00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.05.05
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03:18:22 <serg> re
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04:42:31 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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04:46:09 <ASau> Good evening!
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04:56:56 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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06:03:12 <serg_ghost> hi ASau !!!
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06:03:52 <serg> damn, he gone...
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07:28:00 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
07:36:18 <PoppaVic> Fractal: Firtst coffee of the day, a headache, and an email from kc* about the "commonFORTH" idea - with all his Oberon wish-list ideas ;-) I have-no-idea what all it meant ;-)
07:36:33 <Fractal> Heh
07:36:44 <Fractal> Oberon?
07:36:58 <PoppaVic> Don't ask me - it looks like perverse pascal and modula
07:37:15 <Fractal> Ya well he's an interesting guy...
07:37:26 <Fractal> Heh
07:37:45 <PoppaVic> I wish I could get the email addr of all the interested parties - and figure out how to tell mozilla to consider them a "mailing list" *sigh*
07:38:17 <PoppaVic> I don't think he's "wrong", but I think it's 1) too soon; 2) a lexicon/module for the future.
07:38:18 <Fractal> Copy/paste a comma separated list of them into the to field?
07:38:43 <PoppaVic> dunno' - never had much luck playing with it - so I avoid making it crazy ;-)
07:38:54 <Fractal> Heh ok
07:40:09 <PoppaVic> btw, I can shoot you that doc I sent them the other day - with a synopsis of what we'd discussed and the ideas that had perked thru me at the time. You dcc?
07:41:02 <Fractal> Ya, sure...
07:41:04 <Fractal> .txt?
07:41:29 <PoppaVic> yes.
07:41:48 <Fractal> Thanks
07:42:14 <PoppaVic> Sure.. Bear in mind: Granted, I ain't kind to ANS - and Love my C - but I tried to be as unoffesive as possible ;-)
07:42:31 <Fractal> Heh, ok
07:42:38 <PoppaVic> It has my email addr in it, too - so feel free to reply back.
07:42:46 <Fractal> OK
07:42:47 <PoppaVic> And, yes - we can talk in here too.
07:44:26 <Fractal> So... You are proposing a community developed forth implementation and standard?
07:44:34 <PoppaVic> yeah, I think so.
07:45:26 <Fractal> I do forth programming on sun and various m68ks... Alignment is a serious issue.
07:45:34 <PoppaVic> I'd also note the iso/ANS guys have to get busy soon anyway, iirc.. But, shoot - we should be able to come up with something good.
07:45:59 <PoppaVic> Yeah, I can't keep track of the alignment issue at all - it's even worse when I peek at the GForth code and asm.
07:47:13 <Fractal> : align begin here 4 mod while 0 , repeat ;
07:47:14 <Fractal> Easy. :)
07:47:28 <PoppaVic> I'd rather see it encapsulated & leave us alone.
07:48:02 <Robert> "4 mod".. that hurts. :P
07:48:07 <Fractal> Ya, I'd be interested in possibly exploring this.
07:48:13 <Fractal> cellsize then
07:48:13 <PoppaVic> and, unless I miss my guess, that colon-def is assuming 32 bits.
07:48:24 <Fractal> It doesn't have to...
07:48:33 <PoppaVic> I know - I'm diddling a file right now.
07:48:56 <Fractal> Ya, I'd be interested in exploring this...
07:49:01 <PoppaVic> Excellent.
07:49:20 <Fractal> I think calling a forth might be a bit of a mistake, but we'll see...
07:49:32 <Fractal> Forth has a deeply rooted religion...
07:49:52 <PoppaVic> As I mention in the text, I'm sure I've missed things or got the order sideways, as well as left out a lot that you other guys might also see as sorta' "required".
07:50:10 <PoppaVic> Yes, I know - I left the church 20 years ago, remember? ;-)
07:50:17 <Fractal> Heh
07:50:27 <Fractal> *standard dictionary header format*
07:50:45 <PoppaVic> Well, as they often argue in the uselessnet lang.forth, no one "owns the name" <shrug>
07:50:57 <Fractal> True, I suppose...
07:51:07 <PoppaVic> what about headers?
07:51:14 <Robert> I can't pronounce it.
07:51:40 <PoppaVic> "it": eeeey-(t)it
07:51:42 <Fractal> Well, all forths have different header formats and it can be a pain...
07:51:51 <PoppaVic> right.. 
07:52:36 <PoppaVic> We have to come up with a completely abstract method of dealing with them for the "standard" and implement it so that we not only demonstrate it, but it can be used almost anywhere - what fun.
07:53:02 <Fractal> Ya, your threading method will also be a large level of contention..
