00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.14 00:22:29 --- quit: bwb ("Later") 00:48:09 --- join: futhin (futhin@dial-145.ocis.net) joined #forth 00:48:36 Heh futhin: What's up with "very argumentative"? 00:48:52 Am I really that arghumentative? 00:49:03 how old are you? 00:49:13 20, why? 00:49:23 you canadian? 00:49:27 Yes... 00:49:43 are you libertarian? 00:50:04 no, you aren't that argumentative 00:50:12 i remember a mild argument with you 00:50:21 No, I think the very idea of libertarianism is a disgusting attack on intellectualism. 00:50:40 but there was this othe guy on the channel that i confuse you with 00:50:49 lol 00:50:49 No, I don't really mind. 00:50:54 are you into intellectualism? 00:51:16 have you read any ayn rand? 00:51:34 Yes, I've read Capitalism, the unknown ideal 00:51:40 And... One other thing... 00:51:46 * futhin just finished reading The Fountainhead today 00:52:01 rereading anyways 00:52:14 i read it for the first time when i was 17 00:52:32 Yes, they're striking in naivity and gross leaps of logic... 00:52:33 about 5 years ago 00:53:08 hmm 00:53:12 well i haven't read what you've read 00:53:37 I plan on picking up atlas shrugged sometime soon 00:54:00 Well it applies to most right wing thought to varying degrees... 00:54:31 Actually, I don't really consider true libertarianism to be inherently "right wing" 00:55:09 But most "libertarian partys" are just organized, capitalist political partys that want to reduce the state for their own economic gains... 00:55:15 * futhin doesn't care about "right" or "left" distinctions, they just serve to confuse people :) 00:56:00 true libertarianism is still about selfishness as virtue 00:56:20 yeah i remember arguing with you 00:56:22 about economics 00:56:36 you have a weak grasp of economics ;) 00:56:44 i'm only joking a little bit 00:56:49 i'm not trying to start an argument 00:56:50 hehehehe 00:57:37 Well, I think it's pretty clear that anyone who argues basing an economy on libertarian principles has an even weaker grasp than I do, but I don't want to argue this. 00:58:20 lollll 00:59:10 i still don't understand how two people apparently capable of reasoning and perhaps similar education can disagree 00:59:28 it's a mystery 01:00:20 Well, actual political disagreements are usually based on ethics or morals, not so much education. 01:01:42 hmm, i dunno, i suspect that a lot of people who disagree have similar concepts of ethics/morals.. 01:02:17 but i could easily have gone the socialist route 01:02:22 instead of libertarian 01:02:52 the key difference is control over people & how much you trust people to behave, etc etc 01:03:13 and whether or not you believe you should care 01:03:37 for example, if i was greatly concerned about deviations from the "plan" then i would aim to exert more control 01:04:15 but there's a handy quote that i try to remember that goes something like "controlling people doesn't give them the opportunity to control themselves" 01:05:25 in the libertarian world, those who deviate from the plan have to be tolerated as much as possible.. and it's HARD to swallow the urge to control people.. 01:06:23 Yes, well fundamentally we probably both agree on a number of things. My problem with libertarianism is that it directly plays into the hands of established power systems, and if adopted on a large scale will doubtlessly result in higher concentrations of power and wealth for a select few. 01:07:10 how does it play into hands of established power systems? 01:07:50 * futhin tends to think of a libertarian state being established on a fresh island, not in the midst of already established power systems 01:08:46 Well, look at the libertarian partys in the US. They advocate, for instance, lowerinf minimum wages. They advocate larger tax breaks for the wealthy. They argue against trade unions. All of this will serve to increase the wealth/power of the established capitalist system. 01:10:21 Well, that was the idea behind the US, really. They wanted to establish what we would consider today a libertarian state in "the new world". 