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04:52:07 <serg_ghost> hi
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05:20:21 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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11:01:59 <a7r> hey
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11:15:32 <a7r> so I was thinking more about a handheld colorforth last night.
11:16:01 <a7r> I was thinking you could put the Forth on an iPAQ, and program it over the serial interface, and leave the LCD for everything GUI oriented.
11:16:20 <a7r> so you use the GUI on the LCD, and the second you want to hack out some Forth, you just plug it into a laptop, or whatever./
11:20:19 <crc> Would it run natively or as an application under WinCE or Linux?
11:21:41 <a7r> it'd run natively
11:22:01 <a7r> using the handheld.org bootldr to execute it out of flash.
11:22:18 <crc> That would be an interesting project
11:23:17 <crc> I've been thinking of porting RetroForth to my Zaurus SL-5500
11:24:51 <crc> You really should have some way of programming it without using a serial hookup.
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11:44:55 <a7r> I'm thinking you could store forth blocks, in flash.
11:49:39 <crc> It should be possible, at least if you don't dual-boot with WinCE or Linux
11:50:50 <a7r> yup.
11:51:04 <a7r> you could do it even with a dual boot setup w/ Linux, if you did it right.
11:51:16 <a7r> hh.org bootldr has partition support implemented.
11:51:35 <crc> Then it would be easy on the iPaq
11:51:59 <crc> A little harder on a Zaurus since the boot loader doesn't seem to support partitions
12:18:04 <Stepan> re
12:18:18 <Stepan> what are you talking about? forth blocks in flash?
12:18:46 <crc> ColorForth on the iPaq (or Zaurus)
12:20:57 <crc> I'm thinking of porting RetroForth to the Zaurus in the near future, and a7r was thinking of a ColorForth on the iPaq
12:21:38 <crc> The two projects would have some similiarities (RetroForth was inspired heavily from ColorForth)
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15:35:54 <jdamisch> sifbot: 5 5 + .
15:35:55 <sifbot> jdamisch: 10     
15:36:01 <Robert> Hi :)
15:36:07 <jdamisch> hi
15:36:43 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : test  ( n)  10 0 do i + loop . ; test
15:36:45 <sifbot> jdamisch:   stack underflow    
15:36:53 <jdamisch> sifbot: 5 test
15:36:54 <sifbot> jdamisch:   Word not found: test  
15:36:58 <jdamisch> it don't remember
15:37:03 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : test  ( n)  10 0 do i + loop . ;  5 test
15:37:04 <sifbot> jdamisch: 50     
15:37:10 <jdamisch> there we go
15:37:50 <jdamisch> Robert, do you know anything about SwiftForth?
15:37:57 <Robert> Nope.
15:38:06 <jdamisch> i have been reading the manual for it
15:38:17 <jdamisch> i haven't written much code in it yet
15:38:35 <jdamisch> i might try to write in it tonight or tomorrow
15:39:24 <jdamisch> atleast they tell you the mechanics of how the object system works, although I'll probably just roll my own
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15:39:34 <jdamisch> hi
15:39:40 <kc5tja> re
15:40:18 <jdamisch> kc5tja, do you know anything about SwiftForth?
15:41:33 <kc5tja> Nope.  I used the demo version for a very brief period, but I couldn't get very far with it.  It lacked documentation.
15:41:43 <kc5tja> It looks pretty cool though, once you get used to it's environment.
15:42:14 <jdamisch> my demo came with the Forth Users Handbook and the User Manual
15:42:19 <jdamisch> it all came in the download
15:42:33 <jdamisch> I'm demoing 2.2.2.9
15:42:56 <jdamisch> its probably worth the d/l just for the Forth Users Handbook
15:43:06 <jdamisch> I bought the paper version b4 it came in the download
15:43:33 <kc5tja> Yeah, I have the paperback too.  I use it quite often.
15:43:46 <jdamisch> its worthwhile
15:44:06 <jdamisch> I probably won't use SWOOP too much
15:44:20 <jdamisch> but alteast they tell you how the object system works
15:45:39 <jdamisch> parts of SwiftForth seem more complicated than they need to be.  I can use it anyway.