07:53:34 <PoppaVic> what method? heh - Even I dunno' what all you guys can envision.
07:53:58 <Fractal> I think it would be a mistake to ignore optimization completely...
07:54:07 <PoppaVic> What/how?
07:54:40 <Fractal> Particularly if a subroutine threading method is used...
07:55:17 <PoppaVic> Oh. All I meant was to shut up the folks that scream "optimize" and "speed" all the time - we are nowhere near there.
07:55:37 <Fractal> True, I suppose...
07:56:01 <PoppaVic> Plus, I still believe the realm of "optimize" may be for what we tend to call "primitives" and perhaps in turnkey-apps.
07:56:52 <Fractal> People always say "ANS is bloated" "ANS' core is too large", etc, etc... ANS actually specifies a more minimal core than F83 did. ANS is in fact a very careful, minimalistic forth standard.
07:56:54 <PoppaVic> Well, I hope it's true anyway - there is no point in concentrating on making something fast, faster, fastest at this stage of the idea.
07:57:48 <PoppaVic> Well, I certainly plan to steal from them, since it's already in the comp & my ancient forth shit is all paper. - But, I think we can segregate better.
07:58:09 <Fractal> Maybe...
07:59:15 <Fractal> Ya, its an interesting idea...
08:00:15 <PoppaVic> I also think we have gotta' do something serious about headers, vocs, modules, getting access to libraries, and even creating objects or at least source for compiling to objects/libs/rom, whatever.
08:00:17 <Fractal> I think it would be fun to seriously compete in ICFP function programming contest with forth
08:00:19 <Fractal> http://www.ai.mit.edu/extra/icfp-contest/
08:00:29 <Fractal> A C program won last year, you know.
08:00:42 <PoppaVic> I dunno the contest, but I believe it ;-)
08:03:41 <Fractal> Functional, sorry
08:03:49 <Fractal> Ya, kind of an interesting contest..
08:03:52 <PoppaVic> yeah, I saw that. s'ok
08:04:05 <Fractal> But anyways ya, lets talk to the rest of #forth
08:04:06 <Fractal> About this
08:04:11 <PoppaVic> Sure.
08:04:24 * PoppaVic wishes he could have Xchat log this channel only, today..
08:04:29 <Fractal> Most of #forth seems to hate me though so you'll have to do the talking. :)
08:04:44 <PoppaVic> haha - Me? The "C-Guy"? ;-)
08:05:10 <Fractal> Heh try being a haskell guy.
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08:05:27 <PoppaVic> well, kc* and gil* got copies, and - kc* sent a lot of oberon-wishes, but gil is - as usual - sorta' a hang-fire ;-)
08:05:30 <Robert> Hi I440r.
08:05:44 <Fractal> Ah, just the man you'll want to talk to, I440r 
08:05:56 <PoppaVic> Fractal: you can shoot I440r a copy if you want.
08:06:11 <Fractal> I can't DCC out...
08:07:20 <I440r> a copy of what ?
08:07:23 <I440r> email it
08:07:29 <I440r> unless its spam :)
08:07:49 <Fractal> PoppaVic is considering a new, community-developed forth standard
08:07:58 <Robert> Cool.
08:08:08 <Fractal> OK, I'll give a URL
08:08:13 <PoppaVic> heh
08:08:14 <I440r> im opposed to standards
08:08:18 <Robert> Someone will get killed.. but I guess you know that.
08:08:31 <I440r> killed ?
08:08:31 <PoppaVic> "Death is only the Beginning" ;-)
08:08:37 <Fractal> www.hcsw.org/CommonFORTH.txt
08:08:46 <Robert> I440r: Forth fights are dangerous.
08:08:47 <PoppaVic> oh, very nice - cool
08:08:57 <Robert> I440r: Lots of fanati..er, people who beleive in their own solution.
08:09:58 <I440r> im not opposed to people implementing their own standards heh ill even help
08:10:12 <I440r> isforth is absolutely 100% in line with the ISFORTH standard :)
08:10:27 <Robert> Yeah.. but everyone has their own standards.
08:10:32 <I440r> good
08:10:36 <Robert> Yep.
08:10:46 <Fractal> That makes it difficult for anyone who didn't write ISFORTH to code in...
08:11:21 <Robert> That's why I440r hangs in #forth so much :)
08:11:34 <Fractal> Heh
08:11:54 <I440r> im hardly ever in here these days, your the channel idler not me :)
08:12:48 <Robert> I guess I'll have to write a Forth to support, then!
08:12:53 <I440r> :)
08:12:58 * I440r waits :)
08:14:52 <Robert> I am writing it...
