00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.06.04 00:00:01 --- log: started forth/03.06.04 00:00:01 : 67-6un 32-6un 32-6un 6un 6un 6un ; 00:00:15 : 32-6un 8-6un 8-6un 8-6un 8-6un ; 00:00:23 : 8-6un 6un 6un 6un 6un 6un 6un 6un 6un ; 00:00:36 --- join: wtail ([R6ZlNn1bB@panix1.panix.com) joined #forth 00:00:37 Your way is more compact though. 00:01:47 your way gave me an idea: 00:02:01 o, no, bad idea ! 00:02:13 hmm backtracking interesting 00:02:14 coz i can call my rep w/ any number 00:02:16 * bwb reading right now 00:02:31 and yours has _fixed_ number of runs 00:03:05 Serg_Penguin: Correct. But in every case above, you're running rep with a fixed constant in front of it. :) 00:03:32 yes :) 00:03:40 i thought : 00:03:51 Basically, my code is equivalent to loop unrolling. 00:04:27 [ ' line. 132 reps ] - and it unrolls it yor way _automagically_ based on 2^ or 3^ 00:06:17 but it bloats proggie ;) 00:06:30 i coded for min size, like good old demoscene 00:07:35 Well, that's why I used a spanning tree. 00:08:03 While there is more code, I don't have to maintain a loop counter either, which helps keep the stack clean. 00:09:05 hmm.. i meant what REPS does what you did, but w/ unnamed code chunks in a word currently being compiled 00:09:26 but this REPS has to be complex 00:20:26 * kc5tja nods 00:27:43 There -- posted a simple news post to the portal. 00:29:48 kc5tja: you done any PCI development before? 00:29:57 Not at the register level, no. 00:30:03 nod. 00:30:17 I can't see how it can be very hard though. 00:30:24 i'd like to start talking to my ethernet controller, but I have some steps that need to happen before I get there. 00:30:30 PCI SIG seems to have made PCI hardware configuration a painless, almost automatic process. 00:30:39 yeah, that's what I've heard 00:31:28 I'll have to chat with the PCI bus directly when I port FS/Forth to bare hardware though. :) 00:32:42 shit, ~500 bucks for the PCI-SIG hardcopy specs. 00:33:00 * a7r goes hunting on the net. 00:34:13 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-99-187-95.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 00:35:07 Let me know if you find anything. 00:35:14 I'm always interested in hardware-related docs like that. 00:38:16 kc5tja: Here's a goldmine: http://members.datafast.net.au/dft0802/specs.htm 00:40:36 Bookmarked. Thanks. :) 00:41:27 have a good night, I'm hitting the sack. 00:41:34 * a7r is away: sleep 00:41:49 I think I'm going to do the same, actually. 00:42:03 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:47:06 --- join: T`|Heli (total@GALILEO.ACT.CS.CMU.EDU) joined #forth 00:47:20 anyone here have experience with microphone amplifier circuits ? 00:52:35 --- part: bwb left #forth 01:01:08 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:01:59 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 01:05:22 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 01:13:20 --- part: T`|Heli left #forth 01:37:48 --- join: Fractal (qvehstyt@2001:470:1f00:1214:0:1:1337:d00d) joined #forth 02:17:41 --- join: yo|da (~yo|da@pD954506F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:21:22 hello 02:23:47 how is the portal development advancing 02:24:32 portal? 02:24:56 we'd love to showcase it on a new #Forth portal site, currently in development! 02:27:55 bbl 02:27:58 --- part: yo|da left #forth 02:45:51 what happened to the old one? 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03:52:51 mostly mail worms ;) 03:53:02 TheBat rulez ! 03:53:22 w/ MS Outlook, i would be eaten by worms, w/ all my 20 users 03:54:16 you could have pets 03:54:30 just put them into small calculator or laptop 03:54:35 and new tamagotchi are ready 03:54:42 "grow your own worm!" 03:55:39 bad joke ! really, most worms are stored in mail base butt not activated 03:56:17 that's probably microsoft next marketing thing 03:56:42 coz TheBat _never_ runs anything in letters (you have to save attach to file if you wanna run, and then run by Explorer) 03:56:44 did you know that microsoft has the most uncontent employees in the western 03:56:54 uncontent ? 03:56:59 back orifice was DONE for microsoft internal network 03:57:07 yes since most are "loaned" workers 03:57:17 they dont get what the internal core get 03:57:33 lousy payment, temporal work (some are permanently temporar workers) 03:57:50 they weared badges 03:57:58 like fascist state 03:58:02 people marked :P 03:58:27 barrel of $h!t on commercial soft :((( 03:59:36 * mur has released public domain programs :) 04:00:00 PD is not so good too, coz it may be patanted by others 04:00:19 ugh 04:00:32 well only some countries give software patents 04:01:18 there is a catch in PD 04:01:32 if the program is good, it will be known of a lot of people 04:01:48 i would like a lawer bureau, where author can release his soft as GPL w/ all written legalese 4 small fee, and then distribute 4 small fee under GPL, ... 04:01:51 if it is not good, then no one will patent or such abuse it either 04:02:30 ... _untill lawers' expenses + some income are covered_, then it becomes as free as usual GPL 04:02:41 * mur woudl like better that the living (food shelter etc) were taken care and you coudl just do what you want (program, arts etc) 04:02:56 ugh 04:03:06 ... if the work went to good cause 04:03:14 small fee = few $ a copy 04:03:29 that's a bit like shareware 04:03:48 even though sw is the lowest software distribution method of all, ihmo :/ 04:04:26 --- 04:05:05 something must be done agains patent abuse 04:06:12 it's called ethic 04:06:30 * mur thinks infrastucture is very important in changing the world 04:06:44 such as large information flow to all people 04:06:53 (not controlled by firms) 04:07:08 fair trade and competition 04:07:11 openess of world 04:07:32 if information flowed, many people woudl not use such software and the firm woudl get bad reputation 04:48:03 Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over' 04:48:06 hah :) 04:57:48 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 05:13:46 --- join: fridge (~matt@dsl-203-33-160-70.