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00:16:31 <Speuler> 'morning
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07:22:38 <mur> terve PoppaVic
07:23:03 <PoppaVic> turf, chief
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08:53:47 <Robert> How do quit from a word, from withing an isForth for/nxt loop?
08:54:00 <PoppaVic> heh
08:54:06 <Robert> Just running "exit" causes some serious damage ;)
08:54:13 <PoppaVic> perhaps 'exit' ?
08:54:15 <Robert> And there is no "unloop"..
08:54:18 <PoppaVic> ouch - bad design
08:54:34 <PoppaVic> rdrop or 2rdrop?
08:54:37 <Robert> Well, most counted loops use return stack, no?
08:54:48 <PoppaVic> yep
08:54:52 <Robert> Closes I found was r>drop..
08:55:10 <PoppaVic> heh.. I'll stick to gforth ;-)
08:55:26 <Robert> Bleh.
08:55:35 <Robert> IsForth is nice... except maybe a few things.
08:55:39 <PoppaVic> yeah... Suffer, ba-bee ;-)
08:56:05 <fridge> gforth smells funny
08:56:08 <PoppaVic> use a label and goto ;-)
08:56:29 <PoppaVic> gforth works, which is all I cared about - other than portability.
08:56:35 <fridge> I installed every forth debian had available
08:57:02 <PoppaVic> I believe I used the latest tarball... Yeah, ./configure, make & install
08:57:04 <fridge> now I flip flop between pfe and gforth
08:57:18 <PoppaVic> yeah - they seem to be somewhat compatible.
08:57:24 <mur> flip and flop back and forth
08:57:40 <Robert> :)
08:57:46 <Robert> I use gforth when I need floating-point.
08:57:50 <Robert> Which isn'
08:57:53 <Robert> Which isn't very often.
08:57:58 <PoppaVic> I'm sticking with gforth - at least for now.. It's what I'll use for "Autofoo".
08:59:34 <PoppaVic> ..the goal is: 1) initially, sidestep the GNU autoshit; 2) perhaps generate autoshit on the developer-side.
09:00:23 <onetom> tile rulz ;p
09:02:46 <Robert> Stupid Robert..
09:02:54 <Robert> : x 10 for  r>drop exit  nxt ;
09:02:58 <Robert> That works just fine...
09:03:01 <PoppaVic> hehe
09:03:19 <PoppaVic> Now try it in pfe or gforth.
09:03:33 <Robert> Bleh, shut up ;)
09:03:39 <PoppaVic> hahaha
09:04:28 <Robert> gforth feels like gcc... BIG, with lots of features. That's not really what I need now, though.
09:04:45 <PoppaVic> No.. you need a native-code compiler ;-)
09:05:36 <PoppaVic> I'm really, really suprised to see that it's commercially common now, but no one at all seems to have that in an opensource effort.
09:06:44 * PoppaVic is cogitating how to rearrange his sources & defs..
09:07:31 <PoppaVic> hmm.. I may need to print it all and go from the clipboard & easychair.
09:07:40 <Robert> I am writing a "native-code" compiler for the VM I run on my AVR testing board.
09:08:24 <Robert> Then I'll code Forth on a 1x5cm "computer". :)
09:08:45 <PoppaVic> nope.. I mean we deal with our typical forth, but can native-code compile a target.. Like gcc
09:09:18 <PoppaVic> ..and frankly, GENERATING ansi-C seems even more "portable".
09:09:41 <Robert> Generating C... hooray.
09:15:28 <PoppaVic> well, generating asm wouldwork too - I don't know offhand what gcc generates.. nas or something?
09:16:11 <PoppaVic> however, ansi-c is more portable than asm, no..?
09:19:39 <Robert> Sure, sure..
09:21:17 <PoppaVic> Of course, my point was in generating turnkey-code sans all the interp stuff.
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10:35:33 <ASau> Good evening!
10:35:42 <ASau> Privet!
10:35:57 <PoppaVic> lo
10:36:35 <ASau> What do you think about text processing?
10:36:56 <ASau> Any idea about regex replacement or implementation?
10:37:37 <XeF4> a few, but today is a boozing day in Finland, so I would have trouble explaining them just now :-)
10:37:43 <PoppaVic> I think forth is worse than C with text
10:37:58 <PoppaVic> ..but it could be improved
10:38:13 <ASau> Tomorrow there is a holiday in Russia ;)
10:38:30 <PoppaVic> too many parties, not enough work
10:38:40 <XeF4> tomorrow also, but we start this evening
10:39:13 <ASau> What do you think about replacement of regex?
10:39:18 <ASau> Any proposals?
10:39:26 <PoppaVic> pcre
10:39:35 <PoppaVic> ..now write the whole api.
10:39:37 <Robert> Hi ASau 
10:39:46 <ASau> Privet, Robert!
10:39:53 <Robert> Privet :)
10:40:04 <ASau> Well.
10:40:23 <ASau> Regexes are equivalent to finite state automata
10:40:39 <PoppaVic> so what?
10:40:53 <ASau> Would it be better to be close to FSA more than to regex.
10:41:03 <ASau> ?
10:41:06 <PoppaVic> any moron that wants to rewrite it all from scratch needs a brain-transplant.
10:41:48 <ASau> That is my question, you've got the point, it seems.
10:42:05 <PoppaVic> ..if I can't interface with C, then life ain't worth living.
10:42:18 <ASau> I mean: would it be better to be close to FSA, rather than to RE?
10:43:23 <ASau> Maybe there is nothing necessary in RE, if we get easy words to write FSA.
10:43:23 <PoppaVic> what part of what I said was lost?
10:43:33 <PoppaVic> there are none
10:44:11 <ASau> I've seen one implementation of RE in Forth. I've not liked it.
10:44:41 <XeF4> I've seen a few, (the ones on taygeta plus one other) and they were all quite, ahm.. awkward
10:44:42 <ASau> See at RuFIG: www.forth.org.ru, Ruvim Pinka (IIRC) did it.
10:44:46 <PoppaVic> I don't blame you... for a FSA - see glib
10:44:59 <PoppaVic> not interested, personally.
10:45:24 <XeF4> AS: but for all my text processing, simple jump tables arranged in a tree work well enough
10:45:30 <PoppaVic> I typically feel you run or parse or run+parse words - period
10:46:22 <ASau> The problem is that there are cases when one couldn't parse words in straight manner.
10:46:29 <PoppaVic> not true
10:46:46 <ASau> CSV is example.
10:47:11 <PoppaVic> CVS is a freak having nothing to do with text/forth/string-parsing.
10:47:29 <XeF4> CSV can be parsed in a pretty straight manner
10:47:31 <ASau> Comma separated values.
10:47:32 <PoppaVic> I suspect your initial problem is one of "what do I want?"
10:47:50 <XeF4> since every comma terminates a token unless preceded by some escape char
10:47:57 <PoppaVic> CSV isn't an issue to C - just to forth... Once again, "ain't that fun?"
10:48:08 <ASau> XeF4: You mean CHAR , WORD ?