15:45:55 <jdamisch> Or just the parts of it that I need, I don't need to use all words in a system
15:45:59 <jdamisch> there are alot of words
15:46:20 <jdamisch> One thing is I don't know why they support blocks in the way that they do
15:46:39 <jdamisch> I'd just have a file named BLOCKS, and then map the blocks directly into the file
15:46:52 <kc5tja> I never got that far.  WHen I downloaded it, I was evaluating it for use in a project for Windows, and it turns out (de facto) that C was a better choice for my needs.
15:46:58 <kc5tja> I never looked at SwiftForth again.
15:47:06 <jdamisch> i see
15:47:27 <kc5tja> I wish I could have used Forth though, but management didn't like the idea.
15:48:08 <jdamisch> management have their own agenda
15:49:01 <kc5tja> Yes, money.  I know, because I used to be a manager myself (and will be again, for my own company).
15:51:42 <jdamisch> then a manager should just look at what is most economical is a given situation, not what language it is 
15:51:57 <jdamisch> but i'm no manager
15:52:57 <kc5tja> Well, it was short-term economical to use C, and the long-term benefits didn't necessarily compete with C's long-term (and already well known) benefits.
15:53:34 <kc5tja> Interfacing to other C modules was a priority, as was ease of use by other C programmers.
15:53:54 <kc5tja> And we didn't have a whole heck of a lot of time to do feasibility studies either.
15:54:18 <jdamisch> do you ever program in Forth?
15:54:26 <kc5tja> Yes
15:54:42 <jdamisch> i do sometimes
15:54:53 <kc5tja> Mostly quick, one-off utilities for Linux text processing or other command-line filter applications, but I'm also writing my own Forth environment for my aging laptop.
15:55:14 <jdamisch> small disposable apps?
15:55:23 <kc5tja> Yup.
15:55:43 <kc5tja> For more durable apps, I usually go with Python, because it has a better run-time library.
15:55:45 <jdamisch> how many other guys have Forth in their tool box and just use it for small disposable apps?
15:55:54 <kc5tja> I really don't know.
15:56:02 <kc5tja> I would assume most of the participants of comp.lang.forth.  :)
15:56:22 <jdamisch> i'm totally into Forth, I'm even trying to write a Chuck style DB
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15:57:20 <kc5tja> The Forth environment I'm writing for my laptop will be raw metal -- no underlying OS.
15:57:29 <jdamisch> cool
15:57:36 <kc5tja> I intend on doing a lot of ham radio stuff with the laptop.
15:57:42 <jdamisch> i have CF on a floppy, but i'm preoccupied with Swift right now
15:57:48 <jdamisch> neat
15:58:04 <kc5tja> But the new networking protocol I'm working on will still have to have a C version for use as a "reference implementation".  Bleh.
15:58:04 <jdamisch> do, will you be able to send Forth source code over the radio or something like that?
15:59:04 <kc5tja> If you so desire.  I can do that already with the existing packet radio protocols (e.g., AX.25 is currently the king of the hill for ham radio).
15:59:26 <jdamisch> why are you writting a new protocol?
15:59:58 <kc5tja> AX.25 makes woefully inefficient use of the amateur spectrum.
16:00:11 <jdamisch> it's inefficient
16:00:19 <jdamisch> go figure
16:00:37 <kc5tja> It transmits source and destination addresses with each packet sent, despite being a connection-oriented protocol, so it's wasting some 15 octets with header overhead.
16:01:10 <kc5tja> The ideal packet size for amateur radio links seems to be around 40 octets, based on empirical findings.  With a 19 octet header, that's almost a 33% overhead.
16:01:30 <kc5tja> ??
16:01:32 <jdamisch> too much
16:01:38 <kc5tja> Yeah, WAY too much.
16:01:58 <jdamisch> good luck!
16:02:06 <jdamisch> :^)
16:02:08 <kc5tja> So I'm trying to implement a protocol based on ATM networking.
16:02:20 <jdamisch> is it tight?
