00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.05.10
00:00:00 <ianni> im a young programmer... but i will turn to irc before i turn to either of my much older bosses, who are both programmers
00:00:12 <ianni> my mentors, if anywhere, are the coders i know through the internet
00:00:25 <ianni> cause they know what they're doing... unlike the people in the real world... heh
00:00:26 <jdamisch> interesting
00:00:36 <jdamisch> lol
00:01:00 <ianni> my bosses have never implemented a serious high-load app. some people online have done it hundreds of times
00:01:05 <ianni> hehe
00:01:12 <ianni> who can i better learn from?
00:01:15 <ianni> :P
00:01:37 <jdamisch> i don't know?
00:01:40 <jdamisch> :^)
00:01:50 <ianni> me either, but both is best
00:02:09 <jdamisch> your bosses are mostly managers?
00:02:15 <jdamisch> what code have they written?
00:02:23 <ianni> not really... even my CEO writes fortran for production
00:02:26 <ianni> small company
00:02:33 <jdamisch> ok
00:02:41 <ianni> they write database and graphics code.. nothing too stupid
00:02:56 <jdamisch> do they do that decient?
00:02:57 <ianni> but design and a working script are two different things
00:03:12 <ianni> yea, they're not dumb.. know more than me about some things, especially finance and math
00:03:18 <jdamisch> you need to get it to work
00:03:19 <ianni> but programming... nah
00:03:34 <ianni> theyre good, but the people on efnet are the best i know of
00:03:43 <jdamisch> i see
00:03:49 <ianni> been an invaluable resource really
00:04:19 <jdamisch> thats good
00:04:30 <jdamisch> do you use Forth at all?
00:04:47 <ianni> no, i'm learning. im a high-level language weenie most of the time
00:04:59 <ianni> but im now taking a very strong interest in forth
00:05:03 <jdamisch> Forth is level transendent
00:05:05 <ianni> and C and assembler and stuff
00:05:07 <ianni> eah
00:05:14 <ianni> there is nothing else quite like it
00:05:20 <ianni> 4th level !
00:05:45 <jdamisch> You can use the syntax sculption techniques to build up something resembling a spoken language
00:06:02 <jdamisch> you can go from banging bits to talking in high table abstractions and AI
00:06:15 <jdamisch> its a polymorphic language
00:06:17 <ianni> yeh, its both high and low level.. beautiful really
00:06:35 <ianni> the philosophy is what got me interested
00:06:35 <jdamisch> do you use DOES>
00:06:45 <ianni> no, not quite yet: I'm almost there now though!
00:06:57 <jdamisch> its a good word to have
00:07:01 <ianni> ive been learning the internals recently
00:07:10 <ianni> its all starting to become clear
00:07:20 <ianni> learning ' and stuff
00:07:23 <ianni> ;)
00:07:33 <jdamisch> they have ' and [']
00:07:40 <jdamisch> it confused me at first a little
00:07:41 <ianni> before it was just learning to think in forth, in the stacks
00:07:46 <ianni> yeah, i understand ['] now
00:07:55 <ianni> and the interpreter/compile-time
00:08:06 <ianni> it is simple really... just have to wrap your head around
00:08:08 <jdamisch> You really do need 2 stacks in Forth
00:08:17 <ianni> reading Starting Forth by brodie... been a help
00:08:24 <jdamisch> its different
00:08:40 <jdamisch> >R R@ R>
00:08:51 <jdamisch> I've decided to start expressing words in upper case
00:08:53 <ianni> it seems analogous to the way other things work... in C and stuff you have a stack and the heap
00:09:07 <ianni> isnt the return stack like a heap?
00:09:24 <jdamisch> if you didn't have the Parameter stack then you would need something else like a heap or something
00:09:35 <jdamisch> not exactly
00:09:39 <jdamisch> i would say no
00:09:41 <ianni> parameter stack != data stack?
00:09:55 <ianni> well, i wouldnt conclude they are equal, but i see some similarities in approach anyway
00:10:07 <ianni> 2's
00:10:13 <jdamisch> PARAMETER-STACK DATA-STACK <> . -1
00:10:34 <jdamisch> seems like you need both arms and legs
00:11:00 <ianni> param stack = return stack?
