00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.05.26
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00:28:46 <deluxe> bon jour
00:29:12 <a7r_> hey
00:52:56 <deluxe> some1 knows a forth w/ linux, win, standalone src's?
00:56:00 <deluxe> gforth and bigforth are related but not directly
01:10:29 <onetom> tile "forth"
01:10:47 <onetom> its written in C
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01:45:48 * Serg_Penguin throws depth charge in a mug of beer
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02:26:13 <deluxe> onetom: thx
02:26:17 <deluxe> bbl
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04:43:24 <deluxe> some standalone forths running on bochs?
04:44:28 <Robert> Hmm... none that I know of. So there must be tons :)
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05:31:15 <Robert> Hi serg
05:31:19 <Serg_Penguin> hi
05:31:29 <Robert> Sorry, but I shut my box down a bit.
05:31:32 <Robert> It's up now.
05:31:37 * Serg_Penguin just wrote the damn goods catalog in Perl
05:31:53 <Serg_Penguin> n/mind, your shutdown didn't hit me
05:32:00 <Robert> Good :)
05:32:27 <Serg_Penguin> even if it would hit, nothing more important than IRC log
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05:35:37 <Serg_Penguin> Robert: i rarely use this login, maybe for real sensitive stuff - to avoid any traces at work or in provider's logs
05:36:01 <Robert> :)
05:36:08 <Serg_Penguin> no hacking sure
05:36:41 <Serg_Penguin> you may look at logs :))
05:37:01 <Serg_Penguin> BTW about hacking - is your system secure ?
05:37:31 <Robert> Probably not.
05:40:34 <Serg_Penguin> did you ever cracked ?
05:40:43 <Robert> No
05:48:17 <Serg_Penguin> me too
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05:50:32 <Robert> Hi Speuler.
05:50:42 <Speuler> catch/throw works with forthforth v18
05:50:48 <Speuler> hi robert
05:51:46 <Speuler> could actually simplify catch/throw compared to previous versions
05:53:33 <Speuler> guess it's going to be does> to add in next version
06:03:05 * Speuler worries does> wil be complicated because of the used threading model 
06:03:12 * Serg_Penguin goes down for some scrap test
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06:04:28 <Speuler> oh.
06:04:55 <Speuler> forthforth will have sourve libraries, and include just the required code from those
06:04:57 <Speuler> source
06:28:10 <Speuler> shopping...
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07:22:15 <Serg_Penguin> re
07:22:25 <Robert> Hi
07:22:27 * Serg_Penguin is attempting to write NNTP suck in Perl
08:22:34 <XeF4> what site?
08:24:09 <Serg_Penguin> ??
08:24:21 <Serg_Penguin> just a script to get latest nes in txt file
08:24:32 <Serg_Penguin> half-working by now
08:24:48 <Serg_Penguin> now it gets all the group :((
08:24:58 <Serg_Penguin> but i want just N days old
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08:42:30 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
08:42:40 <kc5tja> 'morning/'evening.  :)
08:42:57 <Serg_Penguin> how can i conv date string into unixtime, or compare 2 dates ?
08:43:41 <kc5tja> One way is to convert each of the fields into numbers, then multiply/add each field together into a single number.
08:43:51 <Serg_Penguin> oooops !
08:44:04 <Serg_Penguin> it should be some standart function !
08:44:11 * Serg_Penguin is messing w/ perl
08:44:16 <XeF4> tathi: is it true that fpos works decently these days?
08:44:26 <Serg_Penguin> fpos ?
08:44:57 <kc5tja> Just remember to subtract 1970 from the year first, since the "origin" of Unix' time concept starts January 1, 1970.
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08:53:36 <tathi> XeF4: erm...I think I have a version somewhere that is mostly useable
08:54:35 <tathi> I haven't worked on it in a while though
08:54:42 <tathi> why do you ask?
08:56:12 <tathi> I got tired of the name length restrictions imposed by Chuck's colorforth huffman-encoding scheme
08:56:57 <tathi> so lately I've been experimenting with other ways of storing the source, rather than trying to make it a useable forth :)
08:59:07 <Serg_Penguin> damn !!!