10:48:44 <PoppaVic> long ago - we could redefine the sep-char... I doubt that exists, anymore.
10:49:24 <XeF4> AS: I mean VAL1, VAL2, VAL3, VAL4
10:49:25 <PoppaVic> further, one sep-char is not really enough... Should be 2 or more.. but that's the interp portion.. (hint-hint)
10:49:50 <XeF4> AS: char,word,whatever is dictated by what is expected of each field
10:49:52 <PoppaVic> in C, I like strstr - used backwards..
10:50:41 <PoppaVic> XeF4: except "," and ", " and " ," and " " == "\t" are all similar and valid.
10:50:57 <ASau> As example, I have (rather frequently) to reduce size of various tables by eliminating randomly distributed record by (RE) sample (with sed I do it).
10:51:24 <PoppaVic> for line-input, we have one set of rules - for files, another.. It muddies the water fiercely.
10:51:36 <XeF4> Poppa: whitespace is ignored
10:51:37 <ASau> Sometimes it is too head-breakish. :)
10:51:43 <PoppaVic> gee "sed" is written in C ;-)
10:51:53 <ASau> I know ;)
10:52:03 <PoppaVic> ..so, back to what I said.
10:52:09 <XeF4> sed is written in C for historical reasons
10:52:24 <PoppaVic> yeah, yeah - does the forth imp exist? in use?
10:52:35 <ASau> I can do "gzip -d sed402.tgz" even under DOS. :)
10:52:41 * XeF4 seems to recall seeing a forth implementation somewhere
10:52:46 <PoppaVic> hehehe
10:52:54 <PoppaVic> Keep reaching, man ;-)
10:53:09 <ASau> XeF4: You mean RE?
10:53:18 <PoppaVic> Forth has a bigger prob with "strings" than C - I say it again.
10:53:32 <XeF4> AS: I mean RE with a sed-like set of command line arguments
10:54:11 <PoppaVic> with my primgen-shit, I would HOPE someone can break that "barrier", but I doubt it.
10:54:12 <ASau> Hm..
10:55:26 <ASau> Maybe we should try to invent good set of words to deal in strings?
10:55:37 <PoppaVic> yep - that too
10:56:04 <XeF4> primgen-shit?
10:56:16 <PoppaVic> I've written 'primgen' to translate the dpans shit to code-primitives and optional headers.. So far, that's it.. The ANS forth shit is still suck-ass
10:56:33 <ASau> The problem is that we should (re)invent samples or smth that kind.
10:56:39 <PoppaVic> yes.. I know
10:56:47 <ASau> I mean Snobol-like samples.
10:56:59 <PoppaVic> ..and gforth helps, but it STILL isn't right - anymore than the ans forth shit is "right"
10:58:07 <ASau> Wah! Take all that "COMPARE-LONG-ADDRESS-COUNTER-STRINGS" shit off me! :)))
10:58:22 <PoppaVic> hmm?
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10:58:46 <ASau> I don't like naming like "FILE-OPEN"
10:59:03 <PoppaVic> ok, why?
10:59:21 <ASau> It should be understandible from CONTEXT what should "OPEN" do.
10:59:31 <PoppaVic> ..I'm all for a modern, portable "forth", btw
10:59:51 <PoppaVic> no..... yer mixing namespace, voc and purpose
11:00:01 <ASau> I use vocabulary switching for this.
11:00:06 <kc5tja> ASau: What if you're both opening a window and a file?
11:00:17 <PoppaVic> no - awindow OR a file
11:00:29 <PoppaVic> vocs... namespaces.. wordlists..
11:00:30 <kc5tja> No, both.
11:00:38 <ASau> VOCABULARY WINDOW ... VOCABULARY FILE FILE DEFINITIONS : OPEN ... ;
11:00:39 <PoppaVic> no.
11:01:01 <PoppaVic> there is no "both" there is CONTEXT - and a way to make it readable
11:01:02 <XeF4> (not trolling, really.) otoh, filesystems are best done without, so their interface words should be irritatingly long to marginalize their use.
11:01:13 <PoppaVic> no
11:01:26 <PoppaVic> words should be "words" - not hyphenated
11:01:33 <kc5tja> PoppaVic: I'm talking about x=open("file.dat"); y=OpenWindow(xyz);.
11:01:45 <kc5tja> A single program can open both a file AND a window in the same program.
11:02:13 <ASau> " file.dat" FILE OPEN X ! XYZ WINDOW OPEN Y !
11:02:24 <PoppaVic> kc5tja that ain't rpn in the least
11:02:33 <ASau> Ah, I've forgotten:
11:02:34 <PoppaVic> yes
11:02:39 <kc5tja> PoppaVic: What does that have to do with the core essence of the conversation?
11:02:42 <ASau> VOCABULARY WINDOW IMMEDIATE
11:02:56 <PoppaVic> OR, the var sets the voc for the next word
11:03:30 <PoppaVic> kc5tja; sorry, since everything in forth is predicated on stack and words, your shit blows it.
11:03:54 <kc5tja> My shit blows it, eh?
11:04:03 <kc5tja> All in your face.
11:04:07 <PoppaVic> PERHAPS it makes sense to predicate that every voc have "op-overloading"?
11:04:20 <PoppaVic> sorry, kc5tja - not in your life
11:04:28 <kc5tja> Heh -- it's doing it right now.
11:04:29 <ASau> I use word "UNIT":
11:04:39 <ASau> : UNIT VOCABULARY IMMEDIATE ;
11:04:58 <PoppaVic> bah
11:05:02 <XeF4> PoppaVic: "op overloading", as in each voc can have words named the same as in other vocs?
11:05:16 <ASau> Or even  : UNIT VOCABULARY IMMEDIATE LATEST PFA CFA EXECUTE DEFINITIONS ; :)
11:05:17 <XeF4> what on earth do you think vocabularies are?
11:05:20 <PoppaVic> XeF4: I was thinking of the " " and "=" and such
11:05:28 <PoppaVic> ..seps
11:06:07 <ASau> So after "UNIT FILE" I immediately start definitions of words to deal files.
11:06:57 <PoppaVic> Yeah, I do similar - and it still "feels awkward", ASau
11:07:34 <ASau> E.g.: (if you're nervous, get off screen!)
11:07:49 <PoppaVic> ..with my autofoo-shit, I will often switch between rpn and postfix.. but even that only aleviates the problems.
11:08:04 <ASau> SYSTEM TERMINAL PARAMETERS MONOCHROME 25 RAWS 80 COLUMNS SET
11:08:11 <PoppaVic> hmm?
11:09:07 <ASau> Just to define explicitly that next "SET" should "set parameters of system terminal".
11:09:13 <PoppaVic> yeah.
11:09:47 <ASau> I call this "Agressive Vocabulary Switching". 
11:09:49 <PoppaVic> Somewhere around here, I have a few notes on Thinking Forth.... They really help. But, you STILL need - on occasion - "parsing words"
11:11:01 <ASau> Of course you cannot eliminate anything completely, though I've found AVS technique very useful.
