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10:13:05 <kc5tja> hmmm ...
10:13:13 * kc5tja ponders pizza for breakfast...
10:13:30 <Robert> :)
10:13:40 <Robert> Not a bad idea.
10:14:42 <mur> uh
10:18:16 <kc5tja> Well, the place is closed unfortunately.  They open at 11.  >:(
10:18:30 <kc5tja> Damn it, I'm gonna hafta ride my bike, and I was hoping to be lazier than this.
10:19:09 <Robert> Don't eat, then.
10:19:26 * mur havn't for a whole day 
10:19:33 <mur> only couple of bread
10:20:01 <kc5tja> If I don't eat, I get light-headed.
10:20:10 <mur> ?
10:20:48 <mur>  light-headed?
10:20:57 <kc5tja> Yes
10:21:02 <mur> what does that mean?
10:21:12 <kc5tja> It means just what I said :)
10:21:21 <kc5tja> Have you ever gotten dizzy or "light-headed"?
10:22:17 <mur> ah you feel dizzy then?
10:22:36 <kc5tja> It's a blood sugar imbalance.
10:22:59 <mur> okay
10:24:58 <mur> bbl mayeb
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10:38:17 * Herkamire ponders what to have for lunch
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10:46:45 <kc5tja> Heh
10:46:58 * kc5tja just got paid $48.10 by the IRS.  Yay.
10:47:26 <Herkamire> heh. Last year I thought I was going to get $100 and I got $68
10:47:35 <Herkamire> oops, I thought I was going to get $1000
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11:08:03 <monk23>  hi !
11:08:05 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I already got $1280 from them earlier this year.
11:08:10 <kc5tja> Apparently, they thought I needed more.  :)
11:08:15 <kc5tja> re monk23
11:11:53 <deluxe> Herkamire: where is sifbot ;-)
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11:20:48 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
11:21:12 <Herkamire> deluxe: I have to teach sifbot about being disconnected.
11:21:35 <deluxe> LOL
11:23:56 <ianni> Herkamire, did you write the tcp/ip code?
11:24:11 <Herkamire> ianni: no, I used tcpclient
11:24:15 <ianni> what's that?
11:24:25 <ianni> im interested in something like that
11:24:48 <Herkamire> ianni: it takes host, port, program [arg] in the commandline.
11:24:52 <ianni> oh.. system 
11:24:55 <ianni> i see
11:25:04 <ianni> and you write to the file descriptor or something?
11:25:24 <ianni> makes sense
11:25:30 <Herkamire> it connects, and runs your program [args] with fd 6 reading from the network and fd 7 writing to it.
11:25:40 <ianni> ah interesting
11:25:48 <ianni> and the OS knows how to sort out where its coming from?
11:25:58 <ianni> oh, no, you give host and port.. cool
11:26:00 <Herkamire> it leaves stdin/stdout alone so you can make interactive programs with it. tcpserver just uses stdin/stdout
11:26:08 <ianni> is that a linux thing>?
11:26:12 <Herkamire> yes
11:26:17 <Herkamire> unix
11:26:20 <ianni> cool
11:26:27 <ianni> well i didnt notiec it in darwin
11:26:39 <Herkamire> it doesn't come with unix
11:26:48 <ianni> its here on linux tho
11:27:08 <Herkamire> it's here: http://cr.yp.to/ucspi-tcp.html
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11:34:12 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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11:52:50 <monk23> byes
11:52:54 <Herkamire> LOL! try telnet irc.freenode.net
11:53:03 <Herkamire> bye monk23 
11:53:18 <monk23> byes
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12:20:56 <ianni> hwhahahha
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12:48:34 <Herkamire> oops. typed /quit instead of /part
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12:48:43 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
12:49:50 <Herkamire> ok, it should handle disconnects now. but I still can't get the #*@^# quit message to work.
13:05:44 <ianni> sifbot: words
13:05:46 <sifbot> ianni: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ...    
13:05:50 <ianni> sifbot ...
13:05:57 <ianni> sifbot: ...
13:05:59 <sifbot> ianni:   Word not found: ...  
13:06:00 <ianni> hehe
13:08:09 <Herkamire> sifbot's flood protection would bake a real WORDS useless
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13:14:46 <ianni> sifbot: *nod*
13:14:48 <sifbot> ianni:   Word not found: *nod*  
13:14:52 <ianni> er
13:14:54 <ianni> *nod* heh
13:15:13 <ianni> sifbot: " a" 
13:15:15 <sifbot> ianni:   Word not found: "  
13:15:22 <ianni> sifbot s" a"
13:15:47 <ianni> why doesnt he say anything back in msg ?
13:16:03 <ianni> only if i do .( ) ?
13:18:44 <tcn> hmm.. maybe in case there were 2 bots in here at once?
13:20:05 <kc5tja> Oh, imagine the Core Wars that could be implemented with two competing sifbots... :)
13:20:30 * kc5tja releases two new news items on his company's website.
13:23:08 <Herkamire> is s" supposed to be used at compile time or interpret time?
13:24:10 <kc5tja> S" is compile-time
13:25:28 <tcn> every forth implements strings differently though :)
13:26:03 <kc5tja> Well, S" is supposed to be compile time UNLESS you have the file wordset installed, in which case, S" is required to also be interpret-time as well (but for only ONE string; additional strings are implementation dependent)
13:26:37 <kc5tja> That is, the result of: S" foo" S" bar" TYPE TYPE would appear as "barbar" in a strictly ANSI Forth interpetter with the file wordset supported.
13:28:02 <tcn> oh yeah, i hate that
13:28:48 <kc5tja> I'm not sure what I'll do in FS/Forth, since I'm not going to be using blocks (at least, in the 16-bit version)
13:29:09 <tcn> I guess you need something like " which parses a string with S" and then copies it to the heap.
13:29:36 <kc5tja> S" in interpret-mode does exactly that.
13:29:50 <kc5tja> The problem is, PAD is always used for string storage (: PAD   HERE 256 + ; in most systems)
13:30:02 <tcn> oh yeah
13:30:05 * tcn shakes his head
13:30:23 <tcn> you see why I went back to C?
13:30:23 <kc5tja> I'm probably going to have a more intelligent PAD implementation; one which lets me have up to 8 strings before it "wraps around" again.
13:30:34 <kc5tja> No, can't say that I can.
13:30:58 <kc5tja> C would have exactly the same problem as Forth if it were running in interpret mode.
13:31:15 <kc5tja> You'd malloc() a space for a string (Forth can ALLOCATE or ALLOT), use the string, and then ... that's it.
13:31:19 <kc5tja> It'd never get free()'d.
13:31:35 <kc5tja> Forth and C are 100% identical at the binary level -- they're both equally static languages.
13:33:35 <tcn> we shall see
13:36:03 <kc5tja> In fact, I have to support a multiple-string PAD to support commands like S" from" S" to" FCOPY or something like that -- necessary for the native version to copy and manipulate files without the benefit of MS-DOS.
13:36:26 <kc5tja> But it's pretty easy to implement, I think.
13:37:28 <kc5tja> An alternative approach would be to *compile* the user's input, then execute it as if it were a colon-definition.
13:37:34 <kc5tja> Then the whole issue is moot.
13:37:46 <kc5tja> (And after the definition is run, just release that part of the dictionary)
13:38:16 <kc5tja> The disadvantage is that words like : and ; become quite different beasts than what most people are familiar with (internally at least)
13:38:50 <kc5tja> Basically, all defining words have to become immediate words as a matter of course.
13:38:53 <tcn> hmm.. kforth does that
13:39:33 <kc5tja> Hmm...I didn't know that.
13:39:40 <kc5tja> I wasn't aware of any Forth that used that technique.
13:39:56 <tcn> I always liked the macro/forth dual dictionary approach, where the macros are always immediate and forth is compiled in compile mode..
13:39:58 <kc5tja> I wonder how it's impacted it's compatibility with software written for other Forths.
13:40:34 <kc5tja> Yes, I agree.  It also simplifies dictionary management (e.g., FORGET or its equivalent is very much simpler to implement)
13:40:48 <tcn> kforth seemed like any other, except you could do loops/conditionals in interpret mode
13:40:54 <kc5tja> I prefer the use of a "global" namespace, but with support for headerless words to hide internal details of modules.