08:15:12 <Robert> Guess it'll take a little while. But then I can code Forth on my little AVR board. :)
08:15:15 <I440r> sure... sure :)
08:15:25 <Robert> 256kB flash card.. mmm, that's mass storage!
08:15:33 <I440r> wow :)
08:15:36 <I440r> that IS!!!
08:16:01 <Robert> Writing Forth compiler + simulator for it in IsForth :)
08:16:07 <I440r> 2 or 3k for the forth kernel and the rest for apps :)
08:16:07 <Robert> Or, I already wrote those.
08:18:20 <I440r> are they as good as your PONG game ??? heh
08:18:32 <I440r> thats gona stay in isforth permanantly now :)
08:19:07 <Robert> Nooo! :P
08:19:22 <Robert> I sure hope they're better than that piece of junk.
08:19:26 <I440r> heh
08:19:31 <Robert> I mean.. it might be cute code, but you can't play it.
08:19:45 <I440r> itsnt it about time you updated teh pong game ?
08:20:44 <Robert> When I can get some decent input, maybe ;)
08:21:10 <Robert> But I think I'll concentrate on this Forth compiler instead.
08:21:35 <Robert> I've always wanted to code Forth on a tiny computer system.
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08:23:35 <PoppaVic> cp/m or a t/s-1000, or a C64 ;-)
08:24:39 <I440r> c64 is good
08:25:57 <Robert> I have a C128, a CP/M based x86 computer... but they're big, This is just a little card.
08:26:02 <Robert> Much more handy
08:33:47 <I440r> i didnt like the c128 as much as i liked the c64
08:34:19 <Robert> Never used a C64.. other than the C128 in C64 emulation mode :P
08:34:55 <I440r> i liked the c128's disk drive tho, its double sided and you can use it in single side mode using EITHER head heh
08:35:03 <I440r> you can create funky disks with that heh
08:39:21 <serg> hi I440r  !!!
08:39:47 <I440r> hi serg!
08:39:53 <Robert> Hi serg
08:44:00 <mur> hello serg pingunator
08:45:03 <serg> this silly nick stuck from the time i was making Linux-driven inet-kafe 4 my previous work
08:45:13 <serg> i left them - they paid way too little
08:46:08 <I440r> :)
08:46:37 <mur> first net-cafe was finnish. it bankrupted because people did not buy drinks :)
08:46:52 <Robert> Heh
08:47:07 <Robert> But finns always drink and get violent, we alll know that.
08:47:33 <serg> do they get POSTAL :)))
08:47:36 <serg> ?
08:47:54 <I440r> lol
08:50:33 * serg dreams of UNviolent h00ligan simulator
08:50:47 <mur> Robert naah, no one notices if it is norwegian or finnish, that's why all sober are considered norwegians and drunken finns. it is swedish - dannish conscripracy to make them look more civilised!
08:52:12 <serg> no fucking fun :((( .RU is _sinking_ in VODKA
08:52:44 <serg> my uncle died of this, and many people around suffer hard
08:53:55 * mur knows the dangers of alcohol
08:54:01 <mur> that's why i'm absolutist
08:54:34 <mur> i dont want any of my braincells disappear (that is not the most imporant reason, though)
08:57:08 <I440r> erm im downloading at 10k per second. how is that possible on a 56k modem ?
08:57:28 <PoppaVic> it's lying - or playing catchup
08:58:02 <I440r> or its compressing it 50%
08:58:14 <I440r> and im realy downloading 50k per
08:58:18 <I440r> erm 5k
08:58:23 <mur> hehe
08:58:39 <I440r> i WISH i was doing 50k per :)
08:58:41 <PoppaVic> see "lying"
08:59:49 <mur> Well it's product of consumer society. it shows that it loads a lot faster to keep the user happy and optimistic of the product possibilities..
09:03:57 <serg> fu.. consumer society...
09:04:19 <serg> i saw cheap digi-cams w/ memory of 128Mbit
09:04:37 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
09:05:05 <serg> Mbit, not Mbyte, but it was wr0tten 4 st00pid consumer who will overlook it and buy as 128m_byte_
09:05:26 <PoppaVic> bad keyboard?
09:05:34 <serg> ??
09:06:05 <serg> n0 :) just kidding
09:06:21 <I440r> lol my silly "limit 83" joke is still going heh
09:06:37 <serg> what joke ?
09:06:50 <I440r> the channel limit is set to 83
09:06:57 <I440r> thats my "limit to 83 standard" joke
09:06:58 <serg> limit ?