11:11:08 <PoppaVic> that is... "2 3 +" is fine, but SOMETIMES shit like "variable foo" makes more sense than 'S" foo" (variable)'
11:11:48 <PoppaVic> with my autofoo stuff, this is of even more obvious importance..
11:12:59 <ASau> XeF: I wonder why you're only 4 but not 6?
11:13:51 <ASau> Xenon hexafluolide is much more cool thing. ;)
11:14:45 <ASau> I mean "substance", of course.
11:14:46 <XeF4> XeF6 is not so stable :-)
11:15:22 <XeF4> XeF2 and XePtF6 are *too* pedestrian, so I had to compromise
11:15:36 <Robert> Heh.
11:15:57 <ASau> ;) He is more stable.
11:16:48 <PoppaVic> Death is stable
11:17:25 <XeF4> PoppaVic seems to confuse cause and effect
11:17:43 <Robert> Hey, I just broke a natural law!
11:17:56 <Robert> My code worked the first time I tried it. :)
11:17:57 <XeF4> you have died, but you're still typing?
11:17:59 <XeF4> oh.
11:18:01 <Robert> Not really
11:18:02 <PoppaVic> death is merely a state <shrug>
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11:21:06 <PoppaVic> ASau: I like yer questions, though.. It could be fun resolving them.
11:23:34 <Robert> I440r: I use "r>drop exit" to break out of a for/nxt look, right?
11:25:54 <ASau> Provet I440r!
11:27:29 <I440r> yea
11:27:38 <I440r> r>drop exit will do it
11:27:48 <I440r> hi asau :)
11:28:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r
11:32:18 <XeF4> i440r: r>drop is isforth's rdrop?
11:32:41 <PoppaVic> pretty silly to rewrite standards
11:32:41 <ASau> Yes, it is obvious from its name
11:32:43 <I440r> ive never seen rdrop. 
11:32:51 <I440r> every forth i ever used had r>drop heh
11:32:55 <PoppaVic> gforth, and pfe too iirc
11:33:05 <ASau> I never use RDROP, I use R> DROP 
11:33:10 <PoppaVic> yeah - and FIG has been ignored for decades.
11:33:34 <ASau> You think so.
11:33:41 <ASau> You're mistaken
11:33:43 <Robert> I use rdrop... bleh.
11:34:19 <PoppaVic> Robert: me too - it's once simple & logical setp
11:34:21 <PoppaVic> step
11:34:46 <ASau> I see no need to make this atomic operation.
11:34:47 <ASau> My return stack is real.
11:35:02 <ASau> That is:  >R ;S  is real branching.
11:35:19 <PoppaVic> I prefer atomicity for something that silly.
11:35:32 <XeF4> my return stack is real, but atomicity is faster in a nonoptimizing forth
11:35:43 <kc5tja> Also less typing involved.
11:35:49 <PoppaVic> true
11:36:22 <PoppaVic> if I want '>r' - I use it.. if I want to discard what I sent to 'r', 'rdrop' is simple & clean.
11:36:42 <ASau> I use "R> DROP" so often, that I see no need to name it.
11:36:43 <Robert> I440r: Why is the new IsForth's input so much slower?
11:36:56 <I440r> what do you mean ?
11:37:04 <I440r> how is it slower ?
11:37:13 <Robert> I440r: When I press "enter", I notice a small delay.
11:37:19 <Robert> I440r: Never done that with other versions
11:37:20 <PoppaVic> ASau: I do - at the least, it's two nesting-calls over one.
11:37:22 <kc5tja> ASau: That's precisely why I have a name for it.  It's used so often that having it as a separate entity is easier to type, faster to execute, and gives less room for errors.
11:37:22 <I440r> erm. there shouldnt be
11:37:43 <I440r> ive not done anything with query/expect/refill etc
11:37:52 <Robert> Hmm, strange
11:38:06 <I440r> try removing vocabularies from the search order
11:38:25 <I440r> to remove the foo vocabulary you would say
11:38:27 <I440r> foo previous
11:38:39 <I440r> just dont say "only previous"
11:38:39 <I440r> heh
11:38:53 <PoppaVic> really? sounds freaky ;-)
11:39:01 <XeF4> so foo automagically removes old instances of foo from the search order?
11:39:03 <ASau> kc5tja: If I use >R I rather consume value after R>
11:39:08 <I440r> no
11:39:10 <PoppaVic> "pervious" should do the job.
11:39:17 <PoppaVic> prev..
11:39:20 <I440r> if "foo" is a vocabulary
11:39:23 <Robert> Nah, it's not that much of a problem.
11:39:28 <I440r> to add it to context you name it.
11:39:36 <I440r> if its already there it gets rotated out to the top of context
11:39:42 <Robert> Anyway... any vim expert in here? :)
11:39:47 <I440r> the word previous removed the top item from teh context stack
11:39:51 <ASau> I know vi
11:40:00 <I440r> so forth previous removes forth from context
11:40:00 * kc5tja uses vim; not sure I'm an "expert", but...
11:40:25 <XeF4> I440r: I know what previous does, I'm just not used to existing copies being rotated out of the search order
11:40:28 <Robert> i_<x> single <x>    should become:    i_<x> single mtv-<x> ' mtv-<x> word" <x>"
11:40:32 <Robert> How do I do that?
11:40:34 <ASau> I don't think there is "expert" in such complex editor
11:40:55 <I440r> xef4 my vocabulary wordset is in my opinion alot saner than the usual
11:40:57 <Robert> Where  <x> can be any word.
11:41:05 <ASau> 3ebimtv-
11:41:06 <I440r> for instance, i dont need a "prior-check" in my find
11:41:14 <I440r> only forth also forth also forth also forth
11:41:21 <I440r> there is NO also in isforth
11:41:22 <Robert> I want to do that replacement for a number of lines.
11:41:24 <ASau> <ESC>
11:41:26 <ASau> :)
11:41:35 <I440r> so if i say only forth compiler debug i get a search order of
11:41:41 <I440r>   forth compiler debug <-- top
11:41:45 <I440r> if i then say forth i get
11:41:51 <I440r>  compiler debug forth <-- top
11:42:35 <I440r> the only reason for the word "also" is because some MORON decided that a vocabulary should destroy the top item of teh context stack when it adds itself
11:42:37 <PoppaVic> yeah, I wrote a 'vocs' wrapper, too
11:42:41 <I440r> it doesnt in isforth
11:42:43 <ASau> :s/[a-zA-Z]+ +single +[a-zA-Z]+/\1\2\3\4mtv-\5/
11:42:58 <ASau> Each sub-RE should be in \( \)
11:43:08 <Robert> What do you mean?
11:43:12 <ASau> Use s///g
11:43:15 <PoppaVic> that MORON wrote the whole idea, and it won't properly without using his ideas - if you obviate, then you need new words ;-)
11:43:32 <I440r> ?
11:43:37 <I440r> say again in english ?
11:43:58 <Robert> ASau: Actually, those words could contain other characters, like " , .  etc.