08:59:24 <Serg_Penguin> it's faster to get something from Inet than to find on slow CD !!!
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09:04:22 <XeF4_> tathi: just wondering, because I still haven't bothered to make a working port of my forth stuff to ppc
09:10:26 <tathi> XeF4_: I see.
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09:50:52 <Speuler> tach
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09:52:23 <a7r> .hey
09:52:28 <kc5tja> re
09:56:27 <Speuler> ah. both mr hams
09:58:45 <kc5tja> ?
09:59:31 <a7r> kc5tja: come on. ;)  you're a ham, I'm a ham.
10:00:12 <kc5tja> Yes, we are.
10:00:36 <kc5tja> I'm just curious to learn what prompted Speuler's interjection, that's all...  :)
10:01:09 <Speuler> allowed me to greet both of you with one term
10:01:17 <kc5tja> Heh
10:01:57 <Speuler> factoring out the greeting 
10:02:21 <a7r> so I went to test my sha1 code last night.. and it wasn't working..
10:02:45 <a7r> and then I realized that I had redefined 3dup as: 3 pick 3 pick 3 pick .. for some insane reason. ;)
10:03:01 <kc5tja> Heh; that's 3OVER.  :D
10:03:45 * kc5tja has defined 3DUP before, but still has never had a real need for PICK yet.
10:04:09 <kc5tja> My definition is thus: : 3DUP   >R 2DUP R@ -ROT R> ;
10:04:16 <a7r> ah.
10:04:18 <kc5tja> Still not very clean, but it seems to work.
10:04:43 <kc5tja> PICK would definitly be needed for 4DUP and higher, I think.
10:06:01 <kc5tja> Hmmm...
10:06:27 * kc5tja is looking at the C compiler scene for AmigaOS, including GCC, and there seems to be bugs just peppered all over the place.
10:06:37 <XeF4_> my need for pick is that that definition of 3dup compiles to something hideous on every forth I use
10:06:50 <kc5tja> I sure hope it doesn't affect my developments as badly as I'm foreseeing.  Otherwise, I just might HAVE to go with Forth for it.
10:07:28 <kc5tja> XeF4_: On a Forth with proper register allocation and record-keeping, it's actually astonishingly fast.  
10:07:39 <kc5tja> XeF4_: (as would be the PICK solution, but still)
10:08:14 <a7r> kc5tja: what're you going to be writing?
10:08:15 <kc5tja> XeF4_: This is because every word in it is a stack permutation word, and not "really" an active word.
10:08:24 <kc5tja> a7r: I can't disclose that.
10:08:30 <kc5tja> It's a "productivity tool."
10:08:30 <a7r> werd.
10:10:16 <kc5tja> I have a friend of mine who wants what I'm making for AmigaOS 2.x/3.x, while I'm formally commissioned to produce it for the up-coming AmigaOS 4.x.
10:10:57 <a7r> werd.
10:11:22 <kc5tja> So I have no idea how I'm going to be handling this.  All of the GCC implementations for AmigaOS 2/3 seem to have one or more "critical" bugs which, while the compiler is still usable, it's sorely inconvenient to use.
10:11:46 <kc5tja> If it impacts the development of the project significantly, I may have to implement a domain-specific Forth to hasten development efforts.
10:11:47 <Speuler> a7r:  pluck  2 pick  ;  
10:11:59 <Speuler> : 3dup   pluck pluck pluck  ;
10:12:44 <a7r> cool.
10:13:29 <Speuler> btw. forthforth use only 3 stack primitives:  dup, swap, drop
10:16:29 <XeF4_> no over?
10:17:46 <kc5tja> : OVER   >R DUP R> SWAP ;
10:17:47 <kc5tja> ;)
10:19:10 <XeF4_> but then >r and r> are stack primitives too, no?
10:35:23 <Speuler> ok. need to say "parameter stack primitives"
10:35:37 <Speuler> there's >r r> r@ too
10:35:52 <Speuler> those i'd call "return stack primitives"
10:35:53 <XeF4_> but between living without dup and living without over, I would live without dup.
