00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.05.31
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03:42:26 <Fractal> Ya cause capitalism works so well...
03:42:42 <Fractal> One euro a day, that's what one third of humanity, or two billion people, are living with,"
03:42:50 <Fractal> "Two euros a day, that's what a European cow gets on average from the European Union's Common Agricultural Policy (farm subsidies)."
03:42:58 <Fractal> "Three euros a day, that's the contribution of each American citizen towards the US military budget," Rebelle added.
04:31:53 <Robert> Heh.
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08:20:19 <Robert> Hi
08:20:25 <Robert> And no, there's no activity here :)
08:20:33 <PoppaVic> Lo. Yeah, I can see that.
08:21:00 <PoppaVic> Not really suprising, but depressing.
08:23:20 <Robert> Does it help if I tell you there is more activity when you're not here?
08:24:06 <PoppaVic> Actually, it doesn't matter one way or the other <shrug> I was simply checking to see if kc* was in, and - obviously - yakkin' with you.
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09:53:10 <gilbertdeb> hello
09:57:23 <mur> terve! :)
11:11:46 <Robert> Hey
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12:40:35 <jdamisch> hi
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13:13:02 <jdamisch> hi
13:13:04 <thin> hi jdamisch, gilberdeb :)
13:13:35 <jdamisch> i'm just hanging out, getting an auto file to work in Swift
13:14:11 <jdamisch> it works
13:14:12 <thin> jdamisch: do you have a forth article in you? ;)
13:14:21 <jdamisch> maybe
13:14:35 <jdamisch> i have something i have been thinking about on and off for awhile
13:15:26 <thin> what about?
13:16:10 <jdamisch> well, you know how sometimes people like to compare code complexity in terms of lines of code
13:16:44 <jdamisch> well, in Forth there are varous formatting styles, so lines of code may not be a totally percise measuring stick
13:16:58 <jdamisch> like some people use blocks and the format is horizontal
13:17:05 <jdamisch> or some people use files and the format is vertical
13:17:09 <jdamisch> or a mixture of the two
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13:17:35 <jdamisch> so I was thinking of measuring complexity in terms of Words and Numbers
13:17:41 <jdamisch> everything separated by a space
13:17:59 <jdamisch> I don't know what to call it yet though
13:18:08 <jdamisch> NOF   Number Of reFerences???
13:18:16 <jdamisch> NOW  Number Of Words????
13:18:24 <thin> fractal: yeah, subsidies are anti-capitalistic
13:18:59 <thin> you don't need to count the "Of"
13:19:03 <thin> just NW or something like that
13:19:06 <thin> :P
13:19:15 <jdamisch> NOR is overloading the bitwise opp
13:19:36 <jdamisch> NOF is easy to pronounce
13:19:40 <thin> NR
13:19:55 <jdamisch> NW  enn double yew
13:20:02 <thin> enn arr
13:20:12 <jdamisch> well something
13:20:22 <jdamisch> I wrote a stat program for Win32Forth that does this
13:20:27 <jdamisch> but its not perfect
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13:20:38 <thin> a lot of acronyms don't include the vowels..
13:20:46 <thin> divgrad: hi!
13:21:00 <divgrad> thin: hi
13:21:14 <thin> divgrad: do you have a forth article in you? ;)
13:21:32 <thin> jdamisch: it's an idea.. write the article :PPPP
13:21:37 <jdamisch> one thing about Swift is that there are versions of the compiling words which are used inside of the object definitions so I need to be able to redefine those too.  I am also counting definitions in my stats
13:21:45 <jdamisch> just a min
13:22:27 <thin> jdamisch: there might be better ways to determine the complexity..
13:22:33 <divgrad> thin:what kind of forth article?
13:22:46 <thin> and what about determining if the program was coded efficently or by a crappy coder?
