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08:11:34 <Herkamire> morning folks
08:11:42 <I440r> hi
08:11:46 <gilbertdeb> hi.
08:11:55 <gilbertdeb> I440r: >r swap r> ?
08:12:02 <gilbertdeb> does it die still?
08:12:07 <I440r> yes
08:12:31 <I440r> ive not looked at it yet. but its not high on the priority list at the moment, doing that outside a : definition is always silly :/
08:12:51 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
08:13:00 <gilbertdeb> why doesn't it just tell me then!
08:13:11 <Herkamire> :) don't mess with the rstack at interpret time
08:13:47 <I440r> gilbert its not my compilers jot to try stop you from doing something silly
08:14:43 <gilbertdeb> I hear.
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08:46:36 <Robert> Hi all
08:46:52 <gilbertdeb> hi
08:47:05 <gilbertdeb> all is not here today so I am answering for her.
08:47:09 <gilbertdeb> Is that okay?
08:48:01 <gilbertdeb> come on, you were meant to say 'hahahaha'.
08:48:05 <gilbertdeb> failing that, 'lol'.
08:48:12 <gilbertdeb> and at the very least 'heh'.
08:48:25 <gilbertdeb> or worst case scenario 'right'.
08:49:28 <gilbertdeb> brb
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08:51:49 <Herkamire> hi Robert :)
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09:54:19 <I440r> hi kirsh
09:54:33 <krish> hello! ppl
09:54:42 <krish> US suffering setbacks ?
09:54:42 <gilbertdeb> Hi krish
09:54:55 <gilbertdeb> Ppl is not here at the moment however, I will answer for her.
09:54:58 <gilbertdeb> is that okay?
09:55:15 <krish> is there somebody with the id ppl ?
09:55:24 <krish> by ppl, i meant people ...
09:55:26 <krish> oops!
09:55:26 <gilbertdeb> yes
09:55:38 <gilbertdeb> who woulda thunk huh?
09:56:13 <gilbertdeb> krish this is how I see the war: my permission was not sought, neither was my advice in a 'democratic' country.
09:56:33 <gilbertdeb> My representatives took the initiative to spend my tax dollars the way they saw fit.
09:56:39 <gilbertdeb> without asking me.
09:56:45 <gilbertdeb> I am miffed.
09:58:39 <I440r> im glad your not in charge :/
10:00:11 <gilbertdeb> yeah, we are in the same boat.
10:00:16 <gilbertdeb> No one sought your permission either.
10:00:39 <gilbertdeb> you should be more worried about the fact that they take liberties with your liberty and rights.
10:00:40 <krish> gilbertdeb: 'democrazy' is something that you will reminded of once in 5 years !
10:01:06 <gilbertdeb> krish I might just move to India. A) I like indian food. B) Indian chix are hot :D
10:01:36 <krish> gilbertdeb: donno about indians in the US. but back home they are pretty conservative
10:01:41 <gilbertdeb> oh?
10:01:42 <gilbertdeb> :(
10:02:01 <krish> like, no sex before marriage, stable long running marriages etc.
10:02:39 <krish> parents support children in their formative years. children support parents during the latter part 
10:02:45 <krish> things like that ...
10:03:18 <gilbertdeb> yeah but once you get married...
10:03:20 <I440r> america is NOT a dempcracy
10:03:26 <I440r> its a democratic REPUBLIC
10:03:31 <gilbertdeb> they all have a kama sutra under their pillows right?
10:03:42 <krish> hmmm.
10:03:43 <gilbertdeb> I440r: why don't we preach that to the people we try to 'convert'?
10:04:09 <krish> gilbertdeb: can't answer that - no prior experiance
10:04:14 <gilbertdeb> krish: it happens here to, but due to extreme incompetence, we prefer to have elderly homes take care of our elderly.
10:05:00 <krish> gilbertdeb: in India, you'll find a lot of housewives - to take care of the home .
10:05:02 <gilbertdeb> the big difference between the way of life here from perhaps that of india is that more and more people are competent at fewer and fewer things.
10:05:34 <gilbertdeb> krish: it is not common here because it is pretty darned expensive that way.
10:05:36 <krish> i dont exactly understand that ...
10:05:57 <gilbertdeb> there are fewer jack of all trades here than in say, India.
10:06:19 <krish> yes. even in India cities are changing too
10:06:46 <gilbertdeb> you might find a jack of all trades in a small rural town in one of the fly-over states...
10:06:47 <krish> well, illitracy is a big problem - some people dont know even their basic rights.
10:07:00 <gilbertdeb> krish: that is not illiteracy is it?
10:07:15 <krish> proof of my statement.
10:07:29 * krish holds his head in shame ...
10:07:31 <gilbertdeb> many people can read and write here, but they hardly know their rights either.
10:07:51 <krish> the funny thing is we have about 25 languages.
10:08:21 <krish> the country is linguistically seperated.
10:08:34 <gilbertdeb> well, before colonialism was there one India?
10:08:38 <krish> so when we travel from one state to another, we are like foreigners.
10:08:46 <krish> no.
10:08:54 <gilbertdeb> was there ever one india with all 25 languages?
10:09:06 <krish> different Rajas ruled the different parts.
10:09:11 <krish> no.
10:09:12 <gilbertdeb> aha!
10:09:41 <gilbertdeb> but it was designed the way it was for the benefit of the colonial masters...
10:09:53 <gilbertdeb> portuguese, french and I guess later on the english.
10:10:06 <krish> language, cultural differences made things easy
10:10:29 <krish> but has a very very rich history
10:10:31 <gilbertdeb> yeah so it was easier to keep people fighting each other than to have them oppose the rule of the English.
10:11:24 <gilbertdeb> perhaps after independence, if the various maharajas had been given back their kingdoms... 
10:11:25 <krish> unfortunately most of it are lost or undecipherable to the modern india
10:12:05 <gilbertdeb> I would'nt say that is such a grand loss.
10:12:17 <krish> coz, sanskrit was the lingo in ancient india. 
10:12:48 <gilbertdeb> sanskrit?
10:12:51 <krish> another thing is people in ancient india used a learning scheme called "Guru-sishya parampara"
10:12:53 <gilbertdeb> so there was exactly one language?
10:13:04 <gilbertdeb> they had teachers?
10:13:09 <gilbertdeb> mentors?
10:13:16 <krish> exactly.
10:13:44 <krish> the students to learn should live with the guru and serve him for the entire learning period.
10:14:00 <gilbertdeb> isn't that how it is in Zen monasteries?
10:14:05 <gilbertdeb> or monasteries in general?
10:14:25 <krish> something like master-apprentice model in StarWars.
10:14:48 <krish> yes.
10:14:52 <gilbertdeb> that is called a PhD program.
10:14:59 <gilbertdeb> :D
10:15:12 <krish> the learning was through hearing only.
10:15:22 <krish> or mostly hearing
10:15:23 <gilbertdeb> that can't be!