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13:41:48 <kc5tja> tcn: I use a lot of creating words in my code.  Like : S. CREATE , , DOES> 2@ SWAP TYPE ;
13:41:56 <kc5tja> How would one implement that in kforth, so that I can later write:
13:42:04 <kc5tja> S" foo bar" S. .foo
13:42:09 <kc5tja> S" Hello world" S. .world
13:42:11 <kc5tja> ?
13:42:23 <kc5tja> It would seem to me that S. would have to be immediate or a macro to work as expected.
13:42:43 <tcn> i dunno, but it works. look for yourself :)
13:42:54 <kc5tja> Where can I download it?  Is it for Linux or Windows?
13:43:04 <tcn> it's maybe 60k, for windows
13:43:24 <tcn> as always... google :)
13:44:10 <kc5tja> I did, and the version of kForth I've found is for Linux.
13:44:19 <kc5tja> It's obviously not the same version.
13:45:12 <kc5tja> brb
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13:56:30 <tcn> howdy, crc.. how's retro?
13:57:37 <crc> Pretty good
13:58:01 <tcn> hang on, i gotta finish up this email
13:58:32 <crc> Still working on a lot of low-level code, but it's shaping up quite nicely
14:01:20 <gilbertdeb> crc: what are you writing retro in ?
14:01:35 <crc> Assembly (NASM) and Forth
14:01:40 <gilbertdeb> tcn did you come up with "You, forth, the machine. simplicity?"
14:02:12 <tcn> yup
14:02:33 <gilbertdeb> _<\o_ I am not worthy.
14:02:35 <tcn> Usted. Adelante. La Machina :)
14:03:08 <tcn> that's how google mistranslates it :)
14:03:09 <gilbertdeb> its a good haiku.
14:03:21 <gilbertdeb> can I steal it or is it copyrighted?
14:03:29 <tcn> go ahead
14:03:36 <gilbertdeb> consider it stolen.
14:03:43 <gilbertdeb> with mad props of course ;)
14:03:56 <tcn> it's not like I do much forth anymore
14:04:03 <gilbertdeb> still.
14:04:19 <gilbertdeb> when you have to write a smallC compiler ... :D
14:04:24 <gilbertdeb> you might reconsider.
14:05:05 <gilbertdeb> also, 'wheres the fire'?
14:05:16 <gilbertdeb> relax, sit in the hammock and smoke a spliff man!
14:05:18 <gilbertdeb> ;)
14:09:49 <kc5tja> back
14:10:40 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Haiku has specific syllabic requirements.  The above isn't a haiku.
14:10:46 <gilbertdeb> sure it isn't.
14:10:50 <gilbertdeb> I call it that though :D
14:10:57 <kc5tja> heh
14:11:31 <gilbertdeb> which other language has such a thorough description?
14:11:38 <gilbertdeb> maybe asm.
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14:29:45 <tcn> those Tunes bastards are gonna love me now :)
14:30:09 <kc5tja> Why's that?
14:30:16 <tcn> just kidding about them being bastards :)
14:30:48 <kc5tja> You're free to think of them as you will; I'm not one of them.  :D
14:31:08 <kc5tja> TUNES: Tunes Ultimately will Never Ever See daylight.
14:31:17 <tcn> hahaha
14:31:27 <tcn> that's about what I said in that mail I just fired off
14:31:47 <kc5tja> Their ambitions are just way too high.
14:33:44 <tcn> i had a thought.. if we're all going to work together (crc, i440r, myself, etc.) we might want to share some code.. even though we're working on different things..
14:35:34 <tcn> i'm not using Forth as a basis for any more OS's, but i noticed how Isforth can coexist with Linux pretty well, and Retro drivers have a lot of assembly code.. languages like C compile to assembler.. or Forth, for that matter..
14:35:34 <Klaw> intelectual inbreeding
14:36:02 * kc5tja nods
14:36:15 <tcn> or do we just share code by retyping it as we see fit?
14:36:37 <kc5tja> This is why I can't stand it when I440r gets upset when I talk about C bindings to IsForth.
14:37:31 <kc5tja> FS/Forth for Linux will rely on a C bootstrapper -- the C program establishes the initial dictionary, and then loads in the compiled image (similar to how GForth does it).  Then it launches the dictionary image.
14:37:57 <kc5tja> New primitives can be linked in either using the C bootstrapper, or by relying on ld.so to dynamically load libraries as you need them.
14:38:03 <kc5tja> That is, I'm not shying away from C.
14:38:14 <kc5tja> I'm merely preferring Forth for my primary development language.
14:38:41 <tcn> are you using an assembler?
14:38:50 <kc5tja> Of my own creation, yes.
14:39:03 <kc5tja> I'll be porting my 16-bit assembler to the 32-bit environment after I'm done with the DOS version of FS/Forth.
14:39:40 <kc5tja> I just need to add SIB and automatic O16:/A16: prefix byte generation support.
14:40:13 <tcn> what'd you base it on? you must have had /some/ inspiration..
14:40:33 <kc5tja> I wrote the code entirely from scratch.  However its inspiration is the PygmyForth assembler.
14:41:00 <tcn> heh.. exactly what I did.  It can be done..
14:41:37 <kc5tja> My assembler word, ,i , already has sib, and the relavent prefix, words in it.  It's just that those words are basically stubs right now.
14:42:02 <tcn> although i did see some Chuck Moore example code for PDP-11 forth-asm.. it looked like it'd work better than the Pygmy assembler for the 386+
14:43:01 <kc5tja> The PDP-11 is a highly regular instruction set.  I was about to mention that I *really* wish the x86 instruction set was more regular.  I had to devote many blocks of code to certain (often used) instructions because of their wackiness.
14:43:05 <kc5tja> MOV and XCHG being one of them.
14:43:08 <kc5tja> two of them rather.
14:43:51 <tcn> are you using octal opcodes?
14:43:58 <kc5tja> No, hex.
14:44:12 <tcn> there ya go :)  it's more regular than it looks in hex.
14:44:21 <kc5tja> No, it really isn't.  :(
14:44:29 <tcn> i think it's pretty elegant, actually
14:44:31 <kc5tja> MOV is just riddled with special-case code.
14:44:55 <kc5tja> XCHG is too, because I try hard to optimize for size (e.g., XCHG with AX is always compiled using the shorter opcode form)
14:45:13 <kc5tja> Oh, and TEST -- the ALU operation that really isn't.  That instruction is laughable.
14:45:18 <tcn> right
14:45:29 <kc5tja> It supports most of the ALU operations of AND, but the binary encodings are totally different.  GAHH!!
14:45:35 <kc5tja> I was livid when I found out about that.
14:45:35 <tcn> you, me and i440r need to have a little assembler forum..
14:45:55 <kc5tja> s/ALU operations/addressing modes/
14:46:16 <kc5tja> I440r doesn't get along with me on assembler philosophy.  :)
14:46:25 <kc5tja> I doesn't like my postfix preferences.  :D
14:46:29 <kc5tja> jeez
14:46:30 <kc5tja> I can't type
14:46:30 <tcn> i call MOV, XCHG and TEST "special instructions"
14:46:33 <kc5tja> HE doesn't like... etc
14:46:46 * kc5tja nods
14:46:53 <kc5tja> I use creator words extensively in my assembler.
14:47:01 <kc5tja> There are a number of words that are doable this way.
14:47:07 <kc5tja> But the 68000 is substantially more regular.  :)
14:47:15 <kc5tja> And RISC architectures even more.
14:47:26 <tcn> i440r wants a traditional NASM-style syntax, doesn't he?
14:47:35 <kc5tja> Pretty much, yeah.
14:47:42 <gilbertdeb> RISC what what kc5tja?
14:47:57 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Read the above.  :)
14:48:05 <gilbertdeb> even more.
14:48:19 <gilbertdeb> regularity of syntax?
14:48:22 <tcn> heh.. Jack Crenshaw has a lot of peeves about the 68000
14:48:27 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Regularity of bitwise encoding.
