00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.16 00:05:00 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 01:04:36 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 01:06:28 What it be folks? 01:07:49 brb 01:08:00 --- quit: ramnull (Client Quit) 01:35:02 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 01:38:09 I got a question. If I do "create foo 1 , ," foostring" " will foostring still have the string count as the first byte? 01:42:35 Nevermind. 02:17:50 --- join: Klaw (chuck@ip68-4-77-247.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 02:19:25 --- part: ramnull left #forth 02:32:05 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:16:03 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-186-221.phnet.fi) joined #forth 04:33:13 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Monk has left the building") 07:10:23 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 08:24:31 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 09:00:08 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth 09:00:17 Good evening! 09:00:24 hi ASau 09:01:58 I've strarted to think about creating simple byte-code VM to boot-strap Forth "ab initio", i.e. typing in octal code. 09:02:19 you have my attention. 09:02:27 on what kind of machine? 09:02:44 say MIPS 09:03:05 I want to use 8086/8088 09:03:11 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:03:17 ah. 09:03:18 but if you want to use another, you may send me instructions/architecture 09:03:22 do you have the octal codes? 09:03:27 hey, no talking in here ;) 09:03:48 just to make it "more portable" 09:03:50 don't you know this is an idle-only channel ;) 09:04:13 Not when the chat involves octal! 09:04:32 ASau: I'm sure you've seen this: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3gmn58%24rbk%40DGS.dgsys.com&output=gplain 09:04:59 No google at this moment :) 09:05:08 I'm single task :) 09:05:45 What USENET group is it? 09:06:04 x86 asm 09:06:25 And what do they want? 09:06:41 what does who want? 09:06:56 it is a very nice reformatting of all the oct codes! 09:07:07 The only USENET group I read is c.l.f. :) 09:07:31 I ream FIDOnet echo's :) 09:07:35 read... 09:07:46 what would that be? 09:08:06 www.fidonet.org for details. 09:08:30 news://fido7.su.* news://fido7.ru.* etc 09:08:59 is it the same stuff as in groups.google? 09:09:37 May be Google archive our FIDONet echoes too... I don't care. 09:09:57 no I mean is it the same news? 09:10:24 Maybe... I don't care. 09:10:44 heheh. we've established that. 09:11:31 are there things on fidonet I might never see on groups.google? 09:11:36 SU.FORTH is gated, it is called fido7.su.forth 09:11:57 I don't know, I don't care. 09:12:09 Simple answer. :) 09:12:52 simple answers are hard to come by. 09:13:28 I don't think anyone archive local echoes. 09:14:10 FIDONet routing differs from InterNet's 09:14:38 hmmm. 09:14:49 and if something does not reach any gates, then it cannot be archived by Google 09:14:49 its a completely different network? 09:14:57 Yes 09:15:01 like alohanet? 09:15:14 I don't know alohanet 09:15:56 BTW, you can distinguish FIDO-man by his address, it looks like 09:16:30 so are you on fidonet now? 09:16:33 2:5020/13.77 (it is in Moscow) or 2:50 09:17:12 I don't. I use gate at 2:5020/300 09:18:28 BTW, most part Russian "USENET" is not USENET, it is gated FIDONet. 09:19:13 For true FIDONet member, I'm user of 2:5020/300 node. 09:20:28 You see FIDONet member as "Someone" ah its a BBS isn't it? 09:21:05 I thought those things were dead. 09:21:19 You can think it is BBS. 09:22:12 what about the octal forth? 09:22:29 the thing which led to the article I posted which led to fidonet which led to ... 09:22:29 :) 09:22:30 It seems I should look how usenetizens have reformatted x86 code space... 09:23:02 I already have this table. 09:23:11 oh you do? 09:23:13 I've downloaded it from Intel :) 09:23:20 in the same format? 09:23:37 I don't think they post PDF. 09:23:47 ah yes. 09:24:18 this is a derivative of that and its better organized than what intel offered. 09:24:28 The main prblem is that this table is less usable than mine. 09:24:38 for 8086? 09:24:48 for 386 09:25:00 no, for 486 09:25:02 thats for 486. 09:25:59 whats going to be included in the bootstrap? 09:26:00 I think they've formatted it as a _table_ 8 x NN 09:26:09 plus inserts 09:26:41 in octal only and grouped logically around sets of instructions. 09:26:43 I think of some very basic forth words 09:27:09 like: + - and xor ... 09:27:18 much like machineForth 09:27:21 what do you need that for in a bootsrapper? 09:27:26 or colorForth 09:27:58 What do you mean under "bootstrapper"? 09:28:27 strapper 09:28:34 I think there should be: 09:29:04 1) byte code interpreter (no more than 256 words total); 09:29:33 2) simplistic I/O routines (emit key ... r/w); 09:29:48 3) help system. 09:30:17 all typed in realtime at a terminal in octal? 09:30:18 Just not to forget what is meant under 142Q ;) 09:31:16 I won't have word names. Everything should be typed at terminal. 09:31:31 except base VM. 09:31:56 Comment: 09:32:05 so its not going to be like the 3 instruction forth idea? 09:32:35 I want such thing for being able to revive our DWK machine, 09:32:47 DWK? 09:33:02 it has real console, but seems to get lost its OS floppies. 09:33:46 DWK has PDP-11 arch. 09:34:24 you own a pdp-11? 09:34:40 No pdp-11, DWK. 09:35:01 how large is it? 09:35:09 I don't know about differences, I know they exist. 09:36:21 Monitor+keyboard+sys.block takes half a desktop. 09:37:02 * tgunr yawns 09:37:27 hi tgunr 09:37:28 Another KR1801 based machine is no larger than 45x20x7 cm^3 09:37:33 morning 09:37:44 Good evening, tgunr! 09:37:55 evening 09:38:29 :) where are you all? I am near Gilroy Soueth of San Jose CA 09:38:42 Moscow. 09:39:00 miami 09:39:00 i almos went thru there once 09:39:01 MOCKBA. 09:40:15 mockba? 09:40:28 mos cow in cyrillic 09:40:39 asciiryliic 09:40:47 ah so 09:42:02 This is old joke of our hackers. 09:42:31 ASau: is it like Ivan and the dragon? 09:42:47 There was, e.g., a virus, that regulary halted computer in june 09:43:11 and at July 1st it sended a string to terminal: 09:43:18 BCE HA MOPE!!! 09:43:40 (That means: "You all, go to the sea!" 09:44:16 you mean 'go to the beach'? 09:44:47 That is a narrower meaning. 09:45:17 MOPE is not a beach only. ;) 09:45:59 ocean? 09:46:18 I didn't get that though. 09:46:23 does something happen on july 1st? 09:46:59 ocean, sea, any other broad water space, beach, ... 09:47:47 Summer is a special season to take a rest. 09:48:29 Winter here is much colder than in Miami ;) 09:48:41 ask mur for details :) 09:49:29 I know how cold winters are. Thats why I am in miami :D 09:49:41 :))) 09:50:07 There is a popular joke: 09:51:16 "Of all these winters I like those with grass and green leaves more than those with white snow." 09:51:39 thats a miami winter. 09:53:19 BTW, I am eager to ask a question that is in my head since I've first seen Gforth and PFE. 09:54:30 go on. I don't have the answer. 09:54:32 :D 09:54:38 Why do Forth programmers not tend to group words by their meaning 09:55:04 and not to divide wordlists of more than 2000 words into smaller ones? 09:55:43 2000 is a lot of words 09:56:04 ASau: what do you mean 'by their meaning'? 09:59:09 I mean all that deal with files in one list, those dealing with memory into another etc. 10:00:09 you mean in the documentation? 10:00:15 Sorry for my English, I have no built in real-time translator... :) 10:00:33 No, I mean in the interpreter. 10:01:08 Just type WORDS and you'll get "2xxx words total" message. 10:01:49 or maybe even 3xxx. I've not seen 0.6 Gforth 10:04:16 Hmm. Of course I understand that Gforth tends to have as much words as common lexicon has. 10:04:42 But Forth is not a natural language! 10:05:27 it is a formal language yes. 10:06:16 I think 2000 words is too much for such language as Forth is. 10:07:51 Especially since all those 2000 words do not switch context as often as it is made in natural language. 10:09:01 Wah! 10:09:08 I am to go. 10:09:13 Bye! 10:09:19 --- quit: ASau () 10:37:10 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950F1A4.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 10:59:25 i be away for a certain time 11:37:21 --- join: I440r (mark4@1Cust34.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 12:08:04 I had a forth dream last night 12:08:06 haha 12:09:09 i suck at remembering dreams, but i just remember there was some really crazy computer that the stack magically showed itself and moved around and it was like super futuristic forth or something forth-like 12:09:20 a horizontal row of cells 12:09:34 that you could move left adn right .. was weird 12:09:54 they all zoomed out as they went farthe from center of the screen, it was awesome looking 12:09:56 --- quit: flyfly ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4") 12:10:45 ianni that might be your inner self telling you what you should be designing!! 12:10:55 thats how the sweing machine was invented :) 12:12:24 sewing grr 12:12:33 damned keys keep transposing under my fingers :/ 12:30:00 I440r I was just reading a horoscope that was telling me to pay attention to dreams on this day 12:30:20 and i just happened to re-assemble that instance of visual senses from my dream state when awake today 12:31:31 i still dont feel any direction, but it was damn cool! 12:32:08 like some aliens' forth from the year 2500 :D 12:43:58 :) 12:44:00 lol 12:44:06 ill rewrite isforth :) hehe 12:44:52 hahaha 12:45:14 how cool it would be to traverse the dictionary graphically :) 12:45:44 I need to learn (do) more forth 12:45:55 :) 12:51:38 ianni: it would be even cooler if the words were arranged vertically for I440r's sake. 12:51:52 :) 12:51:56 stamp sized images neatly arranged columnwise. 12:52:31 that opens the possibility for 2 dimensional arrangement of forth words. 