00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.24 00:05:24 re gilbertdeb 00:05:30 a7r: putt-putt 00:05:40 a7r: Cool. 00:05:50 Sorry, was browsing the web. Trying to write up a spec document. 00:05:53 now I just need to get the padding code working 00:06:15 I didn't realize it from the spec, but there's a padding step no matter what, even if it doesn't need one 00:06:18 I can't believe there isn't in existence a used-bookstore locator anywhere on the web!!! 00:08:00 * kc5tja doesn't know anything about SHA1 except that it's a hash. 00:08:21 * onetom neither 00:08:34 whats SHA1? 00:08:43 a cryptographic hashing algorithm 00:17:13 hey.. check it out 00:17:22 the reference app (hacked to dump state) 00:17:27 4F -- a 72F480ED :: b 6E9D9F84 :: c 999AE2F1 :: d 852DC41A :: e EC052519 00:17:27 DA 39 A3 EE 5E 6B 4B 0D 32 55 BF EF 95 60 18 90 AF D8 07 09 00:17:28 00:17:33 and my implementation 00:17:38 Stack<16> 4F 72F480ED 6E9D9F84 999AE2F1 852DC41A EC052519 00:17:43 Stack<16> DA39A3EE 5E6B4B0D 3255BFEF 95601890 AFD80709 00:18:04 kc5tja: thanks a lot for the info on ['] 00:20:37 * Speuler was porting a SHA1 once, but still doesn't know much about 00:31:37 No problem. 00:32:02 Rats. 00:32:04 I have to go to bed. 00:32:12 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 01:24:11 --- join: d-bug (~a@194.68.216.155) joined #forth 01:24:14 hi 01:24:25 hello 01:32:56 hrm, I need to learn to use the stack more 01:37:57 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 01:38:38 hi folks 01:39:12 hi serg 01:39:17 whadda u think about begging Intel to add some Forth opcodes to their CPU's ? 01:39:43 if some strong community will ask, any company is likely to do so 01:40:11 eh? 01:40:16 not likely at all 01:40:19 I think they'll laugh out loudly and go back to their beer. 01:40:43 i think forth can be implemented pretty well on x86 as it is 01:41:30 hmm.. show me one-opcode ROT or @A+ ... 01:42:26 i can't even com up w/ one-opcode DUP :( 01:42:26 do a better compiler that avoids those completly 01:43:39 and what about two hardware stacks ? 01:44:26 that's a problem 01:44:49 * serg often uses many stacks 01:45:25 on m68k, you had no (almost) hardware stack, but every address register could act like one using ()+ and -() 01:47:44 hmm.. m68k is as old as me - 1979 :((( 01:47:59 * serg needs something newer and stronger 01:48:14 * d-bug likes the MIPS architecture 01:49:18 it's clean and coherent 01:49:22 regular 01:50:41 --- join: natty_ (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 01:51:26 --- quit: natty (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:51:50 if anyone's interested, I've finished my first pass of my SHA1 implementation: 01:52:01 http://www.aereon.net/a7r/outgoing/sha1.fth 01:52:25 it needs a bunch of cleanup, less variable use, and auto padding isn't implemented yet 01:55:26 ... ZZzzz 01:55:36 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 02:14:58 --- nick: d-bug -> d-lunch 02:57:37 a7r: ur code is not that bad @ all 02:58:16 onetom: thanks 02:59:35 t0 @ h0 @ + h0 ! 02:59:53 can b written simpler like this: 03:00:01 t0 @ h0 +! 03:00:33 ah, killer 03:00:42 whats more, u can handle them as arrays 03:01:00 create t 5 cells allot 03:01:06 create h 5 cells allot 03:02:00 how do you cleanly keep handling the offsets? 03:02:17 just have a loop that copies? 03:02:51 : +!+ 2dup swap @ swap +! cell+ swap cell+ swap ; 03:03:24 : addctx t h +!+ +!+ +!+ +!+ +!+ 2drop ; 03:04:08 ah 03:04:52 or u can even swap t & h so their order is more comforming 2 the operation order 03:04:58 yeah 03:06:07 : a+ ( a as array) 2dup @ swap +! cell+ swap cell+ swap ; 03:06:21 : addctx h t a+ a+ a+ a+ a+ 2drop ; 03:07:02 tho ur version is probably faster 03:08:03 yeah, I like those notations though 03:08:15 I hadn't used +! or cell+ before. 03:08:50 I'd like to ultimately get rid of the t storage 03:09:00 : setstate h0 t0 5 cells cmove> ; 03:09:08 yeah 03:09:26 how do u think u can get rid of t? 03:09:41 I was hoping I could structure things to sit on the stack 03:09:55 aaaha 03:10:09 because if you look at the progression of the t variable contents, they migrate to the right 03:10:27 is should get a stronger grasp of the algorithm 2 help in that 03:11:00 new data comes in from munge, and then all existing data gets shifted 03:11:02 r u using gforth? 