00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.06.08 00:10:29 --- join: snowrichard (~chatzilla@c66.190.103.110.ts46v-01.mrshll.tx.charter.com) joined #forth 00:19:57 --- quit: a7r ("Client exiting") 00:34:10 --- quit: snowrichard ("ChatZilla 0.8.23 [Mozilla rv:1.3/20030603]") 02:07:05 --- quit: kc5tja ("[x]chat") 02:19:39 --- join: rsnow2 (~rsnow2@c66.190.103.110.ts46v-01.mrshll.tx.charter.com) joined #forth 02:20:02 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 02:21:05 sifbot: 2 2 . 02:21:26 --- part: rsnow2 left #forth 02:28:52 --- join: karingo (karingo@55.portland-15-20rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 03:36:03 --- quit: karingo (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:51:55 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4610.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 04:52:10 Hi 04:52:17 'morning 04:52:33 Not anymore, but nice to see you anyway :P 04:53:08 just a question of your position 04:53:33 We both use CET: 04:53:52 but we *could* be somewhere else 04:54:37 ok, a hypothetical 'morning to you then 04:54:47 You could be right outside my Window. Or slaughtering a New Zealander. 04:54:52 :) 04:55:02 Good hypothetical morning, Speuler. 04:55:58 maybe even the sun, and its position is just a reflection of your mind 05:00:45 Yes. 05:00:49 Be paranoid. 06:53:05 --- nick: Speuler -> NuclearWinter 07:03:33 --- nick: NuclearWinter -> Speuler 07:31:47 --- part: Speuler left #forth 07:48:20 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4610.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:49:28 kennt jemand das: http://www.menuetos.org/ ? 07:49:33 ahem 07:49:40 Ja :P 07:49:43 anyone knows this one: http://www.menuetos.org/ ? 07:49:45 But I haven't really used it. 07:49:54 Maybe I tried it once, but that's it. 07:50:04 written a forth for it ? 07:50:10 :) 07:50:53 No. :) 07:51:15 is it interesting ? 07:51:30 Don't even remember, but it looks cute. 07:52:35 'll try it 08:19:31 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 08:19:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 08:19:52 FS/Forth got its first compiler in last night. 08:20:01 I'm not happy with the results. 08:20:43 I can make it work only for one-definition-per-line. If I put two or more definitions per line, it successfully compiles the first, but then errors on the second. 08:21:23 I also found myself adding some forward-parsing words which are unable to adequately handle ParseWord's error result. 08:21:56 Hence, I need to re-write the parser and compiler from scratch, and update the interpreter to use the new parser. 08:23:37 :( 08:24:20 ParseWord needs to ultimately handle refilling the buffer now. 08:24:49 ParseWord will invoke ?REFILL, which in turn calls REFILL if we're at the end of the buffer. 08:25:43 REFILL, in the case of supporting only keyboard input, is easy -- print a prompt and get another line of text from the user. 08:26:12 But, when reading stuff from, say, blocks, things will need to be updated again. 08:26:18 And it's not entirely clear how this will happen. 08:28:14 The only "clean" way I can think of supporting this is to use an input stack of some kind, where the items on the input stack identify current buffer offsets, which block, string, or file and file offset the input came from, etc. 08:28:27 use a variable, contents representing input source, where keyboard is one. you might use file handles and block numbers as contents too 08:28:44 That doesn't help me. 08:28:50 What happens when I reach the end of a block? 08:29:04 end of file 08:29:19 I have to somehow restore parser state to its previous input source. 08:29:24 resume refilling from prev source 08:29:28 Duhh 08:29:36 That's the problem. 08:29:48 From where does the data to do this come from? 08:30:11 you saved them 08:30:15 Saved them where? 08:30:51 input source on stack, as well as pointer to buffer with previous buffer contents 08:31:03 also line number 08:31:16 Yes, that much is obvious. 08:31:22 I already know all this. 08:31:44 My concern is that it has to be able to access this data at any moment, regardless of the depth fo the return stack. 08:32:12 i found that looping through the line numbers by do ... loop saves me some work, as loop index is stacked inherently 08:32:22 What line numbers? 08:32:28 I'm using blocks for source. 08:32:41 line of block, line number or offset into file 08:32:57 I can't use line numbers; otherwise constructs like 65 LOAD 67 LOAD won't work. 08:33:04 fine. offset into block would do too 08:33:19 why ? you saved block number as well 08:33:56 Because restoring the line number will bring me either to the beginning of the current line (hence repeating 65 LOAD in the input stream) or to the next (hence never executing 67 LOAD). 08:34:06 * Speuler is just busy adding nestable includes to bashforth 08:34:44 See, you're still missing the whole point of my consternation. 08:34:51 Saving parser state is not the issue. 08:34:57 *WHERE* to save it is. 08:35:32 And since any word can invoke ParseWord at any time, I can't see how to implement it without a dedicated input stack of some kind. 08:35:40 you may consider creating a word for each file you load 08:35:46 non sequitor 08:36:41 that word, on top of knowing from what sources the system has been built, also gives you the space to write status data 08:37:25 That breaks : foo [ xyz LOAD ] ; 08:37:39 for saving the one buffered input line, i'd use an mem buffer, not located in the word's data area 08:38:11 I already use a keyboard-specific terminal input buffer. 08:38:23 And I'll be interpreting directly out of a block buffer for block support. 08:38:36 truit breaks it anyway, if the file contains definitions 08:38:55 I wouldn't be so stupid to set xyz to a block that contains definitions. 08:39:02 :) 08:39:10 one never knows :) 08:41:03 Maybe if I move ?REFILL out of ParseWord and into InterpretBuffer and ] . . . 08:43:03 Calling ?REFILL just before ParseWord each time through the interpret/compile cycle. This way, forward-parsing words don't necessarily invoke ?REFILL -- if ParseWord fails, it does so with an error message and QUITs. 08:44:10 No, that still doesn't solve the problem of restoring state at the end of the current input stream. 08:44:25 Dedicated input stack it is. :-( 10:12:39 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:20:47 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba410b.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 10:33:40 --- join: thin (~thin@stu01161.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 10:33:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 10:33:50 hey cleverdra, long time no see :) 10:38:55 --- join: TheBlueWizard (~tbw@pc33dn1d.ppp.fcc.net) joined #forth 10:38:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 10:39:03 hiya all 10:39:55 hey tbw 10:40:02 hiya thin :) 10:42:15 --- topic: set to '#Forth site: http://forth.bespin.org || 'pure' linux forth coded in asm: http://isforth.clss.net || Also remember to check out Jeff Fox's articles, located at http://www.ultratechnology.com/dindex.htm' by thin 10:42:36 moved the topic to the entrymsg 10:43:31 mmhmm 10:57:32 --- quit: XeF4 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 11:05:55 A Forth implementation is an interactive compiler where you can modify and extend the language of the compiler. You can easily add new compiler words such as BEGIN..REPEAT and IF..THEN or variations when you need them. Unlike other languages with fixed primitives, coding ni Forth is an act of extending the language itself to suit the problem that is being solved. All of this in a nice little package that is simple, small, and low-level but without limi 11:06:16 because of its extensibility. 11:06:31 IRC doesn't like long lines. 11:06:42 comments about my paragraph? 11:06:59 "coding ni forth" 11:07:00 typo 11:07:17 And I didn't see all of it 11:07:30 "...and low-level but without limi" 11:07:44 but without limits because of its extensbility. 11:08:12 Thanks. 11:09:06 it looks good to me 11:10:51 * Robert thinks it looks fine.- 11:11:37 That's what I like about Forth... the ability to _NOT_ include the things you don't like. 11:12:13 I mean.. brainfuck could almost be said to be a Forth subset :) 11:12:41 lol...though I wouldn't think of programming in that language 11:13:10 many languages could be implemented in forth, so they could be "Forth subsets" .. 11:13:26 if you say brainfuck is a subset 11:14:04 re 11:14:11 Sorry; been hacking on FS/Forth. 11:14:48 Stripped its compiler out, and now I'm reworking bits and pieces of the parser to allow easier implementation of the next compiler. 11:15:32 now the above paragraph has become: 11:15:37 A Forth implementation can be described as an interactive compiler. The language, interpreter, and compiler are part of the same package. The interpreter is the interface, and when you code, it interprets what you type. When you code a new WORD - the Forth equivalent of functions- it calls the compiler and the compiler adds the word to the dictionary. 11:15:38 When you code in Forth, you extend the language itself by adding new words. This leads to a different perspective of coding an application in Forth. The coder can modify the language to fit the application, and Forth gives the tools to do this easily. 11:16:43 meh.. i think it's a real brain twister to write an introduction to forth :/ 11:16:51 in the clearest, most accessible way possible 11:17:55 Forth is a hyper-flexible and highly configurable language, emphasizing changing the language, like modeling of clay, to fit the precise requirements of your application. 11:18:40 * kc5tja isn't necessarily too happy with that either, but that's my contribution. :) 11:18:49 thin: Writing an entire beginner's tutorial, or just a short introfuction for your page? 11:19:00 don't worry about being blunt, you won't hurt my feelings 11:19:16 * thin appreciates honesty/bluntness over politeness any time of the day 11:19:25 i know, my writing sucks :P 11:19:34 robert: yeah, i want to write an introduction article for the site 11:20:07 but kc5tja's already written one sentence that blows my two paragraphs out of the water with it's lively adjectives :P 11:20:14 s/it's/its 11:20:44 * thin starts chanting to himself "lively adjectives! lively adjectives! or is it adverbs?" 11:21:18 :D 11:21:44 Just hand over the work to him. His punishment for being better than you! 11:22:14 strangely i missed the day that english class told us all about nouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives, etc. yet i still got an A in grade 12 english. i don't even know why they would teach nouns, verbs, etc 11:22:40 robert: ewww, nothing wrong with a person being better than someone, why should they be punished? 11:22:47 I'm joking. 11:23:41 yeah but i won't let anybody get away with those kinds of jokes any more now that Ayn Rand has opened my eyes :P 11:24:33 thin - I'm glad to know that you are no longer counted among my jealous enemies. 11:24:57 cleverdra: heheh, was i ever? 11:25:07 cleverdra: i thought we got along fine :P 11:25:22 Hey cleverdra :) 11:25:30 cleverdra: so you've read Ayn Rand? 11:25:40 Been a long time since I saw you last... 11:25:59 thin - quite a bit, but not for a while now. 11:26:04 hello Robert. 11:27:35 Hey, I worked hard to attain the linguistic mastery that I currently have. And I still pale in comparison to so very many people... 11:27:50 cleverdra: actually i've been a bit depressed because of adopting her philosophy.. there does not appear to be any escape from coercion in this world :( 11:28:14 hiya cleverdra 11:28:16 kc5tja: yeah, I told myself that I need to practice writing more :) 11:30:58 * thin pokes cleverdra.. wake up :P 11:33:57 Well, I'm bit miffed that my Forth's compiled image is somehow 500 bytes larger than it used to be, with no appreciable code changes to justify the extra bytes. 11:34:12 I have a lot of *blank* blocks now, after doing some code cleanup, and yet, the generated image is larger. 11:34:14 It makes no sense. 11:34:23 hmm, weird 11:34:37 what changes did you make? 11:34:46 Without the compiler, FS/Forth is now about 5.5K in size. 11:34:54 TheBlueWizard: Code clean-up, like I said. 11:35:02 Refactoring, reduction of superfolous code, et. al. 11:35:08 only code cleanup? now that's really weird 11:35:11 Updated shadow documentation. 11:35:13 hm, does anyone know of a good Linux/ARM Forth? 11:35:25 * kc5tja doesn't. 11:36:04 cleverdra: eforth, maybe pforth? 11:36:05 So now my Forth image is going to be rather huge. With the compiler in place, I expect it to consume at least 6KB of memory, and with block support, probably close to 12K. 11:36:06 :( 11:36:13 And that's a so-called "minimal" Forth. :( 11:36:16 there's an eforth that runs on the GBA 11:37:03 cleverdra: gforth/bigforth are really portable linux forths, so they could probably run on your linux on ARM 11:37:20 bigforth is native code compiling -- it generates x86 opcodes. 11:37:21 kc5tja: um, I suppose you have a size goal in mind? 11:37:23 gforth is portable. 11:37:55 TheBlueWizard: Well, 12K seems a bit excessive for a Forth environment that doesn't have editor and assembler integrated into it, yah? 11:38:08 I do use subroutine threading, but still, 12K is large even by those standards. 11:38:43 * thin is confident kc5tja will figure out what's making his forth bigger than it should be, if anything.. :P 11:38:48 ah! yes, it's excessive...hmm...must be something somewhere that cause some bloating (not necessarily *code* bloat, mind you) 11:39:01 perhaps some pygmy bug? 11:39:04 No. 11:39:18 Pygmy has nothing to do with code generation. 11:39:29 ok, well the code generataion might have a bug ? 11:39:38 The target compiler is the only thing that generates code, and I simply and utterly didn't change that code. 11:39:38 some sort of loop that is adding cruft? 11:39:50 hmm 11:39:57 but maybe you revealed a bug already in there 11:40:03 But how? 11:40:16 no idea, bugs are unfathomable ;) 11:40:35 There is only one path of execution to compile a word header, and only one path of execution for code generation. 11:40:45 I know that the code generator is working; otherwise, it'd be crashing left and right. 11:40:57 But the header generator is also working. 11:41:11 cleverdra: there's one i know of 11:41:21 not sure whether you'd call it "good" 11:41:31 maybe edit the compiled FS/Forth with an hexeditor and look for anything strange .. 11:41:35 That leaves only name placement in the dictionary, and my memory dumps suggests that IT is working too. 11:41:38 dsforth 11:42:07 cleverdra: oops. seen "linux" too late 11:42:13 just seen "arm" 11:42:28 * kc5tja sighs 11:42:39 Well, I can't find anything unusual right now, so I'll just leave it be. 11:42:47 But you can pretty much bet I will come back to this problem. 