12:52:45 columnar meanings and recordwise meanings. 12:52:57 nah. silly thought. 12:53:00 means nothing. 12:58:08 well, I did think about the fact that vertical is probably a better representation 12:58:22 (speaking as a true novice programmer here) 12:58:39 i mean, if its a stack, top is easier to visualize than right or left being top 12:59:05 on a similar note to what was discussed in here re: horizontal/vertical human recognition recently 13:02:19 brb 13:02:25 --- quit: I440r () 13:09:18 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:14:42 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Monk has left the building") 13:31:11 ianni: you should write a program in forth. 13:31:39 that's always a learning experience 13:32:49 --- join: thin (~thin@acc-1-15.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 13:32:52 moo 13:32:55 --- part: thin left #forth 13:32:57 --- join: thin (~thin@acc-1-15.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 13:32:58 moo 13:33:00 --- part: thin left #forth 13:33:02 --- join: thin (~thin@acc-1-15.cariboo.bc.ca) joined #forth 13:33:08 moo! 13:33:15 * thin is silly 13:33:18 * thin is tired 13:33:23 * thin doesn't think there is a difference 13:33:36 :) 13:33:45 You're always like this. 13:33:45 --- join: Fractal (tqvs@dont.try.configuring.openbsd.on.stronglsd.com) joined #forth 13:33:54 Robert :) 13:33:57 hello thin 13:33:58 robert: yeah because this channel is stupid :P 13:33:58 Hey mur, Fractal 13:34:54 syd.barrett.still.enjoys.his.stronglsd.com 13:36:36 mmmmm lsd 13:36:47 tasty, sprinkle it on everything! 13:36:58 Heh. Hey guys 13:37:10 you know those myths about lsd being hallucinogenic? 13:37:15 just myths :P 13:37:23 No kidding? 13:40:37 the discoverer is confused? 13:40:58 It's just a very expensive spice. 13:41:11 haha 13:41:29 * Robert thinks of Sgt. Peppers... "It was 60 years ago today, [...]" 13:41:35 i can burn some with DVLSD player 13:41:45 20 years ago.. 13:41:46 Heh 13:41:54 I know, I know.. I thought of something else. 13:42:09 Hofmann's experiments 60 years ago. 13:43:08 Was it 60 years ago? 13:43:28 I guess that sounds about right.. Cool 13:44:36 drugs are bad 13:44:37 16th of April. Celebrated all over IRC ;) 13:44:41 alcohol i sbad 13:44:49 Yeah. Death to coffee. 13:44:54 smokes are bad for nature and innocent bystanders! 13:45:22 all the cool kids smoke 13:45:26 so it must be good 13:45:34 All the cool kids die young. 13:45:46 i must be beyond all the coolness.. 13:47:11 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966215613/qid=1050525818/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/002-6765726-6890435 13:47:14 Then #forth kids must be very un-cool :) 13:47:24 or 13:47:25 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0138430799/ref=pd_sim_books_3/002-6765726-6890435?v=glance&s=books 13:47:30 Report Corporate Fraud! Call 888.622.0117 to report corporate fraud to the FBI. 13:47:44 i'm intelligent. i dont follow others 13:47:56 i woudlt jump off the roof even everyone else did 13:48:19 i think i would come down the ladders and start taking photos of massacre 13:48:27 Would you stay in the path of a moving train if everyone else jumped out of its way? 13:48:57 perhaps they jumped off the roof to escape a fire, and then you got burnt to a crisp 13:50:09 what importance should i put on learning an assembly language? 13:51:25 ianni: i've got a book for that 13:51:34 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9E4E9FA.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 13:51:39 Assembly Langugage Step-By-Step by Jeff Duntemann 13:51:42 awesome book 13:51:49 i was able to read it without touching the computer :D 13:52:06 also talks about assembly coding in linux too 13:52:18 I had a book like that 13:52:26 TRS-80 assembly programming 13:52:34 mainly because I don't/didn't have a TRS-80 13:52:49 Actually, learning some sort of assembly is trivial... The only difficult part of it is handling memory yourself, becoming familiar with interrupt tables, etc, etc, etc. 13:52:57 fridge : Nice. z80, right? 13:53:00 yeah 13:53:16 but it is a good intro because its nice and simple CPU 13:53:35 Ya, z80 is good CPU to learn on... 13:53:43 Teaches you to really hate ASM. :) 13:54:13 thin. I'll pick that one up too then. :) 13:54:22 what arch do you recommend I learn asm on 13:54:50 i am fairly comfortable with the concept of asm i just need to start reading and learning it 13:55:02 I recommend m68k or perhaps sparc. 13:55:18 thin is in the house 13:55:23 salut 13:55:43 I bet i could find something on say mac os x or any unix to emulate m68k? 13:55:44 what processors do you have available to work on? 13:55:46 or ppc ? 13:55:58 I got a ppc. isnt that somewhat similar ? 13:56:01 ianni : Well, PPC is a nice one too. 13:56:04 Ya. 13:56:06 or just by association 13:56:13 maybe I should do ppc then. 13:56:28 my dev machines are both Mac 13:56:31 And if you really wanted to play with m68k ASM, you can get basilisk II and run MacOS 7 13:56:41 no thanks... OSX for me :) 13:57:10 I'd like to get a computer built up and running a forth on it 13:57:16 I have x86 machine almost ready 13:57:17 No, you can run a macos 7 inside an X box. It's really neat. 13:57:24 oh? 13:57:30 via what means? 13:57:33 just go into open firmware 13:57:42 thin: is the book online? 13:57:44 It emulates an m68k 13:57:44 can't get easier than that 13:57:50 fridge: hrm.. I can do asm in there? 13:57:56 i know its a forth.. 13:57:58 You just have to supply the OS (freely downloadable from apple) and a ROM 13:58:23 I can give you a IIvx, IIsi, centris 610, centris 650, or SE/30 ROM if you like. :) 13:58:31 ianni: Assembly Language step-by-step is x86 assembly, but it is awesome because it's all background, it teaches you the memory, and how the chip works, it gives you enough so that you can easily self-learn assembly after you finish the book 13:58:32 ianni: hmm, dont' think so 13:58:46 deluxe: no 13:58:51 aw 13:59:00 it's way better than AoA 13:59:24 thin: *nod* - I read the first 20% or so of AoA about 2 or 3 years ago 13:59:33 incidentaly 13:59:42 there are two copies of Duntemann's book 13:59:45 one is a paperback w/o cdrom 13:59:53 i wonder if it is the same content? 13:59:56 ianni : Do you have a TI-83+ graphing calculator? 14:00:00 i have the paperback one 14:00:01 Fractal: I used to. 14:00:02 2nd edition 14:00:05 k. 14:00:06 I ask because they're fairly common 14:00:07 Oh ya 14:00:15 thin: published when? 14:00:15 i had a um.... 81 or 83 yeah 14:00:16 They have a z80 chip in them, you know. 14:00:23 ah yeah? i did not know that 14:00:28 deluxe: 1998 or something like that 14:00:29 * ianni is a youngun 14:00:33 or 2000 ? 14:00:34 forget 14:00:41 ic thx 14:01:00 I actually wrote a forth in z80 asm for the TI-83+ 14:01:32 I can give you the source and .8kx if you like, not that it would do you much good. 14:01:35 deluxe: it's the best assembly book out there, period. i tried reading AOA and 7 other assembly books, but none of them approached the readability of Jeff Duntemann's book 14:01:55 deluxe: it starts backwards, you aren't required to know any other programming language in order to understand the book 14:02:18 deluxe: it starts off with solid background of memory, chips, etc 14:02:22 excellent read 14:02:31 thin: AoA is a bit abstract or referencial though named *art* 14:05:28 solid backgound :-) 14:05:51 how much? 14:06:13 i paid 75 bucks canadian 14:06:49 how much solid backgound? 14:06:50 worth every penny 14:07:17 it is the BEST beginning assembly book _period_ 14:07:27 you don't even need to know another programming language 14:07:39 it's not a good intermediate or advanced assembly book 14:07:42 it's not a reference 14:07:53 it's a beginner's book 14:07:59 $can = ?? $us 14:08:32 75 * .65 14:08:33 thin AoA? 14:08:43 $58? 14:08:43 you cna d/l the pdf's somewhere, too 14:08:46 art of assembly 14:08:53 no, I know what it stands for 14:09:04 ianni: AoA = art of assembly, free online asssembly book 14:09:11 it sucks in my opinion 14:09:34 i'm very sensitive about readability of books 14:09:34 it's more to chew than to sail ;-) 14:09:43 i'm sort of lazy 14:09:49 but i also won't put up with nonsense 14:09:59 if the author can't fucking present his material properly, he shouldn't fucking write 14:10:09 doh 14:10:14 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving") 14:10:15 what's the point of writing if you aren't striving to make your writing as readable as possible? 14:10:25 good books are rare 14:10:48 very rare, that's why you are soo impressed, right? 14:10:49 yeah 14:10:54 um 14:11:07 there's lots of good books out there 14:11:19 they are just a small percentage of total number of books 14:11:20 I've been reading http://savannah.nongnu.org/download/pgubook/pgubook.pkg/0.5/ProgrammingGroundUp.pdf 14:11:29 good books like "barney and 10 toes" 14:11:35 im glad you say AoA sucks then 14:11:44 which is a decent into to assembly in my opinion 14:12:22 intro 14:12:33 i ordered the Duntemann and the the Raskin book 14:12:41 wee 14:13:01 need to get some kind of affordable handheld to work on remotely 14:13:07 a newton would be cool, for instance 14:13:10 ianni: i'm impressed with your willingness to buy books instantly (i'm extremely lazy about spending money) 14:13:29 thin: I don't normally. but this truely interests me 14:14:18 well if you happen to be interested in economics i recommend microeconomics by greg mankiw :D 14:14:26 books are the one thing that I will buy off-hand, everything else requires months of investigation into whatever object it is, price/performace comparisons etc 14:14:33 i'm planning on buying the macroeconomics one by greg mankiw 14:18:52 ianni: actually, i wasn't interested in economics until i read microeconomics by greg mankiw :P 14:19:25 ianni: but if you ever think about politics, about why things are the way they are in the world, about why people are rich or poor, etc maybe you'd be interested in economics? :P 14:23:42 anybody here works w/ xml? or played a bit w/ it? 14:24:06 I have 14:24:08 not in forth. 