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04:58:25 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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06:20:57 <Speuler> bashforth seems to get a new life
06:22:05 <Speuler> the maker of libforth considers to use it as the system for generating a forth on a target platform :)
06:22:56 <Speuler> i figure if he proceeds with his plan, i'll collaborate
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10:09:58 <thin> wow
10:10:06 <thin> i _just_ got on
10:10:08 <thin> :P
10:10:13 <thin> or roughly 10 minutes ago
10:11:04 <kc5tja> heh
10:16:32 <a7r_> hey
10:17:03 <a7r_> using WinXP makes me weap for the future of humanity.
10:18:18 <kc5tja> a7r_: Well, when it is finally released, invest in an AmigaOne with AmigaOS 4.  You'll never go back again.
10:20:00 <a7r_> kc5tja: yeah, I'll be interested in seeing it
10:20:24 <a7r_> I've got OS X and OpenBSD on everything now, except this one WinXP box I got for microcontroller development.
10:21:25 <a7r_> I've never used Windows before, for work.. and I dislike it even more after using it for 8 hours.
10:21:39 * kc5tja nods
10:21:56 <kc5tja> When properly installed with a **LOT** of after-market add-ons, it becomes quite tolerable.
10:22:05 <kc5tja> But you need to invest in a lot of after-market add-ons.
10:22:33 <a7r_> I just see windows open, with garbage in them, because it hasn't taken the time to redraw.. there are all these different graphical styles all over the
10:22:36 <a7r_> place..
10:22:52 <a7r_> tons of different grades of icons, icons that don't refresh.  It feels like a unpolished piece of shit.
10:23:32 <kc5tja> Ahh
10:23:33 <kc5tja> Yeah
10:23:44 <kc5tja> That has to do with the Win32 single-queue messaging structure.
10:23:53 <kc5tja> Thankfully, AmigaOS doesn't really suffer from that.
10:24:00 <kc5tja> It's inherently multi-queue.
10:24:26 <kc5tja> In fact, it took a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time before people started employing multi-threading on AmigaOS because, well, it's not really needed when a single task can manage an infinite number of message queues.
10:24:29 <kc5tja> (for most apps)
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11:38:24 <ramnull> What's new?
11:39:23 <kc5tja> Registering domains for my company.
11:39:58 <ramnull> kc5tja: Run your own business?
11:43:30 <kc5tja> Yes.
11:43:34 <kc5tja> Start-up.
11:43:56 <ramnull> What do you do?
11:44:04 <kc5tja> Name it.
11:44:26 <ramnull> kc5tja: Factory automation?
11:44:57 <kc5tja> I'm a computer consultant that specializes in website design, small- to medium-scale graphics arts, network engineering, custom software design/engineering, OS installation/consulting, et. al.
11:45:13 <kc5tja> I'm not specialized in that, but I know enough that I can be of some service, I'm sure.
11:45:17 <ramnull> Ah. A jack of all trades.
11:45:35 <kc5tja> And I can learn whatever domain-specific knowledge I need as I need it.
11:46:42 <ramnull> I'm considering designing a high power logic board using PLCs and a stack processor for factory automation.
11:48:06 <thin> ramnull: do you know of any PLCs that are programmable in forth ?
11:48:20 <thin> especially the big PLCs?
11:48:31 <thin> most of them seem to have ugly visual step-ladder programming
11:49:12 <ramnull> thin: No. I was gonna use a stack processor(s) as the "brains" controlling the PLCs.
11:50:25 <ramnull> i.e. You can set the PLCs to throw switches automatically under some circumstances, or wait for direction from the main stack processor under others.
11:50:27 <thin> part of the problem lies in the name:  programmable logic controller :P
11:50:41 <thin> what is programmable logic? ;)
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11:52:35 <ramnull> Yeah. But a PLC/"Stacker" combo board would be so much cheaper and more flexible than plugging in a high level server for such things. Not to mention more reliable.
11:53:13 <kc5tja> Just make sure you shield that thing well.  REALLY well.
11:53:25 <kc5tja> Factories have a huge amount of EMI.
11:54:20 <ramnull> kc5tja: Of course, that's one reason why I'm using the combo that I am. PLCs have been used in factories for years now.
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11:54:30 <ramnull> Thier reliability is proven.
11:55:25 <ramnull> Even if the main processor takes a dump, the PLCs can still keep handling the critical functions until maintenance shows up for repairs.
11:55:52 <kc5tja> Yeah, because it's a relay-driven digital computer.
11:56:06 <kc5tja> See, what you need to do now is make a pure relay stack processor... :D
11:56:45 <thin> the PLCs that i've seen aren't programmable in an accessible language, the client forces you to program in a visual step-ladder logic, and it really limits your flexibility, but supposedly they do this so that the software reliability is assured
11:56:46 <ramnull> kc5tja: Dont tempt me. I liable to actually do something crazy like that. Heh.
11:57:54 <thin> ramnull: have you had any exposures to PLCs?  do you know of any that can actually be programmed in at least a procedural language?
11:58:03 <ramnull> thin: True. It can be a PITA, but sometimes one just has to bite the bullet and do the tedious stuff if they want a product they can take pride in.
11:58:31 <thin> eh? why would i take pride in coding in step-ladder logic?
11:58:37 <ramnull> thin: I beleive AMD is working on one.
11:59:05 <ramnull> thin: I would take pride in building something that can have the shit beat out of it, and still keep on working.
11:59:45 <thin> well considering AMD has no experience in making a PLC and its target market isn't the industrial side, I would doubt that their PLC is gonna be any good
12:00:26 <ramnull> thin: Actually, AMD started in the PLC arena. If I remember correctly, the AMD509 was thier original PLC.
