00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.23 00:23:19 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4e35.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 00:39:21 Going to bed. 00:39:31 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 01:00:19 --- join: karingo (karingo@87.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 01:00:39 --- join: njd (melons@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 01:20:00 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-71.phnet.fi) joined #forth 01:58:27 --- quit: karingo () 02:03:32 --- join: karingo (karingo@87.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 02:08:48 --- quit: mur (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:10:13 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-71.phnet.fi) joined #forth 02:43:16 --- quit: mur (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:46:57 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-71.phnet.fi) joined #forth 02:58:43 --- quit: mur ("MURR!") 03:03:51 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-185-212.phnet.fi) joined #forth 03:04:01 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Monk has left the building") 03:17:27 --- join: serg (~serg@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 03:17:51 --- quit: serg (Client Quit) 03:33:02 --- quit: karingo (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:40:55 --- join: karingo (karingo@154.portland-11-12rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 04:18:38 --- part: mur left #forth 04:22:52 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-71.phnet.fi) joined #forth 04:56:36 --- quit: karingo () 05:31:03 --- join: karingo (karingo@154.portland-11-12rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 05:38:54 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:11:34 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:35:10 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 06:35:10 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 06:45:54 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:46:22 sifbot: .( <3) 06:46:24 Robert: <3 06:48:45 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:08:21 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-187-71.phnet.fi) joined #forth 07:37:10 --- quit: karingo () 08:35:39 --- nick: mur -> mur_AFK 08:58:10 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 09:04:21 --- quit: mur_AFK ("MURR!") 09:31:04 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba496f.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 09:55:57 --- quit: natty (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:56:05 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 10:02:58 --- join: hefner (~hefner1@ecs021pc19-lx.ucslab.umbc.edu) joined #forth 10:56:18 --- quit: hefner ("goes to class") 11:31:53 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 11:59:54 --- join: Fractal_ (ofshavyr@new.cure.for.SARS.found.to.be.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 12:01:32 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:20:51 ha. 12:20:55 nice host. 12:28:45 Yes. :) 12:46:06 --- join: karingo (karingo@5.portland-03-04rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 13:02:30 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-186-141.phnet.fi) joined #forth 13:04:19 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 13:04:25 hey.. 13:05:06 hello 13:06:20 if anyone has a second, I have a question regarding Forth 13:06:54 irc is slow, just ask question and wait. patience is virtue, and silence is gold. >:) 13:07:01 yeah 13:07:17 I'm implementing SHA1 in Forth.. and had a technique question. 13:08:06 SHA1 has 80 rounds of computation it does, w/ aspect of the rounds changing over different sets of rounds, but with the main loop's structure remaining the same. 13:08:44 in C I'd go w/ pointers to functions, and have the primary loop change by changing out the pointers depending on what round I was in 13:09:09 its also possible in 4th of course 13:09:16 okay, so that's what I'm missing 13:09:22 I know I can get the addr to a word w/ ' 13:09:40 but how would I make calls against that addr? 13:09:49 ' AWORD leaves the execution address of the word named AWORD on the stack 13:09:52 (I started learning Forth yesterday, so I'm really new at this) 13:10:01 then u can say EXECUTE 13:10:04 ah 13:10:07 okay 13:10:11 just try it: 13:10:18 : a ." this is word a" ; 13:10:22 yeah, I was missing the idea of EXECUTE 13:10:23 ' a dup . execute 13:10:34 slick 13:10:35 I'm cool now, thanks. 