14:24:37 * ianni is interested mostly in three things right now, and mostly.. 14:24:57 computers and programming, music, and trying to learn hebrew 14:25:12 hardly any time devoted to the latter which will require ungodly amounts of work :P 14:25:25 the last, even 14:26:35 ianni: old hebrew? 14:26:58 actaully now that i think 14:27:06 mur: you think? 14:27:26 party which name is "pensioners for the nation" is extremely weird name for political party 14:28:01 what country? 14:28:55 PENSIONERS FOR THE NATION! We want the nation to be a welfare state! Welfare states 0wn j00!! 14:29:31 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 14:29:56 howdy kc5tja :) 14:29:59 re 14:30:08 Just got back from running tons and tons and tons of errands. 14:30:13 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82271.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 14:31:12 thin: I wrote a satire for English class on the state of computer software. You interested in reading it? 14:31:19 sure :) 14:31:23 always :D 14:32:46 OK, on its way. 14:37:54 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:51:29 * ianni waits for forth inc to mail a password 14:55:45 laters 14:56:25 l8 14:59:00 --- quit: mur ("MURR!") 15:10:02 --- join: I440r (~x@1Cust63.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 15:16:01 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com") 15:16:35 i440r: so i'm going to put a forum on the #forth website 15:16:41 and i'm thinking about a wiki too 15:17:22 so that #forth people can put their information up themselves :P 15:17:24 but hmm 15:17:29 there's already 2 other wikis 15:17:41 so i really need to make the #forth wiki much more compelling 15:17:55 and there's already 1 or 2 forums out there, except nobody uses them 15:18:01 so i have to make this forum compelling 15:18:05 and i know just how to do that ;) 15:18:26 pr0n? 15:19:22 Well, one way to do that is to hold very high editorial standards. 15:19:42 For example, most Forth-related websites look like they were put up by total amateurs in the field, who have no editorial background at all. 15:20:10 Jeff Fox's site comes the closest to the ideal, where you have prolific writing and each article sometimes has a works cited list. 15:20:19 But his site is disorganized, and is hard to find relavent material. 15:20:33 (though it's a LOT better than what it USED to be, that's for sure!) 15:21:00 What we need is basically an "open source" journal of sorts, where people can contribute their articles at any time. 15:21:13 --- join: kitsune (foxchip@adsl-209-182-168-45.value.net) joined #forth 15:22:00 But the articles must adhere to an editorial standard. Example: all referenced works must be cited (this is a biggie). You can't just say things like "Forth is smaller and faster than C," you must quantify how much smaller and/or how much faster. Note that you CAN say things like, "It is my belief that Forth is smaller or faster because...." 15:22:36 Articles that rival professional-grade literature in other computing communities is what will attract more attention to the sites. 15:24:07 yeah 15:24:12 good points 15:25:26 sounds like fun too 15:25:48 I'll have to cite referenced works too in my articles & make sure my articles are good :P 15:26:05 I like writing, just need practice & the excuse to write 15:26:34 I would like to recommend the MLA format for submitting articles, but I'm not convinced it's 100% ideal for this task. But it is what I'm currently familiar with. As I continue my college education, I'll become familiar with APA format as well. 15:27:00 what alternatives are there to MLA that might be more ideal? 15:27:11 The problem is that the Forth FAQ on the web states that Forth is not smaller or faster than C, although it says that some people make this claim. And to prove the point Anton cites that his gforth, a traditional threaded Forth written in C, is by definition, going to be bigger and slower than programs written directly in C and compiled directly to native code. Of course Chuck Moore has said that if it isn't 100 times smaller than C that it i 15:27:11 I don't know. 15:27:33 maybe a modified MLA 15:27:41 what's wrong with MLA? 15:27:47 kitsune: Your text was cut off at "...smaller than C that it i" 15:28:11 Nothing's wrong with it. I actually prefer MLA over APA for citing references (MLA's reference citation rules are more "precise" than APA). 15:28:33 smaller than C that it isn't really Forth. He doesn't just pull those numbers out of a hat. 15:28:39 But there must be some reason why APA is used for the sciences while MLA is used for "everything else." I'm just not sure what that "something" is . 15:29:07 hmm 15:30:01 What Chuck Moore says must also be taken with a grain of skepticism. His style of programming, and indeed his requirements for his software, are so fundamentally different that using his style of coding for commercial projects may not do Forth proper justice. 15:30:11 I'm not 100% convinced of the 100x argument. 15:30:34 However, I will say that adopting proper Forth coding techniques, one can get software that is substantially smaller, if not faster, than software written in other languages. 15:30:43 He's a fanatic. Period. :P 15:30:46 I won't, however, go so far as to prematurely quantify this statement. 15:31:35 i think chuck moore just throws the numbers around to make people sit up and listen :P 15:31:43 As Japanese is so fundamentally different than English as to make comparisons between them difficult to impossible, so it is that comparisons between Forth and C code borders on nonsensical. 15:32:16 Those numbers also makes him sound like a fanatic. 15:32:44 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:32:53 His ideas are solid, and should be listened to. But instead of wildly bantering about numbers with no solid basis in reality, he should establish side-by-side comparisons with other language environments, and *quantify* them. 15:33:19 yeah, somebody should do that, but it's a bit of a tricky bunch of work to do 15:33:23 Because what works for ColorForth almost certainly WON'T work for a Forth under Linux. It can't! 15:33:30 I disagree. 15:33:41 There are plenty of people on this channel who are quite fluent in C, C++, Pascal, Oberon, Forth, etc. 15:34:03 It doesn't take a rocket scientist to record how long it takes to accomplish a certain goal in a certain language. 15:34:29 When someone else can say, "I can do it in a shorter amount of time in Forth," you can then measure how long it takes YOU to do it in Forth, then offer hard comparisons. 15:34:33 yeah, but too often a C coder codes like C in forth and ends up with really crappy code in forth which is gonna run just as poorly as his C program 15:34:48 Define crappy though? 15:34:54 Chuck gave up talking about it in public. Other Forth programmers said that their programs were 10x smaller than their C programs, or other people's C programs. Chuck then stated that his programs were 10x smaller than other people's Forth programs. When I worked at iTV I saw countless examples of this, although a few other people could also write programs that were 100x smaller than the C versions, but for most Forth programmers 10x is tru 15:34:58 poorly factored? 15:35:01 Like I said, what works for ColorForth may NOT work for Unix-based Forths. 15:35:04 Or for Windows-based Forths. 15:35:08 kitsune: cut off at "10x is tru" 15:35:29 you worked at iTV?!?! 15:35:33 cool 15:36:20 I was director of software at iTV and the first person hired, by Chuck's recommendation. (Jeff Fox) 15:36:21 i've talked to jeff fox about what happened with iTv but i'm still pretty much in the dark heh 15:36:40 ? 15:36:43 you are jeff fox? 15:36:51 yeah 15:36:52 doh 15:36:54 lol 15:36:56 Do the /whois... :D 15:37:01 yeah i did 15:37:07 Hehe. 15:37:12 Nick changes are never good. 15:37:16 I have links at my site to the internet archive of iTV's site, so one can read about 4OS and i21 etc. J. Fox 15:37:39 i remember seeing kitsune on a week ago or so and seeing foxchip@ but i didn't take it seriously 15:37:53 Can you finish off the previous post you made though? It cut off at "but for most Forth programmers 10x is tru" 15:38:23 See, I don't believe everything Chuck says, because he has a habit of never telling the whole story. :) 15:38:27 "10x is true but is not believable to most people. 100x sounds like nonsense to most people, but it is just that Chuck is honest." 15:39:14 * kc5tja is currently working on FS/Forth (my Forth environment), and without the interpretter, it's 4185 bytes in size (though this does include the string comparison code I wrote). 15:39:22 About 27 primitives are coded so far, the rest is high-level Forth 15:39:59 Since it's subroutine threaded, the code is about 25 to 30% larger than an equivalent direct-threaded implementation. But that's OK, because I expressly desire subroutine threading for my work. 15:40:13 Otherwise, its executable sizes are comparable to that of Pygmy Forth (itself based on cmForth). 15:40:34 Even so, there isn't much opportunity for shrinking the size of the executable down, given my precise set of requirements. 15:40:50 Chuck's comments are as compact as his code. It is a little like poetry. One often has to review them many times to get at the deeper meanings. But I have never seen him say anything that was not true. 15:42:02 --- join: tcn (~r@tc2-login35.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 15:42:11 kitsune: the ok101.zip file and OK.SEQ is chuck moore's code ? 