11:43:00 hmm...let's see: no change in compiler itself, just code cleanup...I assume kc5tja has older version, so, that'd leave only one possible thought in my mind...the new (cleaned up) code must've hit some pathological cases 11:43:26 cleverdra: forthmacs, a forth language implementation for acorns arms-based computers http://pweb.uunet.de/schwalm.hb/ 11:43:40 TheBlueWizard: A colon definition is a colon definition. 11:43:52 TheBlueWizard: There's nothing pathological about it. 11:44:21 * kc5tja tries something... 11:46:02 Support for block memory moves and memory dump utility takes up 310 bytes, since they're written in high-level Forth. 11:46:17 That represents a large chunk of it (in fact, THE largest). 11:46:34 I must still have bits of the old compiler lying around in the various blocks that I forgot about. 11:47:09 This, then, makes some sense. 11:47:52 --- quit: TheBlueWizard ("BitchX: No windows left!") 11:48:22 --- join: TheBlueWizard (~tbw@pc33dn1d.ppp.fcc.net) joined #forth 11:48:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 11:48:35 I accidentally killed something hehe 11:49:55 OK, adding support for HERE , C, and ALLOT adds 124 bytes. 11:50:09 Combined with the memory dump/copy routines, that totals very much near the bloat I observed. 11:50:24 So, false alarm. 11:51:37 so you actually added new code after all, right? 11:52:23 No, I forgot to take some old code out. 11:52:35 But it's code that I'll need for the new compiler anyway, so I'll keep it there. 11:52:45 ah...problem solved (hopefully)... 11:53:04 For now. 11:53:15 I can't wait to go to 32-bit environment with this thing. 11:53:24 The compiler I can write for that will be substantially better optimized. 11:53:36 you can comment these code out and verify that the compiling of the new version doesn't really grow much at all 11:53:39 16-bit native code for x86 is horribly inefficient space-wise. 11:54:13 16-bit? hmm... 11:54:47 TheBlueWizard: You knew FS/Forth was currently being developed for DOS. I told you a while ago. :) 11:54:51 kc5tja: are you emulating 32-bit in FS/Forth ? 11:54:57 thin: Hell no. 11:55:40 I don't have enough CPU registers as it is, let alone trying to emulate a 32-bit environment on top of that. :) 11:56:03 I have a short, scattered memory :) 11:56:34 its not "horribly inefficient space-wise" if there were no such thing as 32-bit cpus :P 11:56:48 The 32-bit version of FS/Forth will be a grass-roots rewrite of FS/Forth, once again. 11:57:09 thin: No, even in the face of the 65816 and TMS 9900, the 8086 has horrifically inefficient 16-bit code. 11:57:29 why? 11:57:32 65816 is substantially more compact (and faster) than 8086 assembly language (and 80286 for that matter). 11:57:38 ah 11:57:47 * TheBlueWizard agrees with kc5tja....emulate a 32-bit environment in 16-bit environment will bog that thing down horribly...besides, switching to 32-bit isn't too hard...just set up a good GDT and IDT, make several needed code (especially video and keyboard routines) and jump into protected mode 11:57:52 And this is despite 65816 only having one true general purpose register. 11:58:16 TheBlueWizard: The 32-bit version of FS/Forth will boot from GRUB. 11:58:39 I have zero intention of writing my own boot-loader. 11:58:59 hmm...ok...no need to set up 32-bit environment....just set up video and keyboard code there 11:59:02 I tried that back in the days of Dolphin development, circa 0.3, and while doable, it is very hard to debug. 11:59:56 * TheBlueWizard nods....having done the boot code before...took him about 15 tries to get it running cleanly, and made it MSDOS compatible as well 12:00:24 I didn't. I didn't even bother with DOS compatibility. 12:00:39 I had BIOS boot the boot-sector, and I set everything up from there (even loading the remainder of the binary). 12:01:36 the reason I did that was to learn how to do it, plus to exploit existing DOS utilities such as Norton Utilities to fix it up if I botch the FS coding, for example...have to learn how somewhere 12:02:02 Right now, I'm not at all sure how I'm going to handle video though. I guess I'll write a program to set it in a VGA graphics mode, probe the relavent VGA registers, and use that data to explicitly set the video mode in my Forth. 12:02:23 TheBlueWizard: Since I was booting entirely from floppy, that didn't concern me. 12:02:31 * TheBlueWizard has some books on video coding 12:02:52 I'd advise you to use text mode for now....much, much easier to start with 12:03:23 And totally useless for most of my needs. 12:03:34 most important thing is to get keyboard stuff down pat...it is more difficult than text mode outputting at this point 12:03:49 hmm...ok 12:03:56 * kc5tja has written many OS kernels before. I'm familiar with keyboard handling and whatnot. 12:04:12 All of my kernels have booted into text mode previously. 12:04:20 But I do not want text mode for my Forth environment. 12:04:50 --- part: Speuler left #forth 12:04:51 Here's why: switching from, say, a text-editor to a DTP program, the screen will constantly change video modes, which causes monitor stress as it resyncs. 12:04:54 I don't want that annoyance. 12:05:09 Plus, what otherwise *is* an instantaneous change of application will APPEAR to take many seconds. 12:05:10 text mode is l33t, it forces you to use pretty ascii graphics for menuing and stuff ;) 12:05:13 (for me at least, with my monitor) 12:05:28 I see...ok 12:06:21 I'm sure the pre-release versions of FS/Forth Native will use text-mode, but eventually, it will boot into graphics mode, and stay there. 12:06:21 I don't think VGA programming is too difficult anyway...and there are a lot of resources on Net on it anyway...wish ya good luck; I never have done any VGA programming myself 12:06:33 VGA programming is HHHHHHHAAAAAAARRRRRRRRDDDDDDDD. 12:06:38 Stuffing pixels is trivial. 12:06:43 Setting video modes is all but UNDOCUMENTED> 12:07:00 hmm....ok 12:07:01 Using 2D accelerators is all but undocumented. 12:07:05 3D is right out of the question. Flat out. 12:07:16 Unless you have $10K+ for a license to get the docs from some video card manufacturer. 12:07:24 Or find some means of reverse engineering. 12:07:28 2D accel. is much harder to get info on...I was thinking of classic VGA programming environment 12:07:43 That's what I was going to use. I really don't (yet?) have a need for much anything else. 12:07:52 Most of my graphics requirements will concentrate on productivity applications. 12:08:15 * TheBlueWizard nods re: post classic VGA stuff being hard to get info on, thanks to moronic manufacturers beholden to M$ 12:08:41 * kc5tja nods 12:09:01 Many modern video cards don't even support classic VGA video modes any more, so it's still hit-n-miss. :( 12:10:13 * TheBlueWizard then realizes kc5tja can't use BIOS while in 32-bit mode...then it's definitely harder to set up VGA mode...once that's done, then it's same as "regular" VGA programming 12:10:36 they stopped supporting classic VGA mode?! I find that hard to believe 12:10:45 * kc5tja nods 12:11:00 damn....fuck damn! 12:11:00 Many cards support the video memory layout of classic VGA, but only for software compatibility. 12:11:11 The hardware itself, however, isn't guaranteed to be true-blue VGA anymore. 12:11:24 (except the registers used for drawing of course) 12:11:34 Yeah. 12:11:55 I get it now...so the key part is setting up the VGA mode....figuring out what register and associated values to poke in 8-P 12:12:11 Check out the VESA site sometime -- VESA 3.0 officially standardizes that 640x480 and all the classic video modes need not be supported, AND IF THEY ARE SUPPORTED, THEY NEED NOT HAVE THE SAME VIDEO MODE NUMBERS AS THEY USED TO. 12:12:18 Talk about a major fuck-up. 12:12:27 Yes. 12:12:38 ASSUMING the hardware is still true-blue compatible. 12:13:06 * TheBlueWizard hasn't seen VESA 3.0 doc stuff...last he checked is VESA 2.0 docs, and it says VGA mode is standard...and he thought that's that 12:13:25 If not, then one must resort to reading...no...deciphering (and sacrificing small furry animals) C source from Linux drivers. 12:13:33 Nope. 12:13:34 Not anymore. 12:14:28 --- join: XeF4 (mockery@12-245-108-157.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 12:14:28 I actually find the Linux memory allocator code easier to read than (so far) all the video drivers I've ever seen for Linux. 12:14:30 thanks for informing me of the happenings with the video stuff...I hadn't worked on my little OS project in last 2+ years, so I'm out of touch with the happening 12:15:17 not too surprising condsidering the effort expended to cover 4237564 video cards outta there :-P 12:15:32 I think it is absolutely trivial to support hardware standards. 12:15:47 Hardware is one of the few things where you can do so rather easily. 12:15:55 (from the software's perspective, at least). 12:16:21 The job of the CRTC should be flat-out universal across *ALL* video cards. 12:16:35 At the very least. 12:17:16 THe last thing I want to do is set a video mode on a video card, only to have the frequency off just enough to prematurely damage the horizontal flyback transformer in the monitor. 12:17:21 Of course, LCD displays are totally safe. 12:17:29 I absolutely agree....today's hardware development technology is very good...too bad it had to be braindamaged for marketing and competitive purpose 12:17:40 But even multi-sync monitors can be confused just enough to cause adverse video effects which I am not comfortable with. 12:18:06 * TheBlueWizard nods 12:19:21 the M$ monopoly has definitely distorted the progress of technology in a really bad way 12:20:06 When (if?) I ever build my 65816-based PC, the video output for it will be fixed-frequency, with a fixed set of resolutions (if even that), and at least 16 colors out of a palette of over 32768. 12:20:13 Yes, very much so. 12:20:28 Publication standards became internal standards, and I don't like that. 12:20:50 * TheBlueWizard nodsnods 12:21:56 and with the upcoming Palladium initiative, we may be in trouble....I am not sure; there are so much talks on both sides 8-P 12:22:09 Don't even get me started on that. 12:22:13 That will put me out of business. 12:22:21 I don't even want to go there. 12:22:25 you have a business? 12:22:32 I have already sent a few choice words to Mr. Fritz about that. 12:22:38 Yes. 12:22:47 Software development and computer consulting. 12:22:58 kc5 - how will it put you out of business? 12:23:03 ah 12:23:14 you mean Mr. Hollings? 12:23:38 SC senator? He's supporting the Palladium initiative? 12:23:41 cleverdra: TCPA will require that all components of a PC be registered and certified. This, of course, will cost money. And EVERY time you change the configuration of the PC in any substantial way, you must re-register and re-certify. 12:24:03 kc5 - that's too absurd to even happen. 12:24:09 ever happen. 12:24:18 it *can* happen 12:24:21 cleverdra: FUCK absurd, that's what is being pushed by Microsoft, Intel, and the feds. 12:24:32 No, it can't. People buy computers so that they can use them. 12:24:43 Wrong, it CAN happen. 12:24:58 We'll talk in ten years about it, OK? 12:24:59 Fritz Hollings is corrupt anyway; I don't even bother to send anything to Congress 12:25:33 cleverdra: By then, the laws might be repealed, I don't know. Anything at all can happen in 10 years. 12:25:47 But in the short term, TCPA is bad juju. 12:25:53 * XeF4 rcalls not so long ago when the DMCA was "too absurd to actually happen" 12:26:02 * kc5tja nods to XeF4 12:26:29 And the Patriot Act and its successor are too absurd to happen. 12:26:32 cleverdra: we already have closed video, closed printer, closed modems, etc. thanks to your own stupid logic that having people buying things will "improve" things! 12:27:03 theblue - uh, I don't follow how your description of my logic follows my past statements. 12:27:28 TheBlueWizard: I agree with cleverdra here -- your statement doesn't make sense in the context of his postings. :) 12:27:34 * TheBlueWizard sighs 12:27:50 you don't get it 12:27:55 However, the "stupid logic" that you speak of IS pervasive in the industry and government. 12:28:17 Things which are scarce resources should be bought. I have no problems with this. 12:28:32 But standards aren't scarce; intellectual capacity is not bound by material franchise. 12:29:14 Locking people into "solutions" (I love that word!) represents an artificial scarcity which undermines the very precepts of a capitalist economy/society. 12:29:27 I accept the development of something for which there are no previous standards and that meets the needs....but I'd insist on open information 12:30:41 Yup -- basically what I said. 12:30:42 * TheBlueWizard nods re: false economy created by gross abuse of IP 12:31:14 * kc5tja considers starting a homebrew computer club, a la the one that started Apple eons ego. 12:31:44 Compatibility between computers is based on OPEN standards (source code satisfies this, de facto). 12:31:45 the: one can take *some* comfort in knowing a false economy can't be sustained forever 12:32:52 is microsoft an unnatural monopoly (besides the fact it uses FUD marketing) ? 12:32:58 thin: Very much so. 12:33:23 They used heavy-handed, strong-arm tactics to acquire their current market position (which has already been proven as monopolistic in the court of law). 12:34:00 But, why would the government bite the hand that feeds them? Consider: the overwhelming majority of our military forces, and virtually ALL of our civilian Federal and state governments, all run on Windows. 12:34:05 That's frightening. 12:34:13 now, many people buy things and they don't care about the underlying standards; they simply want something is familiar, that works (never mind their low expectations, like crashing is a "normal" experience etc.) and is "standard" on a high level (e.g. Word XP doc would get opened on a M$ Windows machine with M$ Office XP) 12:34:13 --- join: crc (~crc@ACA6966F.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 12:34:32 Microsoft, of course, knows this. And the Feds know, "Hey, if we punish them, they can backlash on us, and we'll be screwed." 12:35:27 kc5tja: a natural monopoly (i.e. a monopoly that occurs in a completely lassez faire marketplace) is actually OKAY. but most monopolies you see today are actually created by government laws & protection.. 12:35:59 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 12:36:05 thin: I have zero problems with a natural monopoly. Oracle is a natural monopoly -- they treat their customers well, and vice versa. They earned that right. 12:36:21 thin: Microsoft, however, treats not only their customers like shit, but their distributors and sales reps too. 12:36:25 OTOH, Oracle advertises "unbreakable" software =) 12:36:30 i'm curious if microsoft could have existed in a lassez faire economy? can they survive in a lassez fair economy? 