14:48:55 * kc5tja shrugs
14:49:11 <tcn> how Motorola ADDED COMPLEXITY to make it LESS ORTHOGONAL than it already was, just to enforce "good practice"
14:49:19 <kc5tja> i've been doing 68000 programming since 1986, when I got my Amiga 500.
14:49:48 <kc5tja> I couldn't afford a C compiler back then, so I did quite extensive 68000 programming in assembler.
14:49:49 <kc5tja> I loved it.
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14:50:01 <kc5tja> I still insist that it's the best CISC ever designed by mankind.
14:50:34 <ramnull> Anyone here using Isforth?
14:50:40 <kc5tja> tcn: Source?  I'd like to read this article.
14:50:46 <tcn> ramnull: a little bit
14:50:53 <ramnull> I got a code snipper here that causes it to segfault.
14:51:10 <tcn> kc: see cliki.tunes.org/Small%20C about his compiler tutorials..
14:51:10 <ramnull> tcn: Want to take a peak at it?
14:51:24 <ramnull> tcn: see if its just me.
14:51:41 <tcn> ramnull: sure, just dcc it if it's more than a few lines
14:53:12 <ramnull> tcn: I'll message it to ya. It's really short.
14:53:38 <ramnull>                                          
14:53:38 <ramnull>   
14:53:38 <ramnull> : fget ( str -- fd | -1 ) fhcount @ handles @ = if 
14:53:38 <ramnull>                                                 abort
14:53:39 <ramnull>                                               then
14:53:41 <ramnull>                                              fname to-z  
14:53:43 <ramnull>                                            2 fname fopen dup
14:53:45 <ramnull>                                           0 < if 
14:53:48 <ramnull>                                                abort
14:53:50 <ramnull>                                            then
14:53:52 <ramnull>                                           fhcount @ 1+ swap !
14:53:56 <ramnull>                                           ;
14:53:57 <ramnull>                                         
14:54:06 <ramnull> Well. There it is. Heh.
14:54:43 <tcn> ok... brb, i need a better connection..
14:55:04 <ramnull> Meant to message it.
14:55:14 <ramnull> Hit the wrong macro.
14:55:25 <kc5tja> tcn: I checked the site, but i just don't see anything on the topic.
14:57:38 --- quit: tcn (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
14:57:57 <ramnull> It segfaults at " 2 fname fopen"
14:58:21 <ramnull> But it only segfaults in the word "fget", but I can execute it from interpreter just fine.
15:00:35 <ramnull> What's the purpose of this "Tunes" project everyone keeps mentioning?
15:02:33 <crc> The TUNES Project is a project to develop a free software computing system based on a reflective design, which system as a whole is also to be named " TUNES". (From http://tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html)
15:03:05 * kc5tja nods
15:03:09 <ramnull> I read that much. But I'm a little fuzzy on the whole "reflective design" concept.
15:03:32 <kc5tja> Reflection is the ability for a program to discover information about its surroundings at run-time.
15:03:51 <kc5tja> For example, in Forth, you can discovere whether or not a word is defined, where it is located in the dictionary, etc. without having to actually execute the word.
15:03:54 <ramnull> Like Genetic Programming?
15:04:04 <kc5tja> Genetic programming has nothing to do with reflection.
15:04:37 <ramnull> Basically making a piece of software "aware" of it's environment.
15:04:48 <kc5tja> Yes.  Basically, that is the case.
15:05:20 <kc5tja> I wish I still had my sources; but I used reflection in Forth to implement my VIBE block text editor.
15:05:52 <kc5tja> All the keystrokes are mapped to Forth words via reflection.  
15:05:57 <ramnull> Hmmm...I could see where that would be useful.  Give a program the ability to anticipate an error before it becomes FUBARed.
15:07:04 <kc5tja> True, but it's more powerful than that.
15:07:19 <ramnull> No doubt. I'm gonna read up on it.
15:07:37 <kc5tja> BTW: another word for reflection is introspection.
15:07:56 <kc5tja> You might find papers that prefers one term over another, but they're both basically the same concept.
15:13:30 --- quit: Robert ("I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.")
15:14:27 <ramnull> Anyone looked at the GNU Lightning project/
15:14:28 <ramnull> ?
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15:16:00 <ramnull> I dont like the way Tunes seems to join a computer and language at the hip. After all the only real programming language is Machine Code.
15:16:32 <tcn> ramnull: i dunno what to make of that code.. try testing it in smaller chunks..
15:16:47 <tcn> well put, about tunes ;)
15:16:56 <ramnull> tcn: Did it segfault on you?
15:18:06 <ramnull> i.e. Until chip makers start making hardwired C, Java, ect... chips, that's all there is Machine Code.
15:19:51 <tcn> ramnull: it says, what's fhcount ?
15:19:57 <ramnull> tcn: fhcount and handlers are " create fhcount 1 , " and " create handles 64 , "  respectively.
15:20:32 <ramnull> tcn: fname is " create fname ," foofile" "
15:21:08 <tcn> to-z ?
15:21:25 <ramnull> tcn: From a counted to an asciiz string.
15:22:14 <ramnull> tcn: If fhcount and handles are equal, then abort.
15:22:35 <Klaw> did K follow J?
15:22:41 <ramnull> Suppose I should do greater than or equal to.
15:23:07 <tcn> klaw: sort of
15:23:22 <ramnull> Klaw: They were more or less developed simultaneously. Although K is quite a bit more advanced at this point.
15:23:52 <tcn> I wonder if J++ is J or Java?
15:24:22 <tcn> well, i need a definition for to-z
15:24:48 <ramnull> tcn: : to-z c@ 1+ over + 0 swap c! ;
15:25:03 <ramnull> It doesnt preserve the address.
15:25:20 <ramnull> But then again it doesnt need to at this point.
15:26:02 <Klaw> are the apl people against K?
15:26:32 <ramnull> Klaw: Dont know.
15:26:35 <tcn> you come to the wrong place :)
15:26:41 <Klaw> i'm just reading from tunes
15:26:56 <ianni> J++ iswas Java...
15:26:59 <ianni> s/is//
15:27:08 <tcn> go to #tunes :)
15:27:16 <ianni> whats J
15:27:24 <tcn> you'll probably get /kicked but, you could try :)
15:28:30 --- join: I440r (~nospam@1Cust175.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
15:28:31 <tcn> ramnull - what's fget do? hwo should i rn it?
15:28:48 <ramnull> Kx systems says they might Open Source the K language if there is enough interest from the community.
15:28:51 <tcn> hey i440
15:28:58 <I440r> hi :)
15:29:30 <ramnull> tcn: It's a higher level abstraction over fopen, for a little utility that I'm working on.
15:30:19 <ramnull> tcn: It sets a limit on the maximum number of files allowed open for the app, and then gets the file descriptor for further processing.
15:30:23 <tcn> kc, still here? have you done C linkage from your forth? how about shared libs?
15:30:47 <ramnull> What's up I440r?
15:31:44 <Klaw> what does #tunes do?
15:31:53 <ramnull> Hey I440r, I've written a little word that segfaults IsForth. I've triple and quadruple checked it. Wanna see it?
15:32:14 <ramnull> I440r: I tried emailing it to you.
15:33:15 <kc5tja> tcn: Yeah, I'm still here.  Napping though.  I'm real tired.
15:33:31 <kc5tja> tcn: C linking, no I've not yet done it.  But I've done it in other languages (Pygmy).  It's not hard.
15:33:41 <ramnull> I still cant get over that embedded GUI in the K interpreter.
15:34:18 <ramnull> The whole thing is 130kb.
15:34:47 <kc5tja> GUI's aren't hard to write.
15:34:50 <Herkamire> Klaw: see www.tunes.org
15:34:58 <kc5tja> They're hard to GET right, but they're not hard to write.  :)
15:35:17 <kc5tja> GEOS/64 consumed only 16KB of the Commodore 64's 64KB.
15:35:52 <ramnull> Yeah, true.
15:35:58 <kc5tja> AmigaOS is another example; the intuition.library is exceedingly tiny for the features it offers.
15:36:27 <ramnull> Could just be that I'm used to big projects.
