 11:49:10 yeah, well, try convincing business people to use Linux/Unix :) 11:50:00 right. 11:50:13 but business people will pay for hosting on linux. 11:50:27 what if their data they want to put on the web is in MS Access or SQL server? 11:50:36 im lucky enough to work in a shop which all the people use a little unix 11:50:52 tcn: it's easy... 11:51:09 what kind of shop, though? 11:51:13 i guess, we are mac, though 11:51:15 at work I do programming on our linux server (e-comerce, and some other databases) 11:51:24 not much 'good office software' on linux is there 11:51:37 nope 11:52:00 if you're gonna use it, you might as well use MS and save yourself the headache 11:52:16 tcn: I've started recommending Macs to customers 11:52:30 with the amount they'd pay for Windows tech support, they could have purchased a Mac. 11:52:50 heh, yeah.. my stepdad likes them 11:52:58 i always hated mac 11:53:15 MS gives me a headache 11:53:17 then i started working here and started actually using one 11:53:18 ianni: they're UNIX boxes now.. what's to hate? ;) 11:53:28 I guess since OS 8 or 9 macs have been better 11:53:28 it's either that, or Windows. 11:53:30 a7r, no, i run OSX only since sep 2001 i think 11:53:34 and I started on os9 here 11:53:37 now i love it 11:53:47 everyone here hates windows.. i felt right at home.. 11:53:52 haha, cool 11:53:57 yea 11:54:11 it's sad how people 'dont want a mac' for no reason 11:54:13 I was one of them 11:54:22 I have all kinds of friends 'but yeah i dont want a mac' 11:54:22 I mainly run into Windows folk, that run Windows because they think everyone else does. 11:54:28 We oughta write some better graphics/publishing software.. lean & mean, ya know? 11:54:32 'why?' '' 11:54:38 ianni: always 11:54:47 ianni: they're too expensive! there's no software! 11:54:56 the only valid reasons, imo, are that more games run on pc's 11:55:02 yup 11:55:12 yeah, the expensive bit is sorta valid since a lot of geeks buy their hardware 11:55:12 heh 11:55:26 but hey, you get what you pay for, it's a set of nice, tested hardware.. 11:55:32 yeah, it's sorta like Honda vs. Ford :) 11:55:51 for self assembling white-box geeks, that's fine.. I'm talking mainly about businesses. 11:55:59 roughly equal but one costs twice as much 11:56:00 they have absolutely no excuse. 11:56:25 definitely 11:56:39 I love to point out that MS Office is better on Mac 11:56:52 it's ironic 11:57:02 so very ironic :) 12:01:20 it would help if businesses weren't so willing to let MS/Adobe/Autodesk/etc "lock them in" 12:01:50 not to mention all the specialized software vendors 12:02:46 yeah 12:03:00 it also doesn't help that management is thrown Windows propaganda all the time. 12:03:32 A software vendor told one of my clients not too long ago: OpenBSD? That's owned by SCO.. you guys should really be running WinXP. 12:03:34 yep 12:04:11 and then the client straight face asks me about OpenBSD being owned by SCO.. and I have to slap my forehead, and explain the whole thing. 12:04:20 it all comes down to ignorance. most of the people who are adamantly pro windows, i suspect have never used much else. 12:05:02 Those fancy Linux distros are worse 12:05:11 true 12:05:35 I always hear people bitching about Gentoo for example :) 12:05:39 haha 12:05:44 Gentoo isn't that bad. ;) 12:05:52 you can just blow off your leg if you aren't careful. 12:06:57 Linux ain't bad if you use it as the hacker's OS it's meant to be.. no GUI configuration, automatic package management & crap 12:07:07 nod. 12:07:13 that's my feeling on why I used the BSDs though 12:07:20 there was none of that shit installed to begin with 12:07:44 Gnome and KDE run under BSD... 12:08:45 yeah, but on stock BSD ships with them as considered 'required' to get the machine working properly. 12:08:48 s/on/no/ 12:09:13 like,. w/ the install bits mirrored locally, I can get an OpenBSD box installed, and properly configured in under 15 minutes.. 12:09:36 (i.e. I can ssh back into it, put it on the network, and setup packet filtering) 12:09:47 heh.. I spent about 3 hours trying to install 'doze 12:09:53 ouch; ( 12:10:03 just 'doze and office.. 