16:03:14 <jdamisch> is it efficient?
16:03:42 <kc5tja> It has a fixed 10% header overhead, regardless of hwo much data you send.
16:03:56 <jdamisch> much better
16:04:13 <jdamisch> how much header do you really need?
16:04:22 <kc5tja> A single cell comprises a 5 octet header, and 48 octet payload.
16:04:39 <jdamisch> what's in the header?
16:05:29 <kc5tja> Some currently unused fields (about 5 bits worth), a 24-bit virtual circuit identifier, a payload type ID (3-bits, NOT the same thing as its namesake in Ethernet protocol), and a cell-loss priority bit.
16:05:36 <kc5tja> Oh, and an 8-bit CRC of the header contents.
16:06:09 <kc5tja> I used to have a site about this, but SourceForge had to go and fucking blow it to kingdom come.
16:06:15 <kc5tja> And they refuse to restore from backups.  :(
16:06:25 <jdamisch> its better to just have your own site
16:06:44 <jdamisch> get a domain name and hall it around to where ever you need to go
16:06:51 <jdamisch> then keep your own backups
16:07:01 <kc5tja> I piggybacked it on another project site I have, which was also blown away.  Fortunately, I still have all the regular files that people can download.
16:07:27 <kc5tja> Well, two problems with that.  Domains cost money, they require a DNS host, and my bandwidth is upload-limited to 30kbps.
16:07:43 <kc5tja> s/two/three/
16:07:54 <jdamisch> i pay like $10/month to host my site
16:08:12 <kc5tja> As someone who is currently unemployed, that's too much.
16:08:29 <jdamisch> i see
16:08:41 <kc5tja> Besides, I have specialized requirements for my site: I need to host Zope installations.
16:08:53 <jdamisch> what are those?
16:08:57 <kc5tja> SF doesn't host Zope, but any site I put up on my own box will definitely be Zope sites.
16:09:16 <kc5tja> Think open-source ColdFusion killer.
16:09:27 <kc5tja> Only even more.
16:10:23 <jdamisch> i feel like getting something to eat
16:10:29 <kc5tja> Me too.
16:10:36 <jdamisch> like maybe I will just keep the line open and go get a snack
16:10:39 <kc5tja> Got back from a 12-mile bike ride an hour ago.  :)
16:11:02 <jdamisch> i like to ride my bike sometimes :^)
16:11:06 <kc5tja> Unfortunately, I won't be doing that.  After my dinner, it'll be off to aikido for me.
16:11:12 <kc5tja> biking is awesome.
16:11:19 <kc5tja> My average trip speed is now 18MPH.  I'm stoked.
16:11:37 <kc5tja> I can burst up to 40MPH on flat terrain with my bike in 24th gear.  Woohoo!
16:11:41 <kc5tja> (wears me way out though)
16:12:10 <kc5tja> Just about 8 months ago, I was happy if I got around 3MPH round-trip average speed.  :D
16:13:13 <jdamisch> l8ter
16:13:20 <kc5tja> okies
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16:46:59 <jdamisch> i'll be back in a few 
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16:55:44 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : test ( n)  10 0 do  i +  loop ;  5 test
16:55:45 <sifbot> jdamisch:     
16:56:01 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : test ( n)  10 0 do  i +  loop ;  5 test .
16:56:02 <sifbot> jdamisch: 50     
16:59:47 <jdamisch> forth like if honk then
17:03:59 <jdamisch> Robert, are you there?
17:12:55 <jdamisch> sifbot: help
17:12:56 <sifbot> jdamisch:   Word not found: help  
17:13:00 <jdamisch> sifbot: words
17:13:02 <sifbot> jdamisch: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ...    
17:13:42 <Robert> Not anymore.
17:13:46 <jdamisch> sifbot: words .
17:13:47 <sifbot> jdamisch: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ...  stac<truncated>
17:13:49 <Robert> I'm going to bed :)
17:13:54 <jdamisch> good night
17:14:03 <Robert> Night
17:14:27 <jdamisch> sifbot: assembler
17:14:29 <sifbot> jdamisch:   Word not found: assembler  
17:14:41 <jdamisch> sifbot: bye
17:14:42 <Robert> Got the brainfuck compiler down to 136 bytes, with 16-bit jumps and 32kB data area :)  With 1/2kB data and 8-bit jumps, 128 bytes.
