00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.05.29 00:01:02 re 00:01:09 However, I'm off to bed. :) 00:01:31 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 00:01:40 --- quit: thin ("me too, good night all") 02:39:19 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:20:22 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.141) joined #forth 03:41:02 moin 03:54:43 --- quit: Serg_Penguin () 05:12:58 * Speuler gone, mountain stroll 06:40:28 3a2lucky 07:12:42 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:57:42 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0010b556bfe0.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 07:57:42 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 10:01:54 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-185-222.phnet.fi) joined #forth 10:18:43 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:34:25 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 11:16:50 --- join: thin (~thin@stu04159.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 11:16:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 11:26:16 --- join: I440r (~I440r@dialup-67.29.205.31.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 11:27:18 Hi :) 11:27:58 Hi I440r, Robert 11:28:46 I440r: massive changes to the forth site coming soon :D 11:31:21 Robert: ping i440r 11:31:34 20:31:26 [OPN] CTCP PING reply from I440r: 0.799 seconds 11:32:03 ok 11:44:43 long live the 8051! 11:45:07 50 mips 8051 - http://www.cygnal.com/ 11:45:20 hah 11:45:20 :) 11:45:30 stop the madness. 11:46:36 Hehe. 11:54:46 --- quit: I440r ("abort" damn - not enough spam in my mail box!"") 11:56:20 --- quit: mur ("maybe more animations, maybe not.. reading more >:)") 12:02:59 WEBSITE DEVELOPMENT IS A PITA! 12:03:13 AND I LOVEI T 12:03:14 IT! 12:03:19 :P 12:06:14 --- quit: Speuler (Connection timed out) 12:06:47 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4d5c.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 12:07:10 WB SPEULER 12:15:32 Caps lock... PLEASE. 12:15:41 too late 12:18:03 :) 12:33:35 Robert: your reaction above, was about maintaining the status quo 12:34:13 the current status quo doesn't support CAPITALS 12:35:12 we must rebel against the status quo 12:35:31 Yes, down with capitalism. 12:35:50 you must be mistakened. the current status quo is anti-capitalism 12:36:00 Not in thin-land. 12:36:44 i'm speaking of the real world 12:37:15 You're not a part of it? 12:37:31 even the usa is anti-capitalistic :/ 12:38:00 Uhm..right. 12:38:32 * thin wonders which country has the least economic controls and legislation 12:38:58 Somalia, probably. 12:40:05 what happened in somalia ? isn't it under a dictatorship or something right now? 12:40:21 i've forgotten what happened to somalia 12:41:01 I have no idea, but the chaos over there seems like something you want :P "I have a bigger gun and more money, OBEY!". 12:41:25 i make an effort not to pay attention to world events because they are ultimately redundant :P 12:42:11 a pure capitalistic society doesn't have any coercion. whereas socialistic & communistic & mixed-economy governments are ALL about coercion 12:43:03 in the form of taxes & other legislation 12:43:50 suppose there's a group of 100 people and they want to steal money from 1 person. is it moral? how about when the group is 1000? or a million? at what point does it become ethical? (it never does) :P 12:44:44 Suppose a minority wants to rule a majority, is THAT moral? That's what is happening and will happen even in your society. 12:45:45 coercion is NEVER moral 12:45:58 and what minority are you thinking of? 12:46:24 Money == power. 12:47:18 And capitalism has a nasty habit of distributing money (==power) in a very bad way. That is, the more unscrupulous and destructive you are, the more you get. 12:47:35 what is money? 12:47:40 I need some coding work done, you can discuss with yourself for a while. 12:47:44 lol 12:48:00 robert: ask yourself: what is money? 12:48:54 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 12:48:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 12:50:29 hi kc5tja 12:50:29 thin: Depends... since it's obviously abused for other purposes than it's intended to, it's hard to define. 12:51:27 * kc5tja is archiving his Amiga Workbench installation. 