03:11:13 pforth 03:11:33 aham... :/ does it have DUMP ? 03:11:38 yeah 03:11:48 DUMP ( addr cnt --) 03:11:51 nah 03:12:11 : dumpctx h 5 cells dump ; 03:12:11 oh, well here is an example of the data moving: 03:12:21 ah 03:12:24 good call 03:12:35 0 -- a 9FB498B3 :: b 67452301 :: c 7BF36AE2 :: d 98BADCFE :: e 10325476 03:12:35 1 -- a 5D43E380 :: b 9FB498B3 :: c 59D148C0 :: d 7BF36AE2 :: e 98BADCFE 03:12:35 2 -- a 158D3162 :: b 5D43E380 :: c E7ED262C :: d 59D148C0 :: e 7BF36AE2 03:12:35 3 -- a CDED3AFD :: b 158D3162 :: c 1750F8E0 :: d E7ED262C :: e 59D148C0 03:12:35 4 -- a 695B587E :: b CDED3AFD :: c 85634C58 :: d 1750F8E0 :: e E7ED262C 03:13:11 as you can see, a -> b -> c (with some shifting) d -> e 03:13:35 oh, and a b c d e are t0 ... t4 03:15:23 * onetom tries 2 see :) 03:15:45 so I can pop e off 03:15:59 munch b 03:16:06 and then push a new a 03:16:15 w/ appropriate rotations 03:17:14 is it a usable thing for ssh? 03:17:29 it could be 03:17:33 or PGP 03:17:46 & is it a sufficient algorithm 4 it? 03:17:53 yeah 03:18:11 hmmm... sounds good. it doesnt seem so complex 03:18:18 this is a straight implementation of FIPS 180-1 03:18:29 it's only one part of DSA 03:18:30 what is that? 03:18:39 FIPS 180-1 is the secure hash standard 03:18:45 url? 03:18:48 it's what are used as message digests, for DSA 03:18:51 http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip180-1.htm 03:19:33 my code doesn't do the padding for you yet, which I've got sketched out, but not implemented 03:19:45 so run is an example of doing padding manually 03:21:31 hm, nice url, thx 03:21:51 yeah, it's a pretty good spec 03:22:20 I tried implementing from the description in _Applied Cryptography_, but it left out some pretty important information 03:22:39 so I smacked my head against a wall, until I went looking for the original FIPS spec 03:22:44 probably accidentally ;D 03:22:53 yeah 03:24:16 --- quit: serg ("Lost terminal") 03:26:05 --- join: karingo (karingo@183.portland-01-02rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 03:29:53 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:30:44 onetom: I'm trying to think of a good way to pull e out of the stack.. I'm thinking of just using roll.. does that make sense? 03:31:41 --- quit: karingo () 04:18:54 --- nick: d-lunch -> d-burp 04:29:34 a7r: that's the problem with forth, you end up thinking too much of how to access the arguments 04:30:22 eventually you find out how to do it without even thinking, i suppose, i never got that far. :) 04:34:14 --- quit: natty_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:34:14 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 04:36:57 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:41:57 --- quit: natty (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:42:03 --- join: natty_ (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 05:04:30 --- quit: natty_ (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:04:30 --- quit: onetom (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:04:54 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 05:04:58 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 05:28:30 --- nick: d-burp -> d-bug 05:33:54 --- join: mur_AFK (murr@baana-62-165-187-210.phnet.fi) joined #forth 05:34:56 --- nick: mur_AFK -> mur 05:39:56 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:42:10 --- quit: Robert (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:43:41 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:46:16 --- quit: Robert (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:46:40 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:54:03 --- quit: serg (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 05:54:23 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 05:58:26 --- quit: serg ("leaving") 06:01:10 --- quit: Robert (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 06:01:22 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 06:08:52 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:08:52 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 