00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.05
01:01:01 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com")
03:07:39 --- quit: PoppaVic ("(I don't need a reason)")
03:12:40 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9E4E163.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
04:22:37 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth
04:22:45 <Robert> Hi
04:23:19 <fridge> hey =)
06:41:25 --- join: krish (~krish@202.9.171.202) joined #forth
06:41:28 <krish> hi all!
06:41:43 <Robert> Hi krish :)
06:41:43 <krish> gforth is pretty fast ...
06:41:54 <krish> anyone here using ficl ?
06:43:11 <Robert> I don't
06:43:29 <krish> anyone else ?
06:43:51 <krish> i'm thinking of using a forth interp. for an embedded language
06:44:29 <krish> any ideas ?
06:53:59 <deluxe> hello krish
06:54:08 <deluxe> embedded where?
06:54:40 <krish> in an application
06:54:46 <krish> forth as an extension language
06:57:21 <deluxe> app written in what?
07:05:23 --- quit: krish (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
07:24:58 --- join: ASau (~asau@158.250.48.197) joined #forth
07:26:10 <ASau> Good evening!
07:28:10 <Robert> Hey ASau!
07:28:17 <Robert> Long time no see :)
07:29:05 <ASau> No matter. I worked on other things.
07:30:07 <ASau> What do you think about Gforth?
07:30:55 <ASau> I've looked at new 0.6.1 ... too little documentation for such a big thing.
07:30:57 <Robert> Have't used it alot
07:30:59 <Robert> brb, food
07:39:00 --- quit: deluxe ("Client exiting")
07:59:51 <ASau> Hm...
08:17:39 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81214.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth
08:25:12 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust139.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
08:27:28 <ASau> Good evening!
08:29:47 <I440r> hi
08:30:40 <ASau> Just to start... What can you say about Gforth?
08:33:44 <I440r> nothing bad because ive never used it. i know i wouldnt like it much tho, i dont like any ans compliant forths
08:33:44 <I440r> much
08:33:54 <I440r> :)
08:34:34 <ASau> And what forth do you use then??
08:34:41 <ASau> Color?
08:35:17 <I440r> no. isforth
08:35:46 <ASau> Ah!..
08:36:13 <ASau> I always forget something... ;)
08:37:10 <I440r> i just released 1.12b and about 2 hours after releasing it i fixed another bug heh
08:37:18 <I440r> i gtg, im moving house today :)
08:37:22 <I440r> bbl maybe
08:37:22 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
08:45:20 --- quit: ASau ("Toffee IRC client for DOS v1.0/b535")
08:46:02 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com")
09:30:41 --- join: futhin (futhin@dial-204.ocis.net) joined #forth
09:32:08 <Robert> Hi there.
09:32:28 <futhin> word
09:32:44 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth
09:32:56 <futhin> robert: ever been to the figuk irc meets?
09:33:20 <Robert> Nope.
09:33:24 <Robert> Any idea where those are?
09:33:36 <Robert> I browsed through their site some time ago, it's great.
09:33:41 <futhin> i'm trying to find out that
09:33:47 <futhin> yeah their site is pretty decent
09:34:26 <futhin> they've got some good content and they've got some code
09:34:31 <Robert> Haven't found any better forth site.
09:34:41 <Robert> I mean, with mixed information/code.
09:34:54 <Robert> ultratechnology is great for articles and essays...
09:34:55 <futhin> oh don't you worry, the #forth website will soon dominate! ;)
09:34:58 <Robert> Hehe.
09:34:59 <Robert> Riiight
09:35:11 <futhin> it'll take work tho :/
09:35:20 <futhin> i'm gonna put up a forum
09:36:25 <fridge> nooooooo
09:36:56 <futhin> ?
09:36:57 <futhin> heh
09:37:00 <fridge> I have issues with web based forums, they have this magical power of attracting lower life forms
09:37:15 <fridge> draws them out from under the bridge
09:37:35 <futhin> depends on which forums you've been too
09:37:44 <futhin> and whether or not there was a lot of activity on it
09:37:50 <fridge> IRC is a forum!
09:37:54 <futhin> i've recently discovered forums over the last 2 months
09:38:08 <futhin> and i've been to quite a few really nice, really helpful forums
09:38:21 <futhin> these weren't computer-related forums though
09:40:15 <futhin> a lot of people are not inclined to get on irc because irc is kind of a timewaster.   and a lot of people aren't inclined to check CLF
09:40:20 <futhin> so forums is the best way
09:40:34 <futhin> to capture the people who don't IRC much and dont check CLF much
09:40:44 <futhin> most CLF posters seem to be lamers anyways
09:40:51 <futhin> and far too much ANSI crap
09:56:08 <gilbertdeb> futhin: don't you like standards?
10:01:52 <futhin> sure, but the ANS standard is not a very good one
10:02:03 <gilbertdeb> because of the number of synonyms?
10:02:47 <futhin> because it's too complex, too big, because it's an execution standard instead of a publication standard
10:03:39 <futhin> since forth is a portable language, you don't really need to specify an execution standard
10:04:05 <futhin> you could implement a set of words on all forths that can run "standardized" code
10:04:11 <futhin> er
10:04:29 <gilbertdeb> a new one is called for isn't it?
10:04:31 <futhin> you could implement a set of words on all forths so that "standardized" code could run ontop of the set of words
10:04:34 <futhin> yep
10:05:02 <futhin> yes, i think some people are going to get together and design a new one soonish ;)
10:05:19 <gilbertdeb> will you be one of them?
10:05:50 <futhin> nah, maybe i'll organize it but i wouldn't consider myself enough of an expert
10:06:10 <futhin> i'll just get chuck moore and others to come up with something ;)
10:06:43 <gilbertdeb> but that will be an ans colorforth then won't it?
10:07:05 <futhin> i'm not going to institutionalize the standard
10:07:22 <futhin> it's not going to be "american blahblah standard"
10:07:29 <futhin> it's going to be an unofficial official standard
10:07:35 <futhin> people can chose to adhere to it or not
10:07:36 <futhin> who cares
10:08:00 <gilbertdeb> standards tend to take on a life of their own.
10:08:08 <futhin> sure
10:08:39 <futhin> but it won't become an institutional standard
10:08:45 <futhin> it'll be grassroots
10:10:14 <gilbertdeb> will it be large or small?
10:10:30 <gilbertdeb> if small, how small would you like it to be?
10:11:14 <futhin> less than 100 words, preferably less than 50
10:11:31 <futhin> i got to go
10:11:36 <futhin> be back in 1 1/2 hours
10:11:42 <gilbertdeb> mkay
10:12:06 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
10:15:45 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Monk has left the building")
10:24:31 <fridge> I don't think chuck would work on any standard, he'd see it as a waste of time, and ask people to just write a new type of forth for every system they create
10:26:59 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s66.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth
10:57:47 --- join: Sh4x (~get@dsl-134-141.aei.ca) joined #forth
11:01:01 --- quit: fridge ("http://lice.codehack.com")
11:02:52 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-187-75.phnet.fi) joined #forth
11:07:57 --- join: thin (~thin@198.162.22.66) joined #forth
11:08:39 <thin> fridge: chuck wanted a publication standard
11:08:49 <thin> i can probably coax him to give me an outline ;)
11:09:01 <Sh4x> If anyone has free time on their hands, I'm trying to compile isforth... I gotta make a game with it for school and I'm really new to forth so I'm having a hard time just to compile. Once it'Sscompiled tho I'm alright to do basic things :)
11:09:03 <thin> hopefully anyways
11:09:25 <thin> sh4x: what's the problem? having trouble compiling it?