15:42:26 Well, think what you will of Chuck's coding style, I'm still damn happy with my FS/Forth implementation; the interpretter will be completed in less than 5K. I'm a happy camper. :) 15:42:30 I'm only 1K over my goal. 15:42:54 Though, special thanks to the x86 call overhead, it's severely impacted in runtime execution speed. 15:43:41 you mean, because the x86 only has 1 stack pointer? 15:43:44 And this is without special optimizations going on. 15:43:58 funny how you ended up with 27 primitives when you aren't trying to make a machineforth 15:44:02 tcn: No, I mean because it spends 10+ cycles doing a subroutine call. 15:44:07 Well, call and return combined. 15:44:23 My primitives are not related to MachineForth, though there is some commonality between them. 15:44:25 ok101 is Moore, Ting, Fox code 15:44:44 yeah but i was wondering which section was chuck moore's actual code :P 15:46:12 I once compiled an eForth (slightly modified) with Chuck's machineForth and it produced 1K or code and 1.5k of names space. 15:46:29 ideally i'd like to get my hands on all of chuck moore's code so that i can study it thoroughly and learn the methodology 15:46:33 kc: I just timed it. My x86 takes 2 cycles for a call/ret. 15:47:06 My name and code spaces are coresident; as I do not yet support headerless words, one of the reasons my code size is so big is the embedded names. 15:47:31 But I made no effort to compact it. Soeren and I have had programs that we worked on for long periods of time and saw them grow from 200 to 400 to 500 or 600 cells. Soeren made the comment that there was still lots of room left in the 'infinite 1K' space. 15:47:36 tcn: I'm coding for an 80486 -- it doesn't have a BTB 15:47:43 thin: have you seen CMforth? Pygmy forth? 15:47:49 pygmy 15:48:02 pygmy wasn't coded by chuck moore tho 15:48:21 kitsune: I'm curious to know whether that is 1K bytes or 1K cells, and for which architecture. 15:48:28 i haven't checked to see if cmforth is available on ultratechnology.com 15:48:28 pygmy is based on CMforth, which is pretty small.. it's for a special Forth FPGA though.. 15:48:51 I'm asking because on average, one F21 cell is roughly equal to 5 bytes of x86 instruction space. That could correspond reasonably well with my results. 15:48:55 1K 20-bit cells on F21, Chuck has never made a byte addressing machine. 15:48:59 tcn: i'm not concerned about any of that. i want to see chuck moore's coding style, i want to read his code and grok his methodology 15:49:30 'Forth is word oriented. We should realize this and take advantage of it.' Chuck Moore. 15:49:48 tcn: I have Pygmy Forth (I used it to write the FS/Forth target compiler). I don't ever recall seeing special Forth FPGA anywhere in its documentation. 15:49:56 thin: and not colorforth, right? CMforth is out there (try google).. i have it somewhere too. 15:50:27 That's right, Pentium opcodes average 5 bytes or more rather than 5-bits as on F21. 15:50:34 kitsune: However, it's also true that one should not hide the underlying machine details either, as that is also an anathema to Forth philosophy. 15:50:39 tcn: cmforth is for novix 15:50:41 kc: Pygmy is sort of an 8086 port of CMforth.. i think that ran on the Novix 15:51:01 tcn: Correct -- well, cmForth ran on the Novix. 15:51:19 My DOS-based Forth will hopefully replace PygmyForth on my laptop. 15:51:25 But the best comparison I always use is to ask what VLSI CAD package to you use? How much code is required below it? 15:51:30 tcn: did you really download cmforth? i'm googling for it but i don't see anything downloadable 15:51:53 hang on 15:52:13 Other people think it requires gigabytes of code, Chuck did the required OS and application programs in about 20K, on Pentium in his first version. 15:52:19 it's a lot cleaner than, say, Gforth :) 15:52:50 If you have ever installed a dozen full CDs worth of code only to see that it can't do what Chuck does in 20K of code it is a striking comparison. 15:52:53 kitsune: Yup. I remember my first multitasking kernel (written in pure assembly, with intentions to link to software coded in C). Fully preemptive multitasking, memory management, etc. etc. -- 8K. 15:53:39 kitsune: I'm eventually going to implement FS/Forth for raw x86 too, and work on an operating environment called FS/OS. 15:53:56 I'm currently working with Jef Raskin on implementing the Humane Environment in Forth as well (you can bet it'll appear in FS/OS). 15:54:09 A bit of history: THE is a refinement of the system software used in the Canon Cat. :) 15:54:11 We had a very nice, fairly heavyweight, multitasker in 4OS, only a tiny step away from full multiprocessing support too. It was done by Dr. Montvelishky 15:54:47 kitsune: The most heavyweight multitasker I came up with for the 386 was around 500 bytes in pure assembly, and sustained (easily!) over 1000 task switches per second on a 25MHz machine. 15:55:05 Jef Raskin has wonderful ideas. He talked to SVFIG a couple of times about his research into the actual efficiency of different user interfaces. 15:55:26 * kc5tja nods 15:55:28 But most people don't want to think about things that are so pervasive as to be beyond consideration. 15:55:46 Well, I'm not most people. 15:56:01 hear hear :D 15:56:12 who want's to go with the current? pff 15:56:13 As I find myself writing more and more, I'm finding that even vi is a limiting factor for me. Though it's currently the most natural editor I have right now. 15:56:20 have you guys heard what's happening with RetroForth? 15:56:34 crc took over? 15:56:42 yeah 15:56:57 I haven't read Jef's book, the Humane Interface. But it sounded fascinating. CAT was also very interesting. 15:57:37 Yes. That book is HIGHLY recommended. It almost makes me want to drop my 8-button mouse in favor of a MacOS-compatible 1-button mouse. :) 15:57:44 The book was very enjoyable. I especially enjoyed Jef's unambiguous writing style. 15:58:09 (This is not entirely a joke either. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally clicked buttons 6, 7, and 8 while grabbing the mouse, since the buttons are on the side instead of on the top.) 15:58:30 you could disable those buttons :P 15:58:33 8-button mouse? 15:58:59 I had a friend who always joked that he got confused on Apples because he couldn't remember which mouse button to push. 15:59:05 Yes. It's the Microsoft optical mouse. It has three buttons on top (one being the wheel; plus "two" buttons referring to scrolling the wheel in the up/down direction), plus three thumb-accessible buttons. 15:59:15 the scroll button counts as 2 buttons. some mouses have 3 buttons on the top and 3 buttons on the side plus the scroll button 15:59:22 heh.. those wheels are even worse for causing carpal tunnel 15:59:55 Those wheels are actually quite handy. And they're not worse for causing it. Typing is far worse. 16:00:04 The problem is that we don't yet have a good interface for scrolling yet. 16:00:07 i prefer page up and page down to the scroll button 16:00:08 That's because scrolling sucks. 16:00:12 * kc5tja is totally sold on LEAPing now. :) 16:00:18 yep :) 16:00:20 It sounds like a joystick for air combat games, or a formula1 wheel with all the controls under the fingers. 16:00:35 LEAP sounds WEIRD but I imagine I could get the hang of it :D 16:00:51 s/sounds/seems 16:01:01 thin: I find myself using / and ? in VI *so* often that I wasn't even aware of it. I literally navigate throughout my entire document using those two search keys. 16:01:17 I didn't realize I was doing it until I read the book. 16:01:32 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 16:01:32 I rarely use the cursor keys any more, and almost never use page up/down. 16:02:01 The more and more I look at it, the more and more appealing the original Commodore 64 keyboard is to me -- less buttons, smaller keyboard. :) 16:02:05 Yeah, a PC that has a camera on your eye and follows your eye movements might be nice. Short of brain wave interpretation and a lot of AI it seems like it might help relieve the hand strain. 16:02:21 Unfortunately, it's not yet practicable for me because all of today's OSes seem to require the 104-key keyboards to work. 16:02:24 kc5tja: i make so many mode errors with vi (switching between command and interpret mode) its not funny :/ 16:02:44 thin: That's where THE comes in. There are no "modes." 16:02:47 yeah, I like my laptop keyboard.. it's close to the original keyset 16:02:48 i don't really use vi in the first place so maybe i haven't gotten to the point where its easier 16:03:02 kc5tja: yeah, i've read the book too you know :P 16:03:21 Not *all* of today's OSes. 16:03:30 The other nice thing about laptop keyboards is they'll often have the left and right mouse buttons right where the LEAP keys ought to be. :) 16:03:48 you could use 'em as leap keys 16:03:59 tcn: That's what I'm going to do on my laptop. 16:04:20 oh yeah, you did say it was nice :) 16:04:21 kc5tja: guess what, i had an idea for a better keyboard. you know the space bar? split it into 2 keys and instead use the ; key for space 16:04:40 When I was consulting at Pac Bell I moved around to different people's machines and I always had to spend a lot of time searching for keys on the various different keyboard layouts. 16:04:46 so that you have two keys in the place of the spacebar for quasimodes and you have the space key accessible to you on the homerow 16:04:53 That's also what Jef suggests for them as well. He strongly recommends the IBM keyboard with the trackpoint in it. I love those trackpoint keyboards (I just don't have the cash to pay for one right now). Even if you ignore the eraser tip, the button placement underneath the spacebar is damn near ideal for LEAPing. 16:05:13 get a used one like I did 16:05:38 tcn: Maybe later. 16:05:41 Well remember the qwerty keyboard was designed to slow people down enough to not jam primitive mechanical typewriters, also for the salesmen to type 16:05:56 * kc5tja nods 16:05:57 typewriter from the top line only with hunt and peck. 16:06:23 I'm using an ergo keyboard because of my wrists right now. I fidn that Dvorak really doesn't help with an ergo keyboard. BUT, with a non-ergo keyboard, Dvorak is a life saver!! 