06:08:52 --- quit: sifbot (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:09:36 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:10:48 herkamire 06:11:24 hey mur :) 06:13:54 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:13:54 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 06:14:40 sifbot: you're late 06:14:41 herkamire: Word not found: you're 06:15:12 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805EF6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 06:23:52 can someone who understand window and german help me abit ? :P 06:25:21 mur: no windows here :( 06:26:35 well translation help perhaps? 06:26:56 that would do 06:27:08 * mur does now know if he installed wrong file 06:27:18 there were runtime_setup and setup 06:27:23 i installed runtime one 06:27:37 http://sector7g.wurzel6.de/pdfcreator/installation_en.htm what does that small dialog say? 06:28:07 anschluss´name? 06:28:14 name of connection 06:28:22 or connector 06:28:27 okay 06:28:42 * mur wonders where he should find such dialog :P 06:29:10 opened page 06:29:15 printer dialog ? 06:29:20 maybe 06:29:39 what is pfad angeben? 06:29:46 please enter path 06:30:15 \foo\bar\spool.ps 06:30:20 yes 06:30:41 ah, perhaps i shoudl install laserwriter that is file: and prints to certain .ps file and then try to find somewhere in the app the file 06:30:46 uh dialog 06:30:48 * mur tests 06:31:21 i guess that's the path where the resulting ps file should be written to 06:31:45 so when you print to this file printer, the file is written there 06:32:07 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:32:18 --- part: d-bug left #forth 06:35:30 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 06:35:32 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:40:41 Speuler yes you are right. it doesnt let me set default path and name, though :/ 06:40:54 i saved one on desktop and then run conversation, it worked okay. 06:41:04 fine 06:41:07 --- part: herkamire left #forth 06:41:19 perhaps the driver is too old.. 06:44:39 * XeF4 breaks into song.. "kuinka saisin rikki kookospähkinän?" 06:45:21 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:49:27 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 07:40:38 --- join: crc (12345678@ACAFAF23.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth 07:49:54 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 07:49:58 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 08:26:05 new project announcement, found on http://www.forthfreak.net, last paragraph 08:27:53 Speuler i got it working 08:28:06 but then i removed printer and i think i need to restart to make it work again 08:29:00 removing printer sounds more like having to reinstall printer ? 08:43:01 yes i will have to reboot before reinstalling 08:43:05 then it shoudl work 08:43:58 * Speuler shakes his head at the peculiarities of the efficiency os 08:44:44 * Speuler wonders even more that there are still people using it 09:15:18 95. i only use it because i cant' get colonization work in linux 09:15:30 this is 166 mhz 09:22:08 --- quit: mur ("MURR!") 09:31:33 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 09:34:58 --- join: I440r (~nospam@dialup-67.74.11.117.Dial1.Cincinnati.Level3.net) joined #forth 09:38:39 morning 09:43:24 hi 09:43:37 hows the encryption going ? 09:44:34 good, I finished my first pass at it last night. 09:44:58 http://www.aereon.net/a7r/outgoing/sha1.fth 09:45:29 thats cool 09:45:37 it's actually just a cryptographic hashing system, I'm not doing any encrypting yet, but that's next on my list. 09:45:42 now do AES 09:45:51 but you need SHA1 to do DSA, so I figure I'd start at the bottom. :) 09:45:58 heh 09:46:10 natty: yeah, I'd like to do AES, Blowfish, and do a quick RSA as well. 09:46:18 you are a machine 09:46:47 but this is the beginning 09:50:25 have you guys seen any MPEG1 (e.g. MP3) decoding done in Forth? 09:50:50 nope 10:08:28 --- quit: crc ("Leaving...") 10:08:54 Hey I440r :) How hard would it be to add floating-point support to IsForth? 10:09:29 I'm thinking about a little project, guess Forth is the most suitable language.. but I don't want to use gforth, it's evilish big&bloated. 