11:09:31 <thin> sh4x: you have linux right
11:09:37 <Sh4x> well I just don'T really know what to do
11:09:42 <Sh4x> ya, mandrake 9.1
11:09:46 <Sh4x> isforth 11b
11:10:03 <Sh4x> dnloaded nasm... still dont get it
11:10:39 <Sh4x> i just need a compiled forth.. maybe u could just send me a zip filed of isforth compiled
11:11:01 <Sh4x> latest version if possible
11:11:10 <Sh4x> which is 12b i beleive
11:11:26 <thin> nah i don't have linux right now
11:11:30 <thin> i've compiled it before tho
11:11:36 <thin> are you following the instructions :P
11:11:39 <thin> what have you done?
11:11:47 <thin> where does it give you an error ?
11:12:17 <Sh4x> i extracted nasm to my forth directory.. then in console typed make linux like they say
11:12:24 <Sh4x> errors happens right there
11:12:30 <Sh4x> says it cant find some file
11:12:38 <thin> which file?
11:13:00 <Sh4x> ya i'd have to reboot in linux and retry for that :P
11:13:47 <Sh4x> i'm just lost i dont think it's even possible to help me via irc without just sending me the file already conpiled.. im really new to this
11:13:52 <Sh4x> linux and forth :o
11:14:04 --- quit: thin (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
11:14:30 --- quit: wossname (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:14:42 --- join: thin (~thin@198.162.22.66) joined #forth
11:15:38 <thin> which file?
11:15:50 <Sh4x> [14:12:43] <thin> which file?
11:15:51 <Sh4x> [14:13:05] <Sh4x> ya i'd have to reboot in linux and retry for that :P
11:15:51 <Sh4x> [14:13:52] <Sh4x> i'm just lost i dont think it's even possible to help me via irc without just sending me the file already conpiled.. im really new to this
11:15:51 <Sh4x> [14:13:57] <Sh4x> linux and forth :o
11:15:51 <Sh4x> [14:14:09] * thin (~thin@198.162.22.66) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
11:19:30 <thin> does anybody remember how to ssh to sourceforge?
11:22:41 <thin> nevermind
11:22:43 <thin> shell.sf.net
11:22:52 <thin> but there's some firewall blocking me :/
11:25:16 <thin> sh4x: you have to get the right version of nasm, don't get the most recent version, get the version he specifies in the installation help file..
11:25:38 <thin> sh4x: and then make sure you type all the fancy stuff like ./kernel or whatever it was
11:31:05 <thin> install nasm normally
11:31:10 <thin> and then figure out it's path
11:31:25 <thin> and figure out isforth's path..
11:44:59 --- join: futhin (~thin@198.162.22.66) joined #forth
11:44:59 --- quit: thin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:45:39 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit)
11:46:04 --- join: thin (~thin@198.162.22.66) joined #forth
12:02:39 --- join: crc (CharlesChi@AC9D346A.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth
12:03:01 <thin> hey crc :)
12:03:07 <crc> hello
12:03:16 <thin> are you coding anything in forth these days?
12:03:47 <crc> I'm developing updated versions of Tom Novelli's RetroForth
12:05:06 <thin> ah, do you talk to tcn ?
12:05:24 <crc> once in a while
12:06:28 <thin> retroforth is coded in C isn't it ?
12:18:49 <Sh4x> k thanx thin
12:18:57 <Sh4x> ill try some more i guess
12:19:25 <thin> get on irc while in linux next time :P
12:22:42 * PoppaVic sighs
12:22:57 <thin> what's the matter poppavic?
12:23:15 <PoppaVic> hmm? oh.. parsing the dpans<n>.txt files
12:24:04 <PoppaVic> ..and the weather went apeshit - we had ice & sleet, now we've almost 3' of snow on top.
12:40:32 <Sh4x> thin: lol ok im gonna try that challenge right now :P
12:40:33 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:40:44 --- quit: Sh4x ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.65 :: www.XLhost.de )")
12:50:55 --- join: crc (CharlesChi@AC9BE7F1.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth
12:51:05 <crc> sorry, was afk
12:51:37 <crc> RetroForth is coded in assembly and Forth
12:52:32 <thin> ah thank goodness
12:53:14 <thin> what have you done to it?
12:53:19 <thin> does it have internet support yet? ;)
12:53:33 <crc> I've been working on fleshing out the Forth implementation
12:53:43 <crc> working on a debugger and block editor
12:54:10 <crc> and various drivers.
12:54:28 <crc> There's no internet support yet :(
13:15:57 --- join: Sh4x (~root@dsl-132-206.aei.ca) joined #forth
13:16:37 <Sh4x> AH! did it :P  had to configure internet connection
13:18:20 <thin> heh
13:18:25 <thin> yay :D
13:18:39 <Sh4x> next step: dnloading the good nasm
13:27:31 --- quit: crc ("Leaving")
13:33:38 <Sh4x> hmm
13:33:53 <Sh4x> how do you install nasm?
13:37:13 <thin> read the instructions jeez
13:37:53 <thin> talk to me when you have problems, but read the instructions first and try installing it first..
13:39:11 <Sh4x> ya dont take me wrong i did that
13:40:20 <thin> well i can't remember the steps so you have to give me info
13:43:25 <Sh4x> k nm i was just missing some basic ocnepts there
13:43:33 <Sh4x> it says do: $ autoconf
13:43:47 <Sh4x> didnt know u dont write the $
13:43:49 <Speuler> 'evening
13:45:58 <thin> yeah you type autoconf alone
13:46:04 <thin> if that doesn't work you type ./autoconf
13:46:11 <Sh4x> its alright, working
13:46:17 <Sh4x> sorry its just some basic things
13:46:22 <Sh4x> like I said im new to linux
13:46:28 <thin> yeah no big deal
13:46:40 <thin> it's just that i can't help you unless you tell me what's happening
13:46:47 <Sh4x> rgr that
13:46:51 <thin> i don't remember the steps off the top of my head
13:57:22 --- join: crc (CharlesChi@AC9BE7F1.ipt.aol.com) joined #forth
14:17:16 <Sh4x> thin: do u remember where you gotta put the nams-0.98.34 directory?  I mean... im trying to do make linux and it says it cant find the nasm cmd
14:17:47 <Sh4x> i compiled nasm correctly
14:18:00 <thin> where is nasm?
14:18:06 <thin> what's the path
14:18:39 <thin> type: cp -s /blahblahblah/nasm .
14:18:46 <thin> in the isforth directory
14:18:46 <Sh4x> i got /isforth/nasm-0.98.34/nasm
14:19:07 <Sh4x> but my isforth source is in /isforth/isforth1_11b/
14:19:08 <Speuler> PoppaVic ?
14:19:13 <Sh4x> kl
14:19:18 <Sh4x> trying
14:19:23 <thin> okay so type cp -s /isforth/nasm-0.98.34/nasm /isforth/isforth1_11b/.
14:19:28 <thin> it'll make a symbolic link
14:19:36 <thin> to nasm
14:19:40 <PoppaVic> hm?