00:11:05 <ianni> r> r@ etc
00:11:07 <jdamisch> of one sort or another :^)
00:11:17 <ianni> hm
00:11:45 <jdamisch> the parameter stack can be used for temporary storage inside of a word only
00:11:59 <jdamisch> well, it holds return addresses
00:12:55 <jdamisch> the one stack in C is used to hold both return information and paramters 
00:12:58 <jdamisch> i'm pretty sure of that
00:13:15 <jdamisch> so, the heap would be used for storage of large objects
00:13:27 <jdamisch> and other large more complex structures and bodies
00:14:04 <jdamisch> In Forth you have a Parameter Stack and a Return stack and they are distinct
00:14:58 <jdamisch> in Forth those large structures can be in the dictionary, or a heap
00:15:04 <jdamisch> ANS has heap words
00:17:19 <ianni> oh right
00:17:46 <ianni> i guess that makes sense.. return stack isnt really allocating any chunks of memory really anyway
00:18:03 <ianni> gonna be really small in fact, i imagine
00:18:53 <jdamisch> both stacks can be small
00:19:02 <ianni> im getting the hang of it... im much farther along than when i started
00:19:10 <jdamisch> both stacks can be like 4 cells each, but then you have to code for that
00:19:16 <jdamisch> good
00:19:18 <ianni> right
00:19:51 <ianni> yeah, so my goal now is to write a forth for some architecture
00:20:03 <jdamisch> I like I like my stacks deeper than that
00:20:08 <ianni> prolly just x86 or ppc, but i want a feel for the underlying machine and assembler
00:20:20 <ianni> the latter for the former obviously
00:20:31 <jdamisch> it sounds like a great learning experience to me
00:20:55 <ianni> yuppp.. you learn algebra well when you take calculus. and arithmetic well once you've used algebra 
00:21:48 <ianni> and it seems all the forthers highly encourage it and it'd force you to understand it all to have to write the system ;P
00:23:03 <jdamisch> every Forth programmer has his or her own Forth
00:23:08 <jdamisch> even I have one
00:23:28 <jdamisch> but its conceptual and experimental and anything in it can change at any time
00:23:39 <jdamisch> i haven't actually gotten down to coding one yet
00:25:15 <jdamisch> I think that it would be treaded interpreted
00:25:21 <jdamisch> threaded interpreted
00:25:23 <jdamisch> not inlining
00:26:50 <ianni> yeah, it seems to fit perfectly with the philosophy of forth, for each to have his own
00:27:09 <jdamisch> but then we have a standard
00:27:11 <ianni> after all its just you and the computer... so thats my goal
00:27:29 <jdamisch> so, we have something to look to if we want to try to be somewhat portable
00:27:44 <jdamisch> many people choose a standard of some sort or another
00:27:57 <jdamisch> others just start out something new
00:28:29 <jdamisch> will your Forth be ANS?
00:29:00 <jdamisch> i've already decided that mine won't
00:29:13 <jdamisch> But I'll buy an ANS Forth if its worthy enough
00:30:03 <ianni> well.. i will work towards the spec, im sure.. any deviation i will be aware of and have a reason for
00:30:26 <ianni> i trust chuck/whoever made the ans spec's design over my own
00:30:29 <ianni> hehe
00:30:49 <jdamisch> Chuck didn't design ANS
00:30:53 <ianni> i figured not
00:31:01 <ianni> what is ANS anyway
00:31:13 <jdamisch> American National Standard
00:31:21 <ianni> i meant '/' as 'both' or 'either/or'
00:31:29 <jdamisch> ok
00:31:37 <jdamisch> It was done by a group of people
00:31:57 <ianni> colorforth is interesting ;)
00:32:11 <jdamisch> My history of the Standard is not very high
00:32:16 <ianni> wonder what relation they have to Forth Inc
00:32:24 <ianni> any?
00:32:31 <ianni> or just circumstantial
00:32:43 <jdamisch> Elizabeth helped work on the ANS standard I'm sure
00:33:00 <ianni> dont know her...