01:11:17 yes, hwoever the US constitution pretty much got perverted.. 01:11:19 Unfortunatley, pure free market capitalism didn't work as well as was hoped, forcing a stronger centralized state. 01:12:16 --- join: ramnull (~nicad@12-241-145-39.client.attbi.com) joined #forth 01:12:23 i'm not aware of what kind of problems happened, i'm not aware of the history, but just because the US didn't stay as a pure lassez faire capitalistic state doesn't mean it doesn't work 01:12:35 powermongers could've been responsible for the change 01:13:06 let me detail a little timeline of the changes to the government that i know of 01:13:58 1) in late 1800's the people in administration decided they wanted more power to change the constitution, etc so they passed some amendment to make future amendments much more easier 01:14:15 2) then they slowly started taking over the banking & currency system 01:14:15 er 01:14:18 not late 1800's 01:14:19 early 01:14:27 i dunno, my dates are bad 01:14:39 3) then they introduced taxes 01:14:50 4) and printed money and blahblahbalh 01:15:08 my memory is a bit hazy :D 01:15:47 the only book that i've read on libertarian thought is "restore the american dream" by robert j. ringer 01:15:56 and i stumbled on it quite accidentally 01:16:05 but he really presents a very logical argument i thought 01:17:36 Well, from what I know, government intervention was required in order to save a dying economy. 01:17:50 That is, in the early 1900s 01:18:02 Before that the US government was very, very limited. 01:19:02 And what economists call a "market stall", and what marx calls "increased concentration of the means of production" occured. 01:19:23 fractal: it's not clear to me that lower minimum wages, larger tax breaks for the wealthy, and no trade unions is a bad thing for the economy, from what i learned in microeconomics classes, a good economy affects everyone, not just the wealthy 01:19:41 And income tax, guaranteed employment, market regulation, etc, etc were the only things that saved the US at all... 01:20:06 Another of the reasons why the US economy was failing was because slavery was abolished, but that's another argument altogether. 01:20:23 Ah, you're speaking of Reagen's "Trickle Down Effect" 01:20:42 lower minimum wages means more jobs, larger tax breaks for the wealthy means multiple things, 1) more money for the wealthy to invest 2) less money for the government to waste etc, and trade unions also affects employment 01:21:59 when the government taxes, it takes money directly out of the economy with the purpose of redistributing the money, but by the time the money has been redistributed, only a small amount gets back into the economy 01:22:03 it makes a huge difference 01:22:44 That's one scenario, yes. Modern western thought seems to hope that that is the case, however there is strong evidence to suggest that lowering minimum wage will 1) create more money for the wealthy to invest 2) The wealthy will invest in a) getting more money b) automating the means of production in order to employ less workers. 01:23:44 Which was, I believe, the case in late 19th century america. 01:23:47 hello futhin :) 01:23:52 Actually, most of the world, at the time. 01:23:53 hello all 01:23:54 hey hey hey hey onetom_ :D 01:23:58 Hey onetom_. :) 01:23:59 you're back! 01:24:03 you're in the house! :D 01:24:09 the forth house 01:24:25 im here all the time w 1 eye @least 01:24:36 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom 01:24:40 you said you were gone for a week 01:24:52 i regulary chk the quoted urls 01:25:06 oh, that wasnt a week unfortunately 01:25:15 we came back 2days l8r 01:25:35 coz the was snow & storm 01:25:48 futhin : Oh ya, would you mind linking to my forth page? www.hcsw.org/frugal/ ? 01:26:09 & all the plants/flowers, the subjects of our experiments has frozen 2 death 01:26:11 fractal: lets suppose canada stopped subsidizing farmers and what the heck, stops subsidizing the diary industry (including in quebec). lots of thousands of people are suddenly unemployed. bad thing or good thing? 