14:19:47 <Speuler> good evening
14:19:52 <PoppaVic> lo
14:20:14 <Speuler> i have been benchmarking stack cache versus non-stack cache
14:20:30 <Speuler> real    0m6.537s
14:20:30 <Speuler>  (without)   real    0m5.925s
14:20:30 <Speuler>  (with)
14:20:59 <Speuler> that was using dup, drop, 1-
14:21:13 <Speuler> that includes overhead for branch
14:21:23 <Speuler> 5 million iterations
14:21:31 <Speuler> 10% performance difference
14:21:37 <thin> yeah, having a stack cache slows it down
14:21:42 <Speuler> nope
14:21:46 <Speuler> with cache it is quicker
14:21:47 <PoppaVic> bah
14:21:54 <thin> that's why the building your own forth articles say only have TOS
14:22:15 <Speuler> thin: tos in var i call stack cache
14:22:33 <Speuler> that's cached tos versus tos not in var, but on stack
14:22:48 <thin> TOS is never on stack
14:22:50 <thin> TOS is stack
14:22:59 <thin> unless you are talking about system stack?
14:23:08 <thin> stack != system stack
14:23:12 <Speuler> we were wondering wether the c compiler optimizes is out
14:23:29 <Speuler> thin "is never" is bull. it's on you to decide
14:24:04 <thin> if "TOS is on stack" you are talking about system stack
14:24:08 <thin> so say "tos is on system stack"
14:24:12 <thin> be specific
14:24:26 <Speuler> there's the "put tos in a var/register" and the "leave tos in mem, address by stack pointer"
14:24:56 <Speuler> thin: PoppaVic knows what i was talking about
14:25:09 <PoppaVic> I still say it's a waste of time.
14:25:50 <Speuler> PoppaVic: hmm. measurement shows that tos not stacked is a waste time (of cpu time)
14:26:04 <Speuler> tos not cached
14:26:08 <Speuler> i mean to say
14:26:23 <PoppaVic> whatever floats your boat <shrug>
14:26:49 <Speuler> not caching it would mean, making it deliberately slower than necessary
14:27:20 <Speuler> what are the advantages of not caching tos ?
14:29:31 <Speuler> oh, there's one point: the executable gets bigger. 7757 without, 7834 with
14:30:16 <Speuler> that's with 12 primitives, using or not using it
14:30:50 <thin> what are you doing speuler?
14:30:53 <thin> why are you messing with c?
14:31:00 <Speuler> that's 6.5 bytes per primitive
14:31:01 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.38) joined #forth
14:31:05 <PoppaVic> because it gets the job done.
14:31:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:31:15 <PoppaVic> lo
14:31:22 <TheBlueWizard> hiya PoppaVic
14:31:44 <mur> TBW
14:31:46 <Speuler> why shouldn't cached tos not get the job done ?
14:31:47 <mur> show me spell
14:32:10 <TheBlueWizard> hiya mur :)
14:32:18 <Speuler> hi tbw
14:32:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Speuler
14:32:38 <Speuler> thin: kernel for openbios
14:33:00 <Speuler> thin: supposed to be portable to big number of different systems
14:33:32 <Speuler> thin: asm just wouldn't cut it for this app
14:33:42 <thin> heh, i tried to tell stepan to code openbios in forth
14:33:51 <thin> asm might not cut it, but forth would
14:34:07 <thin> it would be easy to target compile from whatever forth you choosed..
14:34:30 <Speuler> you still 'd need knowledge of cpu in meta compiler
14:34:55 <thin> sure
14:34:57 <Speuler> relying on the c compiler takes that away from you
14:35:07 <thin> you don't need that much knowledge
14:35:15 <thin> it's pretty easy to write up an assembler
14:35:23 <Speuler> means, new targets run quicker, provided c compiler available
14:35:36 <thin> runs quicker? lies
14:35:38 <Speuler> thin: yes. i think i440r is still busy with it
14:36:00 <Speuler> means, new targets will have running code quicker, provided c compiler available
14:36:22 <thin> speuler: i'm not talking about i440r's assembler
14:36:26 <Speuler> thin: don't misinterpret me
14:36:47 <thin> there's quite a few assemblers for forth out there and they're all invariably only 2-3 blocks of code
14:36:59 <thin> maybe a few more blocks..
14:37:07 <Speuler> thin: for any processor openbios is about to traget ?
14:37:09 <Speuler> target ?
14:37:15 <Speuler> or just x86 ?
14:37:53 <Speuler> are we going to rewrite the cpu-specific part every time when a new cpu is targeted ?
14:37:58 <thin> an 386 assembler = 2 blocks of code.  doesn't take long to code up the assembler
14:38:02 <Speuler> who is going to do that ??
14:38:15 <thin> well someone is writing up the cpu-specific part for C everytime a new cpu comes out
14:38:20 <Speuler> thin: openbios is not meant to run on pc alone
14:38:38 <Speuler> thin: as far there is no cpu-specific code
14:38:44 <Speuler> it just runs through the compiler
14:39:22 <Speuler> we COULD add cpu=-specific code, just as handicap
14:39:34 <Speuler> but nobody has that intention
14:40:05 <Speuler> thin: openbios is developed right now on different cpus
14:40:20 <Speuler> would be a bad start, having to support a number of codebases at this point already
14:40:23 <thin> you could still code it all in forth and then use a forth to C converter ;)
14:40:35 <thin> forth to c compiler
14:40:51 <Speuler> can still be done later on
14:40:54 <Speuler> no need to do that now
14:41:55 <Speuler> maybe use the c compiled kernel to compile the forth source for the definitive kernel, if that's really necessary
14:43:10 <Speuler> and, what's the advantage of translating forth to c, the run it through the compiler, if the c-written kernel would compile anyway ?
14:43:22 <Speuler> just style ?
14:43:49 <thin> dunno, i can only imagine what a mess the C code is
14:44:19 <Speuler> kernel aims to be minimal
14:44:37 <Speuler> even, say, (+loop) runtime is coded high-level right now
14:45:02 <Speuler> which does not exactly improve speed
14:45:27 <Speuler> but that can be changed easily. doesn't effect rest of the system
14:45:39 <Speuler> where against the stack-cache issue needs to be decided very early
14:45:50 <Speuler> that would affect all primitive4s
14:46:00 <Speuler> is easy to put that in in an early stage
14:46:23 <Speuler> but quite a lot of work, converting a system, built for non-cached stack later on
14:46:29 <thin> how many primitives are there? how many words are there?
14:47:36 <Speuler> state last base do?branch dobranch dodoes here! here execute key ?key emit fill move not sp@ u< u> < > = l! w! c! +! 2! ! l@ w@ c@ 2@ @ um/mod um* m* d- d+ invert xor or and >>a rshift lshift bounds min max negate abs u/mod /mod mod / u* * - + rdepth! rdepth depth! depth r@ r> >r 2swap swap -rot rot roll nip 2drop drop pick 2over over ?dup 2dup dup
14:47:44 <Speuler> primitives. some can be thrown out
14:47:57 <Speuler> about thrice as many hi-level words
14:48:29 <Speuler>  words lfa2name catch (throw0) throw0 throw exception catchframe type lcc upc count lbflips lwflips wbflips erase blank on off comp <w@ between within u>= u<= 0>= 0> 0<> 0< 0<= 0= >= <= cells chars cell+ char+ aligned na1+ la1+ wa1+ ca1+ na+ la+ wa+ ca+ /n* /l* /w* /c* lbflip lwflip wbflip bljoin wljoin bwjoin lbsplit wbsplit lwsplit s>d 2/ u2/ 2* >> << bounds even 2- 2+ 1- 1+ */mod */ 2rot 3drop clear 3dup tuck #out #line spaces space cr l
14:48:29 <Speuler> d carret bs bell bl false true exit endof of endcase case repeat while until again begin resolve-dest loop +loop (+loop) j i dofinish-loop do+loop ?do do?do do dodo else then if resolve-orig <> l, w, c, , allot noop ] [ 'lit compile-only immediate octal hex decimal
14:49:32 <thin> is openbios supposed to be ans compatible?
