00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.11
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05:07:42 <sifbot> Type sifbot: <forth code here> (or /msg sifbot <forth code here> to play in private)
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10:40:03 <Speuler> 'evening
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11:00:01 <mur> moi Speuler
11:04:00 <Speuler> terve mur
11:04:20 * mur will leave now
11:04:28 <mur> i'll do some art and handi work :)
11:04:56 <Speuler> in forth ?
11:05:07 <mur> with hands :)
11:05:33 <mur> perhaps something from fabric (synthetic fur) and then refurring plastic
11:05:37 <mur> those were my plans
11:05:42 <Speuler> ah
11:05:49 <mur> refurring = making new cover
11:05:51 <Speuler> requires creaftmanship
11:06:02 <Speuler> craftman...
11:06:56 <Speuler> how's it going with forth ?
11:07:04 <mur> withme?
11:07:12 <Speuler> ehm.
11:07:15 <Speuler> yes ?
11:07:31 <mur> as well as with modula
11:07:38 <Speuler> requires craftmanship too
11:07:51 <mur> quite a bit other kind
11:09:54 <mur> argh. modula looks just like basic and pascal 
11:10:03 <mur> boths annoying features taken, that is
11:10:09 <Speuler> thought modula is dead. 
11:10:22 <mur> modula-3 has homepage at least
11:10:30 <Speuler> oberon ?
11:10:35 <mur> i have never coded modula
11:10:54 <Speuler> i've been competing with a modula-iii programmer
11:10:57 <Speuler> using forth
11:10:59 <Speuler> he lost
11:11:19 <mur> :)
11:11:46 <mur> http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/  <- tresure chest :)
11:12:13 <Speuler> some years ago. he managed to get a TSR together (MSDOS) which dio most of the time not crash when displaying "hello world" and was just 50 kb big
11:12:31 <Speuler> at that point i was on the way coding the app already
11:12:38 <Speuler> which then was aobut 2 k
11:12:43 <Robert> Heh.
11:12:44 <mur> nice
11:12:59 <Speuler> got larger of course later
11:13:12 <Speuler> but then i moved it to ems
11:13:26 <Speuler> and the remaining stub was about 3 kb
11:13:43 <Speuler> i used compiled forth for that, not interpreted
11:13:56 <Speuler> i.e. no forth kernel in the app
11:14:05 <Speuler> just the required code
11:14:31 <Speuler> could compile small tsrs with less than 1 kb
11:14:43 <Speuler> (not code size, memory usage !)
11:14:49 <Speuler> including stacks
11:14:52 <mur> OOOH. now i remember _prolog_
11:15:19 <Speuler> i think only assembler allowed you to compile tsrs that small
11:15:23 <Speuler> to assemble...
11:16:15 <Speuler> modula was no match at all
11:16:26 <Speuler> just not made for those kind of application
11:17:37 <Speuler> finally i got the bloody interl 82845 to - some - disk i/o speed ...
11:17:44 <Speuler> intel
11:18:09 <Speuler> if you wanna install linux on a brookdale chipset machine, expect some work to be done ...
11:18:14 <mur> handicraft fun now
11:18:19 <mur> see you some time
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11:19:05 <Speuler> i see that as confirmation that intel i8x0 machines are better avoided
11:19:41 <Speuler> wasn't exactly pleaed nor satisfied with the i810
11:20:07 <Speuler> and this was the last i845 system i've put my hands on
11:23:02 <Speuler> rant
11:24:21 <Speuler> anyone knows how the gforce chipsets (not the graphics cards, but the host bridges) work and perform with linux ?
12:01:43 <Speuler> ehm.. nForce, it is called, i think
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14:24:01 <ramnull> I440r been around recently?
14:27:59 <Robert> Not in a few days, no.
14:37:39 <ramnull> Been hacking around on IsForth, putting together some Framebuffer routines for it.
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14:43:16 <ramnull> bbl
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16:00:16 <futhin> hi herkamire :)
16:01:23 <Robert> Hey Herkamire, futhin 
16:05:00 <Herkamire> hi futhin, Robert :)
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16:48:09 <futhin> ho ramnull
16:50:52 <ramnull> Whats up?
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16:55:05 <Robert> Hello..and goodbye
16:55:08 * Robert goes to bed
16:55:29 <ramnull> What's up I440r?
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16:55:52 <Fare> hehe
16:56:02 <Fare> #objectivist-forth ?
16:56:53 <ramnull> I guess.
16:57:07 <Fare> hehe
16:58:17 <ramnull> Lets see here it's "create foo allot , ," yes?
16:58:18 <ianni> hah
16:59:39 <Fare> what does "create do?
17:00:27 <ramnull> ib
17:00:56 <ramnull> Makes a spot in memory and then labels it.
17:01:25 <ramnull> Or rather
17:01:35 <ramnull> Puts the label in the wordlist.
17:02:29 <ramnull> For some reason allot keeps segfaulting the Forth.
17:02:53 <ramnull> bbl
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17:15:52 <I440r> hi ramnull
17:15:55 <I440r> hi fare!