12:00:34 <thin> ramnull: are you talking about software or hardware?  I don't have to deal with any hardware when coding the PLC
12:01:46 <ramnull> thin: Both. One needs to take a "wholistic" approach to things like this. ;-p
12:02:13 <thin> ramnull: name the biggest/most industrial PLC manufacturer you know of
12:02:25 <ramnull> Hmmmm....
12:02:48 <ramnull> Good question...theres a ton of companies that make em.
12:02:52 <thin> I'm not exactly familiar with the companies out there.  But Siemens is probably the biggest/most industrial
12:03:28 <ramnull> I'm studying my brains out on the subject.
12:03:31 <a7r_> hrm, relay controls?  fear.
12:03:33 <thin> ramnull: I was only testing your knowledge of PLCs :P
12:04:02 <thin> but I'm not that qualified either, so the test is pretty much moot :P
12:04:16 <ramnull> thin: I'm doing partly because I find it really interesting, and partly because of the challenge.
12:04:34 <ramnull> I might not even get past the design stage.
12:04:56 <thin> uh.. maybe you should look at some _actual_ PLCs first..
12:05:03 <thin> maybe program one
12:05:23 <thin> they're quite a bit different
12:05:33 <thin> PLCs != microcontrollers
12:05:41 <thin> microcontrollers often have a procedural language available to code them
12:05:52 <thin> but PLCs don't seem to give you that option at all
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12:06:34 <thin> if you know of or find out about any PLCs that allow you to code it in a procedural language, or to put your own language ontop of the "os" let me know :)
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12:07:03 * ramnull is looking at Advantech Automation Corps. PLCs right now.
12:07:05 <Speuler> ah. talking ladder diagrams ?
12:07:22 <thin> yeah
12:07:47 <Speuler> been repairing plcs a while ago
12:07:54 <Speuler> gould
12:08:27 <Speuler> but those are microcontroller based
12:08:57 <ramnull> thin: I dont think there is a PLC that supports that type of programming.
12:09:08 <Speuler> oh, those gould ones did
12:09:18 <thin> because they're microcontrollers
12:09:53 <ramnull> Speuler: Well, I was considering coupling the PLCs with a stack processor on a logic board.
12:10:11 <Speuler> don't think that company is the biggest, likey not, gould/modicon
12:10:13 <thin> from what little I know of PLCs and microcontrollers, there is a strong distinction between the two.  PLCs are for industrial applications and ABSOLUTELY must never fail.  microcontrollers are for buildings and other things where reliability isn't as important
12:11:09 <Speuler> those plc where microprocessor based, but also interpreter for those schematic programs, and lots if i/o
12:11:13 <ramnull> thin: That's the idea. The PLCs can still keep running even if the main processor is dead.
12:11:44 <Speuler> backplane-based, to stack i/o modules
12:12:35 <ramnull> Speuler: What did you use to program them?
12:12:38 <Speuler> if the cpu was dead, so was the plc. cpu was required for the events
12:12:43 <Speuler> ladder diagrams
12:12:49 <Speuler> graphic editor on-board
12:13:24 <Speuler> basically, simulated relays
12:13:31 * kc5tja looked at ladder diagrams a while ago, and I couldn't make heads or tails out of them at all.
12:13:38 <ramnull> Dont suppose one could rig a VHDL type "compiler" instead of a ladder diagram?
12:13:45 <kc5tja> That is just the *weirdest* way to program a device I've ever seen.
12:14:16 <Speuler> was allright for the techs using them instead of wired stacks of relays
12:16:05 <ramnull> Speuler: Well, my idea has the main processor wired to a bunch of PLCs. Hence if the main processor dies, the PLCs could still maintain critical functions until the repair guy shows up.
12:16:45 <Speuler> depends on which cpu dies
12:17:25 <Speuler> what would be the main cpu's job ?
12:19:00 <ramnull> Speuler: Monitoring, Turning PLCs on and off, any high level functions the PLCs werent designed for.
12:19:21 <Speuler> but, if your main cpu dies ?
12:19:29 <ramnull> Speuler: Communication over a network.
12:20:38 <ramnull> Speuler: Then the PLCs could turn off (or on) safety switches X, Y, and Z. etc....
12:21:54 <ramnull> Speuler: Just maintain a status line between the CPU and the PLCs. If it's high, the CPU is there, if it's low the CPU isnt there.
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12:24:43 <ramnull> Did I say something dumb?
12:25:25 <ramnull> Like I said, I'm still reading all about it.
12:26:22 * kc5tja is still hacking away on his company's website and stuff.
12:26:51 <ramnull> kc5tja: You ever do any Mac programming?
12:27:09 <kc5tja> Nope.
12:27:22 <kc5tja> But I might have to as a result of my company.
12:27:33 <kc5tja> Depends on customer demand.
12:28:16 <ramnull> kc5tja: I was reading the reviews over at rixstep.org, and it seems like one could make a decent chunk of change by writing a good jail application for OS X.
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12:29:12 <ramnull> errr.... rixstep.com
12:30:12 <kc5tja> "Jail" application?
12:31:00 <kc5tja> Remember too that I'm not a software development house per se; I'm a contractor.  I don't write and market software for myself; only for others.
12:31:05 <ramnull> kc5tja: Chroot Jail. So any application installed that asks for admin priveledges gets stuck in the Chroot jail.
12:31:11 <kc5tja> I don't have the time or the finances to support a software design house.
12:31:21 * ramnull nods
12:32:43 <kc5tja> Ahh
12:33:12 <ramnull> kc5tja: Know what I mean?
12:33:48 <ramnull> I'm getting the impression that Mac developers arent the sharpest knives in the drawer.
12:34:09 <ramnull> Hence a Jail app might be worthwile.
12:36:19 <ramnull> bbl. Gotta go code.