12:51:44 Backing it up now while I still have a chance... :D 12:51:56 since all my other backups are gone 12:53:31 * kc5tja will invest in a null-modem today, and a 9/25-pin serial connector converter, and transfer it to the Linux box. Then I'll have "two" Amigas, as I can run it under UAE. :D 12:53:33 robert: money is production. the more production in the world, the more money that is "created". when a stupid evil person steals "money" from others by being unscrupulous, he is effectively taking potential production out of the economy, and seriously hampering the efforts of the people he stole from 12:54:01 kc5tja: UAE = emulator ? 12:54:06 Unix Amiga Emulator 12:54:22 will you be connecting the UAE to the amiga 500? 12:54:35 No. 12:54:38 * thin thinks of an amiga beowulf cluster for a moment ;) 12:54:48 thin: But how do you value someone's work? Today 12 hours of hard body work is valued less than 5 minutes of a laywer's time. 12:55:01 I'm simply cloning my Amiga so I have a backup of it. 12:55:06 robert: the market values the work automatically 12:55:17 robert: supply and demand 12:55:24 Yes. But look at the example. 12:55:40 It should make even you understand that the market is wrong(tm). 12:56:08 robert: if everyone were lawyers and one person was a farmer, should they all recieve the same amount of money? no. the farmer should recieve the most money because his labour has a higher value 12:56:53 So? 12:56:57 In a pure, ideal capitalistic economy, this is true. 12:57:03 However, existing capitalism in America doesn't work that way. 12:57:09 robert: one of the basic premises no one challenges is: people should be made equal, people should get the same amount of money regardless of what kind of jobs they work. 12:57:17 kc5tja: Which is what thin is complaining at. ;) 12:57:18 We are at a loss for farmers, and yet, they're paid so very little. 12:57:39 robert: but if one thinks about that premise, and thinks about applying it.. one will understand that the economy will grind to a standstill.. it will no longer function 12:57:53 thin: Why? 12:58:08 robert: WRONG, i said the capitalism in america ISN'T a pure capitalistic economy 12:58:16 Yes. 12:58:19 That's what I mean. 12:58:27 And you say that it should be. 12:58:58 The problem with capitalism is that it depends entirely on the people's ability to think rationally. 12:59:06 kc5tja: true 12:59:14 thin: Explain why nothing would be done if people were equal. 12:59:44 robert: equal in what way? 12:59:44 equal in rights? 12:59:44 or equal in getting the same size pie ? 12:59:44 thin: Same amount of money (resources) for the same amount of work. 12:59:59 that would cause the economy to grind to a standstill 13:00:06 thin: Maybe with minor differencies to compensate for e.g. dangerous/hard work, etc. 13:00:07 and people would starve, and have a lower standard of living, etc 13:00:20 thin: You said that. And I asked _WHY_. 13:00:35 First of all, work cannot be quantized -- only the end-result can be. 13:00:48 robert: well it's a bit hard to explain it in irc.. it requires an article to explain it :) 13:01:02 Second, people ARE NOT created equal. I'm an overwhelmingly superior programmer to my mother, for example, while she can upholster a couch vastly better than I. 13:01:21 Thus, it takes her more work per product to program, and me more work/product to upholster something. 13:01:49 kc5tja: Right, but if she works 8 hours, and you work 8 hours... you've done the same amount of work. 13:01:56 If work could be quantized, my job as a consultant would be much, much simpler. :) 13:02:03 No. 13:02:07 Sorry, that's not at all true. 13:02:27 In 8 hours, I can bang out over 10KB of code, while my mom MAYBE will get only 2K done. 13:02:31 It is, assuming you both work in some kind of a "normal" tempo. 13:02:48 I'm 5x more productive than she. 13:02:49 --- quit: sifbot (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:02:53 You're saying that it is, if we both are equal in our capabilities. 13:02:54 I don't compare the code. 13:02:58 I compare the _time_ you use. 13:03:06 After all, that's what you sell to employers. 13:03:09 By definition, a person's tempo depends entirely on their prowess at whatever they're doing. 13:03:13 you have to compare the code. you have to compare the end result 13:03:17 Wrong. 