17:16:13 <I440r> create creates a word header and a default code field of "dovariable"
17:16:22 <I440r> so create crates a variable :)
17:21:34 <Fare> default code field? how do you modify that?
17:24:58 <futhin> default code field = default code that is run
17:25:21 <futhin> sometimes its a pointer to an address sometimes it's the actual code to be executed
17:25:25 <futhin> depending on the threading model
17:25:57 <futhin> (i might be wrong here, heh)
17:29:30 <I440r> which forth faults on "allot" ?
17:35:40 <futhin> you can modify the default code field to point to a different piece of code.   ` EMIT is DOSEMIT   the word ` parses the word EMIT and gets the address of the default code field.  the word "is" points it to DOSEMIT
17:36:07 <futhin> so i guess you could do ` EMIT <nonsensenumber> !
17:36:16 <futhin> and store a nonsense value to the default code field
17:39:21 <I440r> no thats not right 
17:39:26 <I440r> ' (emit) is emit
17:39:36 <futhin> it was just an example
17:39:39 <I440r> ' (print) is emit \ send emits to the printer ?
17:39:43 <futhin> from pygmy
17:39:49 <futhin> doesn't really matter, it's an example
17:39:50 <I440r> ' (devnull) is emit
17:39:51 <I440r> heh
17:40:00 <I440r> its a buggy example:)
17:44:03 <I440r> which forth has allot segfaulting ?
17:44:05 <I440r> not isforth ?
17:46:39 <futhin> why ?
17:46:49 <futhin> ramnull left
17:47:01 <futhin> i'm not sure what forth he is using
17:47:22 <I440r> i was hoping someone would know :/
17:48:18 <futhin> well why don't u test allot in your isforth and see if it segfaults? :P
17:48:32 <I440r> it doesnt for me :)
17:48:39 <I440r> but that doesnt mean it doesnt for him
17:48:41 <futhin> ramnull is either using gforth or isforth :P
17:48:47 <I440r> i sorta need to know this sort of thing :P
17:48:58 <futhin> heh
17:49:14 <futhin> have you been doing a lot of coding lately?
17:49:27 <I440r> ive done a little
17:49:52 <I440r> ive fixed some bugs, improved the isforth scripting 
17:49:58 <I440r> added a few more bugs :/
17:53:47 <futhin> bugs are awesome
17:54:03 <futhin> adding them is an artform
17:54:19 <futhin> requiring great patience, great strength, and uber dedication!
17:54:38 <I440r> exactly
17:54:52 <I440r> and this bug only exists in the LINUX terminal!!!
17:54:52 <I440r> :)
17:57:20 <futhin> yay!
17:57:41 <futhin> where's the metacompiler? the multitasking? :P
17:57:53 <futhin> how do you think you are going to do the assembler?
17:58:10 <futhin> you are going to HAVE to do some parsing.. some, a little bit, a tiny weeny little bit!
17:58:29 <futhin> ` (emit) is emit   <-- ` is parsing.  IS is parsing
18:00:24 <I440r> and ?
18:02:13 <futhin> the word ` is parsing
18:02:27 <futhin> it parses for the word in front of it
18:02:32 <I440r> yes
18:02:35 <I440r> and ?
18:02:43 <futhin> so don't be afraid to parse in your assembler!
18:02:57 <futhin> your isforth assembler
18:04:02 <I440r> im not thinking that far ahead yet
18:04:13 <futhin> ??
18:04:16 <futhin> you were working on it
18:04:19 <futhin> then you set it aside
18:04:33 <I440r> not ready for the assembler yet
18:04:44 <I440r> need it now, not ready to write it yet
18:04:44 <futhin> because you couldn't figure out how to do it with no parsing or something..
18:05:07 <futhin> not mentally ready to write it?
18:05:20 <futhin> how do you become ready?
18:05:23 <I440r> no. im not against parsing words like some people :)
18:05:54 <futhin> do you have a ritual for getting ready to code? ;)
18:06:19 <futhin> what? YOU are the person against parsing :P
18:06:45 <I440r> no - mrreach is
18:07:33 <futhin> heh, i didn't know that
18:08:54 <I440r> he avoids them if he can. i dont avoid anything except ans forth :)
18:10:23 <futhin> i could have sworn you made a lot of noise about avoiding parsing
18:12:01 <futhin> well it's about time that i should get off the internet
18:12:18 <I440r> no. not me
18:12:32 <I440r> i thunked YOU did
18:15:52 <futhin> nope
18:15:53 <futhin> heh
18:16:27 <futhin> well time for me to go
18:16:29 <futhin> bye all
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18:24:46 <I440r> well im outa here. l8er ppl
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18:57:14 <jdamisch> hi
19:00:26 <jdamisch> yawn
19:01:13 <jdamisch> http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/IhateMS.html
19:03:07 <jdamisch> zzzzzz
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19:07:50 <jdamisch> i have to ask a stupid question
19:09:02 <jdamisch> it's cool on these boards to just log in and then sit around for hours on end saying nothing?