11:44:18 <PoppaVic> I want to blame Baden, but it wasn't - he chose words that fit and orders that read well. Obviating that, you need a differnt set of 'words'.
11:44:31 <ASau> Robert: Use [^ \t\n]+ instead.
11:44:35 <kc5tja> Robert: Then use ..[a-zA-Z\.\"\,].. instead of the regular character classes.
11:44:44 <kc5tja> Or, yeah, that'll work too.
11:45:11 <I440r> looks like bash script :) hehe 
11:45:27 * ASau knows that it is simpler to use word delimiters, than letters etc. :)
11:45:36 <Robert> Hm, OK.. but  :s/[a-zA-Z\.\"\,]+ +single +[a-zA-Z\.\"\,]+/\1\2\3\4mtv-\5/   would do it?
11:45:40 <ASau> I440r: man sed :)
11:45:47 <I440r> lol
11:46:17 <ASau> Robert: use    :start_str,end_str s///g
11:46:28 <I440r> reminds me of the user friendly joke of the cavemen saying ug, duh, grunt and the 3 geeks saying awk, sed, grep
11:46:29 <I440r> lol
11:46:47 <Robert> ASau: What's s///g  ?
11:46:48 <ASau> No need for awk
11:46:58 * kc5tja needs to write an OS where ug, duh, and grunt are the most often used text processing words...
11:46:58 <PoppaVic> no need for perl, either ;->
11:47:03 <ASau> Robert: man sed, man regexp
11:47:05 <I440r> :)
11:47:09 <Robert> ASau: Awww...
11:47:12 <Robert> OK :)
11:47:18 <I440r> no need for any of it if you have assembler and forth
11:47:23 <Robert> Heh.
11:47:25 <ianni> 4haha
11:47:42 <ASau> Well, you don't know about TECO :)
11:47:46 <I440r> c. a huge step backwards
11:48:12 <ASau> I use DEC TECO rather often, when I have to edit through Telnet session.
11:48:23 <PoppaVic> yeah - keep saying that to yerself, I440r ;-)
11:49:11 <ASau> PoppaVic: There is no need for perl at all.
11:49:25 <kc5tja> In a way it's true though.  There have been other languages introduced since C that can produce just as good a code output, but which gives significantly fewer opportunities for programmer errors than C.
11:49:30 <ASau> Caeterum censeo perl ...
11:49:49 <PoppaVic> ASau: sure there is - for what it was originally: report languange/generation - other than that - it's crap.
11:50:01 <ASau> PV: man awk
11:50:10 <PoppaVic> used it.. Knew of it.
11:50:17 <PoppaVic> kc5tja: which?
11:50:20 <ASau> man find
11:50:26 <kc5tja> PoppaVic: Oberon comes right to mind.
11:50:58 <ASau> kc: Ada, Modula, Oberon -- late "algoloids".
11:51:11 <ASau> Algol-68 is also very impressive.
11:51:12 <kc5tja> ASau: C is also an Algol derivative.
11:51:19 <kc5tja> But more distant.
11:51:26 <PoppaVic> hehehaha
11:51:27 <ASau> Too distant.
11:51:38 <PoppaVic> OK, that said it all.
11:52:08 <ASau> C is more PL-ish, i.e. FORTRANish.
11:52:29 <kc5tja> I disagree.
11:52:46 <PoppaVic> ..could be <shrug> Is there a modula/ada/oberon Kernel I don't know of?
11:52:52 <kc5tja> I find the similarities between C and other Algol-like languages too similar to be canny.
11:53:20 <ASau> Refusal of type checking was a bad step for production quality PL.
11:53:31 <kc5tja> PoppaVic: http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/
11:53:42 <PoppaVic> Been there - so?
11:53:56 <kc5tja> You asked for a kernel, I provided one.
11:54:09 <PoppaVic> whoa..
11:54:24 <PoppaVic> Cool, it's like totally *nix/*bsd? tits!
11:54:36 <kc5tja> So all OSes ahve to be like Uix?
11:54:36 * PoppaVic reinstalls
11:54:37 <kc5tja> unix?
11:54:47 <kc5tja> Last I checked, Windows was *nothing* like Unix.
11:54:56 <PoppaVic> oh.. wait... Yeah...
11:55:08 <PoppaVic> Right, but dozers love it - so?
11:55:19 <kc5tja> So?
11:55:20 <kc5tja> You tell me.
11:55:24 <ASau> EMacs is not UNIX at all.
11:55:27 <ASau> ;)
11:56:01 <PoppaVic> yeah, Emacs is also written in oberon ;-)
11:56:09 <PoppaVic> ..and it's an OS itself ;-)
11:56:15 <kc5tja> Emacs is written in Lisp.
11:56:28 <ASau> In ELisp
11:56:29 <PoppaVic> But, that's non-seq... As long as y'all have fun, eh? ;-)
11:56:42 <I440r> brb, walking the doggies
11:56:55 <ASau> I am to go.
11:56:56 --- quit: I440r ()
11:57:11 <ASau> Happy holiday!
11:58:01 <ASau> Vihri vrazhdebnye vejut nad nami... :)
11:58:08 --- quit: ASau ("Toffee IRC client for DOS v1.0/b535")
12:02:54 <kc5tja> http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/ -- for those who have kids and would like a fun project.
12:03:33 <kc5tja> I built one of these engines, and it's *sweet*.  It's not going to power your car (at least, not without severely changing the design), but for a small toy boat or very simple water turbine application, these things rock.
12:04:31 <kc5tja> I haven't gotten mine to stay running for more than 5 minutes though.  :(  Not exactly sure why; I think it's overheating.  But once cooled down, you can empty it and refill it, and it'll run.
12:04:51 <kc5tja> Apparently, professionally made units back in the 20s were able to run indefinitely.
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12:29:56 <ramnull> Hola I440r.
12:30:23 <I440r> :)
12:30:46 <kc5tja> Hmm... I'll be right back.  I need to get some hardware at the local home depot.
12:30:55 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-store
12:31:13 <ramnull> I440r: You know, all this Forthing has made one thing real clear to me. Specifically, how bad I really suck at coding.
12:31:37 <I440r> lol - youll get it in the end
12:32:00 <I440r> its always like that to begin with :)
12:32:00 <I440r> dont give up :)
12:32:08 <ramnull> I440r: Heh. Cant get a proggy to run for more than a few minutes before it takes a dump. Heh.
12:32:33 <ramnull> Only to discover that the data has been mangled.
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12:33:16 <ramnull> I440r: IRC is kicking your ass, I'm telling yah.
12:33:38 <I440r> :/
12:33:59 <ramnull> Anyways, I've got all kinda of theory, but not enough low level experience.
12:35:26 <ramnull> For some practice, I'm taking parts of the Forth scientific library and modding them to run on IsForth.
12:35:51 <I440r> cool :)
12:36:51 <ramnull> To get the experience, I'm taking some languages (Forth being the primary one) that are made run on bare wires and hacking my brains out.
12:38:37 <I440r> thats how to do it :)
12:38:47 <ramnull> I440r: The one thing I'm loving about it though are the tiny executables I'm getting.