12:10:16 part of it was trying to find the friggin CD key 12:11:39 so you could say "You could fire your IT guys if you ran *nix" 12:12:02 "all they do is sit around reinstalling software" 12:12:19 yeah. :P 12:12:50 the funniest thing I saw recently.. was a client had an Exchange configuration going.. and one day, the thing totally flipped out. 12:13:06 I don't manage exchange, so they had to call the original guys that did the install for them.. 12:13:24 it turned out, they had a copy of Norton Anti-Virus for Exchange, and Norton Anti-Virus for Windows 2000 installed 12:13:41 so one day, the machine woke up, and the two Anti-Virii started fighting, and filled up the entire disk on the machine. 12:13:47 hahahhahaha 12:14:03 yeah dude.. I mean, WTF 12:14:17 maybe both NAV's were infected 12:14:49 what's really sad is, they paid 15k for some Compaq RAID machine nonsense, w/ exchange,.. and they use 1% of the functionality. 12:15:27 --- quit: Speuler ("CARRIER LOST") 12:15:36 I setup a Postfix based mail-proxy w/ spam filtering, to isolate the Exchange server from the Internet (the original installation had Exchange talking to the Internet directly) 12:15:58 or you know what's really scary.. when they set up all these proxy filters and crap, then they run Outlook and Explorer with all the scripting & crap enabled :) 12:16:08 yeah. :P 12:16:15 I just don't know what to say to those people. 12:16:20 `Help me, help you!' 12:16:47 or they won't put classified data on a secure web page but they'll email it.. hahahahah 12:17:16 now that was before 2001.. maybe they're more careful now 12:17:34 right :) 12:21:45 I think one of the only places a new software company could really win, is by working on software for embedded hardware 12:21:50 where all you need to do is interoperate 12:22:12 ... which is why Forth coders should stop trying to push Forth to the masses, and instead make great devices written in Forth, for people to buy. :> 12:22:25 yes! :) 12:23:41 yeah, it's tough to compete in the "off-the-shelf" software market.. and it's gotta be DAMN boring :) 12:24:24 ...trying to please everyone who might ever use it 12:25:42 nod. 12:26:07 --- join: a7r_ (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 12:26:13 .. it's tough though 12:26:23 most Forth developers don't have a lot of capital, from what I've seen so far. 12:27:58 it's a pretty limited language 12:29:12 not too well suited for making money :) 12:30:05 haha 12:30:25 if your products rock, no one cares what they're written in. :) 12:35:21 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 12:37:12 --- quit: tcn ("TinyIRC 1.1") 12:46:51 --- join: deluxe_ (~deluxe@pD9EE1FE4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 12:49:50 if more people forthed it would be more suitable 12:54:17 how many people do you really need to write a product though. 13:07:41 Robert: have you ever tried fasm? 13:09:39 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 13:09:39 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 13:10:55 kc5tja: elo 13:11:17 re 13:11:33 fvm. was it you who suggested it some days ago? 13:11:55 As a hypothetical concept, yes. 13:12:30 no incarnation yet? 13:12:35 Just something I'd like to research some day. 13:13:08 No. Not yet. The closest I came was when I wrote a Steamer16 emulator in C for a Forth environment I was going to create for some embedded hardware devices. 13:13:22 But that project got cancelled by management when I completed the emulator. 13:15:58 I think if I were to do another emulator, though, it'd be closer to Chuck's processors. The Steamer16 was a nice processor, and in hardware, it runs quite fast. But Chuck's CPUs have several advantages that favor well-factored code. 13:27:18 --- join: Fractal (pqzsnex@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 13:33:35 deluxe: No 13:40:51 --- nick: a7r_ -> a7r 13:55:25 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81734.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:04:47 --- join: jdrake (jdrake@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:06:18 so what interesting things is forth upto lately? 14:08:16 Oh, I probably just offended to some degree some of the readership of the ColorForth mailing list. 14:09:17 Otherwise, I'm still hacking FS/Forth to support LOADing from blocks. 