01:26:14 It's a little sparse now, but soon I will release my forth for the TI-83+ graphing calculators and I will have more on it. 01:27:37 i'll update the website tomorrow or on wednesday 01:29:09 futhin : Well, bad for who? The unemplyed workers, obviously quite bad. The economy as a whole, probably bad as well. The small farmers already struggling to keep their heads above water, disatrous. The large farming conglomerates, perhaps bad and good: On one hand, they don't get an subsidy money, on the other hand, it will drive the smaller operations (who don't have enough capital) out of business in short order. 01:30:07 it might be a bit bad for the workers and maybe the economy initially 01:30:13 but 5 years or 10 years down the road? 01:31:36 Well it's difficult to say. It depends on too many things. 01:32:19 It might create massive monopolies, ruining the industry, or it might force an industry to be more frugal and save the industry. 01:33:32 But in many cases, it's a question of wether we want a, say, wheat industry or not. 01:33:54 For instance, in alberta, there was a massive drought this past year. 01:34:37 you're kinda forgetting about trade 01:34:40 Many of the wheat farms would plain be shut down if it wasn't for government funding. 01:35:12 protecting industries is more political than economical 01:35:36 trade is better, even at the loss of jobs. subsidization just ruins the benefits of trade 01:35:52 What affects economics affects politics, friend. 01:36:30 How so? 01:36:37 i meant political as in, politicians want to stay elected so they try to avoid upsetting the economy temporarily, even though it'll be better in the long run 01:37:26 Well, you're assuming that removing subsidys *will* be better in the long run. 01:37:30 Subsidies 01:37:38 i recommend Greg Mankiw's textbook "Microeconomics: canadian edition" (that's what i have) it was a very enjoyable read, read it 2 times 01:37:51 i'm planning on getting Greg Mankiw's Macroeconomics textbook 01:38:20 smart guy, youngest harvard economics professor i think 01:38:36 very well written book :D 01:38:49 converted me from communist to capitalist :D 01:38:51 What it be? People are actually chatting in here. 01:39:05 ramnull: yeah about non-forth stuff 01:39:08 you didn't notice? :P 01:39:20 pages and pages have been written since you joined the channel 01:39:34 Actually I was off on a different vt working on stuff. 01:40:15 I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that removing subsidies on canadian farming will accomplish anything in the long but drive smaller operations out of business. 01:40:33 And keep them out of business. 01:40:54 uh, what's important about keeping them in business? 01:41:14 you're concerned about monopolies i guess 01:41:16 Farming? I sure the hell dont want Monsanto Corp. in charge of our food supply. 01:41:51 most monopolies are created by the government thru policy (because of powerfuly lobby groups) especially in the usa 01:42:28 isn't monsanto corp now Ag corp ? 01:42:30 futhin: These big agricartels make Enron look like the Mickey Mouse club. 01:42:42 futhin : Well, almost all self respecting capitalists are against monopolies, with the possible exception of hardnosers like Friedman. Adam Smith was very against monopolies. 01:43:11 ramnull: enron was a small blip on my radar screen, i didn't even bother to find out what it was or what it was about :P 01:43:21 futhin : Most monopolies are created by the free market in spite of the government. 01:43:30 lol 01:43:41 Lets see here, back in the 70s they were charged for poisoning some rivers in Mississippi. 01:43:41 Maybe you're forgetting that the government, when it can, heavily regulates against monopolies. 01:43:55 fractal: yeah, but it's an illusion 01:44:35 fractal: and the antitrust branch is a branch, the government is a big octopus controlled by millions of people 01:44:44 futhin : So let me get this straight. If we disband the government now, the free market's magic wheels will turn and monopolies will be destroyed? 