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12:37:25 <kc5tja> Mac developers are smarter than you think.
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12:41:51 <thin> lost internet
12:42:37 <thin> but it has been found and I am back :P
12:43:23 <kc5tja> heh
12:45:48 <ianni> better than Windows developers... that's for damn sure
12:46:08 <ianni> and most probably a lot better than 99.9% of the GNU kids... they can hold a job! :)
12:46:24 * ianni ducs
12:46:26 <ianni> +k
12:46:40 <kc5tja> Damn straight.
12:46:55 <kc5tja> And they actually have some inkling of a clue as to how to make a user interface, too.
12:47:14 <kc5tja> And I'm NOT kidding.
12:49:33 <thin> does that mean they make better interfaces with web-based applications?
12:49:58 <kc5tja> I've found that to be generally the case, yes.
12:50:28 <kc5tja> With few minor issues, I find Apple, Inc.'s website to be one of the best constructed websites I've ever seen.
12:50:35 <kc5tja> (At least it was as of last year)
12:55:24 * thin is busy spamming himself
12:56:45 <thin> a proliferating mess of open web browser windows, all of them with useful information and more links..  neverending
13:00:31 <kc5tja> Hehe
13:00:34 <kc5tja> The matrix has you...
13:03:42 <ianni> hehehe
13:03:57 <ianni> I don't really like apple's web stuff... at all
13:04:04 <ianni> but their website is great, IMO
13:04:13 <ianni> I use J2EE for web stuff...
13:04:17 <ianni> and i'd also consider using perl
13:04:35 <ianni> and MAYBE php.. but probably not as I have enough practice in j2ee
13:07:51 <kc5tja> Well, Java has absolutely zero to do with user interface, though.
13:07:54 <kc5tja> That's all infrastructure.
13:08:11 <kc5tja> I'm talking about user interface design concepts.
13:09:51 <thin> i feel dirty.  i just installed mysql, dbi, and activeperl.  fortunately it's not my computer :D
13:11:34 <kc5tja> Heh
13:13:09 <thin> the setup on the computers in the lab at the college is awesome.  when you reboot, it restores everything back to pristine condition.  there's no restrictions on installing stuff (for the most part) so it's nice to have that freedom
13:14:03 <kc5tja> Our college is like  that too.
13:14:12 <kc5tja> The company representative who isntalled the software asked someone to break it.
13:14:19 <kc5tja> So the lab tech installed BSD, then rebooted.  ;D
13:14:39 <kc5tja> The sales rep was annoyed, to say the least.  :D
13:14:50 <thin> heheh!
13:15:16 <thin> well i don't think i could install BSD on here heh
13:15:32 <kc5tja> People might look at you funny.  :)
13:15:34 <thin> could try installing QNX ;)
13:16:13 <thin> QNX has two install options, one of which makes a virtual partition in the windows partition
13:16:30 * kc5tja nods
13:18:20 <kc5tja> WHOA, time's flying.  I have 4 hours until aikido, and I need to get my business plan put together some more...
13:18:23 <kc5tja> afk
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13:28:47 <thin> bbl
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14:19:36 <Robert> Hi yh
14:19:37 <Robert> er
14:19:38 <Robert> thin
14:19:45 <thin> hi yh!
14:19:50 <thin> yh: do you code forth?
14:20:01 <thin> heheh >:D
14:20:57 <thin> hi robert
14:21:00 <thin> how goes it
14:21:21 <Robert> Well.. my program doesn't want to work!
14:21:43 <Robert> The rotating...thing...is looking like it's changing shape.
14:22:12 <Robert> But only when I rotate in x,y AND z direction, not when I rotate in just one direction.
14:23:04 <thin> why shouldn't it change shape when you rotate it in the z direction?
14:23:20 <thin> is it a perfect sphere or something?
14:24:52 <Robert> No, just two squares.
14:25:16 <Robert> Connected to each other, with a 90 deg angle between them.
14:25:32 <Robert> Two sides of a cube.
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14:28:15 <Robert> Hi tcn
14:30:35 <tcn> hey
14:33:58 <thin> squares or cubes?
14:34:19 <tcn> cubes
14:34:26 <tcn> definitely cubes
14:35:52 <thin> :)
14:36:14 <thin> the question was for robert, heh
14:37:04 <Robert> Squares.
14:37:14 <Robert> Very flat objects ;)
14:41:42 <thin> so moving them the z direction would change how you percieve the shape, don't you think?
14:41:53 <thin> s/moving/rotating
14:46:11 <Robert> Of course.
14:46:42 <Robert> But.. uhm... if you've ever seen a cube in your life, you'd see this one is NOT bug-free :)
14:48:02 <thin> now you are calling your square a cube?  you weirdo
14:53:07 <Robert> Stop trolling me.
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14:55:06 <a7r> hey
14:55:25 <tcn> hello
14:56:11 <thin> troll: I'm trolling you? lies!
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15:06:05 <thin> Robert: Let me know if you make up your mind on whether it is a square or cube.
15:09:40 <Robert> Wohoo!
15:09:44 <Robert> I rock! Now it works.
15:09:53 <Robert> I'm so terribly, terribly stupid.
15:10:16 <Robert> It's 1/3 of an (empty) cube, i.e. 2 squares.
15:11:23 <thin> That's what I told you.
15:21:15 <a7r> hrm, I need an atmel assembler, so I can get rid of this shitty windows interface.
15:23:04 <Robert> AVR studio? :)
15:23:14 <a7r> yeah. ;)
15:23:24 <Robert> I use it because od the transfer tools and debugger.
15:23:30 <a7r> it's not so much the studio that sucks, as the having to be tethered to Windows
15:23:39 <Robert> IIRC, there are plenty of free _assemblers_ for AVR.