14:10:43 what is colourforth? 14:11:09 There are two answers: one generic, and one specific. 14:11:34 i was looking for something to try out, and was thinking on making a forth interpreter in scheme. Probably easier to do than a metacircular interpreter in scheme 14:11:41 The generic answer is a Forth environment that utilizes color (or some form of markup in general, such as boldface or italics) to make explicit the purposes of words in Forth source. 14:12:20 The specific answer is a version of Forth that Chuck Moore wrote for himself. 14:12:53 a friend of mine showed me a little bit of forth, and even wrote an rtf intro article up and sent it to me (he had this before he showed me anything) 14:13:29 Can we get his permission to post his article (I'd have to translate it to HTML) on our #forth portal website? 14:14:03 although i wouldn't use forth for gui stuff, It would certainly be interesting to try a forth solution to some console things 14:14:19 Forth is as good for GUIs as any other language I've used. 14:14:27 it would be rather easy to do, i will ask him later on 14:14:55 It's just never really been done before. BigForth is an exception: it actually as a visual environment builder a la Visual Basic, last I recalled. 14:16:10 the concept of forth is pretty simple, even simpler than scheme I believe 14:16:26 Some people even argue that it's too simple for its own good. 14:17:07 Stock Forth is exceptionally low-level (ANS Forth provides a higher level set of primitives). It's about the level of machine language. 14:17:17 However, as words are written, the abstraction level goes up significantly. 14:18:38 brb, checking the barbeque 14:19:04 OK 14:19:08 colorforth is graphical 14:19:20 fuck, digikey is my lord and saviour 14:19:42 Herkamire: It's graphical, but it doesn't exactly have a GUI "per se." :) 14:19:50 saving me from a life of radio shack 14:19:59 a7r: DigiKey and Mouser are my two favorites. 14:20:08 kc5tja: yeah, Mouser is on the elite scale as well 14:20:09 kc5tja: not exactly :) 14:20:33 Herkamire: cuz you could implement colorForth using ANSI color codes, to a serial terminal. 14:20:43 a7r: Hey, drove up to Irvine day before yesterday, and drove back. First time my car has hit 100MPH. :D And the last. 14:20:52 kc5tja: haha, werd! :) 14:21:13 I was working on my 7 yesterday, fucked up my boost setting.. and spiked to .9 bar. :P 14:21:20 OOPS. 14:21:27 Apex seal life: shorted by a few years. :) 14:21:39 yeah, I told my little brother.. and he was like ``dude, I hid 1.2 bar the other day on accident.. no worries.'' 14:21:45 s/hid/hit/ 14:21:58 1.2 bar in your 7? 14:22:00 Or in his own car? 14:22:03 his 14:22:05 Good 14:22:08 haha 14:22:09 Let him deal with it. :) 14:22:09 yeah 14:22:17 he has an 88, w/ a stock motor 14:22:20 90k on it 14:22:27 Unless you got ceramic seals and rotors, 1.2 bar isn't good in a rotary. :) 14:22:39 gforth is what my friend (ricci adams) had me install 14:22:48 yeah, I don't expect to be boosting more than 1 bar with my final configuration. 14:22:53 jdrake: I'd agree that's a great Forth environment to learn in. 14:23:01 there are guys putting down 350 RWHP with 12 PSI into the intake. 14:23:21 a7r: Yup. And that's probably before porting it. :D 14:23:50 I'm putting down about 250 HP at 10 PSI right now.. I need to make some changes. 14:24:08 a7r: The reason I won't do 100MPH again, though, is you can really feel the rear-end of the car want to lift off every bump you hit. The front is solid, but the rear gets skiddish. Definitely needs a rear wing if I'm going to cruise at those speeds. :) 14:24:19 haha 14:24:19 yeah 14:24:35 it's funny when you realize a wing is actually necessary in some cases.. for some cars 14:24:39 (not your average civic) 14:24:44 But it felt good passing Mustang Saleens. :D They didn't try to race though. But it's fun to pretend. :D 14:25:09 I did get passed up (with thumbs up too) by a Corvette doing at least 150MPH. :D 14:25:19 haha 14:25:35 --- quit: Herkamire ("'evening all") 14:25:53 I like cool drivers like that. Most people who own vettes have such bad attitudes. Porsche drivers too. 14:26:10 yeah 14:26:19 they're spending the money cuz they're dick heads. 