10:15:37 <krish> or listening would be a better way
10:15:42 <gilbertdeb> there is a lot of ancient sanskrit literature isn't there?
10:16:08 <krish> those are just the notes made by the students.
10:16:29 <krish> the great thing is there are many foreigners studying about Vedas etc.
10:16:42 <gilbertdeb> and few indians study these?
10:17:03 <krish> just look at the explosive growth of ISKCON
10:17:14 <krish> only a very few.
10:18:10 <gilbertdeb> Indian Society of Kavemen conference?
10:18:33 <krish> the other day, I saw a german guy on my local channel clad in a nice dhoti, explaining to us about the intricacies of bagwad gita etc.
10:18:46 <gilbertdeb> thats a shame!
10:19:07 <krish> ISKCON => International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
10:19:15 <krish> i was filled with shame ...
10:19:17 <gilbertdeb> he should have been telling you guys about theodorik and the rise of german rule in Ancient rome!
10:19:58 <gilbertdeb> the ancient romans didn't really leave that many interesting texts behind ... some oratories and one or two others.
10:20:51 <deluxe> expert?
10:20:53 <krish> no. what I meant was the west realizes the value of Indian tradition/practices but the local ones (and that includes me!) are chasing wild goose
10:21:07 <krish> hi deluxe!
10:21:25 <deluxe> hi krish!
10:21:29 <deluxe> howdie
10:21:38 <gilbertdeb> krish: you are the result of the varied histories of your countrymen.
10:21:53 <gilbertdeb> would you rather everyone studied the vedas?
10:21:54 <krish> and the U.S is issuing patents to companies that are using our herbs
10:22:03 <gilbertdeb> krish: now that is disgusting.
10:22:06 <gilbertdeb> it is called stealing.
10:22:17 <krish> there is simply so much in vedas.
10:22:17 <deluxe> gilbertdeb: "...ancient romans..."  <--  expert?
10:22:18 <gilbertdeb> Globalization by those who benefit.
10:22:26 <gilbertdeb> deluxe: who is the expert?
10:22:28 <gilbertdeb> you?
10:22:31 <krish> just about everything
10:23:08 <krish> deluxe: just a Q - how does one install knoppix on a disk ?
10:23:18 <gilbertdeb> you burn the ISO!
10:23:28 <gilbertdeb> knoppix Rules!
10:23:34 <deluxe> krish: easy
10:23:45 <deluxe> type hd-install
10:23:50 <krish> deluxe: can you give an outline ?
10:24:01 <deluxe> uups type knx-hdinstall
10:24:20 <krish> at boot time ?
10:24:27 <deluxe> in /usr/bin/ i think
10:24:27 <gilbertdeb> no once it is done booting.
10:24:33 <gilbertdeb> as root.
10:24:53 <deluxe> nope. system be up b4
10:25:34 <deluxe> make sure to you answered the partition b4
10:25:58 <deluxe> erm, make sure you answered the partition q b4
10:26:41 <krish> ok.
10:26:46 <krish> knoppix is nice..
10:27:06 <gilbertdeb> yes it is. 
10:27:22 <gilbertdeb> I should burn several copies and give them out at airports.
10:27:23 <deluxe> i use it mostly for rescue and maintenance
10:27:33 <deluxe> :-)
10:27:38 <gilbertdeb> deluxe: I couldn't use it properly for rescue though.
10:27:46 <deluxe> oh?
10:27:50 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
10:28:26 <deluxe> yes you had to boot into another system
10:28:44 <deluxe> w/ a determined kernel
10:29:44 <deluxe> but did you try changeroot though?
10:30:06 <krish> I440r: did you have a look at the source of the checkers program ?
10:30:30 <gilbertdeb> deluxe: nope.
10:31:06 <krish> anyone here knows what a perfect number is ?
10:31:26 <gilbertdeb> krish: give 2 examples.
10:31:30 <deluxe> gilbertdeb: pity, could have told me then, if it works :)
10:31:38 <gilbertdeb> haha.
10:31:40 <krish> i donno.
10:32:10 <deluxe> 28 is a perfect number
10:32:16 <I440r> krish yea - it wont be easy to port it :)
10:32:24 <gilbertdeb> why is 28 a perfect number?
10:32:51 <gilbertdeb> 6 and 28
10:32:54 <gilbertdeb> I see why now.
10:32:59 <gilbertdeb> 1+2+3
10:33:19 <gilbertdeb> 1+2+4+7+14
10:33:21 <krish> sum of every factor = number ?
10:33:39 <gilbertdeb> sigma (positive divisors)
10:34:15 <krish> ok.
10:34:34 <krish> gilbertdeb: read "The Emperors New Mind" ?
10:34:42 <gilbertdeb> it is on my shelf :D
10:34:52 <gilbertdeb> nope.
10:35:03 * gilbertdeb hangs his head.
10:35:33 * krish takes a picture ...
10:35:46 <gilbertdeb> anyway, the reason more people do not know their rights here is due to the fact that the job has been delegated to lawyers.
10:35:58 <gilbertdeb> again, incompetence.
10:36:27 <krish> lawyers bring shame on the entire human race, IMO
10:36:38 <gilbertdeb> they bring justice to the guilty.
10:36:41 <gilbertdeb> that is good enough!
10:37:08 <gilbertdeb> what kind of world would it be if there was absolutely no chance at all to escape some responsibilities every now and then?
10:37:21 <gilbertdeb> societally imposed responsibilities I might add.
10:37:38 <krish> gilbertdeb: married ?
10:37:43 <gilbertdeb> nope.
10:38:01 <krish> gilbertdeb: how old are you ?
10:38:17 <gilbertdeb> everything with the word 'legally' in it implies lawyers would like to be involved in the process at a point in time.
10:38:20 <gilbertdeb> a mere 25.
10:38:32 <krish> ha.
10:38:37 <Robert> Oldie.
10:38:43 <gilbertdeb> yeah kid.
10:38:44 <Robert> You're born before Forth '79!
10:38:47 <gilbertdeb> I am an oldbie.
10:38:53 <krish> atlast someone adds a 'mere' to 25
10:39:00 <gilbertdeb> Robert: my copy of SF only talks about '79 :D
10:39:06 <Robert> :)
10:39:11 * Robert is born _after F83
10:39:26 <gilbertdeb> yeah. by then there were no more standards.
10:39:34 <Robert> Actually, I was born about two months before Chernobyl!
10:39:46 * Robert is the radiactive man.
10:39:47 <I440r> :)
10:39:50 <gilbertdeb> february.
10:39:50 <Robert> radioactive
10:39:54 <krish> what a birth ...
10:39:57 <Robert> Nah, early March.
10:40:13 <gilbertdeb> Robert: february does not have all the days intact.
10:40:19 <gilbertdeb> it is an incomplete month.
10:40:20 <krish> come on guys, anyone interested in their palms read ?
10:40:22 <Robert> Hehe.
10:40:54 <gilbertdeb> krish: that is politically incorrect.
10:40:58 <Herkamire> http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bush_gulfwars2.jpg
10:41:00 <gilbertdeb> what about all the people who lost their arms?