13:10:42 np 13:11:02 onetom: BTW, as far as Forth style goes, is doing a pointer-to-function setup sane, or should I be looking at a different approach? 13:11:23 a7r: its a very good question 13:11:51 a7r: but unless seein the whole problem (i dont know much about sha1) im not able 2 answer it 13:12:00 onetom: OKay 13:12:16 I'll implement things the way I'm thinking, and I'll stick some code up, if anyone wants to comment. 13:14:43 a7r: but probably there is a more 4thish way.. usually there is 1 13:15:18 sure, show us & then we could more easily give u comments/ideas 13:27:12 --- quit: karingo () 13:38:06 hrm, I wonder if I just found a bug in pforth 13:39:05 : s1 #k1 k ! ' f1 f ! ; 13:39:35 that spits back an error: ' could not find ok 13:39:52 but running #k1 k ! ' f1 f ! by hand works as expected. 13:40:06 yeah 13:40:08 ' 13:40:11 ' is immediate 13:40:16 Exactly. 13:40:24 ['] :) 13:40:24 u should use ['] inside definitions 13:40:28 damn 13:40:29 Or something similar. 13:40:32 you guys are too quick for me 13:40:36 :) 13:40:56 : print-address-of ' . ; 13:41:01 print-address-of dup 13:41:13 while: 13:41:27 : print-address-of-. ['] . ; 13:41:31 print-address-of-. . 13:41:46 okay 13:41:52 Actually, ' isn't immediate; so when you run s1 above, the first time it sees "'", it executes it, thus taking input from the input stream (or trying to). 13:42:01 ['] is immediate, which is what you want in this case. 13:42:12 Yeah. 13:42:13 Where are you from, a7r? 13:42:19 Central California 13:42:27 OK :) 13:42:40 kc5tja: okay, cool. 13:42:55 Robert: does it show? ;) 13:43:35 kc5tja: great, that's working as expected. 13:44:40 :) 13:49:28 Heh. No, that's exactly why I asked. 13:49:31 kc5tja: yeah, thats right, i missed the _not_ again 14:05:06 --- join: CaffeineJunkie (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba496f.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 14:05:54 CaffeineJunkie ;) 14:06:22 --- nick: CaffeineJunkie -> Speuler 14:08:16 so print-address-of prints the address of something, and print-address-of-. prints the actual word in the dictonary? 14:08:29 still trying to sort out the difference: I should probably read through the handbook actually. 14:10:53 ianni: 2 r right 14:10:59 eeer 14:11:02 ianni: u r right 14:11:43 right, but im trying to figure out what the first one points to :) 14:11:56 and why the numebr is lower. does the stack grow from high to low? (the dictionary) 14:12:00 err 14:12:28 ? 14:12:32 na, again: 14:12:38 : x ' . ; 14:12:40 i mean, why would print-address-of not fail 14:12:41 x dup 14:12:49 prints the address of dup 14:12:49 there is nothign on the stack for ' to operate on? 14:12:54 hmm 14:13:20 ' requires nothin on the stack but in the tib (terminal input buffer) 14:13:32 in the src code so 2 say 14:13:38 I see! 14:13:51 * onetom happy about it ;) 14:14:05 in the case u really do >:) 14:14:22 well... i have learned some 14:14:36 brb -- going to radio shack. 14:14:39 slowly gaining more grasp on it, that helps understand a lot more. 14:14:42 Picking up a 10ft 9-pin serial cable. 14:14:57 I bought some good books on assembly language - decided to learn that to get a better grasp of the machine 14:14:57 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-rs 14:15:03 it's high time :) 14:15:47 i see, i see, interpreter and compiler 14:15:51 now it all makes more sense 14:15:58 do u have dos? 14:16:00 of why there is a distinction 14:16:03 does tbw visit usually weekends? 14:16:09 I do, sortof 14:16:16 I have machines available I could use... 14:16:16 coz i could offer u a great asm learnin companion 14:16:28 the Advanced Fullscreen Debugger (AFD.COM) 14:16:35 onetom... well I suppose I have no good reason to pass that up - although I was planning on learning PPC 14:16:42 sounds interesting 14:16:46 its interactive 14:17:01 u write machine code or assembly 14:17:11 it compiles vica-versa immediately 14:17:22 & u can also execute it immediately 14:17:32 nice 14:17:48 while u can c the whole status of the x86 processor 14:18:07 its a very old real mode (16bit) program 14:18:16 but just perfect 4 learning 14:18:29 i use mostly mac... but if it would help, maybe it would be worth it 14:18:37 i do have a windows box.. where can i get it? 14:18:40 u can also step into the dos/bios interrupt services 2 investigate them & so on 14:18:53 nowhere 14:18:56 sounds helpful - visualization is big 14:18:59 tho... ;) 14:19:04 hmm 14:19:04 how can I get it to come to me then? :) 14:19:13 * ianni greps the ether 14:19:19 x86 is not the nicest cpu to program in asm 14:19:20 email addr? 14:19:28 ian@inpuj.net 14:19:30 Speuler: really, why? 14:19:35 yeah 14:19:38 I hear people saying various other things are better 14:19:38 to many special cases 14:19:39 its a mess 14:19:44 oh 14:19:46 he said "not" 14:19:57 yeah, thats what I hear too 14:20:13 though maybe it would be like swinging a baseball bat with weights 14:20:17 hehe 14:20:41 ianni: what's the purpose of learning asm for you ? 