01:44:45 Up here in Michigan they have guys that drive around and check to see if any of thier genetically modified stuff was scattered on some local farmers land, and then either force the farmer to pay up or torch his crop. 01:45:08 ramnull : I know, isn't that ridiculous? 01:45:14 fractal: there are some natural monopolies. note i said "_most_ monopolies are created by the government" 01:45:15 I've heard of similar cases. 01:46:23 futhin : Well there are cases when *publicy owned* monopolies can be beneficial. 01:46:30 Well, some of the locals in the rural communities are getting fed up. If the courts dont rule in thier favor, thier gonna start torching Monsanto crops. 01:47:10 But I can't think of a single case where a privately owned monopoly has been created by the government because of lobby groups. 01:48:59 Lets see here "create foo 2 allot" should give me enough room for an Integer and two characters. 01:49:32 * ramnull is switching back into Forth mode from his foray into Assembler. 01:49:47 ramnull : Well, a cell and 2 characters, yes. 01:49:57 Er... 01:49:59 No, sorry 01:50:03 Just 2 characters 01:50:15 create doesn't actually allocate any Paramater Field 01:50:22 Fractal: Start counting at zero right? 01:50:43 Sorry? 01:51:04 Fractal: Counted strings start at zero. 01:51:28 Er, yes... 01:51:56 Got it. 01:52:09 Fixed a slight bug. I was counting off from 1. Heh. 01:52:44 Er, ok... 01:52:46 I'll be back soon 02:05:19 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 02:39:28 --- quit: ramnull ("This isn't Happy Hour!") 03:05:41 --- quit: tgunr (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds) 03:55:39 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950FA75.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:22:24 --- join: deluxe_ (~deluxe@pD950FA75.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:24:55 --- quit: deluxe (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 04:34:34 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 04:49:10 --- join: PoppaVic (PoppaVic@tnt02-66-96.sfld.provide.net) joined #forth 05:15:14 --- join: mur (murr@baana-62-165-185-72.phnet.fi) joined #forth 05:15:34 Terve 05:15:49 terve :) 05:16:02 no school in sweden mondays? 05:16:37 * mur wonders because half of the swedes seem to be online in irc 05:16:39 Påsklov! 05:16:56 vilken dag er påsk? 05:17:18 Nästa helg 05:17:35 thought so 05:17:44 * mur plays some colonization :) 05:18:10 i was just hour in real world (tm) photoing .. well i did not photo anything actaully, but i took dog for a walk same time. 05:18:22 nice colours, but not much subjects 05:19:34 the colours are mainly brown gamut, black and white. very earthlike. although my companion (bark bark) restricted a bit 05:20:32 * Robert wants summer 05:21:36 does summer want you? :P 05:22:51 No idea :( 05:45:31 --- join: ircleuser (~tgunr@vsat-148-63-143-139.c189.t7.mrt.starband.net) joined #forth 05:57:19 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Really doesn't need a Reason.") 07:25:47 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 07:42:27 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@1Cust228.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:42:53 gilbertbsd you there ? 07:43:19 --- nick: mark4 -> I40r 07:57:38 --- quit: I40r ("Reality Strikes Again") 08:01:38 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@1Cust110.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:12:12 --- quit: mur (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:18:46 --- nick: ircleuser -> tgunr 08:19:20 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 09:00:38 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:06:06 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust128.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:09:17 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@1Cust143.