16:06:29 hehe.. and since there are so many querty boards out there, it's a pain in the ass to switch back to dvorak when you're home 16:07:08 I keep telling myself that when I finish my 65816-based computer, it'll support only Dvorak. :) 16:07:22 Ever seen a keyboard based on concertina keys? 16:07:34 Never heard of Concertina keys. 16:07:49 it's like a small accordion.. 16:07:50 kitsune: i think that EEG recognition is just as easy as voice recognition. especially because you can train yourself to emit specific EEG patterns. You could think "A" and produce a specific pattern and key the EEG reader to recognize that. there's been a pacman game with with the EEG 16:07:59 yes, but it is just software as to what keys map to what characters. It is dynamic in Chuck's colorforth, nice after it becomes reflex, but perplexing to a new user. 16:08:29 I'd like to experiment with that, actually. But I can't get any of his ColorForth implementations running on my hardware. 16:08:49 kitsune: Yes, I know. (re; key mapping) 16:08:56 Yes, but the 'hats' are still too obtrusive. 16:08:59 kc5tja: what's your slowest pentium? 16:09:19 thin: 455MHz K6-II 16:09:36 yeah i wouldn't think that would be able to run colorforth 16:10:00 my comp is 133mhz pentium and colorforth worked for me.. 16:10:14 Well, it doesn't run ColorForth because of hardware incompatibilities. None of my video cards are supported, and it might have some motherboard incompatibilities too. CF just "hangs" on my system. I have to hard-reset to reboot. 16:10:19 Chuck had an ATI Rage card, and I've got one, and that's the only machine I got it to run on.. the 800x600 version, that is.. 16:10:44 CF shouldn't care if its' running on a 66MHz machine or 66GHz. 16:10:45 tcn: did you run colorforth on your comp? how fast is your comp? 16:10:48 after that I decided any PC OS should support text mode 16:10:50 I remember when Microsoft stated that people needed to upgrade to a 68030 because a 68020 could not keep up with a fast typist in MS Word. ;-) 16:11:10 lol 16:11:21 350mhz K6-II 16:11:38 i'm using a 150mhz Pentium 1 now :) 16:11:57 kc5tja: do any of your videocards support vesa? 16:12:03 thin: No. 16:12:05 tcn: 75mhz 16:12:05 60, 90, 120, Pent, 400Mhz Pent II, all mostly garbage pile recovered systems. 16:12:08 VESA doesn't even support VESA anymore. 16:12:15 Ever check out the VESA 3 API specification? 16:12:28 kitsune: where do you find them in the garbage? 16:12:33 "Unlike VESA 2, there are no more standard video modes. Only the API is standardized." 16:12:56 heh 16:13:11 I'm serious. Not even 640x480 is standard anymore. Even the text modes are gone. 16:13:18 It's bloody rediculous. 16:14:15 This is another reason for the 65816-based computer: I have full knowledge of how the video subsystem works. 16:14:24 From people who have upgraded and need to recycle their old systems. Although sometimes you can find a few dozen old laptops thrown out by certain companies because they are just too old for them to bother fixing they by scavenging the pile for working components. 16:14:25 And it's bloody quiet, both in AF and RF frequencies. 16:14:27 the problem with CF is it doesn't always get the right framebuffer address when it queries PCI.. and if you don't have PCI, well, you could hardcode it.. 16:14:38 and that's why i want to decimate the entire computer industry with a faster smaller better cheaper computer/os combo :P 16:15:04 and put the majority of the programmers out of a job because of the 16:15:17 I want Commodore to come back. :~( *sniff* 16:15:18 heh. yeah. 16:15:44 buggy whips eventually become obsolete. There is not much anyone can do about that sort of thing. 16:15:57 I miss the days when you could just program, without worrying about syscalls, IPC and crap 16:16:36 heh.. buggies will come back in style when the oil dries up :) 16:17:26 Well, syscalls are a necessary evil. But this is why I adore exokernels: you syscall only to get permission to do something. Once you have permission, you have raw hardware access. 16:17:29 Anything goes. 16:17:42 Yeah, just the hardware manuals for the PCI bus etc. etc. is amazingly complex. Then there are all those layers of standards in hardware and software for backwards compatibilty, and then they just break the rules anyway. 16:17:47 (though it might have to abstract the hardware for protection purposes even after permission is granted; e.g., floppy disk controllers or harddrives) 16:18:05 the us government has 3 years worth of oil on federal land that is currently protected 16:18:20 3 years isn't enough. 16:18:23 also there's alaska, alberta's oilsand 16:18:51 And don't forget the La Brea tarpits... :) 16:18:53 Tar is just crude... :D 16:19:41 gzip.tar.pgp... 16:19:49 couldn't you have no protection for trustworthy programs, and syscalls for untrusted? 16:19:52 3 years isn't enough, but the us won't need to touch it for 10 to 20 years yet 16:20:19 tcn: No. The system can never fully trust software in a multitasking environment. 16:20:35 tcn: But what you CAN do is make system calls with zero-overhead (e.g., make them the same as normal function calls). 16:20:45 for a personal computer where you've written the trusted programs yourself? 16:20:54 Then when LOADING the software, dynamic symbol fixups will decide whether or not a function calls a trusted or untrusted version. 16:21:09 That's the C idea, not the Forth idea. Co-operative, not anarchy! 16:21:38 selfish individuals not second-handers! :P 16:21:38 Even with Forth: I do *NOT* trust software that is dynamically downloaded and executed, Forth or otherwise. 16:21:46 * thin recently read The Fountainhead ;) 16:21:50 kc: that sounds good.. it's just a kernel call or a library call.. 16:22:31 If I want to participate in the WWW community like everyone else, eventually, I'll be needing to write a Javascript interpretter, maybe even implement Java itself. 16:22:47 I sure as hell will not be caught executing those programs in a promiscuous environment. 16:22:49 I get by ok without java-anything 16:23:02 I don't. 16:23:11 'links' browser has javascript support now.. i just didn't compile it yet.. 16:23:20 thin: have you seen the film Ayn Rand a Sense of Life. ? 16:23:21 The overwhelming majority of the websites I frequent are heavily dependent on JavaScript. 16:23:27 kitsune: nope 16:23:29 Though I do not currently have a Java runtime installed. 16:23:45 is javascript pretty 'safe' though? 16:23:53 For the most part, yes. 16:24:05 But there have been Javascript hacks in the past. 16:24:09 McLuhan's Wake ? 16:24:14 kitsune: my next two books to read are atlas shrugged and then a bit of an anti-objectivism book "reconsidering ayn rand" to round out the mix :) 16:24:44 so you /could/ write a secure JS interpreter.. just don't support the dangerous/annoying functions 16:24:59 kitsune: nope i haven't seen any of those, and i'm not likely to see them in the future unless they happen to be subtitled in english or close captioned (i'm hard of hearing) 16:25:34 but i'll try to check them out 16:25:40 tcn: Well, yes, but how do you stop a JS program from opening windows on the display? How do you know what is or is not welcome? There's no statically defined way to do it. You either let the JS program open windows all day, or you don't (even for legit programs). 16:26:01 you don't let it open windows :) 16:26:11 tcn: But some sites you have to to get any work done. 16:26:13 you just KNOW they're gonna be ads! 16:26:25 Remember, I'm in a business, not all of my web browsing is for home or for fun. 16:26:41 tcn: No, that, again, is not 100% true. 16:26:59 I really wish people would stop making wide-sweeping and provably false generalizations. 16:27:19 i like making wide-sweeping generalizations with holes in them :D 16:27:21 It's the FEW that ruin it for the most of us. 16:27:32 actually i'm aiming towards a 2-computer solution.. this old laptop running my own OS, DOS linux, etc.. and a new one running Windows.. 16:27:32 FEW? 16:27:44 thin: Yes, the FEW. 16:28:08 Pop-up ads wouldn't be nearly the problem they are today if it weren't for Yahoo! using them a few years ago. 16:28:45 Then all the porn sites started usign them, especially in e-mail spam. People complained. But the solution was clearly, "Duhh, don't go to porn websites." 16:28:48 But do they listen? No. 16:28:50 web browsers are finally giving you enough control to enable popups only on sites in your 'trusted list' 16:29:20 tcn: I don't have a trusted list. IE 5.5 doesn't have one, and IIRC, neither does the latest version of Mozilla. 16:29:22 say, IE 6, or Opera 16:29:27 OK, two browsers. 16:29:31 whoo. 16:29:47 IE is the one that counts 16:29:55 Not in my book. 16:30:00 I don't use Windows. 16:30:17 And MacOS users won't be caught dead with anything on a PC. 16:30:21 (or with a PC) 16:30:34 heh.. maybe you ought to switch :) 16:30:52 tcn: Give me back my Amiga, and I'll happily switch. :) 16:30:59 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h002078ca1abb.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:30:59 Type sifbot: (or /msg sifbot to play in private) 16:31:17 hmmm...one hour until Aikido. 16:31:18 sifbot: get lost 16:31:19 tcn: Word not found: get 16:31:26 What I don't like are all the MS proprietary tags and HORRIBLE things like 'MS SMART BROWSING TAGS'! 16:31:31 does IE 5.5 or 6 have better bookmark management? (like netscape's bookmark editor) 16:31:33 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@h002078ca1abb.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 16:31:41 #*$&@ ISP 16:31:51 sifbot: ." Good evening gentlemen!" cr ." All your base are belong to us you have no time to survive make your time." 16:31:52 kc5tja: 16:31:56 Hehe. 16:31:59 It don't like me. :) 16:32:08 DHCP failed this morning 16:32:14 ." compiles strings 16:32:15 sifbot: .