12:39:09 <ramnull> I440r: Using Forth, Assembler, and Oberon.
12:39:23 <I440r> :)
12:39:39 <ramnull> I440r: So what have you been up to?
12:40:38 <I440r> not much, im trying to figure out how to reliavly recieve alt/cntrl etc keypresses in all terminals
12:40:56 <ramnull> I440r: Using kbd?
12:41:01 <I440r> i think the only and i mean the ONLY way to do it is to switch into raw keyboard mode
12:41:10 <I440r> a big nono
12:41:20 <I440r> ?
12:41:28 <I440r> yesyes
12:41:29 <XeF4> which is irritating
12:41:43 <XeF4> veryveryvery irritating for everyone not using us qwerty
12:42:09 <ramnull> I440r: Then you gotta think about all the various deviations. Devorak, Chorded Systems, etc...
12:42:14 <I440r> there might be another way to do it, that is to totally rewrite ALL the terminfo files for ALL terminals i want to support to include ALL escape/key sequences 
12:42:29 <I440r> ramnull no i dont :)
12:42:44 * XeF4 doesn't use us qwerty, fwiw
12:43:07 <ramnull> Personally I think it's retarded the way Display and Input at hardcoded at the Term level.
12:43:37 <I440r> me 2
12:44:35 <ramnull> Wonder if anyone has written seperate device drivers for each.
12:45:44 <ramnull> Perhaps a Peripheral Input driver then a Termio driver.
12:46:47 <XeF4> i44or: why do you need alt/ctrl keypresses?
12:47:10 <I440r> for editor/debugger
12:47:23 <I440r> function keys are easy, terminfo has key sequences for them
12:47:25 <ramnull> XeF4: I can think of about a dozen reasons for it.
12:47:37 <XeF4> butbutbut alt-alphanumeric come chunked in from stdio
12:47:39 <I440r> but an editor is going to want cntrl + key for certain operations
12:47:47 <XeF4> and one can live without instant menu highlighting
12:47:58 <I440r> chunked ?
12:48:07 <I440r> yes as escape sequences
12:48:12 <I440r> and every terminal does it different
12:48:16 <XeF4> as escape sequences, yes
12:48:25 <XeF4> esc+char is the standard afaik
12:48:38 <XeF4> just don't use alt-[ and all is well
12:48:47 <I440r> thats not a problem, i already have to code to handle key sequence input
12:49:00 <ramnull> I440r: Perhaps an exec: table for the incoming HEX codes?
12:49:07 <I440r> i WANT alt/cntrl etc
12:49:22 <I440r> i fucking REFUSE to deal with fucked up crap like vi uses to get arround teh problem
12:49:30 <I440r> escape colong crap
12:49:34 <I440r> FUCK THAT
12:49:38 <XeF4> so do I actually, but when coding for *nix, I live without them because *nix is crap
12:50:03 <I440r> any editor that use more that TWO keypresses to do ANY operation is a pile of shit
12:50:08 <I440r> period
12:50:11 <I440r> alt + key
12:50:14 <XeF4> but since alt-foo come as escape sequences in just about every sane terminal, there is no *big* problem
12:50:16 <I440r> cntrl + key
12:50:27 <ramnull> XeF4: Ever seen Bluebottle OS? http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/
12:50:28 <I440r> anything more is bad design
12:50:40 <I440r> XeF4 there is. 
12:50:41 <XeF4> ctrl-alpha and alt-alphanum are standardized enough
12:50:47 <XeF4> and what is that?
12:50:55 <I440r> run xterm and examine what keys are returned for alt q
12:51:04 <I440r> do the same in eterm, rxvt, xvt etc
12:51:10 <I440r> all different
12:51:26 <I440r> and terminfo doesnt give ANY alt key sequences and only SOME of the shifted key sequences
12:51:36 <ramnull> I440r: Hrmmm...perhaps a kernel patch is in order?
12:51:44 <I440r> terminfo is braindead. 
12:51:51 <XeF4> then say that any term that doesn't follow vt102 escape sequences is a pile of crap and there is no problem.
12:51:59 <I440r> people who create terminfo files are braindead
12:52:25 <XeF4> and those who use a crap terminal can use esc-foo instead of alt-foo
12:52:26 <I440r> any terminfo file that does not contain ALL escape sequences and all key sequences that are described in man 5 terminfo is fucked up
12:52:40 <I440r> if the fucking terminal supports it it should fucking describe it in its terminfo
12:52:40 <XeF4> unless their terminal is really profoundly bad, in which case the problem is on their side
12:52:59 <I440r> no. alt is a meta key
12:53:07 <I440r> press and hold alt. press second key
12:53:13 <I440r> not press and release alt, press second key
12:53:31 <I440r> also you have control
12:53:36 <XeF4> press and hold alt, press second key    and press and release esc, press second key should always return the same sequence
12:53:49 <I440r> i want to be able to distinguish between f1, shift f1, alt f1, control f1
12:53:56 <XeF4> and if they don't the user can press and release esc and press the second key
12:54:47 <I440r> no.
12:54:50 <XeF4> then you're in trouble because function keys are not treated the same by every term
12:54:51 <I440r> let me restate that. 
12:54:55 <I440r> not "no" but
12:54:59 <I440r> "FUCK no"
12:55:03 <XeF4> why not?
12:55:33 <I440r> because its teh most fucked up non intuative user interface ive ever seen
12:55:49 <XeF4> but it's common practice on *nix
12:56:19 <I440r> yes. that doesnt make it "not fucked up"
12:56:36 <I440r> it is seriously fucked up in a big way and im NOT going to deal with it 
12:56:54 <I440r> ill switch into raw keyboard mode or something
12:57:16 <I440r> that way ill KNOW not only when a key is presssed but also when it is released
12:57:56 <XeF4> but if alt works on your system as it should, then you don't have to deal with it, someone else has to deal with it.
12:58:21 <I440r> no. I have to deal with it
12:58:27 <I440r> like i said
12:58:45 <I440r> i want to know when a key is pressed, when alt + key and when control + key
12:58:59 <I440r> also, knowing with they are released is a big plus
12:59:19 <I440r> using escape + command user interface is NEVRER going to be
12:59:36 <I440r> FUCK that. and fuck whoever designed it and the horse he rode in on
12:59:53 <I440r> you can quote me on that
13:03:39 * XeF4 ponders.. "ja painukoon vittuun sen suunnittelija hevosineen".. that quote sounds better in Finnish =)
13:03:43 <XeF4> (sorry.)
13:03:52 <I440r> lol
13:03:55 <I440r> what was that ?
13:04:02 <I440r> oh :)
13:04:55 <mur> you better not know >:)
13:08:20 <XeF4> roughly "and may the designer of that sink into some cunt along with his horse"
13:09:27 <I440r> lol
13:12:29 <I440r> gotta go :/
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14:22:42 <kc5tja> Hmm...
14:23:17 <kc5tja> Solar power is quite definitely capable of providing enough heat energy to power a pop-pop engine.  But now I need to make the flash boiler correctly.