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:10:45 Hey 09:13:10 hi 09:13:28 i THINK ive fixed isforth for running under fbsd using linux emulation 09:13:28 not sure 09:15:51 oh heh and i did another release yesterday :P 09:16:39 for s/w under linux emulation I didn't think there was anything to fix! 09:16:50 yes there was 09:16:56 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:16:59 it wouldnt run under linux emu 09:17:06 --- nick: mark4_ -> I440r 09:17:21 but you might still have problems building the kernel in fbsd 09:17:33 binaries! 09:17:37 it would be built as a bsd executable, not as a linux executable 09:17:59 yes. you would need an already assembled kernel binary and then you could extend locally 09:20:45 so you re-wrote all of /lib/ncurses in asm for forth? 09:20:54 s/forth/isforth 09:21:01 no i rewrote it all in FORTH heh 09:21:05 not all of it though 09:21:11 and i didnt copy the ncurses sources 09:21:28 i read the man 5 terminfo page and figured out how to parse terminfo files 09:21:48 there were only a couple of items i didnt get from the man page 09:22:11 like. the ascs format string. its an ascii translation string to do alt charset stuff with 09:22:42 terminfo however is absolutely 100% totally fscked in the head. its the most crippled standard ive ever seen 09:22:56 even worse than mil std 1553 :/ 09:23:05 which can be REALY confuzing heh 09:23:21 mil std time? 09:23:34 it is not ambigous 09:23:35 no 09:23:45 oh mil std 1553 09:23:48 what isnt ambiguous ? 09:24:03 I thought you meant mil std time. 09:24:24 I dunno what std 1553 is. 09:24:33 its a serial communications protocol used in military aircraft 09:24:34 is terminfo described better elsewhere? 09:24:38 th4e DDC ACE chip etc 09:24:54 no. the problem isnt the descriptions. its TERMINFO thats fscked. 09:25:10 it 'grew' over the years didn't it? 09:25:34 specifically every single terminal in existance has CRIPPLED terminfo databases. the databases NEVER have a complete set of format strings 09:26:01 it can be a perfect standard. all they have to do is write NON crippled terminfo databases 09:26:25 i.e. all rxvt style terminals (ater, wterm... ) support the SGR format string 09:26:39 NONE of them show a format string for this escape sequence 09:26:45 this is REALY fscking annoying 09:27:07 because in order to change ANY single character attribute i have to do this 09:31:49 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@1Cust146.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:32:16 sorry about that my fone line keeps dying 09:32:29 anyway, as i was trying to say, its the terminfo databases that are messed up 09:32:37 what was the last thing i said so i dont repeat myself :) 09:32:45 because in order to change ANY single character attribute i have to do this 09:33:13 switc off all attributes using the SGR0 09:33:18 reestablish all attributes i didnt want to change. 09:33:25 re-establish the foreground and background colours which sgr0 reset to the default 09:33:42 and changing colour attributes is the absolute SLOWEST thing you can do in a terminal 09:33:53 greetings and salutation fellow forthers, i have not been on this forth channel before so wanted to say howdy 09:33:56 changing fg or bg is slower than moving the cursor arround the screen 09:34:12 terve tgunr 09:34:27 but they FORCE you to do it because rxvt's dont have a format for sgr, just sgr0 09:34:32 hi tgunr :) 09:34:39 you a forth expert or a newbie ??? :) 09:35:03 say newbie :P 09:35:08 Well, I have been using Forth since abut 1976 09:35:22 :O 09:35:24 oldbie 09:35:31 Was 3rd person to get FIG running 09:35:35 starting forth '79 edition right? 09:35:52 That was Leo 09:36:16 well mark4_ has a forth in asm for linux 09:36:26 Do I know any of you? Name here is Dave Carlton 09:36:28 and speuler has a forth in bash at forthfreak.net 09:36:42 gilbert. 09:36:48 I am a perpetual newbie. 09:37:10 LOL me too, I run the Open Firmware department at Apple 09:37:22 yeah. newbie. right. 09:37:52 how is forth at apple? 09:38:00 Alive and well 09:38:02 So, tgunr, have you finished that port of OF for x86? 