10:35:57 <XeF4_> brb, ->shop
10:36:12 <Speuler> if you got swap and drop, ok
10:36:30 <Speuler> but     >r dup r> swap    is over too
10:36:51 <Speuler> just as   : dup    over swap drop  ;
10:41:37 <kc5tja> Or >R R@ R> :)
10:51:59 <XeF4_> and even my stuff is smart enough to optimize >r r@ r> :-)
10:52:37 <kc5tja> Right now, my Forth environments are very stupid and literal.
10:53:06 <kc5tja> However, I once wrote a register allocation engine in Pygmy Forth to explore the possibilities of various optimizations.
10:56:21 <XeF4_> *nod* 'trouble is, all my usable forth environments are for register-starved machines (z80, i386)
10:56:41 <kc5tja> As was my system.
10:56:48 <kc5tja> It worked quite well.
10:57:34 <Speuler> XeF4_: what'd'you need lots of registers for ?
10:59:23 <kc5tja> I wonder; does the PowerPC G3 support data cache prefetch instructions at all?
10:59:49 <XeF4_> Speu: not need, but it can make wasteful register allocation algorithms fast
11:00:07 <XeF4_> kc5: I seem to recall it does not
11:00:14 <Speuler> level-1 cache is pretty quick too
11:01:15 <XeF4_> Speu: z80 has no cache; i586 still has only 1 address generator->pipeline stalls
11:01:24 <kc5tja> Lots of registers can also help when working with large or complex arithmetic operations inline in a single word.
11:01:57 <Speuler> i grant you that
11:18:36 <kc5tja> I am so glad Linux has an /etc/hosts file ... "127.0.0.1   ads.x10.com" ... Web browsing is a whole lot better for me now...
11:19:51 <XeF4_> but cameras are very useful products and you only hurt yourself by refusing information about the best wireless cam anywhere
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11:33:34 <kc5tja> heh
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11:46:24 <kc5tja> re bugslayer
11:46:38 <bugslayer> hi kc5tja
11:47:06 <bugslayer> well, i'm in the process of installing plone and phpBB
11:47:22 <bugslayer> i hope plone is right for the site.. 
11:48:46 <kc5tja> Plone requires Zope.
11:49:05 <bugslayer> yes
11:49:08 <bugslayer> and CMF
11:49:09 <kc5tja> I can help administer the Plone site if you want though.  I just need manager-level access to the site.
11:49:13 * kc5tja nods
11:49:22 <kc5tja> They're very easy to install though.  Total plug-n-play.
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11:49:31 * kc5tja is installing FireBird.
11:49:37 <bugslayer> firebird?
11:50:14 <kc5tja> Successor to the Phoenix web browser.
11:50:25 * kc5tja is currently using Phoenix 0.5; upgrading to "FireBird" 0.6.
11:50:30 <bugslayer> and phoenix web browser is successor to ?
11:50:34 <bugslayer> i.e. ;)
11:50:43 <bugslayer> mozilla ?
11:51:31 <kc5tja> No, it's a whole new browser, but it's based on the gecko engine
11:52:09 <bugslayer> isn't there a find -parameter that only displays the files i'm looking for rather than spamming me?
11:52:22 <bugslayer> i remember some find command that did that instead of having to use grep..
11:53:32 <XeF4_> mur: thoughts on a Finnish Forth primer? (worth effort? not?)
11:54:16 <bugslayer> the command FIND ..
11:54:23 <bugslayer> hello? does anybody use this command? :P
11:54:42 <bugslayer> XeF4_: is there more than 25 million finnish speaking people?
11:54:58 <XeF4_> bugs: man find. everything you need to know is there
11:55:08 <mur> XeF4_,  at least it might cause  some new innovations and more users :)
11:55:19 <bugslayer> i did, still can't find the command that i vaguely remember from awhile ago :/
11:55:51 <kc5tja> find is very hard to use.
11:56:08 <tathi> how so?
11:56:57 <tathi> you give it a place to start, and whatever search parameters you want
11:57:07 <bugslayer> kc5tja: heh, I agree, it's pretty unintuitive
11:57:15 <bugslayer> that's why they came out with locate & locatedb
11:58:00 <bugslayer> except that locatedb is also faster cause it maintains some tree or whatever
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11:58:11 <bugslayer> isn't that silly tho?  the filesystem is a tree anyways..