13:03:21 the employers sell the end result 13:03:24 You sell the *product* to employers. 13:03:38 even if they pay you for your time 13:03:38 They don't care how long it took you to make it. 13:04:06 Then maybe you should ask if that's the way it should be. 13:04:50 Especially when it leads to strange paradoxes, where one person's time is worth thousand times more than anohter person's time. 13:05:02 It's all about expertise. 13:05:09 I'm selling my time for $80/hour. 13:05:13 It can't be any other way. People have tried doing it other ways, but the economic system always broke down. 13:06:13 kc5tja: And chinese workers for maybe $.8/hour. That's a factor of 100 differing. 13:06:26 thin: Hah, that's what I call a water-proof proof :D 13:06:35 thin: "He couldn't do it, so it's impossible." 13:06:37 Robert: They don't know *shit* compared to me. 13:06:52 They're factory workers, employed by the state, with no regard for education. 13:07:17 Most of them are political outcasts, to boot. 13:07:25 In the Soviet Union, they let 10% of the farms become privately owned and run. Those farms ended up producing 40% of the food for the country. 13:07:37 China employs people by the thousands NOT because there is an economy, but because they're slave labor for convicts and political enemies. 13:07:48 Not only china. 13:07:50 They _had_ to let the farms become privately owned & run, or they wouldn't have had enough food for the country. 13:08:30 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81628.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 13:08:32 Other countries, too. Some of them are quite liberal. Besides, that's not the question. The question is if it's reasonable for one person to get 100 times more resources for his work. 13:08:39 And if you say it is - why? 13:09:10 Robert: what if one person spends more time developing his skills? What if he invests time and effort to develop surgery skills? 13:09:29 thin: That's a better example than what I was going to propose. 13:09:31 Do you not think he should be compensated for his investment? For his risk? 13:09:46 For the 16+ years he spent in school instead of with his family? 13:10:16 will people who feel they have superior skills be happy getting paid the same as `inferiors'? 13:10:22 What if he worked that time instead? 13:10:25 Absolutely not. 13:10:28 Would that have been "slacking"? 13:10:48 Robert: Goign to grad school isn't work? 13:10:48 Actually he's doing MORE productive work that way. 13:10:54 Of course. 13:10:59 Robert: What the fuck do you mean, "Of course?" 13:11:00 But why is working _less_ work? 13:11:05 Have you ever been to college at all? 13:11:08 wossname: it's not about "superiors" and "inferiors". 13:11:14 kc5tja: Of course it is work. 13:11:14 Have you ever experienced grad-school before? 13:11:22 kc5tja: That's what I meant, you misunderstood me. 13:11:22 Oh ... be specific next time. :) 13:11:26 Hehe. 13:11:36 So.. both ways you work. 13:11:40 Right. 13:11:50 but it might be, thin 13:11:59 a doctor might not be happy getting paid as a street sweeper 13:12:04 unhappy work is inferior work 13:12:11 So tomorrow, I'll open a medical practice, and charge $600/surgery and $150/hr for bed-side visits. 13:12:15 Even though I don't know a thing about it. 13:12:50 IMHO, medical service is a right. Nothing "the market" should have anything to do with. 13:13:02 It all boils down to scarcity, just like capitalism depends on. Few people know how to do surgery in this country. Flipping burgers, however, is a dime a dozen. 13:14:27 wossname: what if the doctor isn't happy with doing doctoring? 13:14:47 wossname: it's stupid to make "superior vs inferior" distinctions.. 13:14:59 but it's part of that too 13:15:09 you can't ignore it 13:16:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:16:19 wossname: only collectivists think in terms of 'superior' vs 'inferior' distinctions. the 'inferior' collectivists automatically submit themselves to those who are 'superior' and the 'superior' collectivists expect that. rational people do not heed such distinctions 13:16:36 they only value people for what they can trade with them 13:16:57 Yes, and they eat babies. 