09:38:03 I don't think many people know there is a forth lurking somewhere in its soul. 09:38:24 We have a staff of 6 09:38:32 LOL 09:38:39 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@ip68-8-206-137.sd.sd.cox.net) joined #forth 09:38:47 --- join: mark4__ (~mark4@1Cust222.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:38:50 hehe 09:39:08 how long has apple has a forth ? 09:39:13 If I acknowledged that ,well they would have to shoot me! 09:39:19 ok this is pissing me off now 09:39:21 grrr 09:39:23 dammit :/ 09:39:28 tgunr :-) 09:39:30 About 10 years now 09:39:34 wow. 09:39:41 '93! 09:39:48 what prompted them to use forth? 09:40:00 Sun 09:40:08 I was the 2nd hire at Apple for Forth, Ron Hochsprung wrote the original implementation 09:40:40 Yes, Open Firmware was going to be used for the CHRP boxes 09:41:08 * TreyB worked for Be, Inc. 09:41:24 TreyB: did the BE also have a forth in its soul? 09:41:39 CHRP? chirp? 09:41:44 I came on in '95 and Ron was using it when they went from 68000 to PPC 09:41:52 Cool, S! 09:42:07 did the se/30 have forth as well? 09:42:09 gilbertdeb: nope. Be's boot ROM actually contained a stripped down version of the kernel :-) 09:42:20 CHRP=Common Hardware Reference Platform 09:42:30 TreyB: something like lilo? 09:42:42 tgunr: i asked if you were new to forth and then my connection died again :/ 09:42:56 gilbertdeb: Probably something mroe like AmigaOS. 09:42:56 gilbertdeb: more like Linux BIOS. 09:43:10 kc5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 09:43:13 yo! 09:43:17 ltns :) 09:43:36 Heeheh :) 09:43:38 mark4__ he writes forth for apple's prom :) 09:43:40 I should be in college now. 09:43:44 Always learning Mark 09:43:57 But my car won't start (blew the 80A main fuse somehow), and it's pouring rain outside. The rain probably shorted something. 09:44:21 No, the first real production ROM with Forth was the original PPC machines 6100,7100,8100 09:44:49 They were PPC boxes with NuBUS 09:45:13 I came on with the next generation , 7200 was my project 09:46:28 Sun boxen also have Open Firmware in them. 09:46:44 so what is the main job of the firmware? 09:46:51 Booting. 09:46:53 Nothing more. 09:47:21 brb... 09:47:23 We build a device tree structure describing the hardware then boot the OS and hand of the structure to them 09:47:39 of=off 09:47:41 Oh yeah, I forgot about the device tree. 09:47:43 Sorry. 09:47:50 my keyboard is dropping chars :( 09:47:51 It's too early in the morning for me. 09:48:05 why forth... is that a complex job? 09:48:10 We are basicall a HAL to the OS 09:48:17 are you just passing like hardware addresses of the installed devices or something 09:48:43 sorry for dumb questions :) 09:48:46 I will show you an example 09:49:02 ianni: Forth is a very simple environment to implement, while offering an overwhelmingly powerful (even if not the speediest) language environment to write software in. This is nearly ideal for small device drivers and such. 09:49:11 *nod* 09:49:27 -> <- Empty dev screen ok 09:49:28 -> <- Empty .properties 09:49:29 vendor-id 000010de 09:49:29 device-id 00000200 09:49:29 revision-id 000000a3 09:49:29 class-code 00030000 09:49:31 interrupts 00000001 09:49:33 i've been intersted in forth for quite some time. I understand the language.. but as far as implementing it I have a way to go 09:49:33 min-grant 00000005 09:49:36 max-latency 00000001 09:49:37 subsystem-vendor-id 00000208 09:49:39 subsystem-id 0000a5b8 09:49:41 devsel-speed 00000001 09:50:08 i see 09:50:41 so the firmware is the initial bridge between the motherboard and the OS 09:50:45 in a way 09:50:46 Ah, device class three. 09:51:02 exactly, we also program all the MB chips in prep for OS 09:51:13 cool 09:51:43 tgunr: also in forth or in ppc asm? 09:51:47 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 09:51:51 speaking of which, I need to get back to programming a thermal calibration routine 09:51:57 i work in an apple/solaris shop.. do mac/and java development. wish it was forth 09:52:03 s/and // 09:52:13 mostly forth, some ppc asm in the kernel 09:52:15 tgunr: come back and join us some time. 09:52:25 I will be lurking here 09:52:29 Cool. 09:52:54 just starting to use gforth so I thought i would find a forth channel 09:54:38 you're in the right place 09:54:41 tgunr: have you seen my isforth? - its not finished yet but its getting there ":_ 09:55:04 btw, when was that interview with chuck? that was great reading 09:55:41 what is isforth? 