( I prefer using run-time words.) 16:32:16 Robert: I prefer using run-time words. 16:32:22 kc5tja: what does the current AmigaOS run on? 16:32:37 Amigas perhaps? 16:32:41 ;) 16:32:43 sifbot: ." so what?" . 16:32:44 thin: stack underflow 16:32:53 compiles strings where? 16:32:54 thin: AmigaOS 3.5 and earlier runs on 68060 and earlier processors. AmigaOS 3.9 runs on both, IIRC, and AmigaOS 4.0 runs on PowerPC-equipped Amigas. 16:33:04 sifbot: "roll over" type 16:33:04 thin: into the current definition. 16:33:05 tcn: Word not found: "roll 16:33:14 sifbot: s" roll over" type 16:33:16 tcn: stack underflow 16:33:20 sifbot: " roll over" type 16:33:21 tcn: Word not found: " 16:33:24 sifbot: : a ." roll over" ; 2 . a 16:33:26 Herkamire: 2 roll over 16:33:26 worthless 16:33:36 sifbot: help 16:33:37 sifbot: s" Roll over, Beethoven!" count type 16:33:38 tcn: Word not found: help 16:33:39 Robert: Word not found: count 16:33:42 Hmm. 16:33:50 sifbot: words 16:33:52 kc5tja: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ... 16:33:55 sifbot: .( sifbot sucks :P) 16:33:56 thin: sifbot sucks :P 16:33:58 oh right :) I didn't do counted strings. 16:34:18 kitsune: I fully agree. 16:34:54 sifbot is ok but i'd like to see a forthbot with more features and logs the channel, records statistics, word usage, etc :P 16:35:01 tcn: Part of my business is, actually, helping companies recycle existing infrastructure for new applications. If this means writing custom software to do it, then so be it. That's why I'm writing FS/Forth. :) 16:35:01 --- quit: wossname ("k.c") 16:35:36 hardware infrastructure? 16:35:38 tcn: Though currently, I'm pushing Linux for these machines. 16:35:41 tcn: Yes. 16:35:50 tcn: "Legacy equipment" in Microsoft parlance. 16:35:54 and what's FS stand for? 16:36:00 "Falvo Solutions" 16:36:13 (formerly "Falvosoft" back when I was 17 years old) 16:36:18 my old idea for an OS name is FLOS 16:36:19 thin: cool :) write one. you can use sifbot as a starting point if you want. 16:36:34 herkamire: i'd rather write the forthbot in forth :P 16:36:36 s" is a compile time only word. 16:36:46 thin cool, go for it 16:36:51 FLOS = fuxing l33t OS 16:36:52 :P 16:37:05 FLOS the nasty windows gunk out of your teeth! 16:37:18 And the shell is going to be called FLOSS -- Fuxing 1337 operating system shell, right? :D 16:37:27 have a commercial tv show with a guy with gross teeth & windows icons stuck in the mess 16:37:58 * kc5tja prefers the more conservative "FS/OS" for his native os environment. 16:38:02 kc5tja: heheh :) 16:38:30 i'm looking at ways to simplify linux 16:38:35 Named vaguely after GS/OS, the operating system for the Apple IIgs, which of course runs my favorite CISC CPU to date: the 65816. :D 16:39:07 Although I've often considered renaming it to OpenCAT (after the Canon Cat) 16:39:08 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 16:39:27 hello natty :) 16:39:29 maybe i'd join your in 65816 hacking, if I didn't mind setting up all the electronic junk again.. 16:39:48 tcn: Yeah, I know how you feel. I need to get all my stuff out of storage. :( 16:40:13 i need to get storage so that i can buy electronic junk :P 16:40:18 But I'd need to breadboard everything again, and that doesn't even address video generation either. 16:40:18 i've been living almost a nomadic life since my parents moved outta town 16:40:37 OUCH! My harddrives just sought cylinder 0! 16:40:45 No way, a forth channel! Hey fellow forth programmers :) 16:40:51 * kc5tja makes note to self: fsck before going to bed tonight! 16:40:52 natty: yes way! :D 16:40:54 moving 1, 2, 3 times a year.. makes it tough to carry much around 16:41:16 natty: do you have any forth coding projects? 16:41:24 w00t! forth programming ham radio operators unite!! 16:41:27 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin 16:41:34 well, i'm an ex-forther :) 16:41:41 kc5tja: wow another forth programming ham even! small world :P 16:42:02 natty: Now if only I had a proper antenna setup, I could try to sked you on 10m. :D 16:42:15 --- topic: set to 'http://bespin.org/~thin/ (temporary) | native x86 linux forth http://isforth.clss.net' by thin 16:42:45 thin: Occasionally I hack on Open Firmware 16:42:45 and I'm idely working on a perl-based forth interpreter 16:43:23 natty: apple hardware? 16:43:29 natty: you might be interested in #openbios 16:43:58 natty: I'm making a native ppc forth (under linux) that I plan to make bootable under Open Firmware 16:44:02 Herkamire: yeah, I own a powermac 7500 16:44:14 natty: Neat. 16:44:16 natty: coool 16:45:03 is openbios forth based? 16:45:21 it's coded in C but it's an open implementation of openfirmware i believe 16:45:26 Herkamire: hey that would pretty freaking cool 16:45:26 open source implementation i mean 16:45:31 * kc5tja is working on FS/Forth which will eventually control his 80486-based monochrome 33MHz 8MB laptop. :) 16:45:58 thin: ah well I'll have to check it out sometime, openfirmware is a good standard IMO (although I can complain endlessly about Apple's early implementations) 16:46:25 natty: openbios follows the openfirmware standard i think.. not sure tho 16:46:45 sklyan 16:47:17 FS/Forth will eventually be ported to my primary desktop machine, and then to my web server machine, where it'll serve my company's webpages instead of Zope. I'll miss Zope, but I think it'll be for the better. 16:47:26 kc: you have any 1-bit graphics code? 16:48:19 tcn: Nope. 16:48:27 herkamire: how about you? 16:48:28 But that's where I'll be starting off. 16:49:01 I won't support text mode; having both text and graphics mode support will just bulk up the kernel. 16:49:32 I wrote a little B&W code for an abortive DOS ABC music viewer.. 16:50:17 640x480 mode, which is convieniently about 64k 16:50:17 thin: what? do I have 1 bit graphics code? no 16:50:54 brb 16:51:32 I was going to support various video modes, but I was only going to write the code for 640x480 and 800x600, up to 16 colors. 16:51:39 it would still be handy for *efficiently* creating high res bitmaps for printing tunes 16:51:42 And yes, I vastly prefer bitplanes over chunky graphics any day. 16:52:16 4-bit is a pain 16:52:31 Not any worse than any other number of bitplanes. 16:53:03 hardly any worse than B&W, sure :) 16:53:08 My graphics architecture is going to be scene-graph-based anyway, so applications will have little interaction with the frame buffer directly. 16:53:32 explain.. 16:53:48 Applications describe what to display, they don't explicitly control how. 16:54:03 That is, they describe the display's contents using a data structure (usuaully a DAG or tree). 16:54:05 kc5tja: will the gui api for fs/os be similar to display postscript/pdf? 16:54:16 More similar to DisplayPDF than Display Postscript. 16:54:23 PDF is a scene-graph. 16:54:35 hm, ok 16:54:41 what is postscript? 16:54:42 Then, once the updates to the data structure are complete, the scene renderer task will talk the graph, and update the framebuffer accordingly. 16:54:58 thin: A RPN-based language for printing. 16:55:03 thin: Yes, it's Turing complete. 16:55:22 thin: And yes, it's highly Forth-ish. That's where the Post comes from in Postscript. 16:55:39 what i read about pdf is that it's basically the intermediate process between postscript and printing, and its for displaying the picture 16:55:47 s/picture/document 16:55:50 hold...phone. 16:56:06 kc5tja: that is also nice for multiprocessing, distributed displays, etc. 16:56:16 kitsune: display pdf? 16:56:27 nevermind 16:56:35 * thin is tired :P 16:56:44 the scene-graph approach you are planning to use 16:57:06 he is planning to use 16:58:45 yep 16:59:00 I think I will go do some work around the house. Later. 16:59:09 --- quit: kitsune () 16:59:12 i've been thinking something similar, i think 16:59:40 sort of an improved WMF 17:00:14 WMF? 17:00:50 Windows Metafile.. which is almost the same as CGM (a 1980's DoD vector graphics standard) 17:00:50 windows mouse fridge 17:00:58 :P 17:00:59 doh! close 17:01:13 ahh, yes 17:01:19 I've used those a long long time ago 17:02:11 it's not really the right thing for what Microsoft used it for (an intermediate format for display and printing) 17:04:03 I want a way to pipe vector graphics from one program to another, like you do with text in unix.. and bitmaps and text can be included within vector graphics.. 17:04:20 that's a nice idea 17:04:31 kc5tja: THE should have that ;) 17:05:01 THE ain't perfect 17:05:35 did i say it was???? 17:06:03 heh 17:06:48 are you getting all nazi on my ass because you haven't read the book? :P 17:07:24 the book is awesome. the website is not. don't dare check the website before reading the book :P 17:08:04 back 17:08:18 actually I may have read it.. I read _something_ about interfaces in the library at college.. 4-5 years ago.. 17:08:44 if it talked about modeless interfaces then maybe you read it 17:08:48 thin: THE should have what? 17:08:49 but there's quite a few interface books 17:09:05 may have been an earlier book by Raskin 17:09:14 i don't think he's written any other books 17:09:39 thin: Not books, but plenty of magazine and trade publication articles. 17:09:47 it made a lot of sense, but it was more a review of Apple, Windows, DOS programs, than a proposal for a new interface 17:10:02 tcn: No, it's a real proposal. 17:10:11 tcn: And it has the research and evidence to back it up. 17:10:24 he should have just written the code :) 17:10:33 But as you say, it's not perfect. No user interface is ever perfect. If it were, I wouldn't be porting THE. 17:10:48 kc5tja: THE has to integrate multiple content such as pictures and let you edit it at any time.. 17:10:56 doesn't it do something funny with the shift keys? 17:11:17 tcn: it exists, coded in python and runs on MacOS.. kc5tja might port it to linux :D 17:11:23 tcn: Only for non-LEAP-enabled keyboards, and only when entering humane quasi-mode. 17:11:33 thin: No, I gave up on the port. 17:11:36 thin: that's a good point.. you can't edit unstructured, turing-complete code that way.. 17:11:44 Jef and I both agreed a complete rewrite is in order. 