09:07:02 <I440r> as in "anti ans"
09:07:38 <serg> I440r: can't get what's the joke
09:07:55 <I440r> the channel limit limits the # people in here to 83
09:08:00 <I440r> but thats not what i meant by it
09:08:10 <I440r> it was a JOKE limit the channel to the 83 standard
09:08:18 <I440r> it was an anti ans forth joke :)
09:08:20 * serg never saw >20
09:08:49 <serg> i wish it would exeed u'r limit :)
09:09:11 * PoppaVic sighs
09:09:17 <I440r> i cant remember if we had to quietly remove my joke limit when chuck was here
09:12:53 <serg> did u ever hack forgotten passwd ?
09:13:03 <I440r> me ?
09:13:15 <serg> anyone on chan, u too
09:14:15 <I440r> ive never hacked anything
09:14:18 <I440r> other than code :)
09:14:36 <PoppaVic> "you" - it's only 2 more letters, man.
09:15:13 <serg> but i now trying to crack passwd on book-keeping databas, foRRRGHotten by previous sysadmin
09:16:26 <I440r> ouch
09:16:43 <serg> it uses enCRAPted passwd, i hope they didn't use salt or change algorithm
09:17:07 <serg> so i hope just to take known crypted one and subst
09:17:57 <serg> by hex editor i used to crack lives in gamezz and write my very first asm proggie
09:18:44 <I440r> i used to crack the copy protection off games i purchased so i could make LEGAL copies
09:19:18 <serg> did you apply ready crack or hacked yourself ?
09:19:36 <I440r> hacked myself if i couldnt find a crack
09:20:03 <I440r> the electronic arts copy protection was the hardest :)
09:20:08 <I440r> that was on my c64
09:20:34 <I440r> i never managed to crack any of the old PC games but i could usually find a crack for those
09:21:10 <I440r> i cant remember what the copy protection method was called but they burned the disk with a laser on the original and the loader tried to write to the burned area. if it succeeded it was a copy
09:21:54 <serg> DAMN !!!! it failed, they use salt or kinda like this
09:22:06 <I440r> salt ?
09:22:59 <serg> yeah, extra info what makes crypto passwd crack harder
09:23:28 <serg> look in crypto bibles 4 exact definition
09:23:29 <I440r> oh
09:47:48 <serg> hey I440r , _I CRACKED THE DAMN PASSWORD !_
09:48:40 <Robert> What password?
09:48:47 <serg> code grinders who wrote such crap are _suckers_ !!!
09:49:00 <serg> look higher in chan :)
09:49:21 <serg> RS-balance, www.softlab.ru
09:49:31 <serg> st00pid accounting databese
09:49:56 <serg> previus admins were so lame to forget all the passwords :((
09:51:49 <Robert> Heh 
09:51:52 <Robert> Congratulations.
09:53:16 <serg> King-Kong-RAT-ulations :)))
09:53:23 <mur> :)
09:53:44 <mur> can you tell us the old password once you have changed it? :)
09:53:59 * serg likes wordplay, even wrote some progs 4 it
09:54:33 <serg> i just _wiped_ it, so it's lost 4ever and now empty
09:54:50 <serg> the system is so mega lame to allow blank passw
09:56:07 <mur> :)
09:56:26 <serg> anyway, it's not on Inet
09:56:40 <mur> ba-baa-baaah-bad
09:57:22 <serg> what  bad ? empty passwd or the fact what it's not online ?
10:01:19 <serg> damn. too late, gotta run home
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11:02:22 <a7r> kc5tja: hey
11:03:34 <PoppaVic> hi kc5tja ;-) Looks like Fractal wants to play, too ;-)
11:09:17 <kc5tja> I'm trying to find the source of the quote, "If you tell a lie long enough, loud enough, and often enough, the people will believe it."  It's by Adolf Hitler, and I'm going to use it in my persuasive essay (because someone in our own government made a quote amazingly selfish and assinine, and is patently side-skirting the issues I'm dealing with in my paper).
11:09:59 <PoppaVic> heh - not much code getting written that way! ;-)
11:10:33 <kc5tja> Right now, I don't have many plans to write a lick of a line of code.  I have way too many other more important things going on.
11:10:52 <kc5tja> After I'm done with my homework, I then need to write my business plan for my company.
11:11:05 <PoppaVic> yep 8^/ The Death-Toll of collab ;-)
11:11:36 <kc5tja> Death-toll of finals more like it.
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14:27:01 <Speuler> hi
14:47:01 <ianni>  hello
15:04:37 * mur gépel #forthvan
15:04:51 <mur> (mur typewrites with #forth)
15:04:52 <mur> :)
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15:12:25 <ianni> 4:P
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15:44:20 <mur> and that was hungarian this time :)
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18:53:23 <a7r> hey
19:09:43 <ianni> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16171-2003May5.html
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22:36:53 <serg_ghost> hi folks
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