00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.06.11
00:04:16 <kc5tja> re
00:04:37 * kc5tja is reading up on Chuck's MachineForth.
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06:00:37 <Serg_Penguin> hi
06:00:56 * Serg_Penguin just sucked some ascii-art games
06:01:09 <Serg_Penguin> and faqs\tutors
06:03:15 <Robert> :D
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06:16:25 <Robert> Hi cleverdra 
06:27:09 <cleverdra> hello Robert
06:32:10 <Serg_Penguin> hi
06:32:33 <Serg_Penguin> whadda you work on nowdays ?
06:32:51 * Serg_Penguin is messing w/ ascii-art
06:59:47 <Serg_Penguin> i started to write an ascii art editor, butt it's time to go home
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07:19:30 <kc5tja> brb
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07:49:39 <Serg_Penguin> hi
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07:54:16 <kc5tja> back
07:54:16 <kc5tja> doh
08:01:22 <Robert> Hi
08:01:43 * kc5tja is making plans for implementing FS/Forth under Linux currently.
08:02:39 <kc5tja> I still need to finish the DOS version though.  I need to implement support for BLOCK, BUFFER, UPDATE, FLUSH, and some means of recycling the dictionary space.
08:02:48 <kc5tja> Then it'll be "done."  :)
08:03:53 <Robert> Neat. I'm writing on a Forth compiler for the VM I'm working on.
08:04:19 <kc5tja> The Linux version of FS/Forth is going to be a clean rewrite -- a "fresh piece of paper" as Chuck would say.  :)
08:04:42 * kc5tja will have an increased emphasis on MachineForth and severe minimalism.
08:06:19 <kc5tja> Right now, I'm trying to work on its dictionary structure, and how to handle word name lookups as quickly as possible
08:06:30 <kc5tja> whie still not imposing a restriction of 5 letters per word.
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08:16:41 <TreyB> kc5tja: separate code and data spaces for run-time performance.  Use a hash table for name lookup.  It makes FORGET more expensive, but you don't do that very often.
08:18:31 <kc5tja> I FORGET very often.
08:18:49 <kc5tja> My current idea is very similar to how ColorForth works:
08:19:20 <kc5tja> 1.  Names are treated as arrays of 32-bit words.  The length of the array is determined by the name's length.
08:19:40 <kc5tja> 2.  Before searching the dictionary, the name is hashed to a single 32-bit value.
08:19:59 <kc5tja> 3.  The dictionary is searched (using parallel arrays) using the hash value as the key.
08:20:30 <kc5tja> Collisions are handled by comparing the actual name to the expected name to make sure we do (or do not) have the word we're looking for.
08:21:43 <kc5tja> Also, I cannot separate code and data spaces -- the dictionary has to be filled somehow.
08:25:43 <TreyB> FORGET will take less than a second, but much longer than just resetting the DP.
08:27:17 <ianni> morning.
08:27:43 <Robert> "Morning", ianni.
08:27:53 <kc5tja> Ideally, t(FORGET)+t(compile application) <= 0.1 seconds.
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08:29:02 <TreyB> I don't see why you can't reach that goal, kc5tja.
08:29:45 <kc5tja> I'm not saying I can't reach it.
08:29:58 <kc5tja> But a naive dictionary structure will patently prevent it.
08:30:06 <kc5tja> PygmyForth's compile time is notoriously slow.
08:30:22 <kc5tja> It takes it around 15 seconds to compile 5KB of code.
08:30:26 <kc5tja> (approximately)
08:30:31 <Robert> Wow.
08:30:41 <Robert> That's almost as bad as g++
08:31:47 * kc5tja nods
08:31:58 <TreyB> Also, for x86-family CPUs you should *really* consider separating code and data.  The nature of its caches means you should really treat it like a Harvard architecture CPU.
08:33:39 <kc5tja> How do you propose to do this?
08:36:20 <TreyB> You have to parcel out address space into appropriate domains: code, data and stack.