14:21:12 to better understand the machine, to be a better programmer 14:21:24 and also i'd like to write a fast forth 14:21:45 i just have spent too much time being abstracted away from the machine.. i dont understand it well enough 14:21:50 ianni: to write forth in, motorola cpus are nice 14:22:16 ianni: sent 14:22:19 basically i have no prerequesites other than learning how machines work internally 14:22:20 thanks 14:22:48 as long as the knowledge is applicable to other things anyway. I *would* like to be able to write my hotspots in ASM for example, too 14:22:55 what processor is that asm book 4? 14:22:57 that's true power... 14:23:19 onetom: thin recommended a book by Duntemann.. said it was very.. abstracted from any architecture as I took it 14:23:31 also, another person recommended this massive book 14:23:32 aaahaa c 14:23:39 ianni: i'd consider using a simple cpu with a small instruction set first 14:23:47 that should b a very good 1 then 14:24:09 well - I tried to learn ASM first with AoA years ago. and he said it sucks. so I'm interested to see how good this will be 14:24:11 ianni: either by emulation, or prototype board 14:24:12 ianni: me suggest it too. eg, pic microcontroller.. 14:24:23 yeah, I've actually looked at pics before.. very very cool 14:24:26 ianni: just 32 instructions 14:24:42 my friend was doing a project with one and I learned a bit about to possibly help him... 14:24:45 they seem really useful 14:24:47 ianni: & there r also free simulators 4 it 14:24:50 right 14:25:12 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 14:25:34 also got this 14:25:34 1 of Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach [Hardcover] by John Hennessy..., $20.00 14:25:35 ianni: a very nice pcb drawing program (proteus, commercial, but... edonkey? ;) can even simulate them in circuits.. 14:25:42 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 14:25:43 which seems to be all about all the archs 14:26:04 hehe ;) 14:26:23 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 14:26:58 it can even simulate a beeper attached 2 a pic beside 7segment displays, motors, keypads .. 14:29:10 nice :) 14:29:14 proteus? 14:29:29 can't you get that kinda software from the company? 14:29:56 or were yo utalking about 'proteus' 14:32:05 ? 14:32:20 sure, i can get it from the company 14:32:27 they even offer a demo i think 14:32:44 but the real , unlimited version is not that cheap 14:32:48 --- join: CaffeineJunkie (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4fea.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 14:33:00 we cant afford buyin it 14:33:11 i wish we could.... 14:33:20 had a disconnect 14:33:35 tho, its the most cheap-es integrated circuit production system 14:33:38 yeah, that would be nice 14:33:41 yeah, it's what like $5? 14:33:43 cheapest 14:34:00 something cheap 14:34:03 probably $50 or $150 14:34:12 but not much more 14:34:17 oh 14:34:19 but let me c it 14:35:00 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 14:35:47 eh, no, sorry, i was wrong :( 14:36:49 RODUCT INFORMATION 14:36:50 PRICE 14:36:50 PROTEUS LEVEL 1 SCHEMATIC/PCB DESIGN SYSTEM 14:36:50 $485 14:36:50 PROTEUS LEVEL 1 SIMULATION SYSTEM 14:36:52 $485 14:36:55 PROTEUS LEVEL 1 COMPLETE 14:37:03 $649 14:37:15 so the cheapest config is ~$500 14:37:29 its the Level 1 - 1000 Pin Capacity, Standard Autorouting version 14:37:35 http://www.r4systems.com/prices.htm 14:38:06 but its the best 14:38:30 I meant for the PICs ... 14:38:32 themselves 14:38:42 my father tried all these systems, but its the most convenient, the fastest, the smartest, etc 14:38:42 yeah that is a tad pricey :) 14:38:56 what, other things than PIC cards you mean? 14:39:37 orcad, pcad, tango, eagle, xpcb... all bullshit 14:39:58 PIC cards? pardon? 14:40:17 ah, the pics r really cheap, yes 14:40:19 the chips 14:40:21 rather 14:40:27 --- quit: herkamire (Remote closed the connection) 14:40:29 but what cards r u talkin about? 14:40:34 the PIC itself 14:40:42 k 14:40:43 C stands for chip, i take it 14:40:48 hence the confusion.. 