14:26:23 Yeah 14:26:33 I raced a chick driving a Z06, in my Volvo wagon 14:26:45 jdrake: Don't mind us -- you can chat Forth too if you want. :D 14:26:54 Heheh :) 14:27:00 a7r: Who won? :) 14:27:11 I beat her off the line, surprisingly.. 14:27:21 but she dominated the second she got really rolling. 14:27:34 Wow. Aren't Volvo's turbocharged? 14:27:53 yeah, my wagon was putting down 320 lb/ft, and 300 HP at that point. 14:28:07 Ahh...so it's the vehicle's weight that killed you then. :) 14:28:18 but the Z06 weighs like 2800 pounds, and puts out 400+ HP ;) 14:28:47 My current roommate wants a CR5. 14:29:21 (I emphasize current, because I'll probably be moving to San Diego in a few weeks.) 14:29:27 CR5 or C? 14:29:29 er C5R 14:29:33 Yeah, sorry. 14:29:36 C5R. 14:29:55 werd,. I've got friends down in SD 14:30:04 I'll be down there before too long, we should meet up. 14:30:46 a7r: Not sure if I'll be there at that time, but if you're going to SD, you'll likely pass through Oceanside doing it (both 5 and 15 go through Oceanside and Escondido, respectively). You can stop by. :) 14:30:59 werd 14:31:04 We just need to set up a schedule, so I can be sure to be here. 14:31:58 I don't even need to give you an address, really. I'm the only person in the WHOLE apartment complex (which spans several blocks) with an RX-7. 14:39:48 man.. it's depressing, when the handling cost, is more than the cost of the parts! 14:41:57 That's probably the only way they make their money. :) 14:42:03 seriously. 14:42:23 No wonder why Radio Shack doesn't sell discrete components anymore -- they're so cheap that they can't make any money on them. 14:42:38 so.. carbon composition 390 ohm 1W resistor is 1.19, but a metal film resistor is 0.16 14:43:16 * a7r contemplates the design impact. 14:43:23 Yeah, because nobody buys carbon compositions anymore. :) They're noisy and big. :) 14:43:58 what's the motivation to go with one then? ;) 14:44:09 Which one? 14:44:14 the carbon composition 14:44:25 people seem to still be using them 14:45:06 Not sure why. 14:45:10 I wouldn't though. 14:45:11 brb -- phone 14:46:26 hrm. 14:46:38 digikey doesn't have any 390 ohm 1W resistors available. :P 14:47:02 hmm.. they have 2W ones though. 14:48:58 back 14:51:16 kc5tja, when you pick a resistor of larger power dissipation, do you have to be worried about any differences, besides the physical size of the component? 14:51:36 Nope 14:52:01 Not unless you have an adjacent component that *depends* on that component's temperature during operation. 14:52:15 (e.g., a Wheatstone bridge) 14:53:10 nod.. this is for supporting a zener diode, when it hits the breakdown voltage 14:53:39 Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. 14:57:42 what would happen if a 50W laser was pointed at somebody's arm or similar area? 14:57:57 is it focused? :) 14:58:03 yes 14:58:12 It would probably drill a hole through it, cauterizing as it goes. 14:58:13 isn't that what a laser is? 14:58:35 jdrake: Not *technically* -- a laser is just a coherent source of light -- it needn't necessarily be focused. 14:58:51 It's just that a laser is no better than an LED unless it's focused, so they're often kept focused. :) 14:59:06 there was a picture on last night that had a company using a 50W laser to cut through wood for a guitar 14:59:36 * kc5tja nods 14:59:57 what would stop somebody from making a 'big frickin' laser'? 15:00:12 Heck, 20W argon-ion laser (blue/green laser) caused severe wounds in a lab technician I was working with back when I was around 17 years old. 15:00:42 Hmm...the fact that they require lots of input power and lots of cooling has a lot to do with it. :) 15:01:01 so there won't be any phasers for a while :-) 15:01:27 a real acomplishment would be a 'phaser' that you can see the beam actually travelling to its target... 15:02:05 Well, lasers at least. Phasers, according to the Trek Manuals I have (hey, I know . . . don't go there), a phaser works by modulating matter itself -- the visual aspect of a phaser comes from a laser component, and provides only the thermal power of a phaser. The disruptive power comes from more intense energy sources. :) 15:03:10 did they ever give a reason why a 'bird of prey' can't fire 'while she's cloaked'? 