15:23:49 <a7r> yeah, there are.. I just need to get my environment up.
15:23:51 <Robert> But not so many debuggers/transfer programs.
15:23:55 <a7r> what're you doing w/ the AVR?
15:24:00 <Robert> Playing. :)
15:24:05 <Robert> http://robert.zizi.org/mtv.html
15:24:18 <Robert> Writing a little VM. Coding a Forth for it, too :)
15:24:26 <a7r> cool
15:24:32 <a7r> are you using an STK500?
15:24:55 <Robert> Maybe I'll even base next year's big school project on it, to make my teachers aware of Forth's power.. 
15:24:57 <Robert> Yeah.
15:25:12 <a7r> werd, I just picked one up myself.
15:33:23 <Robert> Hehe. I think it's nice.
15:33:35 <Robert> External Flash memory and all..
15:33:46 <a7r> yeah
15:33:59 <a7r> I had never programmed a microcontroller until I picked it up.
15:34:21 <Robert> Niether had I.
15:34:38 <Robert> neither
15:35:07 <Robert> Damn, if only English spelling could be like Forth.. with at least traces of logic!
15:38:01 <thin> only constructed languages can be logical
15:39:17 <Robert> All language are constructed :P
15:39:20 <Robert> +s
15:42:01 <thin> there's a difference between construction and evolution :P
15:42:12 <Robert> Bah..
15:52:30 <onetom> Robert: what 4th do u use 2 run mtv/f.f ?
15:53:40 <onetom> isforth?
15:53:57 <Robert> Yeah.
15:54:36 <Robert> But please, check mtvfc instead :P
15:54:39 <Robert> It's much better.
15:54:51 <onetom> k
15:55:16 <Speuler> Robert: http://www.langmaker.com/db/mdl_fith.htm
15:55:43 <Robert> onetom: Ooops! I haven't uploaded it :)
15:55:47 * Robert uploads.
15:55:59 <Speuler> http://www.langmaker.com/fith.htm
15:56:01 <onetom> k
15:57:14 <Robert> onetom: Check http://robert.zizi.org/pub/projects/mtv/mtv-030529.tgz
15:58:25 <Robert> Speuler: Insane :)
15:59:22 <Speuler> "If you are interested in Fith, you might also be interested in Forth, a computer language that also uses a LIFO grammar."
16:03:00 <thin> what would the next generation be called? Sith?  :P
16:04:14 <onetom> Robert: : kernel-drop   drop dup over swap ;  ????
16:04:24 <onetom> ab   drop
16:04:30 <onetom> a    dup
16:04:39 <onetom> aa   over
16:04:47 <onetom> aaa  swap ?
16:04:48 <onetom> aaa
16:05:02 <Robert> Ah, I just tar:ed my current code.
16:05:08 <onetom> :)
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16:05:09 <Robert> That's just some testing code.
16:05:11 <onetom> ok
16:05:14 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
16:05:18 <Robert> drio dup over swap -> opcodes 0,1,2,3 :)
16:05:20 <Speuler> hi TBW
16:05:22 <Robert> Hi TheBlueWizard 
16:05:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Speuler
16:05:30 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
16:06:24 <onetom> Robert: lolll
16:08:47 <Speuler> munich town council dunps microsoft, decided to install linux on their 14000 machines 
16:09:48 <Speuler> decision was made definitive today
16:09:57 <Robert> Neat.
16:10:19 <Robert> 14000 fewer licenses... always something.
16:10:40 <Speuler> more important may be the signal effect
16:10:50 <Speuler> one has to be first
16:11:02 <Speuler> butbut nobody wants it to be
16:11:07 <Robert> Yes... but if something goes wrong.. :)
16:11:42 <Speuler> will be interesting to follow their progress a bit
16:12:51 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...I suspect the progress will be a bit bumpy at first, then settle down
16:13:24 <Speuler> microsoft underbid the ibm offer
16:13:33 <Speuler> but to no effect
16:13:40 <Robert> Hah.
16:15:37 <thin> ibm is doing the linux installing ??
16:15:41 <TheBlueWizard> haha...seems IBM finally got the sales ptch coming together...and I also heard that laptops preloaded with Linux are selling off the stovetops in Thailand
16:16:14 <Speuler> thin: looks like it
16:16:26 <thin> interesting :P
16:16:37 <thin> now lets convince them to start using Forth ;)
16:16:49 <thin> who wants to be richard stallman ?
16:16:49 <thin> :P
16:16:59 <Speuler> they would need to re-implement some apps
16:17:07 <Robert> Right... laptops with colorforth preinstalled. :D
16:17:08 <thin> ETA: 2 seconds
16:19:49 <TheBlueWizard> thin: Charles Moore is the Richard Stallman of Forth :D
16:20:21 <kc5tja> Heheh
16:20:55 <TheBlueWizard> hiya kc5tja
16:21:00 <kc5tja> back from running some errands.
16:22:14 <Robert> Hi
16:22:39 <Speuler> http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=zone.msn.com
16:23:32 <Speuler> FreeBSD  	 Microsoft-IIS/5.0  	 15-May-2003  	 207.46.203.12  	 Microsoft Corp
16:23:32 <Speuler> Windows 2000 	Microsoft-IIS/5.0 	14-May-2003 	207.46.203.12 	 Microsoft Corp
16:23:32 <Speuler> FreeBSD 	Microsoft-IIS/5.0 	2-May-2003 	207.46.203.12 	 Microsoft Corp
16:24:01 <Speuler> was running w2000 for a day, then returned to bsd ...
16:24:09 <Speuler> *grin*
16:24:11 <Robert> Heh
16:24:18 * kc5tja brought his Amiga 500 out of storage too.  :)
16:24:28 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
16:24:30 <Robert> Ah, neat..