13:16:59 hmm... 13:17:00 as you know, one of the first principles of economics is: 'Trade makes people better off' 13:17:14 * tathi appears to have walked in on an interesting conversation ;) 13:17:14 assuming that there's no coercion going on 13:17:31 :) 13:17:32 tathi: would you believe it's about Forth? ;) 13:17:34 people definitely have more respect for a doctor than a street sweeper 13:17:46 you can't say rational people don't make such distinctions 13:18:14 wossname: there aren't that many rational people :( 13:18:16 not that all people make the distinction either.. 13:18:25 i mean, there's a teachers strike where i am now 13:18:38 thin: do I look like I'm stupid? 13:18:43 they get payed a few percent less than teachers in districts outside of the city 13:18:43 thin: don't answer that ;) 13:18:52 but it's enough to stop work for a month 13:18:54 tathi: heheh :P 13:19:10 thin: In a capitalist society trading means wealth. But nothing is said about WHAT you trade. If you pay me $100 to plant trees, that's less valued than if you pay me $1000 to beat wossname. 13:19:35 thin: it seems to be _at least_ as on topic as usual 13:19:44 robert: value isn't attached to the amount of money 13:21:17 suppose I'm willing to pay 1 million to get someone to beat up wossname? Yet I find you are willing to do it for $1000 13:21:45 That's called the "consumer surplus" I just benefited by $999,000 :D 13:22:30 Uh. 13:22:37 That has nothing to do with anything. 13:22:45 I think we should stop discussing :) 13:22:51 Let me define economics: The study of how people take natural resources (materials, people's time & energy, land, etc) and produce the finished product which others buy. 13:22:56 You never reply to MY questions, but to some question you just made up. 13:23:20 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:23:25 some of your questions are misleading and can't actually be answered honestly .. 13:23:50 Not really. 13:23:55 I think it has everything to do with what we're talking about. If I paid Robert $4,000 to put duct tape on thin's mouth, and $8,000 to wossname for hog-tying thin and strapping him to a rolling chair, and another $1000 to Speuler to push him down the street as fast as possible, THAT would be a worthwhile investment! (j/k) 13:24:14 :D 13:24:22 heheh :D 13:24:38 :| 13:24:56 i suppose the market return on wossname's kidneys must be pretty high 13:25:02 because that's a very expensive way of extracting them 13:25:17 nah, you'll only get $1000 bucks for one kidney 13:25:45 seriously 13:25:49 it's about $1070 or so 13:25:50 i believe you 13:26:01 Maybe I missed something. Where did wossname's kidneys come into this? 13:26:14 wossname is interested in making some money 13:26:27 and he's too lazy to find a job ;) 13:26:55 i don't want to learn any skills 13:26:59 or flip any burgers 13:28:44 wossname: don't you have any marketable skills? coding or administering a linux box? 13:29:07 i could sell my body 13:29:12 but we were already discussing that 13:29:27 nvm :D 13:49:31 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 14:02:17 --- nick: wossname -> wossname|terrist 14:04:28 terrorist? 14:09:00 Yes. 14:09:42 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-afk 14:09:44 --- nick: thin -> testingthelength 14:10:10 --- nick: testingthelength -> thin 14:10:52 --- nick: thin -> futhin 14:11:34 --- nick: futhin -> thin 14:38:03 he all.. big quesition for forth masther 14:38:05 master 14:38:11 what is the return stack ?? 14:47:52 it's the stack that forth uses to track which word to call next, etc 14:47:52 Like the return stack in any other language. 14:48:08 It keeps track of where to return to 14:48:18 Once the current word is done. 14:48:45 You also use it as an extra stack, to store some temporary values on. 14:49:25 * thin pets Robert lovingly. 14:50:58 Thanks. 14:51:43 mouarf.. 14:52:05 so it like the next adress to jump on ?? 14:52:19 sorta 14:52:35 you can do something like 14:53:13 : test begin ?true while if r@ drop then repeat ; 14:53:35 and if the IF is triggered, the entire loop is automatically left 14:53:49 i'm really rusty, that code might be wrong :P 14:54:11 * paxl is learning :) 14:54:32 pretty dangerous 14:54:37 to generate crash 14:54:52 on unprotected system 14:54:53 :) 14:55:46 --- join: crc (~crc@ACAB36CE.