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 05:39:05 --- join: crc (~crc@AC892066.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 05:39:26 --- quit: crc (Client Quit) 05:47:37 --- quit: fridge (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:01:31 --- quit: mur ("hurry hurry. library is closed very soon. :/") 06:18:03 --- join: fridge (~matt@dsl-203-33-164-95.NSW.netspace.net.au) joined #forth 06:23:20 re 06:37:04 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 06:37:31 --- quit: wtail ("...") 06:40:15 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:32:29 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4e8e.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 07:39:31 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 08:21:31 --- quit: yo|da ("reboot") 08:23:26 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD954506F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:24:09 elo # 08:24:36 grias di 08:26:00 servus Speuler 08:42:53 Speuler: about the 40 dedicated server, do you have an url please? 08:44:09 need one w/ ras though 08:54:50 www.hetzner.de 08:56:45 http://www.hetzner.de/price_performance.htm 09:05:37 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 09:05:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 09:06:09 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 09:08:49 Speuler: thx 09:09:29 bonjour kc5tja 09:09:38 Howdy 09:11:04 good 09:11:06 sup guys 09:11:55 "a new #Forth portal site, currently in development!" 09:12:15 kc5tja: and you? 09:20:20 the new #forth site, what is planned? where hosted? 09:20:55 You can see what we currently have at http://forth.bespin.org 09:22:04 We are currently interested in publishing fresh and high-quality articles, editorials, etc. about or relating to Forth. 09:27:13 --- join: jstahuman (dan@pcp053555pcs.brlngt01.nj.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:27:26 kc5tja: who's we? 09:34:19 --- nick: deluxe -> registration_req 09:35:24 aha 16 bytes maximum 09:36:09 --- Received a CTCP USERINFO from kc5tja 09:36:54 ?? 09:36:56 kc5tja: can i answer you a question? 09:37:13 myself and thin 09:37:17 Sure 09:39:38 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD954506F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:46:44 --- quit: deluxe ("bb") 10:02:09 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:02:56 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4b90.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 10:04:14 * kc5tja just wrote a damn handy utility for Pygmy Forth -- INDEX. 10:04:23 Got the idea from a website documenting MVP-Forth. 10:05:01 It walks through a range of blocks, printing the block number and the first line of text in that block. 10:05:02 .. i block c/l type cr ... ? 10:05:58 : INDEX ( f t -- ) CR SWAP BEGIN 2DUP U>= WHILE .index 1+ REPEAT 2DROP ; 10:06:17 : .index DUP 5 U.R SPACE DUP BLOCK 64 TYPE CR ; 10:06:22 no do .. loop ? 10:06:38 I haven't used, nor needed, DO/LOOP or FOR/NEXT in years and years. 10:07:03 : index 1+ swap do i .index loop ; 10:07:37 not needed, ok. but saves comparison and incrementing by hand 10:07:53 I prefer to do incrementing by hand. 10:08:13 It gives me more information about what the word is actually doing. 10:09:44 hmm. but "yes" also hides what it actually emits, and you still use it :) 10:09:46 but CR 10:10:15 Because the intent is still clear from context. 10:10:58 having a lines twice as long as necessary leads to more readable source ? 10:11:07 DO/LOOP doesn't tell me anything about what it's actually doing. 10:11:14 Sometimes, yes. 10:11:32 Let me guess, you tend to use single-letter variable names all over the place? 10:11:33 but WHILE doesn't tell you neither 10:11:39 nope 10:11:50 WHILE from < to, DO .... increment from REPEAT 10:11:54 It tells me a great deal. 10:12:12 It's closer to how I think about algorithms. 10:12:16 it doesn't tell you that it compiles a conditional branch 10:12:24 you could compile the branch by hand 10:12:52 You're taking things to such an extreme conclusion that you are thoroughly missing the point. 10:12:57 Context. 10:12:58 Context. 10:12:58 Context. 10:13:11 I have no context when I look at a DO/LOOP construct. 10:13:21 So I use a BEGIN/WHILE/REPEAT or BEGIN/UNTIL construct. 10:13:24 i'd call it "extreme" do work aorund DO which has been exisiting for ages 10:13:34 It tells me in language much closer to English, what the program is trying to do. 10:13:59 Fortran has existed for ages. Do I have to use that too? 10:14:19 Fuck, why don't I just break out my handy IBM System 36? 10:14:40 while exits since ages too, and you still use it 10:14:46 Actually, it hasn't. 10:14:47 exists 10:14:57 WHILE is relatively recent development in the evolution of computer languages. 10:15:02 But I digress. 10:15:08 You're still missing the point. 10:15:14 was introduced into forth about the time do was 10:15:24 Just because I take one layer of abstraction away doesn't mean I have to take ***ALL*** layers away. 10:15:38 You're just being absurd now. 10:18:08 no. i'd be if i would mention that "2dup" is not very english 10:19:42 Neither is DO/LOOP. 10:19:47 I feel mine is closer. 10:19:51 I'm sorry you disagree. 10:22:40 --- join: thin (~thin@stu04161.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 10:22:40 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 10:22:49 re thin 10:22:54 re kc5tja 10:24:11 thin: FS/Forth interpretted its first commands from the OK> prompt yesterday. :) 10:24:45 I sure do wish I could support headerless words though in the target compiler. 5052 bytes is just too big for what I have compiled so far. :) 10:26:45 yay 10:26:51 what were the commands? :P 10:26:59 : champagne

 ;
10:27:03  : break <> ;
10:27:08  break champagne
10:27:10  !