14:49:53 <Speuler> yes
14:50:36 <thin> bah
14:50:38 <thin> :)
14:50:49 <thin> way too many words too :P
14:52:22 <Speuler> complain to sun microsystems
14:53:10 <Speuler> still fewer words than windows API calls 
14:53:26 <Speuler> do something against that if you care
14:53:55 <thin> why is openbios being made?
14:54:06 <thin> sun microsystems already has a forth bios right ?
14:54:13 <Speuler> right
14:54:19 <TheBlueWizard> if openbios is rommed, you'd like to maximize the use of the rom space there
14:54:50 <thin> couldn't you code openbios using suns
14:54:55 <thin> couldn't you code openbios using sun's bios ?
14:54:59 <Speuler> not sure. openbios is supposed to be usable on small devices too
14:55:06 <thin> does sun's bios compile?
14:55:20 <Speuler> openfirmware is not free. this must be a clean-rom implementation
14:55:27 <Speuler> room
14:55:41 <Speuler> thin: yes, is full forth underneath
14:56:01 <thin> you can still bootstrap a free forth off a non-free forth
14:56:07 <Speuler> thin: press stop-a, and the forth prompt pops up
14:56:45 <Speuler> thin: as it would be such a problem to boot-strap a forth, so we would be required to start with a commercial inmplementation
14:57:12 <thin> ??
14:57:27 <thin> openbios is basically a replacement for openfirmware ?
14:57:35 <Speuler> right
14:57:43 <thin> openbios is to be compilable to all the same processors that openfirmware runs on?
14:57:59 <Speuler> probably. and more
14:58:33 <thin> writing a forth in a forth is very easy.. i.e. bootstrapping a forth from openfirmware would be very easy..
14:58:36 <Speuler> we might skip ENIAC though
14:58:53 <thin> you're being funny?
14:58:56 <Speuler> thin: how would you port that forth-written forth to a new cpu ?
14:59:04 <Speuler> thin: i try to
14:59:14 <thin> you don't use emoticons though
14:59:30 <Speuler> oh. i do
14:59:37 <Speuler> maybe too often, even
14:59:45 <thin> well the forth-written forth would be available for all processors that openfirmware is available for
14:59:58 <Speuler> hehehe
14:59:59 <thin> lies. i use emoticons almost every line ;)
15:00:21 <Speuler> say i want to have openbios on a cellphone
15:00:29 <thin> i guess openbios wants to target more cpus than openfirmware
15:00:35 <Speuler> should i ask sun to port openfirmware to the cellphone first ?
15:01:02 <thin> what cpu do you think your cellphone has?
15:01:04 <Speuler> now i'd like to use it for a prototype system, no sw available yet
15:01:17 <Speuler> probably siemens c166/167
15:01:29 <Speuler> or ARM
15:01:59 <Speuler> that prototype may be reality soon
15:02:16 <Speuler> possible startin on a project to develop bios 
15:02:39 <Speuler> depending on the state of openbios, i might consider using it
15:03:06 <Speuler> linux port to that system may be possible
15:03:14 <Speuler> linux has openfirmware support
15:03:23 <Speuler> with openbios, port may get easier
15:03:45 <Speuler> they use c there
15:04:16 <Speuler> i oculd now opt for running the c kernel of openbios through the compiler
15:04:26 --- quit: Sh4x ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4")
15:04:33 <Speuler> or i may opt to follow one of your recommendations
15:04:33 <thin> so you want a bios for your cellphone? what about the cellphone's os ?
15:04:42 <Speuler> which one, would you think, should i follow ?
15:04:48 <Speuler> asking sun to port openfirmware ?
15:04:52 <thin> heh
15:05:00 <thin> don't be sarcastic :P
15:05:12 <Speuler> cellphones: epoc, linux, some others
15:05:56 <Speuler> you proposed the alternatives, you deserve to be ridiculed :)
15:06:22 <Speuler> that project i mentioned is not a cellphone
15:07:00 <thin> sure, but i was talking about within the scope of "openbios is to replace openfirmware"  not "and to be targettable to many other cpus"
15:07:25 <Speuler> i think we said "compatible with"
15:07:37 <Speuler> not "runs only on systems running openfirmware"
15:07:48 <thin> sure, that is clear now
15:08:39 <Speuler> i'm scared of the effort to write cpu support for any new platform
15:08:54 <Speuler> gives you potentially many different versions of the same thing
15:09:05 <Speuler> going to be fun to maintain that
15:09:13 <thin> are you using your forthcgi to generate the page at forthfreak.net ?
15:09:22 <Speuler> yes
15:09:39 <Speuler> not much dynamic content there
15:09:46 <Speuler> but saved me coding html :)
15:09:54 <thin> what is it running on? gforth?
15:10:12 <Speuler> i did run it on gforth, but shouldn't be specific
15:10:13 --- quit: mur ("MUR!")
15:10:46 <Speuler> will have to continue with forthcgi a bit
15:10:54 <Speuler> is more or less half done
15:11:03 <Speuler> has some potential
15:11:05 <thin> do you have any forthchips?
15:11:11 <Speuler> yes
15:11:15 <Speuler> not many anymore
15:11:19 <Speuler> psc1000
15:11:26 <Speuler> had novix before
15:11:34 <Speuler> some years ago already
15:11:38 <Speuler> wanted f21
15:11:52 <Speuler> somewhat interested in x25
15:13:35 <Speuler> why do you ask ?
15:13:59 <thin> you have a psc1000 right now?
15:14:43 <Speuler> "right now" means somewhere. can't find it at the moment :)
15:15:08 <Speuler> have moved my stuff from the netherlands to germany
15:15:14 <Speuler> not everything unpacked yet
15:15:28 <thin> did you code any forth for it?
15:15:33 <thin> hook it up to anything?
15:15:44 <Speuler> will move again in short time
15:15:48 <Robert> Morning, people.
15:15:55 <Speuler> yes. to power supply, rs232
15:15:59 <Speuler> :)
15:16:15 <Speuler> morning robert
15:16:19 <Speuler> brb
15:22:50 <PoppaVic> hi robert
15:22:52 <Speuler> b
15:23:53 <Speuler> thin: no. came with forth in rom. f83. no need seen yet to replace it
15:24:04 <Speuler> in flash, actually
15:24:22 <Speuler> has two flashs, and boot selector
15:25:05 <Speuler> i.e. easy to boot from 2nd, modified system, w/o risking not being able to start in case 2nd system is faulty
15:25:37 <Robert> PoppaVic, Speuler.. :)
15:26:50 <PoppaVic> hah.. (parsing works better when it's the right file!)
15:28:33 <Speuler> like "eating works better if you shove it into the right orifice" ?