14:40:48 ianni: pic can run with just a resitor/capacitor for clock 14:40:53 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:41:04 oh, no, c is c (see) 14:41:05 ianni: better think about a breadboard 14:41:14 c? ;) 14:41:19 ha. 14:41:33 10 EUR 14:41:36 CaffeineJunkie - I've heard the term. I'm an electronics newbie.. i dont even hardly know the basics... 14:41:41 i forgot what it means 14:41:56 an array of spring contacts 14:42:13 connected in rows 14:42:16 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:42:27 --- nick: CaffeineJunkie -> Speuler 14:42:56 you can stick electronic components in 14:43:00 and wires 14:43:36 there are two bars with contacts for power 14:44:05 they are for prototyping electronic circuits without soldering 14:44:17 ah 14:44:30 useful to stick a microcontroller in, for example 14:44:39 yeah I've had that idea in the back of my head for a while, wanting to ge ta PIC and learn to make it do things :) 14:44:43 such as a pic 14:44:44 it would be so fun in forth, especially 14:44:55 hmm 14:45:07 pic 16x not powerful enough for forth 14:45:16 ahh, darn :) 14:45:28 at least, not without external ram 14:45:33 but i thought my friend said he was doing BASIC or C stamps on his 14:45:41 thats why I even know about them, he was asking if i could do the C 14:45:56 the 17x line is better for that 14:46:06 gotcha 14:46:40 16xxx has about 128...192 registers. some of them with functions, rest is your memory 14:47:17 --- quit: Fractal_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:47:23 i think the avr mc would be better for your purpose 14:48:50 i've written a forth runtime kernel for pic 16xxx 14:49:03 but it is not an interactive forth 14:49:07 the one we were looking at is a PIC12C5XX 14:49:15 --- join: I440r (~nospam@dialup-67.74.6.230.Dial1.Cincinnati.Level3.net) joined #forth 14:49:18 i think he was going to use BASIC to get his job done 14:49:28 this was a smart electronics guy, but not much of a programmer 14:50:11 --- join: Fractal_ (fcdwbqv@new.cure.for.SARS.found.to.be.strongLSD.com) joined #forth 14:50:13 forget about writing a forth for the 12xxx line 14:50:20 eh ... 14:50:28 15xxx it is i think 14:50:34 12 bit instructions 14:51:27 Iwasnt thinking about it 14:51:31 im pretty naive 14:51:36 problem with that is, you need to get the program into the controller first 14:52:51 that's not exactly trivial to do. 14:53:13 a cheap pic programmer would simpiify that 14:54:20 what, for the smaller ones, or for the larger ones? 14:55:16 for 15xx and 16xx for sure. don't know what support the 17xx offer for program download 14:55:49 probably two pins, used as i2c interface 14:58:00 this is all over my head really.. well only now becuase im ignorant :) 14:59:12 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4fea.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 14:59:32 --- join: skylan (sjh@Sprint245.tbaytel.net) joined #forth 15:02:47 * ianni wanders afk - thanks 4thers 15:11:23 lol 15:17:56 * kc-rs is having a blast! 15:17:59 --- nick: kc-rs -> kc5tja 15:18:09 * kc5tja is successfully controlling his radio from his computer! 15:18:13 :) 15:18:15 This is SWEET! 15:18:29 now only to decide what to listen to 15:18:36 * natty is controlling his computer from his RDFer :) 15:18:43 thats cool dude 15:18:43 Heh 15:18:53 put it on the web so I can listen to stuff ) 15:18:54 I didn't expect controlling the radio would be this easy. 15:19:06 ;) Set up shoutcast 15:19:10 It's not even what i intended to do, but man, I'm seriously thinking of making a Kenwood TS-2000 controller for Linux now. :D 15:19:24 It doesn't do audio -- it's just the radio controls. 15:19:28 It's 9600bps RS-232. :) 15:26:27 --- join: monk23 (monk23@mstr195175-33301.dial-in.ttnet.net.tr) joined #forth 15:26:46 hi :) 15:30:02 haha 15:30:04 damn 15:31:23 :P 15:31:40 what's up ? 15:32:49 hello. nothign really i'm going sleep soon 15:32:52 I just realized I had clashing words 15:38:28 * a7r comes back to this code later. 15:46:57 --- quit: mur ("MUR!") 15:55:29 --- quit: a7r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:23:04 --- quit: monk23 () 16:25:22 --- quit: semtex (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:28:32 * kc5tja is having fun on packet radio. :) 16:28:39 Nothing like using a network at 1200bps. :D 16:28:57 Though, I have to admit, moving away from AX.25 and towards ATM will offer incredible rewards for the network, even at 1200bps. 16:29:14 * kc5tja must experiment with this. I simply must. 16:33:54 --- quit: Speuler (Connection timed out) 16:35:56 --- join: semtex (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba47f7.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 16:40:06 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba47f7.