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14:26:19 <mur> kc5tja are you dyi people?
14:26:24 <mur> diy
14:26:37 <kc5tja> I don't exactly understand the question.
14:26:43 <mur> do-it-yourself
14:26:53 <kc5tja> For small to medium-sized projects, yes.
14:27:16 <kc5tja> Why do you ask?
14:27:52 <mur> i know one person who has done about all the services to work home, own water system, food plants and such :)
14:28:09 * kc5tja nods
14:28:41 <kc5tja> The pop-pop engine isn't going to provide power for my home; not until I figure a way to get it to run continuously.
14:28:45 <kc5tja> These are really fickle engines.
14:28:57 <kc5tja> Especially since it has no moving parts; I can't tell what's wrong with it when something does go wrong.
14:29:01 <tcn> what powers it?
14:29:04 <kc5tja> Heat
14:29:13 <tcn> stirling cycle?
14:29:16 <kc5tja> A pop-pop engine is basically an upside-down manometer tube.
14:29:35 <kc5tja> The tube is filled with water, and the open-end is submerged.  Thus, there is no air in the tube.
14:29:47 <kc5tja> Heat causes a bubble of steam to form at the closed-end, thus thrusting water out of the tube.
14:30:02 <kc5tja> Eventually the steam reaches a cold part fo the tube, causing it to condense.  This creates a vacuum.
14:30:14 <kc5tja> The vacuum then sucks up more water into the tube.
14:30:28 <kc5tja> However, while the steam was expanding, more heat was added to the boiler; hence, it's well above boiling temperature.
14:30:39 <kc5tja> So when the water reaches the boiler, it *flashes* into steam, thus causing the cycle to repeat.
14:30:55 <kc5tja> More like Rankine cycle, actually.
14:31:20 <kc5tja> It's more like a "water pulse jet" than most other rankine cycle engines though.
14:31:26 <tcn> oh.. heh.. 
14:31:41 <tcn> so if you wanted to do something with it, you'd need to add moving parts :)
14:31:48 <kc5tja> I can get the engine to go through several cycles.  But then it stops.  I'm not sure why it stops.
14:32:02 <kc5tja> A turbine is the most natural choice, considering the engine's output is a jet.
14:32:18 <mur> kc5tja you might want to talk to publunch on #freeciv - he's doing a lot himself
14:32:45 <kc5tja> mur: Thanks, but I suspect he'll not know anything about what I'm trying to do.  Pop-pop engines are not exactly "common" anymore.
14:32:57 <kc5tja> They used to be huge in the 1910-1930 era, though.
14:33:01 * kc5tja gets URL...
14:33:20 <kc5tja> http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/
14:33:58 <kc5tja> I'm kind of baffled at why I can't make one that runs for a good length of time.  My first pop pop engine ran for 10 minutes straight before stalling.  Since then, I've never been able to recreate that record.
14:34:27 <tcn> what dia. & length of tube are you using?
14:35:13 <kc5tja> 1/4" outside diameter.  The length of tubing is long enough to reach from the reservoir to the "flame" (be it candle or solar collector).
14:35:40 <tcn> oh i see... for a boat it maks perfect sense :)
14:35:59 <kc5tja> tcn: The concept can be generalized to larger engines, but it still requires lots and lots of little tubes.
14:36:06 <kc5tja> Hence, it might be overly expensive to scale up.
14:36:36 <kc5tja> The reason for the small tubes is much beyond 1/4", the water/steam interface develops anomalies that enables the steam to dissolve into the water -- we dont' want that.  :)
14:36:48 <kc5tja> We want a nice, clean, uniform liquid piston.
14:36:51 <tcn> right. hmm. what material?
14:36:55 <kc5tja> Copper
14:37:04 <tcn> aha
14:37:37 <kc5tja> It would probably work a lot better if I had a heat insulative material for the tubing between the "boiler" and the "cooler."  Still, the toys ran virtually forever, and mine don't, and the only difference is tube diameter.
14:37:40 <kc5tja> But I'm still playing.
14:37:57 <kc5tja> Even my 10-minute engine used 1/4" tubing, so I know it's possible to get it working with 1/4" tubing.
14:38:13 <kc5tja> But I wouldn't go much above that -- not without a *LOT* more heat input.
14:38:18 <tcn> hmm.. maybe you could immerse the cold end further to cool it
14:39:01 <kc5tja> That's certainly a thought.  I haven't tried that yet, though, because 1/4" tubing is hard to bend into tight loops while still allowing a free-flowing passage for the water to flow through.
14:39:31 <kc5tja> But when these engines start to go, they really go.  :)  I had a hard time holding my 10-minute engine still when I had that running.  :)
14:39:45 <tcn> heh.. cool :)
14:39:50 <kc5tja> I suspect I was getting, maybe, about 3W useful power out of the thing from a candle.
14:39:58 <tcn> how fast did it run?
14:40:00 <kc5tja> Not bad for a 1/4" pipe.  :D
14:40:23 <kc5tja> It varied, probably because of ambient temperature.  But between 3 to 8 cycles per second.
14:40:52 <kc5tja> Since I don't have a boat to put these engines in, I don't know how fast it would accelerate the boat.
14:43:14 <kc5tja> But it's also known that a coil-type boiler isn't as efficient as a diaphram type.  If I can find a small metal box I can somehow seal the tubing into, then I can just heat the boiler with a larger surface area, and that'll probably give better results.
14:43:19 <tcn> make a paper boat :) just watch out for the candle..
14:43:25 <kc5tja> (assuming it doesn't blow the boiler apart.  :) )
14:43:39 <kc5tja> I can do that.  However, balancing it becomes a major issue.
14:43:44 * kc5tja tried.  :D
14:43:50 <kc5tja> The candle kept falling into the tub.
14:43:57 <tcn> haha
14:44:24 <kc5tja> Besides, it works fine stationary as long as the open ends of the tubes are submerged and there's no air in the boiler.
14:45:02 <tcn> hmm.. they're making gas boilers 95-97% efficient these days..
14:45:40 <tcn> they DO use coils
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14:46:18 <tcn> actually there's a company called Fulton that makes pulse-combustion boilers :)
14:47:13 <kc5tja> The coil-type flash boilers do work very well.  However, note that the water doesn't reciprocate through them -- instead, it's continuous flow.  Water in at the bottom, steam out at the top.
14:47:30 <kc5tja> These engines are reciprocating.  Hence, something more like a coffee percolator would work better.
14:47:32 <tcn> oh, right.. less impulse
14:47:54 <kc5tja> Well, not so much less impulse, but definitely optimized more for other applications (e.g., steam turbines).
14:50:33 <tcn> hey.. what you need is a tin can (tuna fish size) full of something you can drain out through a small hole..
14:51:06 <kc5tja> I have a tuna can.  But I lack a torch to seal the top with.
14:51:23 <kc5tja> Plus it's a bit ... big for this application.  :)
14:51:30 <kc5tja> I only have 60W of solar radiation to play with.  :)
14:51:34 <tcn> then I guess you couldn't braze the tube to the hole either
14:51:41 <kc5tja> And about a 100W to 200W for the candle.