17:14:42 <sifbot> jdamisch:   Word not found: bye  
17:15:13 <jdamisch> thats small
17:15:21 <Robert> http://robert.zizi.org/ in case you're bored enough to have a look (only 128b one there).
17:15:24 <Robert> Yes.
17:15:32 <jdamisch> what do you know about sifbot: 
17:15:38 <Robert> Not much.
17:15:55 <Robert> Anyway, I have to go now :) Bye again
17:15:59 <jdamisch> bye
17:39:38 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : honk  10 0 do ." honk" cr loop ; honk
17:39:39 <sifbot> jdamisch: honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  honk  <truncated>
17:39:54 <jdamisch> sifbot:  : honk  10 0 do ." honk" lf loop ; honk
17:39:55 <sifbot> jdamisch:   Word not found: lf  
17:40:45 <a7r> re.
17:43:42 <jdamisch> hi
17:44:21 <jdamisch> what do you think about sifbot?
17:44:45 <a7r> in the grand scheme of things?
17:44:53 <jdamisch> yeah
17:45:00 <jdamisch> its just a nice little toy isn't it
17:45:11 <a7r> mildly interesting... like one of those Forth java applets. :)
17:45:21 <jdamisch> totally
17:45:48 <jdamisch> what Forth do you use?
17:46:47 <a7r> pforth right now
17:46:57 <a7r> but I want to write my own colorforth sometime soon.
17:46:59 <jdamisch> i'm reading the SwiftForth manual
17:47:10 <onetom> a7r: me 2
17:47:14 <jdamisch> i would also like to write my own experimental forth
17:47:29 <a7r> onetom: cool
17:47:36 <jdamisch> i'm not sure that it would be CF, but i might snag some ideas from it
17:47:51 <jdamisch> I want to do some CF, but I'm getting into SF now
17:47:54 <a7r> I want a native StrongARM Forth, to run on a handheld.. that'll probably be the first thing I code.
17:48:09 <jdamisch> sounds good
17:48:22 <jdamisch> I was thinking of making a VMU Forth, as a gag, but I don't want to mess with it
17:49:23 <jdamisch> keep the compilers heads in the host PC
17:49:37 <jdamisch> keep the word headers in the host PC i mean
17:50:15 <jdamisch> a VMU is a tiny computer
17:50:46 <a7r> crc brought up the idea of using the Zaurus as a ColorForth computer, with the built in keyboard.
17:50:52 <a7r> which is probably a great idea, except for the screen orientation.
17:51:12 <jdamisch> i've never seen a Zaurus
17:51:22 <jdamisch> is it Ru?
17:52:28 <a7r> Russian?
17:52:46 <jdamisch> is it Russian, yes that was my quesiton
17:54:01 <a7r> no, it's Japanese.
17:54:11 <jdamisch> ok
17:54:22 <jdamisch> maybe i should type it into google
17:55:51 <jdamisch> the screen orientation would not hurt one bit
17:56:01 <jdamisch> so what if the screen is tilted like a videogame
17:56:57 <jdamisch> the font size should be adjustable, and the 256 byte block can just wrap the screen area
17:57:06 <jdamisch> there can be info bars someplace
17:58:21 <jdamisch> you need information about the hardware, and how can you boot into it and jetison the os
17:58:27 <jdamisch> i suppose
17:59:05 <jdamisch> how would you boot up strait into it, replace the roms?
17:59:10 <jdamisch> override the roms?
18:00:22 <jdamisch> i'm looking at the Zaurus right now
18:01:18 <a7r> jdamisch: the screen orientation is portrait.. I would prefer widescreen like I sometimes use on my iPAQ.