00:33:28 <jdamisch> I met her only once
00:33:32 <jdamisch> it was a a trade show
00:33:56 <ianni> im sure you had an interesting chat ;)
00:33:59 <jdamisch> Elizabeth Rather, President of Forth Inc.
00:34:21 <jdamisch> and I met Steve Argwal
00:34:41 <jdamisch> he was at the Forth Inc Booth
00:34:55 <jdamisch> I still have a souviner from that trade show
00:35:06 <jdamisch> I wonder what I could get for it if I put it up on E-Bay
00:35:17 <ianni> i only discovered forth through IRC i think, indirectly
00:35:28 <ianni> nobody i know does it in real life
00:35:35 <ianni> nor had i ever heard of it
00:35:46 <ianni> heh
00:35:48 <jdamisch> I know people who do it in real life
00:35:49 <ianni> long time ago?
00:35:55 <jdamisch> now
00:35:57 <ianni> well, the people i know here do it in real life.. that counts 
00:35:57 <jdamisch> today
00:36:05 <ianni> nah i mean the show ;)
00:36:55 <jdamisch> :^)
00:37:21 <ianni> im glad to have a chance to be interested in this sort of thing at such a young age.. i may actually have the chance to become anywhere near as clued in as everyone else after a decade or two 
00:37:27 <ianni> heheheh
00:37:51 <jdamisch> that's a thought
00:38:03 <jdamisch> well, learn Forth then, it will show you computer science
00:38:39 <ianni> yeah, i have learned a good portion and it has helped me a lot already
00:39:00 <ianni> to think in machine terms as i should 
00:39:13 <ianni> since i am working with a machine..
00:39:23 <jdamisch> right
00:40:19 <ianni> anyway, dont be too turned off by the quietness in here, sometimes there are rather good spurts of conversation.. just not at this hour usually i dont think ;)
00:40:38 <jdamisch> ok
00:40:47 <ianni> good night
00:40:53 <jdamisch> good night
00:42:00 <jdamisch> i will find out the more active times then
00:42:16 <jdamisch> time with a higher change of seeing text
00:43:10 <ianni> yes it is much more useful then. 
00:43:12 <ianni> :)
00:43:49 <jdamisch> i'm going to
00:43:53 <jdamisch> goodnight
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11:33:17 <Serg_Penguin> hi
11:33:26 <Serg_Penguin> just 4 few mins - modem
11:44:11 <Robert> Hi Serg_Penguin 
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12:03:14 <Robert> Hi kc5tja
12:03:29 <PoppaVic> lo kc5tja
12:04:45 <mur> kczxcrefiveyah
12:05:06 <mur> hello it's blur here
12:05:09 <mur> >:)
12:05:27 <kc5tja> Dude, it's just a ham radio callsign.
12:05:34 <mur> Just!?
12:05:36 <mur> it's life
12:05:41 <mur> >:P
12:05:46 <kc5tja> It's like any other radio call sign you might have heard.
12:05:58 <mur> my dad certainly has one but i dont know what it is
12:06:03 <kc5tja> Yes, it's life, and ham radio is a real-life hobby of mine.
12:06:12 <mur> not bad one
12:06:18 <mur> i once wanted to be
12:06:26 <mur> but i have given up the technology
12:06:30 <kc5tja> Anyway, hello.
12:06:40 <mur> and concentrated on contents and creativity
12:08:04 <kc5tja> I have a multi-faceted system of hobbies, which center on creativity (though I haven't produced much of late, being so burnt out), communications (ham radio, Internet), research and development of renewable energy sources (Tesla turbines, pop-pop engines, Stirling engines), etc.
12:08:42 <kc5tja> Even political and economic science (Stone society research).
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12:15:57 <PoppaVic> that __attribute__ stuff is sorta'.. interesting.
12:16:01 <fridge> cool
12:16:29 <fridge> chuck is moving colorForth to boot off a USB instead of floppy drives
12:21:59 --- nick: semtex -> Speuler
12:22:37 <kc5tja> fridge: Cool.  Maybe I can boot ColorForth off my digital camera then.  :)
12:22:49 <PoppaVic> only in B&W
12:24:44 <kc5tja> OK, I need to go lie down again.  
