00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.30 02:29:05 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805B1D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 02:34:25 --- quit: Fractal (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:07:50 --- join: fly_fly (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 03:24:34 --- quit: flyfly (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:37:15 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-190-206.phnet.fi) joined #forth 05:11:16 --- nick: semtex -> Speuler 05:38:12 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 05:41:23 from a news ticker: "..since it showed the motivation with which the iraqui resist their liberation, the military leaders became careful" ... 05:50:08 ? 05:50:33 the "resist their liberation" was the funny part 05:50:49 ah that 05:51:03 did you know that usa has several propaganda ministerium? 05:51:48 didn't know but wouldn't be suprised 05:52:25 there was "patriot act" which woudl have sencored internet and brought 05:52:34 citizen spies 05:52:43 that is like in ddr people spying each other 05:53:00 was exactly what i was thinking right now 05:54:23 in the meanwhile, there are 85...90 % against war here. 05:54:32 deutchland 05:54:33 up from 70...75% 05:54:35 ja 05:55:16 USa is definately collapsing 05:55:20 Speuler: where is here? 05:55:26 same happens to it like to soviet union 05:55:26 Germany 05:55:28 and ddr 05:55:44 althoug not the same way 05:56:03 it woudl be intersting to know if it will separate into some parts or by states 05:56:35 the problem is that there are no states that are for each other enough (this is only "i think") 05:56:56 how does u.s. teevee portrait foreign country lack of support for war ? 05:57:00 not enough that puts them together with others and not enoguh that separates from others 05:57:54 "for each other enough" ? 05:58:51 something in common 05:59:04 or something against someone else 05:59:05 i think 05:59:06 :) 07:51:09 http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm is an interesting essay in this vein. 07:52:57 Ah.. I see I'm 7000 seconds late for this discussion. 07:55:43 what sidcussion? 08:11:20 Erm.. the one that happened about 2 hours ago. 08:11:31 You were talking te speuler and herkamire. 08:23:18 You know you've been playing Nethack too much when... 08:23:18 You look both ways down the corridor, start to sweat... then realise you're looking at your EMail address. 08:24:08 i was gonna call 911...but i was downloading a file 08:24:25 If you went camping and you got REALLY drunk with your friend and you 08:24:25 woke up the next morning with a condom stuck up your ass would you tell anybody? 08:24:25 i dont think so 08:24:26 Wanna go camping? 08:24:28 ;) 08:25:39 Robert, have you ever used nickname with Mik or Cel in front of it? 08:25:50 No. 08:25:53 HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU TELL THAT I'M 13 BY LOOKING AT WHAT I'M WRITEING????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 08:26:04 very good, Robert 08:26:21 *** Quits: TITANIC (Excess Flood) 08:26:22 :D 08:32:38 Hah 08:34:46 Robert, do you know "sparks"? 08:35:31 WHat? 08:36:17 there was quote with Robert and sparks talking 08:36:34 theres a new technology place in my city and i know a couple of dudes who are gonna steal some tv's from it...some sony 45inch flat panel hdtv plasma diplay tv's 08:36:34 seriously 08:36:36 i'm gonna get one for cheap ass fuck 08:36:38 as 08:38:38 According to IRC, 99% of the chicks are into cybersex. 08:38:38 The other 1% are actually girls. 08:38:56 that page is sad 08:39:06 wrong attitudes. such black and white. grayscale at most 08:39:29 mur: Which site? 08:40:33 bash.org 08:40:51 Hrm. 08:41:10 Some of it's funny, others, not. 08:41:38 What's ADD stand for? Attention Deficit LET'S GO RIDE BIKES! 08:42:09 ? 08:42:09 yes 08:42:11 some are very whitemale-macho-racist writings :P 08:42:59 Well, considering it's a sampling of IRC -- yah. 08:44:28 Heh. 08:46:32 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 08:46:32 . 08:46:36 666 ok 08:47:27 :) 08:47:27 how do I talk to sifbot? 08:47:27 sifbot: . 08:47:27 Robert: stack underflow 08:47:28 :) 08:47:28 whats sifbot written in? 08:47:28 sifbot: 37 3 * 3 * 2 * . 08:47:28 Robert: 666 08:47:29 No idea. 08:47:43 sifbot: 37 3 3 2 * * * . 08:47:43 gilbertdeb: 666 08:48:01 sifbot: : <3 ." Love me!" cr ; <3 <3 <3 08:48:02 Robert: Love me! Love me! Love me! 08:48:14 * Robert plays. 