08:37:00 <TreyB> You have to keep separate HERE pointers for the code and data sections.
08:38:03 <TreyB> Even if you don't intend to build an ANS-FORTH system, you should consider looking at the ANS cross compiler proposal.  They've thought about this a lot.
08:39:33 <kc5tja> I'm not convinced that that degree of complexity is justified by what I want to do.
08:39:34 <kc5tja> Because that really does make things quite a bit more complicated.
08:40:29 <TreyB> It does, but if you care about performance you'll have to deal with it.  If a traditional unified dictionary works well enough for you, go for it.
08:41:16 <kc5tja> I care about compiler performance.
08:41:36 <kc5tja> My applications run so fast that even my current DOS compiler produces code too quick for me to notice its inefficiencies.
08:42:10 <TreyB> I consider the compiler an application, too.
08:42:29 <kc5tja> Yes, but the code space is its data space.
08:42:43 <kc5tja> So you don't gain any performance advantage by splitting the code/data space for it.
08:42:58 <TreyB> Ah, but you do.
08:43:28 <TreyB> The compiler has its own data that it accesses.
08:43:55 <kc5tja> Of course.
08:44:08 <kc5tja> Primarily word headers.
08:44:17 <kc5tja> and maybe two VARIABLEs.
08:44:55 <TreyB> You'd gain a lot from cache locality if you didn't have to traverse the entire dictionary space to look at the headers.
08:45:17 <kc5tja> Look above: I did say the new Forth implementation will use parallel arrays.
08:45:43 <TreyB> I don't know what you mean by "parallel arrays".
08:46:05 <kc5tja> I can't believe it's not a common programming technique.
08:46:10 <kc5tja> It's one of the first data structures I learned about.
08:46:21 <kc5tja> char *nameTable[MAX_ENTRIES];
08:46:30 <kc5tja> int lengthTable[MAX_ENTRIES];
08:46:41 <kc5tja> func *cfaTable[MAX_ENTRIES];
08:47:22 <kc5tja> Basically, each array is a table column.  The data is related by index into the array.
08:47:37 <kc5tja> So, nameTable[0], lengthTable[0], and cfaTable[0] would define one "record".
08:47:40 <TreyB> I get it.
08:48:20 <kc5tja> I often used this technique back when using BASIC in the old 8-bit computer heyday.  :)
08:48:38 <TreyB> You had to with a 64K per array limit.
08:48:54 <kc5tja> But, parallel arrays have a drawback: they're fixed in size, and they quite often are hard to size properly.
08:49:56 <kc5tja> Well, much, much, much, much less than that.  I truely do mean 8-bit computer days.  Where 64K was *maximum*, and BASIC and the ROM took up 16K of that.  Given BASIC's meta-data, and bytecoded representation of the source it was interpreting, that'd leave, maybe, 16 to 32K tops for my application's data set, a fair portion of that was taken up by strings.
08:51:06 <kc5tja> Also, memory constraints weren't the reason why; the reason was that BASIC didn't support structured types.
08:51:28 <TreyB> True for most BASICs.
08:51:45 <kc5tja> I'm not aware of a single 8-bit BASIC that supported structured types.  :)
08:52:01 * TreyB either.
08:52:24 <TreyB> But I worked with fancier machines, usually.
08:52:26 <kc5tja> The first one I remember was GFA Basic for the Atari ST.  Then VisualBasic for Windows.
08:53:42 <kc5tja> But anyway, this isn't too important.
08:53:59 <TreyB> Nope.
08:54:25 * TreyB goes back to work.
08:54:53 <kc5tja> The point is, most code will have a natural separation of code and data anyway, once the code is compiled.  The only exceptions are VARIABLEs, I think.  
