00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.04.02 01:09:52 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.235) joined #forth 01:14:33 * PoppaVic idolates 01:15:52 wow. 01:16:01 lo ;-) 01:16:14 I thought i was the only 'wide-awake-but-should-be-sleeping' one. 01:18:11 nah ;-) 01:18:30 I'd doodling between 'struct' and Speuler's string-stack 01:18:54 I am trying to make my sgi i2 work. 01:19:06 pain in the neck/butt/* 01:19:09 ? video? 01:19:25 no. 01:19:42 all to learn/practice MIPS asm. 01:19:48 ugh 01:20:33 thats a pretty circuitous way to go to avoid doing x86 asm :) 01:21:00 C is all the closer I need be to asm. 01:21:19 "C: where the programmer is the preprocessor for the assembler." 01:21:33 I agree completely. 01:21:39 but pointer arithmetics? 01:21:46 I love it ;-) 01:24:20 http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/angel/ 01:24:26 a standalone forth system 01:24:51 umm.. well, I ain't about to uninstall linux ;-) 01:25:15 hehehe 01:27:29 what is it for division? N cell / to get cells in N? 01:28:42 yah 01:36:57 time to sleep. 01:37:04 sleep? naaah 01:37:21 you are prolly in some weird timezone where it is noon. 01:37:41 0447 01:38:05 two of my clocks agree with you. 01:39:05 I want this thing to work, before I sack out 01:39:17 good luck. 01:39:27 tanks- sleep well 01:45:15 --- quit: revanthn () 02:53:16 --- quit: PoppaVic ("(I don't need a reason)") 02:55:01 What the...? 02:55:06 How long was he talking in here? 02:55:36 18:36:18 -!- PoppaVic [~pfv@s95.waters.gtlakes.com] has joined #forth 02:55:44 12:53:14 -!- PoppaVic [~pfv@s200.waters.gtlakes.com] has quit ["(I don't need a reason)"] 02:56:00 And he didn't make any larger breaks in that time, heh. 02:56:09 Forth makes people go crazy :) 03:12:43 I wouldn't go that far 03:12:55 it just rewires your brain in a different manner 03:13:22 I really must do more forth and less IRC 03:13:28 Hehe. 03:13:30 Same here. 03:32:38 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805773.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 04:41:08 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:41:34 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.108) joined #forth 05:56:45 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:00:45 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.83) joined #forth 06:10:46 --- join: Herkamir1 (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 06:11:42 Hi :) 06:12:27 --- quit: Herkamire (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 06:12:45 hi Robert :) 06:13:42 --- nick: Herkamir1 -> Herkamire 06:14:14 sweet :) 06:14:17 go nickserve 06:15:05 Yes, he's nice to the one with the password! 06:15:58 the other one was me :) but it seems I left my irc client at home on again 07:34:55 salut 07:35:33 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s177.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth 07:36:27 g'day 07:36:40 Robert: a swede just told me sweden is a communist (led) country, is that true? 07:37:14 No. 07:37:20 It's capitalistci 07:37:36 Some semi-socialist things... 07:38:24 * Speuler points his finger at robert, jumps around him, singing "capitalist, capitalist" 07:38:38 semi-soc... erm, what do you mean? 07:39:08 It's a capitalist system. 07:39:21 But with free hospital care etc 07:39:44 social* 07:39:57 ...? 07:40:12 oh ic 07:40:24 thx, Robert. 07:40:30 integrated circuits? 07:40:44 Not quite 08:28:07 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:29:35 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805773.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 08:46:14 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:17:07 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:17:31 --- join: skylan (sjh@tbaytel-dsl-telus5-11.nwconx.net) joined #forth 09:20:56 Cool.. it seems to work ;-) 09:21:19 What? 09:21:27 this struct thingie 09:21:39 ..experimenting with worlists and structs 09:21:41 --- quit: deluxe ("Client exiting") 09:21:48 worDlists 09:22:29 :) 09:23:29 I gave up ~ 4am.. I was getting nothing but trouble. 