10:17:29 ill add floating point when i have anssembler 10:17:46 but it will only be supported in the assembler 10:18:21 i wont have a float stack or float words other than assembler instructions 10:19:59 Bleh 10:20:05 Guess I'll have to do that then :P 10:20:21 Ah, well.. Guess C will have to do for now. 10:21:13 lol 10:21:36 theres nothing stopping you from adding floating point to isforth :) 10:21:55 Sure there is 10:21:58 Laziness! 10:47:55 lol 11:23:41 okay, I have another version of sha1 11:23:51 this time using only the stack, and 1 tmp variable 11:24:46 http://www.aereon.net/a7r/outgoing/sha1stack.fth 11:29:04 not bad 11:29:20 but split it up into smaller pieces 11:29:41 1 loop & 1 conditional / word is a good ratio 11:30:13 which words are you thinking? 11:30:20 like, cs? 11:30:28 cs w dorounds 11:30:52 dorounds I think would get a little weird if I split it, just because of my dependence on i 11:31:01 dup #A swap -> #A over 11:31:10 ah. 11:31:35 : !+ over ! cell+ ; 11:32:02 #A !+ #B !+ #C !+ #D !+ #E !+ 11:32:26 but 11:35:10 onetom: that !+ is elite 11:37:07 thats a machineForth-ism 11:37:22 autoincrementing store word 11:39:34 I changed popstate over to +! as well 11:39:48 instead of the @ + ! pull mess I had before 11:40:04 btw, i think its faster 2 implement a state stack than using the regular stack 4 this purpose 11:40:18 like in RAM? 11:40:24 yes 11:40:29 okay, I'll check that out. 11:40:51 create statestk 20 50 cells * allot 11:41:09 variable ssp (state stack pointer) 11:41:21 04-24 20:45:00 < a7r> okay, I'll check that out. 11:41:24 oops 11:41:29 statestk ssp ! 11:43:12 : pushstate interh ssp @ statesize cmove> statesize ssp +! ; 11:43:24 where 50 cells constant statesize 11:44:42 okay 11:44:44 : popstate statesize negate ssp +! ssp @ interh statesize cmove> ; 11:45:37 similary u can have a interh0 array & u can move it over interh in initctx 11:46:01 create interh0 #A , #B , #C , #D , #E , 11:46:21 : initctx interh0 interh 5 cells cmove> ; 11:46:22 okay 11:47:47 how long have you been coding in forth? 11:48:27 ... 11:48:45 i havent really coded 4th actively 11:49:18 what do you normally use? 11:49:39 im investigating the newest inventions of the 4th world for ~ a yr 11:49:50 normally? well... i use my mind ;) 11:50:02 haha 11:50:20 im forced 2 use everyday programs, like: 11:50:39 sh, awk, m4, sed, tr, vi 11:50:53 & python because of zope 11:51:12 yeah, I use python quite a bit as well 11:51:21 but in the last few yrs i havent programmed any serious things 11:51:41 i was just researching languages 11:51:57 oh, i almost forgot tcl/tk 11:52:15 i also use it sometimes, but not seriously again 11:52:42 infact im a pascal programmer basically 11:53:18 iwas using delphi4 a lot ~ 5yrs 11:53:49 then came linux & iwas usually learning it but not using it very seriously 11:54:32 iwas in the development of a building automation system 11:55:21 it was mainly written in gforth on pc & in picforth 4 the pic microcontrolers 11:55:26 cool 11:55:36 thats all my experience 11:56:09 but it was not 4this enough yet 11:57:01 then came my civil service period (instead of the regulatory military service) 11:57:38 ~10 month ago & iwas reading docs from ultratechnology.com for several month 11:58:04 then i became a flux (a colorforth variant) fan 11:58:39 I'd like to get something like colorforth up on some of my PowerPC boxes 11:59:07 many ppl would like 2 get such a thing ;) 11:59:40 I've started writing an IPv6 stack in Forth as well, but I'm about 10% done 11:59:47 wow 12:00:10 thats a nice subject 4 practicing :) 12:00:19 yeah. 12:00:27 I wanted to learn the IPv6 specs more, and Forth 12:00:34 so I just stuck them together 12:00:40 im not tryin 2 write too much or too complicated things 12:00:56 until i clearly see how would it b the most efficient 2 write programs 12:01:25 yeah 12:01:36 its very hard 2 make the transition from the object oriented pascal (tvision/delphi) to colorforth 12:01:49 I'm trying to learn Forth's style, rather forcing some previous style I knew onto it. 12:01:57 but its a terribly exciting & attractive step 12:02:27 yeah, thats the only thing what ppl can do 4 the 1st time 12:03:07 my goal is to be able to IRC from openfirmware by the end of the year. 12:03:10 .. with IPv6 12:03:20 but using 4th that way doesnt really make it different from any other language 12:03:41 nod. 12:03:58 geee :) very desirable goal 12:04:23 i would also b very happy 2 see such a solution 12:04:36 but im tied 2 x86 unfortunately :( 12:05:08 i cant afford a ppc & i dont even know its assembly & dont know much about that architecture 12:05:14 nod 12:05:47 I figure if I code things right, you just need to be responsible for getting your networking hardware hooked up to the networking stack 12:05:59 have u heard about coldforth? 