12:36:42 kc5tja is correct...I'm working for a federal gov't agency, and at my agency the standard is definitely M$...everything is M$...even if there is a competitor's product that vies with M$'s version, choose M$'s version; and one would have to fill out papers for reasons to use major third party products (I do have a directive paper in my file about that) 12:37:09 thin: I invite you to call MS Technical Support some day. Paying the $192 fee per incident is well worth the time taken to really talk to the tech support rep, and find out what it's really like working there. :( I really feel sorry for these guys, because they're bullied by their own superiors, bullied by development groups, etc. 12:37:13 blue - disturbing, isn't it? 12:37:39 kc5tja: actually, it is Bush admin that changed the prosecution of M$, quickly turning it into a settlement on a term very favorable to M$ 12:38:28 $195 incidence fee *if* you are use some subscription stuff (I forgot the name)...$245 otherwise 12:38:36 TheBlueWizard: The settlement occured while Clinton was in office. They "donated" billions of dollars worth of Windows to "needy" schools. Yeah, that's a real loss. That sounds awfully like insider trading if you ask me, seeing as how they knew it'd create a vast new supply of future customers. 12:39:11 cleverdra: yup....what can I do? I already dropped several hints and amazingly, they fail to see the logic...oh, they know I am a Linux fan and all that 12:39:28 Of course, we'll put Martha Stuart in the slammer for earning $40K (out of billions that she owns -- less than 1% of 1% of her net worth). 12:39:29 kc5: do the tech speak freely about such things to anyone who calls and pays the incident fee? 12:40:12 Gee, server down again? Isn't it funny that we live in a world where it is accepted that computers can fail? You're all OK with this? 12:40:23 XeF4: Once you get to schmooz with them for a while, yeah. Every tech I've spoken to there has had the same basic story: "We know our products sucks. But what can I do? I'm trapped." 12:40:51 from what I heard about M$ tech calls (I only made security related phone calls, which are free), the tech support can be a bit uneven at times 12:41:10 No, I had to pay the big-bucks to get to speak with someone about our problems. 12:41:20 Back when I was working for Armored Internet. 12:41:36 I want to do that. 12:41:36 kc5tja: they said that (re: "our products sux")? hmm! 12:41:41 TheBlueWizard: Yes. 12:42:36 hmm...I also was told that M$ support on several occasions can be real fast and professional....go figures 12:42:38 Actually, here's how he put it, "Yes, I agree, based on what you're telling me, our product does not meet your application profile. I wish we had some way of helping to address that problem. I wish our engineers would listen to our monthly problem reports. But they don't. They think it's perfect." 12:43:33 weird, this monitor is fluctuating in brightness 12:43:34 hmm! that's called "Not Invented Here" syndrome...that'd be the downfall of M$ 12:43:50 Downfall? It's their savior. 12:43:55 thin: your monitor is being Borgified ;) 12:43:59 Embrace and extend, they call it. 12:44:38 kc5tja: yeah, it will work if people are not pissed enough 12:44:59 99% of the people who use MS products aren't pissed, though. That's the bugger about it. 12:45:13 Like you say, "Oh, it crashed again. That's normal," is their response. 12:45:33 "Gee, too bad WordPerfect isn't here anymore. That was a good word processor. Lot better than Word." 12:45:40 Duhhh . . . yet they refuse to do anything about it. 12:45:40 kc5 - they don't know any better. 12:45:48 My ass they don't. 12:45:58 * TheBlueWizard nodsnods 12:45:59 They're too AFRAID is what it boils down to. 12:46:07 * TheBlueWizard nodsnodsnods 12:46:15 kc5 - bullshit. 12:46:25 Consider: every population of people who have had their rights taken away has, at one point, gotten close to militant, if not exceed that boundary, in standing up for themselves. 12:46:33 Where is the equivalent in the computer industry? 12:46:42 most people are still using computers on a very basic, juvenile level... they're happy with msn im, email, and typing up simple documents in word 12:46:44 then again people ruin their health by running on junkfood continuously, the problem is hardly unique to computing 12:47:06 as a collary, lots of new ideas that the underlings offer to the mgmt are often shot down because of mgmt's fear of the unknowns 12:47:20 XeF4: While true, it's also true that the junk food manufacturers don't virtually disallow one to eat healthy. 12:47:45 The computer-using population are the only people who have not stood up for their rights in a pro-active manner. 12:47:54 most people are lazy thinkers, and only become more lazy with age because of the constant reinforcing of the neural pathways 12:48:22 problem is the education...it is so difficult to explain to a non tech guy why closed systems is so bad 12:48:28 Official notice: the channel has descended to self-satisfying nonsense. 12:48:39 cleverdra: You offer no proof to the contrary. 12:48:50 cleverdra: thank you 12:49:24 kc5: some hafe stood up in a proactive manner 12:49:24 I'm the one who's actually in the business, and I have a right to complain about it because it affects my bottom line. 12:50:35 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 12:50:43 Microsoft has fucked over AxisInternet in their "Sidewalk" program, sought the BSA after Armored Internet (for no apparent reason), and now the TCPA is threatening my consulting and custom software development business. 12:50:48 hey 12:50:49 How do you think I feel about this? 12:50:58 kc5: hmz and the street-using community in many places tolerates some abhorrent traffic arrangements 12:51:06 although I don't have a personal business, but I do want to fight in a meaningful manner for the right to have an open, reasonably cheap computer 12:51:07 BSA? 12:51:14 hi a7r 12:51:30 reasonably cheap isn't a right 12:51:31 Business Software Alliance -- the public legal arm of Microsoft and Adobe, designed to bully companies into "registering" their software. 12:52:07 kc5 - 'their' -> MS/Adobe, 'their' -> companies? 12:52:11 They couldn't touch us, of course, because all our NT copies were legal and registered, and most of our services were running under Linux anyway. They didn't appreciate that. 12:52:20 XeF4: oh yeah? that'd create castes 12:53:09 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-184-225.phnet.fi) joined #forth 12:53:14 ohh!!! i remember BSA.. i remember companies would sic BSA on their competitors, even if the competitors actually had fully registered software.. the BSA agents would come in and just waste everyone's time verifying all of that 12:53:16 cleverdra: "Yes." If they have Microsoft or Adobe (and many others; BSA is a huge alliance of big-name companies) software, they go through an audit process that rivals the IRS'. 12:53:31 thin: Yup. 12:53:32 blue - indeed. Ten years from now a poor child who tries to access the web will have his older sister gangraped in front of his father. 12:53:33 theblue: small-scale manufacturing aof computers is bloody expensive. who do you want to compell to mass-produce them for you? 12:53:34 We got hit. 12:54:08 hey! hey TheBlueWizard! 12:54:11 kc5 - interesting. 12:54:17 hiya mur!!! :) 12:54:25 kc5tja: i can't believe BSA has the right to enter the premises and to search all the computers.. 12:54:27 kc5 - how did they express their unhappiness with your setup? 12:54:28 And just like thin said, it just wasted our time. 12:55:13 XeF4: what do you want me to do then? live in the woods? :-P 12:55:18 cleverdra: Well, before they looked at our written records, they accused us of using unlicensed copies of Windows NT Server for our network services boxes, and changing over to Linux only after we were informed of the BSA investigation. 12:55:27 Which is a complete lie. It's a bully tactic. 12:56:11 So you said 'nice fantasy', and they fled, crying, into the night? 12:56:18 After their "investigation," they concluded we were totally legal, but their attitudes were quite offensive and adverserial. 12:56:24 BSA is a parapolice (I'd dare say paragov't) thug, yeah 12:56:53 BSA is one example how comppanies use government wrongly 12:57:10 cleverdra: I assume you live in the United States. Have you ever been audited by the IRS? 12:57:20 kc5 - not yet. Why? 12:57:20 thebluewizard: i think it's immoral to work for the government, but i'm being a little bit of a hypocrite because i'm trying to get a summer job at the local library :P 12:57:25 cleverdra: Don't. 12:57:51 cleverdra: My parents did, for a lousy $5000 that got overlooked back when my dad ran his own business, 20 years prior. 12:57:56 thin - why do you think that? 12:58:12 * mur is a bit about the opposite 12:58:18 cleverdra: For something we could have paid, up-front and then and now, they still persued legal action, they attempted to confiscate personal belongings, and attempted to take my parent's house. 12:58:23 to work for the government is to sanction them.. i thought you read Ayn Rand ??? 12:58:24 i rather work for other than firms 12:58:32 kc5 - people that assume that you're guilty are always fun to deal with, I'm sure. 12:58:43 public instances and organizations, who are for public good, not private good 12:58:44 thin: working for the gov't per se isn't immoral at all...it is just that the top political people are corrupt...think: does working as a cop is immoral? clearly not...yet police is a part of the gov't 12:58:57 cleverdra: The BSA isn't much different, except they didn't attempt to confiscate the computers. But they still wasted an awful lot of my time, the time of my employees, etc. 12:59:05 you know, if all the taxes were moved from income taxes to sales taxes then the IRS wouldn't be invading people's privacy 12:59:11 kc5tja, bsa visited there? 12:59:20 thin - I'm not clear on what you mean with 'sanction', sorry. 12:59:23 mur: While working for Armored Internet, we got hit. 13:00:09 did they find anything? 13:00:12 cleverdra: sanction the government's immoral actions.. by working for the government or letting the government steal from you, you are sanctioning the government's right to do so.. 13:00:32 kc5 - they interview people? "Hello. Have you stolen MS software?" "No." "Are you a PIRATE?" "No." "When was the last time you stole MS software?" "Uh, I haven't." "It's OK -- I steal MS software sometimes. Do you know about softare X, that lets you crack MS software?" "Uh, no." 13:00:33 mur: They found four legal copies of Windows NT, and four copies of GNU/Debian Linux. 13:00:40 cleverdra: Yes. 13:00:47 i dont see taxes as stealing but for public good 13:00:54 cleverdra: And if inspections are required, they even soebpena. 13:00:57 but my and thin opions differ so much 13:00:59 thin: you are confusing service with politics.. 13:01:03 so what? the public doesn't have the right to steal money from others 13:01:16 thebluewizard: cops are immoral inasmuch they are paid with stolen money 13:01:25 Taxes aren't stealing; taxation without representation is. 13:01:29 it is hard to see if the money is not used for public good but insanities like weapons etc, th 13:01:38 When I pay taxes, I want to know that my money is being used for its stated purpose. 13:01:40 * cleverdra is immoral because he is paid with 'stolen' money. Oh dear. 13:02:02 kc5 - the 'state purpose' is the only problem with US taxes, that I can see. 13:02:03 yeah, it's pretty hard not to be immoral 13:02:06 I think we should leave thin and his definition of moral alone. 13:02:14 of course it depends on area and country how effective the money is used for humans best 13:02:24 state purpose or stated purpose? I specified the latter. 13:02:26 thin: OK...go live in an island with no electricity, no paved roads, etc....all by yourself...have fun! 13:02:27 it is Ayn Rand's definition, it is Libertarian's definition 13:02:47 kc5 - states raise taxes to fix roads, direct all the money to everything but roads, and then introduce a 'new' tax to fix the 'horribly maintained roads' two years later. And then again, four years later. 13:02:57 thebluewizard: don't make the mistaken assumption that the government is necessary for infrastructure 13:02:58 thin, correction: libertarian right 13:03:10 The: electricity and paved roads are overrated, but I want some others on the island with me =P 13:03:14 most people think the government is necessary without really thinking about it 13:03:42 electricity is important 13:03:45 * TheBlueWizard now sees thin's political thinking, and rejects it 13:03:50 cleverdra: Yes, I know that. But my DMV material all includes a nice pie chart detailing how my money is being spent. It doesn't need to go into great detail (it'd be nice if they did though), but a little something saying, "Here's what we've been using your money for so far." 13:03:51 but it's absurd that the private comppanies produce it 13:03:54 the energy that is 13:04:02 kc5 - we have taxes today whose purposes no longer make sense. My idea is still that a 'Garbage Collector' and 'Intentional' legislature be set up. The former to sweep through legislation and nullify that which no longer makes sense; the latter to nullify new legislation that doesn't even internally make sense. 13:04:12 thebluewizard: heh, read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, or any good libertarian book :P 13:04:26 kc5 - that's nifty. 13:05:02 * TheBlueWizard doesn't subscribe to liberterian thinking....it is a stupid philosophy 13:05:03 thebluewizard: and you have not seen my "political thinking" because it requires a book to explain the entire rationality of it, and i assure you that it is logical as far as i know 13:05:22 I don't know who Ayn Rand is anyway 13:05:30 when anything more logical that comes along, i will drop my old philosophy and pick up the new one instantly 13:05:49 clever: there are courts for the latter; I'd rather see the former handled by every law having some expiration date 13:05:51 thin, i doubt, it's hard to admit to have been wrong 13:05:57 at least to the most of people 13:06:19 blue - satanic author, very interesting -- some find her fiction long-winded, but I enjoy it. 13:06:26 it is not rational because it assumes the essential good natured behavior of people....example: pollution...if a company can get away with that, it will 13:06:29 clever: that way the body of law could never grow larger than parliament could get around to renewing in a given term 13:06:45 cleverdra: why do you stoop so low as to name call ? "satanic author" :/ 13:07:25 hmm...I seem to have stir up even more stuff here :-P 13:07:27 thin - erm, that's not a name-call. Take a look at modern Satanism. It's also very interesting. 13:07:37 * cleverdra is being semi-serious. 