10:16:20 --- join: krish (KRISHNAKUM@61.1.220.131) joined #forth 10:16:39 hi all! 10:16:42 hi :) 10:16:50 lo ;-) 10:19:04 --- quit: xeno_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:44:55 OK.. That works very cool ;-) So, what's y'all up to? 10:45:35 Homework! 10:45:40 ugh 10:45:54 Right. History of Scotland. 10:46:12 oh. That almost sounds like "evening reading material" 10:46:51 * PoppaVic created his firstest 'struct' & 'wordlist' wonder-toys! 10:46:59 Not very much, really. Thought I'd write a bit about Maes Howe. 10:47:11 Wordlist? 10:47:30 yeah, the gforth/ans half-assed "vocabulary" 10:48:15 I wanted a struct, and I wanted all the handlers OUT of the main-damned-dictionary. 10:48:48 <-- Get's really provoked seeing ALL words in one, huge spew 10:49:02 t's/ts 10:49:19 Hehe.. how do you think they should be organized? 10:49:37 I like vocabularies. I like "namespaces" 10:49:50 ..otherwise, I might as well use C 10:50:31 Hehe. 10:50:52 PoppaVic: don't do structs in forth. use C if you like structs so much 10:50:59 plus, I knew I could use vectors - but I wanted to try these freaky wordlists 10:51:32 Herkamire: hey, it works great - it was just a major "learning experience", (as pappy always said). 10:51:41 I'm planning to write a sel-compiling forth, but I don't know how to start. 10:51:45 Any ideas? 10:51:52 PoppaVic: did you learn not to use structs then? 10:52:04 self-compiling? Metacompiling what? 10:52:15 Yes, it should compile itself. 10:52:23 No, I actually had great luck with it, Herkamire - it was just "odd". 10:52:30 you want to see it? 10:53:00 Robert: well, you either need to bootstrap some assembly, or bootstrap C - I've been thinking about it. 10:54:28 seems to me, rob, that it MIGHT be a good place to deploy XML - such as glade does.. Near as I can tell, XML is most useful when A wants to deal with B and you need something inbetween. 10:55:05 Mind you, I was thinking of that jenX thing I heard about on the web.. 10:56:24 PoppaVic: no thanks. unless you think you have something original 10:56:25 Approached properly, the Metaforth would use the XML rules to generate anything from 8080 asm to ansi-C 10:56:44 damnfino, Herkamire - I do know it works slick. 10:58:39 otoh, Robert - with forth running somewhere, we can do w/o xml foo-foo, but we'd need a meta-vocabulary. 11:02:39 I would think that a meta-vocabulary - one for each platform - would be fine. But, (this is where I thought xml), One vocab loading/using the proper xml "rules" seems like it might be more "portable". 11:10:59 PoppaVic: that all sounds interesting, but not much like forth 11:11:13 PoppaVic: do you use XML much? 11:11:15 PoppaVic: have you read about the tures project? www.tunes.org 11:11:16 no. 11:11:20 I still don't know what on earth it is about. 11:11:48 I've merely looked at xml & glade, and then that jenX thing.. as well as the old f-83 and f-pc meta foo 11:12:06 gilbertdeb: it's an overblown config-file. 11:12:37 gilbertdeb: XML is a format for storing arbitrary tree structures with optional key/value pairs on each node. problem is that it's hard to parse because it's multi-charset and human readable 11:12:42 but, it seems to work really well when A has one format internally, and so does B - and A or B wants to talk to the other 11:12:53 Herkamire: are they building a forth OS ? 