10:27:11  :P
10:27:46  36 BASE ! ABE DECIMAL . BINARY 110011 HEX . DECIMAL -56 . CR 'Y EMIT 'A EMIT 'Y EMIT CR BYE
10:28:02  I also exercised its arithmetic functionality as well.
10:28:19  And U. as well.
10:28:37  ABE ?
10:28:47  oh
10:28:49  nevermind
10:28:56  :)
10:28:59  jeez
10:29:03  i keep asking stupid questions
10:29:12  and i'm increasingly lazy with my typing
10:29:13  hmmmm
10:29:25  thin: Watch out -- you'll turn into another Chuck Moore.
10:29:46  i dunno, chuck moore is more productive than me
10:30:02  I've still got another bug that I'm trying to track down, though: if I type 1 2 + then hit ENTER, the next . I type doesn't print the results.
10:30:15  do you have .s ?
10:30:20  Something in the interpretter loop is thrashing the stack.
10:30:22  Not yet.
10:32:36  I'm depressed because I've pretty much adopted the libertarian/objectivist/rational/etc philosophy, yet there is no escaping coercion in this world afaict
10:33:35  also, the education system is fraudulent, it barely teaches anything yet we're expected to pay 100x its worth and take 10x as long to learn the stuff all for a piece of paper for employability reasons..
10:33:36  bah
10:34:15  people don't know how bad the education system is because they have nothing to compare it to..  they don't know of anything better.  same with the people who think windows is the greatest os
10:34:31  of course the OSes aren't completely monopolized so we have some choices..
10:34:37  thats right
10:34:44  but education is pretty much monopolized, so we never see the possibilities
10:35:03  maybe i should go to some other country with a privatized education system..
10:35:14  but this doesnt mean we should give up tryin 2 affect the educational system
10:35:15  but i doubt there's any good countries with good privatized education, so bleh!
10:35:33  lets build our own schools! ;)
10:35:54  onetom: i plan to someday
10:36:00  thin: hungary is not bad... ;)
10:36:04  really depends on the direction the world goes
10:36:15  i'm really thinking that the best thing to do is get offplanet
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10:36:35  onetom: i'll come to hungary if there are good universities :P
10:37:01  thin: there r ONLY great varsities ;p
10:37:07  here
10:38:02  in the city where i live, ~1/10th of the population is a foreign student
10:38:26  thin: I'm looking for schools outside of the US right now
10:38:35  I'm thinking maybe new zealand, or australia
10:38:44  new zealand is nice
10:39:55  well, new zealand seems to have a less interventionist government, but i'm not sure
10:40:22  i would move to a stable country with a non-interventionist government in the blink of an eye..
10:40:28  but i don't know of any in this world..
10:40:32  hence i want to get offplanet heh
10:41:13  thin: the answer is you need to get a lot of money, and move to a place where you can define the rules.
10:41:44  YESH!  Bug fixed.  :)
10:41:59  kc5tja: that was fast
10:42:17  Hehe :)
10:42:22  kc5tja: have you gotten it all set up so that it's easy to find the bugs?
10:42:23  good debugging skills.  :)
10:42:55  well most bugs are pretty easy to find, but there always seem to be a few that are almost impossible to find
10:42:59  No, but I make gratuitous use of . statements everywhere.
10:43:21  In this case, I traced the execution using a set of DUP . statements that enabled me to see where things went astray.
10:43:53  It turns out that ParseWord (my replacement for 32 WORD in traditional Forths) was executing an extra DROP when there was no more words to parse.
10:44:39  I have to admit though, I really am quite unhappy with Pygmy Forth's compile speeds on this laptop.  :)
10:44:55  heh, smiling when you say that :P
10:45:00  My environment isn't going to be much faster, I don't think.  But I'm going to profile it and see whether it's I/O-bound or CPU-bound.
10:45:17  Future versions of FS/Forth should hopefully be faster.
10:45:20  how fast is the laptop?
10:45:30  33MHz, 80486.
10:45:34  and are you running windows or just plain dos?
10:45:39  DOS
10:45:46  and it compiles slowly???
10:45:55  Well, not slowly.
10:45:57  But not fast either.
10:46:05  486 is pretty fast to me :P
10:46:15  well a 133mhz pentium is fast
10:46:24  The combined source for the target compiler plus target assembler plus target image is around 120K.
10:46:25  but that's twice as fast as a 486 maybe ?
10:46:35  thin: 4x faster actually.
10:46:45  ok
10:46:49  8x if you count the superscalar operation.
10:47:19  yeah
10:47:24  But that's assuming properly paired instructions, etc, which mine definitely doesn't put out, and I know Pygmy *patently* doesn't take advantage of.
10:47:26  but the clock rate is a bit of a myth
10:47:40  altho i suppose you can compare intel chips using clockrate..
10:47:40  It is, and it isn't.
10:47:49  Actually, you can't.
10:48:06  Because each chip has a different ideal instruction ordering for maximum performance.
10:48:38  That's why Intel can get away with charging $700+ for a product called vTune, which optimizes software *SPECIFICALLY* for a *SINGLE* processor implementation.