18:02:37 <jdamisch> so, is there currently any Forth OS for an avaiable portible mini computer
18:02:42 <jdamisch> so, is there currently any Forth OS for an avaiable portable mini computer
18:04:58 <a7r> I don't know
18:04:59 <onetom> me neither
18:05:01 <a7r> I know people have code for embedded devices.
18:05:19 <onetom> just forth-es attached 2 the underlying os
18:06:12 <jdamisch> you can be either in the OS or not with Forth
18:06:19 <jdamisch> I could just get a Palm Pilot
18:06:37 <a7r> actually, I think there is a Forth for the Palm.
18:06:44 <jdamisch> there are a few
18:06:53 <jdamisch> i'm not sure which one i would pick at the moment
18:07:27 <onetom> no free 4th 4 the pilot, but
18:07:37 <jdamisch> there are a few pay ones
18:07:48 <jdamisch> i don't mind if its a good forth
18:07:52 <onetom> there is 1 commercial, whats pretty good
18:08:16 <onetom> yup... let me think about the name
18:08:41 <onetom> not dragon forth - tho its not bad either at all -
18:08:57 <jdamisch> its not Quartus is it?
18:09:01 <onetom> yes
18:09:04 <onetom> thats it
18:09:44 <jdamisch> and i could just bang on the metal from there if i need to, like in the atari ST
18:10:01 <jdamisch> infact, isn't the palm also baised on a motorola 68K of some sort?
18:10:13 <onetom> yup
18:10:34 <jdamisch> we all know that the 68K works well with multiple stacks
18:10:39 <jdamisch> like a 2 stack machine
18:10:55 <onetom> but u cant access the hw directly
18:11:09 <jdamisch> in the palm? no?
18:11:15 <onetom> u have 2 access it via os calls
18:11:41 <jdamisch> can you slam down on the bitmap?
18:12:20 <onetom> ?
18:12:25 <jdamisch> the only way to know would be to try
18:12:51 <onetom> no
18:13:00 <jdamisch> ?
18:13:01 <onetom> i didnt understand the question
18:13:09 <onetom> whats up w the bitmap?
18:13:16 <jdamisch> can you write directly to the bitmap
18:13:26 <jdamisch> the memory addresses which control the onscreen image
18:13:28 <jdamisch> in hardware
18:13:39 <onetom> aaaha, the framebuffer
18:13:47 <onetom> no, u cant afair
18:13:57 <jdamisch> darn
18:14:03 <onetom> exactly :)
18:14:11 <onetom> but im not sure
18:14:20 <jdamisch> so, i could get the palm, and hack my way into it
18:14:25 <onetom> but u can easily try it in pose
18:14:36 <jdamisch> it might not be portable across all palms, but i could do it on mine
18:15:01 <onetom> sure, i know what u would like 2
18:15:39 <onetom> but using the os putpixel is also sufficient in most cases
18:15:46 <jdamisch> right now i'll just read up on SF
18:15:50 <jdamisch> that's my project
18:15:52 <onetom> but!
18:16:20 <jdamisch> if i use the os putpixel then that will be slower than doing it directly myself
18:16:28 <onetom> afair, i saw a bitmap scroller program
18:16:55 <onetom> an opensource 1
18:17:06 <jdamisch> neat
18:17:30 <onetom> probably u can gain some ideas from it
18:18:01 <jdamisch> i've already written my own game in Forth on the Atari ST
18:18:04 <onetom> it also handled all the 4 colors of my palm IIIe
18:18:06 <onetom> or what..
18:18:22 <jdamisch> on that platform you were expected to write directly to the framebuffer if you wanted performance for games
18:18:39 <onetom> aha
18:18:49 <jdamisch> i know how to built blit routines
18:18:58 <jdamisch> or if you have a blitter i can directly set it up in hw
18:19:07 <jdamisch> it all depends what you have available
18:19:11 <jdamisch> the GBA has sprites
18:19:17 <jdamisch> Game Boy Advance
18:19:27 <onetom> thought so ;)
18:19:38 <jdamisch> CF on the GBA with some sort of expansion mod for storage memory would be phat
18:20:01 <jdamisch> maybe palm though
18:20:15 <jdamisch> that's not my direction at the time being
18:20:31 <jdamisch> what woudl this proposed forth system be used for?