11:13:05 * PoppaVic snorts 11:13:50 krish: not forth, but they are making a meta language with rules and such, which generates code... I can't describe it very well, read stuff on www.tunes.org 11:14:13 Herkamire: I did read their stuff sometime ago. 11:14:13 we already have piles of "meta languages" 11:14:27 seems simular to what PoppaVic is interested in 11:14:50 Actually, Robert was the one wanted a forth-building forth ;-) 11:15:05 PoppaVic: tunes is aimed at being nothing like the piles. check it out 11:15:30 I440r too plans to build a meta forth 11:15:51 as I said, it would be nice to begin from a meta-voc 11:17:18 krish check this out. http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/ 11:17:40 someone called revnathr dropped by in the wee hours of the morning and left that URL 11:17:58 yeah - w/o a note, reason or anything else 11:18:49 its empty ! 11:19:00 yeah - it needs one more address 11:19:55 add angel 11:22:16 it ain't a tarball, whatever it is 11:22:19 forth OS ? 11:22:27 no 11:22:30 it is a tarball 11:22:31 there is no such animal 11:22:45 (as I said yesterday) 11:22:47 i just downloaded it 11:23:10 a "forth OS" is like a "bash OS" or a "sh OS" 11:23:29 > /dev/null 11:23:42 Now, yeah "standalone" - makes sense in many cases. 11:24:57 from the README: 11:24:59 # Notes on this piece of junk I call an operating system 11:25:00 # 11:25:00 This is a standalone non-ANS Forth type system. It is not 11:25:00 capable of compiling itself, but all present development is 11:25:00 done from within the running system. 11:26:31 the Makefile has rules for GCC and ld !!! 11:27:41 well, I was bleary eyed when it dropped by. 11:27:51 and yeah he dropped that apropos of nothing. 11:28:03 another kiddie 11:28:11 there are a lot more people silently working on forths than we'll ever realise! 11:28:59 after seeing how uselessnet plays it out, I'm not really suprised. 11:29:42 ..plus, there is no real "portable" source repository, anymore than ANS being globally embraced. 11:30:29 --- join: flyfly (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 11:30:46 ..and then you have like that crazy russki's posts: he keeps wanting to rename and extend the "standard words" - it was almost a hoot, but I was too busy trying not to cry. 11:31:33 PoppaVic: what do you have in mind for a better forth? 11:31:53 I'm not sure yet... I've been out of the loop quite a while. 11:32:26 And, it would take a certain "critical mass" of interest to worry about it. 11:33:48 But, it's hard not to get depressed - reading that dpans-shit, searching the web, and then looking at stuff like ficl/pfe/gforth/bigforth 11:35:47 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD9E4ECDB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 11:36:23 PoppaVic: whats wrong with ficl/pfe/gforth/bigforth etc? 11:36:31 Given a few like-minded "interested-parties", I'd say a metaforth was doable, though. 11:37:24 well, look at 'em gil: 4 different approaches to the same issues. One hates asm, one hates C, one - bah.. That's why those java and perl shits keep plowing along. 11:38:24 poppa, add isforth to the list 11:39:09 yeah ( I was avoiding that many more chars ;-) 11:39:54 excepting bigforth, the rest are in C 11:40:06 I'd start, methinks, by doing what comittee's seemingly can't: lay out some ground rules that make sense.. And, then you unleash the C-boys left and the asm-boys right. 11:40:49 PoppaVic: the way I see it, there is a really tiny tiny tiny core with several possibilities for implementation. 11:40:54 meta-targeting, metavoc to compile std-voc 11:41:01 right 11:41:02 hence the hydra headed approach. 11:41:07 yep. 11:41:17 but that should be a good thing shouldn't it? 11:41:32 I don't recall the last time anyone wrote a C compiler at all. 11:41:42 Basically, like I said the other day, there isn't much that NEEDS asm - but hell, yeah: write one of each if you want - and specify at build-time. 11:42:02 no PoppaVic, asm should live. 11:42:08 gilbertdeb: recently there are quite a few C compilers written by individuals 11:42:10 C is just pseudocode for asm :) 11:42:10 * PoppaVic sighs 11:42:21 tinyCC, cc386 etc 11:42:34 krish: ah okay. I am out of the other language building loops. 