10:49:02  I'm sure AMD has similar software available.
10:49:22  heh
10:49:32  But still, clock-speed is a good rough indicator.
10:49:46  At the worst, an x86 platform will execute one instruction every one to three cycles.
10:50:17  Thus, the 486 is basically a base-line processor for performance comparisons.  (Or, at least, it should be, since it's the first x86 to execute instructions in single cycles.)
10:51:08  The idea being, compare a 486DX-33 to a Pentium-class CPU at 33MHz.  Once you have this factor determined, scale by clock rate accordingly (e.g., by a factor of Fclk/33MHz).
10:51:25  yeah
10:54:31  So now my next step is to implement the compiler, which should actually be substantially easier than the interpretter was.
10:57:57  The one thing it doesn't allow right now, and I'm not sure I'm going to support it in the future, is the ability to define multi-line :-definitions at the OK> prompt.
10:58:24  eh? it doesn't wrap?
11:03:12  It wraps just fine.
11:03:18  But I'm talking about typing this:
11:03:20  : foo
11:03:25   1 2 3 + *
11:03:32   ." The answer is "
11:03:33   .
11:03:34  ;
11:03:39  oh, hitting enter in between..
11:03:48  You won't be able to do that.  In FS/Forth, it all has to sit on one line.
11:04:09  (that is, with the way it's currently written; I may change it in the future if it becomes too inconvenient)
11:04:27  But it's still better than ColorForth -- at least you CAN type : .... ; at the command-line and have it work.  :)
11:07:09  ugh, i'm bored & tired (w/ my brain all fuzzy) which is the least unproductive state :/
11:07:26  You mean the least productive state . . . ;)
11:07:35  I know what you mean, though.  I was there only a few days ago.
11:07:37  lol
11:07:39  doh
11:07:43  see! proof! :P
11:07:50  "lease unproductive" lol!!
11:08:08  oh, another mistake.. i'm degenerating :P
11:08:14  heheh :)
11:08:35  Now this is an album I haven't listened to in a while . . .  Rush: Chronicles.
11:25:03  what's your favorite font?
11:25:16  In what context?
11:25:22  for reading stuff
11:25:38  i think monotype fonts are better, not sure tho..
11:26:08  I like a well-designed Times Roman-like font.
11:26:18  I prefer monotype only for program listings.
11:26:35  For regular documentation, I like a rich, but yet not extravagent, serif font.
11:27:46  Such as what you'd find in your average text book.  The output of TeX is an example -- I *love* its fonts.
11:28:04  hmm
11:28:10  did you ever take a look at treepad?
11:28:22  Never heard of it.
11:28:28 * thin is trying to figure out which font looks best with treepad..
11:28:47  but when i switch around fonts my eyes become really critical to all of them, they all look weird if i look at a whole bunch..
11:28:48  heh
11:30:14  This is why a program's font choice should be generally consistent.
11:32:06 * kc5tja is having some difficulty in figuring out whether I want to use blocks or files for FS/Forth for DOS...
11:32:39  And for other FS/Forth environments, for that matter.
11:37:33  well i thought you liked blocks
11:37:39  I do
11:37:46  and that it would work good with exokernels, etc..
11:37:59  But they aren't very good at handling variable length data, especially when you don't know the length ahead of time.
11:38:53  if you go with files, will you have to implement a filesystem down the road?
11:38:59  or you'll just stay inside other OSes
11:39:17  If FS/Forth is hosted, I'll just use the native file-based APIs.
11:39:23  If it's native, I'll implement a filesystem.
11:40:00  what about implementing a filesystem over blocks?
11:40:02  or vice versa
11:40:27  I'd use blocks in the native version to write the filesystem with.
11:41:19  a block-like filesystem would give you the variable length data handling & still be block-like..
11:41:29  but that's more work i guess
11:41:32  and YAGNI
11:41:34  Blocks and files are mutually exclusive concepts.
11:42:01  I suppose it's possible to define a file as a sequence of 1024-byte blocks, but that'd be rather wasteful.
11:42:08  Especially for files that are rather small in size.
11:42:20  yeah
11:43:25  I can use an exokernel-style disk access to protect blocks on the disk from "illegal" access (of course, any arbitrary Forth program is free to use BLOCK to access disk blocks).
11:44:18  s/BLOCK/SECTOR/
11:44:21  what are the advantages of blocks?
11:44:42  1.  Blocks can map directly to individual disk sectors.
11:45:23  2.  Block buffers maintain a "dirty" flag bit (which is set by UPDATE); thus, the block system knows to write-back the dirty blocks when they're evicted from RAM.
11:45:52  3.  Therefore, blocks can be used to come very close to a persistent operating system.
11:45:53  blocks can map directly to disk sectors, but they don't have to map successively to each sector, they could be all over the place, out of order
11:47:16  Yes, but as soon as you do that, you're already half-way to implementing a filesystem anyway.
11:47:51  yeah, but is that a bad thing?
11:48:15  ok, so blocks make it easier to have a persistent OS
11:48:19  Not necessarily, but it's not as simple to implement, by a long-shot.
11:48:46  what happens when you have a block-based persistent OS?   what do you do with "files" ?
11:48:48  Blocks more or less is Forth's answer to paging in most other operating systems.  They even follow the same protocol, except that they're software managed instead of hardware managed.
11:48:56  don't you implement a filesystem on top of blocks?
11:49:08  You're confusing blocks and sectors.