13:22:58 <thin> divgrad: anything forth related..  look at the topic
13:23:47 <jdamisch> well, i am just giving a description of somethat that I was maybe going to put up for public dunking anyway
13:24:07 <jdamisch> so you type in   INCLUDE NOF-READER
13:24:16 <jdamisch> and then you goto the directory where your load files are
13:24:26 <jdamisch> and then do something like type in   INCLUDE PROGRAM
13:24:35 <jdamisch> and after it loads, you go  .STATS
13:24:43 <divgrad> hmmm, i think i could write something...when i am in an appropriate mood
13:24:52 <jdamisch> and the app that i have been working on gives the following stats
13:24:54 * thin nods
13:25:07 <jdamisch> NOF Total = 3035
13:25:18 <jdamisch> Number of Words = 296
13:25:29 <jdamisch> Average NOF / Word = 10
13:25:33 <jdamisch> Number of Variables 18
13:25:38 <jdamisch> Number of Files = 20
13:25:45 <jdamisch> Average NOF / File = 151
13:25:52 <thin> wow, that's a lot of variables
13:25:52 <jdamisch> (done)
13:26:02 <jdamisch> maybe too many
13:26:35 <jdamisch> well, you get the idea
13:26:54 <thin> i can understand a handful of variables, but i know some coders like to define a whole bunch of variables at the begining of the program.   I think that's wrong,  just define the variables as you need them.
13:26:55 <jdamisch> that is what i have
13:26:59 <thin> yep
13:27:10 <thin> could be useful
13:27:10 <jdamisch> i tried to keep the variable down
13:28:00 <jdamisch> If I went ahead with this, I would want to have versions that work with various Forths
13:28:07 <divgrad> who can tell me why Forth Inc keeps 2yr old version of SwiftForth on its site?
13:28:10 <jdamisch> I only have the Win32Forth one for now
13:28:31 <thin> divgrad: the demo?  why not?
13:28:32 <jdamisch> maybe they have not upgraded it in that amount of time
13:28:57 <jdamisch> its the same version as the one you get when you pay, its just that turnkeying works and you get the full source
13:29:47 <thin> divgrad: i mean, why should they not have a 2yr old version of swiftforth ?  if it's just the demo, it's not really a big deal
13:30:34 <jdamisch> btw, when you do  STARTER MYGUY  to have a starting word for your  PROGRAM MYFORTH  then MYGUY needs INTERACTIVE at the end of him or the turnkeyd Forth barfs when you launch it
13:30:37 <jdamisch> that is not in the Manual
13:31:20 <jdamisch> its not exactly a simple Forth :^)
13:32:04 <jdamisch> i can use it though
13:32:42 <jdamisch> where is  sifbot?
13:32:47 <jdamisch> spifbot
13:32:51 <thin> sifbot
13:33:05 <thin> who cares? it's a mostly useless bot
13:33:18 <jdamisch> yeah, its just a novelty
13:33:36 <jdamisch> like a keychain of ET wearing a baseball cap and holding a can of beer
13:33:42 <thin> well it was just a hack thrown together, coded crappily in C, etc
13:33:48 <thin> eventually there'll be a better forthbot
13:34:11 <jdamisch> it didn't even remember the line after you typed it in
13:34:29 <thin> yeah, that was a "feature" :P
13:34:37 <jdamisch> call the new bot  spifbot for spiffy robot
13:34:49 <jdamisch> or  niftbot
13:35:02 <thin> sifbot = safe interpreted forth bot
13:35:12 <jdamisch> because you can't hose the server with it
13:35:18 --- nick: thin -> forthbot
13:35:23 --- nick: forthbot -> thin
13:35:34 <thin> the new forth bot will be called forth or forthbot
13:36:09 <jdamisch> like do a bunch of assembly code   here  hex   2a c,  12 c,  45 c,  23 c,    call
13:36:14 <jdamisch> and hose the os
13:36:21 <jdamisch> crash the server
13:36:54 <thin> nah, it'll have safeguards
13:36:59 <jdamisch> good
13:37:38 <jdamisch> :  nuke  0 begin @ again  ;   nuke
13:37:45 <thin> i gotta go
13:37:49 <jdamisch> bye
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13:41:03 <jdamisch> hi
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13:55:36 <divgrad> jdamisch, u know all, why www.forth.org is a fully dead place?
13:55:49 <jdamisch> no
13:55:58 <jdamisch> i don't know the story
13:56:41 <jdamisch> i don't go there, there isn't much activity there, if any
13:56:58 <divgrad> i open the page and see 'last modified 3/25/03'
13:57:03 <jdamisch> i still have a few issues of Forth Dimentions
13:57:18 <divgrad> i open the page and see 'last modified 3/25/02'
13:57:24 <divgrad> ok
13:59:54 <jdamisch> what Forth do you use?