11:43:15 and, everywhere possible, every 'word' in ASM/C should be available as a colon-def. 11:43:17 but krish how differently do they behave? 11:43:51 PoppaVic: perhaps its time for Fith :) 11:43:57 what you end up with is a gff compiler. 11:44:05 if they start behaving differently they will be ignored ! 11:44:09 or forth 1+ ;) 11:44:31 gilbertdeb: there is actually something called fifth - no ? 11:45:01 As I said: doable, but I doubt even 3 guys would be able to collaborate 11:45:04 gilbertdeb: don't learn about programming from I440r 11:45:30 he is extremeley cynical, jumps to conclusions, and exagerates really badly 11:45:30 Herkamire: he really hates C 11:45:52 that's ok - I feel precisely the same about asm 11:46:15 Herkamire: i still cant understand how he came to the conclusion that code need not be aligned properly 11:46:28 but, while he tinkers and piddles, another guy wrote the app ;-) 11:46:57 misaligned code simply makes the cpu screw around a few more clock-cycles, iirc 11:46:57 krish: there is. 11:46:58 krish: me neither. I work on PPC and I only recently learned that you could have unalligned code. 11:47:00 but no fith. 11:47:32 gilbertdeb: i thought fith was a typo 11:48:51 also, I'm can't tell if I440r is a good programmer. I heard he had to get somebody else to get isforth to work in the first place. and I don't know why he's so scared of writing assembler. 11:48:55 Nope. 11:49:02 Forth should be the basis for fith :) 11:49:06 C 11:49:25 if you remove all those graphics operators, even postscript looks capable 11:49:29 if he's unimployeed and likes assembler so much and says that he doesn't even have a real forth untill it has an assembler, than why hasn't he written one yet. 11:49:38 I just can't warm up to fanatics - any of 'em. 11:50:02 * tathi agrees with PoppaVic 11:50:14 ps is a forth-originated design anyway. 11:50:45 PoppaVic: apart from C, what else do you like? 11:50:54 C 11:50:55 I am scared of C if you must know. 11:51:05 ..and, yeah - I'm having fun in GForth 11:51:16 gilbertdeb: why C scares you ? 11:51:34 C is easy - I generally can't script, so.. I crank out a throwaway program. 11:51:56 now, yes: the GNU autoshit is an assbiter. 11:52:02 krish: It feels 'funny'. 11:52:21 generally, any language which promotes pointers in any way makes my mind shutdown. 11:52:32 gilbertdeb: like forth? 11:52:34 heh - I love pointers ;-) 11:52:40 and pointer-pointers 11:52:51 gilbertdeb: do you think forth does'nt promote pointers ? 11:52:52 and - after that, I tend to get pissed and use a struct ;-) 11:53:00 Herkamire: I haven't had to deal with pointers directly :) 11:53:10 forth uses pointers all over - I just did as well ;-) 11:53:17 gilbertdeb: how about variables? 11:53:31 don't like em much to be honest. 11:53:41 ..or lfa's or cfa's or pfa's or nfa's 11:53:48 gilbertdeb: you've never used @ or ! ??? 11:53:59 gilbertdeb: you've never used trings? 11:54:09 s/trings/strings/ 11:54:33 gilbertdeb: without pointers the whole programming world would come to a standstill 11:54:40 amen 11:54:41 Herkamire: I know how to use em. 11:54:52 gilbertdeb: have you don't any programming? 11:54:59 sure in python :) 11:54:59 s/don't/done/ 11:55:05 * PoppaVic rotfls 11:55:14 gilbertdeb: how about in forth? 11:55:22 nothing significant nope. 11:55:31 my one project is still on hold. 11:55:32 forth uses pointers way more than C 11:55:38 hmm 11:55:45 um.. I disagree 11:56:01 I still gotta find outs enough about how to drive the beep speaker in the machine. 11:56:10 Herkamire: I know even lisp has pointers. 11:56:15 ..I will say that you generally aren't thinking "this is a pointer", though 11:56:19 but I just don't want to have to do pointer arithmetics. 11:56:34 s/lisp/common lisp/ 11:56:43 gilbertdeb printf("\a"); 11:57:00 PoppaVic: now how do you make a different sound? 