11:49:10  except for the 1024 byte disadvantage..  but there's ways around that
11:49:16  no i'm not
11:49:20  i'm not talking about sectors
11:49:28  In the context of this discussion, I think we should agree that a block is a contiguous chunk of 1024 bytes of memory, while a sector is a hardware-defined size.
11:49:35  yes
11:49:56  All filesystems are ultimately built on top of sectors.
11:50:04  suppose you make your forth os, and it's block-based & it's persistent..
11:50:27 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
11:50:30  so what do you do when you want to handle "files" ?
11:50:37  within that os
11:51:19  When you seek to a position in a file and read something, the operating system first needs to locate the file's meta-data on disk, use that meta-data to resolve the sector that contains the offset you're reading from, read in that block, THEN transfer data to the program.
11:51:38  If the read extends beyond the first sector, it must repeat this process for each sector in the file.
11:51:57  Forth blocks are direct-mapped and direct-access; hence, no translation occurs at the BLOCK-level.
11:53:26  a filesytem could be implemented over blocks which are implemented over sectors.   normally a filesystem is implemented directly over sectors.  (but a filesystem implemented on blocks which are implemented on sectors is pretty inefficient)
11:53:29  Modern filesystems employ what are called "extents," which encodes whole ranges of disk sectors as a single meta-data entry for a file, if at all possible.
11:54:19  No, there'd be no inefficiency of using blocks versus sectors.
11:54:25  In fact, it'd probably be more efficient.
11:54:55  AmigaDOS worked by doing full-track reads and writes -- it was easily as fast as any PC floppy disk controller reading and writing a single sector.
11:55:02 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
11:55:13  The block layer provides much needed caching to boot.
11:55:22  So there'd be a net-win to the whole system.
11:55:35  The thing is, whether you use blocks or sectors is immaterial -- filesystems aren't trivial.  Period. 
11:55:48  kc5tja: I read your article on the #forth site
11:56:02  tathi: Cool.
11:56:06  very nice
11:56:34  ewww.. forums aren't linked, i didn't notice that
11:56:42  Serg was all happy last night about FS/Forth -- he wanted me to give a miniature "fireside chat" like Chuck gives, where I discuss the philosophy of the decisions that went into making FS/Forth.
11:56:44  thin: :)
11:56:55  yeah, I saw that.
11:57:21  hmm, that's a bit of a problem..
11:57:24  BTW, you have a couple of spelling and grammatical mistakes in your article.
11:57:37  tathi: Where?
11:57:49  interpreter has an extra 't' in two places
11:58:18  hang on a sec, I wrote this down somewhere
11:59:36 * kc5tja isn't sure he can give a 'fireside chat' like Chuck gives though.  There isn't really much philosophy going into my work.
11:59:54  FS/Forth is also "20 years old" as far as Chuck is concerned, so . . . :)
12:00:13  hey, whatever works.
12:00:16  I suppose my intent to use files instead of blocks would constitute an interesting implementation detail though. :D
12:01:01  i'm still quite confused about the whole blocks vs files vs filesystem issue and i'm half-blind
12:01:06  in my current state
12:01:21  Internet.
12:01:33  You log into a POP server, and ask for an e-mail.
12:01:42  It just dumps it to you -- no indication of size is given at the beginning.
12:01:52  How do you know how many blocks to allocate to hold the e-mail message?  Answer: you don't.
12:02:02  well, unless you get a listing first
12:02:15  HTTP: you request a webpage from a web server using HTTP 1.1.  You look in the returned headers: how big is the result?  You have no idea.
12:02:39  Same with FTP.
12:03:15  If I am going to make a Forth OS environment for myself, I want to keep a collection of MP3s.  Some of these MP3s I'll have to download from the Internet.  File sizes are not consistently given by file servers on the Internet.
12:03:22  THey just "dump" it and let you deal with it.
12:03:47  question: when you have a persistent OS that gets its persistency from it's block-based design, is there a filesystem?
12:04:07  s/it's/its
12:04:27  Source code management -- a number of blocks in my FS/Forth source are more than 50% empty.  That's approximately 512-bytes of space wasted per such block.  Shadow blocks are usually mostly whitespace as well.
12:04:56  thin: The filesystem exists purely as a "ram disk" implementation in a persistant OS.
12:05:14  It still relies on the OS' paging system to swap blocks to the harddrive with a 1:1 mapping.
12:06:36  Files would eliminate all of these problems: conservation of storage space, the ability to handle arbitrarily long chunks of data, etc.
12:07:42  i should have made it clear that i understand what filesystems are about, handling variable length data, etc
12:07:47  I firmly believe this is one reason why FML has not taken off as Chuck had hoped -- you can pack only so much on a single block...
12:07:51  that wasn't my problem heh
12:08:02  what is FML? it's barely been defined
12:08:17  Chuck's Color-based markup of a content format.
12:08:30  eech, that didn't come out right.
12:08:33  are you sure it's "color-based" ?
12:08:40  Chuck's color-based markup for text.
12:08:44  thin: Positive.
12:08:48  uh, that wasn't my impression
12:08:48  did he ever actually do anything with that?
12:08:49  hm
12:08:57  No, he didn't.
12:09:03  At least, not publicly.
12:09:09  there's a c4th # on ircnet
12:09:18  heh
12:09:32  how many people on it?
12:09:33  there's a mailinglist for FML
12:10:18  thin: less than here
12:11:03  more than 3 people?
12:11:26  about the half
12:11:40  there's another fig-uk channel, they meet first saturday every month
12:12:04  where?