12:01:02 <tathi> the way the filesystem is laid out, you have to do way more disk accesses
12:02:43 <bugslayer> i always thought it was a bit backwards, you should give it the search parameters THEN the place to start heh
12:03:26 <XeF4_> mur: hrmz. btw, do you know of another forth user in the entire country?
12:04:02 <kc5tja> Find is hard to use because it does too much.
12:04:12 <kc5tja> All the while, not doing enough.
12:04:19 <kc5tja> And its use is extremely cryptic.
12:04:35 <mur> XeF4_,  no :) but i think there can be found people in universities who do 
12:05:59 <bugslayer> XeF4_: how many finnish people are there?
12:06:26 <mur> 5 in country and 6 total i think (million)
12:07:51 <bugslayer> so that's potentially 30 forthers ;)
12:08:46 <bugslayer> lsddldladjkfad;
12:09:39 <XeF4_> kc5: wasteful, but normally I just find with some really coarse options and use grep for the rest
12:11:02 <XeF4_> except that Forth isn't "siisti" enough for most university people :\
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12:13:55 <kc5tja> Cool.  I have pie-menus installed on Firebird now.  Sweet.
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12:25:26 <mur> szia onetom
12:31:51 <Speuler> kc5tja: it is my understanding that phoenix/firebird was actually targetted to replace mozilla
12:32:07 <Speuler> kc5tja: many functions of mozilla can be added by means of plugins
12:32:27 <Speuler> (which doesn't seem to be perfectly stable yer...)
12:32:46 <kc5tja> Well, it's not 1.0 either.
12:33:06 <kc5tja> I already managed to accidentally crash Firebird by clicking on a broken advertisement link (I haven't been able to reproduce the bug, however). 
12:33:22 <Speuler> kc5tja: did you look at dillo yet ?
12:33:35 <kc5tja> Nonetheless, I use it completely as a replacement for Mozilla for my needs.  To date, I have never even bothered to run the new Mozillas.
12:33:45 <kc5tja> No, and I really don't think I need to.
12:33:51 * kc5tja is very happy with Firebird.
12:33:55 <Speuler> no javascript, java, or other goodies. straight-to-the-pont. 200 kb ...
12:34:02 <Speuler> very fast
12:34:07 <kc5tja> Then I absolutely refuse to use it.
12:34:14 <kc5tja> I *need* Javascript and "the other goodies."
12:35:04 <Speuler> i use phoenix for those. i'm doing more and more general browsing with dillo now, because it loads and starts so quickly
12:35:19 * kc5tja is completely happy with Phoenix on my box.
12:35:27 <Speuler> *even* got a bookmark manager :)
12:35:28 <kc5tja> It starts before I release my finger from the ENTER key.
12:35:38 <mur> dillo is very good in general use but it has some faults still
12:35:55 <Speuler> mur: 0.6 or 0.7 ?
12:36:01 <kc5tja> Well, at any rate, I need to take a shower, and I have some errands to run.
12:36:22 * kc5tja is away: Running errands, getting food, etc.
12:36:32 <Speuler> 0.6 lack of being able to mark text ?
12:36:38 <mur> Speuler,  i dont know
12:36:41 <mur> 0.6 probably
12:36:44 <Speuler> international char set limitarion ?
12:37:26 <Speuler> that i can't mark text was the thing which disturbed me most.
12:37:35 <Speuler> luckily that's gone with 0.7
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12:43:36 * mur updates dillo
12:44:27 * mur woudl have updated if it would hae been possible (file not found on server:P)
12:44:36 <Speuler> 0.72 is current i think
12:44:51 <tathi> I'll have to try firebird.  I have yet to see anything using gecko that isn't unacceptably slow (by my standards).