13:07:46 ugh 13:08:05 right-wing anarchism will most probably lead into many natural cathastropes 13:08:05 Semi-serious??? Are you saying you are thinking about becoming a Satanist?????? 13:08:31 thebluewizard: read this article: http://gos.sbc.edu/r/rand.html 13:08:31 satanist is christian phonoma and it has nothing to do with political views and discussion 13:08:41 cleverdra! 13:08:53 I haven't seen you in here in ages. 13:09:04 mur - you might also take a look at modern Satanism -- you've clearly skewed impressions. 13:09:19 trey - hey there. 13:09:34 * mur wonders what is it about satanism now 13:09:42 libertarians DO NOT assume the good naturedness of people, that's not the point. the point is, is it moral to steal from a man who thinks and produces for himself? 13:09:45 how about brief one line explanation how it is related to this discussion? 13:10:08 half of the libertarians advocate a minimal government, the other half advocate no government 13:10:14 well 13:10:24 mur - it isn't except that people started talking about after I 'satanic author'. 13:10:27 those who advocate minimal government recognize problems with pollution, etc 13:10:28 Satan, the name, is definitely a Christian concept. Much of his behavioral aspects have also been heavily influenced by Christianity. But the god represented by Satan in the bible actually existed for quite some time before the old testament. Egypt, for example, had a god very much like our Satan, which played an instrumental role in the balance of humanity. 13:11:09 kc5 - there's a branch devoted to that one: the Temple of Set. Very theistic. 13:11:16 thin: Let's not forget a big part of the libertarians are anarchists. :) 13:11:26 kc5tja: Um, it is also Judaic concept...if you read the Book of Job, you will see that there :) Also in Genesis, with the fall of Adam 13:11:33 satan is only concept of christian and jew (sorry to forget the name) religion 13:11:33 here we go: http://www.satanservice.org/ -- lots of FAQs for anyone interesting. 13:11:38 * mur is not 13:11:41 TheBlueWizard: Those are all part of the old testament. 13:11:57 mur - you're wrong. Sorry. 13:12:16 I also think Satan (called Shaitan, not sure of its spelling) appears in Islam 13:12:33 mur: Whether you subscribe to the philosophies or not, being closed minded is mutually exclusive with being learned. 13:12:33 No, "Bush" he's called. 13:12:34 islam has also been derrived from jewish (argh) 13:12:34 ;) 13:12:44 blue - I head 'Shaitan' referenced as a pagen antecedent of Satan. /me shrugs 13:12:45 kc5tja: yup 13:13:08 pagan, sorry. 13:13:15 robert: if you re-read what i said, i mentioned the anarchists 13:13:19 jewish, christian and islam are derrived from same orgin 13:13:20 robert: as in, no government 13:13:22 Right now, I'm more animistic, ironically. I believe all living things and even inanimate objects, have some form of soul or spirit. 13:13:35 cleverdra: I know the word Satan means Adversary...Shaitan same meaning in Arabic 13:13:54 thanks MUR! you've changed the topic to something as stupid as satanism! 13:13:54 thin: Good. It's important to not only talk about libertarianism as capitalism... like you often do. 13:13:56 kc5 - do you worry about the feelings of inanimate objects? I used to do that =) Refusing to vocalize my preference for toy A over toy B. 13:14:00 thin, :) 13:14:08 URHG 13:14:11 calm down 13:14:12 heh 13:14:14 blue - ah, OK. 13:14:15 this is not coming anything :) 13:14:19 kc5tja: what do you mean by being ironic in reference to your belief? 13:14:21 every one talk own subject 13:14:36 cleverdra: Ironically, sometimes, yes. Especially entities that so obviously have personalities. My car, for example, has quite a noticable "personality." 13:14:58 :) 13:15:05 mur: you were wondering why ppl mentioned satanism, and you asked that.. but you should've read more closely.. 13:15:05 TheBlueWizard: Monotheism wiped out animism over the years, as it's primarily practiced in Africa, and the old, old druids in Europe. 13:15:10 kc5 - cars also have eerily facial fronts. 13:15:17 kc5tja, as note 13:15:25 monotheism FORCED to wipe out animism 13:15:27 it was not choise of people 13:15:32 but choise of invaders 13:15:34 mur: Yes, I know. 13:15:47 I didn't say anything about whether it was willing or not; I just said it overtook it. 13:16:13 it can be dangerous nowdays some thousand years later 13:16:22 when people have taken a critical look to religions 13:16:32 cleverdra: Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages, which features an interesting system of using three (or occasionally, four) consonants for root words, and forming various words by putting vowels and certain other consonants in it...like islam and salaam have the root word s-l-m 13:17:53 kc5tja: I see...so I take it you're a former Christian, hm? 13:18:01 blue - interesting. Are there many common root words? 13:18:05 or a former monotheist, for that matter 13:18:08 Baptized Roman Catholic, to boot. :) 13:18:28 cleverdra: many...it is an integral part of those languages 13:18:29 blue - curiously, what inspired that question? 13:18:39 so are you now atheist or pantheist, tbw? 13:19:10 I've found Catholicism simply didn't explain the world to me, nor did it help in resolving matters or disputes. I found prayer to be utterly useless -- too much focus on personal desire (salvation) and not enough meditation (introspection; the REAL way to find 'truth.') 13:19:26 cleverdra: oh, explaining the word Satan/Shaitan....that is how I kinda remember Islamic spelling ;) 13:19:29 note: the objectivist philosophy is anti-mysticism. those who believe in any forms of mysticism (any religion) are essentially savages, they believe that there are causeless effects in this world, that existence doesn't exist, that A is not-A 13:19:45 mur: I'm sorta a Christian 13:19:51 these are the 2 of the 3 primary axioms which we all use whether we recognize it or not.. 13:20:04 TheBlueWizard, agnostic then? 13:20:12 we use them when we argue, when we speak in terms of proofs, when we eat food, etc 13:20:20 mur: oh no, not an agnostic 13:20:32 what then? if you are not monotheist or are you? 13:20:43 blue - the question to kc5, I mean. 13:20:59 mur: you really have to fit everyone into a clearly labeled box don't you? ;) 13:21:20 ok, lemme put it this way: I'm Christian, but I don't subscribe to various mainstream variety...kinda hard to explain 13:21:37 well depending how you see the world, atheist (0 gods), monotheist (1 god), pantheist ( 2+ gods), or agnostic (not sure) 13:22:07 mur: that's a good summary of religion category 13:22:11 atheist is anti-god and agnostic doesn't have any religious stance iirc 13:22:35 i.e. a person who does not know of god or other religions can be said to be agnostic 13:22:42 agnostic is of opinoin that he is not sure about some view 13:23:02 or that existent can'tbe proved or disproved so one can't know if god(s) exist or not 13:23:13 thin: there are two kinds of atheism: one of a passive type (i.e. simply don't believe in existence of a deity), another is pretty much anti-deity 13:23:21 * thin is highly amused by how much the channel conversation has devolved :D 13:23:46 thin: Actually, I think it evolved, considering our last set of threads. :) 13:23:50 thebluewizard: no.. look at the word. a-theism 13:24:03 My favorite conception of atheism is my own (period. End of statement. Don't read furthur =) ), that of defining an infinite scientific bias against theistic theories. "God did that." will always be tested only after an infinite set of non-theistic theories have been tried. 13:24:06 well, I, for one, am done with that religion and politic stuff :) 13:24:06 thin: Both are described by the word. 13:24:23 thin, a-the-ism >:) 13:24:25 kc5tja: actually i think politics/capitalism is higher up from the mud than religion is 13:24:59 thin: Civilized conversation is higher up the ladder than mudslinging. 13:25:02 thin: the a- prefix is a Greek prefix that usually means "not"...it also acquires the sense of absence of something, like abiotic 13:25:12 kc5tja: touche :) 13:25:21 well 13:25:24 thebluewizard: exactly. not-theistic 13:25:34 theist = god 13:25:43 what about views or religion of marx and freud ? 13:25:44 :) 13:25:46 (i'm too lazy to type out the whole definnition :P) 13:25:49 theist = one who believes in god. 13:25:54 mur: marx and freud are both stupid 13:25:59 mur: so is kant, hegel, etc 13:26:08 atheist = one who does not believe in god. 13:26:12 mur: many stupid people who've exerted too much influence on this world' 13:26:15 the = belief, ism = wany of thinking 13:26:18 It says nothing of how militant he is about the topic. 13:26:22 thin: yes...and that doesn't change my description 13:26:25 thin - so is everyone whose works you haven't read, but that deserve negative comments from Ayn Rand? 13:26:36 what does "believe in sy" mean? could u define it? 13:26:51 thebluewizard: hey, i don't complain when others say things that don't change my description :P 13:27:06 mur: actually, the- is a shortened form of theo- which is from Greek word theos, meaning a god 13:27:11 what does "i believe in joe" or i believe in hammer" mean? 13:27:11 onetom: sy = something? 13:27:12 please dont mix politics and religions in one! 13:27:16 thin: sure 13:27:31 TheBlueWizard, that sounds more familiar 13:27:32 onetom - look up the verb 'to believe'. 13:27:33 hi all anyway :) 13:27:36 onetom: believe in something - to take bullshit on faith ;) 13:27:43 TheBlueWizard, you're right 13:27:48 thin: unless one points out the gaps in your description :P 13:28:02 cleverdra: i could look up, but i would like u 2 define it w ur own words 13:28:12 Here are my gods: Einstein, Feynmann, and Hawking. 13:28:35 * TheBlueWizard gently mix politics and religion...and created a new being: Prez Bush! 13:28:38 All the rest are mere demi-gods. :) 13:28:42 cleverdra: marx, freud, kant/hegel have probably influenced the modern world the most in terms of philosophy.. 13:28:48 TheBlueWizard: "Gently?" 13:28:57 I'm joking, ok? 13:29:02 bush is exploiting religion in political aims 13:29:03 Hawking is looking a bit worse for wear these days, but at least Einstein and Feynmann are immortal =) 13:29:06 in quite dirty way 13:29:09 TheBlueWizard: I know. :) 13:29:16 bush see himself leading a crusade against islam 13:29:23 mur - nonsense. 13:29:28 not at all 13:29:50 * TheBlueWizard seems to stir things again X-P 13:30:00 but i didn't meant now the political aims 13:30:00 Heheh :) 13:30:03 TheBlueWizard: See what you did? 13:30:09 * TheBlueWizard laughs 13:30:13 this reminds me of my gaming on a MUD. everybody gets in the same room and kills each other for points >:D 13:30:14 * cleverdra suddenly remembres that he's trying to get simplified chinese output on his Z. 13:30:18 Go stand in the corner . . . 13:30:31 * mur picks up axe! 13:30:33 Z? 13:30:39 yup....it is my nature to make a joke from time to time, whence people made huge asses out of them ;) 13:30:50 * mur picks up gold worth 4000 credits!! 13:30:52 thin - Sharp Zaurus. Linux/ARM PDA with Qtopia. 13:31:19 hence my desire for a Linux/ARM Forth. 13:31:27 now i understand why TheBlueWizard is an op on this channel ;) 13:31:31 Ahh, the conversation has come full circle, at last! 13:31:31 :) 13:31:53 when the conversation ends 13:31:58 there is one very important question to learn 13:32:00 cleverdra: so you have linux running on it? 13:32:04 "what did i learnt from this?" 13:32:05 thin: why? I didn't ask for an op; I was given an op a long time ago.... 13:32:10 thin: They ship with Linux. They're a Linux-based PDA. 13:32:25 You ought to learn something from every argue 13:32:29 clev: you want to pay me to develop one, don't you? 13:32:33 * mur asks everyone what did they learn this time? 13:32:35 thebluewizard: i440r must've recognized your talent ;) a person who can stir up flamewars is a valuable ally ;) 13:32:46 mur: I learned that I wasted about an hour of my time when I could have been coding FS/Forth's compiler. :) 13:32:53 gnite 13:32:57 uh....I don't have that skill!!!! 13:33:02 joejt, onetom 13:33:08 oh :))) 13:33:15 jo8 >:) 13:33:20 * kc5tja is ROTFLMFO! 13:33:20 thebluewizard: don't worry, so do i.. 13:33:30 and the part about my "nature" blurb was itself made in jest 13:33:38 joccakát, mur (=jó éjszakát) 13:33:50 kc5tja: LMAO 13:34:08 mur: yeah, thats right guten8 13:34:10 :) 13:34:17 szakat? 13:34:33 night sleep? 13:34:50 are those words Hungarian? 13:34:54 igen :) 13:35:17 mur: I learned many rude things 13:35:32 * kc5tja considers speaking ham-speak... :D 13:35:43 cleverdra: your best bet is gforth unless you don't like gforth.. 13:35:46 It's almost as bad as 1337$)34k. 13:35:50 kc5tja, too bad one can't speak of religion and politics there, right? 13:36:00 gforth is big, bloated, not completely documented, and coded in C 13:36:10 mur: Not with entities outside our national border, no. 13:36:16 But within, it is acceptable. 13:36:21 ugh 13:36:25 I'm sure ham radio has political and religious talks 13:36:26 i thought it was international rule 13:36:48 rule-to-be-respected, if you understand what i am looking for 13:36:51 is it a law to not speak of politics/religion on international ham ? 13:36:54 TheBlueWizard: All the time. But they're always amongst US operators. 13:37:01 thin, no not law 13:37:05 but i think it's common practise 13:37:14 hm, lame 13:37:23 == 200% less argues :) 13:37:29 Well, it's designed to prevent international warfare. 13:37:37 ham operators should have fun calling up some guy in other countries and making fun of them.. 13:37:38 hmm 13:37:46 hmmm 13:37:58 thin: They do. 13:38:10 Most of the slurs I hear on the air today are patently anti-Jew. 13:38:18 it is sad that so few places are in peace :P 13:38:26 Talk against blacks is virtually non-existant. 13:38:35 * thin likes making fun of americans & canadians & everybody really.. ;) 13:38:45 And talk about how Japan is conquering our insurance industry is also non-existant. 13:39:01 thin: Eh? 13:39:20 * mur coudl be actaully minanarchist ... 13:39:21 nah, i'm only joking, i don't make fun of ppl for the most part 13:39:31 thin: You missed my little joke. 13:39:31 ;) 13:39:35 oh 13:39:35 could be but i dont think really.. 13:39:36 thin: you like making fun of your countrypeople? 13:39:37 doh 13:39:55 I think it's important for people to make fun of their own countrypeople. 13:40:03 thebluewizard: nah i don't, but maybe i should make fun of my countrypeople :P 13:40:09 If you can't laugh at yourself, you have no right laughing at anyone else. 13:40:13 ah...ok 13:40:15 TheBlueWizard, hehe, i've heard that finns were the onlyones who do fun of themselves too :) 13:40:21 besides thin, that is probably :) 13:40:29 "national patriotism" is sorta b.s 13:40:34 That's what I *love* about British humor. It's always a complete parody of themselves. 