14:51:48 <kc5tja> Nope.
14:52:00 <kc5tja> I don't know anything about weilding a torch, except to always point it away from you.  :)
14:52:02 <tcn> unless you can use a canble :)
14:52:17 <tcn> and you wouldn't wanna use an arc welder..
14:52:25 <tcn> you'd vaporize it.. heh
14:52:49 <kc5tja> Yeah.  :)
14:53:29 <tcn> oh, and it's gotta be small enough to heat up quick
14:53:43 <kc5tja> That's why the tuna can is too big.
14:54:00 <kc5tja> Now if I had something like 50 tubes going to the thing ... ;)
14:54:05 <tcn> i think someone gave me a gadget like that when I ws a kid.. it had a flat hollow disc, black on top, and a parabolic reflector
14:54:05 <kc5tja> But that'll be a project for later.
14:55:47 <tcn> welp, i was gonna port Retro to Linux tonight :)
14:56:03 <mur> retro?
14:56:35 <tcn> retroforth.. the one I originally started.. 
14:57:05 <tcn> i need a subroutine threaded Forth to mess around with C/Forth linkage
15:02:06 <tcn> you've messed with that, right kc5tja/
15:03:59 <kc5tja> Yes, I have.
15:04:04 <kc5tja> Fs/Forth uses it.
15:05:06 <tcn> i just figured it's the only sane way to call Forth from C
15:05:25 <kc5tja> Yes, this is why I chose subroutine threading for my Forth.
15:05:51 * kc5tja really wants to do serious Forth development under Linux, but I need direct interfacing capability to the existing C libraries.
15:06:11 <kc5tja> Ditto for under Windows.
15:06:51 <tcn> right. so have you got routines for loading dynamic libraries?
15:09:47 <kc5tja> I don't even have the command-line interpretter done yet.
15:09:57 * kc5tja has been overloaded and burnt out with other projects.
15:11:22 <tcn> oh i see
15:11:49 <tcn> well, we'll get something working, between us all :)
15:13:37 <kc5tja> hehe
15:13:53 <kc5tja> OK, trying my next experiment...bbiab.
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15:43:04 <tcn> later.
15:43:05 --- quit: tcn ("TinyIRC 1.1")
15:45:41 <kc5tja> Well, I got it to pulse consistently, but extremely slowly.  So slowly, in fact, that you can actually see the water level rising and falling as the steam bubble expands and contracts.  :)
15:45:44 <kc5tja> That's progress.
15:46:03 <kc5tja> That tells me I (a) have not enough heat input to the system, and (b) was constricting fluid flow before.
15:46:21 <kc5tja> I think I need smaller-diameter tubing if I'm going to use a candle/solar for heat input.
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17:19:29 <Robert> Hi I440r 
17:20:12 <Robert> Is there any way to include a '"' withing a ," bleh" string?
17:20:24 <Robert> Except using '"' c,
17:20:25 <I440r> not realy :/
17:20:34 <Robert> Oh.. OK.
17:20:37 <I440r> the quote would delimit the string
17:20:46 <Robert> Yeah.
17:21:06 <I440r> you could use ...
17:21:09 <I440r> n1 c, ,' xyzzy"'
17:21:28 <I440r> ,' is an uncounted string and is delimited on a single quote so you can embed double qoutes
17:21:33 <Robert> Heh.
17:21:36 <Robert> Ugly hack :P
17:21:40 <I440r> but YOU have to add teh count
17:21:54 <Robert> Can't you just implement escape sequences? Would be useful with \n too
17:23:49 * kc5tja hasn't done so yet, but will have S( to encode strings.  It's delimited by a ), and yes it does count parentheses, so S( (this is cool!)) is a proper string.  :).
17:24:08 <kc5tja> I got the idea from Postscript and PDF actually.  :)
17:24:21 <I440r> fpc does that, i was thinking of doing it eventually,
17:24:29 <I440r> you could embed a \$22 then :)
17:24:39 <I440r> ," xyzzy\$22abcde"
17:24:40 * kc5tja was even thinking of flat out replacing S" with it, because I see no further need for S".
17:24:58 <I440r> isforth has no s"
17:25:01 <I440r> i wont add it either
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17:45:24 <I440r_> grr
17:46:35 <kc5tja> That's OK -- you didn't miss much.  :D
17:46:51 <I440r_> lol
17:46:59 <I440r_> well why not ? 
17:47:06 <I440r_> you bunch of lazy no good idlers :)
17:47:10 <kc5tja> Because nothing happened.  :)
17:47:14 <I440r_> erm... just like me :)
17:47:50 * kc5tja is too busy playing with his pop-pop engines, trying to get them to go.  :)
17:48:02 <kc5tja> They kinda sorta wanna go, but, well, that's not good enough for me.  :D
17:48:02 <I440r_> pop-pop ?
17:48:38 <kc5tja> Take a 1/4" copper tube, and bend it in the middle, so you have a loop.  Fill it with water, submerse the open ends, and put a flame underneat the loop.
17:48:48 <kc5tja> In about 30 seconds to a minute, it'll start percolating like a coffee machine.
17:48:58 <kc5tja> If you're LUCKY, it'll even have thrust.
17:48:58 <kc5tja> :)
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17:49:17 <kc5tja> http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/
17:49:22 <kc5tja> gahh
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17:49:57 <kc5tja> http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/pop-pop/
17:50:03 <kc5tja> (before you disappear again)
17:50:06 <I440r_> grr this box is realy pissing me off
17:50:08 <I440r_> lol
17:52:05 <I440r_> looks intersting
17:52:23 <I440r_> i want to make a tesla turbine jet engine :)
17:52:23 * kc5tja nods
17:52:34 <kc5tja> That's one of my other goals.
17:52:47 <I440r_> i have a lathe i can make it with and the materials too
17:52:47 <kc5tja> But a more immediate goal is to power a water Tesla turbine with one of these pop-pop engines.
17:53:23 <I440r_> how come nobody actually uses the tesla turbine for pumping water etc ?
17:53:25 <I440r_> or do they ?
17:53:43 <kc5tja> There's a lot of established industry.
17:53:47 <I440r_> i know the pump on my swimming pool wasnt one. nor were any of the others we looked at
17:53:58 <kc5tja> Economy of scale is  such that traditional pumps are cheaper to make than Tesla turbines.
17:54:08 <I440r_> meaning the industry has its head up its ass ?
17:54:15 <I440r_> oh
17:54:19 <kc5tja> However, you'll occasionally find disc pumps in various applications like differentials and such.
17:54:34 <kc5tja> No ... I mean it's more economical to make traditional pumps than disc pumps.
17:54:44 <kc5tja> They're also lighter weight, and can start/stop faster.
17:55:23 <I440r_> but arent as efficient and take more power to run :/
17:55:25 <kc5tja> for example you'll never find Tesla turbines powering airplanes.  They're just too heavy.
17:55:34 <kc5tja> No, actually, that's not true.
17:55:37 <I440r_> what about in a car ?