09:56:28 mark4's baby! 09:56:36 isforth.clss.net "_ 09:56:45 no documentation other than the sources and the readme heh 09:57:01 ill fix that soon ennuff tho... erm i eventually that is :) 09:57:33 YAF 09:57:46 Forth is so malleable, why not? 09:57:59 I concur with Chuck that what's needed isn't a source-level standard, but a publication standard. 09:58:13 if you code assembler you sould have no problems :) 09:58:16 Despite the multitudes of different Forth dialects out there, I find my code to be extremely portable. 09:58:21 I think what we need is more standards 09:58:25 there just aren't enough of them 09:58:31 how many are needed? 09:58:35 im not sure what that means kc5 but i do know this. what we DONT need is the ans standard 09:58:36 how many does cobol have :) 09:58:43 What I want is a self documenting Forth development system like emacs lisp has 09:58:59 I just started using EMACS and am lovinf it 09:59:08 what were you using before? 09:59:14 I hope you'll come back to vim! 09:59:16 * kc5tja hates Emacs. 09:59:20 vi or bbedit 09:59:26 emacs rules 09:59:31 use joe. joe is crappy but its the least crappy of them all in linux "_ 09:59:33 well, vim has some really good qualities :D 09:59:37 :) even 09:59:52 * kc5tja is currently a VI user, and when I'm done, I'll be a THE user. 10:00:02 THE? 10:00:06 the only reason i see not to use emacs is speed. and it's quick enough for me on my dev machines.. 10:00:09 why don't you all use 'ed'. 10:00:14 it is the standard editor. 10:00:17 Jef Raskin's The Humane Environment 10:00:21 * kc5tja is going to port it to Linux. 10:00:22 i just use vi on remote unix boxes or for amazingly huge files 10:00:27 C:\DOS\EDIT.COM 10:00:29 I refused years ago to learn another editor so I stuck with vi, I wish now I had looked at emacs harder, it is great, as extensible as Forth is 10:00:34 edlin's better 10:00:38 LOL try ed 10:00:41 --- quit: mark4_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:00:44 I love ed 10:00:45 theres already a version of THE for linux isnt there ? 10:00:55 kc5tja: whats neat about THE? 10:00:59 i want multi edit version 3.01 for linux 10:00:59 I've tried to use emacs a few times, but whenever it comes to harder things like regex substitution, I head straight for vim 10:01:11 fridge - why? 10:01:19 its what I'm used to 10:01:19 note. NOT the 7.x versions. the 3.0x versions from the early 80's is what i STILL use in dos 10:01:23 *nod* 10:01:25 I use sed :) 10:01:25 gilbertdeb: Well, for one, it has a selection *stack*, which makes text editing substantially simpler in a number of cases. 10:01:36 selection stack? 10:01:44 have I been deprived? 10:01:53 ha 10:01:56 Yes, you can select one block of text, select another block, then give it the "SWAP" command, and it'll exchange the two blocks. 10:02:05 ianni: I wish there were a sed for binary editing! 10:02:13 I liked the old Polyforth block editor, simple and fast 10:02:30 ah I see what you mean. 10:02:55 tgunr i never liked polyforth and my boss had even patched it to use flat files :/ 10:02:55 I was looking at leo, but it might be broken. it is simply an outliner with a different viewing pane... 10:03:00 http://humane.sourceforge.net -- read through that site for THE-related material. 10:03:01 but you can do that sort of thing in there as well. 10:03:15 actually, i was using chipforth for the 8051 which used polyforth for the HOST 10:03:20 tgunr: VIM. Return to VIM. 10:03:20 gilbertdeb: No, not anything *close* to what THE can do. 10:03:30 are you serious? 10:03:43 THE isn't just a text editor. It's a user interface design. 10:04:00 didn't jeff raskin work for apple as well? 10:04:14