08:48:31 hmmm 08:49:12 sifbot: : hate 7 emit recurse ; hate 08:49:12 Robert: 08:49:30 brb 08:49:33 --- part: gilbertdeb left #forth 08:50:24 sifbot: : a r> drop 0 >r ; : b a ; b 08:50:26 Robert: 08:51:34 sifbot: : dump 10 0 do i c@ . space loop ; dump 08:51:34 Robert: 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 2 08:52:04 sifbot: : ! 67 emit ." ha" 66 ." !" emit ; : hacker ." YOU ARE BEING HACKED" ; ." 31337" hacker ! 08:52:05 mur: YOU ARE BEING HACKEDCha!B 08:53:02 sifbot: : dump 20 10 do i c@ . space loop ; dump 08:53:03 Robert: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 08:53:37 sifbot: : dump 0 100000 0 do i c@ + loop ; dump . 08:53:38 Robert: 62147 08:53:43 Heh. 08:53:48 sifbot: : dump 0 1000000 0 do i c@ + loop ; dump . 08:53:48 Robert: 31968 08:54:20 sifbot: : dump 0 100000000 0 do i c@ + loop ; dump . 08:54:20 Robert: 50738 08:54:20 0 0 0 0 is a little bit sex 08:54:20 sifbot: 1 16 << . 08:54:20 Robert: Word not found: << 08:54:21 Robert, again miss for 31337 08:54:26 sifbot: 1 16 shift-left . 08:54:27 Robert: Word not found: shift-left 08:54:31 sifbot: 1 16 shl . 08:54:32 Robert: Word not found: shl 08:54:34 Hmm... 08:54:40 1 3 ROL 08:54:42 whops 08:54:52 sifbot: 1 16 SHL 08:54:53 mur: Word not found: SHL 08:54:58 hm 08:55:17 hmmm... I thought I wrote a shift 08:55:23 Herkamire: What's it written in? 08:55:54 lshift and rshift 08:55:59 sifbot: : clear 27 emit ." [2J" ; clear 08:56:00 Robert: [2J 08:56:04 Bleh. 08:56:08 C 08:56:14 sifbot: 1 16 lshift . 08:56:15 Robert: 0 08:56:17 Hehe. 08:56:19 16-bit? 08:56:23 yep 08:56:31 What platform does it run on? 08:56:33 it compiles as 16 bit or 32 bit 08:56:46 should run on anything 08:57:00 the forth that is. the bot is for linux 08:57:16 OK :) 08:57:58 I'll change it to >> and << 08:57:59 sifbot: : + + 1+ ; 2 2 + . 08:58:01 Robert: 5 08:58:08 Hooray. It's listening to Insoc. 08:58:10 +g 08:58:15 Great :) 09:00:18 sifbot: 3 2 << . 09:00:20 Herkamire: Word not found: << 09:00:33 impressive ;) 09:01:04 Insoc? 09:01:13 ingsoc* 09:01:24 huh? 09:01:29 iirc.... only read the Swedish translation. 09:01:30 1984 09:02:07 insocks 09:03:05 sifbot: 3 2 << . 09:03:07 Herkamire: 12 09:03:17 :) 09:03:36 I updated the wrong copy of my bot 09:03:41 sifbot: : :) ( ) ; :) 09:03:42 Robert: 09:03:59 heh :) 09:14:44 --- quit: mur ("MUR!") 09:21:14 --- quit: onetom (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:14 --- quit: Herkamire (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:14 --- quit: ianni (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:18 --- quit: TreyB (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:19 --- quit: deluxe (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:22 --- quit: fridge (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:22 --- quit: xeno_ (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:22 --- quit: fly_fly (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:24 --- quit: sifbot (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:21:26 --- quit: Robert (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:13 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: fly_fly (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805B1D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: xeno_ (~xeno@160.80-203-40.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 09:22:13 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 09:22:49 --- quit: onetom (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:52 --- quit: ianni (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:52 --- quit: Herkamire (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:54 --- quit: TreyB (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:56 --- quit: fridge (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:56 --- quit: xeno_ (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:22:57 --- quit: deluxe (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:23:00 --- quit: sifbot (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:23:00 --- quit: fly_fly (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:23:01 --- quit: Robert (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 09:23:33 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: fly_fly (~marekb@ip164.ktvprerov.cz) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@p50805B1D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: onetom (~tom@novtan.bio.u-szeged.hu) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: sifbot (~sifforth@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: xeno_ (~xeno@160.80-203-40.nextgentel.com) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: fridge (meldrum@zipperii.zip.com.au) joined #forth 09:23:33 --- join: ianni (ian@inpuj.net) joined #forth 09:57:10 --- join: krish (KRISHNAKUM@61.1.220.168) joined #forth 09:57:50 hi 09:58:16 Hi :) 09:58:45 sifbot: : say ; : hello ." Hello, " ; : to ; : krish ." krish!" ; say hello to krish 09:58:46 Robert: Hello, krish! 