00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.06.17 00:50:43 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 00:50:59 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 00:57:39 --- quit: Fractal (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 00:57:53 --- join: Fractal (pohyd@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 00:59:21 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:47:35 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 02:49:51 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Client Quit) 05:54:59 --- quit: TreyB (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:54:59 --- quit: Robert (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:54:59 --- quit: paxl (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:56:51 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 05:56:51 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:56:51 --- join: paxl (paxl@modemcable110.168-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 05:58:13 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 06:02:58 --- quit: TreyB (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:02:58 --- quit: paxl (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:02:58 --- quit: Robert (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:03:54 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 06:03:54 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 06:03:54 --- join: paxl (paxl@modemcable110.168-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 06:57:01 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-190-130.phnet.fi) joined #forth 07:14:46 --- join: snowrichard (~chatzilla@c66.190.103.110.ts46v-01.mrshll.tx.charter.com) joined #forth 07:18:30 Hi snowrichard 07:19:46 ."hello forth" 07:19:52 hi was checking my phone messages 07:19:54 sin tax error 07:21:23 ." baaah" 07:25:46 wife is grumpy this morning. 07:36:12 --- quit: snowrichard ("ChatZilla 0.8.23 [Mozilla rv:1.3/20030603]") 07:45:29 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:27:29 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:16:01 --- join: XeF4 (xef4@lowfidelity.org) joined #forth 09:18:55 --- nick: mur -> mur_bb30m 09:18:56 wb XeF4 :) 09:18:59 --- nick: mur_bb30m -> mur_bb30min 09:19:14 hallohallo 09:24:26 I wish I was payed to program in forth instead of PHP 09:25:02 so start coding in Forth the stuff you're payed to code in PHP and hope noone notices 09:26:51 I need to make mod_forth first (unless there is such a thing) 09:27:24 oh, you're using php on apatchy? 09:27:37 yep 09:28:16 * XeF4 doesn't imagine it would be too hard 09:28:23 at least not harder than mod_anythingelse 09:28:34 :) 09:29:15 hrm, postscript language reference is 912 pages 09:29:22 I started writing it a year ago, but I got frustrated that I couldn't get it to kill my script after a certain amount of time. 09:29:55 so fix the forth engine to do that 09:30:19 yeah, I should 09:30:39 I haven't played with that forth in a while 09:31:32 my current forth is PPC only and our webserver is x86 09:32:40 maybe I'll hook it into my server and use it for freelance work 09:35:48 I suppose the apache serving pages on one port and communicating by shared mem and/or unix sockets with the forth engine which serves replies on another port is not an option 09:36:07 --- nick: mur_bb30min -> mur 10:01:04 I don't think you can reply on a different port. anyway, I want to use Apache for ssl 10:01:47 it isn't hard to make an apache module in C. especially with apache 2. 10:43:05 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 12:57:59 --- join: jesus (~jesus@pD955A8BD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:57:48 --- quit: Herkamire ("time for food, then ultimate frisbee") 14:52:13 --- join: tcn (~tcn@tc1-login42.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 14:52:22 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 14:52:27 yoh 14:52:27 hey 14:52:34 hey tcn 14:53:21 damn, we're making good progress on Retroforth 14:53:59 exciting developments? 14:54:54 we have an ELF loader 14:55:14 what're you guys doing with it? 14:55:36 for any use in particular? 