13:40:51 mur: if you are minarchist, then that means you'll appreciate libertarianism & ayn rand 13:40:57 no 13:41:04 mur: I am absolutely sure Finns aren't the only ones to do so 13:41:04 i'm not right-wing 13:41:06 mur: half libertarians are minarchists 13:41:10 mur: ayn rand is a minarchist 13:41:15 as i said, and there are also left-wing anarchist 13:41:17 mind you 13:41:20 as i explained last time 13:41:52 you've got your labels all screwed up :P 13:42:11 well, I need to go....have fun chatting! 13:42:15 see you tbqw 13:42:31 thin, as well as right wing there is alwaysd the left opposite to it 13:42:36 bye mur :) 13:42:39 later th 13:42:42 see www.politicalcompass.org 13:42:48 s/th/TheBlueWizard/ 13:42:56 no, see the original political quiz :P 13:43:06 bye kc5tja 13:43:12 it's the same figure but it's turned around 45 degrees 13:43:14 duh 13:43:54 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 13:44:20 politicalcompass.org is a really bad quiz.. it asks a number of biased questions 13:44:46 turn around the diagonal so that it's a rectanlge 13:44:53 then replace the labels 13:44:59 it's exactly the same figure! 13:45:06 but the labels just vary 13:45:19 mathematicians woudnt make diagonal charts either 13:45:31 who cares about the fact it's the same figure 13:45:36 i'm not talking about that 13:45:36 there is clear origo (0,0) and maximum (100%,100% 13:45:41 why do you have to make so much noise? 13:45:51 well 13:46:03 then you'd notice that there are left-wing anarchists too 13:46:18 you just refuse to believe part of the truth 13:47:14 there's no such thing as communistic anarchism 13:47:30 as i told you several times 13:47:41 the politicalcompass.org has misleading labels 13:47:58 and even more misleading questions 13:48:09 quizes in general are stupid 13:48:14 that's only your view but that doenst mean its the only truth 13:48:16 and _must_ be taken with a grain of salt 13:48:22 not worshipped as gospel 13:49:13 thin: I wouldn't be so certain. not imposed on millions of people from above of course 13:49:32 thin: http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/faq.html#libandleft 13:50:01 please read. and please notice that left-wing anarchist fought against government in spanish civil war as one entity. 13:51:18 AFK 13:51:42 * kc5tja is taking the quiz, just for fun. :) 13:53:28 take this one too: http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html 13:53:32 that one is much smaller 13:53:38 * XeF4 wants to argue but has some awful ssh lag :\ 13:54:01 i haven't even been in a mood to argue at all today 13:54:12 if it looked like i was, i'm sorry :P 13:54:42 i no longer care about educating people.. it's too long and painful 13:54:54 "military servic should be voluntary".. depends who I'm supposed to fight for.. 13:55:15 i don't mean to sound arrogant, i could have wrong beliefs and i acknowledge that 13:55:31 the military service does not tell that 13:55:36 OK, just a sec though. 13:55:41 those who do the service dont know either 13:55:45 because it can not be known 13:56:09 mur - I don't quite follow you. What do 'those who do the service' not know? 13:56:14 it can be against other own people (civil war) or against beloved neighbour country or against worst enemy 13:56:31 cleverdra, military service is not always optional, mind you 13:56:51 mur - OK. What don't they know? 13:57:08 mur: how old are you? 13:58:04 whom they might have to fight for / against 13:58:25 army is for the parliament of the country 13:58:29 * kc5tja is apparently a left libertarian. 13:58:52 In fact, I'm diametrically opposite of Bush and his troupe. 13:59:01 But, let's see what thin's test reveals... 13:59:03 mur - no, enlisting in the US Military doesn't give you the option of selecting what wars you'll fight. 13:59:06 that's why they put is so fine "everyone fights for legitime leader, despite religion or political view" 13:59:28 cleverdra, yes that's what i'm saying. you can't know who you will have to fight against. 14:00:05 kc5tja: the politicalcompass.org quiz has some very misleading/biased questions, and a number of the economic questions revealed a complete ignorance of economics by the quiz makers 14:00:26 one of the questions was an 'A or B?' where A and B were actually the same darn thing 14:00:31 in civil war the army members fight for the parliament despite do are they for or against it. of course you may jump to the another side if you wish and have luck.. 14:00:45 i really think that economics should be taught in highschool 14:00:47 'End taxes. Pay for services with user fees.' is funny. 14:00:56 thin - erm, it usually is. 14:01:04 thin - well, I assumed so. 14:01:19 cleverdra: where? in canada, microeconomics and macroeconomics are taught at university level.. 14:01:35 Whoa...I find thin's test to be overwhelmingly biased. 14:01:36 thin, yes, 1 + 1 and 1 - (-1) do give the same answer but they are still done differently 14:01:36 cleverdra: i think economics/microeconomics should be taught at grade 10 level 14:01:44 thin - in the US. 14:02:05 kc5tja: it seems biased but only because it's polemical 14:02:05 But in either case, I'm libertarian, leaning to the left. 14:02:06 thin, but what if it is not optimal but 1 + x and 1 - x .. if it doesnt succeed it will not produce similar effects 14:02:09 thin: haha, come.. in california, you need econ to graduate highschool. ;) 14:02:20 what kind of econ is this? 14:02:24 do you learn about supply and demand? 14:02:26 thin: A non-biased test will ask about opposing viewpoints. There were no questions to oppose other questions on the test. 14:02:31 It's biased. Certifyably. 14:02:46 kc5tja, what numbers? :) 14:02:48 do you learn that price ceilings and floors lead to worse problems? 14:03:04 do you learn about consumer surplus and supplier surplus and how taxes create a deadweight loss? 14:03:19 thin: we learned about CDs, and I wrote a paper on pork bellies. ;> 14:03:33 actually, the paper was so I could get a D in the class, and graduate. 14:03:43 doesn't sound like an economics class 14:03:55 mur: Personal self-government score is 100%, economic self-government score is 80% (for thin's test). For your test, it is -4.38 left/right, and -3.23 authoritarian/liberal. 14:04:04 the stockmarket/treasury market is a really small portion of understanding economics 14:04:05 libertarian even. 14:04:19 a74: home economics class != economics class 14:04:29 thin, ugh 14:05:00 life is often compromise 14:05:11 thin: I'm pulling your leg. 14:05:18 mur: i used to be like you.. now i know compromise is evil :P 14:05:25 it was as much an econ class, as my calc class was one. 14:05:35 thin: Life is compromise. 14:05:38 thin, ugh 14:05:39 thin: Hence life is evil. 14:05:46 i know that compromise is not optimal 14:05:50 Kill yourself, today! Saves valuable time and effort! Cost effective, too! 14:05:54 but it's hard to get other but compromise 14:05:58 unless you are dictator 14:05:58 And it's good for the environment! 14:05:59 :) 14:06:21 woudl be only if billions did 14:06:31 kc5tja: well if i can't find a place free of coercion, then that means i either a) compromise b) fight (and die real quick) 14:06:39 which is why i'm a bit depressed :P 14:06:40 or hundred million in western countries (for a start) 14:06:56 mur: Hey hey hey . . . that's below the belt. ;D 14:07:11 i can other tricks too :) 14:07:15 mur: As long as I'm not one of those hundred million, you can do what you want. :D 14:07:22 well 14:07:30 or if people in western countries behaved themselves.. 14:07:31 there is thing called "family planning" 14:07:41 * thin is likely to compromise for awhile, but recognizes he'll be immoral for doing so, and hence evil, and hence he'll start wearing a trenchcoat and dying his hair black, etc etc 14:07:45 ofcourse it's only working efectively in china >:P 14:08:03 thin: Neo. You Are The One, Neo. :) 14:08:19 mur: yeah, it's great, the government is going around with a gun telling people to not have babies or else they'll kill their babies 14:08:22 mur: And only because China is a command economy. 14:08:31 command & conquer! 14:08:33 thin, it doenst go like that exactly 14:08:36 but wait! 14:08:42 HAH! I'd be like, "OK!" Free sex with no obligations! :D 14:08:43 what is there to conquer after you finish commanding?! 14:08:45 many people on country side do have many children too 14:09:21 I'm telling you -- Soylent Green is the only solution. 14:09:29 thin, well were you ready to overthrow political system and fall into anarchy if first you had to move to nigeria? 14:09:39 (and give away all your money) 14:09:46 so to live as poor in anarchy 14:10:09 kc5tja, yes, i know that, i was doing "soylent green" gui but it died :/ 14:10:15 soylent green is people! 14:10:25 would be ideal meal 14:10:28 thin: the problem w/ not compromising, is that a compromise totally depends on the perspective, and with infinite perspective, you have infinite compromise.. 14:10:28 how is soylent green the only solution? 14:10:28 recycling humans 14:10:49 it's like nailing down 'perfection' 14:11:38 if humans were done into soylent green, i'd eat that 14:12:00 that includes implication that soylent green is absolutely healthy and good ingredient 14:12:23 the problem w/ soylent green, is the whole BSE-style disease vector 14:12:26 looked a bit bland in the film 14:12:35 if soylent green woudl give all energy etc. we needed, why not, it woudl make cooking easier too :o) 14:12:41 I'm cool without uping my intake of prions. 14:13:04 a7r, not really. BSE was brain disease derrived from cows and before that cows got it from sheep 14:13:19 if brains and nerve system coudlbe ignored then everythign woudl be okay 14:13:47 and it was because the farms were saving up little in work. if the brains etc. hadn't been used BSE wouldn't have existed at all 14:13:50 yeah, but I didn't say BSE, I said BSE-style.. all it would take is for something to infect the muscles, and we'd be fucked. 14:14:02 or any other tissue. 14:14:13 there is that risk in everything 14:14:31 yeah, but it's more risky when you're cycling a species back into itself. 14:14:34 you never know if there is tomorrow supervirus that can kill in 15 minutes and spreads like plague 14:14:39 kind of like inbreeding. 14:14:45 perhaps 14:15:01 but it doenst mean vegetables etc coudlnt be used also 14:16:08 what is the film's name where there is soylent green? 14:16:32 hey this is cool 14:16:32 http://anti-ads.detritus.net/mission.html 14:16:40 soylent green 14:17:13 anti ads, there were one banner which said "[gray area] <- scratch here you may have won new monitor" :) 14:17:13 --- join: XeF4_ (~XeF4@plasmid26.gprs.suomen2g.fi) joined #forth 14:17:20 there, local irc at last.. 14:17:29 gprs :) laptop? :) 14:17:39 laptop 14:17:57 ship's laptop, ship's mobile phone 14:18:36 re: prions, if it wasn't so important to have _cheap_ meat, there wouldn't be need to feed cows with rendered feed in the first place 14:19:56 bbl 14:20:25 XeF4 are you on ship now or home or at work? 14:20:40 talking about soylent green is just stupid 14:20:48 there's no need for it anyways 14:20:51 and why is that? 14:20:58 i'm much more concerned about getting offplanet 14:21:01 ah people will die anyways in hunger 14:21:08 fine, let them die 14:21:20 then they will finally overtake western culture 14:21:25 like barbarians did in rome 14:21:26 I am on the ship now and should be working at this moment since the safety inspetors come tomorrow morning.. 14:22:16 cruising? 14:22:50 no, in turun satama 14:23:07 do you know what woudl have nice effect on internet? 14:23:53 if someone provided free satellite internet connections.. just buy equivment and you can freely go to net. (this does not mean commecial usage now but genuinely and statically free) 14:23:57 it's really annoying when people are negative towards "western culture" and they don't even realize they've got pretty shitty cultures too 14:24:17 no, if we all used slow, slow connections 14:24:34 then it would become apparent what information is important and what is best left unsent 14:24:54 thin, there is not just one western culture 14:25:26 satellites are expensive to build and launch and maintain 14:25:30 XeF4 you coudl always put up new satellites. i mean now theoretical very fast and free connections 14:25:33 i know 14:25:34 and one satellite hasn't much capacity 14:25:36 but this is only theory 14:26:08 and satellite latency is quite high 14:27:59 thin: but I like this planet 14:28:27 i like my rights more 14:28:46 your rights to what, exactly? 14:29:09 my right to keep the results of my thought and production 14:29:22 among other things 14:29:25 i.e. freedom 14:29:28 i.e. no coercion 14:29:49 don't worry, you don't have to leave the planet, i'm sure quite a few thousand others would be willing to 14:30:29 thin: but problems arise when you use my resources for your production 14:31:28 what resources? 14:31:41 i wouldn't use your resources for my production 14:32:02 i suspect you are thinknig of the environment 14:32:18 I don't know, maybe you used a pile of iron ore in my back yard to build a kettle 14:32:20 or somesuch 14:32:22 we have a Common Grounds problem with the environment 14:32:26 xef4: no! i would never do that 14:32:38 i would pay you for it if you were willing to sell it to me 14:32:54 it is irrational to steal 14:33:16 it only hurts others and hurts myself in the long run 14:34:05 well you cant avoid those consequences 14:34:11 many people just think of themselves 14:34:16 look at the stock markets :) 14:34:46 thin: who arbitrates what is "mine" and what is common and what is yours? 14:37:45 well the future woudl show the practises in anarchy, like in anything. millions people will probably find many different sollutions.. 14:37:54 thin: and where do I put the wastes from my production? 14:38:13 you pay for someone to take it 14:38:19 well in right-wing you coudl dump were ever you wish to :P 14:38:31 thin: and if I can't be bothered and dump it wherever I please? 14:38:44 what's mine and yours is probably difficult in such govt 14:40:31 heh. funny the right column pictures http://www.sniggle.net/guerilla.php 14:41:27 now that I think of it.. my neighbour is an arsehole who used my resources without asking, I'll dump my waste on his garden 14:41:53 ownership of land is much more simplified in space. in general, staking land and WORKING on the land gives ownership of the land to the person 14:42:08 basically, say you land on an asteroid and start converting it to a space ship 14:42:22 if someone comes along and declares its his land, he's stealing your labor too.. 14:43:09 it comes down to labor really 14:43:21 http://www.sniggle.net/barbie.php funny idea :D 14:43:28 a government can't arbitrarily say that you own a piece of land.. 14:43:34 a government has no true authority.. 