09:09:38 <XeF4> parallel arrays are a very widespread technique, they're just "sloppy" so not many will openly admit tot heir use
09:09:41 <XeF4> to their
09:13:19 <kc5tja> "Sloppy"?  :)
09:21:54 <XeF4> "elements of a datapoint should be grouped together" and soforthsuchon
09:23:05 <kc5tja> Ahh.
09:23:23 <kc5tja> We can wrap it in jargon to make it legit: it's "table-oriented programming."  :)
09:23:44 <kc5tja> It uses the 'latest in database technology.'  :)
09:24:53 <XeF4> right and self modifying code->"advanced adaptive technologies"
09:25:31 <kc5tja> There you go.
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10:04:03 <a7r> hey
10:04:24 <Robert> Hi a7r 
10:05:01 <a7r> sup Robert?
10:09:01 <kc5tja> re
10:09:07 <a7r> hey
10:50:06 <kc5tja> HAHA!  Watching one of the Will Baden videos.  He said, "It's written in standard anus Forth."  :)
10:50:13 * kc5tja found that really funny.
10:53:25 <ianni> haha
10:53:35 <ianni> nice one..
11:01:28 <Robert> Hah, that's something a 5 year old Forth programmer would say. :P
11:02:01 <XeF4> no, it's something a suit would say ("A N S")
11:02:18 <XeF4> a 5 year old would almostcertainly say "ants forth"
11:03:56 <kc5tja> I still say ANSI whenever I see ANS.  :)
11:04:22 <XeF4> my problem with it is that if we call ANS forth "anus forth", what can we call Harvard architecture and still be consistent?
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11:11:13 <kc5tja> I don't see how they're related.
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11:43:30 <PoppaVic> hi kc5tja
11:44:05 <ianni> welcome, PoppaVic.
11:44:13 <PoppaVic> What's shakin' today?
11:44:50 <ianni> nothing much.
11:44:58 <Robert> Hi
11:44:59 <ianni> i should be programming.
11:45:02 <PoppaVic> Howdy.
11:45:11 <ianni> i tried a little forth, but i just never get anywhere.. 
11:45:21 <Robert> So should I.. but instead I'm on Kazaa looking for music :)
11:45:42 <PoppaVic> Yeah, I needed a brisk break ;-) The 'does' code is throwing me a bit, and Level-6 is starting to get me mightily confused ;-)
11:46:24 <ianni> heh heh
11:46:58 <PoppaVic> I was "Jus'Fine" (tm), until I got to all the foo-foo to support interactivity.
11:47:58 <PoppaVic> I told the wife... I suspect Level-6 needs to be further decomposed. And, I may need to do some header shuffling & amalgamation.
11:52:57 <ianni> u got a coding wife?
11:53:08 <kc5tja> Howdy
11:53:14 <PoppaVic> hi kc
11:53:25 * kc5tja is working on business stuffs today.
11:53:25 <PoppaVic> No, I merely boiunce verbage offa' her ;-)
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11:59:49 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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12:00:39 <Robert> sifbot: 1 dup swap over drop drop .
12:03:21 <ianni> heh
12:05:05 <Robert> :(
12:05:30 <mur> sifbot: 1 2 3 . . .
12:05:31 <ianni> :(((
12:05:37 <ianni> sifbot ." hi"
12:05:46 <ianni> sifbot: bye 
12:05:47 <mur> hmmm problems..
12:05:48 <ianni> hehe
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13:11:44 <Robert> Hi!
13:16:42 <I440r> hi
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13:54:58 <kc5tja> Back, for now.
13:55:13 <Robert> Hi :)
14:01:37 <kc5tja> Hehe
14:01:58 * kc5tja needs to finish his FS/Forth for DOS, so he can start implementing a Forth for Linux that suits his needs.
14:04:19 <Robert> What needs?
14:06:11 <kc5tja> Extremely high levels of interactivity is the biggest one.
14:06:34 <kc5tja> Current Linux Forths require you to edit a source file, go into Forth, test, and if it doesn't work, quit, re-edit, . . . ad nauseum.