14:56:19 makes it more modular.. you can have each driver in a separate .o file, and load them at runtime 14:56:51 and they can be written in any language.. forth, C, asm.. 15:00:58 I wanted it to run under Linux so I could test it without rebooting.. but Linux support has pushed us to add a lot of other good stuff 15:01:36 =) 15:01:56 We're using Linux syscall wrappers as "drivers" :) 15:03:07 usually harder than talking to the hardware directly 15:03:19 gives us a way to play with files and stuff without implementing anything really :) 15:04:26 harder? that's Forth dogma :) in this case it's easier 15:05:37 that's an opinion formed from personal experience before I ever used forth and I said usually =) 15:06:19 were you using GTK or something? 15:07:30 sockets and text console 15:08:40 yeah, i think i440r had a tough time with socket syscalls 15:08:54 and terminfo 15:09:08 I have had a hell of a time getting simple keyboard input with translation to work 15:11:02 maybe it's getting easy because i've been doing it for a few years 15:11:40 or because you're not trying to do anything Linus didn't anticipate 15:12:29 what kinda translation? 15:13:08 the usual keymap translation applied to all console input 15:14:03 i.e. not raw 15:15:49 but with the option of raw input? 15:16:34 correct 15:16:44 rather with the option of unbuffered input 15:18:27 yeah, that's unfortunate 15:20:08 i've seen better keyboard drivers where you can check the state of any key (up/down), there is no raw/cooked mode, so you can't hose the system by getting stuck in raw mode! 15:20:59 that's something I have in mind for Retro 15:22:09 I never quite understood that either since the raw code is needed to generate the cooked code and it is hardly a major sacrifice to keep 8 extra bits around 15:23:31 it's one of those quick hacks that's set in stone now because too many programs depend on it 15:24:04 everyone probably uses X now anyway 15:24:18 I don't except in dire situations 15:24:27 me neither 15:24:37 and then the dire situation usually passes while I wait for X to respond 15:24:49 I'm writing all my own programs now.. it's alot cleaner :) 15:26:10 quite 15:26:25 like I used to use abc2ps->ghostview.. now I just use abc2ps->ghostscript->PBM and use a little PBM viewer.. and I'm almost done with a direct ABC viewer (no postscript) 15:26:43 abc? 15:26:49 so it's gone from maybe 30 secs/page, to 3 secs, to instant 15:27:10 it's an ASCII music format 15:28:58 aha 15:29:24 so probably much prettier rendering than via ghostview 15:30:54 yeah.. the pixels line up consistently 15:31:56 and I can make it pretty interactive.. could include a text editor and tune index.. minimize keystrokes 15:32:31 btw, is this for Retro+ 15:32:33 ? 15:33:01 just Linux 15:33:25 no reason it can't run under Retro.. Retro can deal with C programs now :) 15:34:53 * hefner is away: wolfenstein 15:35:02 libc even? 15:36:07 not yet 15:36:19 well, only by linking with GCC 15:37:00 but loading shared libs is part of the plan 15:38:32 shared libs would only be used for backward compatibility 15:39:05 plain .o relocatable objects suit our needs.. you can always group them together with 'ar' 15:41:25 *nod* 15:41:31 in other words, we don't need ELF executables or shared libs 15:41:56 don't even want 'em, because they're not relocatable 15:42:23 wasn't suggesting them 15:43:18 yeah, anyways, that's what we're doing :) 15:50:19 well, see ya later 15:52:05 --- quit: tcn ("TinyIRC 1.1") 16:23:20 --- quit: mur ("MURR!") 16:33:04 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 16:33:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 16:39:29 kc5tja: yoh 16:43:41 --- quit: a7r ("Client exiting") 17:05:08 * hefner is back (gone 01:30:15) 17:08:33 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 17:37:09 re 17:40:48 hi :) 17:41:13 I've almost got my forth bootstrapping. I'm writing ; in forth 17:41:51 --- part: hefner left #forth 17:42:18 Neat. 17:43:05 * kc5tja is very, very tired. 