10:41:17 <krish> my classmate is a terrific palmist.
10:41:26 <gilbertdeb> lol
10:41:32 <Robert> Never used any palm
10:41:37 <krish> no i'm serious.
10:41:50 <krish> there is so much the lines than you can imagine
10:41:55 <gilbertdeb> krish: I use a cheap paper notebook.,
10:42:11 <gilbertdeb> krish: it is a matter of imposing what you want on what you see.
10:42:16 <Robert> Herkamire: Yeah, that's a nice one.
10:42:22 <gilbertdeb> the palms say nothing, or they predict the end of the world.
10:42:27 * krish tearing his hair out.
10:42:40 <gilbertdeb> krish: or they help you grasp your hair to tear them out :D
10:43:22 <krish> Herkamire: fantastic. did you see AOTC ?
10:43:44 <gilbertdeb> yes I did.
10:43:46 <krish> yoda was superb.
10:44:08 <gilbertdeb> yoda's place is forever set high in my mind.
10:44:14 <gilbertdeb> also, he speaks forth!
10:44:15 <Herkamire> krish: yes
10:44:36 <krish> maybe there is a connection ...
10:44:56 <krish> the StarWars ships were all programmed in Forth !
10:45:36 <Robert> :)
10:45:38 <gilbertdeb> I went to an exhibit of most of the star wars props in ohio.
10:45:39 * krish could understand yoda but not (yet) forth programs.
10:45:55 <gilbertdeb> krish I have the bibles now.
10:45:58 <gilbertdeb> but lemme tell you.
10:46:13 <gilbertdeb> I can't do >r swap r> even though the bible says it is possible!
10:46:49 <krish> bible => ?
10:46:53 <krish> sf&tf ?
10:46:58 <gilbertdeb> yep!
10:47:12 <gilbertdeb> F'79 edition.
10:47:34 <krish> why is sf&tf so hyped ? 
10:48:13 <gilbertdeb> prolly because so many forthers read it ...
10:48:20 <gilbertdeb> and there aren't that many good books on forth.
10:48:27 <krish> deluxe: 3 us tanks ceased ?
10:48:45 <gilbertdeb> brodie uses lots of cartoons in SF to illustrate what he means.
10:48:48 <gilbertdeb> very useful.
10:49:01 <gilbertdeb> he represents the return stack with a 'hand'.
10:49:27 <gilbertdeb> because it gives you an extra hand if you need it to hold stuff from the other stack.
10:49:31 <krish> somebody talk to Mr. Leo Brodie and get the rights ...
10:49:33 <Herkamire> I think because we like the books :)
10:50:08 <gilbertdeb> krish: the rights belong to Elizabeth Rather of Forth Inc.
10:50:15 <gilbertdeb> you can send her an email if you desire.
10:50:28 <gilbertdeb> also, there are 500 copies available from some obscure location.
10:50:32 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: have you read it?
10:50:41 <krish> the other day, I felt humiliated when everyone @ the local bookstore started smiling when I mentioned Forth ...
10:50:51 <I440r> the rights to what ?
10:50:59 <gilbertdeb> I440r: copyright to STarting forth
10:51:16 <gilbertdeb> so basically, she sits on it because she can...
10:51:24 <Herkamire> gilbertdeb: I read some of starting forth. it seemed like a lot of fun, and a great way to get people started understanding and visualizing the stack(s)
10:51:30 <I440r> no. the original publishers have the rights
10:51:30 <I440r> even if ER wanted to release it they refuse
10:51:32 <gilbertdeb> Herkamire: it is.
10:51:48 <gilbertdeb> I440r: she says she owns it and isn't publishing it because it is out of date.
10:51:53 <gilbertdeb> also, isn't releasing it.
10:52:07 <krish> Paul Graham was very generous when he put his book "On Lisp" (another mind expanding book) online
10:52:20 <gilbertdeb> krish: he put both his books online.
10:52:28 <I440r> it is :)
10:52:31 <gilbertdeb> Ansi Common Lisp is there as well.
10:52:35 <I440r> its WAY out of date :)
10:52:37 <krish> since when ?
10:52:46 <gilbertdeb> krish: it was the first one.
10:53:00 <krish> gilbertdeb: are you sure ?
10:53:17 <gilbertdeb> yes I am.
10:53:29 <gilbertdeb> also take a look at this: http://green.iis.nsk.su/~vp/doc/lisp1.5/mccarthy.html
10:53:34 <krish> gilbertdeb: url ?
10:53:51 <gilbertdeb> check out the first url and tell me what you think.
10:53:55 <gilbertdeb> I'll get you the other one in a sec.
10:54:44 <gilbertdeb> oops. its just the first 2 chapters.
10:55:19 <krish> gilbertdeb: i have them already. 
10:55:28 <krish> gilbertdeb: the book is still in print.
10:55:30 <gilbertdeb> lisp1.5?
10:55:57 <krish> M expressions ?
10:56:18 <krish> M=> meta ?
10:56:24 <gilbertdeb> yes.
10:56:39 <gilbertdeb> S=symbolic.
10:56:45 <gilbertdeb> it was the first lisp manual...
10:56:50 <gilbertdeb> published ie.
10:57:02 <krish> there is also this translation of Oreilly's OCaml book
10:57:23 <gilbertdeb> but there is no free copy of STarting Forth because it is 'outdated'.
10:57:24 * krish feels OCaml is a brute of a compiler
10:57:44 <krish> ok. understood.
10:58:30 <gilbertdeb> whats your interest in lisp?
10:58:32 <gilbertdeb> do you use it?
10:58:51 <krish> just wanted to learn
10:59:01 <gilbertdeb> check out the 1.5 manual sometime.
10:59:05 <krish> sure.
10:59:06 <gilbertdeb> it is mildly interesting.
10:59:37 <gilbertdeb> he develops a complete lisp1.5 in lisp1.5
10:59:46 <gilbertdeb> I tried to emulate his hardwork in python ...
11:00:04 <gilbertdeb> but the damned thing had too many recursive calls so it crashed python.
11:00:42 <gilbertdeb> it took him about 3 months of paper/pencil interpreting to come up with the rough version he published in his paper.
11:02:39 <gilbertdeb> krish: another anecdote from SF
11:02:59 <gilbertdeb> the word execute is represented by a hooded executioner
11:08:11 <deluxe> krish: btw #knoppix
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11:10:29 <gilbertdeb> wb flyfly
11:12:40 --- quit: flyfly (Client Quit)
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11:15:13 <gilbertdeb> wb flyfly
11:21:35 --- quit: krish (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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11:29:54 --- nick: futh -> thin
11:30:00 <Robert> Hi (fu)thin
11:30:05 --- mode: ChanServ set +o thin
11:30:07 <thin> werd
11:30:12 --- mode: thin set -t
11:30:12 --- mode: ChanServ set +t
11:30:22 --- nick: thin -> futhin
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11:32:07 --- mode: futhin set -t
11:32:09 <gilbertdeb> moinmoin
11:46:28 <Speuler> hoi
11:52:12 <Robert> Speuler is terug!