15:36:46 <kc5tja> Now, granted, a small GUI isn't going to necessarily look as flashy as a big GUI.  But it is just as useful.
15:36:56 <kc5tja> I think, anyway.  I love small GUIs over big ones.
15:37:07 <kc5tja> That's why my THE will interface directly to X11, and not to GTK or Qt.
15:37:36 <ramnull> kc5tja: Have you seen the Evas project over at enlightenment.org?
15:37:43 <kc5tja> No.
15:37:48 <tcn> hey, what's a good *nix IRC client, console mode..?
15:37:52 <kc5tja> But I absolutely abhore Enlightenment.  :)
15:38:14 <kc5tja> tcn: I'm familiar only with BitchX, but I've heard some really good things about irssi.
15:38:17 <ramnull> kc5tja: It's a small library, with full on OpenGL acceleration.
15:38:26 <kc5tja> ramnull: Precisely.  I don't do OpenGL.
15:38:37 <kc5tja> OpenGL has no place on the desktop, especially in a window manager.
15:39:20 <ramnull> kc5tja: Depends, I'm working out plans for a translucent window "show tags" feature for text editors/word processors. GL can be useful.
15:39:24 <kc5tja> I can see OpenGL inside games, or 3-D rendering tools like CAD programs or some such, but otherwise, I think it's just a big fat waste of CPU power.
15:39:28 <Klaw> Herkamire: I've seen tunes..
15:40:01 <Klaw> Herkamire: it's basically a documentation / debate project
15:40:03 <ramnull> The idea is to offload the processing to the GPU.
15:40:20 * kc5tja nods
15:40:53 <ramnull> Now, I can see someone using GNU Lightning in a similiar context as the Tunes project.
15:41:46 <ramnull> Not too different from a Forth machine.
15:41:55 <kc5tja> What's GNU Lightning?
15:42:35 <ramnull> Sort of like a stripped down Java. Only conceptually much more efficient.
15:42:52 <ramnull> It's got a ways to go yet.
15:43:07 <kc5tja> hmm
15:43:59 <ramnull> Sort of like a Knuth MMIX emulator with turbo pumps and an afterburner. At least that's what the goal is.
15:44:47 * kc5tja would like to see more research done in the field of code morphing technology.
15:44:56 <ramnull> http://lambda.weblogs.com/discuss/msgReader$2109
15:44:57 <kc5tja> Especially on-the-fly code translation.
15:45:41 <kc5tja> Imagine creating an F21 "emulation" environment on the PC that ran every bit as fast as the native x86.  I'd love to see that happen.
15:46:09 <kc5tja> 404 Not Found
15:46:36 <kc5tja> Oops.  I think I know why.
15:47:00 <ramnull> http://www.gnu.org/software/lightning/
15:48:15 <ramnull> I'd like to get my hands on an Ignite evaluation kit. Still thinking about Ignite coprocessor PCI boards.
15:49:11 * kc5tja would still like to build himself his own Steamer-type processor, in discrete component TTL.
15:49:22 <Herkamire> Klaw: I get the impression that there is some coding going on, but tunes is still very much in the planning and discusion stages.
15:49:23 * kc5tja loves discrete component TTL processors.  They're much fun to build and get working.
15:49:51 <tcn> it's been there for 15 years
15:49:53 <Herkamire> I think the tunes site is a great resource for learning
15:50:14 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Tunes has been in the planning stages for over a decade now.
15:50:15 <Herkamire> tcn: the tunes site has been there for 15 years?
15:50:19 <ramnull> kc5tja: You get that website to come up/
15:50:30 <tcn> maybe 10
15:50:34 <kc5tja> Herkamire: However, I agree -- them not getting anywhere at all has produced one of the most valuable online resources for OS and processor technology *anywhere* on the web.
15:50:35 <Herkamire> wow
15:50:48 <Herkamire> hehe :)
15:50:50 <kc5tja> ramnull: Yes, the $2 got interpretted by my shell instead of being passed verbatim.'
15:51:22 <kc5tja> Herkamire: I quite often refer to Tunes documentation for memory management/garbage collection techniques.
15:51:27 <ramnull> Heh. They outta start putting escape sequences in thier URLs eh? ;>
15:51:35 <Herkamire> so I wasn't overestimating at all when I said that I should come back in 50 years and see what they (tunes) made.
15:52:00 <kc5tja> tcn: I've been in California for about 8 years now, and I know I've seen TUNES since before I moved to California.
15:52:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: cool :) I keep looking at their reviews of languages. I found out about some forths and OS's.
15:52:30 <kc5tja> ramnull: No real need to.  It's just me not realizing what happened right away.
15:52:55 <ramnull> kc5tja: I know. I was joking.
15:53:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: What's funny is they still refer to Dolphin (sometimes incorrectly, DolphinOS), an OS I was attempting to write in the mid-90s.
15:53:26 <Herkamire> kc5tja: did you ever get it to work?
15:53:38 <kc5tja> I got the kernel to work several times, but that's as far as I got.
15:53:59 <Herkamire> cool
15:54:00 <ramnull> Personally, I'd like to see computing move in the direction of Plan9 and Inferno. Wonder if theres a Forth for Plan9.
15:54:13 <kc5tja> I do intend on completing Dolphin at some point.  But other projects are taking precedence right now.
15:54:45 <ramnull> Turn the whole Internet into one big supercomputer.
15:54:59 <kc5tja> I don't think it'll happen, because Plan/9 is just another Unix.  Oh, sure, it's a lot better architecturally, but there's no *compelling* reason to switch.  Linux and BSD are "good enough" for 99% of the software that's out there.
15:55:33 <ramnull> True.
15:55:54 <ramnull> I440r: Did my mail make it to your inbox?
15:56:35 <kc5tja> I really would like to see a resurrgeance(sp?) in home-built computers though.
15:56:46 <kc5tja> PCs are nice for what they are, but they really do take all the fun out of computing.
15:57:14 <tcn> hell yeah
15:57:42 <Herkamire> I want a simple handheld computer
15:58:10 <ramnull> kc5tja: Look at the Mod scene. I bet if these small chip makers started selling kits at CompUSA, you might see a new cottage industry spring up.
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16:00:38 <I440r> hi karingo :)
16:02:23 <kc5tja> Not enough to be lucrative though.
16:02:30 <Herkamire> that's the tricky thing of trying to get people to use your new OS: it must either do something that people can't do now, or it must do everything that people do now but better.
16:02:44 <kc5tja> Very, *VERY* few people know anything about electrical engineering, even supposed EE graduates.  :(
16:02:51 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
16:02:57 <ramnull> If they make one available, I'm gonna get an eval kit from ptsc.
16:03:03 <kc5tja> HHHhhhhmmmm.....  Now THIS is very, very appealing...
16:03:15 <kc5tja> Amiga 4000 with Video Toaster for $113.50 on eBay....
16:04:03 <ramnull> kc5tja: I got a stack of EE books, and I'm not even in college.
16:04:38 <ramnull> Guess I'm an anomally.
16:05:17 <ramnull> Dont ask me to design a chip just yet.
16:06:02 <bwb> no fun in computing :(
16:06:26 <tcn> kc: oops, i never answered your question about Crenshaw.. http://cliki.tunes.org/parsing
16:06:47 <kc5tja> tcn: Thanks.  I'll check it out later.  Gotta prepare for aikido.
16:08:11 <ramnull> Hmmm...I'm curious, if you guys could get a fast 32bit stack coprocessor card for your workstation, would it be worth your while?
16:08:43 <tcn> doubt it
16:09:04 <tcn> unless of course you're a stubborn forther :)
16:09:57 <ramnull> One with IO ports for everything? IDE Raid, USB, Firewre, and Ethernet all in one card?
16:10:00 <tcn> if you know what you're doing you could make a high-speed TTL stack processor that plugs into a PCI slot..
16:11:19 <tcn> the simple thing is a serial link to your PC :)
16:11:41 <ramnull> Wonder if I can configure these things for SMP.
16:12:51 <ramnull> I started off working for my uncle, in the toilet of the computer industry. Refrigerators, Microwaves, Dishwashers. So I got enough knowledge to build something like this, I hope. Just curious if it's practical.