12:06:17 no 12:06:49 http://www.forth.org.ru/~mlg/mirror/coldforth.teegra.net/tcpippaper/tcp_ip.html 12:07:02 ah 12:07:03 interesting 12:07:06 its open source 12:07:07 very 12:10:56 wow 12:19:00 hehe, its object oriented 12:19:27 m: ( --) 12:19:27 _get_responce 12:19:27 ; overrides :hay_you_there 12:19:54 -- quote from tcp_client.html 12:20:48 i advice u all that download this mirror until some1 forces them 2 remove it from the net 12:21:04 its a rather brilliant program 12:26:12 --- quit: I440r (No route to host) 12:38:47 --- join: I440r (~nospam@dialup-65.57.3.236.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 12:53:39 --- quit: a7r ("Client exiting") 13:13:34 --- join: flyflu (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 13:15:45 --- part: flyflu left #forth 13:19:53 --- join: flyflu (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 13:44:23 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 13:46:43 hey 13:51:05 hi 14:02:28 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 14:02:53 Wassup? 14:06:43 not much 14:09:31 Reading up on syscalls here. 14:10:10 * onetom is watchin the film tabu 14:11:08 Goddamn I'm rusty. 14:16:00 why? 14:16:10 Why what? 14:16:21 why r u rusty? 14:16:36 Havent done it in a long time. 14:16:49 done what? 14:16:55 Havent programmed much lately, cept for the past couple weeks. 14:17:11 Too busy working. 14:17:25 me 2 14:30:14 * ramnull is lurking 14:34:32 --- quit: I440r (No route to host) 14:56:39 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 15:22:22 --- join: tcn (~r@tc1-login27.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:33:18 --- quit: ramnull ("This isn't Happy Hour!") 15:35:27 --- quit: tcn ("That's it for today") 16:26:28 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:43:22 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:44:59 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba447a.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 17:17:43 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-74.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 17:18:02 hello 17:21:38 re 17:21:50 Amiga is evil! 17:22:15 I just realized they are the reason computers are trying so hard to be game machines!!! 17:22:44 the unfortunate consequence of this is that in the mind of the masses, all computers must be some Idealized Amiga!!! 17:23:45 Amiga should have used what I call Bubka's law. Introduce a sliver of improvement once every couple of years. 17:25:21 I disagree, but whatever. 17:25:27 why do you disagree? 17:25:38 the machines were designed from day one to be game machines! 17:26:01 is that agreeable? 17:26:05 Not *quite*, but the gaming industry was booming back then, so they did cater to it. 17:26:38 But the Amiga represented a great deal of simplicity and minimalism in its design. 17:26:44 the little company swayed the WHOLE computer industry into dancing according to its beat. thats a feat. 17:26:46 They were able to do so much because it had so little. 17:27:08 The PC industry still "doesn't get it" about the Amiga. 17:27:19 what does the pc industry not get that it should? 17:27:35 that you don't have to implement mmx technology to get the same fantastic graphics etc? 17:27:43 Minimalism, like i said. 17:27:53 We've got machines with over a trillian transistors in them. 17:28:21 (counting the CPU, graphics chips, etc) 17:28:47 yeah, fear. 17:29:14 why HAS the pc industry gone the way of waste of resources when clearly the Amiga was doing what the pc is now doing? 17:32:35 gilbertdeb: I think it comes down to the middle of the bell curve. 