18:21:39 <onetom> ?
18:21:48 <onetom> was it a poetical question?
18:21:51 <jdamisch> its just hypothetical
18:22:12 <onetom> so u r just askin yourself?
18:22:17 <jdamisch> I was wondering if the Forth that was proposed for the Zaurus would have a definite purpose now
18:23:15 <a7r> I'd use it for a calculator, and doing hacking.
18:23:25 <jdamisch> that is worthy
18:24:15 <jdamisch> maybe one could get a Forth for the OS, and then use it as a platform for hacking, like write the Forth-OS using the Forth you got for free or bought
18:24:39 <onetom> 4 example
18:25:10 <onetom> i also would like 2 use 4th 4 hw level hackin
18:25:13 <onetom> g
18:25:16 <jdamisch> get a Palm Pilot, and the get Quartus, and then see if you can find the screenbuffer and then go  255 swap !
18:25:17 <a7r> jdamisch: there's a good bootloader for the iPAQ,. I'd probably just hack it directly in assembly.
18:26:00 <onetom> i would b happy 2 see 4th-es integrated as a builtin development & debugging console in2 many applications
18:26:25 <onetom> into kernels, video & sound driver, mediaplayers... ;)
18:26:42 <a7r> onetom: what I want is to be able to plug the PDA into my laptop over serial, and get a forth development environment.. and then once that is there, develop the GUI and all that.
18:27:16 <onetom> jdamisch: u can try quartus 4 free... & try it inside pose, so u can easily type in2 it
18:27:44 <onetom> a7r: sweet dreams.. <sigh> ;)
18:27:52 <a7r> onetom: come on, it's doable. ;)
18:28:22 <a7r> you can store code blocks in FlashRAM sectors..
18:28:23 <onetom> a7r: still... its not done yet.. not as an opensrc prj :(
18:28:44 <onetom> anyway, i gotta go
18:28:49 <a7r> onetom: I put out the first real Linux distro for handhelds, so this doesn't seem insanely hard.
18:28:54 <jdamisch> brb
18:28:56 <onetom> aah
18:29:06 <onetom> that sounds good, a7r 
18:29:21 * onetom keeps polling the channel 2
18:29:28 <a7r> the bootloader for the iPAQ is quite good for development.
18:29:55 <onetom> freebsd bootloader also uses 4th afaik
18:30:59 <onetom> eg: http://www.freebsd.cz/pub/FreeBSD/branches/-current/src/sys/boot/forth/support.4th
18:31:26 <a7r> that's really interesting.
18:32:00 <onetom> i know
18:32:15 <onetom> but still.. i dont have time 2 play w it :(((
18:45:23 <jdamisch> about the bootloader, the words are between 2 lines and 20 lines of code with the majority of them 10 and less
18:45:32 <jdamisch> in just glancing at it
18:45:46 <jdamisch> lines of code i mean
18:54:47 <jdamisch> well, i'm going to split
18:54:51 <jdamisch> bye
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19:20:37 <cyberlok> hmmm
19:40:21 <onetom> mmmh
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22:19:11 <serg_ghost> 73!
22:19:37 <kc5tja> 73 means "goodbye," not "hello."  :)
22:20:29 <kc5tja> But I understand what you mean.  Hello!  :)
22:21:41 <kc5tja> I won't be staying too long.  I need to get to bed fairly soon.  Just stopping by to see what's going on.
22:22:26 <serg_ghost> :)))sorry, network i-face hang
22:22:55 <serg_ghost> i hadn't listen SW way too long
22:23:27 <serg_ghost> my RX rotten - damn oxyde capacitors !
22:23:34 <kc5tja> Heh; I'd like to listen more often, but I don't have a good station setup.  I don't receive nearly as much as I'd like.
22:23:56 <kc5tja> Right now I listen to Radio Taipei International a lot.
22:24:07 <kc5tja> Though, not recently -- I need sleep for final exams.