17:43:20 * kc5tja spent three hours on the road today, driving up to Irvine and back. 17:43:38 * kc5tja is slightly sunburnt too, because I had the sunroof open in my car. 17:47:06 I was hoping to get some work done on FS/Forth today too -- I really need to get started on implementing LOAD. 17:47:33 * kc5tja needs to rework the parser to do it though. 17:51:12 some how my stack pointer is getting set to -9. most peculiar. 18:03:03 hmm 18:03:52 Yeah, accounting for stack pointer differences can be damn hard. That has got to be one of the things that took the longest time on my earlier Forth environments. 18:07:40 kc5: do you manipulate the stack pointer with gay abandon? 18:08:45 No, but that doesn't mean subtle bugs couldn't be introduced elsewhere that affects it. 18:09:14 The current version of FS/Forth has, fortunately, not had this problem. 18:09:15 it's not just different. it should be an address (something like 0x1000dfa0), and it's -9. 18:17:32 I forgot to flush the instruction cash in one case. Still don't know how that managed to set r13 to -9, but whatever. it's working now. 18:19:05 Hmm... 18:19:06 weird. 18:19:22 Maybe it was executing bogus code whose bitmap just happened to set R13 to -9. :) 18:22:46 anything's possible these days. 18:45:40 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@n1.dskk.co.jp) joined #forth 18:53:13 --- part: Jim7J1AJH left #forth 18:53:33 --- join: Jim7J1AJH (~jwt@n1.dskk.co.jp) joined #forth 18:53:55 re Jim7J1AJH 18:54:09 Hi kc5tja. 18:54:44 * Robert has been looking a bit at VLF receivers. Still trying to find a circuit simple enough to build. 18:55:12 If I've got it right, you just amplify signals received by the antenna and feed it to a speaker, right? 18:55:32 For signals below about 20KHz, of course 18:56:23 Yes. 18:56:33 * kc5tja would like to do that someday, but I just don't have the time right now. 18:56:45 I sometimes will tune my radio down to its lowest frequency (300kHz) and listen there. 18:56:58 You can here *some* of the atmospheric effects, but not a lot of them. 18:57:14 What ham radio bands are the most commonly used ones over there? 18:57:23 Here it seems to be ~144MHz. 18:57:56 2m is the most heavily used local band, and 40m and 20m seems to be the most heavily used HF bands. 18:58:11 Okay. 18:58:12 2m is 144-148MHz here. Where you live, I think it's 144-146MHz. 18:58:30 Something like that, yeah. 18:58:49 How much is national and how much is controlled by international agreements when it comes to frequency allocation? 18:59:05 I had a look at the Swedish frequency plan, but I really don't know much about other countries. 18:59:37 kc5tja: Howdy. 19:00:03 yay :) I got flush and ; written 19:00:30 Hi Herkamire 19:00:34 And jim 19:00:49 Herkamire: flush as in "flush dirty blocks to disk?," or flush as in flushing code cache? 19:01:03 Robert: The world is divided into three administrative regions, and the national governments have freedom to further regulate within those treaty limits. 19:01:32 Jim7J1AJH: OK, thanks. 19:03:05 flush instruction cache. perhaps that's a bad name for it :) 19:03:12 hi Robert 19:08:01 I was just wondering. 19:15:03 Are there any Mops users here? PowerMops 5.3.1 seems very unstable on my 10.2.6 machine. 19:16:59 I don't use mops. does it work with Mac OS X? 19:17:35 OK, this sucks. 19:17:47 * kc5tja tried to make ENTH/Flux, and boot it under a trial version of VMware. 19:17:51 It doesn't boot. :) 19:18:00 And of course, no errors are given. 19:18:30 Herkamire: Yes. Although the GUI seems to have become quite fragile in 5.3, with lots of things causing it to "Unexpectedly quit." 19:23:01 kc5tja: it wont ever 19:23:38 kc5tja: niether vmware or bochs/plex support 16/24bit lfb vbe modes 19:25:00 i played w them a lot. u could trust me. i also contacted authors of various 1floppy os-es & the videobios developer of bochs & many color4th developers 19:26:05 but they couldnt help, tho they ve pointed out a patch 4 the readable rewrite of the orig cm c4th 19:26:19 * onetom looks 4 the url 19:26:38 Well, that won't help me. 19:26:46 http://www.oakland.edu/~maslicke/colorforth/ 19:26:47 I already have a working version of ColorForth -- XcolorForth 19:26:57 Runs under X11. It's pretty neat. 19:27:01 I was looking to compare it to Flux. 19:27:08 But aparently, it isn't going to work. 19:27:09 that 1 runs in bochs &least ;) 19:27:18 SOOO....that means I'll just have to write my own someday. :) 19:27:26 yeah 19:27:28 and-least? 