14:43:44 er, no mystical authority 14:43:48 govt is people 14:43:59 but it has become more estabilishment 14:44:04 it has the authority to imprison you for disobedience 14:44:08 but practically it's people 14:44:40 and it has authority from people who believe they are better off for letting it imprison you 14:44:45 a group of people, aka society, doesn't automatically give it the right to coerce other people in the "name of society" 14:45:04 1 person stealing from you is immoral.. 1000 people stealing from you.. still immoral.. 14:45:10 millions of people stealing from you 14:45:13 no difference 14:45:38 yes funny that 300 million steal from 6 billion 14:45:39 isn't it? 14:46:09 i don't condone u.s's foreign policy 14:46:23 i am aware of many atrocities, such as the funding of terrorists to install puppet governments, etc 14:46:40 thin: what has that to do with anything? 14:46:50 xef4: i'm talking to mur 14:47:04 thin - no, you aren't. 14:47:31 however i'm not saying that u.s is the only evil government, really, all governments to my knowledge are pretty evil 14:47:53 so don't get all defensive 14:48:17 * thin is confident mur's government is quite sucky & full of coercion :P 14:48:32 you dont see world very openly 14:48:42 you have very narrow viewpoint.. sadl 14:48:43 y 14:48:58 jeez, you make me laugh 14:49:07 everyone thinks they're right 14:49:07 thin: you seem to equate anarchism with "grab as much as you can and hold onto it like hell" 14:49:19 thin: Of course I'm right. Don't you know? ;) 14:49:32 xef4: ugh, that is not what i said.. you misunderstood me 14:49:36 xef4 - when did he make that assertion? 14:49:41 exactly 14:49:47 oh kc5tja and cleverdra woke up too :) 14:50:05 * kc5tja got tired of this conversation and went back to doing something more productive and useful for society -- finishing FS/Forth. 14:50:15 screw for society 14:50:17 for yourself! :P 14:50:24 Every now and again, I take a break. 14:50:36 selfishness doenst' advance society that fast 14:50:36 clev: he didn't say that as a single assertion, if he did I'dn't have said "seem to" 14:50:53 it has a problem to advancing if it becomes protectionism 14:50:58 mur - sure it does. Everyone wants certain needs met. 14:51:02 thin: Yes, for myself primarily. But you have to admit, I'm being a *LOT* more open about FS/Forth than Chuck is about ColorForth. :) 14:51:08 When I'm done, I'll be distributing my work. :) 14:51:28 cleverdra, if you are not selfish that does not mean that you dont get your needs met 14:51:48 hey kc5tja, I'm looking for a Forth to run off of a compact flash card, on a 486 as a router... as close to the hardware as possible. is FS/Forth going to be capable of sitting there? 14:51:57 xef4 - OK. You "seem to" be pulling a popular attack on anarchism in general out of your memory and using it against someone spouting what you construe as anarchaic without considering the relation between your attack and your target. 14:52:00 a7r: Yes. 14:52:13 a7r: We may need to tailor it specifically to your needs. 14:52:16 kc5tja: yeah but maybe you're more selfish than chuck moore ;) 14:52:43 a7r: FS/Forth will run butt-naked (my term for w/out OS) when I'm through -- 32-bit protected mode, no protections. MAYBE the occasional interrupt. 14:52:52 xef4 - in other words, you "seem to" be interesting more in attacking than responding. Does that make sense? 14:53:04 kc5tja: werd. I'm using one of these http://www.soekris.com/net4501.htm 14:53:18 cleverdra: no (response to follow) 14:53:21 a7r: Dude, I heard a LOT about those. From what I understand, they rock. 14:53:47 kc5tja: yeah, I really like them. I've got OBSD on it right now 14:53:49 a7r: A friend of mine, MysticOne (also ham), recommended we use those for ATM ARNI nodes for the ham radio internet. 14:54:06 xef4: land ownership is a bit of a tricky issue, but basically I think it is about 2 things: claim AND labour. a person who picks up a tree branch and converts it to a walking stick owns it by his labour.. there is no other way to "own" something 14:54:18 a7r: Also, I'm looking into using them, combined with FS/Forth actually, for custom-made web servers for my clients. 14:54:19 i can't claim i own the moon 14:54:35 hell, i can't claim i own all the moon if i land on it and only use a few square miles 14:54:53 You can't claim to own land at all. 14:55:00 Or air. 14:55:01 etc. 14:55:02 thin: Pathetic fool. I own the solar system. You owe me taxes, bub... ;D 14:55:18 heheh, show me the labor, bud :P 14:55:21 kc5tja: awesome. I'm down for any coding you need done, I've got my networking stack coming together on pforth, but I'd really like to start talking directly to the ethernet controllers, and I figure I might as well jump ship to a native forth running hardware. 14:55:31 did you build the solars system? 14:55:53 clever: the trouble is that wherever there are large numbers of people living toghter, there are certain jobs that simply have to be done. paying someone to do it is hardly anarchic (who manages the treasury) 14:55:58 a7r: Do those Seokris boxen come with (or has available for it) complete developer documentation? 14:56:07 thin: Of course. :D 14:56:14 xef4: what treasury? 14:56:22 kc5tja: I think all the datasheets for all the components are freely available. 14:56:36 Neat. 14:56:46 almost all the pieces of the unit are off the shelf 14:56:58 ... actually, I think all the pieces are. 14:57:10 except some of the custom serial BIOS work that they did, but that's just software. 14:57:22 thin: the one that prints money I use to pay you for hauling off my vats of NaF I no longer need 14:57:25 a7r: Well, my concern comes from things like the Ethernet controllers, PCI bus interface, etc. 14:57:32 xef4 - that's why all previous successful large anarchistic societies were based on the powerful mores of rewarding accomplishment with sex. 14:57:46 * cleverdra is non-serious. 14:58:06 how fun 14:58:16 robert made a good point. there is no such thing as ownership.. there is only labor. to steal labor in any form is inethical. someone who farms a plot of land has the right to the fruits of the land 14:58:18 but you always need 2 person to do rewarding accomplishment :P 14:58:31 kc5tja: nod. I've found datasheets on the ethernet.. and I think all PCI is handled built into the AMD Elan integrated microprocessor. 14:58:43 thin, yes but what about animals? 14:58:46 xef4: paper money is handled privately, backed by gold, it does not require any government backing 14:58:47 and their rights? 14:58:47 a7r: So it's PC chipset, basically. 14:58:57 thin - what if that person is able to farm that plot of land because a powerful organization has been keeping ruthless barbarians from rolling over it (and the farmer)? 14:59:01 a7r: Hopefully well documented. 14:59:29 kc5tja: yeah, it runs unmodified OBSD, NBSD, FBSD, Linux, and DOS 14:59:43 cleverdra: there's no difference between a government or a ruthless gang of barbarians. a rational man must fight both :) 15:00:05 a7r: Oh, very cool. :) 15:00:13 a7r: That'd be easier to support then. 15:00:16 kc5tja: http://www.amd.com/epd/processors/4.32bitcont/14.lan5xxfam/24.lansc520/ <- here's the chip 15:00:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:00:27 this is neat, two conversations at once :P 15:00:27 a7r: What'd probably change is the IDE interface and the console I/O code. 15:00:39 hi tathi :) 15:00:45 hi thin 15:00:49 re tathi 15:01:12 kc5tja: the specific chip the 4501 uses is the SC520-133AC, but it just looks like packaging, and temperature differences. 15:01:27 thin - there's a fairly obvious difference in one wanting to kill you and one demanding tribute to maintain a defense against the other -- especially when the tribute-demander was created by *your* ancestors to protect you from said barbarians. 15:01:32 hey kc5tja 15:01:42 thin: perhaps, but I would rather see such things handled by small enough communities that such jobs simply get done 15:02:02 by people who recognize they need to be done and are capable of doing so 15:02:28 thin - if my parents join with other parents when I'm little to create a small militia funded by the member families, and I grow up to farm instead of fight, is that militia no different from a group of barbiarns when it (the militia) continues to ask me for support? 15:02:30 a7r: Cool. I will not concern myself with that for the moment though. Not until I finish my own 32-bit port of the Forth environment. 15:02:33 cleverdra: i'd rather have the choice of paying for a protector or not. i'd rather pay via bill, not tax 15:03:04 thin - and suicide is also illegal in the US. 15:03:49 cleverdra: the idae of obligations to society is mysticism and so is any obligation to ancestors 15:04:10 hmm...I bet thin started this conversation... :P 15:05:01 about the militia, well you should have the option of hiring another militia if you wanted to, or to have no militia, etc 15:05:04 thin: so what if it's "mysticism" as long as it works 15:05:07 and it wouldn't be tax-based 15:05:23 what works? 15:05:36 thin: problems arise when every second family has their own militia 15:05:51 --- quit: a7r (Remote closed the connection) 15:05:57 look, actually, this is a minarchism issue 15:05:59 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 15:06:07 damn network 15:06:07 Problems also arise simply because the militia, once formed, has a viewpoint of its own that you don't seem to acknoledge. 15:06:11 i haven't decided if i'm minarchist or anarcho-capitalist 15:06:25 but with minarchism, basically it's a minimal government that protects your rights 15:06:28 kc5tja: anyhow, I think it'd be really slick to get a router running Forth 15:06:35 and protects you from foreign invaders.. 15:06:40 thin: imnsho, worrying about who to have kill each other is a good way to start on the wrong foot 15:06:45 a government like that is OK 15:06:49 kc5tja: it'd be really great to try out new routing technology, and for security work. 15:07:11 but a government that gets involved with the economy, or starts legislating stuff like suicide, then that is wrong 15:07:26 Person A has devoted most of his life to defending a region, a people, from ruthless enemies. Things are dire on the front and he needs more swords -- oh no, the swordmaker has decided to abstain from making swords for the 'group of barbarians' that serves as his guardian. 15:07:49 thin - can you even see A's view? 15:07:59 cleverdra: did you see what i just typed? 15:08:16 * mur forgot to tell 15:08:24 i stopped arguing for the day 15:08:25 thin: (re: what works?) if "mysticism" keeps people looking after their neighbour's good, then way to go mysticism 15:08:31 i ahven't read the channel since last message 15:08:40 atm i support a minimal government that defends people but does not interfere with the economy or the people's rights 15:09:07 thin: how many people would this minimal government govern? 15:09:11 thin - I think it's wrong for A to say "oh, hey, well you have rights and are a free person. I'll just go and get slaughtered, and then you'll get slaughtered, and then my family will get slaughtered, and then, basically, everything I've spent my life on will be destroyed. No, I'm not going to put a knife to your damned neck and demand your labor. No, no." 15:09:13 xef4: the real result of mysticism is loss of progress, even if that isn't obvious at first 15:09:33 thin: define progress 15:09:34 This is, of course, a wildly imaginary situation. 15:09:38 the minimal government is only minimal because it does not interfere with people's rights, it only exists to protect the rights 15:09:55 xef4: any sort of stability, status quo, etc is anti-progress 15:10:39 thin: that leaves me no closer to knowing what progress _is_ 15:10:51 heh. wake me up when it's over ;) 15:10:56 * tathi goes back to working on his forth 15:13:50 look at the savages in the jungle, they believe in some form of mysticism. the result is, they believe that nature is dominated by causeless effects, that a god or demon is responsible for the quality of their harvest, etc 15:14:41 and they barely improve their condition from generation to generation 15:14:48 thin: are they wrong? 15:15:17 we pray to the god of physics. 15:15:23 depends on if you believe that man is just an animal like all other animals, or is a man, someone capable of improving their condition, etc 15:15:45 i'm sure some people are content to live basic lives, like a regular animal 15:16:04 others are more interested in commanding nature, in discovering the rules it operates by and taking advantage of the rules 15:16:08 a7r: Official notice: you are exhibiting signs of defunct and reprehensible views of religion and science. Please cease and desist, immediately. 15:16:20 * cleverdra is extremely non-serious. 15:16:31 heheh 15:16:35 cleverdra: haha, I'm just not sure there's a difference in the end. ;> 15:16:52 thin: otoh, we are not doing much to improve our condition either 15:17:00 well we did 15:17:04 now we're sort of stagnating 15:17:08 change it in every conceivable direction sure, but I'm not convinced much is improving 15:17:24 a7r - categorizations and distinctions work better when applied nearer the beginning. 15:17:45 cleverdra: I'm not understanding your speak. 15:18:11 thin: is it mysticism to respect something that has worked well for quite a long time and leave it alone until there is cause to change it? 15:18:28 xef4 - some people like not having to work all day just to eat, and then in their few moments of leisure time still lack for nutrients. 15:18:32 we did make a HUGE jump in improving our condition, and that was during the industrial revolution, but more importantly, that was during when america was freest :) 15:18:50 thin: who were those jumps for? 15:19:07 xef4: no, i wouldn't consider that mysticism 15:19:17 sigh. Second notice: the channel has descended into self-satisfying nonsense. 15:19:21 xef4: but that doesn't mean suspending judgement 15:19:26 clever: most of the people in that bind are working for industrial society, actually 15:19:35 cleverdra: you can't spew 10 dollar words at me, and then not explain. ;) 15:19:47 xef4 - 8 hours is somewhat less than 'all day', but OK. 15:20:09 clev: there are people working a lot longer than 8hrs/day 15:20:58 and most of the people working 8hrs/day have a fair bit of surplus money too 15:21:20 cultivating enough food to feed yourself+family hardly takes all day year round 15:21:26 cleverdra: about the barbarian defending a region, well if the smith doesn't make more swords for the guy, then the smith loses his protection.. it would be immoral to force the smith to make swords, even if its "for his good" 15:21:53 a7r - I was playing on your 'not sure there's a difference in the end'. Obviously there are differences between Science and Religion (just as there are differences between Politics and Computer Science); I don't think that working them both through a meat-grinder of analogies and metaphors and then saying "Look! They're the same in the end!" is useful. 