14:01:16 <divgrad> Swift demo
14:01:29 <divgrad> just play with it
14:01:33 <jdamisch> i bought Swift
14:01:38 <jdamisch> the $400 version
14:02:02 <divgrad> d'u use it for commercial app development?
14:02:20 <jdamisch> are you confused by the fact that some of the demos don't work or won't save application but you can still type in DEMO and it will run?
14:02:30 <jdamisch> no, i am just a hobby coder
14:02:46 <jdamisch> there are a few confusing things in the demo, i got through it though
14:03:09 <jdamisch> i found out which lines to modify in the source of the DEMOS that don't work to get them to work
14:03:20 <divgrad> no, im confused by the fact that Swift seems to be not developed
14:03:28 <jdamisch> not developed?
14:03:42 <jdamisch> it s/b supported
14:03:47 <divgrad> new versions, new possibilities
14:04:14 <divgrad> ok
14:04:23 <jdamisch> maybe they don't have the manpower to keep coming out with new versions every 6 months, and feel that it will work ok the way it for their clients, and their clients know who they are anyway
14:04:28 <jdamisch> ????
14:05:24 <jdamisch> i think that it is supported, just not being actively developed much, maybe ForthInc is too busy with clients who want large custom apps? ?????
14:05:28 <jdamisch> i don't know
14:05:36 <jdamisch> maybe ask on comp.lang.forth
14:06:18 <divgrad> i even suspect that Swift is a one-man-product
14:06:33 <jdamisch> i don't know how many people made it
14:06:59 <jdamisch> what are you looking for in a Forth?
14:07:50 <divgrad> more consistent library of words i guess
14:08:00 <jdamisch> i just want something stable and that will just pretty much be a plain old regular Forth
14:08:45 <jdamisch> Forth doesn't have much libraries
14:09:07 * divgrad nods
14:09:16 <jdamisch> each Forth has it's own group of source files or source blocks that impliment stuff for that one particular Forth
14:09:39 <jdamisch> but that may even seem meager to somebody from a more effluent environment perhaps one could say
14:09:58 <jdamisch> but Forth is like a Roll Your Own Language
14:10:20 <jdamisch> you may not reinvent any wheels, but you can impliment other people inventions in your own unique way
14:10:38 <divgrad> at times i think of implementing my own forth-like lang
14:10:42 <jdamisch> you you do need to invent a new wheel, well then you have good tools to be able to do that
14:10:53 <jdamisch> i sometimes think of making a non ANS Forth
14:11:22 <divgrad> sure, ANS makes me sick
14:11:43 <jdamisch> some of the words have alot of paramaters when you could the doubles
14:11:45 <jdamisch> like <#
14:11:54 <jdamisch> maybe it makes some sense though
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14:13:11 <jdamisch> here is a gripe,  there is no standard for 0ALLOT or whatever you want to call it
14:13:20 <jdamisch> everybody has it, and everybody calls it something different
14:13:32 <jdamisch> oh but i still luv 4th anyway\
14:14:36 <jdamisch> usually DP is the dictionary pointer but Elizabeth calls it H
14:15:08 <jdamisch> still i don't care that much i've learned to get around with locate and acclimate myself to the Forth
14:15:32 <divgrad> what can u tell abt colorforth?
14:15:44 <jdamisch> i have only played with it a little bit
14:15:49 <jdamisch> i can tell you some stuff about it
14:16:01 <jdamisch> it is an OS, it runs w/o DOS or Windows or UNIX
14:16:22 <divgrad> ok
14:16:32 <jdamisch> it has a nonstandard keyboard layout, but there is a description on screen so you can fuddle your way around
14:16:45 <jdamisch> everything is different bout it, so you need to let yourself get used to it
14:16:56 <jdamisch> it is very simple, like i think 2k
14:17:07 <jdamisch> it has an optimisimg compiler
14:17:16 <jdamisch> it uses color for punctuation
14:17:28 <jdamisch> i can't remember which colors go to which though
14:17:42 <jdamisch> like red means a new word is being compiles
14:17:48 <jdamisch> something like that
14:18:00 <divgrad> i read an article abt it
14:18:15 <jdamisch> it is from chuck so it is probably pretty stable
14:18:30 <jdamisch> i like the idea of Forth OS, maybe i will spend some good time with it some day
14:18:46 <jdamisch> I would want to get the CD-RW working in it
14:19:02 <jdamisch> and then get an AUTO block stream to load from the CD-RW on startup
14:19:16 <jdamisch> be able to use the CR-RW as blocks
14:19:59 <divgrad> d'u program for money in other langs?