14:06:56 <kc5tja> These Forths also do not promote the creation of very small, well-factored, single purpose applications.
14:07:52 <Robert> Okay.. I find IsForth pretty easy to work with, even though the interactive part isn't that good.
14:07:57 <kc5tja> I'm looking for a system that is highly interactive, that lets me treat code in managable chunks (few Linux Forths support blocks, let alone shadow blocks for offloading comments into a more managable space), compiles fast (most do satisfy this requirement, ironically), and just all-round gives me more control over my environment.
14:08:16 <Robert> I.e. no line history, editing is hard, etc..
14:08:31 <kc5tja> Well, I'll probably look to IsForth for inspiration.
14:08:41 <kc5tja> But the code I write will truely be my own code.
14:08:45 <Robert> Of course :)
14:08:54 <kc5tja> Have you used ColorForth, or under X11, XcolorForth?
14:10:21 <kc5tja> I'm looking to build a similar kind of environment -- one which emphasizes as close to 1:1 machine compilation as possible (e.g., my Forth will rely heavily on MachineForth concepts), one which provides a convenient block-oriented environment, etc.
14:12:36 <Robert> No, but I have tried Enth/Flux.
14:12:53 <Robert> Isn't it quite similar to Chuck's ColorForth?
14:13:41 <kc5tja> No.
14:13:45 <kc5tja> Enth/Flux is a Color ANS Forth.
14:14:02 <kc5tja> But I've been meaning to try that too.  I just don't feel like rebooting my computer to try it.  :)
14:14:04 <Robert> Hrm.
14:14:18 <Robert> Last time I looked it didn't look like ANS.
14:14:24 <Robert> With address register and stuff.
14:14:31 <kc5tja> Read Sean Pringle's page on it.
14:14:40 <kc5tja> ANS doesn't preclude the use of an address register.
14:15:03 <Robert> Then what's the difference, really? 
14:15:04 <kc5tja> ANS has no limitations about what additions you put in your Forth.
14:15:10 <Robert> From Chuck's Colorforth..
14:15:40 <kc5tja> ANS is heavyweight.  There is a large body of predefined words that are precompiled for you when the system runs.
14:15:55 <kc5tja> ColorForth, MachineForth, and even cmForth, all emphasize minimalism.
14:16:04 <kc5tja> The kernel does NOT provide a large body of pre-defined words for you to use.
14:16:12 <kc5tja> Instead, it provides the tools to write the words you need, as you need them.
14:16:30 <kc5tja> These words, of course, exist in ANS Forth too.  Words like , C, : ; et. al.
14:17:03 <kc5tja> ANS Forth is basically a standardized "common usage" document.
14:17:32 <kc5tja> Chuck's Forths, in contrast, does not encourage common usage unless it truely is beneficial for what you're doing.
14:18:13 <kc5tja> The result is that most ColorForth applications define a small set of compiler macros that enables the remainder fo the application to be written.
14:18:18 <kc5tja> For example, there is no ELSE in ColorForth.
14:18:33 <kc5tja> There is no BEGIN, WHILE, REPEAT, AGAIN, UNTIL, LEAVE, LOOP, etc.
14:19:00 <kc5tja> These control structures are replaced by a more simpler, more concise representation based on tail-call recursion optimization.
14:19:04 <Robert> Hmm.. that's not a very big difference, then. Just a "few" extra words.
14:19:20 <kc5tja> But it is a big difference.
14:19:32 <kc5tja> It's a huge difference.
14:19:55 <kc5tja> Because you can't create deeply nested control flow structures in ColorForth.
14:19:58 <kc5tja> It's just not possible.
14:20:21 <kc5tja> In the mean time, in ANS Forth, you not only can create deeply nested structures, you're actually *encouraged* to do so because they'll "run faster."
14:20:43 <kc5tja> (and for good native code compilers, they do, to a limited extent.)
14:20:55 <Robert> As opposed to factoring out inner loops?