16:25:04 <kc5tja> If nothing else, I can write FS/Forth:68K for it.  :)
16:26:16 <Speuler> 8 political parties opted for linux, 1 for microsoft !
16:26:19 <TheBlueWizard> cool...should be easy, as Amiga has good (if old) dev tools out there already
16:29:17 <kc5tja> Speuler: Great news.
16:29:57 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: Yup.  All I need is an assembler (a68k), linker (blink), and editor.  It's the editor that will get me, but I intend on installing VIM for AmigaOS.
16:30:04 <Speuler> mayor says "decision is not about who to furnish the software, but about setting the rails for the future" ...
16:31:13 <Speuler> he called it "an axiomatic decision" or "decision of principle"
16:31:22 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....interesting quote....very true!  it is only right to have manufacturers stop being beholden to M$
16:31:34 <kc5tja> Yup.
16:32:06 <kc5tja> The AmigaOne hardware even has Linux ported to it, which Amiga, Inc. encourages.  :)  (Of course, they'll also push AmigaOS 4 for it as well, once it's fully ported.  Progress is good, from what I understand.)
16:33:02 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: um, I thought you created your own version of editor which reputedly mixes the best of vim and emacs
16:33:44 <Speuler> ballmer has interrupted his holidays, came to munich to talk to mayor with respect to that deal
16:34:00 <kc5tja> TheBlueWizard: That editor is written in Forth, it's a block editor, and requires a Forth environment to run.
16:34:04 <Speuler> i guess that's when muenchen decided to go for linux :)
16:34:31 <kc5tja> Since the Amiga doesn't have a Forth on it (I could download JForth, but ... well, that'd take all the fun out of it!), I have to use VIM.
16:34:39 <Speuler> aforth ?
16:34:45 <kc5tja> JForth
16:35:10 <Speuler> hmm. haven't got my amiga floppies at hand
16:36:24 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja: I see...hmm....chicken-n-egg situation...a PITA to get this set up
16:36:41 <Speuler> a500, 512 mb ram, 80 gb scsi :)
16:36:50 <Speuler> ahem
16:36:55 <Speuler> kb
16:37:06 <Speuler> so used to mb nowadays ...
16:37:44 <kc5tja> 512MB?
16:37:48 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...yeah...um...80 gb hd, eh?  not bad for a500
16:37:48 <kc5tja> :)
16:38:14 <kc5tja> Amiga 500, 3MB of RAM, 120MB SCSI; it can handle 4GB though, I believe.
16:38:19 <Speuler> again, 2^10 too big
16:38:33 <Speuler> downscale both by factor 1024 :)
16:39:01 <kc5tja> Heheh :)
16:39:32 <Speuler> did i mention the 4096 bit color depth :)
16:40:00 <TheBlueWizard> that's is a given ;)
16:40:07 <Speuler> and the 8 gigahertz cpu ...
16:40:24 <TheBlueWizard> that too :D
16:44:12 <kc5tja> For the ham radio operators here, Class X-3 solar flare happening.
16:45:15 <Speuler> skip dead ?
16:46:03 <kc5tja> I have no idea.
16:46:15 <kc5tja> But I am wondering if there is a lot of 10m and 6m activity.
16:47:08 <Speuler> what's 6 ? thought there are no hams between 10 and 2 m ?
16:47:39 <Speuler> vhf 50 mhz allocated to amateur radio ?
16:47:51 <a7r> haha
16:50:13 <Speuler> anyone read NY times today ?
16:51:11 <Speuler> someone alleges there was an articel about "microsoft intending to buy suse stock"
17:03:35 --- join: paxl (paxl@modemcable110.168-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth
17:03:45 <TheBlueWizard> hiya paxl
17:03:50 <paxl> heya TheBlueWizard 
17:04:07 <paxl> do forth is Interpretted or compiled ??
17:04:22 <Speuler> it is compreted
17:04:37 * TheBlueWizard laughs
17:04:48 <TheBlueWizard> that's a good way of putting it
17:05:12 <paxl> TheBlueWizard: don't lought.. I want to implant it on Ti calculator :)
17:05:20 * paxl program z80 asm :)
17:05:40 <paxl> anyway that wound'nt be real hard
17:05:44 <paxl> since I know RPL 
17:05:46 <paxl> from HP
17:06:49 <TheBlueWizard> nope, not hard...just that z80 is a bit tight with respect to 16 bit data trafficking, you would want to think through what registers to dedicate
17:07:33 <paxl> TheBlueWizard: that more hard than this.. since I want to do all this IN the calc
17:07:39 <paxl> thee parser are fun to do :)
17:08:46 * TheBlueWizard has a book "Threaded Interpretive Languages" by Loegliger (a BYTE book) that discusses how to implement a Forth-like system on a z80 machine
17:09:12 * paxl note the title :)
17:10:28 <TheBlueWizard> um...what "calc"?
17:11:03 <paxl> ti-83+/SE in apps
17:11:20 <paxl> and probably a port in Program on 82/83/85/86
17:11:28 <paxl> what calc do you own ?
17:12:14 <thin> what calc do you think i own?  hp48g obviously!