12:24:53 <kc5tja> bbiab
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14:01:53 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:01:57 <Robert> Hi TheBlueWizard :)
14:02:05 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ramnull
14:03:26 * Robert feels ignored. Or maybe that was just the nickname completion going mad? ;)
14:03:51 <TheBlueWizard> oops!!!
14:03:56 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
14:04:07 <TheBlueWizard> you can blame it on tab key :)
14:04:18 * TheBlueWizard grrs at the tab key
14:04:22 <Robert> :)
14:05:12 * TheBlueWizard hmms re: the thought of nickname competition...and nahs the thought
14:05:50 <Robert> Nickname completion rules when someone decides to use a nick like TheBlueWizard.
14:06:12 <Robert> Robert is short enough to type, if you're not afraid of some work. But TheBlueWizard... no way!
14:06:33 <TheBlueWizard> then use tab key to compete that nick :)
14:06:50 <Robert> I do... And hope that tcn isn't here.
14:07:25 <TheBlueWizard> then type 'th' and there you go....my sin was to type 'r' and press the tab key...that's why :)
14:10:07 <Robert> I _am_ afraid of some work ;)
14:10:55 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha ha...no work, no reward ;)
14:12:08 <Robert> Oh, so that's why nothing ever gets coded here? Damn.
14:12:38 <TheBlueWizard> :)
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14:20:17 * TheBlueWizard sighs
14:35:45 <ramnull> ib
14:35:58 <TheBlueWizard> ib?
14:36:07 <ramnull> I'm back.
14:36:55 <TheBlueWizard> ah :)
14:37:08 <ramnull> Heh.
14:38:01 <ramnull> Been busy translating some more assembler code into Forth code.
14:38:18 <ramnull> This is tedious as hell.
14:38:38 <ramnull> I gotta start using the stack more.
14:39:04 <TheBlueWizard> ah
14:39:34 <TheBlueWizard> that's hard, at first....just get it working then finetune it...it helps that way
14:39:53 * ramnull nods
14:40:30 <ramnull> The code will shrink by an order of magnitude on the next revision.
14:41:10 <ramnull> You good at assembler?
14:42:11 <TheBlueWizard> yes...though it has been a long while
14:43:16 <ramnull> Wanna look at the files I'm working on?
14:43:22 <ramnull> Using IsForth.
14:46:17 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...how big? what am I s'posed to do with it?
14:48:56 <ramnull> Just looking for pointers
14:49:13 <ramnull> Just a couple of text files.
14:49:55 <ramnull> I'm kind of a greenhorn.
14:50:39 <ramnull> Being paged
14:50:43 <ramnull> be right back.
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15:30:28 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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18:06:16 <Speuler> 'morning
18:06:21 <Robert> Hi Speuler 
18:06:34 <Speuler> ha, the_rob
18:06:51 <Speuler> what's new ?
18:07:06 <Robert> Uh.. uh.. that's a good question.
18:07:27 <Speuler> don't strain yourself :)
18:08:28 <Speuler> how's commonforth progressing ?
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18:09:13 <Robert> Commonforth?
18:09:25 <Speuler> standard-neutral forth
18:09:33 <Speuler> best of all worlds
18:11:01 * Speuler guesses it is destined to be doomed because more than two people can't agree on a common word set
18:11:15 <Robert> Oh.
18:11:28 <Robert> We can mix everything, and look what happens.
18:11:48 <Robert> Whenever two persons fight about something, the one with the knife wins.
18:12:01 <Speuler> i'm just working on  word
18:12:23 <Speuler> but i tend to deviate from any standard with that
18:12:37 <Speuler> i like   ( c -- a n )
18:13:04 <Speuler> and no obligation to put a at here
18:13:20 <Speuler> this would break existing code
18:13:47 <Speuler> instead, i like to have a point into input buffer
18:14:26 <Speuler> that way i can have several strings, interactively, without the second string overwriting the first
18:15:14 <Speuler> convention to put word at here us meaningless anyway with seperate headers
18:15:17 <Speuler> is
18:16:05 <Speuler> and i dislike having to put leading count byte at first byte of string
18:16:36 <Speuler> when in about all cases you'd read it from there again
18:16:47 <Speuler> thus i like to leave count on stack
18:17:43 <Speuler> maybe i should give it a different name, and implement word to call upon that word, and copy string to here, with leading count byte
18:20:08 <Speuler> oh
18:20:14 <Speuler> there's parse in ans
18:20:26 <Speuler> which does about what i intended word to do
18:22:07 <Robert> Hm.