15:29:22 <thin> i thought of something really gross to say to that
15:29:31 <thin> but i won't :/
15:30:11 <PoppaVic> gigo, I guess..
15:30:26 <Speuler> mental image of spoon stickin' out'f your ear ?
15:30:28 * PoppaVic foolishly expected that mozilla had exlated properly..
15:30:40 <PoppaVic> xlated, two
15:38:28 <thin> yes
16:03:47 --- join: jdamisch (jdamisch@207.191.240.103) joined #forth
16:03:59 <jdamisch> hi
16:04:00 <thin> welcome jdamisch :)
16:04:06 <jdamisch> :)
16:04:17 <thin> as you can see there's many more ppl ;)
16:04:20 <jdamisch> i'll write that one down
16:04:27 <jdamisch> ok
16:04:29 <thin> check out the website too
16:04:33 <thin> http://forth.tech.nu
16:04:46 <thin> it's new, i put it up a few days ago and i'm still working on it
16:05:14 <jdamisch> cool
16:05:33 <jdamisch> i used to have a very large forth link repository on memnonio.com, but that was atleast a year ago
16:06:27 <Robert> Hi jdamisch 
16:06:38 <jdamisch> i used a forth script to generate the site with, but even that become unweildly after awhile
16:06:42 <Robert> Welcome :)
16:06:51 <jdamisch> thanks
16:07:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya jdamisch
16:07:34 <Robert> Oh, hello to you too TheBlueWizard 
16:07:39 <jdamisch> what level are you Blue Wizard?
16:07:48 <jdamisch> remember, don't shoot food
16:08:47 <thin> heh :)
16:08:57 <TheBlueWizard> talking in AD&D terminology?
16:09:04 <jdamisch> its a quote from an old Atari game called Gauntlet
16:09:30 <jdamisch> mixing up various fantasy game terminologies
16:09:34 <jdamisch> how many gamers are here?
16:09:42 <jdamisch> video or paper?
16:09:53 <Robert> I've never even seen an Atari.
16:10:08 <thin> i've never seen you either
16:10:11 <Robert> They were made long before I was born, heh. And I haven't got my hands on a used one yet
16:10:31 <jdamisch> it was an arcade game first, and then translated to various home systems
16:10:51 <jdamisch> you can pick up an emulator and a rom if you don't mind a little bit of jaywalking
16:11:05 <thin> i want to get my grubby hands on two things: 1) Corolla GTS (years 1985 to 1987 are fine) 2) Canon Cat
16:11:06 <Robert> That's no fun...
16:11:11 <jdamisch> there is also an updated verion for modern game consoles, like GameCube and Dreamcast
16:11:12 * Robert pets his NES
16:11:16 <Robert> Modern?
16:11:25 <Robert> Nintendo Entertainment Station is modern.
16:11:42 <Robert> All those funny games, Super Mario Bros...
16:11:44 <jdamisch> NES is 8bit
16:11:48 <thin> funny?
16:11:51 <thin> you mean FUN!
16:11:57 <thin> super mario bros rox0rs!!
16:12:03 <Robert> thin: :/
16:12:06 <Robert> jdamisch: Yes.
16:12:13 <thin> and so did the FORTH BIOS that runs on NES!
16:12:15 <thin> ;)
16:12:18 <Robert> thin: My english does not rox0rs
16:12:20 <jdamisch> there was a gauntlet for 8bit nintendo as well
16:12:38 <Robert> OK. I hated most of the games for it anyway.
16:12:47 <Robert> But there were a few highlightd
16:12:48 <Robert> s
16:12:49 <jdamisch> plejeble, mia esperanto estas e^c tre malbona
16:12:56 <jdamisch> proably my esperanto is even worse
16:13:16 <jdamisch> probably
16:13:16 <Robert> I don't know any Esperanto, sorry
16:13:26 <jdamisch> no problem
16:13:59 <jdamisch> i know they had a version of gauntlet for NES, but i'm not sure how good it was
16:14:36 <jdamisch> the NES has a FORTH BIOS?  is that true?
16:14:39 <thin> what about lojban?
16:14:42 <thin> no i was joking
16:14:54 * PoppaVic just.. watches.
16:15:10 <jdamisch> VIC20!
16:15:15 * thin thinks "good for poppavic"
16:16:39 * PoppaVic . o O {..watches the sarcasm drift by.. }
16:17:39 * TheBlueWizard knows a bit of Esperanto, and very bit of Lojban
16:17:52 <jdamisch> language of logic
16:17:58 <jdamisch> i know no logban
16:18:01 <PoppaVic> no loglan, eh?
16:18:11 <jdamisch> how do you say "I love Forth" in Lojban?
16:18:22 <thin> lojban came after loglan
16:18:28 <TheBlueWizard> jdamisch: to answer your question, in AD&D terminology, mine is a dual classed wizard/psionicist, 15/16
16:18:30 <jdamisch> oh
16:18:38 <jdamisch> :^)
16:18:56 <jdamisch> i haven't played in years, but had some fun, probably never made it past 5
16:19:03 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:19:05 <jdamisch> also played some Call of Cthulu
16:19:06 <TheBlueWizard> thin is correct re: loglan and lojban
16:20:03 --- join: Speuler (~semtex@mnch-d9ba43fa.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
16:20:29 * thin is patient.  He will bide his time waiting for poppavic to make a mistake and then boom! banned and kicked from the channel ;)
16:21:00 <TheBlueWizard> lol
16:21:03 <PoppaVic> I'm worried ;-)
16:21:20 <jdamisch> the sweat pours off of his face
16:21:47 <TheBlueWizard> never had played Call of Cthulhu...though I know of Lovecraft's novels (even read a few of them)
16:22:19 <jdamisch> its the only RPG in the known world where consistanly the best of the 57 plans is to run like your butts on fire
16:22:57 <jdamisch> the characters are all pipsqueaks, and the monsters and powerful
16:23:26 <jdamisch> if you survive, only just survive, you consider it a successful mission
16:23:53 <thin> i like muds
16:24:02 <thin> i have a project to code a forth mud
16:24:26 <thin> but it's dead in the water
16:24:29 <jdamisch> i've never tried a mud, but have tried some of the rouge like games
16:24:30 <thin> stinking up the world
16:24:35 <jdamisch> Forth MUD!!!!
16:24:41 <jdamisch> time to get muddy
16:24:42 <thin> :D
16:24:54 <thin> well i'm too lazy to get it started
16:24:59 <jdamisch> time to compost it?
16:25:13 <thin> i figure if it was started, if a minimal kernel was up and running, i would be able to go from there
16:25:13 <jdamisch> that would make a phat open source project imo
16:25:17 <TheBlueWizard> jdamisch: heh re: surviving the Lovecraftian campaign
16:25:33 <thin> jdamisch: what forths do you use?
16:25:34 <jdamisch> first thing we need is TCP/IP component
16:25:36 <jdamisch> i'd think
16:25:39 <thin> yep
16:25:44 <jdamisch> only just Win32Forth at the moment
16:25:57 <jdamisch> it doesn't come with a TCP/IP interface does it?