17:12:16 <thin> :P
17:12:19 <TheBlueWizard> I only have a HP 15C
17:12:46 <paxl> hey.. I have 82/83+/86/v200/48g/49g/11c/32sII
17:12:46 <paxl> :)
17:12:52 <thin> i want a stack-based calculator that's smaller than the hp48g
17:13:09 <kc5tja> thin: Get the HP48 emulator for PalmOS...  :)
17:13:10 <paxl> thin: just get an 32sII
17:13:10 <thin> i find rpn is the fastest way to run a calculator
17:13:16 <paxl> mee too
17:13:37 <thin> yeah if i see a 32s somewhere, i'm buying it
17:13:46 <paxl> I made a app on 83+ and 86 to tranform the therse calc in RPN :)
17:13:56 <paxl> work as if it was an 4 stage rpn calc
17:14:03 <thin> kc5tja: yeah i've got the emulator for the computer, but it's a bit awkward to use
17:14:08 <paxl> I also made a rpn calc for linux :)
17:14:30 <paxl> ( that could cross compile to bloz without hassel :)
17:15:12 <thin> i made an rpn calc in forth
17:15:18 <thin> but i didn't need to save the code ;)
17:15:21 <thin> :P
17:15:24 * paxl will probably implat Rpl from hp4[x]g
17:15:31 <paxl> s/implat/implant
17:15:37 <thin> i haven't learned RPL
17:15:48 <paxl> that Realy the same than forth
17:15:58 <paxl> is there an way to develop forth on linux ?
17:17:08 <thin> sure
17:17:18 <thin> there's quite a few forth implementations for linux
17:17:30 <paxl> thin: what is the 'best'
17:18:15 <thin> the 'best' is isforth, but it is fairly new and is still in development.  http://isforth.clss.net    the most common forth used in linux is probably gforth.
17:18:22 <thin> or maybe bigforth
17:18:45 <thin> i don't know the urls for those two forths off the top of my head
17:19:06 <paxl> kk
17:20:41 <TheBlueWizard> if you're using Debian GNU/Linux, just apt-get gforth...dunno if it got a bigforth ass well
17:22:08 <paxl> I'm using linux from scratch so.. :)
17:23:35 <thin> do you have slackware's rpm2tar ? :D
17:23:44 <thin> really nifty to have i thought
17:24:01 <thin> nevermind
17:24:09 <thin> you'd only need that for a package management system..
17:24:52 <TheBlueWizard> paxl: I am pretty sure taygeta.com has some sample source code for Forth written in z80
17:26:28 <paxl> I want anyway to make my solutio...
17:26:33 <paxl> not get it from other
17:26:52 <paxl> I should only get a GOOD forth tutorial to learn it befor implant it :)
17:27:23 <TheBlueWizard> ah...ok, so you want to know how Forth is implemented, right?
17:27:32 <TheBlueWizard> or just learn Forth?
17:28:37 <paxl> learn forth :)
17:29:32 <thin> paxl: check out http://forth.bespin.org
17:30:26 <thin> under the articles section, you'll also find some articles for building your own forth.   that might come in handy for "implanting"
17:31:10 <thin> oops
17:31:11 <thin> i lied
17:31:17 <ianni> liar!
17:31:19 <TheBlueWizard> there are several good Forth tutorials out there...also check out taygeta.com...it has a lot of goodies
17:31:46 <thin> there's no build your own forth links on that site :(
17:31:54 <Speuler> paxl: can you read bash scripts ?
17:32:13 <paxl> Speuler: without any hassel.. I know bash ( not master but I know it :)
17:32:24 <Speuler> paxl: i've written a forth in bash
17:33:00 <paxl> Speuler: where it is ?
17:33:10 <Speuler> www.forthfreak.net
17:34:41 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye
17:34:54 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
17:38:41 <paxl> what is the difference bettween pforth and forth ?
17:39:01 <Speuler> forth is the generic name, pforth one implementation
17:39:23 <paxl> kk
17:56:59 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:59:19 --- quit: thin ("brb")
18:00:17 <kc5tja> Well, I had to reseat the Kickstart ROMs.
18:00:30 <kc5tja> The Amiga started crashing after it got warmed up a bit.
18:00:33 <kc5tja> But it's working fine now.
18:02:52 --- join: thin (~thin@stu01110.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth
18:02:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
18:16:12 <paxl> ugh... is there a fucntion to print entier stack without destroying it ??
18:16:18 <Speuler> .s
18:17:21 <paxl> kk thx
18:20:41 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-aikido
18:27:15 --- nick: thin -> th-gunkata
18:27:34 <th-gunkata> ;)
18:27:43 --- nick: th-gunkata -> thin
19:34:09 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
19:35:47 * TreyB has a few choice words for Hitachi Global Storage Technologies, Inc.
19:36:17 <thin> don't like them?
19:36:45 <TreyB> I sent a disk back for warranty repair and the replacement showed up DOA.
19:37:51 <thin> ouch
19:38:32 <thin> considering you had to spend money to mail it and the time it took for the turnaround... you better get an extra free hdd from them :P
19:39:45 <Robert> Heh. :)
19:39:47 <Robert> Hi TreyB 
19:40:26 <TreyB> thin: I wish.  They should at least cover the shipping this time.
19:40:35 <TreyB> Howdy 
19:40:46 <TreyB> ... Robert.
19:42:37 <thin> what kind of disk is it?
19:43:01 * thin is loyal to fujistu hdds.
19:43:04 <thin> cheap and the most reliable hdds i've experienced..
19:43:17 <thin> i have 3 fujistu hdds
19:43:23 <thin> two of which are pretty old
19:43:32 <thin> 1 gig, 6 gig, 40 gig
19:45:36 <TreyB> 60GB Deskstar.  I use it as part of a 4 drive RAID5 array.
19:46:06 * TreyB bookmarks the tech support page so he can call them tomorrow morning.
20:09:30 --- join: Sonarman (~matt@adsl-64-160-165-190.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
21:08:23 --- quit: TreyB ()
21:15:07 <thin> yay!!!!!!!!!!
21:15:51 <Sonarman> yeah!!! this is so awesome!
21:16:01 <thin> absolutely!
21:16:43 <thin> wooo hoo!!!!
21:16:49 <thin> don't you feel naked!!!