09:58:54 Hrm. Stupid bot. 10:00:41 :) 10:01:42 --- quit: fly_fly ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4") 10:07:39 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth 10:09:45 18:49:28 < gilbertdeb> brb 10:09:46 18:49:31 -!- gilbertdeb [~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net] has left #forth [""onye gbemi""] 10:09:50 20:07:38 -!- gilbertdeb [~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net] has joined #forth 10:09:55 Riiiiight, "brb"... 10:09:58 danke 10:10:37 Bitte sehr @$#! 10:11:11 gilbertdeb: sifbot is a forth written in C plus a bash script that uses awk and a couple tiny C progs. source available at http://herkamire.homeip.net:3/svn/sifbot/ 10:11:25 danke herkamire 10:11:58 the forth is at http://herkamire.homeip.net:3/svn/sif/ 11:11:40 --- join: Serg_Penguin (~z@ppp159-102.dialup.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:12:19 hi 11:12:29 just 4 few mins... 11:14:22 hi Serg_Penguin 11:16:00 --- join: futhin (futhin@dial-16.ocis.net) joined #forth 11:16:08 --- topic: set to 'moo' by futhin 11:16:36 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit) 11:18:41 --- quit: Serg_Penguin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:21:24 --- quit: krish ("Client Exiting") 11:32:01 bashforth 0.48 is out 11:32:52 integrated doc facility, string functions (on seperate string stack) added. 11:35:00 www.forthfreak.net/bashforth 11:35:19 sifbot: s" ls" system 11:35:21 Speuler: Word not found: system 11:35:34 sifbot: words 11:35:36 Speuler: ." .( : if then do loop repeat until exit ... 11:36:10 sifbot: 1 dup base ! . 11:36:12 Speuler: Word not found: base 11:40:21 sifbot: 123 11:40:22 Speuler: 11:40:25 sifbot: . 11:40:27 Speuler: stack underflow 11:40:42 sifbot: variable foo 11:40:44 Speuler: 11:40:47 sifbot: foo 11:40:48 Speuler: Word not found: foo 11:41:35 sifbot: hex aa decimal . 11:41:36 Speuler: Word not found: hex 11:42:03 sifbot: last 11:42:04 Speuler: Word not found: last 11:42:09 sifbot: latest 11:42:11 Speuler: Word not found: latest 11:42:47 sifbot: : foo 0 do i . loop ; 10 foo 11:42:48 Speuler: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11:42:51 sifbot: : foo 0 do i . loop ; 100 foo 11:42:52 Speuler: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11:43:07 sifbot: : foo 0 do i . loop ; 10 foo cr 10 foo cr 10 foo 11:43:08 Speuler: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 11:43:59 sifbot: : foo 0 do 13 emit i . loop ; 100 foo 11:44:00 Speuler: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 11:44:46 sifbot: : foo 0 do i emit loop ; 16 foo 11:44:47 Speuler: 11:45:02 sifbot: : foo 16 do i emit loop ; 32 foo 11:45:02 Speuler: 11:45:13 sifbot: : foo 16 do i emit 42 emit loop ; 32 foo 11:45:14 Speuler: **************** 11:45:48 : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:46:07 sifbot: : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:46:08 Speuler: * 11:46:28 sifbotxxx: : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:47:02 sifbot : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:47:12 sifbot:xxx : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:47:21 sifbot: : hi 22 emit ; : star 42 emit ; hi star 11:47:23 Speuler: * 11:48:01 sifbot: : foo 128 do i emit loop ; 160 foo 11:48:02 Speuler: 11:48:06 having fun speuler ;) 11:48:10 :) 11:49:58 foo sifbot: 42 emit 12:03:20 I just read this. Less than 10% of the code has to do with the ostensible purpose of the system; the rest deals with input-output, data validation, data structure maintenance, and other housekeeping. 12:03:27 Speuler: is it THAT true? 12:04:15 depends on the program 12:04:28 whats your estimate? 12:04:56 works for me 12:04:56 embedded: higher percentage of code actually doing something 12:05:14 the GUI is usually most of the code on a graphical program 12:05:15 graphical user interface: estimate may be right 12:05:35 hmmm. 12:05:43 lots of fluff then. 12:05:50 not enough abstraction? 