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11:53:43 <ramnull> What it be? What's up I440r?
11:54:31 <Robert> Hi
11:54:51 <ramnull> Any of you guys play with ColorForth?
11:55:03 <gilbertdeb> Forth mysticism?
11:55:09 <Robert> Trying to implement a colored Forth ;)
11:55:16 <gilbertdeb> no. I am a lay forther still faithfully reading SF
11:55:22 <ramnull> Well, not exactly.
11:55:28 <ramnull> Heh.
11:55:32 <futhin> ramnull: you play with chuck's forth ?
11:55:44 <ramnull> futhin: I have been.
11:55:50 <futhin> robert & gilbertdeb: could you please say more intelligent stuff ??????? fucking idiots
11:56:04 <gilbertdeb> huh?
11:56:44 <ramnull> futhin: ColorForth is a little too minimalistic for my taste, but it has given me some(what I think are) good ideas.
11:56:54 <Robert> futhin: ...
11:57:09 <futhin> why would you say "<gilbertdeb> Forth mysticism?"  ?
11:57:17 <gilbertdeb> futhin: that is what I consider it to be.
11:57:22 <gilbertdeb> why does it matter to you?
11:57:37 <futhin> cause it's noise
11:57:43 <Robert> futhin: What, of what I'm saying, don't you understand?
11:57:48 <futhin> noise degrades the channel
11:57:58 <gilbertdeb> from what to what?
11:58:01 <gilbertdeb> for who?
11:59:46 <futhin> gilbertdeb: that's all you say everytime somebody says something about forth.  you say similar things to "forth mysticism"  you make references to chuck moore being a god, etc etc
12:00:01 <gilbertdeb> so what?
12:00:39 <ramnull> Anyways, I've been reading up on the Linux framebuffer and been considering creating an accelerated Forth shell.
12:00:42 <gilbertdeb> look, if you want to ban me go ahead.
12:00:44 <gilbertdeb> I don't care.
12:01:06 <I440r> ramnull: i want to do some frame buffer stuff in isforth when i got my assembler written!!
12:01:15 <I440r> do some sort of 3d gfx engine etc :)
12:01:42 <ramnull> I440r: I've been looking at IsForth myself for just this sort of thing.
12:01:54 <I440r> cool!
12:02:12 <I440r> doing FB isnt that difficult in linux - theres text on the subject on linuxassembly.org
12:02:22 * ramnull nods
12:02:37 <ramnull> I saw the framebuffer tutorial.
12:03:11 <ramnull> My assembler skills are a bit limited at the moment, but I'm taking the time to brush up.
12:03:40 <I440r> good. anyone who wants to code high level should definatly learn assembler too
12:04:24 <ramnull> My idea would hold on to some of general concepts of the ColorForth interface, yet it wouldnt be nearly as "amish" as what Chuck Moore has put together.
12:05:32 <ramnull> I'm thinking and editor that supports transparency with background manipulation of objects and such.
12:05:55 <ramnull> My thoughts are really quite chaotic at the moment though.
12:07:15 <ramnull> I440r: What are your ideas?
12:07:26 <I440r> about what?
12:07:29 <I440r> frame buffer ?
12:07:49 <I440r> thats just an idea in the back of my mind right now, its on the "way down the road" todo list heh
12:09:33 <ramnull> I440r: That's good. IsForth appears, at least to my amateurish perspective, to have alot of potential. Personally I would really focus on stabilizing and optimizing it before moving into the Framebuffer area.
12:10:16 <ramnull> I440r: I should create a texinfo doc and a manpage for it.
12:10:29 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: have you written a forth?
12:11:24 <I440r> ramnull: when i have the assembler i will write a metacompiler. the plan is then to have every vocabulary compile into a completely seperate buffer. this will give you the ability to totally discard an entier vocabulary on turnkey
12:11:42 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: No I havent actually. I've written a very small Lisp and an interpreter along the lines of the J language though.
12:11:43 <I440r> for instance... the COMPILER vocabulary.  all of this vocabulary is DEAD WOOD in a turnkeyd application
12:11:55 <gilbertdeb> J? as in j/apl?
12:12:18 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Yep. I'm also a fan of the K language.
12:12:23 <gilbertdeb> wow.
12:12:25 <gilbertdeb> urls?
12:12:26 <I440r> im not having a man page, im working on a block file editor and im going to have all the isforth help in block files. saying "help blah" will display the help for that word
12:12:42 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: www.kx.com
12:12:50 <gilbertdeb> you don't own kx do you?
12:12:56 <ramnull> No.
12:13:00 <gilbertdeb> I am talking of your j :)
12:13:09 <gilbertdeb> I have seen k
12:13:35 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: I'm just one of a few hackers interested in playing with language tools outside the norm.
12:13:46 <gilbertdeb> I still don't know where the db engine and the gui engine hide in k
12:13:58 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: yay !
12:14:40 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: I've been toying with Icon as well. The only "Industrial Strength" language that I use regularly is Ada95.
12:15:17 <gilbertdeb> I would like to learn snobol sometime.
12:15:23 <gilbertdeb> not enough docs unfortunately.
12:15:31 <gilbertdeb> I've been looking at setl ...
12:15:45 <gilbertdeb> luckily some of the good things in icon are in python.
12:15:48 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Theres a Snobol compiler built into the GNU Ada compiler.
12:15:53 <gilbertdeb> :O
12:15:54 <gilbertdeb> really?
12:15:59 * ramnull nods
12:16:01 <gilbertdeb> complete?
12:16:05 * ramnull nods
12:16:19 <gilbertdeb> is it an  easter egg?
12:16:22 <ramnull> The guy that invented Snobol now works for Ada Core Technologies.
12:16:28 <gilbertdeb> Griswold?
12:16:43 <ramnull> Or rather, co-invented.
12:16:56 <ramnull> Robert Dewar.
12:17:15 <gilbertdeb> isn't that the guy who wrote about threaded code and wrote a good portion of setl
12:17:22 <gilbertdeb> and then wrote the first ada in setl?
12:17:28 <ramnull> I'd like to see a Forth that supports seperate compilation, ala Ada.
12:17:37 * ramnull nods
12:18:04 <ramnull> Forth, Assembler, and Ada are my favorites, because they dont pretend to be anything other than what they are.
12:18:08 <gilbertdeb> so do they hide a setl compiler in the ada compiler too?
12:18:18 <TreyB> ramnull: don't say that sort of thing in here too loudly, as I440r will not like it :-)
12:18:24 <ramnull> No. Seti is a seperate app.
12:18:28 <I440r> heh
12:18:32 <gilbertdeb> no setl
12:18:34 <gilbertdeb> with an 'l'
12:18:36 <gilbertdeb> set language.
12:18:49 <ramnull> errr...let me adjust my fonts.