12:12:56  dunno
12:12:57  i forget
12:13:00 * kc5tja will have to check out that fig-uk channel sometime.
12:13:14  I'm hanging there..
12:13:16  i thought you already did :P
12:13:26  But nobody is ever there, except the one hour each month I am NOT on IRC.
12:13:29  Robert: Any interesting activity ever happen there?
12:13:40  Like I said, only once a month :)
12:13:46  Well, is it logged somewhere?
12:13:50  But there are lots of people then.
12:13:50  And where is it?
12:13:56  What server/network?
12:13:58  Hmm.. check the figuk site.
12:13:58  ircnet i think
12:13:59  IRCnet.
12:14:14  OK, now that we have one question answered... ;)
12:14:30  nobody is on the figuk channel until saturday
12:15:16  i.e. it's completely deserted except for 4 hours or more on the first saturday of the month
12:15:42  What times are they on?
12:16:05  it was like 11 am pdt iirc
12:16:09  or 10 am
12:16:31 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
12:16:38  i met jdamisch there and introduced him to this channel
12:16:40  "FIG UK hosts IRC sessions on the first Saturday of the month. on channel #figuk using the IRC server called "IRCNet". Sessions start at 9:00pm UK time and are open to everyone."
12:16:41  2 months ago
12:18:21  I can't bring up their site.
12:18:29  fig-uk.org
12:18:51  I can't bring up their site.
12:18:52  :)
12:18:59  It doesn't respond.
12:19:09  kc5tja: wait a bit..
12:19:15  same
12:19:43  It redirects to www.figuk.plus.com, which my DNS servers can't resolve.
12:20:08  Maybe they're hacking on the site.
12:20:48  212.159.8.1
12:21:09  that ip doesn't work for me
12:21:11  404 Not Found
12:21:31  just use google's cache :P
12:21:32  It looks almost as if they're moving the site from one provider to another.
12:21:42  Nahh, not important enough.  I'll just check later.
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12:55:35  mur: join #forth-offtopic
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13:11:03  mmmmm, forth pr0n
13:11:12  is that on-topic? :P
13:12:23  seems like i'm the only deviant on this channel
13:14:17  Yes, you are.  :)
13:28:02  (beside me ;)
13:28:13  oh right! how could i forget? :P
13:28:27  onetom: what are you up to these days eh?
13:29:19  thin: eh, linux based solutions... not much 4th :(
13:30:14  thin: usb fingerprint scanner 4 linux, fault tolerant load balancer 4 webservers, & documentation writing about these
13:32:48  thin, Robert?
13:32:54  mur?
13:32:58  mur: what?
13:33:01  you left -oftopic
13:33:36  i was curious if it would survive without me
13:33:44  robert, please join #forth-offtopic :P
13:33:48  haha
13:33:52 --- join: hp48nik (xru52729fj@1Cust31.tnt4.vancouver.bc.da.uu.net) joined #forth
13:33:57  hi hp48nik
13:34:11  hey there
13:34:36  another *.bc.ca forth person! ;-)
13:35:10  yup
13:35:14  i got a hp48g calc too!
13:35:41  sounds like conspiracy
13:35:48  that small area can't have 2 forthers >:)
13:35:54  cool... i've got two, an hp48g and a hp48gx
13:36:09  hp48 user rpl is like a cross between forth and lisp imho
13:36:15 * Robert has a TI and a casio. No forth :(
13:36:58  mur: there's more than 2 forthers in bc
13:37:11  there's 4 forthers in calgary alone. a small city of only 1 million :P
13:38:08  hehe
13:38:27  mur is jealous cause there's only 2 forthers in his country of 25 million
13:38:32  which means his people are really stupid ;P
13:38:37  j/k
13:38:44  finland has only 5 million people
13:38:55  oh, i added a 2
13:39:30  finland is an amazing country... can't you pay at lots of vending machines using your cellphone there?
13:39:51  Finland is a Swedish colony.
13:40:19  no!
13:40:23  hmm, i wonder why robert said that..  does he think he's superior? :P
13:40:39  he has problems that 20% of swedish population are roughyl finnish
13:40:48  roughly
13:41:10  yes you can use cellular to pay things
13:41:35  you pay bus with card too
13:41:36  that's so cool
13:41:51  (not credit card, just press different kind of card and it says beep and paid)
13:42:04  what's the finnish word for mobile (cell) phone?  someone told me before... i think it's like the word for "hand"
13:42:51  kännykkä
13:42:53  handy
13:43:00  thin: I'm just teasing mur.
13:43:13  ah
13:43:13  Robert,  beware i'll start talking finnish soon :D
13:43:18  thin: Finnish nationalists are so easy to make insane :)
13:43:27 * mur is not nationalist
13:43:29  robert: you're a major tease
13:43:39  and a tease is very similar to a troll :P
13:43:40 * mur is anarchist rather than nationalist
13:43:45  minarchist i think
13:43:47  :)
13:44:05  the largest troll is norwegian
13:44:19  they have just created firm to send all their trolls from norway on sea
13:44:27  that's why there are so many sea monsters near norway
13:46:22  ;)
13:46:49  stop mixing up the channels heh!
13:47:03  mur was talking ontopic in the offtopic channel..
13:47:16  and we're talking offtopic here already :P
13:47:36  hp48nik: is the forth with you?
13:48:20  thin, dada
13:48:22  :o)
13:48:57  thin: Sire, you wish offtopic?
13:49:37  there's already offtopic
13:49:40  at #forth-offtopic
13:50:15  and it's ontopic
13:50:18  this is offtopic
13:50:19  :)
13:50:22  heh
13:50:24  yep
13:50:41  yes, master... i feel a great disturbance in the forth... it is very evil... it's called C# !!!