19:11:35 <jdamisch> i guess dood
19:11:52 <jdamisch> well, it's light on the bw
19:19:44 <jdamisch> bye
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19:32:28 <jdamisch> we are all on qualudes
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19:36:55 <jdamisch> hi
19:37:25 <jdamisch> people just like to come here to hang out and be cool
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19:57:36 <Out-To-Lunch> Proprietary Object Orientated Protocol
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20:36:31 <Out-To-Lunch> hi
20:40:47 <Soap`> Morning
20:42:51 <Out-To-Lunch> wake up call
20:42:53 <Out-To-Lunch> how are you
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20:46:33 <jdamisch> so, anything new and exiciting in the little corner of the world they call isforth?
20:46:57 <TreyB> You'd have to ask I440r.
20:47:12 <jdamisch> just trying to make conversation
20:47:25 <jdamisch> atleast its native
20:47:56 <jdamisch> i guess that there are reasons why somebody would do Forth on top of something else, like Java, but it doesn't appeal to me that much
20:49:01 <TreyB> A forth that generated java bytecode has the advantage of a nearly universal runtime environment but a lot of baggage to go with it.
20:49:27 <jdamisch> it wouldn't be lean would it?
20:49:32 <jdamisch> it would be really slow
20:49:50 <jdamisch> kinda like running forth on top of an operating system on top of an operating system 2*
20:50:22 <TreyB> It would probably perform acceptably in a JIT, which you have to work pretty hard not to have these days.
20:52:10 <jdamisch> http://webdev.amsystech.com/mlosh/
20:52:19 <jdamisch> this guy doesn't seem to run very fast
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20:58:18 <jdamisch> do you know what the motivation for creating isforth was?
20:58:45 <jdamisch> suppose, to prove my manliness, i would need to write a forth someday :^)
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20:59:23 <TreyB> I don't need to prove my manliness (I already have two sons :-), but I want to write a forth sooner rather than later.
20:59:54 <jdamisch> any ideas for it
21:00:42 <TreyB> I want to play around with forth as the core of an OS.  A real one, with premptive scheduling, virtual memory, etc.
21:01:22 <jdamisch> old style Forth uses cooperative multitasking and blocks for virtual memory
21:01:32 <TreyB> Usually.
21:02:00 <jdamisch> what is the advantages of premptive vs cooperative?  its not apperent to me
21:02:02 <TreyB> Not that that style doesn't have its place, but I want something a bit more adventurous.
21:03:15 <TreyB> Cooperative scheduling works well for a small number of tasks in a well-defined system, but I don't think it scales very well.
21:04:51 <jdamisch> how about another question,  if you are going to put this OS on PC hardware, and it has like 4megs in it, then how do you get it on the PC
21:05:00 <jdamisch> that won't fit on a boot floppy
21:06:33 <TreyB> I expect to use a hard disk eventually.  I'll probably bring it up under VMWare first.
21:07:07 <jdamisch> i see
21:07:27 <Soap`> TreyB, when you say "forth as the core of an OS" are you talking about writing the OS kernel in Forth?
21:07:49 <TreyB> That way I can cross compile from gforth or isforth under linux, write to a virtual HD and then boot another VMWare session from the virtual disk.
21:07:56 <TreyB> Soap`: yes
21:09:41 <jdamisch> what is VMWare?
21:11:21 <TreyB> www.vmware.com
21:11:40 <jdamisch> looking
21:16:04 <jdamisch> that might be advantageous
21:16:28 <jdamisch> i guess you really don't have to choose :^)
21:16:53 <TreyB> Choose what?
21:17:00 <jdamisch> what OS you use
21:19:20 <TreyB> As a bootstrap host?  I prefer a UN*X for this sort of thing personally.
21:24:00 <jdamisch> do you have VMWare on your machine now?
21:24:30 <jdamisch> i'm not sure that it's really a VM is the sense that i'm used to
21:25:16 <jdamisch> i think they had something remotely like this on the very early AtariST, it would let you load two OS sessions on the Same ST if you had alot of RAM
21:25:35 <jdamisch> VM still a sexy term
21:32:57 <TreyB> VM == virtual machine, also Virtual Memory.
21:33:26 <jdamisch> i know VM means virtual machine but i usually think of Forth or Java when i think of VM
21:33:47 <jdamisch> this is another definition of VM as far as i can see
21:33:55 <jdamisch> not knocking it or anything
21:34:41 <TreyB> Sure.
21:35:01 <TreyB> As to your question, yes I run VMWare.  4.0.0 as of today.
21:35:12 <jdamisch> was it easy to set up?
21:35:43 <jdamisch> i wonder how compatable it is across hardwares
21:35:51 <TreyB> It takes two reboots to upgrade from an earlier version under windows, but asside from that it installs in a snap.
21:36:10 <TreyB> You don't even have to reboot under Linux.
21:36:47 * TreyB builds isForth 1.12b.
21:43:22 <jdamisch> well, it was a nice chat
21:43:30 <jdamisch> bye
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