16:13:08 <tcn> cool
16:13:35 <kc5tja> I don't think it's very practical.
16:13:50 <kc5tja> It won't be speed competitive with the main processor at all.
16:14:27 <tcn> it's be nice just to have a little "all purpose interfacing box" that plugs into your serial port.. just some little microcontroller(s) with a shitload of ports :)
16:14:43 <kc5tja> Yeah, but throughput becomes an issue.
16:14:48 <tcn> i'd run forth on a thing like that
16:14:50 <kc5tja> Unless you can upload and download software to the box.
16:15:00 <ramnull> A universal business adapter.
16:15:09 <ramnull> Heh.
16:15:13 <tcn> i'm not talking video or anything.. just geek things :)
16:15:13 <kc5tja> Oh well.  Time to go.  In the shower...
16:15:20 <tcn> see ya
16:15:35 <ramnull> Ltr kc
16:16:04 <bwb> ramnull: that commercial?
16:16:13 <bwb> later kc
16:16:15 * ramnull nods
16:16:22 <bwb> heh
16:16:30 <tcn> actually.. a friend of mine has all the lamps and shit in his room wired up to some contraption..
16:17:11 <tcn> i think you hit the button a different number of times to control each device
16:17:23 <ramnull> I'll be back shortly. Gotta figure out why this thing keeps segfaulting.
16:17:36 <tcn> got the latest isforth? 1.13b?
16:17:44 * ramnull nods
16:18:29 <ramnull> Thinking I might just rewrite the thing from scratch.
16:18:42 <ramnull> Should only take a few seconds. Heh.
16:19:06 <Klaw> the test in gray looks just like pl/pgsql
16:19:31 <Klaw> all these compsci history lessons 
16:20:34 <tcn> huh, where?
16:20:34 <ramnull> bbl
16:20:38 --- quit: ramnull ("This isn't Happy Hour!")
16:21:00 <Klaw> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/projects/forth.html
16:21:05 <Klaw> gray, a parser generator in forth..
16:21:12 <Klaw> so now i know that pl/pgsql is based on oberon
16:21:34 <Klaw> and that oberon must be a bitch to work with
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16:25:26 <mur> back, hello 
16:25:43 <Robert> Hey mur :)
16:26:23 <mur> Robert awake too:)
16:26:42 <mur> any mac users / old users awake?
16:29:30 <ianni> i use a mac
16:30:49 <mur> i came up with one question
16:31:12 <mur> is it possible to put net cable to pc (linux or windows) and then another end of the eth cable to mac and easily transfer files?
16:32:32 <ianni> what mac os?
16:32:38 <mur> i dont know
16:32:44 <mur> just abstract question
16:32:49 <mur> is it tecnically possible
16:32:59 <ianni> sure
16:33:01 <mur> probably which woudl be in question qoudl be osx
16:33:04 <ianni> one could run ftp
16:33:10 <ianni> the other ftpd
16:33:22 <ianni> there are appletalks for windows too
16:33:28 <mur> ftp's are clumpsy
16:33:30 <ianni> mac os x has windows file sharing
16:33:37 <mur> NFS?
16:33:40 <ianni> via samba
16:33:54 <ianni> you mount the drive on windows...
16:34:02 <mur> woudl Nfs be supported to share in osxc?
16:34:04 <ianni> \\hostname\username 
16:34:07 <ianni> sure
16:34:12 <ianni> i cant see why not
16:34:14 <mur> with ease?
16:35:24 <ianni> the manpage ror nfsd is here on my mac os x
16:35:33 <ianni> so i guess so..
16:35:38 <ianni> ror=for
16:37:36 <mur> sounds like hacking operation :P
16:38:51 <ianni> *shrug*
16:38:59 <ianni> why wouldn't it be easy?
16:40:14 <mur> computer hardware doesnt like me
16:40:18 <mur> neither source codes
16:40:23 <mur> unless they are my source code
16:40:56 * mur suspects of some hardware troll having installed on him
16:41:14 <mur> once i tried to install modem. i never coudl make it work. :P
16:41:47 <mur> it took month and 100 so tries to make it look like there was connection (so that found by software) then i realise that the drivers are not working either
16:42:08 <mur> it was perfectly connected and still it was not connected
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16:44:17 <mur> ianni,  do you know what is the easiest way to share files?
16:44:26 <mur> perhaps some file share like in windows?
16:44:35 <kc5tja> Klaw: ??  What do you mean?
16:44:43 <mur> what protocols do those shares support, if oyu know ..
16:44:46 <ianni> i use osx file sharing and mount the osx drive on windows, and drag the files over
16:44:46 <kc5tja> Klaw: In what way would Oberon be "a bitch" to work with?
16:44:50 <ianni> thats easy
16:45:13 <ianni> ive been meaning to set up the reverse, but its not automated like this 
16:45:30 <ianni> i just click a button on the mac that says "start" and it works with windows automatically
16:45:45 <ianni> runs a samba share
16:46:03 * mur thinks that he woudl have troubles ahead. linux and win95 installed on this 6 years old dinosaur
16:47:30 --- nick: tcn -> tcn_
16:47:37 * kc5tja hates it when people make unfounded or uninformed opinions, and then gets a prejudice against something.
16:48:19 <mur> do you mean me now? can you bemore specific?
16:48:44 * mur does have experience with compability issues and different architectures :P
16:49:22 * kc5tja is curious to know how Klaw arrived at the conclusion that pl/pgsql is based on Oberon.  The two languages don't even look the same.
16:50:05 * kc5tja sighs
16:50:11 <kc5tja> More lies being spread.
16:50:30 <kc5tja> Is it any wonder why C and Windows is ubiquitous these days?
16:51:09 <mur> ubiquitous is word i need to check 
16:53:15 <mur> hmm .. present everywhere
16:53:34 <mur> kc5tja,  what do you mean?
16:54:00 <kc5tja> What I mean is that Windows and C were promulgated throughout the industry based on lies.
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16:54:26 <kc5tja> C was advertised as being a "high level" (which it isn't) "portable" (which it isn't) "OS-independent" (OK, I'll grant this, sort of) language.
16:54:42 <kc5tja> I don't need to explain the history of how Windows became so popular.
16:54:52 <Speuler> 'morning
16:54:53 <I440r> its all marketing bs
16:54:55 <I440r> :)
16:55:00 <kc5tja> It's all lies.
16:55:32 <tcn_> i noticed something really annoying about Windows today.. the fonts!
16:55:33 <I440r> ya
16:55:36 <kc5tja> And the kind of logic that Klaw used to arrive at the conclusion that Oberon is a POS is precisely the type of thing that prevents PERFECTLY good software from becoming more popular in the marketplace.
16:55:38 <mur> marketing is accepted propangada :P
16:56:06 <kc5tja> I must question whether Klaw prefers Perl or Python...  Based on his above assessment, I'm willing to bet Tcl.  :(
16:56:31 <mur> often. not always. many parties deny it's acceptance for various reasons (vary from situationists to religious people)
16:56:59 <mur> kc5tja, cheer up kc5tja, the world is wonderful place!
16:57:00 <mur> :)
16:57:42 <kc5tja> Rejection based on solid technical facts is one thing.
16:58:01 <kc5tja> Rejection based on the fact that another language resembles it, is inspired by it, or whatever, is NOT a valid course of action.
16:58:18 <mur> to think is to question values. 
16:58:45 <kc5tja> That's like saying because C++ is based on C, and we know C++ to be a resource whore, therefore C is a resource whore.  
16:59:38 <kc5tja> mur: There is no thinking in blind dismissal of a language because another language, though poorly constructed, is based on it.
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17:01:20 * kc5tja is seriously debating whether or not I should go for this Amiga 4000...
17:02:00 <mur> amigas are nice
17:02:09 * mur has a500 in wardrobe :)
17:02:38 * kc5tja nods
17:02:45 <kc5tja> I still have my A500, but it's in storage right now.
17:02:55 <kc5tja> Running Kickstart 2.04 ROMs at that.  :D
17:03:46 * mur wonders if it is only matter of time until there will be open amiga's being done
17:04:11 <mur> based on oss and some available components to make it as amigaish as possible
17:04:37 <kc5tja> There are commercial Amiga emulators for the PC that work astonishingly well, from what I understand.