17:32:51 how? 17:33:00 and how just showing up in some ways grants you success. 17:33:28 gilbertdeb: the center of the computer user bell curve, consists of people that don't really care. 17:33:29 _.,;||;,_ 17:33:36 _.,;||;,._ 17:33:47 terrible bell curve, that ^ 17:34:04 so even if something is ``better'' .. it depends on how you're judging. 17:34:21 so the unsaviness of the users is the reason? 17:34:23 and if you're judging by the aspects that the middle of that curve cares about, the Amiga wasn't the best. 17:34:52 granted, I'm speaking as someone who didn't have an amiga. 17:35:05 why wouldn't it have been the best? lack of availability? 17:35:13 lack of software? 17:35:18 availability, poor marketing, etc 17:35:38 you had IBM and friends, w/ a lot of the business market, and a ton of money, slowly plodding along 17:35:50 fostering Microsoft 17:35:53 they weren't any faster than the available amigas. 17:36:03 no, I mean as a company 17:36:31 so you get them producing something.. that are being bought by businesses 17:36:48 and built from off the shelf parts. 17:37:05 and then Compaq reverse-engineers a BIOS, and starts putting out clones. 17:37:11 hmmm. the amiga was built from off the shelf parts, weren't they kc5tja? 17:37:21 At least they used the same chips as the apples. 17:37:41 AFAIK the sound and graphics chips were custom. 17:37:58 I don't know a lot about XTs, but I think everything was easy to obtain. 17:40:11 .. except the BIOS contents.. and when that got reverse engineered, it didn't matter anymore. 17:40:29 not to mention Microsoft had free reign to sell the base OS to anyone they wanted. 17:41:28 still surprises me that for such a shoddy product, and an easy to make product such as dos, no one bothered to offer counter-products! 17:41:33 or they did and they floundered? 17:41:51 they did make counter products 17:42:00 which used the exact same technology. :) 17:42:21 which is why the clone market got huge.. x86/DOS became a de facto standard 17:42:35 _how_ ? 17:42:49 a7r: if you could, would you have offered something to counter Dos then? 17:43:03 because anyone could build one easily, and there was a demand for them, because of existing market share 17:43:16 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 17:43:43 gilbertdeb: I'm not sure.. I was using an Apple /// when this was all happening. 17:43:45 No. The Amiga had four fully custom chips in it. 17:44:02 kc5tja: are those currently emulable? 17:44:08 Agnus chip was the DMA controller/coprocessor chip (it housed the blitter and the COPPER coprocessors) 17:44:13 or are there patent issues associated with them? 17:44:15 gilbertdeb: UAE emulates them 17:44:36 Denise was the display chip, which handled sprites as well as playfield graphics 17:44:57 Paula was the audio chip, floppy interface, interrupt manager, mouse/joystick chip, and UART chip. 17:45:20 And "Buster" (Amiga 2000, 3000, and 4000 series only), which was the Zorro-II/III bus controller. 17:45:35 The GARY chip wasn't a true custom chip -- it was a pre-programmed sea-of-gates logic chip. 17:46:55 kc5tja or anyone, have you read the r.g. loeliger book? 17:47:19 heheh liger, lion-tiger . 17:47:22 I digress. 17:47:36 No 17:47:38 Never heard of it. 17:48:13 --- join: tcn (~r@tc2-login32.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 17:48:20 "threaded interpretive languages" ... 17:48:43 thats the title of the book r.g. loeliger wrote. 17:48:54 Thinking of getting a copy. 17:49:00 its written in z80asm 17:51:28 gilbertdeb: BTW, why do you ask about the amiga? 17:52:16 kc5tja told me about how simple a machine it was... 17:52:36 at the same time how powerful it was. 17:53:38 yeah 17:53:48 a7r: I am a big fan of sassenrath's new language rebol. 17:53:51 I think the biggest problem right now is software,. 17:53:54 he happens to be 4thsmith. 17:54:02 I feel cool w/ hardware. 17:54:07 a7r: how is it a problem? 17:54:18 gilbertdeb: 95% of it sucks rocks 17:54:22 a7r: especially user interfaces. big problem. 17:54:42 nod. 17:54:43 I almost bought a copy of Raskin's book to read yesterday. 17:54:52 yeah, I bought that 17:55:00 hardware user interfaces too.. like those damn pushbutton monitor controls 17:55:01