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 14:55:48 some things will feel a bit hackish to you with forth 14:55:55 but you'll learn its natural forth coding 14:56:12 * paxl is a primary ASM coder 14:56:21 good, that helps :) 14:56:30 you'll be interested in the internals of forth then 14:56:44 so forth is realy easy because i use rpn since .. ugh 10 years :) 14:56:51 18:00 <@thin> you'll be interested in the internals of forth then 14:56:55 http://www.figuk.plus.com/byof.htm 14:56:55 like I said 14:57:11 I want to implant forth on 82/83/83+ calculator :) 14:57:35 http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/ (read the moving forth stuff) 14:58:01 the 2nd link i gave you is the more fundamental one than the first 14:58:03 I'll 14:58:31 I realy realise that forth is more lowlevel than I thinkied 14:58:38 s/thinkied/thinked 14:59:16 I have to go.. I'll back l8ter 14:59:20 it is lowlevel 14:59:28 it's like a macro assembler in a way 14:59:44 it just has blocks of primitives ("macros") and you put them together to do stuff 15:00:16 but it's also highlevel, because it's pretty much infinitely extensible 15:01:19 i.e. it's really easy to build abstractions 15:06:06 re 15:06:33 * Speuler back from mountain stroll 15:06:44 my attraction to forth is because it is lowlevel, but also because it offers an integrated interface - the language, compiler, interface, etc are all part of it 15:07:08 that's why i think a forth os would truly rox because it would save so many layers of abstractions 15:09:54 imagine the gui in forth, the gui graphics api in something similar to postscript, all the applications in forth, etc.. FAST 15:18:41 --- join: tcn (~tcn@tc2-login32.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:26:04 thin: get cracking 15:26:25 I want something like that on my zaurus, so I can carry a forth development environment with me. 15:27:05 actually kc5tja is developing it :P 15:27:26 but i intend to help out as much as i can 15:27:32 --- part: tcn left #forth 15:28:31 --- quit: thin ("bbl") 15:34:49 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s44.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth 15:41:57 Very busy. 15:42:25 Until you showed up, yep. 15:42:53 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 15:42:56 Lots of activity here today actually. Off-topic discussions of course :) 15:43:08 naturally. 15:45:25 Well, I've been keeping busy I dunno' about the rest.. Between beating the commonFORTH-code with a club, and getting all the data for a move/new-property, life ain't been boring. 15:48:04 --- nick: wossname|terrist -> wossname 15:48:40 --- quit: wossname ("=___=") 16:01:36 I have this really bad feeling that it's about time to consider the interactive-level code.. 16:37:29 --- join: bugslayer (~thin@stu04159.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 16:38:56 --- nick: bugslayer -> thin 16:39:08 --- quit: thin (Client Quit) 16:53:44 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 16:54:16 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-245-85-50.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:59:18 --- quit: ramnull ("This isn't Happy Hour!") 17:24:51 --- quit: crc ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.") 17:40:25 * paxl is back 17:40:59 --- join: tathi (~josh@pcp02123722pcs.milfrd01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:41:31 --- join: chillinout (~chillinou@pD9E5949D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 17:42:53 lo 17:43:42 hey 17:45:54 --- nick: chillinout -> chi||out 17:46:52 howdy tathi :-) 17:47:11 hi there ;) 17:47:24 do much forth? 17:49:00 growing slowww 17:53:27 but excellent :-) 17:53:46 Question.. do the main stack of forth is alway in integer ? 17:53:52 /me is a beginner 17:53:55 * paxl is a beginner 17:54:22 yeah, usually there's a separate stack for floating-point numbers 17:54:51 ok.. good 17:55:25 * paxl will probably implant forth on z80 platform. ( ti-82/83/83+ ) 17:55:37 oh, fun. 17:55:55 I've curently make an rpn mode for the 83+/86 17:56:02 true hp rpn.. 17:56:06 wish I'd known about forth back when I was playing with asm on my TI-86, I probably would have written one 17:56:17 nice 17:56:32 so forth will only be an evolution 17:56:47 yup 17:56:54 kc-afk: "...in development..." ? :-) 17:57:09 I think I'll make it to remplace the basic of the calc ( because it will be much faster :) 17:57:12 I'll see 17:57:22 chi||out: what forth implantation are you using ? 