19:27:47 im also _very_ interested in such a version 19:27:52 oops, @least 19:28:57 im also interested in a character mode version of flux 19:29:04 * kc5tja nods 19:29:13 I'm considering it. :) 19:29:21 ive alrady made a character framebuffer simulator 4 flux 19:30:02 so i could try 2 start porting it, but its not a simple task 19:30:59 unless u understand both enth&flux 19:33:16 --- quit: Herkamire ("later guys") 19:34:01 Nope, don't understand them at all. Hence my desire to play with it. 19:34:08 * kc5tja will uninstall VMware now. 19:34:10 beb 19:34:14 bahh!!!!!!! 19:34:14 brb 19:36:54 --- quit: Klaw () 20:31:44 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois") 21:01:30 back 21:01:49 Sorry for being AFK for so long. I'm kind of making arrangements to move out of my apartment. 21:03:27 No problem... Doesn't look like anyone here needed you :) 21:03:42 *sniff!* :( 21:03:44 ;) 21:03:53 Apparently, I didn't miss much. :) 21:06:09 Still haven't found any VLF receiver I could build, and it's 6.06am. 21:06:28 All circuits out there use FETs or some other evilish thing that I don't have. 21:06:41 And there aren't exactly alot of them. 21:06:44 FETs aren't evilish. 21:06:57 There are tons of them; it's just that you don't have any. :) 21:07:22 Exactly. 21:07:29 * kc5tja is a bit surprised that there are no bipolar amplifiers for VLF use though. 21:07:32 Which however IS a problem ;) 21:07:50 I would have expected an emitter follower followed by several stages of very high gain amplifiers would be able to be used. 21:08:27 Can a short antenna (1 meter or less) be used? 21:08:35 Or will I hear absolutley nothing? 21:08:38 Not too effectively, I'd think. 21:08:56 My 10m antenna is virtually useless to pick up 80m signals, let alone VLF. 21:09:18 That's 10m band, not length. The length is 5m. :) 21:10:01 I'm thinking about like 10 meter distances here, not talking to the moon. 21:10:16 So just getting some sort of receiver would be nice. 21:10:30 No. To detect DC, you need an antenna that reaches to the edge of the galaxy, at least. :) 21:10:38 Yeah. 21:10:53 Your best bet for a VLF antenna is a loop, actually. 21:11:13 Would a simple CW transmitter using a 555 or something be OK (for very short distances of course)? 21:11:29 The diameter of the loop should be as large as practical, and with as many turns as you can make. It's just that you need a front-end amplifier that can handle the complex impedance that it'll deliver. 21:11:36 Robert: Should be. 21:11:53 * kc5tja was considering using the 555 for 160-190kHz band transmitters I've wanted to experiment with. 21:12:11 I'm thinking about ~10KHz or so here. 21:12:16 Those frequencies are our 1.75km band. 21:12:28 So that I can listen to it directly. 21:12:31 It should work. Just don't expect awesome range. :) 21:12:47 Like I said, a few meters would make me happy. 21:12:53 * kc5tja nods 21:13:06 Any ideas where I could find circuits? I've googled for hours. 21:13:15 For the 555 chip? 21:13:42 Well, the 555 chip isn't generally used to generate RF, so you might not find any dedicated to radio per se. 21:13:59 Oh, no. 21:14:22 I know how to make it generate a signal... 21:14:39 Only problem on the transmitter end would be how to feed the output to an antenna. 21:14:54 The big problem is the receiver, there I have no idea. 21:15:14 do you have access to op-amps at all? 21:15:24 In particular, low-noise op-amps? 21:15:36 (I don't have specific part numbers, unfortunately) 21:15:47 Hmm. 21:15:50 I have some 741s. 21:15:53 That's about it. :/ 21:15:59 You can generally make extremely high gain single-stage amplifiers with those. 21:16:06 741s would work, but they're noisy. 21:16:36 I'm thinking a hybrid solution would work, with a transistor pre-amplifier and an op-amp final. 21:16:44 741 would be good enough for a final. 21:18:03 Nice. So I should be able to create a receiver with just an antenna, 741s and transistors? 