14:20:59 * kc5tja nods
14:21:17 <kc5tja> Intel CPUs have outrageously huge subroutine call overheads if the BTB mispredicts the subroutine call.
14:21:31 <kc5tja> (which raises the issue of why it would mispredict it, but it does happen, and I digress.)
14:21:39 <Robert> Oh... I see. Then my Forth is quite "Chuckish", I guess. Only looping construct is { } - a never-ending loop.
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14:21:49 <Robert> And of course tail recursion and normal recursion.
14:21:55 * kc5tja nods
14:22:13 <Robert> I've found it works very well.
14:22:35 <kc5tja> I've found some really nice attributes with ColorForth and MachineForth code.
14:22:51 <kc5tja> The compiler macros that each application defines basically says, "Here are the words that I'll be using to write the program in."
14:22:51 <Robert> Often as simple to use as ANS loop constructs, but a lot simplier to implement.
14:23:33 <kc5tja> You can see how they work at a glance, usually.  As a result, the need to keep that thick copy of the ANS Draft Document next to your computer disappears completely.  :)
14:23:44 <kc5tja> Yes, very much so.
14:24:01 <kc5tja> I'm glad I didn't yet implement any control-flow structures for my FS/Forth yet.
14:24:27 <kc5tja> I was thinking of supporting that stuff by loading it in from blocks (and is still possible to do), but I'm going to change directions and move more closer to a MachineForth model.
14:27:22 <kc5tja> I will work hard to minimize FS/Forth for Linux even further than the DOS implementation.
14:27:32 <kc5tja> Not sure if it's possible yet, but we'll see.  FS/Forth is already pretty minimal.  :-)
14:29:07 <kc5tja> I'm going to move the outer interpreter to block storage, and load it in in source form.  That'll reduce the kernel size a small amount, and it'll virtually eliminate the need to contain so many interpretable words.  This will make compilation the preferred method of entering programs, thus making better use of the dictionary (since compiled programs will be more tightly packed).
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14:31:29 <deluxe> eLo
14:32:13 <Robert> Hi deluxe 
14:32:45 <deluxe> terve mur
14:34:16 <mur> terve! :)
14:34:21 * mur is going how ever :)
14:34:23 <mur> zzz :)
14:39:29 <kc5tja> Howdy
14:42:46 <Robert> Hyvää yöttä, mur 
14:44:48 <mur> hyvää yötä Robert
14:45:57 <Robert> Oops, one t too many there. :)
14:48:56 <kc5tja> brb
14:49:35 <mur> let's sleep now! 
14:51:39 <deluxe> mur: by chance located in turku?
14:51:46 <mur> no
14:51:49 <mur> lahti
14:51:52 <mur> mocing to helsinki
14:51:54 <mur> v
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15:32:41 <a7r> sup sup
15:32:44 <Robert> Hey
15:38:41 <kc5tja> re
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16:33:18 <a7r> hey
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16:59:51 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:03:08 <ianni> evening, sir
17:04:23 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ianni
17:04:38 <Robert> Hi :)
17:04:44 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
17:05:11 <kc5tja> re
17:06:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
17:06:11 <TheBlueWizard> last Sunday was wild :)
17:08:53 <kc5tja> What do you mean?
17:09:50 <TheBlueWizard> rememberr the IRC chat here last Sunday?  thin's ultraliberterian railings, Satanism, ...
17:09:52 <TheBlueWizard> :)
17:11:07 <kc5tja> Oh, yeah.
17:11:12 * kc5tja almost forgot all about it.
17:11:16 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
17:12:25 * cleverdra blinks sleepily.
17:12:51 <TheBlueWizard> hiya cleverdra
17:12:51 <cleverdra> Could it be... SATAN?
17:13:25 <TheBlueWizard> oh no....I hope you haven't become a follower! ;)
17:13:29 * cleverdra tries to remember more SNL Churchlady, but fails.