12:06:20 making a conventional GUI might just be a ton of code. 12:06:24 just compare code sizes of gui-program against the command-line analogue 12:06:30 I'm not sure if it can be done terribly simply 12:07:15 that does not even consider that lots of code is loaded dynamically through libs 12:08:07 so more libraries needed? 12:08:10 or better languages? 12:08:26 if you're coding algorithms, you're percentage is much better than that 12:09:19 gilbertdeb: better GUIs are needed :) 12:09:23 iu doubt that other languages would change anything 12:09:30 Herkamire: what about smalltalk 12:09:30 ? 12:09:32 or rebol? 12:09:41 or kx? they come with pretty nifty guis 12:09:55 you mean squeak? 12:10:49 it is the nature of things that the code to enable a non-specialist user to use a program is often more complex than the code, implementing the programs functionality 12:11:17 here here! 12:11:52 it's a ton of programming to make a program usable by point-and-click by someone who dosn't read the docs 12:12:12 but its a fairly standardised thing. 12:12:22 yes 12:12:25 it's crap though 12:12:26 most appliances are generally 'point and click'. 12:12:28 still involving code 12:12:52 the world is hooked on software that you can use right away. the problem is that you can never get things done very fast with that software 12:13:07 sure you can, you buy a faster computer :D 12:13:14 thats why Dell is in business sir. 12:13:14 you can 12:13:14 often 12:13:24 that is, crash it quickly 12:13:27 the learning curve is such that it is very very easy to get started, and very very hard (or impossible) to get very good at it. 12:13:41 yeah, like emacs :P 12:13:46 gilbertdeb: that doesn't help all that much 12:13:57 no matter how fast your computer is, you still can't script Windows. 12:14:23 --- join: proteusguy (~username@216.27.161.121) joined #forth 12:14:23 for example it takes (minimum) 10 clicks to change the keyboard to dvorak 12:14:45 hmmm. 12:14:54 on my computer, you hit F8 12:15:19 thats all? 12:15:22 now I had to invest a little time in setting that up, but not much. 12:15:27 what kind of computer is it? 12:15:30 linux 12:15:50 ah. 12:15:55 I went into the settings for my window manager and hooked F8 to call xkbd or whatever 12:16:02 cool. 12:16:18 here is why I think too much code needs to be written: 12:16:31 too many people are sold to the idea of using computers. 12:16:46 furthermore, it is much more sensible to have a computer do exactly one thing ... 12:16:56 than to have a computer with 1001 possibilities. 12:17:08 or maybe even a program. 12:17:23 eg. ed does one thing and one thing only: edit. 12:17:35 emacs does everything except find my hot chicks. 12:17:45 the problem is that people have never used good software. Part of the reason they are unwilling to take the time to learn how to use software with less point-and-click is that in there experience that indicates a crappier program (and is thus not worth their time.) 12:18:17 I'm sure you could use emacs to find hot chicks 12:18:18 Herkamire: most people got introduced to computers via dos. 12:18:24 it has a web browser, and a jabber client 12:18:27 :) 12:18:39 and dos was a terribly interface to that world ... 12:18:53 point and click was hailed as an improvement by those, 12:18:59 dos is a big part of why some people are scared. 12:19:08 sure, it's better than dos. 12:19:17 but many people have never seen a good text based program. 12:19:25 my favorite programs are text based. 12:19:34 and because there is a big movement to make a computer a commodity, there are way too many programmers involved in doing other stuff. 12:19:39 not because text is super, they just happen to be that way 12:19:43 eg, writing code for the AIBO from sony. 12:19:56 they are faster, both in what they do, and they are faster for me to operate 12:20:26 what do you mean make a compter a commodity? 12:20:35 like a toaster. 12:20:40 or a cd player. 12:20:52 a commonplace item easily marketable to the masses. 12:21:22 the masses who would otherwise not spend their hard earned dollars on such a thing. 12:21:52 one of the reasons I want to write my own operating system is to have a cool mix of text and graphics. 12:22:05 what would it be like? 12:22:12 I will probably write most programs on the terminal, but I'll be able to put graphics on there too 12:22:25 like squeak? 