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19:36:45 <Sonarman> just wondering, what's your guys' opinion on pforth vs gforth vs pfe?
19:42:28 <kc5tja> I use gforth, but I haven't used the others.
19:42:44 <Sonarman> ok
19:42:45 <Sonarman> thanks
19:43:06 <kc5tja> I hear they're pretty good though.
19:43:29 <kc5tja> I don't do anything super-serious in Forth under Linux, so gforth is convenient enough for my needs.
19:43:39 <kc5tja> More serious forthers use pfe or pforth, IIRC.
19:43:48 <jstahuman> does anyone here actually use colorforth or similar boot forth?
19:44:31 <Sonarman> kc5tja: thanks.
19:45:09 <Sonarman> jstahuman: ah!  thanks for reminding me, i've been meaning to try out colorforth, now that i've got a PC system :)
19:45:44 <jstahuman> Sonarman: I doubt the original will boot though, but you can find a few patched colorforths which should
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19:45:58 <Sonarman> thanks for the tip
19:46:17 <jstahuman> I also think someone wrote an OS for PC in forth
19:46:40 <Sonarman> yeah, like retro.tunes.org
19:46:55 <jstahuman> that's the one
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19:47:39 <Sonarman> :)
19:47:55 <Sonarman> i forgot about forth, this is cool!
19:48:11 <ianni> heh :P
19:50:08 <Sonarman> anyone else have an opinion on gforth vs. pforth vs. pfe? :)
19:56:28 <Speuler> Sonarman: what do you intend to use any of those for ?
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20:24:56 <futhin> :D
20:25:11 <futhin> hi kc5tja :)
20:25:30 <futhin> how is our dear ole channel doing this warm night?
20:25:42 <futhin> anybody awake? :P
20:27:59 <Sonarman> Speuler: nothing in particular, just curious if there were any strong opinions :)
20:30:49 * kc5tja is -- I'm also eating.
20:36:21 <Speuler> Sonarman: gforth has a decent tutorial. pfe comes with lots of examples. pforth is less bloated
20:36:36 <Sonarman> thanks Speuler 
20:37:06 <Speuler> np
20:39:58 <Sonarman> anybody here know the (English) word that means "changing each bit in something to it's opposite" (e.g. 11001100 -> 00110011)
20:41:33 <Sonarman> the ~ operator in C
20:42:05 <Speuler> toggle
20:42:14 <Speuler> or invert
20:42:30 <Sonarman> ah!  invert, that was the one i was looking for, thanks!
20:42:32 <Speuler> complement
20:45:03 <Sonarman> so, now that i know the right word :)  does "not" in forth invert the top number on the stack?  (sorry, it's just that i saw it in the topic for #openBIOS and gforth doesn't have it)
20:45:50 <Speuler> not in fig forth was different from not in f83. ans dropped not alltogether
20:46:28 <Speuler> it is choice of user if he wants   : not  invert ;  or  : not 0=  ;
20:46:50 <Sonarman> ok, thanks
20:48:35 <Sonarman> so i'm guessing that the "not" in "hex 2b dup not or" is invert, and that that pile of code puts 0xff... on the stack.  is that right?   (sorry i am so annoying)
20:49:25 <Speuler> 2b dup not or,  same as   2b  2b not or  . refers to a shakespeare quote    
20:49:38 <Speuler> to be or not to be
20:50:04 <Speuler> should be 0=
20:50:34 <Speuler> as there's no bitmap in the operands
20:51:44 <Speuler> king lear
20:52:59 <Speuler> otherwise you could shorten that line to    -1
21:38:19 <Klaw> maybe you should grab the rest of the quote
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23:54:54 <Sonarman> i s'pose you could say that i am a bit clueless :-)
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