12:18:54 <I440r> forth doesnt need to pretend to be anything else, it can be anything it wants to be :/
12:19:09 <ramnull> I4404: My point exactly.
12:19:31 <futhin> ramnull: there are some compiler forths.  what do you mean by separate compilation?
12:19:33 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Dont know about setl.
12:19:49 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: I think robert dewar was one of the people responsible for it.
12:19:59 <gilbertdeb> I just didn't know he was responsible for snobol as well.
12:20:38 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: He was one of the muscle guys behind snobol. (The best way I can describe it.) There were others involved as well.
12:21:51 <gilbertdeb> neat.
12:22:02 <gilbertdeb> he is a forther in disguise.
12:22:46 <ramnull> futhin: i.e. If a procedure/function calls another procedure/function, then all the originating procedure needs a definition of what the second procedure or function expects rather needing the entire source file.
12:23:46 <ramnull> futhin: Good for finding errors at compile time rather than at run-time. Great for large projects.(Such as what one would find at the U.S. DoD
12:23:47 <ramnull> )
12:24:06 <gilbertdeb> is that why you use Ada?
12:24:48 <futhin> the originating procedure sends the minimal definition of what the second procedure expects (is that what you said? )
12:24:58 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Partially. Good for projects involving lots of people. Been considering making a Forth/Ada interface package.
12:25:24 <gilbertdeb> hmmm. ever looked at erlang?
12:25:45 <ramnull> futhin: That's the general idea. To make sure the "inputs" and "outputs" are kosher.
12:26:29 <ramnull> futhin: The app may not compile to a full executable, but it can be used to statically check all the possible points of failure.
12:27:00 <futhin> ramnull: what does that have to do with forth?  words pass parameters thru the stack, and they only pass the minimal number of parameters to the next word, and never more than 3 parameters..
12:27:31 <I440r> futhin the limit of 3 parameters is bogus
12:27:35 <I440r> there ARE no limits
12:27:36 <futhin> ;)
12:27:49 <I440r> there is sanity and stupidity however :)
12:27:53 <futhin> more than 3 parameters if you are a shitty coder
12:28:19 <I440r> or if its appropriate
12:28:39 <ramnull> And Ada function calls, like Forth, have no theoretical limits on the number parameters that can be passed on the stack. Although the syntax is quite strict in that regard.
12:28:57 <I440r> ramnull what about limits on return values like in c
12:29:43 <ramnull> I440r: No limits. But you do have explicitly define how many return values the function is to expect.
12:30:00 <ramnull> ramnull: Forth is much more flexible in this regard.
12:30:14 <ramnull> Blah.
12:30:25 * ramnull is going to get some coffee
12:30:35 <I440r> well there are times when a function returns X results but you only need some of them
12:30:37 <futhin> a word really only accepts a limited amount of parameters
12:30:43 <I440r> you have to explicatly DROP the ones you dont need
12:30:43 <futhin> therefore its limited
12:30:49 <futhin> unless the word is a crazy one
12:31:29 * ramnull is back
12:32:28 <ramnull> Yeah, the Ada runtime(if you chose to compile it in) would give you an error message telling you to "refactor"(using Forth terminology) your code in that case.
12:32:28 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: what did you write your little j in?
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12:32:57 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: C
12:33:07 <gilbertdeb> how complete is it?
12:33:11 <gilbertdeb> url if any?
12:33:56 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: It was a project I did back in High School. (Looking around here for the source code.)
12:34:21 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Dont have a website.(Although I really should make one.)
12:34:38 <gilbertdeb> there is a j wiki isn't there?
12:34:53 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Yeah.
12:35:07 <gilbertdeb> it wants to be pasted.
12:35:15 <gilbertdeb> how large did you make your array?
12:35:22 <gilbertdeb> 1000x1000 ?
12:35:54 <ramnull> http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_programming_language
12:36:35 <gilbertdeb> hehe, i meant your code wanted to be pasted there :D
12:37:02 <ramnull> I did it something like 1264x1024 or something like that, trying to optimize it.
12:37:32 <ramnull> Shit, it's on my tape backup.
12:37:58 <ramnull> I'm gonna start burning this stuff to CD-ROM.
12:39:02 <gilbertdeb> I like k a little better though.
12:39:37 <gilbertdeb> terribly interesting that.
12:39:47 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: K is about 1000x faster than J. It would make a great metacompiler if the source were open.
12:40:45 <gilbertdeb> how did they make it so fast AND put a sql-db in there as well?
12:40:52 <gilbertdeb> the whole thing is about 200k?
12:40:54 <gilbertdeb> less?
12:41:07 <gilbertdeb> AND you can write gui apps in that too!!!
12:41:38 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Well, as I understand it, the K database runs in a seperate "thread". And the GUI is mil-spec.
12:41:53 <ramnull> I'm a little fuzzy on the details myself.
12:42:25 <gilbertdeb> but all in about 200-500k?
12:42:50 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Well, the K compiler itself is only about 15k.
12:42:56 <gilbertdeb> at this point, I am tempted to use words like mysticism.
12:43:40 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: The kdb database is written in K, and they claim it has one loop in the entire source.
12:44:04 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Look at some of the user submissions and you'll see what I mean.
12:44:23 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Should be on thier docs page.
12:44:27 <gilbertdeb> how did you come to hear of it?
12:44:45 <ramnull> gilbertdb: It was mentioned in a discussion over on Slashdot.
12:45:10 <ramnull> I was curious, so I took a peak at it.
12:45:58 <ramnull> The syntax looks like Perl on Amphetamines.
12:46:21 <gilbertdeb> has anyone else done anything close enough to k{db,gui} in the size they have?
12:47:01 <ramnull> Not that I'm aware of. Although the folks over at radsoft.net have come pretty close with C.
12:47:29 <gilbertdeb> you've seen rebol right?
12:47:42 <gilbertdeb> yeah, it was forth inspired :D
12:48:12 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: I've only taken a cursory look at Rebol. Dont know much about it.
12:48:24 <gilbertdeb> k (130KB) and kdb (50KB) 
12:48:47 <gilbertdeb> that takes some cajones
12:48:54 <ramnull> gilbertdb: Yeah, but it's runtime is much smaller.
12:49:07 <ramnull> How they pulled that off, I'll never know.
12:49:21 <gilbertdeb> if it is that small, it can be ummm.
12:49:43 <gilbertdeb> <mumble> disomethinged </mumble>
12:50:31 <ramnull> Personally, I think making things small only requires the use of the computer between our ears. Something lacking in todays world of OOP abominations.
12:51:24 <gilbertdeb> ah coming from an Ada programmer?
12:51:27 <ramnull> Java and C++ programmers being the worst offenders.
12:51:33 <gilbertdeb> isn't ada large and bureaucratic too?
12:52:18 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: The language is large, but it was designed for embedded programming. I've seen Ada executables as small as 10k that do quite a bit.
12:52:29 <gilbertdeb> :O
12:52:54 <I440r> it was invented for the aerospace industry
12:52:56 <ramnull> In fact, if you look at www.sparkada.com, you'll see what I mean.