11:57:09 appart from the standard generic beep? 11:57:12 that's too damned bad, really: because pointer-math is faster than indexed foo-foo. 11:57:28 gilbertdeb: lisp was the first hll to support pointers (i dont think it supports pointer arithmetic) 11:57:39 gilbertdeb: I go find libspeaker, link & rock 11:57:39 krish: yeah thats my whole point. 11:57:49 PoppaVic: with a good C compiler there should be no difference 11:58:06 Herkamire: you mean optimizing - I don't. 11:58:18 krish: i know they are everywhere, again, even in lisp. but I don't want to have to deal with them. 11:58:24 directly :) 11:58:34 I am willing to let the interpreter/compiler do that work. 11:58:51 And, yet you repeatedly mention asm.. 11:58:52 PoppaVic: there is no point in talking about what C does on a crappy compiler. C is meant to be converted to efficient native code by a compiler 11:59:02 it's a compiled language 11:59:06 I disagree 11:59:09 PoppaVic: yeah at the asm level, there is much less BS, so thats okay. 11:59:13 and most C compilers are good. 11:59:25 a more direct conversion of C syntax to asm is only useful for debugging 11:59:37 gilbertdeb: that makes less sense than a screen-door on a submarine. 11:59:58 PoppaVic: why is that? 12:00:05 gilbertdeb: BS ? 12:00:06 because it's insane. 12:00:08 yes. 12:00:21 why is it insane? 12:00:35 gilbertdeb: BS => ? 12:00:36 when you finally learn c, you'll find out. 12:00:43 ok ok 12:01:17 PoppaVic: C is a decent language, i just happen to not like it primarily because of my painful intro to pointer arithmetics. 12:01:40 gilbertdeb: its very easy to write very bad code in asm 12:01:47 krish: thats a good thing. 12:02:03 its very easy to write bad code period. 12:03:18 gilbertdeb: what I meant was its easy to write bad code in asm than in C 12:03:36 yeah there is less hand holding. 12:03:45 hehe 12:03:52 besides, there are fantastic examples of good C coding 12:03:54 "hand holding" and C - I like that ;-) 12:03:59 I say its the ultimate discipline. 12:04:13 krish: there are also fantastic examples of good asm coding. 12:04:44 so given the two, how easily can you make sense out of them ? 12:04:44 I have been seduced by asm. what can i say? 12:04:57 --- part: Herkamire left #forth 12:05:02 you already said it: yer confuzzled ;-) 12:05:24 gilbertdeb: ok 12:05:36 PoppaVic: sure. by x86. 12:05:42 really puzzling stuff. 12:05:48 lots of synonyms too. 12:05:55 and it doesn't help with the macros at all. 12:06:09 gilbertdeb: x86 is supposed to be the worst asm 12:06:21 krish: thats why I took the trouble to buy a MIPS machine. 12:06:33 which I incidentally have not been able to get into thus far... 12:06:59 did you checkout sandpile.org or similar place ? 12:07:11 yes i have . 12:07:20 been all over. 12:07:28 the best thing I saw was ketman.asm 12:07:32 lovely software. 12:07:52 it is an interactive asm with a tutorial . 12:08:00 and it is reversible! 12:08:27 gilbertdeb: good for you ! 12:09:26 PoppaVic: there has to be something other than C! 12:09:57 there is, certainly: asm. 12:10:02 ah! 12:10:09 but you don't like asm! 12:10:10 ..and when the C compiler is ported, I can do w/o asm. 12:10:23 which c compiler? 12:10:33 PoppaVic: thatz the prudent way 12:12:23 PoppaVic: what's ur fav. C compiler ? 12:12:34 gcc, naturally. 12:13:06 of course, one can also build a "cross-compiler", predicated on a "cross-assembler". 12:13:21 ... when the C compiler is ported, I can do w/o asm. 12:13:27 which C compiler? 12:13:36 gcc, I said 12:13:49 ah . 12:13:52 ported to what? 12:14:06 I thought it was everywhere already. 12:14:21 and, if you stare at "cross-" long enough, you realize what a Meta should do. 12:14:59 PoppaVic: maybe vmgen can help ... 12:15:18 I saw it.. But I never looked into it 12:15:24 me too 12:15:31 also, iirc, it's GPL - rather than lgpl 12:16:02 cant you make commercial s/w under GPL ? 12:16:08 no 12:16:14 it's viral 12:16:23 lgpl lets you, however. 