17:04:58 <kc5tja> But they're based on open-source emulators like UAE and all
17:05:20 --- quit: tcn ()
17:05:24 <mur> i had entire os in mind, not just emulated
17:07:21 <kc5tja> That's what my Dolphin operating system was intended (and still intended) to be like.
17:08:03 <kc5tja> But, modern versions of Dolphin are likely to be implemented in Oberon or Forth today; I'm not going to be using C for the implementation language anymore.  Of course, this doesn't prevent one from using C to write applications with.  But Oberon is nice because of its garbage collection features.
17:08:19 <Klaw> is there a url with a nice example of threading?
17:08:22 <kc5tja> (and type safety -- a very critical factor multitasking in a single address space environment)
17:08:45 <kc5tja> Klaw: As in direct threaded, indirect threaded, etc.?
17:09:01 <kc5tja> Klaw: I actually wrote something up on a Forth wiki one time on that.  Let me get a URL...
17:09:17 <Klaw> as for oberon.. well i looked at grey, and it's input script looked a lot like pl/pgsql
17:09:24 <Klaw> gray.. and it said it was oberon
17:09:27 <Klaw> so i assumed it was
17:09:27 <bwb> moving forth explains different theading types
17:10:10 <kc5tja> http://www.forth-ev.de/wiki/html/Forth/ThreadedCode.htm
17:10:35 <kc5tja> Where did you see this?
17:10:58 <Klaw> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gray4.zip
17:11:09 <kc5tja> I looked at some samples of pl/pgsql, and while it does have the same block structure as Oberon, I certainly wouldn't judge Oberon on the basis of an SQL scripting language.
17:11:16 <Klaw> test.mini
17:12:13 <kc5tja> That's proper Oberon
17:12:20 <kc5tja> Actually, no, it's not.
17:12:29 <kc5tja> That's essentially Pascal.
17:12:58 <kc5tja> Also, that example is designed to be a test; it looks like it's there to purely exercise the expression parser.
17:13:05 <kc5tja> Real software coded in Oberon does not look like that.
17:15:23 * kc5tja will have to study this code in greater detail though ... I've always wanted to write my own Oberon compiler.  Although my existing efforts have themselves been in Oberon.
17:15:43 * kc5tja has a lexer, and the very, very beginnings of a hand-written LL-parser.
17:15:56 <Klaw> hah
17:16:28 <kc5tja> Well, I'm off to the dojo.  I'll probably be back around in another four to five hours.
17:16:38 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
17:18:04 <Klaw> http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/xhtml.k
17:18:07 <Klaw> that looks beautiful
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17:20:27 <mur> Klaw, certainly looks interstting, what is it?
17:20:40 <mur> xhtml parser for forth or forth parser in xhtml?
17:21:03 <mur> xhtml parser
17:21:08 <mur> in forth
17:21:31 <mur> doesn't look forth at all
17:21:40 * mur is confused. well it's soon 4 am anyho
17:21:41 <mur> w
17:22:39 <mur> it looks beautiful what ever it is
17:23:38 <tcn_> it's K
17:25:15 <Klaw> yeah, xhtml parser in K
17:30:04 <ianni> scary
17:30:23 <mur> :)
17:31:01 <mur> k        vector programming language    it says in readme.txt
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17:45:07 --- quit: tcn_ ("ircII EPIC4pre2   cLIeNUX. Can you say that?")
17:47:58 <mur> false spelling :P
17:51:28 --- quit: mur ("operation good night started at 0400")
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20:02:11 <njd> how do i remove a word ?
20:06:02 <gilbertdeb> forget ?
20:13:10 <njd> yeah thats it
20:13:11 <njd> thans
20:13:12 <njd> thans
20:13:13 <njd> thanks
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22:13:43 <ramnull> Yabba dabba doo.
22:14:17 <ramnull> It's like the weekend and stuff.
22:19:31 <fridge> a 6 day weekend for me
22:20:25 <ramnull> Youre on vacation too eh?
22:26:05 <fridge> nah, just lucky draw of my roster for work and public holidays
22:36:01 <ramnull> Finally solved my file handling problems.
22:50:16 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
22:52:16 * kc5tja is really, really stiff right now.  I can barely move.  :)
22:52:47 <ramnull> You do Aikido?
22:53:11 <kc5tja> Yes, I do.
22:53:49 <ramnull> I had a chance to observe some Aikido teachers. Very efficient.
22:54:01 <kc5tja> Yes.  :)
22:54:04 <kc5tja> Very efficient.
22:54:32 <kc5tja> We had a relatively small class earlier today (we hold two classes per day), so we basically got "private lessons".
22:54:44 <kc5tja> Learned a lot of stuff, despite only doing two techniques.
22:55:14 <ramnull> I didnt care for the Ukeme, the the grappling part has some very nice techniques.
22:55:35 <kc5tja> Ukemi is a mandatory part of the art.  If you don't learn that, you'll break a bone or two.
22:55:48 <kc5tja> Aikido isn't kind to those who don't know the ukemi.  :)
22:55:58 <fridge> by the sounds of it
22:56:02 <ramnull> I know. Ukeme is good, Aikido ukeme could progress a bit more.
22:56:08 <fridge> Aikido isn't kind to those that do either
22:56:32 <kc5tja> fridge: Oh, I don't know about that.  I've yet to get seriously hurt by an aikido technique.
22:56:43 <kc5tja> ramnull: Progress?  Progress in what way?
22:56:56 <fridge> whats ukeme?
22:57:00 <kc5tja> You have your rolls, your breakfalls, and your slap/sidefalls.
22:57:06 <kc5tja> Not very many other ways you can land on the ground.
22:57:14 <ramnull> kc5tja: Stop "landing" and instead finish the move.
22:57:18 <kc5tja> Proper spelling is ukemi (ooh-chem-ee).
22:57:25 <kc5tja> ramnull: Uhh, no.
22:57:43 <kc5tja> ramnull: You, the uke, is being thrown -- you're are not throwing.
22:57:45 <ramnull> Roll over the left shoulder, right shoulder, like a gymnast.
22:57:57 <ramnull> When they fall off the balance beam.
22:58:15 <kc5tja> I think you sorely misunderstand the relationship between uke and nage.
22:58:30 <ramnull> No. I've been thrown plenty of times.
22:58:48 <kc5tja> And when you are thrown, that's the completion of the technique.
22:58:50 <ramnull> I just have a different concept of it.
22:59:01 <fridge> I only practice falling while incredibly drunk
22:59:10 * bwb remembers throwing adults in aikido.. was only in it for about 2 years :/
22:59:30 * ramnull has been in the Bujinkan for the last 14 years.
22:59:40 <fridge> well, I don't really practice, it just happens
22:59:41 * kc5tja has been training for about three years so far.
22:59:59 <bwb> actually I think it was more like a year and a half
23:01:10 <bwb> I was only about 9.. actually, you know.. I should start again
23:01:32 <kc5tja> ramnull: I just did a Google search for bujinkan, and I got the Bujinkan Dojo.  Is this what you're referring to?  If so, this is not an aikido dojo.
23:01:39 <ramnull> In practice, "landing" is fine. But one should really learn to finish the movement and return to thier feet as soon as possible.
23:01:48 * ramnull nods
23:01:57 <bwb> I'm a lot more patient then I was then hmm
23:02:06 <kc5tja> ramnull: Dude, what the heck are you talking about?
23:02:06 <ramnull> But we train with Aikido folks all the time.
23:02:09 <kc5tja> Finish *what* movement?
23:02:24 <kc5tja> ramnull: Training WITH aikido folks and training IN aikido are world's different.
23:02:37 <kc5tja> When you are thrown, that completes the technique.
23:02:38 <ramnull> kc5tja: When your thrown, roll out of it.
23:02:46 <kc5tja> ramnull: uhhh
23:02:50 <kc5tja> ramnull: Of course, silly.
23:02:54 <kc5tja> What do YOU do?
23:03:02 <bwb> hah
23:03:12 <ramnull> What do you mean?