12:53:09 <gilbertdeb> 404
12:53:27 <gilbertdeb> nm
12:54:19 <ramnull> Forth is great for individual programmers. Ada is good for large PROFESSIONAL teams. I would think that the two could compliment each other well.
12:54:39 <ramnull> Of course, I'm not a "professional" yet.
12:55:12 <futhin> forth is morphable
12:55:27 <futhin> what do you think of morphing forth in the ada direction ?
12:55:53 <gilbertdeb> forth has a different approach to programming.
12:56:10 <gilbertdeb> in a different world, it would have had 'oriented' somewhere in its approach.
12:56:11 <gilbertdeb> methinks.
12:56:16 <ramnull> futhin: Well, Forth could benefit from a few aspects of Ada, but I wouldn't go fooling around with the fundementals of language itself.
12:56:43 <gilbertdeb> the fundamentals are said (by eforth) to be upto 31 words only.
12:56:51 <gilbertdeb> not too much to break there methinks.
12:57:40 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: Perhaps a "use" clause for specififying which dictionary the Forth should use and when would be helpful.
12:58:22 <ramnull> I've been drinking too much caffiene.
12:58:23 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: take a look at rebol sometime.
12:58:34 <gilbertdeb> it says it has the same approach as forth for programming.
12:58:38 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: I'll do that.
12:58:51 <gilbertdeb> you create words, and then you string the words together 
12:58:57 <gilbertdeb> and that is your program!
12:59:17 <ramnull> gilbertdeb: But does it have the same low level flexibility of Forth?
12:59:33 <gilbertdeb> no, it is'nt designed for nitty gritty stuff.
12:59:38 <gilbertdeb> no chip level work.
13:00:04 <ramnull> It still sounds interesting.
13:00:12 <gilbertdeb> it was written in C, runs on 40something platforms or so...
13:00:27 <ramnull> Can I create the really tiny binaries I'm so fond of? Heh.
13:00:39 <gilbertdeb> and it packs all the internet protocols and a gui thingy too.
13:00:55 <gilbertdeb> ramnull: it is interpreted.
13:01:09 <gilbertdeb> for really tiny binaries, see <1024k asm programming :D
13:01:10 <ramnull> I'll check it out.
13:01:41 <ramnull> I'm really interested in Framebuffer and OpenGL hacking at the moment though.
13:01:58 <gilbertdeb> yeah I don't know what the framebuffer is.
13:02:00 <futhin> everyone, think about "1k gui" :P
13:02:18 <ramnull> I440r: Have you looked at the Enlightenment "Evas" project?
13:02:25 <futhin> gilbertdeb: man framebuffer
13:02:38 <gilbertdeb> there is an os written in fasm that fits on a floppy and has a gui.
13:02:53 <ramnull> I gotta lurk for a few minutes. Gotta go pick up my dad from the hospital.
13:03:09 <ramnull> Be back in about 15 minutes or so.
13:03:36 <gilbertdeb> no manual entry for framebuffer
13:03:45 <gilbertdeb> I knew it didn't exist in my reality :D
13:04:12 <futhin> man -k framebuffer ?
13:04:48 <futhin> gilbertdeb: when you are in console mode, if you have 50 lines instead of 25 lines you are in framebuffer mode
13:04:49 <gilbertdeb> inneresting.
13:05:12 <gilbertdeb> i see an Xvfb
13:05:21 <I440r> brb rebooting after kernel compile
13:05:25 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
13:05:30 <gilbertdeb> and a qtvfb.
13:06:34 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:06:38 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #forth
13:06:49 <futhin> framebuffer is a console thing
13:07:21 <gilbertdeb> ah cool.
13:07:23 <futhin> if you turn on framebuffer mode, you can even use a framebuffer server for X instead of svga server or whatever you use
13:07:47 <futhin> the framebuffer has been responsible for new development in console applications
13:07:50 <futhin> such as graphical web browsers
13:08:17 <gilbertdeb> hmmm.
13:08:31 <gilbertdeb> is it in anyway related to svgalib?
13:08:35 <gilbertdeb> the thing seejpeg uses?
13:09:33 <futhin> heh, i've never successfully gotten seejpeg to work
13:09:51 <gilbertdeb> I used to have it on freebsd.
13:09:56 <gilbertdeb> pretty neat.
13:11:12 <futhin> seejpeg somepicture.jpg
13:11:14 <futhin> nothing would happen
13:11:20 <futhin> i looked at man, tried the switches
13:11:27 <futhin> it made my screen go black
13:11:28 <futhin> that's all
13:11:29 <futhin> :/
13:11:37 <gilbertdeb> I had to compile svga or somesuch into the kernel.
13:11:42 <futhin> well i got it working once
13:11:46 --- quit: Kitanin ("Client killed by developer sick of answering stupid questions.")
13:11:50 <futhin> but it displayed it really crappy
13:11:59 <futhin> low resolution
13:12:04 <futhin> that's the nice thing about framebuffer
13:12:13 <futhin> lets you display pictures in higher resolution i guess
13:12:45 <gilbertdeb> which webbrowser is written for it?
13:15:29 <futhin> well lynx and some of the others have become more graphical
13:15:40 <futhin> but the Zen browser was graphical from the start..
13:16:25 <gilbertdeb> Zen?
13:17:05 <gilbertdeb> wow.
13:17:07 <gilbertdeb> I see it.
13:17:55 <futhin> http://www.nocrew.org/software/zen/
13:18:25 <futhin> looks like development on it has stopped
13:18:36 <futhin> same version since last time i looked at it
13:18:39 <futhin> a year ago
13:19:00 <futhin> might be wrong
13:19:45 <futhin> links has some basic graphics support
13:21:18 <gilbertdeb> I like links.
13:23:29 <gilbertdeb> this is neat. I always wondered if  there were X alternates.
13:36:30 --- quit: gilbertdeb (""Monk has left the building"")
13:40:50 <ramnull> Back.
13:42:13 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust138.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
13:42:27 <ramnull> Hey I440r!
13:42:48 <I440r> hi
13:42:55 <I440r> had to recompile the kernel again heh couldnt get online cuz i goofed
13:43:10 <I440r> i accidently included pcmcia netowrk support in my kernel and that NEVER EVER EVER works
13:43:13 <ramnull> I440r: New patch for the kernel?
13:43:48 <I440r> gotta have NO kernel support for pcmcia network devices and download the pcmcia_cs package
13:44:10 <ramnull> Gotcha.
13:44:14 <I440r> no im trying to fix my sensors stuff - not having any luck with this kernel
13:44:54 <ramnull> I'm kinda ambivalent about my kernel, if it works then it works. Heh.
13:45:24 <I440r> heh
13:45:38 <ramnull> Ever considered porting IsForth to Gas?
13:45:41 <I440r> it works - its just the sensors stuff no longer works. im on a laptop - sensors are usefull
13:45:48 <I440r> FUCK THAT
13:45:52 <ramnull> Ah, I see.