21:21:35 <Sonarman> well actually now that you mention it, i do
21:22:25 <thin> Forth is just an acronym for: Real Nudist Coders
21:22:28 <Sonarman> and thanks to the miracle of modern JIT compilers, i barely even noticed it!
21:23:05 <Sonarman> what if you're a fake nudist coder?  like me, a result of metaprogramming
21:23:55 <Sonarman> ah, now i understand the phrase, "Go FORTH and multiply"
21:24:03 <thin> even better! you're nude and don't even know it!
21:24:46 <thin> Ahh, yes, I remember the Forth Bible fondly
21:24:56 <thin> but no "fondling" the people!
21:25:28 <Sonarman> lots-testosterone lots-estrogen * variable baby baby !
21:26:19 <Sonarman> alas, i am not competent enough to understand the "fondling" joke, so would you mind explaing it to me?
21:26:55 <thin> "fondly" became "fondling" in this delusional self
21:27:12 <Sonarman> ah!
21:28:42 <Sonarman> i'll record that kind of joke in my joke parsing syntax game tree (i just throw around words like those, while my knowledge is little)
21:29:10 <Sonarman> on the other hand, i rarely throw an exception
21:30:02 <thin> knowledge can only be groked when knowledge is insane
21:30:57 <Sonarman> you should add that to boogle.com
21:32:22 <thin> i've got better quotes, how dare i forget them!
21:34:01 <Sonarman> looks like you are using swap space on a corrupted filesystem
21:35:28 --- quit: sifbot (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:35:54 <thin> sonarman: got a forth coding project ?
21:40:20 <Sonarman> not really.  i need to re-read some documentation (read: finally read some documentation, since my only forth "Education" was *almost* finsishing a couple forth tutorials a while ago).  have any ideas for a project?  i've got the usual open-source unix forths, plus open-firmware.  maybe i can make something that i can boot into from open-firmware :)
21:42:02 <Sonarman> by the way, what's your opinion on, say, using Forth as the lowest-level language (besides assembly) (instead of C) for a Smalltalk-like operating system/environment?
21:51:35 <thin> i think it would be pretty flexible & fairly easy to do something like that..
21:52:30 <thin> plus such an operating system would be pretty portable..  because adapting a forth implementation to run the OS would be trivial
22:00:25 <thin> you could code a:
22:00:29 <thin> interactive editor
22:00:33 <thin> mud
22:00:47 <thin> postscript-graphics vocabulary
22:00:56 <Sonarman> or X11 bindings!
22:01:08 <thin> eh?
22:01:09 <Sonarman> well not bindings actually
22:01:44 <Sonarman> but a library^Wvocabulary for X-Windows programming
22:02:13 <thin> if you want :P
22:02:14 <thin> how big is X11's api ?
22:02:18 <thin> how many words
22:03:02 --- nick: kc-aikido -> kc5tja
22:07:06 <kc5tja> back
22:07:49 <thin> welcome back
22:08:00 <Sonarman> X doesn't have an API, it's an application that runs as a server that X programs ("clients") send opcodes to, and Xlib (and friends) is an API that let's you use convenient functions like XDoThis(foo_bar_pixmap), because doing all the raw command-sending yourself would be silly.  so a forth X vocabulary would open a connection to the X11 socket and send the commands and handle replies.  at least, i think that's how it works
22:09:14 <thin> sonarman
22:09:25 <thin> sonarman: sounds interesting
22:09:38 <thin> a real challenge for a real man !
22:10:32 <kc5tja> Xlib is the name for X11's API.
22:10:48 <kc5tja> Just because it runs in another address space doesn't mean it doesn't have an API.  :)
22:14:09 --- join: Serg_Penguin (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth
22:15:30 <thin> sonarman:  you raise a good point.  we need a list of possible forth projects on the website
22:15:41 <thin> people would add their ideas to the list
22:15:53 <thin> and others would pick them up and make them into real projects
22:15:59 * Serg_Penguin has fixed idea of forth OS
22:16:01 <thin> and others would come along and collaborate perhaps
22:16:43 * Serg_Penguin is not kewl enough to write it myself all the way, but would be glad to help w/ some utilities in a real project
22:17:28 <Serg_Penguin> thin: so what's the link to site ?
22:17:52 <thin> forth.bespin.org is the current (old) site..
22:18:08 <thin> but a new site is being developed right now and should be up in a few days
22:20:15 <Serg_Penguin> cool
22:20:36 <Serg_Penguin> kinda like sourceforge, but all dedicated to Forth projects ?
22:20:56 <kc5tja> More like a professional or academic trade publication.
22:21:23 <Serg_Penguin> good design, no fancy crap !
22:21:30 <Serg_Penguin> keep it the same way
22:21:51 <kc5tja> Well, we're going to use a content management system to help in the administration of the site and in ensuring the highest editorial standards.
22:22:14 <kc5tja> Nothing is published unless the site's editors agree it's worthy of publication.
22:22:25 <kc5tja> Hence, you won't see articles like, "Forth is bad-ass, because it puts C in the hole!"
22:22:59 <kc5tja> Articles will be of the same caliber, I would guess, as what you find in the IEEE Computer magazine, or the Communications of the ACM journal.
22:23:23 <Serg_Penguin> but please keep zipped-up versions ov everything, include zipping in scripts
22:24:02 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:24:09 * Serg_Penguin looks at http://www.forth.com/Content/History/History1b.htm , wanna read all but no zip no mass downloader
22:24:28 <kc5tja> ??
22:24:37 <kc5tja> Keep what zipped up?
22:27:11 <Serg_Penguin> articles
22:27:17 <Serg_Penguin> atoms of thought
22:27:27 <Serg_Penguin> go to no zip no mass downloader
22:27:27 <Serg_Penguin> <kc5tja> ??