21:18:48 Just have to figure out HOW then. :) 21:20:22 Do you know how to actually engineer an amplifier? 21:20:40 If not, I could dig up my old 66dB AF amplifier design (uses bipolar transistors). 21:20:56 We might need to modify it to present a very large input impedance though. 21:21:37 Oh, I'd need some help with that. :) 21:22:05 Haven't really studied electronics... 21:22:26 Give me a day or two, and I'll try and re-create the schematic. 21:22:29 I have it somewhere around here. 21:22:35 Thanks! 21:22:46 Large imput impedance, why? 21:23:25 Considering the (lack of resonant) length of your antenna, it's going to present what looks like a straight open-circuit to the amplifier. 21:23:40 Remembering our previous discussion on impedance, maximum power is delivered when impedances are matched. 21:24:01 Thus, by making the amplifier have a very high input impedance, you'll get more efficient transfer of power from the air to the circuit. 21:24:44 Okay.. thanks again. 21:25:06 What kind of power supply are you using? 21:25:25 My circuit required 24V of power. 21:25:36 Got an adjustable supply, 3-15V DC. 21:25:38 Well, 24V supply. 24V "of power" doesn't make any logical sense. 21:25:49 Any way you can get two of those? 21:25:59 Put one on +12V and the other on -12V? 21:26:06 No. But I do have a bunch of 9V batteries. 21:26:10 And a 6V one. 21:26:28 OK, that should work. As long as they add up to 24V. :) 21:26:31 Maybe I should look for some other amplifier? 21:26:49 There are lots of designs out there... if I only could get some hints of what to look for. 21:27:07 Well, if I had my workbench set up, I could re-engineer the amplifier to use a single 12V supply. But I have no way of doing that right now. 21:28:03 * kc5tja hopes to make a circuit simulator as one of his FS/Forth applications. 21:28:07 Don't want to bother you TOO much. :) And it would be more convenient for me if I could use some other circuit using 15V or less. 21:28:08 PC board layout program being another. 21:33:34 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 21:33:48 Hi Herkamire 21:33:54 hi Robert :) 21:34:24 I'm going to see if I can get my forth to bootstrap this morning :) 21:34:37 s/this morning/tonight/ 21:35:55 Hehe. 21:36:08 Already 6.30, should go to bed soon. 21:38:44 it is after midnight here. I suppose I could get away with calling it morning :) 21:39:36 Heheh :) 21:39:40 * kc5tja wishes you luck. 21:40:50 I'll probably need it :) 21:42:25 Enth looks perverse enough to be "interesting." After all the reading about ColorForth(s), I guess I should try it. 21:43:22 Perverse...heh. 21:47:11 Jim7J1AJH: That's what I tried under VMware and Bochs, and it won't run. The emulators won't emulate the desired video device. 21:47:23 HEY.... 21:47:35 * kc5tja has a laptop. It's not color, but it should (hopefully?) still work. 21:47:48 * kc5tja goes to try... 21:48:40 I took the easy way and tried it on one of the old junk PCs lying around the office. 21:49:03 My idea of multitasking is to add another PC. :-) 21:50:24 * kc5tja doesn't have enough space for that. 21:50:36 And now that I will be moving, I'll have even less space to play with. 21:50:51 (that is, if I'm going to get the room I think I'm going to get) 21:58:06 OK, laptop doesn't like it -- not VESA. 22:00:24 I wanna try enth/flux. I couldn't get it to work on the space PC at work. I'm not sure I made the boot disk properly though. Shame it doesn't work in bochs 22:03:05 I didn't rebuild Enth, I just copied the supplied enth.img file to floppy with 'dd'. 22:10:03 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 22:10:11 hi 22:11:06 Serg_Penguin: G'day. 22:12:27 Hi Serg' 22:16:46 * Serg_Penguin feels messy and pissed off 22:17:50 by the prospect of laying phone and LAN wires in an old scrap building, along rusty water pipes 22:19:13 i now have reactor critical days ;(( everything falls out of my hands ;)) 22:19:21 =8( 22:26:16 brb - getting food. 22:44:31 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 23:21:51 back 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.06.17