13:51:04  and .NET!
13:51:14  somebody coded a forth .NET  eww!!!!
13:51:15  .not
13:51:16  evil!
13:51:24  yuck
13:51:25  evil-doers never rest
13:51:29 * hp48nik shivers
13:51:36  like bush. he'd need more sleep
13:51:40  to be more sane
13:51:40  thin: well, then here you go
13:51:49  Magnatune Manifesto    
13:51:49  We are an Internet record label which sells and licenses music by encouraging MP3 file trading and Internet Radio. 
13:51:49  When you find an artist you like, pay what you can afford to show your support, starting at $5 for an entire online album. Companies can sublicense our music for commercial use with our no haggling, easy online forms.   All money from your purchases is split 50/50 with our artists.
13:51:53  No major label connections.
13:51:57  We are not evil.
13:52:10  apropos evil
13:52:23  woah
13:52:27  that's so offtopic
13:52:45  suits you?
13:53:23  wrong channel
13:53:37  that's not offtopic. it's nottopic :)
13:54:15  ok excúse moi bb
13:54:20  naah
13:54:21  ugh
13:54:25  dont go :)
13:54:29 --- part: registration_req left #forth
13:54:58  do any of you have forth-related homepages?
13:55:10  forth.bespin.org is the channel's webpage
13:55:14  but it's under construction
13:55:16  and don't register
13:55:26  unless you're gonna submit an article
13:55:49  resources and forums links are broken at the moment
13:55:57  copyright message too :)
13:55:58  okay thanks
13:56:09  if you want to see the old site, it's at http://thin.bespin.org/forth
13:56:19  thin: wooow, watta new design!
13:56:51  thin: is it zope based?
13:57:46  BBL... bye all
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13:58:14  onetom: yeah
13:58:28  thin: & what component do u use? cmf?
13:58:36  cmf & plone..
13:59:31  Well, you can submit an article without registering too.  It's just that it has to go through an editorial review process.
13:59:32  aaah, plone! i almost forgot it
13:59:49  i checked a number of content management systems
13:59:58  but plone was the easiest to install
14:00:33  opencms requires tomcat & mysql, ezpublish didn't quite install, aegir cms requires mysql also..
14:17:32 --- join: yo|da (~yo|da@pD954506F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
14:19:31  what would you suggest for a complete newbee wanting to learn forth?
14:19:50 --- quit: gengar ("[BX] Nice boots, wanna fuck?")
14:20:13  i suggest pygmy tutor
14:20:42  what/where is that?
14:21:01  thin: thx 4 the info
14:21:39  http://212.219.56.131/sites/ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/forth/pftutr22.zip
14:21:43  it's dos
14:21:50  i think it's probably the best place for a newbie to start
14:29:06  OK, my editorial is republished.  All new and improved, and it has better flow.  All the spelling errors I could find are fixed.  Much of the text is rewritten to be clearer and more integrated.
14:29:36  thin: thx
14:29:43  It's actually not much of an editorial now; it's more like a regular article.  But I'll fix that later.
14:29:58 * kc5tja doesn't want to bother with renaming directories and updating all the links.  :D
14:30:25  kc5tja: ... how I was going to write the interpre_tt_er, I realized ....
14:30:51  kc5tja: yeah the site needs more framework for articles & other things..
14:31:10  i gotta figure the stuff out heh
14:31:34  "bother"""getting from text processing to execution"
14:31:58  onetom: I don't know what site you're looking at -- the page has zero occurances of interpretter on it.
14:32:11  You will want to refresh.
14:32:28  http://forth.bespin.org/Members/kc5tja/editorials/complexification-happens-to-everyone
14:32:41  interpreter not interpretter
14:32:46  onetom: That's the site I'm at, and it has zero occurances.
14:33:07  of course im not the 1 who really cares, but in case u care about it...
14:33:08  And only one occurance of interpreter.
14:33:31  Well, I do -- since i'm one of the editors for the site, it helps to have my own work edited.  :)
14:33:59  This is why I welcome feedback on all my writings.
14:34:00  aaah, u have updated it while i was reading
14:35:34 * yo|da understands software only from opcodes and object schemes
14:35:54 * kc5tja needs to find a better solution to footnotes, however.  The system I'm using now is inconvenient.
14:36:47  what would you suggest for a complete newbee wanting to learn forth building from assembler?
14:37:17  There is a set of articles published by Brad Rodriguez, called _Moving Forth_.
14:37:28  Let me get you a URL...
14:37:33  thin: where is that article about taste & style?
14:38:02  >:)
14:38:07  thin, the offtopic is still alive
14:38:21  yo|da: assembler is the terminolgy 4 refering 2 a compiler, assembly is the name of the lang
14:38:29  yo|da: http://zetetics.com/bj/papers/
14:39:00  onetom: Not consistently, it isn't.
14:39:13  Assembler is often used to refer to assembly in the states.
14:39:25  meta-assembler building forth or assembler building a forth metacompiler what do you prefer?
14:40:31  yo|da: I'm biased.  I used another Forth environment to bootstrap development of my own FS/Forth.  My previous two versions of FS/Forth, however, was normal assembler being used to build a normal Forth (no meta-anything involved -- very simple and direct).
14:40:52  s/was/were/
14:43:00  w/ asm i mean, starting from ground zero. ok, there are micro-opcodes too, but nm
14:44:45 * kc5tja nods
14:45:07  Oh well.  I need to get cruising here.  I need to get some food.