17:57:24 I would think it would be faster 17:58:07 tathi: and I can make lib to get direct input and other asm goodies :) so for game develepping that would be better than ti basic.. but harder to code :) 17:58:14 I'll work on this this summer :) 17:58:17 paxl: that's "implement" and "implementation", BTW 17:59:31 bahh taht only english :) 17:59:48 paxl: yeah, a _real_ programming environment _on_ the calculator 17:59:51 * paxl love more z80 asm or C or forth :) 17:59:57 tathi: yeah 18:00:09 tathi: too tired atm to see the fine points ;-) 18:00:23 paxl: enth 18:00:32 because asm coding on calc is too hard ( mistake are always and when you crash.. the mem get erased :) 18:00:54 chi||out: I currently use gforth.. that for learning anyway he is ans Forth 18:01:04 yup yup. that's my major issue with handheld computer-like thingies. 18:01:37 paxl: i do know pax, what does the l stand for? 18:02:10 I wish someone would make a handheld computer with permanent storage, so you wouldn't lose everything if you crashed it. 18:02:19 the ipaq is perfect for a forth os don't you think? 18:02:21 chi||out: no idea 18:02:34 ;-) 18:02:49 tathi: that why i will waste my time to implant it :) 18:03:05 I'll see 18:03:12 now return to forth primer :) 18:03:37 paxl: gforth on debian? 18:03:58 chi||out: IIRC, a7r is working on a forth that will boot on iPAQ. 18:04:22 :-) 18:04:38 chi||out: gforth on Linux from scratch ( I dl the source compile the source and install it :) 18:05:13 paxl: nice. I had a Linux from scratch install for a while. 18:05:37 then I got tired of updating _everything_ by hand and installed Gentoo :) 18:05:54 * tathi has to go find his PPC opcode list, brb 18:05:54 paxl: so you're a linux master? ;-) 18:05:55 tathi: hehe :) 18:06:08 chi||out: not master but .. I'm realy good 18:06:24 two box linked with all services an hacker can dream :) 18:06:44 sshd/httpd/ircd/lpqd/ftpd/ipmasq 18:06:52 http://paxl.no-ip.org 18:06:57 my page is ugly :) 18:07:08 * paxl hate html 18:07:56 paxl: I was a hardcore LFS person...even wrote my own program to replace the SysV init :) 18:08:14 tathi: you *was* :( 18:08:15 was? 18:08:20 (I never quite got the shutdown stuff to work reliably though) 18:08:34 I'm currently _very_ happy with Gentoo 18:08:39 good 18:09:04 If I need to configure something specially, I can, if not, I don't have to worry about it. 18:09:10 tathi: in linux what forth do you use ? 18:09:30 It leaves me more free time to work on a Forth OS to replace Linux ;) 18:09:45 paxl: mostly my own. 18:09:51 lol :) 18:09:56 who it is ? 18:10:01 I have a mostly working colorforth. 18:10:26 tathi: 4thos seriously? 18:10:34 can you define difference bettwenn colorforth and forth ? 18:10:43 but I'm getting tired of funky source code encoding methods, so I spent the last couple of days throwing together a regular forth 18:11:00 chi||out: yup yup. I have a version that boots somewhere, I think. 18:11:15 chi||out: PowerPC (Apple) hardware, though, written in asm. 18:11:31 tathi: viva linux :) 18:11:41 with any 4th implantation :) 18:12:01 tathi: erm to replace linux? what dimension? 18:12:05 paxl: colorforth doesn't use plain text, it uses some kind of encoding that attaches a "color" to each word 18:12:37 the color says what to do with it, execute, define a new word with this name, compile it, whatever. 18:13:01 that way the compiler doesn't have to remember whether it's in "interpret state" or "compile state" or whatever. 18:13:38 basically it does the parsing at edit time, rather than compile time. 18:13:59 ishhh and how you input it on a pc ?? 18:14:02 I think Chuck mainly developed it because of his eyesight; guess it's easier for him to see the colors than the punctuation marks. 18:14:21 I'm not sure how Chuck's input works, he has some funky keyboard stuff. 18:14:36 * paxl prefer ansi forth :) 18:14:39 as now :) 18:14:47 _I_ mainly used the standard forth punctuation to tell my editor to change colors. 18:15:30 chi||out: I just want my own OS. I'm not interested in writing something to compete with Linux. 18:15:47 all functions? 18:16:17 httpd, irc, clients, dbms 18:16:23 etc etc 18:16:33 well, the important ones, anyway. I'd like to not have to reboot into Linux very often. 