15:03:13 But, here's what I'm wondering -- is it possible to purchase 100 50mW LED lasers and focus them on a single spot to get the equivalent 5W laser output? 15:03:35 Probably not completely, as each laser is likely to be incoherent with respect to each other, but it should prove to be interesting. 15:03:48 Yes -- not enough energy. 15:04:09 how much does a 50W laser cost? 15:04:29 are you trying to become Dr. Evil? 15:04:41 not yet 15:04:50 In the later movies (the Undiscovered Country, IIRC), there was a prototype Klingon D-7A (!!) which was powered by a singularity, thus providing a more plentiful supply of energy. It *could* fire while cloaked. 15:05:32 Also, I believe the Dominion, in Deep Space 9, could fire while cloaked. 15:05:36 Umm...not sure about price. 15:05:40 It isn't going to be cheap though. 15:06:06 wouldn't they control things like those? 15:06:37 Heheh -- I don't think they currently do. 15:06:45 Nobody has yet used one as a weapon successfully. 15:07:21 how long would a standard 9V battery work to power one? 15:07:31 Maybe a couple of milliseconds. :) 15:07:44 as the 9V battery turns into a grenade. ;) 15:07:59 Yeah, good point. Don't stand next to it when you flip the switch. :) 15:08:02 how does it keep those flash light bulbs going? 15:08:14 they are around 10W aren't they? 15:08:35 The industrial cutters are probably powered off of 240V bi-phase or 120V tri-phase AC. 15:08:48 jdrake: you talking about consumption, or emission? 15:08:55 Maybe a single flash tube is, but there's going to be more than one in that case. 15:09:08 Input power is always higher than output power. 15:10:11 hmm 15:10:24 how much power does a D cell battery have compared to 9V? 15:10:29 * kc5tja would really like for this grey, overcast, cold weather to pass by, though -- I need to burn in my personal mark on my weapons. I purchased one of those 8x11" page magnifiers (Fresnel lens) to do it with too, and now, it's bloody cloudy. >:( 15:10:44 and also compared to the UM-3 15:10:52 Don't know about a UM-3. 15:11:02 It's about 1/6th the power of a 9V battery though. 15:11:04 oh, another name for AA 15:11:16 Same; 1/6th. 15:11:23 how does a D battery contain 1/6th? 15:11:27 But the duration at which the AA can maintain power is shorter than for the D cell. 15:11:44 P=IE, and for a given current draw, power is proportional to voltage. 15:11:48 9/1.5 is 6. :) 15:12:17 Since a D cell is 1.5V, instead of 9V, then it can be estimated at 1/6th the equivalent power of a 9V. 15:12:25 hmm, why don't they make batteries that go higher than 9v 15:12:39 They do, but they're bigger, bulkier, heavier, etc. 15:12:57 the difference just battery technology that I wouldn't understand anyways? 15:13:03 The next step above 9V is 12V, and those are usually the gel-cell types. Those are damn heavy batteries. :) 15:13:31 Power density has a lot to do with it. 15:13:46 The 9V is the largest "convenient" power density our current technology can provide in a small enough space. 15:14:02 To get 12V would require a larger battery, which most device manufacturers aren't willing to go to. 15:14:47 Also, safety becomes an issue too. 12V batteries can produce quite a bit of juice. Stick your tongue on a 12V battery, and you're likely going to become a light-emitting human. 15:16:10 interesting stuff 15:16:22 * kc5tja nods :) 15:16:23 --- quit: anli (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:16:32 i have to go out to the back and get a plant pot done however, i will be back later on though 15:16:40 it has been nice speaking with you 15:16:42 OK 15:16:43 * Robert connects 3 9V batteries and sticks his tounge to them. 15:16:55 Robert is about to wake up. :) 15:17:07 btw, what happens if you use a transformer to bump it up to 12V? 15:17:13 Yeah.. was playing with some radio stuff. 15:17:48 Wanted to produce some simple oscillator so that I could send CW signals with the FM transmitter. Didn't work too well though :) 15:17:51 jdrake: A transformer can neither create nor destroy energy, hence its name. Therefore, if it's boosting voltage, current drops in proportion. Or, if it lowers voltage, current goes up in proportion. So total power draw is the same. 15:18:21 nothing can create or destroy energy 15:18:28 only convert it 15:18:53 Right -- but a lot of people think that a transformer can make things "more powerful." It doesn't. Just wanted to be more clear about that. :) 15:20:17 brb -- nature calls. 