15:22:14 oh, whatever then. 15:22:21 I'm talking about the end result. 15:22:24 --- part: thin left #forth 15:22:27 i.e. what they get you. 15:22:49 What they get you? Computer Science and blue laws. 15:22:50 and how they impact your life, and existence. 15:23:06 forget it, you and I are thinking on different scales. 15:23:53 no, you're thinking on a certain dimension where they are similar and you are refusing to specify that dimension -- or even, apparently, to realize that you *are* just looking at them a certain way. 15:24:21 okay, when you're done coming up with my answers, let me know. 15:24:30 I don't follow you, a7r. 15:25:15 I stated the dimension earlier on, i.e. the final impact to your life and existence. 15:25:30 a7r - that's hardly clear enough. 15:25:55 I don't think there's any final difference in your life, whether you believe in physics, or gods, as forces that control the world around you. 15:26:26 physics definitely seems a more precise and accurate way of obtaining results from actions. 15:27:13 take something basic, like fertilizing plants 15:27:15 You can create complex scientific theories that lay out all the rules of physics and then describe their causes in theistic terms -- but then somebody would come along and note that the rules don't depend on the descriptions. 15:28:01 yeah, but you're assuming physics is the lowest level, and that going with dieties is a layer on top of that. 15:28:17 what if physics is just a description of what the 'gods' do? 15:28:35 I'm just saying when the day is done, I'm not sure it matters. 15:29:14 a7r - I remember arguing with a girl about this, back in HS. She said that gravity could be just somebody in another universe pulling objects down. I said, wonderful, and they always pull them down at 9.8m/s2 on Earth. 15:29:23 yeah. 15:29:34 it'd be a moot point. 15:30:02 which I think ties pretty much into what I'm saying.. 15:30:09 Occam's razor is always good for that sort of thing. 15:30:16 in the end of the day, if you believe in physics, or gods, or whatever, it doesn't really matter. 15:30:26 I believe God has let us belive in laws of physics for long he doesn't dare to start behaving erratically now. 15:30:36 XeF4_: haha, good call 15:30:42 s/long/so long/ 15:35:26 regardless.. someone write me a PDF reader in colorForth. :> 15:35:47 chuck's version? no way. 15:36:11 Enth/Flux, anything 15:39:04 I might be able to find motivation to write a postscript viewer 15:39:14 if that would be of any use 15:39:26 that'd be pretty slick 15:41:15 'twould be nice if someone would pay for the development of such things 15:49:19 --- join: XeF4__ (~XeF4@plasmid66.gprs.suomen2g.fi) joined #forth 15:49:28 ack 15:51:22 Enth/Flux is practically a traditional forth with nifty formatting chars 16:11:04 Hehe 16:11:23 Well, ColorForth is basically a stripped down version of cmForth. :) 16:11:37 Originally, it didn't even have preparsed source. 16:12:40 --- quit: XeF4_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:13:15 I wouldn't want to use a colorforth without preparsed source 16:22:35 Why? 16:22:42 Editing it is really no different. 16:23:36 gn arguers :) 16:24:47 because manipulating it programmatically is different 16:29:45 --- quit: mur (""Greed has shitty end" --finnish proverb") 16:31:14 I do not see how that is relavent. 16:32:04 --- join: fridge (~matt@dsl-203-33-160-107.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 16:32:27 kc5: because I like to write code that writes code 16:33:08 OK 16:33:16 I still don't see any problem. 16:34:07 Either way, you have to pass it through the compiler to generate code or somehow interpret it. 16:36:43 true, but having arbitrary-length strings to worry about makes delete/insert operations a pain 16:39:58 I can hear you thinking "but individual functions are short enough that regenerating the whole thing oughtn't take more than a few hundred cycles" 16:42:51 which would be true except that I(too) abuse the compiler by using XTs to represent eg, layout tiles 16:44:49 I personally wouldn't use xt's for layout tiles (I'm assuming you're talking about things like PC board tools or whatever). :) 16:44:55 I'd use a look-up table for those. 16:45:07 But, actually, I'm trying to figure out why my compiler is producing incorrect code. :( :( :( 16:45:28 [COMPILE] foo uses the same subsystem as just normal 'foo', and yet, it's compiled address is 100% wrong. 16:45:38 I cannot figure out why, and I'm about ready to throw the fucking computer out the fucking window. 16:47:40 --- join: thin (~thin@stu01161.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 16:47:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 16:48:08 throw out a cheaper computer.. :P 16:49:09 and now for something completely different :-) 16:49:29 looking at the humane environment pages and very pleased to see that Raskin is 1) still alive 2) still actively developing 16:52:41 Heh 16:52:52 thin: I no longer have to. I fixed it. 16:54:22 FS/Forth now has a fully functional (as far as I can tell) colon compiler. 16:54:36 Constructs like : ABC def ; : GHI jhk ; now work too. 16:59:13 kc5 - I don't think I understand what construct that example is supposed to illustrate. Automatic forward compilation? 17:04:38 * thin cheers wildly! 17:04:45 No. 17:04:50 Two definitions on a single line. 17:05:02 cleverdra: do you think you have a forth article in you, for the forth site? ;) 17:05:24 Now I'm having critical failures in the code that places names in the dictionary. 17:05:35 This is FUCKING BULLSHIT. I *KNOW* this code worked FLAWLESSLY earlier today. 17:05:46 ewww 17:05:54 Yet another example of one word, one control flow path, at least 10 tests. 17:05:54 kc5 - oh, that's odd. Your Forth cares about lines, then? 17:06:03 cleverdra: no, that's the point. 17:06:13 kc5 - your forth *used* to care? 17:06:52 cleverdra: More accurately, it cares about lines when sucking data from console (obviously, because the buffer isn't infinite). But within any one input buffer, multiple definitions are supposed to be legal. 17:07:10 well, err, naturally. 17:09:57 Before, for whatever reason, as soon as the first ';' was encountered and executed, it would complain about trying to read past the end of the input buffer. 17:10:19 I couldn't track down the bug, so I just rewrote it all from scratch: parser, half of the interpreter, and the compiler. 17:10:36 OK, name placement works. 17:10:49 Not at all sure why the memory dump tool was giving erroneous results. 17:11:03 But as soon as I'm done with FS/Forth's core environment, it's going away anyway. 17:11:24 Now, to finish another small bug... 17:13:09 thin: you finding lots of people to write articles for the forth site? ;) 17:14:09 hmm...must be the time of day to have troubles with your forth environment...I'm having annoying bugs as well... 17:14:22 tathi: heh, not really 17:18:41 heisenbugs make the world go 'round. 17:19:56 No, it seems like every Forth envrionment I've ever written has always been so thoroughly riddled with bugs as to make them useless. 17:19:57 * kc5tja sighs 17:20:13 every FUCKING one. 17:20:22 you do unit-testing with fs/forth right? 17:20:30 Never mind the fact that each word, in isolation, works WYUBV(&!@#{409v UW35[2BP9V AQ FUCKING PERFECDTLY. 17:20:36 thin: how can I? 17:20:41 nevermind 17:20:43 How do you unit-test the environment in which unit tests will run? 17:20:50 heh 17:20:59 * kc5tja sighs 17:21:03 :( 17:21:24 Here is a beautiful example of what I'm talking about. 17:21:33 * cleverdra wonders if unit-tests encourage analytical thinking at the expense of globalism. 17:21:36 : FOO 'H EMIT 'E EMIT 'L DUP EMIT EMIT 'O EMIT CR ; 17:21:40 FOO HELLO 17:21:52 So we know that the compiler is able to find FOO in the dictionary. 17:21:53 BUT... 17:22:03 name, FOO FindForthWord . 0 17:22:06 ?!? HUH!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?! 17:22:09 What do you mean ZERO?! 17:22:14 How the *FUCK* did the compiler find it? 17:22:22 Especially since the compiler USES!!! FindForthWord!! 17:22:37 and name, ? 17:22:39 It's stupid shit like this that I just can't get a handle on. 17:22:49 name, just places a word at HERE in the dictionary. 17:22:57 name, FOO TYPE FOO 17:23:12 It's what : uses to assemble a word header. 17:23:18 Which is also known to work. 17:23:26 :( 17:23:32 name, ( "name" -- ca n ) ? 17:23:39 cleverdra: Yes 17:23:55 forgive me for asking but does FindForthWord use c-addr u or address of counted string? 17:24:08 There are no counted strings in FS/Forth anywhere. 17:24:13 All strings are in caddr u format. 17:24:26 kc5 - how do you store strings in memory? 17:24:40 cleverdra: pointer/length pair, contiguously. 17:25:18 * cleverdra shrugs. 17:25:39 so either FindForthWord is broken or . is broken.. 17:25:44 . works 17:25:47 -1 . -1 17:25:50 0 . 0 17:25:57 FindForthWord works -- the compiler relies on it. 17:26:03 : BAR FOO ; 17:26:06 BAR HELLO 17:26:26 findforthword works on bar and not foo? 17:26:30 kc5 - I'd say that FindForthWord fairly obviously does not work. 17:26:44 cleverdra: Then explain why it works in the compiler? 17:27:22 Are you saying my compiler doesn't use FindForthWord? I'll be happy to post source for the whole compiler block if you wish. 17:27:45 kc5 - maybe the compiler is using a different word, maybe the bug in FindForthWord does not extend into the environment that the compiler uses it in. I don't know, but the assertion that FindForthWord works does not hold with observed reality. 17:28:17 I must be talking to a wall. 17:28:36 ] uses FindForthWord to locate words in the FORTH dictionary. 17:28:44 The very same FindForthWord that I'm invoking via the command-line. 17:28:49 kc5: does stuff around HERE (or whereveryou keep the terminal buffer) get treated differently when compiling vs interpreting? 17:29:04 XeF4: It shouldn't -- that's what I'm trying to investigate now. 17:29:09 kc5 - fine, they're the same word. It's clear that something is different in the environment that causes FindForthWord to fail. 17:29:38 cleverdra: Well . . . yes. I think I'm pretty well aware of that. :) 17:29:57 The problem is finding that difference. 17:31:10 are there any cases of FindForthWord working, interactively? 17:31:23 None 17:31:31 Actually, scratch that. 17:31:59 Before I wrote the second implementation of the compiler. 17:33:13 btw, how many screens is the compiler implemented in/ 17:33:36 Compiler works, interpretter works, it's only interactive that it fails. 17:34:17 Currently, only two. 17:34:33 It might grow to three a bit later on though. 17:34:41 Especially as I add compiler words for S" and such. 17:34:43 what's the distinction between interactive and interpreter? 17:35:01 2 2 * . 4 <-- interpreter 17:35:24 name, * FindForthWord . <-- interactive 17:37:55 eh? 17:38:03 so interpreting a parsing word is interactive or have I missed something? 17:40:37 * kc5tja sighs 17:40:44 FindForthWord is not a parsing word. 17:40:48 name, is -- that word works. 17:41:19 The interpreter uses FindForthWord to locate words to EXECUTE. 17:41:33 The compiler uses FindForthWord to locate words to COMPILE. 17:41:44 If I call FindForthWord at the prompt, it fails. 17:41:59 Forget. 17:41:59 ok 17:42:08 I'm sorry I even brought the thing up. 17:42:44 well i'll say its a darn weird bug 17:42:59 the interpreter uses it yet it fails at the prompt.. bloody weird 17:43:35 kc5tja: I'm with you on the whole block thing.. the more I use them w/ Enth/Flux, the more I like them. 17:43:59 thin: not really, I've had similar bugs and they came back to thrashing memory around HERE every time 17:44:56 XeF4__: Memory dumps show no trashing of memory around HERE. 17:45:12 The vocabulary pointers are correct, the chain that hangs off it is correct, etc. 17:45:24 It just "doesn't work." 17:45:31 And it should, and that's what is pissing me off. 17:45:38 I have absolutely *zero* indication as to why it won't work. 17:45:51 * kc5tja nods to a7r 17:48:39 rest? 17:50:21 rest what? 17:52:04 your mind until it can see the cause of the problem? 17:53:51 Well, I sort of am. :) 17:54:06 * kc5tja is looking at enth-related websites currently. 18:08:38 thin: sillysilly question, but are non-English articles of any use on the #forth site? 18:10:06 uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i'm thinking not really.. 18:10:36 so I figured. 18:10:44 i'd like the site to be fairly consistent & the articles to be readable by the editors.. 18:11:19 what do you think kc5tja? 18:11:27 I would say that they're OK, as long as there existed an English translation for them. 18:13:14 xef4__: how about that? 18:13:24 reasonable 18:13:29 er, wrong client 18:14:27 heh 18:14:36 what's with the two clients if both work? :P 18:15:04 one is lagged a second or two via ssh, the other is of questionable stability 18:15:10 ah 18:15:11 --- quit: sifbot (Remote closed the connection) 18:20:13 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 18:20:13 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 18:20:13 --- quit: sifbot (Remote closed the connection) 18:25:15 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 18:25:15 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 18:29:35 sifbot: have you considered the uselessness of yourself when you cannot even store colon definitions? 18:29:37 XeF4__: Word not found: have 18:30:55 * fridge chuckles 18:31:09 heh. I keep telling him he should either make it a worthwhile forth or get rid of it. 18:34:11 tathi: i thought about kickbanning sifbot, but some ppl would whine about it :P 18:34:57 thin: I thought about saying more about it but I thought it was yours =D 18:35:17 yes, out with it for crying out loud 18:35:24 heheh 18:36:19 tathi: could you tell him that we don't care for sifbot and that I 18:36:21 o 18:36:34 I'd like him to get rid of it :P 18:36:38 sure 18:37:15 whose original quality product is sifbot anyhow? 18:38:07 herkamire made it 18:38:12 safe interpreted forth bot 18:38:34 --- quit: kc5tja (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:38:34 --- quit: cleverdra (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:38:34 --- quit: paxl (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:38:34 --- quit: ianni (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 18:38:37 probably only has like 10 words in its vocabulary.. 18:38:51 I guess that's what makes it safe 18:39:16 i wonder about a forth bot that is more useful.. would a dictionary be maintained for each person? 18:39:21 or somethign else? 18:39:26 yeah, I keep thinking about writing something 18:39:35 maybe a person can be like: forthbot: reset 18:39:59 and clear up all the garbage coded in it by others.. 18:40:15 onetom connected gforth here, but he had gforth as root, so that was a security hole 18:40:47 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 18:40:47 --- join: cleverdra (nailuj@ACC6186F.