18:16:37 yeah. 18:16:51 e-mail, web browser, irc 18:17:00 ic. respect :-) 18:17:01 you get a development environment for free ;) 18:17:02 tathi: X :) 18:17:13 tathi: go for it.. 18:17:22 you write it in asm or C ?:) 18:17:24 dunno about X...though the protocol doesn't look all that complicated 18:17:37 ssh definitely though :) 18:17:56 write a small forth in asm that compiles to native code. 18:17:58 tathi: I mean an graphing system nor reealy X. :) 18:18:00 then write the rest in forth 18:18:32 paxl: oh, definitely graphical stuff. Don't know if I'll do a full windowing system though. Maybe just panes (non-overlapping windows). 18:19:50 ppc is risc or misc? 18:20:24 risc 18:20:39 tathi: I have a little quesiton 18:20:44 paxl: shoot 18:20:56 do all word definition are compiled or only interpretted ?? 18:21:09 like : allo 1 + ; 18:21:20 do the code in allo IS compiled .. 18:21:26 or only interpretted ?? 18:21:26 compiled, yes 18:21:52 yoh 18:21:55 ishh 18:22:12 that will be a big big work to get this to work on a little z80 :) 18:22:14 of course, what "compiled" means depends on the forth you're using. 18:22:33 tathi: what I mean by compiled is that in the internal 18:22:38 a common method is just to put a list of addresses 18:22:46 when you use the word it only call the word 18:22:59 and that plain generated asm owrking code :) 18:23:36 so allo would have the address of the "literal" function, then 1, then the address of the "plus" function. 18:24:49 didn't thin give you a couple of articles on implementing a forth yesterday? 18:25:04 I think one of those goes over the different ways forths often work. 18:25:08 tathi: ok.. anyway interpreted code in forth is quite compiled.. since all fuction are calle dprobably plain 18:25:16 if you type 1 2 + 18:25:19 yeah. 18:25:29 the forth will do push 1 push 2 call + 18:25:36 your forth doesn't necessarily have to generate any actual asm code. 18:25:51 yup yup 18:25:58 tathi: It will'nt .. that will be hex code of calling fuction :) 18:25:59 lil 18:26:04 lol 18:26:29 hi a7r 18:26:30 I think this will be a fun project :) 18:26:40 I'd agree 18:26:53 but then, I like writing forths 18:27:09 (I've done it 6 or 7 times so far) 18:27:10 ;) 18:30:11 tathi: in what languagee ? 18:30:20 basic/c/asm ?? :) 18:30:56 some in C, some in asm. 18:31:26 time 18:31:35 cya soon 18:31:36 * paxl love asm :) 18:31:39 l8ter on chi||out 18:32:01 I'm a fool that REALY started to program in his life in ASM 18:32:17 so all high level programming language are .. ugly to me :( 18:32:22 later chi||out 18:32:38 btw if somone mind I made a gtk+/c rpn calc for linux :) 18:32:39 paxl: me too 18:32:41 --- quit: chi||out ("bb have a nice time") 18:32:44 http://paxl.no-ip.org/ :) 18:35:21 paxl: RpNBox? 18:35:52 tathi: Hola 18:36:39 tathi: yeah 18:36:53 tathi: don't laf at my code :) 18:37:01 I use gtk 1.2 18:37:17 paxl: The requested URL /RpNBoX.tar.bz2 was not found on this server. 18:37:25 mouarf 18:37:26 min 18:38:02 paxl: I don't laugh at people's code much. 18:38:11 Well, except my own 18:38:27 miau 18:39:03 like me :) 18:39:17 http://paxlip.no-ip.org:2080/RpNBoX.tar.bz2 just wget this :) 18:39:23 it now work 18:39:32 I forgot to put the file :) 18:40:17 what I found funny in my code that is look much asm code than C code :) ( with while (x++==something) :) 18:43:15 paxl: looks good to me 18:43:38 thank you :) 18:43:48 first positive commant on the calc :) 18:43:57 (( though no negative too :) 18:44:17 I should make a readme though :) 18:45:04 I may change the "CHS" button to say "+/-" though :) 18:45:32 kk :) 18:45:41 you can.. only open source code and make 18:46:02 I can't imagine how I survived without open source software. 18:46:22 tathi: like me 18:46:23 :) 18:46:32 tathi: question.. Vi[m] or emacs ?? 18:46:40 paxl: nooooooo 18:46:41 Vim 18:46:43 paxl: you? 18:46:49 * ianni runs 18:46:56 vim 4 LIFE 18:46:57 :) 18:47:09 emacs, baby. 18:47:16 hehe :) 18:47:17 emacs and vi. 18:47:22 :> 18:47:27 vim is really cool, but i use emacs 18:47:34 i hvaent used vim all that much 18:47:36 btw.. emacs is an os with an editor integrated but vi is better :) 18:47:43 I _did_ use emacs for a while, but whoever wrote it just doesn't think the way I do. 18:47:47 paxl; it could be 500 meg for all i care 18:47:47 * paxl never realy use emac so.. 18:47:53 tathi same reason i dont use vi most of the time 18:47:59 so we both have good reasons 18:48:10 and I got tired of searching through lisp code every time I wanted to customize something. 