16:26:07 <jdamisch> I'm using a very old version of Win32forth
16:26:11 <thin> i thought it might, but maybe i'm thinking of swiftforth
16:26:11 <jdamisch> never bothered to upgrade
16:26:27 <jdamisch> swiftforth isn't public domain
16:26:40 <thin> no but the demo is downloadable
16:26:43 <jdamisch> Elizabeth might not mind if you asked in the right way though, it might be better publicity for here
16:26:47 <jdamisch> yes it it
16:27:11 <thin> i'm mostly bidding my time waiting for isforth to become the ultimate forth :)
16:27:31 <thin> isforth is a "true" forth.  coded in asm, for linux
16:27:40 <thin> it supports internet right now
16:27:42 <jdamisch> it seems like a TCP/IP interface should be an included extension, maybe next project heh?
16:28:11 <jdamisch> i'd like to play in windows
16:28:19 <jdamisch> i wonder if it could be made cross platform
16:29:25 <thin> isforth becomes metacompilable, i might consider porting it to windows (or bugging someone to do it)
16:29:39 <jdamisch> VFX?
16:29:52 <thin> VFX?
16:29:56 <jdamisch> if it isn't started yet, then it should be developed concurently 
16:30:04 <thin> what's VFx?
16:30:09 <jdamisch> its another comercial forth for Windows
16:30:19 <jdamisch> http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk/pfwvfx.htm
16:30:35 <jdamisch> i haven't tried it but have heard good things about it
16:30:44 <thin> iForth seems good
16:30:52 <thin> and it runs on windows, linux, dos
16:30:52 <jdamisch> no need to port
16:31:15 <jdamisch> it doesn't need to metacompile to start the game
16:31:49 <jdamisch> it should not need a server, but just run with interconnected CPUs
16:32:19 <jdamisch> F.A.D   Forth abUser Dungeon
16:32:35 <jdamisch> F.A.D   Forth Abuser Dungeon
16:33:00 <jdamisch> the graphics can totally suck
16:33:07 <jdamisch> i don't care, i just need gameplay
16:33:17 <thin> reprogrammable gameplay?! ;)
16:33:27 <jdamisch> random everything
16:33:39 <jdamisch> dripping with goo
16:33:40 <thin> i like multi-user games
16:33:47 <thin> it's way more fun with people
16:34:03 <jdamisch> i used to play Everquest, but i drifted away from it
16:34:33 <jdamisch> then we could just all hang out in the tavern and drink rootbeer and chat like we are now, but just not in IRC, in the game
16:34:39 <thin> i stopped playing games
16:34:50 <jdamisch> hmm
16:34:53 <thin> i stopped ircing (more or less)
16:34:59 <thin> i only read web comics now :D
16:35:16 <TheBlueWizard> heh
16:35:37 <thin> actually what i want to see is Forth Collaborative Environment
16:35:48 <jdamisch> 1 copper rootbeer cost !
16:35:54 <thin> where people can get together "in forth" and chat & code
16:36:04 <jdamisch> that would be fun
16:36:15 <jdamisch> with version control i guess
16:36:23 <thin> yep
16:36:34 <Robert> Heh. I thought that was called "screen" ;)
16:36:36 <thin> and multi-user editor
16:36:42 <jdamisch> 5 gold light-heal spell cost !
16:36:57 <thin> booo
16:37:03 <thin> you have to use CREATE DOES>
16:37:16 <thin> 5 gold COST light-heal
16:37:19 <jdamisch> monster-list random-pick player attack
16:37:38 <jdamisch> ok
16:37:59 <thin> 1 copper COST rootbeer
16:38:09 <thin> : copper ;
16:38:10 <thin> : gold 1000 ;
16:38:20 <thin> : gold 1000 * ;
16:38:53 <TheBlueWizard> :)
16:38:53 <jdamisch> chest explode
16:39:36 <jdamisch> first thing would be to think out how to coordinate the project
16:39:40 <thin> : l look ;
16:39:57 <thin> : look getroomdescription getitems showprompt ;
16:40:11 <thin> : n north ;    : north incrementy ;
16:40:14 <thin> etc :D
16:40:21 <thin> easy to code!
16:40:26 <jdamisch> totally doable
16:40:31 <thin> but i'm too lazy to do the hard stuff
16:40:33 <thin> the internet
16:40:35 <thin> and database
16:40:38 <thin> and multi-user
16:40:42 <thin> bah
16:40:45 <jdamisch> but i'm not sure how to set up multiplayer networking 
16:41:25 <jdamisch> the database can just be forth words, i don't think you would want relational capabilites, overkill
16:42:04 <TheBlueWizard> um...better:   : look current-room @ showdescription showitems ; --- showprompt should be in the game-interpreter loop
16:42:07 <jdamisch> database a nonproblem
16:42:29 <jdamisch> there should be an object list
16:42:38 <thin> i need to store both a map and a list of all the objects (which includes players)
16:42:46 <thin> furthermore, the rooms don't exist
16:42:57 <jdamisch> its a huge array with each cell pointing to an object in the game
16:43:01 <thin> they are dynamically generated including their descriptions
16:43:18 <jdamisch> i like the idea of both order and chaod
16:43:20 <jdamisch> i like the idea of both order and chaos
16:43:21 <thin> their descriptions are generated from the landmarks in the area (based on the map) and the objects & players in the area
16:43:41 <jdamisch> the levels can be generated randomly, from prestored rooms, or a combination of the two
16:43:49 <jdamisch> so you can have a city level which doesnt' change
16:44:08 <jdamisch> and a chaos zone where everytime you go into another part of the dungeon, it generates a new maze
16:44:45 <jdamisch> is this going to be overhead like Rouge, or descrpitive like Zork
16:45:30 <thin> i've already designed the mud
16:45:36 <thin> it's not like that :P
16:46:13 <jdamisch> can you find a bat-turd and eat it?  :^O
16:47:27 <thin> yep
16:47:35 <thin> and you can bush-whack a new trail
16:47:59 <jdamisch> what is the technology level?
16:48:02 <thin> and it'll regrow back if it's not used anymore. etc
16:48:11 <thin> no, technology is theme related
16:48:11 <jdamisch> cool
16:48:16 <thin> i haven't designed the theme yet
16:48:23 <jdamisch> ok
16:48:39 <thin> the important thing is that the room descriptions are dynamically generated
16:48:48 <thin> this gives a lot of flexibility
16:48:59 <thin> allowing you to create new roads, build houses, tear them down, etc
16:49:15 <jdamisch> non-random-game blah = . -1
16:49:32 <thin> i'm interested in consistency(realism)
16:49:52 <thin> but whoever downloaded the forthmud and installed it could take it in whatever direction they wanted
16:49:59 <thin> and easily recode it
16:50:04 <thin> WHILE it is running
16:50:05 <TheBlueWizard> kudzu growth? :)
16:50:15 <jdamisch> nice
16:50:17 <thin> kudzu?
16:50:23 <jdamisch> fast growing plant
16:51:05 <jdamisch> in my own game design, i was going to let the endprogrammer add or take out classes, alignments, monsters, traps, everything!
16:51:33 <jdamisch> you shouldn't need to be a 50th level coder to change the game around
16:52:45 <jdamisch> i could ask around a bit to see what i can come up with as far as online multiplayer capability goes
16:53:03 <jdamisch> i have so many pokers in the fire now though :^)
16:53:14 <thin> i have more than u
16:53:17 <thin> and i don't move them
16:53:18 <TheBlueWizard> thin: kudzu is a plant that is native to Japan, and is a plague in the South.  It is incredibly hard to eradicate.  My dad once told me how he tried to kill it by setting it on fire, then dug it up and burn it and even heat up the surrounding soil to a high temperature.  One year later, it is back.