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 18:40:47 --- join: paxl (paxl@modemcable110.168-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 18:40:47 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 18:40:47 --- mode: asimov.freenode.net set +o kc5tja 18:41:03 hmm...no response 18:41:15 ? 18:41:34 ssh & write 18:41:53 thin: common dictionary which requires special priveleges to write to + user dictionaries 18:42:03 XeF4__: yeah, that's what I was thinking 18:44:40 plus fine-grained memory access controls 18:44:41 it'd be cool if people could code features into the bot, stuff that other bots do 18:45:06 (not hard since speed hardly matters for an irc bot) 18:45:09 the bot also should do logging.. 18:45:32 well, that's not an important feature 18:45:50 but eventually i'd like to replace clog with a forth bot :P 18:46:23 sifbot: 1e 2e f+ f. 18:46:23 sifbot: 1 2 + . 18:46:25 kc5tja: Word not found: 1e 18:46:25 --- quit: kc5tja ("[x]chat") 18:47:29 sifbot: 1 2 + . 18:47:31 thin: 3 18:47:51 sifbot: mycode me for write 18:47:52 ianni: Word not found: mycode 18:48:45 wouldn't it be "my code for me write" ? 18:49:13 or perhaps "my for code me write 18:49:21 * XeF4__ just had an idealet 18:49:30 since code and write are verbs 18:49:53 XeF4__: do tell :) 18:50:35 ha. My forth can save ELF files now. How useless is that? ;) 18:50:41 with most filler loops and such, calculating the possible range of accessed memory addresses after n iterations is not difficult 18:51:29 thin - 'code' isn't a verb in your use of it 18:51:32 I have facilities for dynamic code generation anyway, so fine-grained memory protection without hardware support should be implementable at a decent speed in most common cases 18:53:18 hmm 18:53:55 requires stack effect prediction but that is on the (extra-long-term) todo list 18:56:46 i.e. predicting the set of all possible values isn't really necessary since for eg, a line-drawing routine we only need a guarantee that all writes fall somewhere in the framebuffer which is easy to verify for a simple additive loop 18:56:59 right 18:58:06 --- quit: thin ("bye") 18:58:12 not something I'd want to code, I think. 18:59:05 *nod* 'tis the sort of thing I avoid actually coding unless there is no way to do without it 18:59:21 :) 18:59:30 interesting possibility though 18:59:53 but knowing it "should be possible" allows me to procrastinate on safety issues 19:00:06 ( :-) ) 19:00:29 I can see you have your priorities in the proper order ;) 19:02:10 well, I've had enough coding for one night 19:02:16 --- quit: tathi ("laters") 19:51:01 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 19:51:02 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 19:51:10 You know, it'd sure help if I could stay connected to IRC. 20:00:13 oh? :P 20:00:40 I kept getting netsplit. 20:00:57 Eventually, I just gave up and got some food. 20:01:22 FS/Forth's compiler is fixed, BTW. 20:01:34 It now works completely as expected. 20:01:38 Such a wonderful thing. :-) 20:01:47 your forth? 20:01:52 Yup. 20:01:54 paltform? 20:01:56 platform 20:01:59 Currently, DOS. 20:02:02 ah 20:02:06 I need to get bochs working 20:02:16 I want a DOS environment to learn some stuff about hardware 20:02:19 Because it offered a fine balance between an OS-hosted environment and the freedom to do hardware-level access. 20:02:24 i have some texts which speak with x86 references 20:02:42 and DEBUG.EXE etc 20:02:46 hehe 20:02:47 :) 20:02:59 What platform do you currently have? 20:07:41 --- quit: XeF4__ ("pois") 21:02:40 Good grief -- I can't believe someone on c.l.f wants to propose a standard name for the phrase EXECUTE EXIT. This phrase happens so little as to be not worth it. 21:03:43 Oh well 21:05:13 propose the name EXECUTE EXIT as the standard name for EXECUTE EXIT 21:05:17 damn, I need to take a picture of my desk 21:07:02 fridge: That's what someone already proposed. :) 21:07:06 a7r: Why's that? 21:09:02 Hmm... 21:09:11 kc5tja: I just got the A/D part of this AVR microcontroller working, and have it hooked up to a 30 PSI manifold pressure sensor 21:09:21 I've got a pretty great ratsnest going 21:09:22 * kc5tja should build a little AM transmitter for the 1750m band, so I can listen to my computer via my ham radio. 21:09:35 a7r: Hehehe :) 21:09:49 kc5tja: yeah, I should have a boost controller working by Friday. :) 21:10:20 Oh, interesting -- dynamic boost while the car is running? 21:10:20 :) 21:10:35 I always knew that Forth was the rotary of computer languages, but this puts a whole new meaning to the concept. :) 21:11:33 yeah, it's going to rock 21:11:53 beats spending 500 USD on an off-the-shelf unit 21:12:01 Neat. :) 21:12:14 I wish I were more mechanically inclined. :/ 21:12:36 I tried to replace the antenna in my '7 and I somehow blew the 80A main fuse. :( 21:12:55 Also damaged the sound system in it. I'll have to get that replaced some day, when I can afford it. 21:13:31 yeah, that shit can be rough 21:13:59 I think, somehow, the subwoofer shorted out. 21:14:12 The CD player won't play CDs -- it just spits them out after putting one in. 21:14:27 The radio still works (with the antenna hooked up of course :) ). I just don't have a subwoofer. 21:14:59 nod. 21:15:21 the previous owner of my 7 did some idiotic shit with the wiring harness for the speakers 21:15:30 so I need to rerun that at some point. 21:15:33 * kc5tja nods 21:15:37 Mine is mostly stock. 21:15:43 Just the addition of a subwoofer, really. 21:15:50 I'm feeling pretty happy w/ working on it though, the car is really straight forward. 21:16:07 the only things I'm not sure about doing yet are: transmission rebuilds, turbo rebuilds, and engine rebuilds 21:16:36 Well, I can do simple stuff -- fluid changes, maybe some belt tensionings, etc. But that's about it, really. 21:16:40 Wire harnesses, etc. 21:16:42 yeah 21:16:53 it's just a lot easier to work on than my Volvo 21:16:58 That car is not nearly as straight forward as I think it should be. 21:17:02 not as many computers 21:17:04 ? 21:17:11 no efi etc 21:17:26 fridge: 2nd generation RX-7s and later are all EFI. 21:17:31 Lots of computer support in them. 21:17:43 It's just that Mazda builds simple cars, and they still do. 21:18:27 yeah 21:18:43 Although, the 3rd generation RX-7 is wholeheartedly not a simple car to work on mechanically. Not with a twin-sequential turbocharger packed up against the 13B with only half an inch to spare, and 79 vacuum hoses to control the damn thing. :) 21:18:52 yeah 21:18:58 that car gave rotaries a bad name 21:19:16 Not really. 21:19:24 The oil crisis of 70s gave it a bad name. 21:19:46 in the circles I run, the 3rd gen was the killer 21:19:52 (especially since Wankels have to burn oil to run properly.) 21:20:03 the issue is reliability 21:20:09 and the 3rd-gen was a piece of shit 21:20:17 * kc5tja disagrees. 21:20:20 smallest radiator of all the RX-7's, hottest running engine bay 21:20:31 most prone to wastegate failure 21:20:31 Well, stock, yes. 21:20:43 There are after-market options you can get to clear that stuff up though. 21:20:46 yeah, but that's what I'm saying.. they got a bad name from the stock configuration. 21:21:05 I talk to people now, and they're like ``Haha! well you'll have to replace your engine in 60k miles!'' 21:21:08 * kc5tja is glad Mazda went back to the basics for the RX-8. 21:21:16 I prefer working on my bikes 21:21:28 and the 3rd-gens stock, did blow engines that quickly. 21:21:36 which is just like :| 21:21:40 a7r: I love it when people tell me that when I tell them I have a rotary. 21:21:50 kc5tja: yeah 21:22:02 I heard things like that 21:22:02 it's like morons who hate diesel engines 21:22:09 a7r: My response is, "Really? Don't tell my engine that -- 260,000 in my first generation, and 160,000 in my 2nd generation, all original engines." 21:22:29 kc5tja: yeah, seriously.. my RX-7 had 132k before the engine died. 21:22:36 and it hadn't been maintained properly by the previous owner. 21:23:02 * kc5tja dislikes Diesel engines for one, and ONLY one, reason: particulates. 21:23:09 They put out MASSIVE quantities of soot. 21:23:11 yeah, no doubt 21:23:22 Otherwise, they're damn awesome engines, even if they do boing. :) 21:23:37 I don't like them, but some people hate them because of something they heard years ago about them being unreliable. 21:24:03 So unreliable our entire commercial infrastructure and industry relies on them daily? :) 21:24:11 haha, seriously 21:24:19 I think marine Diesels are a good source of that kind of reputation though. They're always breaking down. 21:24:49 * kc5tja firmly feels that, due to the harsh marine environment, gas turbines really should be used instead of Diesels. 21:25:30 At the very least, steam turbines. 21:26:03 Actually, a steam turbine would rock, because there's absolutely zero chance salt water could get into the inner workings of the turbine during operation. 21:28:50 Oh well. I'll be afk for a bit; I need to work on ways to implement block I/O in FS/Forth. 21:28:55 I'm not sure how exactly I want to do it. 21:28:55 werd. 21:29:03 I could support one block file, and have all blocks go to that file. 21:29:29 Or, I could assign ranges of blocks to different files, a la PygmyForth (e.g., blocks 0 to 100 is SOURCE.BLK, 1000-1056 is GAMES.BLK, etc.) 22:23:15 --- join: fred123456789 (~fmackmil@lc0450.zianet.com) joined #forth 22:23:34 hi 22:25:34 --- part: fred123456789 left #forth 22:31:29 --- join: Fractal (kter@i.either.got.mad.cow.from.alberta.beef.or.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 22:37:37 --- join: XeF4_ (~XeF4@guanine98.gprs.suomen2g.fi) joined #forth 22:39:52 kc5: steam turbines _are_ used on some large tankers 22:40:45 * XeF4_ points out that a 100MW diesel is unpractical enough that not even industry would use it 22:42:05 er, and nuclear-powered vessels of course 22:42:36 * kc5tja nods 22:43:21 XeF4_: FS/Forth now has a working compiler, completely. 22:43:28 nice 22:43:32 The problem was a loose nut behind the keyboard. ;) 22:43:46 what was the bug? 22:43:56 I had *completely* forgotten that I'd changed name, to produce ( u caddr ) instead of ( caddr u ) to eliminate a SWAP in another word. 22:44:10 ur 22:44:11 f 22:44:41 So name, FOO FindForthWord wouldn't work, but name, FOO SWAP FindForthWord would. 22:45:10 of course. 22:45:41 btw, how does one store such a large quantity of gas for a gas turbine 22:45:45 ? 22:46:31 The fuel is liquid. 22:46:51 Just like gasoline. Usually thicker though; most jet fuel mixtures are more like diesel in composition than gasoline. 22:46:53 yes, but the tanks have to take quite some pressure 22:47:30 Yes, but not as much as you might think. There are fuel pumps between the engine and the tank that acts pretty much as a check valve. 22:47:49 At least for airplane engines, and as far as I know/read. 22:48:10 ah, so eg paraffin heated to boiling point and used in a gas turbine? 22:48:16 If the fuel pump pops, then the fuel will back-flush and combust. 22:48:59 XeF4_: That's certainly a possibility. :) Though, I'd rather use peanut oil. I'm not sure how much energy content is in paraffin though. 22:49:01 *nod* diesel is quite safe in that regard 22:49:37 Interestingly enough, there are gas turbines that are external combustion (though, not used for airplane engines or the like). 22:49:49 * kc5tja would love to build a simple external combustion turbine engine some day. 22:49:52 kc5: I'm thinking of marine engines 22:50:27 * kc5tja nods 22:51:17 as it happens, I'm sitting on a ship with a rather problematic marine diesel.. 22:51:25 Ahh. :/ 22:51:37 XeF4_: You in the military? Or is this a civilian/contractor job? 22:51:49 volunteer work of sorts 22:53:24 civilian of course since I'm not a Finnish citizen :-\ 22:53:52 Interesting. What kind of work do you do? 22:54:03 (no doubt computer related I assume, considering your Internet connectivity) 22:55:15 not computer related; electrical maintenance/random other maintenance/deck hand when at sea 22:57:09 kc5: fair trade sailing ship =) (s/v Estelle) 22:58:51 Interesting. 22:59:18 * kc5tja isn't sure he'd be able to do that sort of work. 22:59:19 :) 22:59:31 I suppose you've not heard of her, and the webpages are only in Finnish, but in the off chance you read Finnish, www.estelle.fi 22:59:32 why not? 22:59:33 * kc5tja tends to get motion sickness quite easily. 22:59:48 * kc5tja only knows English. 23:03:38 oddly enough, the 'technical' data is only in English, http://www.estelle.fi/tektied.php 23:03:56 which has some errors 23:15:08 http://www.ynet.com.au/sean/forum.html --- very interesting: a web forum written in GForth. :) 23:21:44 yay, the masses of IRCing forthers have talked about it for years and finally someone did it =) 23:22:45 * kc5tja nods 23:22:50 * kc5tja wants to code up a Wiki with Forth. 23:22:53 * kc5tja loves Wikis. 23:23:06 I've just been too distracted/lazy/whatever to do so. :) 23:23:25 * XeF4_ seldom uses wikis but loves the concept 23:24:52 also, my Forth networking projects tend to end up requiring a dedicated machine because I haven't the patience to deal with Unix sockets 23:27:02 Heheh :) 23:27:50 I think, for FS/Forth, I'll place all the blocks into a single file. 23:28:09 To import/export blocks to other files, special utilities can be written (either inside or outside of Forth). 23:28:36 This keeps things simple internally, and better approximates a hardware-level implementation. 23:30:04 *nod* 23:30:16 A think a block file of 1440 blocks ought to be enough for anyone. :-) 23:30:57 except for really large datasets 23:31:51 Well, you can always make the block file larger or smaller by calling the host OS services appropriately. 23:32:25 Can GRUB boot from floppy, or is it strictly harddrive? 23:32:41 it can boot from floppy 23:32:59 Cool. :) 23:33:48 I'll use GRUB for FS/Forth Native's boot loader then. 23:34:09 have you looked at the size of GRUB? 23:34:17 It's relatively huge. 23:34:35 ok, just making sure. 23:34:51 I was going to use one disk to boot from, and the another disk to use for block storage. 23:35:29 I suppose I could attempt to boot directly off of floppy, and it's relatively easy enough to do this. 23:36:16 However, supporting booting off of harddrive becomes absolutely impractical. 23:37:14 Unless you dedicate a whole harddrive to the environment, that is. 23:37:32 * kc5tja would like to support partitions, but the partition table format is not standardized. 23:38:23 nearly everyone uses ms style partition tables on x86machines 23:38:33 hey, gotta go. 23:38:49 I'm uber-thirsty, and I'm heading out to the store or restaraunt to get something. 23:38:52 later 23:39:17 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:55:38 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 23:55:49 hi ! 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.06.08