14:20:16 <jdamisch> divgrad, do you know how to make your own AUTO file in Swift?
14:20:32 <jdamisch> i am just a hobbiest, i don't program for $$
14:20:37 <jdamisch> maybe someday
14:20:55 <jdamisch> right now i know a bit of assembly and Forth pretty well
14:21:11 <divgrad> no, i dont know
14:21:46 <divgrad> ok
14:21:46 <jdamisch> i have set SwiftForth up as a dev environment, i can explain it to you, just a min please
14:21:50 <jdamisch> brb
14:22:27 <divgrad> no need to explain cos i've read the books coming with it
14:22:28 <divgrad> ok
14:23:44 <jdamisch> ok
14:24:05 <jdamisch> first i have an AUTO file which automatically load when Swift loads
14:24:18 <jdamisch> that way you can change the AUTO file quickly to automate your Forth
14:24:37 <jdamisch> start up Swift
14:24:49 <jdamisch> use CD to move out of the Windows Directory and into the User directory
14:25:50 <jdamisch> then type in like   :  LOAD-AUTO   s" auto.f" included  interactive ;
14:26:05 <jdamisch> then   STARTER LOAD-AUTO 
14:26:16 <jdamisch> then PROGRAM MYFORTH
14:26:37 <jdamisch> that will put MYFORTH a new forth that uses the AUTO file into your USER directory
14:27:11 <divgrad> sorry, gtg
14:27:12 <jdamisch> now go into your user directory and make a shortcut to it on the desktop
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14:27:35 <divgrad> it was nice to talk to u
14:27:37 <divgrad> bye
14:27:47 <jdamisch> ok, thats fine, maybe some other time
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14:28:10 <jdamisch> i will finish my story because maybe somebody who is recording the channel may want to read it
14:28:30 <jdamisch> you need to create the AUTO.F file in the USER directory or the new Forth will puke
14:29:07 <jdamisch> you can have words in it like   : >U   Z" C:\forthinc\swiftforth\user\" SetCurrentDirectory DROP ;
14:29:16 <jdamisch> which gets you to the USER directory really fast
14:30:34 <jdamisch> MARKER AUTO   ( lines of code  )    : REDO   AUTO  >U S" AUTO.F" INCLUDED ;
14:30:56 <jdamisch> this will take the place of FORGET if you are fiddling around in the console and forget to create a marker
14:31:00 <jdamisch> sometimes i do that
14:33:25 <jdamisch> if you are in the habit of going  MARKER FILENAME at the start of every source file then you can also do  EDIT FILENAME  to bring that file up  this works for Notepad too 
14:34:06 <jdamisch> maybe i could reformat what i just wrote and then put it up on my site.  maybe make a new page called SwiftForth discoveries
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14:35:16 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:35:23 <jdamisch> what i typed in was just from my head it wasn't tested
14:36:08 <jdamisch> hi
14:37:03 <TheBlueWizard> hiya jdamisch
14:37:11 <jdamisch> the hang out
14:37:17 <TheBlueWizard> yep
14:37:48 <jdamisch> maybe in a few hours i'll go code some
14:37:54 <TheBlueWizard> k
14:38:39 <jdamisch> are you doing any Forth stuff?
14:39:47 <TheBlueWizard> haven't done that in a long time :/
14:39:59 <jdamisch> so you just like the company i take it
14:40:08 <jdamisch> i am taming SwiftForth
14:40:47 <jdamisch> i still don't get the Object system and the Windows stuff very well, but i was able to hack the file for the main console window
14:42:21 <TheBlueWizard> I like company, yes...plus I did a tiny bit of Forth from time to time....just that I'm busy :P (right now I take a timeout for a regular Sat. chat with my buddy on another channel)
14:43:03 <jdamisch> i see
14:43:53 * TheBlueWizard smiles re: "taming" SwiftForth
14:44:15 <jdamisch> maybe i should make a page on my site called "SwiftForth Discoveries"
14:44:41 <jdamisch> i could put all of the goobers in there too
14:44:46 <jdamisch> i have found a few
14:45:31 <jdamisch> but its from ForthInc and i'd think that it'd be pretty stable and sturdy
14:45:42 <jdamisch> i beleive that it is
14:47:15 <TheBlueWizard> hmm
14:48:23 <jdamisch> it includes the source, which doesn't look too compliced, you would not know that from SEE THEWORD
14:48:53 <jdamisch> i'm making the transition from lowercase to uppercase source :^)
14:49:43 <jdamisch> complicated
14:50:28 <jdamisch> if the source was not included, it would be NO CONTEST i could do it
14:50:36 <jdamisch> i coudn't do it i mean
14:51:14 <TheBlueWizard> you couldn't do what? program?