12:22:44 I've never seen an terminal in squeak 12:23:00 I couldn't stand the GUI in squeak 12:23:11 why not :P 12:23:22 you couldn't do anything fast. 12:23:29 you were always chasing widgets down with the mouse 12:23:52 would you rather move them around with a pen? 12:23:56 ala tablet pc? 12:24:19 the mouse is for specifying or moving coordinates 12:24:35 the idea of having something on the screen that looks like a button is frankly retarted. 12:24:36 you mean the mouse is for pointing and clicking ;) 12:24:47 why is that retarded? 12:24:49 there are over 100 buttons on this keyboard. I dare say that's enough to run any program 12:24:52 what would you rather have on there? 12:25:03 the mouse is for cleaning it once a forthnight 12:25:04 I would like to have content on my screen 12:25:05 sure, but you have to learn what button does what. 12:25:19 yes. it's called documentation 12:25:24 :help save 12:25:43 but thats reams of documentation, and good time spent learning the tools and not using them. 12:25:53 thats costly. 12:25:56 and I say that is bad design! 12:25:57 for the first day or 10 12:26:02 or 1000 12:26:07 what the hell do you use? 12:26:14 for what? 12:26:25 I am working on remote booting this irix! 12:26:28 that took you 1000 days to get any good at using 12:26:37 Herkamire: hyperbole 12:26:55 I don't know what that is. 12:26:56 in all, thats about as much time it takes to read all that stuff computers inevitably come with. 12:27:17 the amount of reading time is reduced with a more sensible interface! 12:28:12 that said, I think everyone oughta learn ed. 12:28:14 in a good interface (such as vim) you have to take a little time BEFORE you do something to learn how to do it. and then EVERE SUCCEEDING TIME it is very quick 12:28:53 vim is a good example of a complex program with the kind of learning curve I like. 12:29:02 Herkamire: btw I envision a foot switch for vim to help transfer from instruction to command mode :) 12:29:09 I mean, insertion to command. 12:29:21 it takes a time investment to get started, but then you get better and better and better, and you can edit sooooooooooo much faster than it was ever possible to before. 12:29:38 I know. 12:29:45 I value the time I put into learning to use ed. 12:30:07 most people don't realise the ':' is pure pure ed mode! 12:30:35 I watch people use computers, and they don't take time to learn to do something quicker. it's the wierdest thing. 12:30:56 I figure I owe it to myself to spend at least 10% of my time on a computer learning to do something [better]. 12:31:05 or faster/easier 12:31:15 as time goes on I can do things faster and faster 12:32:07 but don't you think the amount of time spent coding is exhorbitant? 12:32:19 every single last thing must be put there in text form! 12:32:34 what are you talkin gbout? 12:32:59 typing, coding, etc. 12:33:23 the method remains puting one letter after another. 12:33:28 or cutting and pasting. 12:33:36 how else? 12:33:40 which previously involved putting one letter after another. 12:33:51 well, the methods used by labview/idl/prograph 12:34:02 anybody who uses a computer much should be able to type at a reasonable speed 12:34:21 what's that? 12:34:39 all three languages have gui interfaces for programming. 12:35:02 much of the work involves pointing and clicking ... 12:35:10 I'll bet you $5 it's slower to program in than typing 12:35:19 I don't know. 12:35:45 I'll bet you can use cool utilities like grep 12:36:20 I don't think grep computes in those environments. 12:36:22 I bet it's difficult or impossible to write scripts to find/change/fix things in your code, or run version control 12:37:33 the closest thing to spead coding is the method of using libraries. 12:37:40 or is there a faster method yet? 12:38:03 follow the methods of chuck moore. 12:38:11 you will find that avoiding writing things saves the most time :) 12:38:38 but it takes a great deal more to do what he does. 12:38:53 here's another thing you can't do with graphical languages: autogenerate source. 12:38:53 there aren't _that_ many good programmers outhere. 12:39:09 whadya mean autogenerate? 12:39:11 it takes disciplin 12:39:13 not time 12:39:40 I have an awk script in my sif program that creates about one third of the source files. 12:39:46 Herkamire: would you agree though that most of those who can do that kinda thing are usually well versed in asm ? 12:40:04