23:03:12 <kc5tja> I breakfall, then roll out immediately.
23:03:18 <kc5tja> I slapfall, then roll out immediately.
23:03:27 <kc5tja> Or, if permissible, I just drop right into a roll.
23:03:33 <kc5tja> Depends on the technique.
23:03:54 <ramnull> Keep my hands in towards my chest, so that when I rise, my hands are at the ready.
23:04:18 <kc5tja> When someone does ryotetori kokyunage on you at full speed with full body movement, you simply are NOT going to gracefully roll out.  You MUST do yokoukemi, or you WILL crack your skull on the ground.
23:04:41 <ramnull> But, if I was holding a knife, I would hold the knife out away from my chest. for obvious reasons.
23:04:59 <kc5tja> Good.  You do that.  Because we prefer that.
23:05:08 <ramnull> Heh.
23:05:34 <ramnull> It's no big deal. Theres a zillion different techniques and counter techniques.
23:05:36 <kc5tja> The farther away from your body you hold a weapon, the easier it is for us to take it from you, then take you down.
23:05:57 <kc5tja> Absolutely.  I'm not claiming Aikido is the end-all martial art.
23:06:21 <kc5tja> But you really do have a big misunderstanding of how aikido actually works, the fundamentals behind the techniques, etc.
23:06:52 <ramnull> kc5tja: Aikido is descended from Aikijutsu yes? For fighting in armor.
23:07:09 <kc5tja> That's one fo the martial arts its descended from, yes.
23:07:27 <kc5tja> But there is a BIG difference between the two arts.
23:07:38 <kc5tja> Aikido goes WITH body joint movement; aikijitsu goes AGAINST it.
23:07:41 <ramnull> So, the philosophy behind it is fundementally different from that of the Bujinkan.
23:07:46 <kc5tja> Yes.
23:07:59 <kc5tja> The philosophy is simple: harm noone, but end the conflict quickly.
23:08:13 <kc5tja> Aikido isn't about breaking bones.
23:08:31 <kc5tja> Don't believe everything Stephan Segal does on the bigscreen.
23:08:48 <ramnull> Bujinkan philosophy is simple. Stay alive by any means available.
23:08:51 <kc5tja> Now, Aikido CAN be used for breaking bones; you CAN put someone into a shihonage and rip their shoulder to pieces.
23:08:55 <fridge> which martial art has the philosophy of: anhillate all that stands in your way. ?
23:09:14 <kc5tja> fridge: By the sounds of it, bujinkan.  Which is unfortunate.
23:09:20 <ramnull> fridge: I think the Romans were pretty good at that.
23:09:27 <fridge> hmm
23:09:38 <kc5tja> Assuming what ramnull says is true.
23:09:39 <fridge> that technique requires a lot of infrastructure though
23:10:06 <fridge> square shields, lots of soldiers, spears, the whole shebang
23:10:13 <ramnull> kc5tja: It depends. I can survive by running away just as easily as confronting someone.
23:10:28 <kc5tja> ramnull: What do you prefer though?
23:10:44 <kc5tja> ramnull: From what you're conveying to me, it sounds like you'd rather stay and fight.
23:10:52 <ramnull> kc5tja: I'll dash in a heartbeat.
23:11:00 <kc5tja> Good.
23:11:14 <kc5tja> Because not even O'sensei could out-dodge a bullet.
23:11:28 <ramnull> Heh.
23:12:38 <ramnull> The Bujinkan has absorbed a bunch of schools. So we get a broad range of training.
23:12:53 <kc5tja> You know, I've seen plenty of martial arts that have done similar things.
23:12:59 <kc5tja> And they're all pretty valid.
23:13:07 <kc5tja> But none of them are nearly as perfect as their instructors would like them to be.
23:13:42 <kc5tja> The student generally tends to be good at a wide variety of techniques, but not good enough to compete with someone who trains in that parent martial art.
23:13:43 <ramnull> Yeah. Or the instructors arent as perfect as theyd like to become.
23:13:56 <kc5tja> I think it's good to keep a balanced set of arts.
23:14:07 <kc5tja> I prefer to study in a wide variety of "primary" arts.
23:14:18 <kc5tja> After I get to nidan in aikido, I'm planning on training in tai chi chuan.
23:14:23 <kc5tja> Just to balance things out.
23:14:26 <ramnull> Well, the Bujinkan instructors have Menkyo Kaiden in nine schools.
23:14:40 <kc5tja> That means nothing to me.
23:14:52 <kc5tja> What is a Menkyo Kaiden?
23:15:18 <ramnull> kc5tja: They've been authorized to teach by the heirs of those schools.
23:15:55 <ramnull> But they've all been doing it for like 40+ years at least.
23:17:36 <ramnull> Hah. It works!
23:17:38 <kc5tja> Ditto for Gracie Jiujitsu.  That's evolved into its own martial art.
23:17:53 * kc5tja has considered that art for some time too.
23:18:28 <ramnull> I've been looking to supplement my training with Pankration and Glima.
23:19:19 <kc5tja> I haven't heard of the latter.  I've heard of Pankration, but am not aware of what it is.
23:20:29 <ramnull> Pankration is the original Greek gladiator wrestling. It never really died out. Glima comes from the Vikings, and involves overtaking your opponent, kinda like Sumo without the fat.
23:23:48 <kc5tja> Cool.  I'm not sure I'd be interested in the latter, but the Greek wrestling sounds interesting.
23:24:00 <kc5tja> But I don't know. 
23:24:23 <ramnull> Or check out the Bujinkan sometime. If even out of curiosity.
23:24:26 <kc5tja> I'm the pacifist type anyway, so aikido and tai chi are likely to be the only two arts that I look into.
23:24:34 <kc5tja> I am reading the website.
23:24:45 <kc5tja> Not terribly informative, but I find it insulting.
23:25:30 <ramnull> bujinkan.com ?
23:26:11 <kc5tja> Yeah.
23:26:27 <ramnull> How so? It seems pretty reasonable to me.
23:27:20 <kc5tja> I find that it treats me like an outsider.
23:27:32 <kc5tja> I mean, I know I'm not a student, but c'mon, don't patronize me.
23:27:54 <kc5tja> The whole website has a "I'm holier than thou" attitude and tone to it.
23:28:19 <ramnull> The guidelines?
23:28:19 <kc5tja> That's the one thing I hate most about martial arts is the ego trips it creates.
23:28:42 <kc5tja> Aikido isn't exempt from this either.  There are two dojos near ours (relatively speaking) that have the biggest ego problems.  And their technique sucks.
23:29:26 * kc5tja has personally thrown and pinned their blackbelts (i'm only 4 kyu!) numerous times using techniques they're thoroughly unfamiliar with.  :(
23:29:33 <ramnull> We had problems in the past with people who learn at the dojo and then go out and get in bar fights, or lose control and seriously hurt thier Uke. These rules were necessary.
23:29:49 <kc5tja> Yes, the guidelines especially.
23:30:05 <kc5tja> I know the rules are necessary.
23:30:08 <kc5tja> We have them too.
23:30:22 <kc5tja> But, good grief!  The way it's written, you'd think I was some kind of escaped convict!
23:31:02 <kc5tja> I just think the rules, as they're written on that page, can turn a lot of people off, that's all.  I'm one of them.
23:31:11 <ramnull> Well, dont take it personally. The people in the Booj are some of the most lighthearted people I've ever met.
23:31:28 <ramnull> That's the intent.
23:31:38 <kc5tja> Especially the talk about the warrior's heart and whatnot.  Sorry, I don't want to become a warrior.  I just want to defend myself when the time comes, and for the other times, just relieve stress, and have fun training with others.
23:31:47 <ramnull> To turn people off. It thinks the ranks so to say.
23:31:59 <ramnull> errr...
23:32:06 <ramnull> s/thinks/thins
23:32:48 <ramnull> If they're really interested, then the rules will be acceptable to them.
23:33:43 <kc5tja> Well, I honestly have to say that I'm not interested.  As I indicated earlier, I prefer to learn from multiple "primary" arts myself, rather than from a school that borrows techniques from other arts (regardless of how good they are).  I just feel more confident of my own abilities that way.