15:24:34 back 15:26:09 :) 15:39:01 --- quit: deluxe_ ("bb") 16:02:52 --- quit: wossname ("^___-") 16:05:55 --- quit: jdrake ("beißen Sie mich stark") 16:37:43 --- join: deluxe_ (~deluxe@pD9EE1E56.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 16:51:14 --- quit: deluxe_ ("bbl") 16:54:28 --- join: jdrake (jdrake@CPE00045afdd0e8-CM014410113717.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 16:55:33 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:33:34 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 17:42:06 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:55:43 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@n1.dskk.co.jp) joined #forth 18:25:29 --- join: geakazoid (~jb@adsl-63-203-232-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:29:23 I guess I found the right forth channel? Took a look at the web page, it looks new! Here is my link by the way http://www.dolfina.org/tutorials/index.html And... at the last SVFIG the Issue of USB Programming was brought up; they are looking for Presenters 18:32:08 --- quit: geakazoid ("Leaving") 18:32:24 --- join: geakazoid (~jb@adsl-63-203-232-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:43:31 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 18:43:35 Hi :) 18:48:02 Hello 18:51:07 yoh 18:58:06 hello 2 19:08:00 do you guys know anything about software contracting? 19:08:10 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 19:08:29 how much it generally costs, somebody is trying to get me to help them... 19:08:34 re geakazoid 19:08:52 * kc5tja charges $80/hour for software contract work. 19:09:00 Chuck charges $100/hour, which is closer to the industry standard. 19:09:13 how about on full project prices 19:09:42 Nobody can answer that kind of question. 19:09:57 Because nobody can determine how long it'll take to finish a piece of software. 19:10:08 he said: "Budget-wise, you'll have to forgive my ignorance. I have no concept of what this will cost. I don't have 10 thousand to spend, and to be hoenst, I don't have 5k to spend. I respect your time and if this doesn't fit into your business model, I can accept that" 19:10:08 You can *estimate*, but never know for certain. 19:10:30 there is an element of risk here, because I do not actually know this guy either 19:10:36 * kc5tja nods 19:11:03 I often make a first project with a new client that is nothing more than writing a detailed project proposal. 19:11:18 i am not sure what standard practise is, but there is another thing he says: "I'm not opposed to you maintaing copyright on this program (I see alot of commercial potential for creative people like myself with clients around the world) and if it made sense financially and you wanted the copyrights, we could arrange that." 19:11:32 Working through *exactly* what they want/expect is useful (and billable). 19:12:00 that is what my intention was, to find a solution and then write up a pretty solid description of it 19:12:29 * kc5tja doesn't do big-design-up-front. 19:12:46 I practice extreme programming, which not everybody is comfortable with, but which has given me knock-out results. 19:12:46 i also have nothing much else to do 19:12:51 The biggest risk, especially with a new client, is a mismatch between expectations and results. 19:12:51 BDUF has always failed me. 19:13:10 considering I have never contracted before... 19:16:35 what I believe is appropriate is to outline what can actually be done for a solution, but nothing like flow diagrams and such 19:17:09 jjdrake if you have nothing else to do, you might think about getting serious about life 19:18:10 geakazoid: ? 