16:53:31 <thin> ouch
16:54:19 <jdamisch> i was going to create a new Forth baised web site builder helper but i'm lazyer than you are thin
16:54:26 <TheBlueWizard> worse than ouch...it is a climbing vine, and it envelops practically anything...trees, phone lines, houses, whatever
16:54:36 <thin> yay!
16:54:45 <jdamisch> mother natures revenge?
16:54:58 <thin> jdamisch: nope, i'm lazier than you! :D
16:55:12 <thin> except for the fact i got off my arse and put up a website ;)
16:55:18 <thin> but wait
16:55:22 <TheBlueWizard> jdamisch: no...man's idiocy...see, it is not native to Americas...no natural enemies, see?
16:55:25 <thin> you had your website up a long time ago
16:56:08 <jdamisch> in a few hours i'll start fleshing out my helper-builder then, if i can kickmyself in the arse hard enough :^)
16:56:30 <jdamisch> i finally got my domain up on a server atleast
16:56:46 <jdamisch> i could take an hour and put the forth section of my site back up
16:57:01 <jdamisch> i still have the old builder program, but stripped out the rest of the site from the script
16:57:04 <jdamisch> not the forth stuff though
16:57:13 <jdamisch> the forth section is on my HD now
16:57:23 <jdamisch> www.memnonio.com
16:57:56 <jdamisch> the only thing up now is  www.memnono.com/vmu.html
16:59:01 <jdamisch> who can tell me what a VMU is?
17:00:07 <jdamisch> its Virtual Memory Unit, a save card for a Sega Dreamcast which happens to have a cruddy LCD screen 1k of RAM and a pizo speaker.
17:00:37 <jdamisch> i wrote a teaspoon of asm for it, and then downloaded it to the VMU through the modem built into the Dreamcast
17:00:57 <thin> ah i like that recipe
17:01:04 <thin> 1 teaspon of asm
17:01:08 <thin> 4 tablespoons of forth
17:01:11 <jdamisch> some of that 1k of ram is used for registers, tight space for a d00d like me
17:01:13 <thin> some sugar
17:01:21 <thin> bake at 400 F
17:01:39 <thin> let cook for 15 minutes, serve with supper
17:01:46 <jdamisch> it would be 2 orders of magnitude more satisfying to just code in Forth on something with more capabilites
17:03:25 <jdamisch> i have a little motivation now
17:04:42 <jdamisch> brb
17:05:57 <jdamisch> anyway
17:08:49 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all!
17:09:13 --- quit: TheBlueWizard ("Leaving")
17:09:58 <jdamisch> if there was a crossplatform rpg project, then the tcp/ip component would have to be system dependent anyway, and would vary from platform to playform, but the various versions of the component would all have identical programmer interfaces
17:10:22 <jdamisch> like all the same words with all the same stack effects
17:11:51 <jdamisch> one would need to isolate any system dependent code into separate components and do this
17:12:29 <thin> ARGH!!! it's a frickin pain in the ass to write a good introduction to forth :/
17:12:30 <jdamisch> then various guys could work on a particular version of a component for a particular platform
17:12:52 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
17:13:05 <jdamisch> have you seen Starting Forth?
17:13:11 <jdamisch> it has one
17:13:39 --- topic: set to 'the #forth website http://forth.tech.nu - write up articles for the site | native x86 linux forth http://isforth.clss.net' by thin
17:13:45 --- mode: thin set -o thin
17:14:15 <thin> i want an introduction to forth for the site..
17:14:18 <jdamisch> i'll just get memnonio back up and you can link to it, that'll be my contribution
17:14:52 <jdamisch> i can go scrounge up all of the introductions that other people have written and then make a list of them on the site
17:15:36 <thin> i have a list
17:15:38 <thin> no worries
17:15:47 <thin> i just don't want to link to everyone's intro
17:16:18 <jdamisch> oh
17:16:32 <jdamisch> i will link you thin
17:16:39 <jdamisch> like it or not :^)
17:16:45 <jdamisch> you can't stop me
17:17:04 <thin> :)
17:18:45 <jdamisch> i have a question
17:19:04 <thin> ?
17:19:13 <jdamisch> what does the word "Taffer" mean?
17:19:28 <thin> no idea, sounds like a british english word
17:19:37 <jdamisch> ok, never mind
17:19:44 <thin> maybe not
17:19:50 <thin> it's not in the dictionary.com
17:20:12 <jdamisch> what about the pictionary.com
17:20:15 <thin> maybe it's a name
17:20:22 <jdamisch> could be
17:20:45 --- quit: crc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:24:36 <jdamisch> if i ever write a Forth RPG, it'll compile on any ANS Forth worthy of the name, but the system dependent components would need to be rewritten for each system it runs on
17:24:54 * thin doesn't care about ANS
17:25:02 <jdamisch> theoretically
17:25:31 <jdamisch> to me it can be ANS or not, as long as it's a Forth
17:25:39 <jdamisch> like... 2 stacks.... dictionarys... you know
17:25:49 <jdamisch> like... 2 stacks.... dictionary... you know
17:26:53 <jdamisch> I'm going to go get my site up there,  i can't think of much to talk about right now
17:27:00 <jdamisch> I'll be back here in a few hours, ok
17:27:08 <thin> "the ANS Forth standard does not describe Forth, but a language with the same name" -- Chuck Moore
17:28:09 <jdamisch> jdamisch can write Forth programs in ANS reguardless if it is a real Forth or not
17:28:25 <jdamisch> "I'll Be Back"  Arnold Schwartzenagger
17:28:26 --- quit: jdamisch ()
17:35:40 --- quit: thin ("thin - what we want the interface layer to be")
17:43:15 <PoppaVic> Heh.. thing is working.. Scarey shit..
18:09:35 --- join: jdamisch (jdamisch@207.191.240.103) joined #forth
18:09:46 <jdamisch> hi
18:09:57 <jdamisch> well....its up
18:09:57 <PoppaVic> lo
18:10:09 <jdamisch> http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html
18:10:20 <PoppaVic> loading..
18:10:52 <jdamisch> not all of the external links will work, its been awhile from the last time i've maintained the links
18:10:58 <PoppaVic> I kinda' like the "forth" font ;-)
18:11:09 <jdamisch> also, the files inside of my-code section are not up yet
18:11:13 <jdamisch> but there you go
18:11:19 <jdamisch> thanks for the compliment
18:11:55 <PoppaVic> I often wish I had some nice fonts like that.. I find fonts - install & maintain - to be a royal pain worth always avoiding.
18:12:06 <jdamisch> i didn't use a font
18:12:18 <jdamisch> i used a paint program 
18:12:19 <PoppaVic> I'm sure it's just an image - but..
18:12:35 <jdamisch> then i wrote some text with the font in the paint program, and then made little gifs out of that
18:12:48 <jdamisch> its a common font
18:13:16 * PoppaVic keeps beating his dpans primgen..
18:14:27 <jdamisch> don't beat it too hard, it might break :^)
18:14:44 <PoppaVic> actually, it's working great - now.
18:14:53 <PoppaVic> ..just adding some details.