12:17:56 afaik, lgpl simply sez "this is MY tool - not yours. But, whatever it makes for you is yours." 12:18:22 PoppaVic: not a GPL fan? 12:18:43 * PoppaVic does the wiggling-hand thingie 12:19:00 tathi: got any insight into GPL ? 12:19:40 I tend to (c) my own stuff as GPL - for all except biz/commercial use. Those two can buy from me or piss off 12:20:37 ah 12:20:40 krish: ? 12:21:29 tathi: GPL can be used for commercial s/w 12:22:26 there is no clause in the GPL that forces that every s/w under the GPL should be made downloadable 12:22:51 best check it again. 12:23:04 GPL doesn't say you can't charge money for your software 12:23:06 just that the derived work should be fed back to the community 12:23:10 but... 12:23:21 if you BASE it on external gpl, that's fine - but including someone ELSES gpl-code is viral 12:24:00 anyone is allowed to distribute it, and if someone wants the source code, you have to give it to them for a minimal fee 12:24:24 ie: linking to pcre or GNU pth is great - I can be as private as I like. If I take either of those, and include them in my "thing" - unchanged or altered - then I must make my code gpl. 12:24:43 that's all. 12:24:46 PoppaVic: GPL specifically excludes linking, IIRC 12:24:52 right 12:24:53 tathi: suppose "A" develops a s/w for "B" and since it makes use of some GPL libs. 12:25:12 makes-use and "taking and hacking" are different usiverses. 12:25:24 tathi: he releases the s/w under GPL and "B" accepts and gets the source. finished. 12:25:25 krish: if you publically release that software, it must be GPL 12:26:32 what if I submit the changes back to the community ? 12:27:00 hmm 12:27:07 tathi: there is this oft-mentioned case of Sony and Redhat 12:27:08 And, to learn this about GPL - you gotta' read it a dozen times and ask 4 dozen people. *sigh* I fuckin' HATE lawyer-types 12:27:13 :) 12:29:19 krish: don't know anything about Sony/Redhat 12:31:03 the "A" is redhat and "B" is sony 12:32:40 PoppaVic: lawywer types are a useful! 12:33:03 so are rats and skeeters 12:33:04 if I can commit some crime, and get away with it thanks to the lawyer types, it means there is hope for everyone :D 12:33:14 ..and they are best used for compost. 12:33:57 PoppaVic: I say so because w/o that sort of thing, it would be easy for the gov't or the majority to impose unimaginable forms of tyranny as there have been in the past. 12:34:06 spare me. 12:34:23 eg, if the witches in MA had had good lawyer types, they wouldn't have been put to death for being 'witches'. 12:34:31 I digress. 12:34:35 this is forth. 12:34:56 s/witches/& of salem/ 12:35:55 gilbertdeb: salem ? 12:36:13 yeah salem massachusetts 12:36:20 sad story really. 12:36:47 gilbertdeb: oh. the city I live in is also called Salem 12:37:18 what were the chances? 12:37:36 what chances ? 12:38:54 n/m 12:39:02 I didn't know there was a salem in .in 12:39:12 there is. trust me 12:39:17 then again, it could have been named so by the british. 12:39:27 where does the name come from in India? 12:39:53 its just been there 12:40:02 for hundreds of years 12:40:05 salem is a really old town dating from the 1700's in Massachusettes. 12:40:12 krish: is it an indian word? 12:40:15 or is it a british word? 12:40:29 it is pronounced SayLem 12:41:16 i donno. 'salem' as such does'nt mean anytrhing. its pronounced say-lum 12:41:41 loom? 12:41:47 the 'lum' as in 'chum' 12:42:52 daylam 12:43:37 n e way. 12:43:44 its off to school with me. 12:43:48 --- quit: gilbertdeb (""Monk has left the building"") 12:50:24 ok folks bye bye 12:50:27 --- quit: krish ("Client Exiting") 12:52:46 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 13:43:54 --- quit: deluxe ("Client exiting") 13:49:18 heh :) I found a forth that runs in the java VM. 13:50:46 yeah 13:51:01 I'm fighting that anti-state compile/interpret crap 13:51:30 ..and concluding it's 'toopid 14:08:02 "really old town dating from the 1700's" 14:08:05 * Speuler grins 14:08:14