19:18:27 I meant that there is always something to do 19:18:30 my life basically consists of going to work (a retail store) and then doing some hobby programming and chatting 19:18:31 It is really important that they think through all of the ramifications of what they are asking. Sometimes they will have a "great idea" but not realize how "expensive" (in some sense) data collection or some phase of actually implementing the project is. 19:19:30 i do other things occassionally, like take my grandparents out grocery shopping or doing the occassional planting, but I am not a real social animal 19:19:35 jfdrake, I know I've seen your posts before; wasn't sure if you were a teenager 19:19:56 geakazoid, and what do you believe I am? 19:21:26 jdrake, I cannot recall where I saw your posts. But then again I have not been IRC since about the time Chuck M. gave an interview 19:22:34 geakazoid: You have a broken link on your tutorial page. 19:22:38 geakazoid: Forth and Not C 19:22:58 sorry, back to your question; I was making a bad joke earlier; I meant that if you are doing some programming, then there is always a way to earn some money 19:23:59 kc5tja thanks, I need to some maintance on it; I have been doing other pc maintance for a few months... 19:27:28 jdrake, my suggestion is to build a set of templates for projects that you would like to do - all types of practical things that you would do on a pc for a business or whatever that would be needed by a business, as you go, offer your services to people who would like what you can offer, as you go figure out how many hours it takes to do x, y, and z and then you can get a rough estimate of how long you take to do aspects of a projec 19:27:51 months for another engineer to do so, the core thing is to keep honing your skill set 19:28:56 i have pretty much resigned myself from the idea of doing programming for a living 19:29:12 because of the lack of jobs that I perseive 19:29:21 however, contract work is another option 19:29:24 look for a nitch that you can fill 19:30:06 look around for people that need your skills... 19:32:59 now as a contracter do you create your own LLC or anything like that, what kind of contract do you do, etc. 19:33:15 it is good to find other team players, people who you can work with if you need them or they need you they can call you 19:34:49 As a contractor, you're in business for yourself. You have to answer these questions yourself. And yes, these go in your business plan. 19:35:27 when you create a program for somebody, do you keep the copyright and source to the programs so you can sell them later, or do you usually give the customer that? 19:35:43 --- quit: Jim7J1AJH (Remote closed the connection) 19:36:25 my main goal is to provide educational support for individuals and groups. when I do programming, I can do web programming, setting up and tuning networks. I have projects for courseware so most of my programming is copyrighted for inhouse stuff. I do not sell my rights to my work. I only do outside projects for people who are setting up non-profit organizations or small businesses where I can train them on their own equipment. I do 19:37:08 My goal is to empower people who would otherwise be helpless amongst the big corps 19:37:37 admirable :p 19:38:40 my goal is to make money, and then have people do my bidding. 19:38:40 jdrake: those are details you need to work out yourself, again. For my business, when a customer contracts me to do work for them, they own everything. 19:39:11 Your business might have different rules. 19:40:12 oh one thing - when you said you usually charge $80 to $100 /h did you mean USD? 19:40:40 Yes, that's US dollars. 19:40:44 * kc5tja lives in USA. :) 19:40:57 so that is about $130cdn 19:41:29 how about payment - how do you mutually make sure the other isn't going to screw each other? 19:41:32 Well, I charge $80/hour. It's Chuck that charges $100/hour. :) 19:41:48 Well, this is the reason I don't do big-design-up-front. 19:42:02 I have one-week development cycles, called iterations. 19:42:20 Each iteration, I sit down with the customer, and discuss the requirements, called "user stories" in extreme programming. 19:42:45 Once we get those out of the way, I then estimate how long it'd take for me to implement the user stories requested. 19:42:59 The customer then decides which are more important, and those are the ones I actually work on. 19:43:23 Based on my estimate of how long it'd take to work on them, that's how much I charge my customer for that iteration. 