17:11:52 kc5tja: ah good :) 17:12:18 I should give Jef some /constructive/ criticism :) 17:12:20 what's his website? 17:12:35 Constructive criticism in what sense? 17:13:14 improvements 17:13:39 that's assuming it's a basically good idea 17:14:03 That's an astonishingly close-minded mindset you're demonstrating. "Assuming" it's a " 17:14:07 "good" idea 17:14:27 We won't know until it's ported and readily available. 17:14:48 But the user reports from the Canon Cat testers indicates that the interface is damn near ideal for most users' needs. 17:14:53 tcn: maybe read the book before you offer criticism? 17:14:59 Yes, I agree. 17:15:00 this is the guy who invented the Mac.. i got a good reason to be skeptical 17:15:02 Read the book. 17:15:36 This is also the same guy who admitted, "The Mac interface was a mistake. While some elements in it are good, we just didn't have the science to say that what we were doing was good or not." 17:15:54 This is a guy who is extremely level-headed. 17:16:02 More level-headed than even myself, I might even admit. 17:16:23 and his writing style is extremely unambiguous 17:16:26 Like thin and I are saying, read his book. 17:16:34 Don't just go spouting off to him. 17:16:39 if the book is based on studying how people work with computers, it's the one i read 17:16:40 You'll only alienate yourself. 17:16:51 tcn: well refresh yourself then 17:16:55 "The Humane Interface" is what it's called. 17:16:56 and I read the whole web thing about THE 17:16:56 4-5 years is a long time 17:17:06 the website doesn't do the book justice 17:17:07 it was a new book 17:17:18 there's a HUGE chunk of information missing from the website 17:17:31 all the info is in the book 17:19:01 hehe.. the screenshot looks like the superimposed text on a TV 17:19:15 so there's a precedent :) 17:19:19 Transparent text is a critical element to THE. 17:19:33 Whoops. Time for aikido. 17:19:44 kc5tja: ok have fun 17:20:15 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK") 17:21:23 oh yeah.. it's all this press-and-release stuff that bugs me 17:21:31 ? 17:23:43 you don't seem to remember much from the book, so what harm is it to re-read it? if you don't re-read it then you shouldn't try to criticize it 17:23:48 it's in the spec.. \ = press shift, \ = release.. 17:24:01 = release 17:24:35 Windows has something similar with the Alt key 17:24:38 yeah it seems a bit weird, especially because he's adapted it to the common keyboard 17:24:49 ideally, a customized keyboard is used along with THE 17:25:42 say you change your mind in the middle of an Alt-F keystroke.. you're in 'menu mode' and keystrokes are interpreted differently.. possible with dire consequences :) 17:26:28 you just take your finger off the shift key 17:26:29 that's all 17:26:44 it's a quasimode after all 17:26:54 anyway, i now have an IBM laptop with the ideal keyboard.. maybe i'll try it if it doesn't involve downloading 50meg of libraries and compiling them 17:28:23 you can't run it without macos 17:28:26 heh 17:28:39 oh 17:29:09 python on macos. very odd 17:29:26 seems such a bizare platform for such a project 17:29:52 I wish he would just use the apple keys for his quasi-modes 17:30:20 he couldn't because the apple keys weren't commandeered 17:30:29 why not? 17:30:33 THE runs as a regular application window 17:30:41 yeah 17:30:42 so? 17:30:44 the apple keys would activate the macos menu or whatever it is they do 17:30:52 no they don't 17:31:00 I've done mac programming 17:31:14 ok i forget why then 17:31:20 i think he mentions a reason on his site? 17:31:35 or i'm just completely wrong about all this since i don't know anything about macs :P 17:31:44 aside from playing simANT :D 17:31:46 I read the site a while back. I don't recall any good excuse, except possibly being consistant with other programs 17:32:42 MacOS has a nifty function that checks your key event against the bindings in the menus for you, but that's it 17:33:37 maybe the python libs did what you say, but still, you don't have to put any bindings in the menus that use the apple key (you can put ctrl, alt and shift) in there. 17:34:09 why is python on mac os odd? 17:34:13 you know it's a unix now! 17:34:24 its got a bsd userland 17:34:27 it's not in OS X 17:34:32 are you sure? 17:34:37 it's in Mac OS 8 or 9 17:34:40 which isn't unix 17:34:42 ian@12-249-67-169 ~ % python 17:34:43 Python 2.2 (#1, 07/14/02, 23:25:09) 17:34:43 [GCC Apple cpp-precomp 6.14] on darwin 17:34:47 oh 17:34:51 really? 17:34:53 that is weird 17:35:00 maybe it works in OS X now/too 17:35:09 but when I tried it it was under Mac OS 9 17:35:21 it came with a binary for python 17:35:25 well mac os x is diff than os7/8/9 17:35:36 hehe obviously 17:35:52 I tried it in OSX 17:35:58 it rules actually, my os of choice. and itd be hard to pick between os9 and windows nt 17:36:01 it needed the classic environment 17:36:05 which I don't have installed 17:36:21 what app is this? 17:36:23 THE? 17:36:24 it seems like a great open software product. but how many open source, python, mac 9 people are there? 17:36:37 Herkamire probably not a whole hell of a lot :P 17:36:54 os9 is dead 17:36:59 almost 17:37:13 ianni: no it's not 17:37:26 most of the mac people I know are running Mac OS 9 17:37:28 it is to most people using it, or it will be soon 17:37:43 it's dead to apple, at least 17:37:55 classic runs most things 17:39:06 many companies still develop with OS 9 compatibility 17:39:53 damn Apple is plans everything to be obsolete in 2 years 17:40:01 OS-9 is the devil 17:40:24 ever notice how they're always changing their cable pinouts? 17:41:04 well so was os-8 17:41:33 Herkamire, which companies though 17:41:48 cable pinouts for? 17:42:15 * ianni is kinda ignorant, hasnt heard of that before 17:42:50 but I guess every version can't be as revolutionary as OS7 was 17:43:31 well, except for the inroads USB has made, PCs have the same old serial, parallel, vga, ide, ethernet.. 17:43:59 tcn: which apple just switched to because it's customers bitched about it 17:44:17 tcn: asside from that apple has been very consistant about the ports 17:44:18 they switch every couple years 17:44:27 tcn: switch what? 17:44:54 anyway, ever since I first used a Mac in '86 maybe, i've hated i'm 17:45:07 er, hated 'em 17:45:33 i'm no windows lover either ;) 17:45:45 tcn: good for you. but don't make shit up so you can badmouth Apple 17:46:07 i've seen it with my own eyes 17:46:19 and heard people bitching 17:47:10 what pinouts are you talking about? 17:47:37 anyway, we've got better things to talk about. it's just a stupid business strategy of Apple's, and they're suffering for it 17:47:46 From the Mac II right through the early G3s the only major port change made was loosing the floppy drive port 17:48:03 natty: exactly 17:49:53 ok, maybe it's since the G3.. but it's typical of Apple's past behavior of purposeful incompatibility 17:50:24 heh. this isn't #macs.. 17:50:33 tcn: that's total bullshit 17:51:24 all 3 of you are Mac users.. no use arguing :) 17:51:40 apple has switched from 16 bit processors to 32 bit, and up until OS X at least you can still run code written for the old 16 bit machines. 17:52:02 I don't mourn the loss. 17:52:03 tcn: mac users like Apple. There's reasons for that 17:52:09 Anyway I'm no Apple apologist, I used to love Macs but eventually I got really sick of the expensive hardware and the difficulty of developer. 17:52:09 of becoming a developer that is, what with having to spend hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on Inside Macintosh 17:52:35 I think most windoze users dislike if not openly hate Microsoft. 17:52:46 well I got an idea i need to work on.. you guys have fun talking about macs ;) 17:52:51 Well, actually, hardware compatability and openness have never been a strong point with the macintosh line of computers. The Apple II line was excellent in that respect. 17:53:10 tcn: stop being an asshole pls. thx 17:53:28 ADB has never been fully documented, nubus has barely been documented at all... 17:53:39 I don't like Apple. Well they're improving but I still haven't forgiven them for past transgressions :) 17:53:59 thin: ok, i'll let Fractal take over that position 17:54:19 Don't get me wrong, though, I love mac hardware. 17:54:32 --- quit: tcn ("asshole & proud of it!") 17:54:36 Much better, quality-wise than most x86 machines 17:54:39 I've lost interest in Mac OS 17:54:56 but I think Apple are good people, and they make damn good hardware 17:55:02 apple can change the hardware standards easier because they are the only ones who produce the machines.. with PCs, many companies are producing clones 17:55:03 I hate its reliance on the mouse as an input device 17:55:17 However, being somewhat of a mac collector, I know first hand hardware compatability and standardness is not a strong point with macs. 17:55:28 it has some shortcuts, but from using ion at work, I have come to loath the mouse 17:55:34 feh these are all old arguments, hashed over about a billion times :) 17:55:34 Mac OS is pretty good for a mainstream commercial OS 17:56:28 Now what I want is a way to load and execute forth code files from within openfirmware 17:57:13 hey and let's not forget, apple was the first and is still the only mainstream computer manufacturer who puts a forth interpreter in ROM :) 17:57:16 natty: I thought you could do that. do you have the OF spec? 17:57:28 Don't forget, the original floppy drives in the macs were purposefully made non-compatible with the competitor's formats. It is not possible to use a floppy disk formatted with the apple 800k floppys in any PC floppy drive. 