13:46:04 <I440r> if gas was the only option i would not have bothered with isforth at all
13:46:10 <I440r> gas is an absolute abomination
13:46:16 <I440r> :/
13:46:17 <ramnull> Heh. I see.
13:46:22 <I440r> gas is not an assembler
13:46:28 <I440r> its the REAR END of a c compiler
13:47:14 <ramnull> Well, NASM works well enough. I wonder if Inprise ever ported TASM to Linux.
13:47:42 <I440r> i asked eric isaacson if he would port A386 to linux but he refused :/
13:48:22 <ramnull> Yeah, A386 is a package I wouldn't mind paying for if it support *nix.
13:48:40 <I440r> i did pay for it :)
13:49:01 <I440r> if nasm didnt exist i would probably have used that to create isforth for linux
13:49:23 <I440r> i would have run the assembler in a dos emulator and hard coded all the elf stuff
13:49:36 <ramnull> Dont suppose the Free/Open Source community could create an equal alternative? Nasm is good, but it doesnt match A386.
13:50:09 <I440r> nasm developers seem to think nasm is better than a386. i think the a386/d386 package is the best assembler development tools ever devised
13:50:45 <ramnull> I started off with the A86 back in my BBS days.
13:51:47 <I440r> heh a86 is how i learned x86 assembler
13:51:48 <ramnull> Wonder if anyone has done a systematic comparison of the two.
13:52:19 <I440r> doubt it. but i now know what the "footprint in the code" is with a86
13:52:54 <I440r> he is probably encoding a mov source, destination with the D bit set to flip the direction
13:53:53 <ramnull> Hmmm...what would that approach offer?
13:54:23 <I440r> it would allow him to tell if YOU had created an application with his assembler without your having registered it
13:54:29 <ramnull> Aside from trying to emulate Gas? Heh.
13:54:41 <I440r> he can look at an executable and say that "this was assembled with my assembler"
13:54:56 <ramnull> Gotcha.
13:55:12 <I440r> you still enter it in "mov dst, src" format in the source
13:55:19 <I440r> he just flips it arround in the object code
13:55:53 <I440r> he probably has a few other tricks like that :)
13:55:54 <ramnull> Well, I suppose I could just put a bunch of Opcodes in the data section to foil that approach.
13:56:06 <I440r> there is no data section.
13:56:14 <I440r> the x86 is NOT harvard architecture dammit!
13:56:22 <I440r> everything is readable. everything is writeable.
13:56:25 <ramnull> True.
13:56:51 <I440r> which is why the first thing isforth does is sys mprotect its entire address space as +rwx
13:56:55 <ramnull> I tend to think in those terms though. Though I guess I should stop.
13:57:13 <I440r> its the way the industry thinks
13:58:28 <ramnull> Hmmm....I wonder if one could use the "everything" approach to implement Aspect Oriented Programming without the Object Oriented overhead.
13:58:53 <I440r> i think all structured programming methods are bogus
13:58:55 <I440r> ALL of them
13:59:12 <I440r> take the old time JSP
13:59:25 <I440r> lets say we each worked on the same project but not together
13:59:35 * ramnull is listening
13:59:37 <I440r> you worked it all out following the rules of JSP to the letter
13:59:40 <I440r> i do the same
13:59:49 <I440r> we have identical problems and have followed identical rules
13:59:59 <I440r> we will end up with IDENTICAL CODE!!!!!!!!!!!
14:00:02 <I440r> not similar
14:00:02 <I440r> identical
14:00:29 <ramnull> Eh, maybe. I'm not so sure I would take it that far though.
14:00:31 <I440r> structured programming methods totally destroy the CREATIVITY of the coder
14:00:52 <I440r> jsp works by constructing a diagram for the input data
14:00:59 <I440r> followed by a diagram for the output data
14:01:19 <I440r> you then combine these (according to the rules) and get a sort of flow chart
14:01:29 <I440r> you use this to create your actual code from
14:01:40 <I440r> the "identica code" assumes were using the same language of corse
14:01:43 <ramnull> Personally, I feel that as long as the coder documents thier code extensively(ala DO-178B) then problems should be minimal.
14:01:48 <I440r> theres no HUMAN factor
14:02:08 <I440r> as long as they document it AFTER they create it
14:02:35 <I440r> there should be no "this is what im going to do"
14:02:43 <I440r> because you cannot guarantee you can do it that way exactly
14:02:54 <ramnull> I440r: I document during creation. Sort of like Donald Knuth's Literate Programming.
14:02:55 <I440r> because until you start to solve a problem you cannot know whats involved
14:03:50 <I440r> so you spend a great deal of time modificating the "this is what im going to do" plan
14:03:56 <I440r> waste of time
14:03:56 <ramnull> Hence anyone reading my code can actually follow me reasoning in coming to a solution, each step in my reasoning process.
14:03:58 <I440r> HUGE waste of time
14:04:13 <I440r> im a bit lax with my documentation at the moment
14:04:55 <ramnull> I understand your point, but I wouldnt take it to that extreme.
14:05:09 <I440r> you mean the "being lax" extreme?
14:05:12 <I440r> no thats bad heh
14:05:34 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
14:05:49 <I440r> but having worked in the industry and seen everyone want me to write a detailed exacting action plan FIRST.....
14:05:54 <ramnull> Even chip designers have to actually design something.
14:05:59 <I440r> ive come to the conclusion that they are all fucking morons
14:06:10 <ramnull> Your right.
14:06:22 <I440r> hardware design in LIGHTYEARS ahead of software design
14:06:23 <ramnull> I dont write an action plan before.
14:06:34 <I440r> to be a hardware designer you have to have a clue for a start
14:06:49 <I440r> they let anyone code. SPECIALLY the clueless
14:06:59 <ramnull> But rather I write my code first, then a comment explaining what I just wrote.
14:07:38 <ramnull> Well, I can be pretty clueless at times. One has to know thier limitations.
14:08:07 <I440r> i do. i ignore them in an attempt to expand them :)
14:08:17 <I440r> im persistent too :)
14:08:28 <ramnull> Thats the idea.
14:08:56 <I440r> where are u located again ?
14:09:08 <ramnull> Michigan. USA. You?
14:09:14 <I440r> indiana.
14:09:19 <I440r> any jobs there ?
14:09:37 <ramnull> A few. Mostly Clerical. I work at UPS right now.
14:09:51 <I440r> no. i mean real jobs - coding.
14:09:59 <I440r> specifically real time embedded 
14:10:06 <I440r> something NOT requiring OOP.
14:10:16 <I440r> oop is mutually exclusive with everything
14:10:18 <ramnull> Yeah. There is an Aerospace company here that's hiring.
14:10:30 <I440r> would you give em my resume ?
14:10:55 <ramnull> They're on the web.
14:11:33 <I440r> who are they  ?
14:11:35 <ramnull> Also, apply at UPS, they're looking for programmers for thier warehouse operations.