18:48:14 anyway I dont want a editor flame work 18:48:17 paxl: it could be 3 terabytes and be 800x bigger than any OS 18:48:18 s/work/war 18:48:24 as long as it works decently quick you know... 18:48:29 yeah, I don't care, use whatever editor you want. 18:48:51 * paxl love to see distribution os war.. that _was_ funny :) 18:49:40 I made some in the past when chosing bettween rh/mdk/debian/slack(never used)/lfs/geentoo/freedsb(neverused :) 18:49:42 paxl: seen vigor.sourceforge.net? 18:49:54 tathi: nop.. wait 18:50:23 hehe 18:51:13 lolllllllll 18:51:14 :) 18:51:55 thought you might appreciate that :) 18:52:22 not realy need.. since I don't even use gvim :) 18:52:31 only plain vim text :) 18:52:42 yup 18:53:16 I printed out the UserFriendly strip for that week at work once. 18:53:28 we were in a conference call with our biggest client 18:53:37 looooolllllll and ? :) 18:54:03 my boss started laughing so hard she dropped her phone 18:54:21 lolllllllllllllll :) 18:55:06 bahh I think I'll return to forth learning If I want to startt to write mine this summer :) 18:55:27 tathi: question .. what the underlined word mean in this command ? 18:55:48 create waza 20 cells _allot_ 18:56:13 paxl: OK, I'll stop distracting you then ;) 18:56:40 you know about HERE? returns the current pointer in your memory heap? 18:56:51 allot just adds to that. 18:56:59 reserves some free space 18:57:09 kk 18:57:20 * paxl is reading forthprimer 18:57:26 http://www.xs4all.nl/~thebeez/ForthPrimer/Forth_primer.html 18:59:04 haven't seen that 18:59:59 * tathi learned forth by reading the draft ANSI standard and making things up when he found something he didn't understand or didn't like. 19:01:13 tathi: I'll end my learny by the ansi standard :) 19:01:48 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:02:28 paxl: I can't say it was a method of learning that I'd recommend. :) 19:02:54 OK, I need to get some sleep 19:03:08 TTFN, TTYL, all that 19:03:43 g'night tathi 19:03:52 I'll go in few min too :) 19:03:56 --- quit: tathi (""'night"") 19:29:48 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!) 19:31:28 --- join: ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) joined #forth 19:31:28 --- mode: calvino.freenode.net set +o ChanServ 19:31:28 --- mode: ChanServ set -o kc-afk 19:46:19 --- nick: kc-afk -> kc5tja 19:46:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja 20:24:26 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 20:24:33 --- quit: a7r (Client Quit) 20:25:11 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 20:25:13 hrm. 20:30:10 hmm 20:56:11 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@c-24-62-125-141.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 20:56:11 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 20:57:38 sifbot: 40 0 do i loop 20:57:39 a7r: 20:57:45 er 20:57:51 sifbot: 40 0 do i loop .s 20:57:53 a7r: 40 0 662 20:58:14 sifbot: see loop 20:58:15 a7r: Word not found: see 20:58:45 sifbot: : youknow? .s" No, I don't know." ; youknow? 20:58:47 a7r: Word not found: .s" 20:58:49 hah 20:58:50 whatever 21:07:35 --- join: thin (futhin@dial-273.ocis.net) joined #forth 21:23:40 --- quit: thin ("sleep") 22:24:53 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.139) joined #forth 22:25:11 hi 22:25:17 re 22:30:42 * Serg_Penguin trashed XP and now trying to guess his former IP 22:31:20 bag gambling - the bet is what one my neighbour won't see Inet on startup 22:32:59 eh 22:34:22 --- join: serg_guessed (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 22:34:45 hey, i looked up old firewall logs and found my IP :) 22:35:03 please kick Serg_Penguin :) 22:35:27 kick hard so i can change nick :)) 22:42:02 --- quit: sifbot (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:42:53 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:44:57 Heh 22:45:05 * kc5tja is going to go... 22:46:08 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 23:24:46 --- quit: serg_guessed () 23:42:18 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth 23:43:45 re 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.05.29