19:43:48 This way, at most, I lose no more than one week's worth of income. 19:44:03 Failure to pay constitutes failure to continue working on the code. 19:44:37 what about if it is only online that you have communication 19:44:51 Of course, each week, the customer gets a copy of the software, fully integrated, and as functional as possible for that iteration. 19:44:57 Same thing. 19:45:06 You conduct your business online instead of face-to-face 19:45:10 this guy is in toronto (according to him of course, being the internet), and I am in london, so that is about two hours away 19:45:25 and I have no desire to travel two hours to meet the guy :-) 19:46:08 London? There's a London in Canada? I hadn't known that. 19:46:20 yes, it is southwestern ontario 19:46:46 relatively peaceful place, but all levels of government (all 3) really suck right now 19:47:04 * kc5tja nods 19:47:51 its kind of funny that this guy wanted a mac interface for his project, but stuff storing remotely 19:48:56 so I basically have to come up with a way to have a backend that works on the server and then have the admin interface in a mac program, and the user interface on the web 19:51:46 * kc5tja nods 19:55:08 jfdrake, sounds like he needs to keep his mac and needs to remotely store it because his mac cannot 19:56:07 he wants it because it is more convenient i believe 19:56:32 xmlrpc sounds good for this sort of thing, cocoa front end for admin, php backend, and html front end for clients 20:09:11 well, I have to log out now, good luck on your project 20:09:17 --- quit: geakazoid ("Leaving") 20:46:23 --- join: geakazoid (~jb@adsl-63-203-232-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 20:46:42 hello again, and btw, has anyone used iForth? 20:54:55 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:02:53 --- quit: geakazoid ("Leaving") 21:03:11 --- join: geakazoid (~jb@adsl-63-203-232-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 21:06:07 --- quit: geakazoid (Client Quit) 21:06:29 --- join: geakazoid (~jb@adsl-63-203-232-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 21:20:46 question (repeated due to relogging onto irc): does anyone here use iForth? 21:25:05 Nope. 21:25:07 Don't think so. 21:26:15 hrm... okay 21:26:39 That's Marcel Hendrix's Forth, IIRC. 21:26:46 That's a commercial Forth last time I checked. 21:37:56 AHA! I'm -><- that close to finishing up LOAD support!! :D 21:38:01 Not quite there, but . . . 21:59:42 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 21:59:56 howdy folks 22:06:47 re Herkamire 22:13:51 kc5tja, question: I used to be able to for nick completion, am I recalling how to use the irc commands? 22:16:22 22:19:34 oic: had it backwards, that's what I get for learning forth 22:41:53 morning all 22:42:04 kc5tja, Well,something is wrong w/my Zircon, I did have it right but the is outlining the page. Well, too bad there is not a Forth IRC Client 22:42:05 hello 22:47:44 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 23:02:01 Well, there might be one coming up. After I finish FS/Forth for DOS, which is actually substantially harder to write than I thought, all because of LOAD, I will be writing FS/Forth for Linux. 23:02:08 I have a number of applications I want to use FS/Forth for Linux for. 23:03:18 I can envision trying to write an IRC client. Not sure I really want to though -- XChat works quite well for me. 23:04:36 I can envision banging out an IRC client in gforth in a few hours but I'm not sure the world would be bettered by it.. 23:05:36 XeF4: geakazoid is having some technical issues with Zircon, hence the conversation. 23:05:52 kc5: *nod* 23:06:20 kc5: I just meant that being written in Forth doesn't necessarily make it a better client 23:08:46 No, but it does make it approachable for customization to someone who prefers to program in Forth. :) 23:12:46 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.140) joined #forth 23:12:50 hi 23:12:54 re 23:13:23 may crash out, link is flaky due to wet cable 23:13:38 * kc5tja nods 23:50:41 Off to bed. 23:50:41 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:50:57 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.06.19