17:13:37 <ianni> LOL
17:13:45 <ianni> well that's probably the best one ;)
17:13:51 <cleverdra> blue - I'm an atheist, but I find atheistic satanism interesting.
17:13:57 <ianni> bah
17:14:00 <ianni> dont waste your time
17:14:04 <ianni> with atheism 
17:14:09 <ianni> be agnostic, it's cooler.
17:14:12 * TheBlueWizard never have heard of such thing!
17:14:21 <ianni> yeah, what is that?
17:14:34 <cleverdra> ianni - agnostics bore me^Uianni - atheism is such a time saver for me, though.
17:14:37 <Robert> You admit you don't know anything ;)
17:14:44 <ianni> studying all the religions of the past to me, is 1000x more useful than atheism. 
17:14:44 <TheBlueWizard> "atheistic satanism"...isn't that rather contradictory, hm?
17:15:01 <cleverdra> blue - no, it's not.  I posted a page with many FAQs the other day.
17:15:25 <Robert> As long as you're allowed to make up your own definitions, you're never wrong.
17:15:28 <ianni> i dont believe in any silly concept of a god who sits on a cloud.. doesnt make me atheist.. i just realize where others may err...
17:15:35 <cleverdra> the only *theistic* satanism I know of is that of the Temple of Set.
17:15:40 <ianni> true enough, Robert 
17:15:59 <ianni> isnt satanism related directly to christianity?
17:16:08 <TheBlueWizard> clog: which other day was that?
17:16:12 <ianni> besides being, completely crazy?
17:16:13 <cleverdra> That page of FAQs, ianni...
17:16:17 <cleverdra> blue - the day under question.
17:16:22 <ianni> yes? which page
17:16:54 <TheBlueWizard> last Sunday? hmm...I don't remember seeing the link
17:16:56 <ianni> i really dont understand atheism at all
17:17:02 <ianni> even though, i was one for a little while
17:17:22 <ianni> how can you define your beliefs by something you claim to be .. impossible?
17:17:35 <cleverdra> http://www.satanservice.org/ -- the "plus read these fine alt.satanism FAQs" links.  You'll have to read all of them, really: they contradict each other by presenting a slice of satanism as the whole of satanism.
17:17:53 <ianni> i'm not interested enough to read, honestly...
17:18:19 <cleverdra> ianni - OK, but just realize that much of what you've suggested about Satanism so far is ridiculous.
17:18:21 <ianni> i've read about satanism before...
17:18:23 <TheBlueWizard> oh...ok thx for the link
17:18:32 <ianni> cleverdra - how so 
17:19:32 <ianni> i dont care how christian or not any satanists are, i just dont understand.. just as much as i dont understand evangelical hardcore christians 
17:19:46 <ianni> why would you stick to one thing
17:19:57 <cleverdra> ianni - an atheism: my favorite conception (my own, ha ha) is thus: atheists define an infinite negative bias against theistic hypotheses.  That is, I will have to test an infinite set of non-theistic hypothesis before I get to a theistic one, such as "God did it."
17:20:23 <ianni> but God is a poor translation, even (and especially!) for the bible
17:20:27 <cleverdra> ianni - if you don't care to read the publications of either, it's not surprising that you never understand either.  It's fine that you don't care.
17:20:33 <ianni> english sucks, and humans suck
17:20:36 <ianni> ;)
17:20:51 <ianni> if you read translations of native american
17:20:55 <ianni> you'll see the word 'God'
17:21:14 <ianni> or maybe something else
17:21:52 <ianni> i dont believe in deities, my preconceived notions are too wronged by growing up around idiots
17:21:56 <cleverdra> ianni - I disagree with both 'sucks'.  Ignore 'God', then.  I'll never, ever, seriously consider a theistic hypothesis for anything... such as dying and 'going' to 'heaven', to take an extreme example =)  I'll always find the idea that I've been pulled into an artificial reality more plausable than the popular alternative interpretation
17:21:59 <ianni> </rant>
17:22:13 <ianni> cleverdra did you always take it so literally though?