18:15:03 <jdamisch> ok
18:15:24 <jdamisch> i need to mess with the source code to get the source code file example to download
18:15:31 <jdamisch> i can probably have that done in awhile
18:15:33 <PoppaVic> I want comments where they belong.. And, protecting those was a hassle, too ;-)
18:15:45 <jdamisch> i think i'll add some text to the what's new section
18:18:02 <Speuler> jdamisch: i can offer you http://www.forthfreak.net/stringstack for your code share
18:18:48 <jdamisch> i'll link it in
18:19:14 <jdamisch> bringing up site now
18:20:10 <Speuler> your tool belt link is broken
18:20:20 <jdamisch> i think i knew that
18:20:25 <jdamisch> like i said
18:20:31 <jdamisch> it'll take awhile to clean up
18:20:48 <jdamisch> i just wanted to get it from my HD to my server so i could start something out
18:21:20 <jdamisch> reload the codeshare page now
18:21:30 <jdamisch> just do it
18:21:43 <Speuler> thanks
18:21:48 <jdamisch> :^)
18:25:37 <Speuler> lemme put down your email address in case something happens to that link
18:26:27 <jdamisch> there are mail buttons all over my site
18:26:42 <jdamisch> i will need to start checking my site email then as i see it
18:34:12 <jdamisch> i'll just start cleaning links tonight.... i was going to play some games, but that's ok
18:34:18 * PoppaVic titters at a working program..
18:34:18 <jdamisch> if you got links GIMMIE
18:36:13 <Klaw> http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf11/sf11.html
18:36:22 <Klaw> that's a pretty good tutorial for a just past novice.
18:36:27 <Speuler> don't see taygeta on your page
18:36:27 <Klaw> passed
18:36:37 <Speuler> http://www.taygeta.com/skip.html
18:37:09 <Speuler> seen
18:37:10 <Speuler> ok
18:38:34 <jdamisch> going to the first link you gave me now
18:41:52 <jdamisch> that looked like it was just maybe part of a larger tutorial, i'm just checking the head link to make sure
18:42:46 <jdamisch> i see chapter 11 & 12 listed at the head page
18:43:42 <jdamisch> i guess i'll just put them both in
18:43:50 <jdamisch> where are the rest of the chapters?
18:44:45 <jdamisch> problem with BEGINNERS catagory is that there are many different kinds of beginners at different stages of learning, but i'll do it anyway
18:48:05 <jdamisch> its up
18:49:13 <jdamisch> they have a link there for calling VB from iForth.  Probably it's possiable to call anything from anything else
18:49:22 <jdamisch> but the question is, how hard is that
18:50:15 <jdamisch> i need to link our buddy thin
18:51:12 <Speuler> hmmm.
18:51:29 <Speuler> searching google for forth stringstack leads to bashforth ...
18:51:38 <Speuler> didn't quite expect that ...
18:52:45 <jdamisch> bashforth in systems now
18:53:21 <Speuler> jdamisch: not sure whether that's a good thing for codeshare. is a forth interpreter, not forth source
18:53:33 <Speuler> forth interpreter written in bash
18:53:50 <jdamisch> in SYSTEMS directory, not CODESHARE directory
18:53:56 <Speuler> ah
18:54:11 <Speuler> better
18:55:01 <jdamisch> the #forth site is primarily for a chat channel
18:55:52 <jdamisch> i should add a catagory for chat channels and such
18:58:43 <Speuler> good idea
18:59:00 <jdamisch> trying now
19:02:03 <Speuler> here's another chat:  http://www.delosoft.com/fs.exe?action=index.f&dir=/forums/forth
19:02:18 <Speuler> very low traffic btw
19:03:31 <Speuler> about 1 message per month :)
19:03:44 <jdamisch> i put in the chat section
19:03:55 <jdamisch> but i need to create custom gifs for the title pages
19:04:00 <jdamisch> for the page titles i mean
19:04:24 <jdamisch> chat is not in alphabetical order
19:04:28 <jdamisch> !!!!
19:07:54 <jdamisch> to me the delsoft site that you gave me is a message board and not a chat channel, so it goes in MESSAGE-BASES
19:08:14 <Speuler> right
19:10:11 <jdamisch> done
19:13:27 <jdamisch> you can now take a look at the Dragon Dice program in the MY CODE section
19:14:07 <jdamisch> no wait 
19:15:35 <jdamisch> now it does
19:17:20 <jdamisch> i feel like going to get a snack and then comming back to do this some more ":^)
19:17:36 <Speuler> 'njoy phood
19:17:43 --- quit: jdamisch ()
19:53:39 <PoppaVic> hah.. waaay cool - primitives for all of dpans ;-) Plus tables..
19:55:16 <Speuler> byte code stuff ?
19:55:25 <PoppaVic> base for it.
19:56:17 <PoppaVic> dpans6++ htm | mozilla >txt; ./primgen.... *poof* source files.
19:56:59 <Speuler> ah. list of primitives
19:57:48 <PoppaVic> no. Source files.
19:58:17 <Speuler> where does the code come from ?
19:58:31 <PoppaVic> I generated all the comments and func-stubs.
19:58:54 <Speuler> ok
19:58:58 <PoppaVic> fix yer dcc sometime.. You'll enjoy it ;-)
20:00:06 <PoppaVic> all, the dpans comments, naming, parameters in/out - all get written neatly with the stub. The environment req. list at the file tops, and I suspect parsing that mess for stubs is next.
20:00:06 <Speuler> behind firewall
20:00:35 <Speuler> cool
20:02:00 <PoppaVic> Actually, I'll drop back to using merely "ans_" as the namespace.
20:02:05 * PoppaVic tweaks more
20:07:12 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
20:09:54 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth
20:27:15 <Speuler> hmm...
20:27:16 --- quit: TreyB (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:27:33 <Speuler> forth seems to have left pascal behind in terms of popularity
20:28:20 <Speuler> at least when judge popularity the way i just did
20:28:48 <Speuler> looked at number of hits on webrings of different languages
20:29:09 <Speuler> assembly: 1 ring, 1445 hits
20:29:19 <Speuler> forth: 1 ring, 5660 hits
20:29:45 <Speuler> pascal: 2 rings, 1260 hits
20:30:18 <Speuler> object oriented: 3 rings, 2637 hits
20:30:39 <Speuler> topping the list is c
20:30:52 <Speuler> 8 rings, 32229 hits
20:31:15 <Speuler> followed by javascript
20:31:28 <Speuler> 8 rings, 19208 hits
20:33:29 <Speuler> then java, visual basic, perl, basic, forth 
20:34:03 <Speuler> forth is 23 hits behind basic 
20:46:39 <ianni> damn
20:46:54 <ianni> this interview with chuck has got some cool ideas
20:47:12 * ianni wants to see fml in action!
20:57:29 <PoppaVic> fuckin' mail is taking forever to get sent..
21:04:45 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth
21:07:46 <PoppaVic> Well.. You should have mail <shrug> Maybe it ends up being useful.
21:11:09 <Speuler> mail :)
21:11:37 <PoppaVic> I'm still poking at it, next is a matter of generating the tokens.
21:12:58 <Speuler> 've been modifying header structure a bit. thought leaving the traditional header/link/cfa structure behind
21:13:22 <PoppaVic> do what you want <shrug> I'm still focussing on what I began.
21:13:36 <Speuler> aiming towards seperated headers, no link field
21:19:11 --- quit: gilbertdeb ("Monk has left the building")
21:34:36 --- quit: PoppaVic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.04.05