22:24:23 <serg_ghost> DC RX can be made in a few evenings, if yuor hands are straight
22:24:49 <kc5tja> The radio isn't the problem.  It's my physical location.
22:25:10 <kc5tja> I live in a valley, in a community with severe antenna restrictions, and my apartment is constructed out of aluminum 2x4s.
22:25:14 <kc5tja> E.g., I live in a faraday cage.
22:25:37 <serg_ghost> cage ???
22:25:48 <serg_ghost> a-a-h, took it !
22:25:54 <kc5tja> But someday I would like to try my hand at making a DC RX; I understand the audio on such radios is overwhelmingly good.
22:26:16 <serg_ghost> DC = direct conversion, i mean
22:26:20 * kc5tja nods
22:27:06 <kc5tja> I started on a DC RX project of my own a few years ago, but never finished.  I got as far as making the 66dB audio pre-amplifier.  Man, that worked *wonderful*, and I jury-rigged it with a crystal AM receiver to listen to a few local AM stations.  WOW, the audio was top-notch.
22:27:27 <kc5tja> I didn't skimp on the power consumption either.  Three transistors, +/- 12V rails (and 0V ground of course).
22:27:39 <kc5tja> Sounded very much like a tube amplifier.
22:27:44 <kc5tja> I was shocked.
22:28:27 <kc5tja> It was so good that I never bothered to finish the project.  I just listened to the local AM stations through it.  :)
22:29:52 <serg_ghost> whadda u think on regenerators, to listen AM broadcast
22:30:14 <kc5tja> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by regenerators.  You mean beat-frequency oscillators?
22:30:16 * serg_ghost has really flaky WinXP w/ network driver falling all the time
22:30:32 <kc5tja> Or do you mean regenerative receivers?
22:30:51 <serg_ghost> TRF w/ finely adjustable positive feedback
22:31:16 <kc5tja> OK, that'd be what we call a regenerative receiver.  I don't know -- I never built one.  I'd like to try one of those some day too.  :)
22:31:20 <kc5tja> Too many projects, so little time.
22:31:23 <kc5tja> (and money)
22:31:43 <kc5tja> However, I do have to admit, of all the times I tried to make an oscillator, they've NEVER worked.
22:31:43 <serg_ghost> BFO suxx as all superheterodyne
22:31:53 <serg_ghost> ????
22:32:11 <kc5tja> All my oscillators make wonderful amplifiers.  And all my amplifiers work wonderfully well as ... amplifiers.  :)
22:32:29 * kc5tja has not yet ever made an oscillator that actually worked, intentionally or unintentionally.
22:33:08 * kc5tja likes superhets, because they're the only way to get single side-band with the sharp bandwidths you need on, say, amateur radio frequencies.
22:33:31 <kc5tja> DC SSB transceivers do exist, but they don't have as good sideband filtration.
22:33:44 <kc5tja> (that, and they're very complex to make)
22:33:57 <serg_ghost> i mean home built superhet
22:34:16 <serg_ghost> too complex RX compared to DC or regen
22:34:22 <kc5tja> Oh, yeah, all my superhet rigs are commercial.  :)  Currently using a TS-2000 for my base-station.
22:34:49 <kc5tja> You know what really irks the bloody heck out of me?
22:34:59 <serg_ghost> and common radios, all suxx
22:35:01 <serg_ghost> ?
22:35:06 <kc5tja> How many years have ham radio operators had to put up with commercial broadcast stations on the 40m and 20m bands?  Decades!
22:35:21 <kc5tja> So why do *all* the commercial rigs today offer only **ONE** adjustible notch filter?!
22:35:38 <kc5tja> That's one thing I'd like to make for myself someday, is a box with at least 4 notch filters.
22:36:22 <kc5tja> And then there is local interference, like from computers and such.
22:36:34 <kc5tja> Especially these DSP rigs -- there's no excuse.  :)
22:37:59 <serg_ghost> what is most complex device you had built ?
22:38:15 <kc5tja> Currently, just the 66dB audio amplifier I described above.
22:38:38 <kc5tja> I tried to build the VFO for the tuner, but I just couldn't get it to oscillate.