22:27:44 <kc5tja> Yes, I read that, but I still don't understand.
22:27:45 <thin> what is 'no zip no mass downloader' ?
22:27:52 <Serg_Penguin> sorry mis-paste
22:28:00 <Serg_Penguin> go to http://www.forth.com/Content/History/History1b.htm 
22:28:03 <thin> and ?
22:28:13 <thin> i've been to that site, i don't remember any 'no zip no mass downloader'
22:28:38 <Serg_Penguin> CLEAR, FORGET IT
22:29:08 <Serg_Penguin> i mean new site must have one-file zip versions of multi-page publications
22:29:22 <Serg_Penguin> formatted print-friendly in HTML
22:29:44 <kc5tja> Oooh, I think I get it now.
22:29:53 <kc5tja> That might be hard for us to do.  I'll work on that though.
22:30:28 <thin> zipped up publications ?
22:31:10 <Serg_Penguin> it needs only a few lines of Perl !
22:31:18 <kc5tja> What he's looking for is when we publish a long article, one which must be broken up into parts, but yet is a "single" article, he wants all the parts to be bundled together in a single .tar.gz or .zip file.
22:32:06 <Serg_Penguin> yeah !
22:32:15 <kc5tja> Serg_Penguin: No, actually, it doesn't.  I do not wish to be rude, but you are not aware of our content management system implementation.  It is not a trivial setup.
22:32:18 <kc5tja> Like I said, I will look into some method of finding a solution to this problem.
22:32:31 <kc5tja> I do not foresee running into this barrier any time soon, but when we become more popular, we certainly will.
22:32:47 <Serg_Penguin> and what is the content management system ?
22:32:48 <kc5tja> The problem will need to be addressed at some point.  I might as well meditate on it soon.
22:33:52 <Serg_Penguin> and please make this version print-friendly, no site design\navigation in it
22:34:15 <kc5tja> We're currently researching the use of Plone.
22:34:23 * Serg_Penguin has a pain killing site designs to put an interesting text in Palm-Pilot
22:34:36 <Serg_Penguin> Plone ?
22:34:41 <kc5tja> http://www.plone.org
22:35:04 <kc5tja> Well, if there is no navigation in it, there is no facility for users to actually use the site.
22:36:24 <Serg_Penguin> no navigation in _zip_
22:36:36 <kc5tja> I think, to satisfy the need for print-friendly versions of documents, we need to host the actual articles outside of Plone, but within Zope itself.  
22:36:50 <kc5tja> This way, we can escape Plone's screen layout stuff.
22:36:54 <Serg_Penguin> yeah, it looks cool w/ pictures off !! good feature !
22:37:01 * kc5tja nods -- definitely, in the zip there wouldn't be any of that stuff.
22:37:24 <Serg_Penguin> is Plone GPL ?
22:37:47 <Serg_Penguin> mega cool site design !
22:38:07 <kc5tja> Yes, it's GPL.
22:38:16 <kc5tja> Wow, you're right.  Not much changes with and without pictures.
22:38:16 <kc5tja> :)
22:38:28 <kc5tja> Excellent use of cascading stylesheets then.
22:39:12 <Serg_Penguin> CSS rulez, i use them :)
22:39:34 <Serg_Penguin> since it's GPL, i'll snatch site design 4 my projects :)
22:40:39 <Serg_Penguin> and put a link somethere in a low-left corner :)
22:41:48 <kc5tja> Hehe h:D
22:46:17 * kc5tja is reading the link Serg posted above -- this is outstanding material.
22:46:27 <kc5tja> This site is definitely bookmarked.
22:46:35 <kc5tja> Damn it, now I want Chuck to publish his previously unpublished book!!
22:46:53 <Serg_Penguin> and i want source !
22:47:10 <Serg_Penguin> + emulator of old computers, but it _can_ be found
22:47:31 * Serg_Penguin seen emu of PDP 11 and even older Honeywell's
22:48:17 <thin> the site is already bookmarked on forth.bespin.org  :P
22:48:33 <thin> and i have 100 more forth links not on forth.bespin.org :PPPPP
22:48:49 <thin> and i didn't really make any effort to select the best forth links for forth.bespin.org
22:49:00 <thin> so there's definitely lots of goodies out there :)
22:50:29 * Serg_Penguin reads this too
22:59:24 <Serg_Penguin> whadda u think, how to add strings to Forth the best way ?
23:00:10 <Serg_Penguin> to OS-hosted forth ?
23:00:44 <Serg_Penguin> coz Perl is really beating Forth on this :((
23:01:47 <thin> well there's the string stack which seems pretty interesting
23:02:19 <thin> speuler implemented a string stack in forth..  look for it on his site http://www.forthfreak.net
23:02:39 <Serg_Penguin> really, i stand for separate stacks for different complex data types - strings, matrixes etc...
23:03:05 <kc5tja> I prefer to write the code i need to manipulate strings, when I need them.
23:03:21 <thin> it's an idea i've thought of, but it doesn't really suite forth..  gets too big too quickly, consumes to many resources
23:03:41 <kc5tja> Manipulating strings in Forth is like manipulating strings in C -- neither language is dynamic, and hence, you must resort to more static, generally in-place methods of processing them.
23:24:25 --- join: zzz (Serg_Pengu@212.34.52.142) joined #forth
23:24:36 --- nick: zzz -> Serg_ghost
23:28:56 --- join: bugslayer (~thin@stu03012.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth
23:29:20 --- quit: Serg_ghost ()
23:29:29 --- quit: thin (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: bugslayer!~thin@stu03012.cariboo.bc.ca)))
23:29:35 --- nick: bugslayer -> thin
23:29:41 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
23:42:00 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:56:08 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth
23:57:06 <a7r> hey
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.05.28