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth 16:56:02 --- join: a7r (~a7r@206.72.82.135) joined #forth 17:05:19 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 17:05:26 back in a bit 17:18:51 --- quit: I440r (Connection timed out) 17:33:28 Okay nobody on #hamradio can answer my question. Why is there such a total lack of robotic technology in the star trek universe? 17:33:44 We've got Data, and in one episode some nanites, and thats it 17:34:28 in star wars a ship gets hit and a whole swarm of r2 droids come flying out to fix the damage on the fly 17:35:11 in star trek the ship takes damage and it doesn't get fixed until geordi and wesley climb up 40 stories on a ladder in a broken turboshaft to get to it 17:46:03 natty: in borg attacking earth, they were using nanites against the borg 17:46:32 then there's v'ger 17:47:25 i guess the federation has outlawed robots 17:48:20 no autonomous machines with less intelligence than an androit 17:48:54 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 17:50:06 seems that way 17:51:48 they read asimov, and found their bots couldn't live up to those moral standards 17:53:48 I said (basically) the same thing in #hamradio. :D 17:55:06 --- quit: njd () 18:10:12 --- join: I440r_ (~nospam@dialup-63.210.228.2.Dial1.Cincinnati1.Level3.net) joined #forth 18:50:01 is it okay to call do_gettimeofday in an interrupt handler? 18:50:57 erm you can make syscalls from within interrupts yes 18:51:36 but not if they might sleep, so I guess the real question is might do_gettimeofday call sleep 18:51:46 i suppose I can look at the source 18:52:04 Hmm...I can't imagine why it would... 18:53:24 do any of the syscalls sleep ? 18:53:33 other than the useep syscall etc lol 18:53:53 nevermind 18:53:53 I 18:53:55 Any I/O function can potentially sleep if the file descriptor is not in asynchronous I/O mode. 18:54:02 They use it in an ISR in an example in LDD :) 18:54:14 I was looking at that same page I just hadn't looked at their example :) 19:05:37 --- join: herkamire (~jason@h0030657bb518.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 19:07:22 re herkamire 19:08:17 hey kc5tja :) 19:09:16 is there a clean way to ensure that every time a process reads from a char device, a fixed length record is returned? IE I want data to be transfered in atomic chunks larger than a byte. 19:09:58 I could just return a failure code if the process tries to read fewer bytes than the size of the datum 19:10:32 shouldn't you buffer it? 19:12:03 How do you mean? There's a data structure in a buffer in the driver, and I want to reliably transfer that whole blob at once to the process. 19:12:21 I either want to the whole blob to go at once and intact, or else I don't want it to go at all 19:12:34 I was just wondering if there was some trick for it 19:13:01 I don't know much about devices, but I figured a char device would be one you could read/write char[s] too. 19:13:56 well it is mostly sort of 19:14:31 block drivers are mostly disks, and char drivers are mostly everything else 19:17:50 ok. I suppose spitting out an error would be fine. If somebody is read/writing your device, they aught to know what they're doing. 19:18:02 yeah tru 19:20:07 you could run into this same problem if, for example, you were trying to read fixed width binary fields out of a data file 19:20:30 of course there a driver wouldn't be around to smack you for reading less than a field width 19:20:49 i guess in that situation you would just have to keep track of your offset into the file 19:21:11 I wonder if I can use that it my driver, I think I can manipulate the offset the process sees 19:21:43 probably if they only read part of it it's because they're using a bit at a time and they'll read the rest and put it together later. 19:22:02 what? fseek? 19:34:56 --- quit: I440r_ () 19:36:06 I guess I can look at the source for some of the usb drivers in the kernel distro. Holy shit linux rules like that :) 19:38:10 Heheh :D 19:38:18 Is your current USB software user-mode or kernel-mode? 19:39:02 the driver is kernel mode and the application is usermode 19:39:31 I'm going to GPL the driver (well I kind of have to since it's based on GPLed code) 19:39:58 I wish I could GPL the PIC source but unfortunately I'm using Microchip's stupid copyrighted USB code 19:40:19 I wish I had the time to reimplement their USB support from scratch so it could be open source 19:41:05 I can still release the stuff I added but I can't GPL it since the GPL doesn't allow you to GPL code which must link with non-GPL code (sucks) 19:43:35 heh 19:43:49 * kc5tja nods 19:52:56 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-74.