22:39:12 <serg_ghost> how did u came to conclusion it did not work ?
22:39:15 <kc5tja> It got to the point where I was seriously considering using a 555 timer chip to generate a square wave, and just filter off the harmonics to get my desired higher frequencies.
22:39:23 <serg_ghost> maybe, it worked way off designed freq ?
22:39:34 <kc5tja> Yeah, it was way off frequency -- 0Hz.
22:39:40 <kc5tja> It just plain didn't oscillate.
22:40:02 <serg_ghost> how did u control ? oscillograf ? freq meter ?
22:40:03 <kc5tja> I tried Colpitts and Hartley configurations, and a couple others whose name I forget.  None of them worked for me.
22:40:40 <kc5tja> I measured it with a 500MHz-bandwidth oscilloscope.
22:41:09 <kc5tja> I controlled it with a variable capacitor.
22:42:12 * serg_ghost never heard of such kiddish trouble from anyone
22:42:31 <serg_ghost> ask one to debug it 4 you 
22:42:55 <serg_ghost> pre check all parts :(
22:43:03 <kc5tja> All the parts are right.
22:43:23 <kc5tja> The Colpitts oscillator I took right out of the ARRL Handbook.
22:43:29 <kc5tja> The circuit is known to be a correct circuit.
22:43:37 <kc5tja> Still, it didn't oscillate for me.
22:44:00 <kc5tja> But it's not important now.
22:44:11 <serg_ghost> "is known ?" can you decide it yourself ? maybe, print error ?
22:44:15 <kc5tja> It's been a few years, and I no longer have the circuit anymore.
22:44:31 <kc5tja> The circuit has undergone peer review since the early 70s.
22:44:46 <kc5tja> I think it's pretty safe bet that it's a known-good circuit design.
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22:50:15 <kc5tja> OK, that was fun.  I hate end-to-end acknowledged networks.  :(
22:52:37 <serg_ghost> i don't blame design, but why not some print-house ass-eyes reverse arrow on a transistor or a dot on coupling coil ?
22:52:49 <serg_ghost> just by hand mistake
22:53:16 <kc5tja> As I indicated, it's been peer-reviewed at least since the 70s.  Someone would definitely have caught any errors by then.
22:53:30 <kc5tja> The ARRL has pretty good print standards.
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22:53:40 * serg_ghost seen short circuit in TV linescan on diagram in learning book
22:54:08 <kc5tja> Well, that's not the ham radio community.  Lots of people build circuits and use the ARRL Handbook as a cookbook of sorts for their circuits.
22:54:23 <kc5tja> If there's a problem with a circuit, as with open source software, it will get corrected at least by next year's publication.
22:55:05 <serg_ghost> what power do you feed to u'r device ?
22:55:15 <serg_ghost> on what base do you make it ?
22:55:24 <serg_ghost> maybe, parasite R or C ?
22:55:26 <kc5tja> I used to have a +12V and -12V supply for it.
22:55:46 <serg_ghost> how good ? rectifier or battery ?
22:56:39 <kc5tja> Commercial, lab-grade power supply, relatively cheap pass-transistor type.  But switch-mode power supplies today are good enough to work for oscillator work as well, with a 7809 or 7805 put on the line.
22:57:04 <kc5tja> I did try it using a battery though, and the same results.
22:57:21 <kc5tja> I'm not at all sure why it didn't work.  At this point it could be anything.
22:57:26 <kc5tja> However, it's a non-issue now.
22:57:40 <kc5tja> The circuit is destroyed/gone, and I have no further interest in persuing the project any further now.
22:57:57 * kc5tja just doesn't have the time for it anymore.
22:58:12 <kc5tja> Or the space for the equipment and parts.
22:59:44 <kc5tja> I also tried making a transistor mixer (using a benchtop frequency generator as the signal source) and that definitely didn't work.  :(  Again, I have no idea why.  But I know that mixers have pretty strict input signal power level requirements, so it's quite possible i was overdriving it.
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23:05:43 <kc5tja> Oh well.  I need to get to bed.
23:05:52 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.05.19