17:55:46 <I440r_> for fuel pump or water pump
17:55:57 <kc5tja> In a car, it's possible, but again, unlikely.  The high mass means high moment of inertia, which is bad for handling.
17:55:59 <I440r_> or for the engine itself :)
17:56:15 <kc5tja> Oh, for fuel pump or water pump, it'd work.
17:56:19 <kc5tja> I thought you were talking about the engine.
17:56:24 <I440r_> that too :)
17:56:34 <I440r_> but for teh water pump or fuel pump
17:56:39 <kc5tja> The engine would be light weight, but the high moment of inertia would make handling difficult for it.
17:56:48 <I440r_> a very ver small tesla turbine would work well as a fuel pump :)
17:56:54 * kc5tja nods
17:57:12 <kc5tja> Actually, they don't pump as well as a positive displacement type pump.
17:57:16 <kc5tja> No turbine-based pump does.
17:57:32 <I440r_> i thunked the tesla turbine pump was very efficient
17:57:38 <I440r_> lile 98% or something
17:57:55 <kc5tja> Well, that's mechanical efficiency.  It's still only 15 to 25% thermodynamically efficient.
17:58:13 <kc5tja> You'd need to have three stages of turbines before you'd approach 48% efficiency.
17:58:50 <I440r_> hrm
17:59:00 <kc5tja> Basically, what it boils down to is this:
17:59:02 <I440r_> so a tesla turbine wouldnt work well as a jet engine ?
17:59:09 <kc5tja> Tesla turbines are damn easy to build and experiment with.
17:59:21 <kc5tja> but performance-wise, they're comparable to every other type of turbine out there.
17:59:36 <kc5tja> No, it'd absolutely SUCK as a jet engine, in fact.  :)
17:59:41 <I440r_> i.e. the tesla turbine sucks in the air AND the fuel and that gets sent to a combustion chanber where it goes bang etc...
17:59:50 <kc5tja> The exhaust would be way too wide to get a useful jet stream with it.
18:00:14 <kc5tja> Oh, you're talking about a gas turbine engine.
18:00:19 <I440r_> YES
18:00:21 <kc5tja> This is different from a "jet" engine per se.
18:00:32 <kc5tja> A jet engine is a gas turbine whose primary output is thrust, not torque.  :)
18:00:36 <kc5tja> That's why I was confused.
18:00:46 <kc5tja> A Tesla turbine MIGHT be good in this circumstance.
18:00:46 <I440r_> thats what i meant
18:00:57 <I440r_> i dont mean as torque. i mean as thrust
18:01:02 <kc5tja> People who've tried it reported lack-luster results, however.  I don't know much more than that.
18:01:09 <I440r_> aha
18:01:12 <kc5tja> uhh
18:01:13 <kc5tja> wait.
18:01:18 <kc5tja> Stop.
18:01:20 <I440r_> heh
18:01:31 <kc5tja> You are talking about a jet engine then.  TTs woudl suck eggs as jets.
18:01:45 <kc5tja> They ahve potential to work great as "normal" gas turbine engines.
18:02:03 <kc5tja> But as jets, they'd really not do well at all.
18:02:10 <kc5tja> Their physical geometry just isn't up to the task.
18:02:34 <I440r_> how aout a tesla turbine feeding air/fuel mixture into another turbine (with blades) engine
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18:03:00 <kc5tja> It'd probably not do too well in that application.
18:03:02 <I440r_> im not sure i could make one of those tho :)
18:03:12 <kc5tja> However, the reverse, where a bladed compressor feeds the Tesla turbine, would probably rock.
18:03:23 <I440r_> ah ? :)
18:03:43 <kc5tja> The Tesla pump's rotor housing has a lot of opportunity for blow-by losses.
18:03:54 <kc5tja> The Tesla turbine's rotor housing is much tighter in tolerances.
18:03:59 <kc5tja> It has less opportunity for blow-by.
18:04:19 <kc5tja> More gas would get converted to torque than in the pump.
18:04:29 <kc5tja> I'm just hypothesizing.
18:04:42 <kc5tja> But research suggests that Tesla turbines are more efficient than Tesla pumps.
18:04:57 <kc5tja> (at least for pumping air)
18:05:07 <I440r_> so whats teh difference between a tesla turbine and a tesla pump ?
18:05:29 <kc5tja> The direction of the gas flow, and the rotor housing.
18:05:43 <kc5tja> The pump has an involute rotor housing, while the turbine has a very cramped, close-quarters rotor housing.
18:05:55 <I440r_> you mean if you feed air into the axle of a tesla pump it causes the disks to rotate ?
18:06:04 <kc5tja> No.
18:06:26 <I440r_> pity heh
18:07:23 <kc5tja> I mean that if you spin the shaft of a Tesla pump to 4000RPM, you'll get a moderately pressurized stream of air moving at a particular velocity.
18:07:34 <I440r_> right
18:07:47 <kc5tja> That same velocity of air with a Tesla turbine will make it spin at a rate higher than 4000RPM, or at 4000RPM with greater torque.
18:07:53 <kc5tja> And no, there is no perpetual motion going on here.
18:08:10 <I440r_> ok... erm. im lost
18:08:29 <kc5tja> The reason is back-pressure -- any amount of backpressure on the pump will cause it to back up through the inlet.
18:08:42 <I440r_> stop
18:08:52 <kc5tja> umm..ok
18:09:20 <kc5tja> Well, I need to get to aikido anyway.
18:09:23 <I440r_> tesla pump with a motor attached. motor spins disks and axle and air/water gets pumped
18:09:32 <I440r_> so. explain a tesla turbine
18:09:32 * kc5tja nods
18:10:07 <kc5tja> Look it up on the net.  The primary difference between the two is in the rotor housing.
18:10:22 <kc5tja> The rotor housing of a pump is optimized to create pressure.
18:10:27 <kc5tja> The turbine is optimized to create torque.
18:10:29 <kc5tja> I have to go.
18:10:35 <kc5tja> Aikido time.
18:10:39 <I440r_> ive searcned for tesla turbine and tesla pump. i didnt know ethere was a difference, all ive found is the tesla pump :)
18:10:42 <I440r_> ok. have phun :)
18:10:52 * kc5tja sighs
18:10:54 <kc5tja> Hold...URLs coming.
18:11:02 <I440r_> k :)
18:11:20 <kc5tja> http://www.geocities.com/vair65_2000/tesla/
18:11:25 <kc5tja> The top three images is a tesla turbine
18:11:30 <kc5tja> The next row is a tesla pump
18:12:02 <kc5tja> Note how close the tolerances are in the turbine, while the pump has nothing but open space all around it.
18:12:50 <kc5tja> Anyway, adieu.  Be back around 10PM or so.
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21:16:34 <a7r_> yoh
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22:01:32 <a7r_> kc5tja: hey
22:01:46 <kc5tja> re :)
22:01:52 * kc5tja is too tired to type right now.
22:02:00 * kc5tja got thoroughly worked at aikido tonight.  :D
22:02:36 * a7r_ is reading Knuth
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