12:45:04 <mur> Unable to fetch file, server said '/debian/pool/main/d/dillo/dillo_0.7.0-2_i386.deb: No such file or directory 
12:45:15 <Speuler> mur: apt-get update
12:45:28 <mur> install shoudl work as well
12:45:34 <mur> hm
12:45:39 <mur> perhaps that woudl be good idea, Speuler :)
12:46:00 <Speuler> no doubt it would
12:46:47 <Speuler> i've moved my workstation installations to gentoo btw
12:48:10 <Speuler> there's v0.48b of bashforth on line now
12:48:25 <Speuler> minor bug fix
12:48:56 * mur is waiting for adonthell to come :)
12:49:34 <mur> text marking is good when reading, you can highlight and it's nicer to read
12:50:43 <XeF4_> adnothell?
12:51:31 <mur> it is a RPG game
12:51:48 <mur> and adventure
12:52:01 <mur> the demoversions have been nice
12:52:41 <mur> dillo seems to have changed quite much since my last version
12:53:11 <Speuler> my impression is, it is even quicker now
12:53:34 <mur> http://adonthell.linuxgames.com/
12:53:36 <mur> yes
12:54:13 <mur> it still does not save pictures with right click and save
12:55:01 * tathi still wants to see a graphical web browser with a keyboard interface as good as Lynx's
12:55:07 <mur> dillo seems to be experiencing some probelems with that site
12:56:05 <mur> tathi, perhaps someone shuold make glynx .. a graphical lynx 
12:57:37 <tathi> mur: I keep thinking about it...
12:57:49 <tathi> but I still don't have a forth that I want to write it in ;)
12:59:20 <mur> gtg
12:59:22 <mur> to shower and wc
12:59:28 <mur> :)
12:59:37 <mur> .. SAuna :)
13:07:04 <Speuler> phood
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13:24:04 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:47:42)
13:24:40 * kc5tja forgot he had to be back here around 2-ish because he's awaiting a phone call from his lawyer.
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14:09:50 <XeF4_> does anyone still have tcn's i386 opcode map?
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14:25:25 <Speuler> tach
14:25:31 <Robert> Hi 
15:05:48 * kc5tja is away: Storage unit....
15:32:23 * kc5tja is back (gone 00:26:34)
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15:52:11 <thin> hello yo|da
15:52:32 <yo|da> hello thin
15:53:12 <Robert> i
15:53:32 <Robert> H
15:53:34 <Robert> er
15:53:35 <Robert> Hi
15:55:49 <yo|da> Robert: ?late?
15:56:23 <yo|da> Robert: Hi
15:56:24 <thin> yo|da: do you code forth?
15:57:17 <yo|da> thin: no just curious
15:57:31 <yo|da> thin: (not yet)
15:59:55 <Robert> Oh, there is hope.
16:00:20 <yo|da> could need some help on colorforth ;-)
16:00:51 <thin> not many of us have had exposure to colorforth
16:01:00 <thin> but if you haven't found the colorforth wiki yet, it is here: http://kristopherjohnson.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ColorForth
16:01:19 <yo|da> also read the chuck interview, nice
16:01:20 <XeF4_> thin: Xcolorforth has decent compatibility fwiw
16:01:37 <thin> chuck's colorforth runs fine on my comp
16:01:46 <yo|da> some1 tried it on bochs yet?
16:02:03 <thin> nope, but it's been ported to run on X and even a windows version i believe
16:02:28 <Speuler> i got an X version on www.forthfreak.net
16:02:32 <Speuler> in misc
16:02:32 <XeF4_> the X version is irritatingly unresponsive/sluggish, though
16:03:01 <thin> xef4: isn't there several different versions?
16:03:16 <thin> by different people..
16:03:42 <XeF4_> could very well be, I've only used the 'Xcolorforth', don't recall the author
16:03:44 <yo|da> yeah but on bochs it's simulatedly standalone, which is interesting
16:03:54 <thin> xef4: mslacker ?
16:04:17 <yo|da> thin: www.thelma-louise.net
16:04:40 <thin> one of the colorforth porters was on here when the IFCP (sp?) contest was going on..
16:04:50 <thin> IFPC
16:05:24 <thin> but he wasn't able to get colorforth to run on linux in time for the contest
16:05:30 <Robert> Oh, there's an X colorforth?