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 19:55:29 re gilbertdeb 19:55:37 hey kc5tja 19:55:45 * kc5tja has a new e-mail address of sorts, though you probably won't be able to send mail to it. :) 19:56:07 kc5tja@weirdradio.com? 19:56:10 ;) 19:56:34 Nope. 19:56:44 KC5TJA@W6NWG.#SCA.CA.USA.NOAM 19:57:15 noam? 19:57:19 chomsky? 19:57:26 i want a fidonet address 19:57:29 NOAM = North America 19:57:30 or no amplitude modulation. 19:57:33 I bet I wouldn't get any spam 19:57:34 USA = United States of America 19:57:38 CA = California 19:57:49 sca == soutch california? 19:57:51 #SCA = Southern California district (the # means it's an optional field) 19:57:59 W6NWG is the name of the BBS holding my e-mail. :) 19:58:09 bbs's still live? 19:58:13 natty: Nope, not today at least. 19:58:24 gilbertdeb: For ham radio, definitely. That's all we have. 19:58:35 why is that all you have? whats wrong with the web? 19:58:40 The networking infrastructure, while *good*, isn't evolved to true client/server yet like the Internet. 19:59:41 gilbertdeb: It's all we have because ham radio operators have little to no clue about how to set up a network. 19:59:56 I am still lost. 20:00:03 The software powering the existing network is woefully inadequate compared the TCP/IP stacks. Much of it has to do with the wholesale inadequacies of the AX.25 protocol we currently use. 20:00:03 ham radio operators ARE geeks! 20:00:34 kc5tja: what do you know about alohanet? 20:00:40 And the next biggest reason, the network is only 1200bps on the 2m band, and 9600bps on the 70cm band. 20:00:55 gilbertdeb: I've heard of it, but am unfamiliar with it other than it's a packet radio service. 20:01:11 isn't it related to what you ham folks are doing? 20:01:16 Yes 20:01:22 They evolved at roughly the same time. 20:01:23 IIRC 20:01:33 alohanet is relatively reliable isn't it? 20:01:37 also it is part of the internet. 20:01:49 I'm not sure. 20:01:56 that much I know about it. 20:02:08 Amateur radio sites are also part of the commercial internet (well, some of them are). There are numerous chat servers and such that you can reach via TCP/IP as well as AX.25. 20:02:08 ie that it is internet-connected. 20:02:28 But the network I'd like to create would be wholesale discongruent with the Internet. 20:02:45 Maybe a gateway here and there, but overall, it'd be a self-run, self-sustaining radio network. 20:03:01 danger, danger will robinson! discongruwho? 20:03:15 I should have used disjoint instead -- no overlap. 20:03:32 In other words, the amateur radio network would be its own internetwork, separate from the Internet that we currently know. 20:03:37 And instead of TCP/IP, it'd use ATM. 20:03:48 hmmm. 20:03:52 (ATM makes *MUCH* better use of available bandwidth than TCP/IP does, especially on 1200bps and 9600bps links) 20:05:27 is it difficult? 20:05:29 expensive? 20:07:05 For ham radio, at 1200bps and 9600bps, it's not very expensive. Certainly more expensive than telelphone modems or cable modems, because the low sales volume of the hardware. 20:07:27 However, the software for it is unconventional. Easy to write, and easy to use, but because it's so totally-new, I'm not sure how people will react. 20:07:41 I've always had an interesting in ham on my interest backburner. 20:09:02 Yeah. This is a project I've always wanted to work on, because it could really give packet radio sub-hobby the self-esteem boost that it really needs. 20:09:47 so what your project will do is enable computers to communicate via radio right? 20:09:48 Currently, packet radio is "dead" from a services stand point. It's funny -- we HAVE the networking infrastructure and connectivity -- what we don't have are the people using it nor the services that people want. 20:09:50 :) 20:10:11 what services do people want? aol? 20:10:14 They'll communicate better, and with a more solidly defined client/server architecture than what currently exists. 20:10:19 No. 20:10:50 I'm talking about things like standardized file transfer (that's bandwidth efficient; YAPP, ham radio's standard file transfer protocol, wastes 50% to 75% of available bandwidth because it converts binary data to text first. :( ) 20:11:26 ... first. :( ), e-mail (which BBSes provide just fine, actually), hypertext documents, digital voice and images (where bandwidth permits it, like on the microwave bands), etc. 20:12:49 The problem with BBSes is that you lose the ability to use your preferred e-mail client. I would definitely look into solving that problem. 20:12:50