14:45:12  bbiab
14:45:14 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food
14:45:14 --- join: yo|da_ (~yo|da@pD954506F.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
14:45:32  kc5tja: used used... but its absolutely insane
14:45:52  aaan back, is yo|da
14:46:04  kc-food: just as say, using the word digging 2 refer 2 the shovel..
14:46:10  how much asm macros are a)needed b)reasonable to step further ie. building up a forth sys
14:46:13  mur! :-)
14:46:34 --- quit: yo|da (asimov.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
14:47:16 --- quit: yo|da_ (Client Quit)
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14:52:22  interesting con loss
14:52:43  i hope my q's are not too offtopic ;-)
14:54:35  nothing for #forth
14:54:53  suggests a bot which collects questions
14:55:24  sure, as soon as someone codes it
14:55:34  education wealth starts w/ questions
14:56:09  thin: khm.. well... the ..khm.. article.... ;)
14:56:13  there is _no_ lack of ideas.  only people willing to implement them.
14:56:45  a chinese proverb:
14:56:45  those can be piled and sorted, parsed and anytime worked on anyhow
14:57:00  who asks is dummy for 5 minutes, who doesn't ask is dummy for entire life
14:57:40  mur: you are wise
14:57:45  i agree, i want to implement a project tracking system on the forth site
14:57:49  so that people can submit ideas
14:57:57  and others can say "hey, i'm working on this"
14:58:05  and others can come along and say "i like this! lets collaborate"
14:58:21  does it involve bots?
14:59:03  it'll be done primarily thru the website, but a bot could take ideas from the channel and submit to the website
15:00:35  and it involves me getting off my arse
15:00:40  i'm sitting on my arse today
15:00:41  fun fun
15:02:53  well, at least i(most?) will sooner or later work on answers of my own articulated botcollected questions. profit is synergy, inspiration, clear methodics. and nothing is lost.
15:03:15  please
15:03:26  dont talk so simply i cant' get the main poit from such minimalistic phrases
15:03:44  who's talking simply?
15:03:49  >:)
15:03:55  if someone was talking simply i'd understand them
15:03:59  unless you're talking about me
15:04:04  s/my own/my (their?) own/
15:04:06  then thanks for the complment :P
15:04:24  urgh
15:04:30  heh
15:04:30  opsound is dead :(
15:05:06  detritus is alive :)
15:08:45  nm it was just an idea i wanted to share.. i will implement it anyway, it's positive future :-)
15:09:58  don't get me wrong, proposal was *not* a feature required
15:10:12  erm, feature request
15:10:18 * thin can't understand you very well at all :/
15:12:22  yoda, is it. thin.
15:12:48  kc-food: mr bradford is a very cool guy :) thx 4 the link
15:13:07 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
15:13:21  thin:   plz dig me that url about prging taste&style
15:13:27  4me
15:13:28  ?
15:13:32  oh
15:13:36  nah
15:13:38  paulgraham.com/taste.html
15:13:42  "that vase" ;)
15:13:48  yeah, paul
15:13:54  that lisp fan guy
15:14:13 * onetom is in the mood of readin articles :)
15:14:21  thin: thx
15:18:15 --- quit: thin ("gtg")
15:18:41  So, has anyone been following this whole SCO thing?
15:18:55  It was just brought to my attention today.
15:20:40  maybe it's better to do patents on oncoming visions, serious question
15:21:40  tathi: ?item 001 stored
15:21:48  nm :-)
15:22:01  ? OK
15:24:10  context
15:24:16  is
15:25:05   suggests a bot which collects questions
15:25:34  oh.
15:25:40  and so on @clog
15:25:40  ugh. ;)
15:27:36  implementation release date not yet set. maybe next week or year ;-)
15:28:32  heh
15:29:10  but an forth irc client is quite finished
15:29:24  relatively..
15:29:50  works over serial only atm
15:30:04  next ethernet
15:30:57  cool cool
15:31:45  http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ :D
15:33:30  ROFL
15:34:21  even old yoda laughs
15:34:35  harhar got to chump this :-)
15:35:42 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
15:36:35  http://detritus.net/
15:42:03 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth
15:49:35  heh.  how to piss off the entire free software world in one easy lesson.
15:49:37  http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux03/ScoSource-03_Story01.html
15:52:39 --- quit: yo|da ("No Read error: 81 (Route to Post)")
15:55:34  hey
15:58:46  hi a7r
16:14:15 --- quit: jstahuman ("leaving")
16:15:53 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:25:35 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s18.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth
16:26:24  Well, except conceptually, I've gotten nowhere creating a dictionary *sigh*
16:34:14 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth
16:35:10 --- quit: mur ("gn")
16:36:24 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja
16:36:26  back
17:28:30  Aikido time.
17:28:34 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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18:27:00 --- join: snowrichard (~chatzilla@c66.190.103.110.ts46v-01.mrshll.tx.charter.com) joined #forth
18:27:20  hello
19:02:08 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
19:02:36  so, I hear this channel is cool and I should hang out here more again ;)
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20:23:14 --- join: snowrichard (~rsnow2@c66.190.103.110.ts46v-01.mrshll.tx.charter.com) joined #forth
20:23:32  anybody awake
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21:30:52  re..
22:06:13 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth
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23:35:16  hi
23:40:42  hey
23:46:18  yoh
23:46:38  hrm, I need an x86 Forth that I can interact with over a serial port, for this project.
23:52:53  just take any Forth w/ src , vectorize KEY and EMIT and write COM versions
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.06.04