16:05:44 <XeF4_> http://www.oakland.edu/~maslicke/colorforth/
16:05:49 <XeF4_> author not named anywhere on the page
16:05:53 <Robert> Same odd keyboard map?
16:05:59 <Robert> Or normal keys? :P
16:06:08 <yo|da> both
16:06:16 <yo|da> options
16:06:22 <thin> yeah, mslick
16:06:35 <thin> or maslick
16:06:36 <yo|da> to compile
16:06:37 <thin> on irc anyways
16:07:21 <yo|da> http://www.users.qwest.net/%7Eloveall/c4index.htm
16:08:31 <yo|da> Colorforth with a regular keyboard layout
16:08:41 <yo|da> http://www.thelma-louise.net/
16:08:55 <yo|da> to assemble actually
16:09:50 <yo|da> but what do i know?
16:10:54 <yo|da> what for do i need a dos .com for an fd image?
16:14:43 <yo|da> both ways doesn't start up :/
16:15:34 <XeF4_> does your video card support 1024x768x8bpp VBE linear?
16:19:04 <Speuler> yo|da: probably for booting off from it 
16:19:50 <yo|da> ok might be the thing  i will try it on different box tomorrow
16:20:04 <Speuler> .com is just a plain image of an executable
16:20:49 <yo|da> oh yes doesn't have that mz header?
16:20:56 <Speuler> and runs in the mode a conventional bios leaves the cpu in
16:21:01 <Speuler> no headers
16:21:09 <Speuler> that's .exe
16:21:14 <yo|da> then ok
16:21:37 <Speuler> only thing to know about is the logical offset of $100
16:22:23 <yo|da> the chuck interview, impressive. what do you think?
16:22:24 <Speuler> i.e, first byte of image is on adress $100 to acces it then file executes
16:22:49 <yo|da> ..now i remember :-)
16:28:26 <yo|da> Steve Ballmer's recent trip to Munich to offer up to 90% rebates for the Microsoft Software Assurance and Licenses was in vain. The ruling party of Germans biggest city and self-proclaimed 'technology capital' now decided to migrate 14.000 workstations to Linux and an OSS office suite. A study comparing the alternatives had assigned 6218 (out of 10.000) points to Linux/OSS, while the MS Windows platform only scored 5293
16:33:22 <yo|da> Speuler: your domain name suggests you're from munich?
16:33:47 <Speuler> almost
16:33:53 <Speuler> not quite
16:33:57 <Speuler> not anymore :)
16:34:21 <Speuler> until two weeks ago, t'was munich
16:34:32 <Speuler> now it's close to garmisch
16:34:57 <Speuler> 'bout 80 km from munich
16:38:53 <yo|da> in the chuck moore interview, he mentioned "fml". now, does anybody:
16:39:20 <yo|da> know anything/more, or even care
16:39:27 <yo|da> ?
16:40:06 <Speuler> forth-ml ?
16:40:17 <XeF4_> I know that he mentioned it over a year ago and still nothing has come of it so it is unlikely anything ever will
16:41:37 <yo|da> thin: is it 'your' chan?
16:42:00 <yo|da> XeF4_: thought he meant something alike
16:43:55 <yo|da> he even suggested a lá little down, little up and even fewer inbetween, no?
16:45:47 --- quit: yo|da (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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16:49:32 <thin> fml is being actively developed
16:49:44 <deluxe_> The well-known shareware site Tucows refuses to list Delta Forth .NET for reasons beyond any logic.
16:49:45 <deluxe_>  Disruptive Technology?
16:50:13 <thin> well its a forth for .net which is just pure evil
16:50:45 <deluxe_> so tucows just wanted to be helpful?
16:50:54 * thin is boycotting .net
16:51:22 <deluxe_> which is understandable, of course
16:52:17 <deluxe_> i can agree, but that might not be the point.
16:54:15 <thin> well i'm not gonna be helpful
16:54:40 <deluxe_> ?
16:55:25 <deluxe_> <thin> fml is being actively developed <- where's that?
16:55:39 <thin> it's being actively developed!
16:56:21 <deluxe_> do you have an url?