17:57:31 --- quit: thin ("bye") 17:57:50 They rectified this fairly early on with their "superdrive" 17:58:04 Fractal: I could be wrong, but I don't think that's how it went. 17:58:22 Microsoft decided NOT to support apples disk formats. and still doesn't. 17:58:23 natty: you can load file from openfirmware 17:58:24 Herkamire : What do you mean? 17:58:44 Apple supports Microsoft's removable disk formats. 17:58:56 Herkamire : No, it has never been physically possible to read/write these floppys in a PC drive. It's not a software issue. 17:59:16 natty: I have a game of pong written in forth, I can load it from a HFS+ partition 17:59:26 Keep in mind, this only applies to the 800k floppy drives. The ones shipped all the way up to SEs 17:59:36 Fractal: what?? can't you just read the cylenders? 17:59:52 fridge: Yeah? rock! 18:00:12 Herkamire : No. 18:00:14 Let me find a link... 18:00:25 Fractal: oh, I've never had a mac older than SE30 18:01:13 Yes, the SE/30s shipped with superdrives, thank god. 18:01:28 Er, I'll be back shortly. 18:01:32 superdrive? 18:01:38 Um... google around for superdrive + 800k etc 18:01:48 Ya 18:01:59 that's wierd how 'superdrive' is used for so many different products. 18:02:05 Ya. 18:02:08 k bbl 18:02:33 I thought you were talking about the recent drive that did floppys and big disk (100MB or something) 18:02:50 recent = ~3 years ago? 18:02:50 I wouldn't be surprised if an automobile claims to have 'superdrive' 18:34:16 Herkamire : Oh the zipdrives? No... 18:34:24 Iomega Zipdrives, ya... 18:37:52 Incidentally, the docs on controlling the floppy drive have never been released either. 18:38:16 Linux/mac68k and BSD/mac68k don't support floppys at all. 18:38:39 yeah it's funny how people always complain about how MS doesn't like competition, when Apple is one of the most anti-competitive companies ever 18:39:09 Reading a GCR disk on a MFM drive is like reading a music CD on a record player 18:39:10 (uses vinal records for music, pre-90s thing). It won't work. 18:39:38 Yeah, well neither MS or Apple have good track records in that department... 18:40:46 Actually not being able to read the hold mac floppies is a real pain. 18:41:06 MS is just the more successful company so they attract more attention, when in reality they aren't really any worse behaved than any of the big corps, like adobe or macromedia or apple 18:41:21 well maybe a little worse 18:41:30 I have to transfer files to one of my other macs' HDD, and then copy that to an 800k floppy, and then from there to the Plus (or the SE) 18:42:00 hm well you could just not use the plus or the SE :) 18:42:56 Well, I would argue much worse than adobe... Adobe has really built its business upon open formats... .ps, .pdf, the image formats of photoshop, html 18:43:01 Not too sure about macromedia 18:43:26 Heh no they're great machines. :) 18:44:04 Like a PC from that age would be completely useless now, but the SE is a great machine even now. 18:44:57 nah you can do lots of stuff with a 386 :) 18:46:02 No, this would have been 8086 and PC junior days. :) 19:21:35 my mom did graphics design on the SE 30 :) worked great. I remember Illustrator being more responsive than a newer version on a blue and white G3 19:22:00 Fractal: yeah, it really bothers me that you can't find documentation on how your hardware works. 19:22:30 I'm writing an operating system, and I may have to refer to the linux sources to write some of the hardware drivers. 19:22:51 documentation for this stuff is hard to find, and sometimes _very_ expensive 19:25:26 I can't believe companies have the gual to charge hundreds of dollars for the documentation for hardware that I already bought 19:32:05 one of my friends wrote a simple open source x86 OS last year 19:32:14 for his computer engineering sr. project 19:33:52 http://www.christopherdeguise.com/projects/halos/ 19:35:04 It might be a simpler OS for you to reference than Linux 19:35:28 I just need hardware drivers for my mac 19:36:12 oh this is mac hardware 19:44:43 is there anything on that page 19:53:24 2ah i got it 20:14:32 --- quit: natty (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:19:40 --- join: natty_ (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 21:14:04 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 21:17:12 --- quit: natty_ (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 21:17:44 --- quit: Herkamire ("bedtime") 21:18:31 --- join: natty_ (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 21:19:09 --- quit: natty_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:19:14 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 21:20:00 Going for food. brb 21:20:18 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food 21:39:11 --- quit: tgunr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:40:00 --- join: tgunr (~davec@vsat-148-63-143-139.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 22:10:15 --- quit: sifbot (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:10:50 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@h002078ca1abb.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth 22:16:17 --- join: karingo (karingo@78.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 22:28:41 --- quit: karingo () 22:28:48 --- join: karingo (karingo@78.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #forth 22:40:33 sifbot: bye 22:40:35 ianni: Word not found: bye 22:40:39 he heh 22:40:55 sifbot: . 22:40:56 ianni: stack underflow 22:42:53 sifbot: .( we gotta bop that bop) 22:49:27 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja 22:49:33 back 22:50:08 sifbot: 355 133 / . 22:50:10 kc5tja: 2 22:50:16 oops 22:50:21 sifbot: 355 133 / . 22:50:23 kc5tja: 2 22:50:26 sifbot: 355 113 / . 22:50:27 kc5tja: 3 22:50:30 That's better. :) 22:50:42 sifbot: 35500 11300 / . 22:50:44 kc5tja: 3 22:50:53 sifbot: 35500 113 / . 22:50:54 kc5tja: 314 23:16:36 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:19:02 --- join: bwb (~bwb@ip68-4-121-108.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #forth 23:19:05 kc5tja: hey 23:23:28 re bwb 23:23:32 Sorry, was browsing the web. 23:27:20 n/p... 23:27:51 regarding how school suck... did you read paul graham's article ("Why nerds are unpopular", tho its a lot more in depth than that) 23:27:59 s/$/?/ 23:28:39 Yes, I have. 23:28:42 Interesting article. 23:28:45 brb -- bathroom 23:28:45 yes 23:29:01 my mom just read it... she has a book that is pretty similar actually 23:29:02 k 23:30:50 back 23:32:01 k... 23:32:29 My mom drove (I went with her) my sister and one of her friends... and the friend was heh... 23:32:44 pretty much the epitemy of what the article said 23:32:49 * kc5tja nods 23:32:54 I used to be like that. 23:32:56 she had no idea what her parents do for a living, neither of them :/ 23:32:59 Still am in some ways. 23:33:12 erm I am not refering to the nerd side.. but the popular side.. 23:33:40 Like just a few hours ago, I was entertaining thoughts of a compressed air-powered car, using a multi-stage turbine to extract motive power from it. 23:33:47 Oh, popular. 23:33:52 heh 23:33:52 Yeah, I'm definitely not popular. 23:33:53 :) 23:34:20 yeah I'm fully on the nerd side... 23:34:36 --- quit: natty (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 23:34:37 Nerds of the world, coagulate and congeal! 23:34:38 :) 23:34:40 Tho I get along with everyone in boy scouts (/me big leader there) 23:34:43 heh 23:34:50 Nice 23:35:19 --- join: natty (~n1ywb@155.42.84.139) joined #forth 23:35:19 I use aikido as my daily dose of social interaction. :D 23:35:41 The comparison with adults going back in time to school actually makes sense... one of the quotes that my dad had about me (from like when I was 10 at least) was I was "born an adult" 23:35:48 yeah 23:36:11 being home schooled... I really need some sort of interaction (still don't get enough :/) 23:36:11 Yup. Same thing with my parents. 23:36:38 But that is why I work up at summer camp 23:37:00 its great, fresno is a totally different environment then socal 23:38:34 I actually enjoy it more 23:38:48 * kc5tja nods 23:39:29 but, after reading that article, I really do see it more and more... kids not knowing what they want to do, not knowing life outside of school 23:41:29 and actually now I see big advantages with home schooling (4 years ago I definatly didn't) 23:43:27 prolly hardest part with being home schooled is having almost 0 people to hang out with, not to say that you would have many people in schools... but still 23:44:40 Yup 23:44:45 I sure wish I were home schooled. 23:45:07 I have a friend of mine who was home schooled, and he holds personal attributes that I simply lack. I'm envious of him. 23:45:31 such as? (out of curiousity... I don't actually get along with other home schoolers that well...) 23:49:10 He has an extremely firm grasp of logic and work ethic. 23:49:22 ah... logic? 23:49:25 Logic. 23:49:32 just thinking in general? 23:49:42 As in, you can never prove a negative, etc. 23:49:55 ah 23:51:05 I'm not too sure on my work ethic.. work as in school work i'm not as keen on, but working as in a job I think I have a pretty good ethic. (A lot of staff members at the camp had kinda a "fsck off, this isn't the hilton"-mentality which I thought wasn't good) 23:51:33 (school work as in don't always get it done :/) 23:54:44 * kc5tja nods 23:54:48 I just get burnt out too easily. 23:55:00 ah 23:55:14 --- quit: karingo (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:56:24 I never want to work the same way my dad does... 7 days a week, from 5am to 7pm everyday :( (Hes cofounder of a web advertising company) 23:58:43 I don't mind that, as long as I'm the boss. 23:58:58 Unfortuantely, in our economy, that's pretty much a requirement to earn any kind of living. 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.04.16