14:51:26 <jdamisch> i couldn't use SwiftForth
14:52:32 <TheBlueWizard> oh...I see...though SwiftForth should come with good docs
14:52:40 <jdamisch> it does
14:52:48 <jdamisch> the source are also docs :^)
14:53:04 <jdamisch> if you don't use LOCATE then you should try it 
14:53:20 <jdamisch> I don't use SEE hardly anymore
14:54:25 <TheBlueWizard> what is LOCATE?
14:55:26 <jdamisch> EDIT <name>   opens the source file that <name> is defined in, you can use it to zoom in once you locate it and decide that it might be importiant 
14:55:51 <jdamisch> it works a bit differently than in Win32Forth, but you can use the MARKER trick
14:55:59 <TheBlueWizard> hmm
14:56:11 * TheBlueWizard hasn't used Win32Forth either
14:56:21 <jdamisch> what Forth did you use?
14:56:34 <jdamisch> should I start capilizing all of the chars in FORTH ?
14:57:10 <jdamisch> :^)
14:57:49 <TheBlueWizard> oh, I first learned Forth on C-64, then dabbled around with Pygmy, Uniforth, and several others....all of them either shareware or public domain...nothing commercial
14:58:09 <jdamisch> ah, another hobbiest
15:01:11 <jdamisch> maybe someday i can make a forth bot called Deathbot written in assembly
15:02:19 <jdamisch> :^)
15:03:18 <TheBlueWizard> lol
15:04:31 <TheBlueWizard> you can consider me an expert hobbyist, cuz I've mucked around with the innards of various Forth to serious extent, and cooked up a few real weirdos for fun
15:04:46 <jdamisch> cool
15:05:07 <jdamisch> i'm a decient hobbyist because I can pretty much get what I want.
15:05:13 <jdamisch> it might take too darn long but I can get it.
15:05:23 <jdamisch> economy of expression
15:06:44 * TheBlueWizard nods
15:15:59 <jdamisch> why does your name get the @ by it  i'm sure somebody told me b4
15:16:09 <jdamisch> you have privleges
15:16:23 <TheBlueWizard> oh, someone add me to the op list
15:16:31 <TheBlueWizard> yes I have op priv
15:16:37 <jdamisch> what is that?
15:16:40 <jdamisch> do for you?
15:16:48 <jdamisch> what does that do for you?
15:17:00 <jdamisch> I can have good grammar and spelling if I try harder.  :^)
15:17:06 <jdamisch> I am just hangng out here.
15:19:34 <TheBlueWizard> oh, @ lets me do various things with the channel, like kicking jerks off here, opping someone, whatever
15:19:58 <jdamisch> it's good 2 b able 2 kick goonz of the channel
15:20:14 <jdamisch> what is ChanServ?
15:22:22 <TheBlueWizard> type "/msg chanserv help" to find out what that is
15:22:27 <jdamisch> ok
15:22:45 <TheBlueWizard> also type "/msg nickserv help" to learn more as well
15:24:47 <jdamisch> why would you need to be able to UNBAN yourself?
15:26:11 <jdamisch> nuthin
15:26:13 <TheBlueWizard> not sure why UNBAN is needed; never have used it....I think it is to prevent an op from gratituously abusing the ban on another op
15:27:00 <jdamisch> i see
16:18:04 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go now...bye!
16:18:10 <jdamisch> bye
16:18:19 <TheBlueWizard> bye jdamisch
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16:54:32 <jdamisch> hi
17:03:07 --- quit: crc ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.")
17:04:29 <jdamisch> crc was spambot
17:25:35 <jdamisch> bye
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