16:56:26 <thin> nope
16:56:38 <deluxe_> how do you know?
16:56:42 <thin> it's being actively developed... by no one :P
16:56:51 <thin> it's not dead tho
16:57:04 <thin> people are working on forth cgi stuff, and fml will come in eventually
16:58:29 <deluxe_> thin: are you interested in it?
16:58:56 <thin> yes
16:58:59 <thin> sorta
16:59:29 <deluxe_> thin: are you interested in xml/rdf/uml?
17:00:44 * kc5tja will be doing some serious XML development for this contract he's working up.
17:02:14 <thin> xml seems crappy to me, but i don't really know much about it.  it seems too much of "the solution to everything"
17:02:28 <thin> i instinctively distrust all hype :P
17:03:35 <kc5tja> All XML is is a way to structure text, and mark up what various chunks of text are.
17:04:14 <kc5tja> For example, in a word processor, you might see this in a save-file: "blah blah blah.  And for all we know, <footnote>which isn't much. . .</footnote> we're all doomed to suffer under Bill Gate's hegemony over humanity."
17:05:28 <kc5tja> XML is a cure-all of sorts, because it doesn't dictate what the various tags are.  It only specifies how to encode tags and attributes inside an XML file.
17:05:46 <kc5tja> Hence, HTML can be valid XML -- in fact, XML-compliant HTML files are, in fact, called XHTML files.
17:06:33 <kc5tja> What made XML popular is the fact that it was substantially simpler to implement than SGML, which existed before XML (and is the basis of the original HTML), but which wasn't popular because of its complexity.
17:06:43 <XeF4_> using explicit names for closing tags is a waste of keystrokes I'd rather use for IRC or something worthwhile
17:07:16 <kc5tja> Then don't type it.
17:08:13 <kc5tja> 80% of all XML files today are automatically generated or parsed.
17:08:27 <kc5tja> The nice thing of XML over a binary format like IFF, is its human readability and editability.
17:08:34 <XeF4_> I should hope they're automatically parsed
17:09:20 <kc5tja> I find it difficult to believe that I'm the only one here who has any inkling of a clue of what XML is all about, how it's used, and why it's significant.
17:09:59 <kc5tja> Hand-edited XML isn't that hard to do anyway.  Still, automated tools have existed for almost a decade now.
17:11:12 <XeF4_> I know what it's about, it just bothers me that anyone could reinvent s-exps so clunkily
17:12:22 <thin> shouldn't it have been "HTML-compliant XML files are called XHTML"? :P
17:26:07 <deluxe_> kc5tja: forth and xml, might be two worlds?
17:26:08 <thin> deluxe: tell me what direction fml can be taken besides the web direction..
17:27:13 <deluxe_> <thin> onetom has discussed how a forth program could be coded in uml (in text) and a forth translator could translate it into forth
17:27:28 <deluxe_> uml is xml too
17:28:32 <thin> there's 2 different uml
17:28:37 <thin> which one are you speaking of?
17:29:03 <thin> you're speaking of universal markup language?
17:29:25 <thin> when i mentioned onetom, i was talking about unified modelling language
17:29:41 <thin> a unified modelling language translator in forth..
17:29:53 <thin> with the uml done only in text rather than pictures
17:31:48 <deluxe_> vrml is that markup or modelling?
17:32:05 <thin> that's totally different heh
17:32:22 <thin> unified modelling language = for designing applications
17:32:56 <thin> vrml = like flash, for showing virtual models..
17:34:08 <deluxe_> xml is universal, no?
17:34:43 <deluxe_> a very simple idea actually
17:35:18 <deluxe_> tree tags
17:36:18 * deluxe_ is a newbee on all this things
17:36:30 <deluxe_> erm, these
17:37:15 <deluxe_> lol
17:41:05 <thin> universal markup language might be similar to xml
17:41:06 <thin> i don't know much
17:45:16 <thin> bbiaf
17:45:19 --- quit: thin ("brb")
17:49:58 <deluxe_> ok it's time now
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17:59:23 <yo|da> not many of us have had exposure to colorforth
18:00:09 <yo|da> hard to believe..
18:00:20 <yo|da> really?