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17:22:23 <cleverdra> ianni - take what so literally?
17:22:28 <ianni> heaven
17:22:36 <cleverdra> ianni - I've no idea what you mean.
17:22:50 <ianni> me neither
17:22:52 <cleverdra> ianni - that was just an example.
17:23:22 <ianni> *shrug*
17:23:30 * TheBlueWizard sighs
17:23:43 <cleverdra> blue - something wrong?
17:24:02 <ianni> i grew up in the capital of the bible belt. lots of crazy christians everywhere. i can't believe they all ruined me for so long...
17:24:14 <ianni> ignorance breeds ignorance
17:24:16 <TheBlueWizard> I thought it would be more obvious than the level of "I have no idea...."
17:24:42 <ianni> I was all of a sudden very pious around 14 or 15
17:24:46 <cleverdra> ianni - I wouldn't describe the mentality of a very religious person 'ignorant', but OK.
17:25:10 <ianni> religion is lame, only the truth matters. religion is like a weekly bingo meeting
17:25:16 <ianni> it's community, not truth
17:25:26 <ianni> the bible is literature
17:25:34 <ianni> i used to read it arond that age, 14 or 15
17:25:43 <ianni> some king james, catholic crap..
17:25:55 <ianni> all of a sudden in this last year i realized the hebrew bible was amazing
17:26:00 <cleverdra> (www.happyheretic.???)
17:26:17 <ianni> i mean, yeah, the bible is literature blabla.. but if you start to read a direct hebrew-friendly translation of geneis
17:26:19 <ianni> gensis
17:26:22 <ianni> it's TOTALLY different.
17:26:35 <ianni> so it puts everything in a much different perspective for me.
17:27:54 <ianni> most satanists or atheists just seem to be too busy labeling and refuting.
17:28:05 <ianni> there's a better way to deal with ignorance, sometimes
17:28:10 <ianni> like: One reason I receive the comment about science being a religion is because I believe in the fact of evolution. I even believe in it with passionate conviction. To some, this may superficially look like faith. But the evidence that makes me believe in evolution is not only overwhelmingly strong; it is freely available to anyone who takes the trouble to read up on it. 
17:28:29 <ianni> why does it even matter...
17:28:37 <ianni> its true or not, either way, its true
17:28:43 * cleverdra cringes whenever anyone describes science as a religion.
17:28:43 <ianni> brb
17:28:53 <ianni> hehe
17:28:58 <ianni> good
17:29:26 <ianni> i did a lot of interestign reading last year on quantum physics and shamanism an perception/cognition
17:29:29 <ianni> rolled into one
17:29:33 <ianni> really interesting shit
17:29:48 <ianni> made me realize a lot about science
17:29:58 <ianni> and its reliance on an observer
17:39:43 <TheBlueWizard> well, gotta go...bye all
17:39:51 <Robert> BYe
17:39:54 * Robert is going to bed.
17:40:25 <TheBlueWizard> bye Robert
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17:43:40 <ianni> cya
17:44:22 <ianni> San Francisco Examiner .
17:44:22 <ianni> "'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean   neither more or less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master   that's all.'" 
17:44:30 <ianni> woops - thats from alice in wonderland
17:44:40 <ianni> makes sense after a while
17:50:31 <kc5tja> I'm off to aikido.
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21:02:16 <TreyB> cleverdra: have you communicated with Sean Pringle recently?
21:05:16 <cleverdra> Trey - not in an incredibly long time.  Why?
21:06:27 <TreyB> I Emailed him about Enth a while back and didn't get a response.  He, of course, does not owe me one but I thought I'd check to make sure he didn't disappear into thin air.
22:06:21 * TreyB wishes all a good night.
22:06:43 <a7r> 2
22:06:48 <a7r> 1
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