23:34:47 <ramnull> kc5tja: We've been refining the Booj schools, in some places, for almost a thousand years.
23:35:09 <ramnull> Togakure Ryu is the oldest school.
23:35:32 <ramnull> Gyokushin Ryu is almost as old.
23:36:30 <kc5tja> How do those compare to Daito Ryu?
23:37:22 <ramnull> kc5tja: There are three ninpo schools in the Bujinkan. Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin.
23:39:43 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth
23:39:45 <ianni> wwwwwwwkarate
23:39:47 <ianni> ?
23:39:54 <ianni> s/w//g
23:40:31 <kc5tja> ianni: ?
23:40:39 <ramnull> Say what ianni?
23:40:48 <kc5tja> Yeah.  Let's beat him up... :D
23:40:54 <kc5tja> He's not making sense.  :D
23:41:04 <kc5tja> j/k!
23:41:06 <ramnull> Bujinkan.org has better info.
23:41:17 <kc5tja> I visited there, but was thoroughly lost.  
23:41:26 <ramnull> winjutsu.com
23:42:25 <gilbertdeb> #forth is more popular than #tcl !
23:42:41 <gilbertdeb> the word must be spreading.
23:43:42 <natty_> ugh tcl 
23:44:03 <gilbertdeb> whats wrong with it?
23:44:07 <gilbertdeb> it works.
23:44:17 <natty_> so does brainfuck, technically :)
23:44:27 <gilbertdeb> that too :D
23:44:37 <gilbertdeb> and K.
23:44:43 <kc5tja> The biggest problem with TCL is that Perl is more readable.
23:44:49 <gilbertdeb> I say brainf_ck has consistent code.
23:44:59 <gilbertdeb> a lot of K on a page looks @#$QAWDFADAA___DSf(*
23:45:04 <gilbertdeb> literally.
23:45:10 <natty_> heh k is scary, I looked at some sample code and I honestly couldn't figure out WTF it was doing
23:45:15 <kc5tja> I can do one better...
23:45:17 <kc5tja> Unlambda.  :)
23:45:21 <ramnull> Who needs perl when you got K ?
23:45:24 <gilbertdeb> oh no.
23:45:27 <kc5tja> sk````ksksk```kksksk````kskskkk```ksksk```
23:45:28 <kc5tja> :D
23:45:49 <gilbertdeb> well, k is serious language .
23:46:00 <natty_> http://99-bottles-of-beer.ls-la.net/
23:46:13 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Dont let the Perl guys here you say that. Heh.
23:46:14 <natty_> ^-- examples of the 99 bottles of beer program in almost every programming language on earth
23:46:18 <kc5tja> Actually, so is unlambda.  It was made to explore combinators.  It's success as a highly obfuscated language came only afterwards.
23:46:21 <gilbertdeb> :)
23:46:42 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: isn't that joy's domain as well?
23:46:46 <ramnull> Intercal really rocks.
23:46:59 <gilbertdeb> Joy. Unfathothmable.
23:47:07 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: dear god WHY?
23:47:19 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: Joy certainly is a joy to see.  It is, but was independently developed, and unlike unlambda, is intended to be used for real programming after its language is refined.
23:47:20 <ramnull> Just cause its so fucked up. Heh.
23:47:55 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: How is Joy unfathomable?  It's concatenative, it's functional, and it works.
23:48:11 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: And has some nice abilities that are grossly inconvenient to do in Forth (e.g., code quotations).
23:48:35 <ramnull> Smalltalk and K on a Forth OS. Now thats the schizznick.
23:49:03 <kc5tja> Smalltalk is implemented on a stack virtual machine...  It's not too far fetched.  :)
23:49:11 <kc5tja> Well, the original Smalltalk is.
23:49:14 <gilbertdeb> I think people who code K or J for a living oughtta be paid whatever they demand.
23:49:16 <kc5tja> Not sure about K though.
23:49:49 <gilbertdeb> I prefer nial's look.
23:49:58 <ramnull> Outta do an L4 Microkernel in Forth, and make a K/Smalltalk library for it. Heh.
23:50:01 <gilbertdeb> it pretends to be a little readable.
23:50:16 <gilbertdeb> L4?
23:50:33 <kc5tja> Well, my Forth-based OS efforts will likely employ exokernel techniques, since Forth is not too far off from an exokernel in both philosophy and implementation.
23:50:42 <kc5tja> BAHH!  Heathens!  APL!!  :D
23:50:44 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: It's the next generation after the Mach microkernel.
23:50:59 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: About a zillion times better.
23:51:05 * kc5tja though L4 was wholly independent, designed specifically to be a Mach-killer.
23:51:12 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: is it faster?
23:51:19 <kc5tja> L4 was a refinement of L3 though, that much I do know.
23:51:24 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: ANYTHING is faster than Mach.
23:51:27 <kc5tja> WINDOWS is faster than Mach.
23:51:37 <kc5tja> (I'm not kidding!)
23:51:46 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Didn't you fucking here me!!? I said its a zillion times better. ;->
23:51:57 <kc5tja> Mach's message passing performance is so abysmal that Mach single-handedly destroyed any future research in microkernel technology.
23:52:09 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: it could be a zillion times better in many aspects.
23:52:12 <gilbertdeb> *shrug*
23:52:15 <kc5tja> The only survivors are L4 and QNX basically.
23:52:20 <ramnull> I suppose. Heh.
23:52:59 <ramnull> Actually there is the L4/Linux kernel, which runs perfectly well, and alot of people use it.
23:53:13 <kc5tja> Snap, crackle, pop...those are the sounds of my skeletal system coming unglued after tonight.. :D
23:53:22 <kc5tja> Interesting.  
23:53:22 <ramnull> Well, practically perfectly. Heh.
23:53:24 * kc5tja hasn't heard of that.
23:53:33 <kc5tja> Hurd should switch to L4.
23:53:40 <kc5tja> I've no idea why they're sticking with Mach.
23:53:47 <kc5tja> Mach will kill Hurd big-time.
23:53:52 <ramnull> Your preaching to the choir.
23:53:56 <gilbertdeb> if hurd ever lives long enough.
23:54:11 <kc5tja> Hey, if GNUStep can live this long, so can Hurd... :)
23:54:20 <kc5tja> And Hurd is a whole heck of a lot more interesting than GNUstep.  :)
23:54:23 * gilbertdeb notices the choir uses their existence a lot as an excuse not to be preached to.
23:54:37 <ramnull> They're taking L4/Linux and making it like Hurd.
23:54:41 <kc5tja> gilbertdeb: That's because we're too damned busy preaching ourselves.  :D
23:54:44 <ramnull> Only much better.
23:54:51 <kc5tja> ramnull: Ahh, sweet.
23:55:26 <gilbertdeb> lets see what google has to say about L4
23:55:31 <ramnull> You can run independant filesystems and device servers pretty easily, as well as multiple Linux kernels.
23:56:14 <ramnull> I'd like to see L4/Forth. 
23:56:27 <ramnull> That'd be some sweet embedded shit.
23:56:59 <gilbertdeb> hey they have it for the MIPS.
23:57:16 <gilbertdeb> Isn't it sweet that I just happen to have a MIPS machine?
23:57:23 <ramnull> You wouldn't need a shell, as you could load up a bunch of interpreters. Forth interpreter, K, Lisp, Scheme, ect...
23:57:56 <gilbertdeb> I can't compile it :(
23:58:06 <gilbertdeb> I need a licence to use the cc on my irix.
23:58:17 <ramnull> Darn! [->
23:58:53 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: You need a license for that?
23:59:07 <kc5tja> Perhaps.  But for embedded use, I'm not convinced I'd want to run K, Lisp, and Scheme on the same box.  :D
23:59:10 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
23:59:14 <ramnull> That's mighty Dutch of them.
23:59:21 <gilbertdeb> kc5tja: they are all related.
23:59:36 <gilbertdeb> they all have the list as their fundamental data structure.
23:59:45 <gilbertdeb> 6 degrees of lisp 1.5
23:59:51 <kc5tja> That doesn't really mean anything.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.04.18