18:02:26 <yo|da> will see
18:05:17 <yo|da> tomorrow
18:10:54 <yo|da> if it's something 4 newbee's 
18:11:25 <kc5tja> deluxe_: They might be two worlds, but I would expect some general knowledge about it to be relatively widespread, considering how much it's used.
18:11:44 <kc5tja> yo|da: I don't understand what you're getting at.
18:12:26 <yo|da> have a good time ;-)
18:12:54 <yo|da> kc5tja: oh i'm speaking about colorforth
18:13:46 * kc5tja is starving, and I don't know what I want to eat.
18:13:55 <kc5tja> Well, I gathered that much.  :-)
18:14:10 <kc5tja> I don't know if you're asking a question or making a statement.
18:14:34 <XeF4_> kc5: I would be surprised if there are 6 people in the world using Moore's colorforth productively
18:15:34 <kc5tja> I could do it.  :D
18:15:59 * kc5tja was actually thinking of implementing a ColorForth under Linux once, just to see how it'd feel.
18:16:10 <kc5tja> Using X11.
18:16:17 <kc5tja> But I have too many projects going on as it is.
18:16:20 <kc5tja> It'll have to wait.
18:17:16 <yo|da> kc5tja: i meant, for that chuck is the founder of forth, thin's statement is astonishing. so i'm not sure if he was kidding...
18:19:39 <kc5tja> XeF4_: XML isn't an attempt to recreate s-exps.  S-exps can't be parameterized (not easily).
18:19:50 <kc5tja> However, I will admit that parsing s-exps is easier to do over-all.
18:24:43 <XeF4_> kc5: hmz.. *nod* one can make a convention of putting parameters in a list pointed to by car, though
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18:26:31 <XeF4_> kc5: I have my own colorforth-like system as well, but it diverges quite much from Moore's version
18:28:15 <kc5tja> Yeah, I didn't expect mine to be a clone of his.
18:28:20 <kc5tja> Just to explore the concepts.
18:28:23 <kc5tja> brb -- food.
18:28:26 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food
18:28:29 * kc-food is away: foodage
18:32:47 --- quit: yo|da ("wbb")
19:17:23 --- quit: Stepan ("disconnecting from stoned server.")
20:22:37 * kc-food is back (gone 01:54:08)
20:22:39 <kc-food> Back
20:22:47 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja
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21:49:48 <a7r_> hey
21:55:31 <kc5tja> re
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22:31:26 <Serg_Penguin> hi !
22:31:52 <Serg_Penguin> i finally wrote my NNTP suck proggie :)
22:32:47 <kc5tja> Cool.  :)
22:33:20 <Serg_Penguin> doon't you know, why admins forbid NEWNEWS command ?
22:33:58 <Serg_Penguin> i had to screw around this to get news newer than N days ago :((
22:34:51 <kc5tja> When I was working for Armored Internet, we supported the NEWNEWS command.
22:35:06 <Serg_Penguin> hmm...
22:35:08 <kc5tja> But then, none of our customers really ever used Usenet news anymore either.
22:35:22 <Serg_Penguin> Russia Online forbids it :((
22:35:39 <kc5tja> Hmm...I can't possibly see why.
22:36:17 <Serg_Penguin> so i have to LISTNEWS and then get date field 'foreach'
22:36:28 <kc5tja> Weird.
22:36:28 <Serg_Penguin> wasting traffic :((
22:36:36 * kc5tja nods
22:36:52 <Serg_Penguin> praise gods they support xhdr
22:36:59 <Serg_Penguin> RFC - mega rulez !
22:37:56 <Serg_Penguin> but my proggie needs lots work - its slow because synchronous transfer
22:38:14 <Serg_Penguin> ask date - compare - fetch msg
22:38:59 <kc5tja> Is it written in Forth by any chance?  (Just wondering)
22:39:11 <Serg_Penguin> it's prototyped in Perl :))
22:39:36 <Serg_Penguin> i fiest attempted in Forth but sunk in weird socks
22:39:43 <Serg_Penguin> fiRst
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23:11:25 <kc5tja> Off to bed.
23:11:32 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.05.26