14:11:46 <I440r> i dont do database stuff
14:11:51 <I440r> i dont know any of it
14:11:58 <ramnull> No database stuff.
14:12:04 <I440r> unless they want it all coded in forth :)
14:12:31 <ramnull> Controlling Diverters, Scanners, Dot Matrix cameras, etc...
14:12:44 <I440r> embedded ?
14:12:48 <I440r> you applied ?
14:12:49 <ramnull> Yup.
14:12:59 <ramnull> Yeah. Dont think I'll get the job though.
14:13:06 <I440r> y ?
14:13:30 <ramnull> They want people with degrees and experience in this sort of thing. I'm still in college.
14:13:46 <I440r> aha. i got no degree :)
14:14:00 <ramnull> Yeah, but you got experience, yes?
14:14:12 <I440r> some :)
14:14:20 <ramnull> IsForth should catch thier attention.
14:14:42 <ramnull> CareerMatrix.com lists a bunch of tech jobs in my area.
14:15:43 <I440r> ill work anywhere that honors the 2nd :)
14:16:00 <I440r> i.e. not california, ill-annoy or prnj
14:16:09 <I440r> or dc
14:16:18 <futhin> prnj?
14:16:28 <I440r> peoples republic of new jersey
14:16:49 <ramnull> Yeah.
14:16:51 <ramnull> Heh.
14:17:10 <ramnull> Michigan honors the 2nd.
14:17:13 <I440r> i know
14:17:24 <futhin> 2nd is the right to what
14:17:25 <I440r> it even honors my permit. theres reciprocity between mi and in
14:17:34 <futhin> the right to bear arms
14:17:39 <I440r> the second allows me to shoot the bad guy :)
14:17:58 <ramnull> I live in the Grand Rapids area. Nice place. It's a small tech haven.
14:17:59 <I440r> is it "bear arms" or "bare arms" ?
14:18:02 <I440r> i can never remember heh
14:18:20 <I440r> i know - i worked at bf-goodrich in grand rapids on a contract a while ago :)
14:20:15 <ramnull> Theres plenty of office jobs. The help wanted ads have plenty of computer related jobs. Not necessarily embedded programming though.
14:20:35 <ramnull> But hey, these days you gotta take what you can get.
14:20:46 <I440r> ive not had anything in 2 years
14:21:02 <futhin> bear not bare
14:21:08 <futhin> bare is the wrong word
14:21:21 <futhin> bear with me.  bear arms.
14:21:53 <futhin> i440r: take what you can get
14:22:59 <I440r> ill take what i can do
14:23:37 <ramnull> I440r: I guess while your banging on the internals of IsForth, I'll be up here toying with extending it to the framebuffer.
14:23:57 <I440r> cool
14:25:01 <ramnull> I'm really thinking ColorForth --> GLForth. Antialiased text, 3D realtime graphical manipulation/code visualization. Heh.
14:25:28 <ramnull> Real transparency.
14:25:29 <futhin> yeah that would be great
14:25:34 <futhin> like postscript
14:25:36 <futhin> except its forth
14:25:56 <I440r> get frame buffer working then worry about graphics primatives like dot/line/texture/space-ship heh
14:26:03 <futhin> i was thinking of copying the graphic words from postscript into forth
14:26:04 <futhin> it's 2d
14:26:06 <ramnull> Sort of like(but not exactly like) what Raster and the E team are doing with thier Enlightenment project.
14:26:20 <futhin> but could be extended to 3d graphics
14:27:01 <I440r> i was thinking of doing a ray casting type engine first
14:27:10 <I440r> like doom - not a true 3d engine
14:27:23 <ramnull> futhin: Well, I wouldn't make the text 3d, but rather put in automated 3D code visualization routines, displayed behind a transparent editor window. And updated in real-time.
14:27:55 <ramnull> It would require a fast compiler/metacompiler.
14:28:09 <I440r> isforts compiler is fast
14:28:14 <I440r> :)
14:28:20 <ramnull> I440r: That it is.
14:29:32 <deluxe> if you go for real/vector 3d, i'll join :-)
14:29:37 <ramnull> And with those fundementals set up, one could create "Shell-mode" for scripting purposes. I dont know, call it "fsh".
14:29:46 <futhin> ramnull: i'm just talking about implementing the basic graphic words to do 2d stuff in forth.   moveto, lineto, rmoveto, rlineto, gsave, grestore, etc
14:29:49 <I440r> i will - but i was thinking of walking before i try run :)
14:30:28 <futhin> fool! fly first!
14:30:28 <ramnull> Good point. I'm always getting ahead of myself.
14:30:41 <futhin> fly before running and run before walking
14:30:48 <ramnull> A lot of stuff to learn before we can reach that point.
14:31:16 <ramnull> At least for me.
14:32:05 <ramnull> Hell, we'd need an OpenGL lib for starters. All kinds of things to figure out in that area.
14:33:00 <ramnull> Mesa, GGI, Forth implementation, asm implementation, blah blah? Gotta get the framebuffer stuff down first.
14:33:54 <ramnull> As you can see, I move in breadth before I reach depth. Heh.
14:35:09 <ramnull> Of course a good Forth OpenGL lib would be an oppourtinity to demonstrate the speed/flexibility of Forth/IsForth.
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14:38:14 <futhin> nobody is going to be coding in 10 years.  operating systems won't exist
14:38:27 <futhin> it'll all be evolved
14:38:51 <Herkamire> futhin: bullshit
14:39:13 <Herkamire> we haven't made a heck of a lot of progress in the last 10 years, what gives you such hope for the future?
14:43:22 <futhin> we've been evolving circuits, etc thru GP (genetic programming) for more than 5 years now (or close to that).   sooner or later we're going to figure out how to evolve more complex things like operating systems and applications.  evolving things is so much faster, we don't have to understand any of it in order to produce technology thru evolving them.
14:43:40 <futhin> evolving other technology too
14:44:13 <futhin> we've already evolved technology that we don't understand how it works
14:44:31 <futhin> in electronics
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14:44:50 <futhin> the circuits are more efficient, and were easier to create
14:44:59 <futhin> only taking a few weeks on a beowulf cluster
14:45:27 <futhin> technology of the future will be created with no understanding of how it works
14:45:43 <futhin> and all the scientists and physicists will be struggling to keep up ;)
14:46:04 <Herkamire> you still have to tell the computer what you want it to accomplish. that's programming. even if the computer figures out the particulars of how it's going to accomplish that.
14:47:30 <futhin> yes, you have to give it the parameters of how to determine fitness of each "algorithm"
14:47:50 <Herkamire> yup. and that's programming :)
14:48:22 <Herkamire> in my experience there are few cases where it's easier to write the fitnes-tester than it is to write a good program
14:50:25 <ramnull> bbl. Got some hacking to do.
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14:50:47 <futhin> we haven't really done much evolving of actual programs yet
14:50:53 <futhin> that's still an issue to be tackled
14:51:02 <futhin> however, with electronics, we've already had successes
14:51:19 <futhin> exceeding something that could be designed by humans
14:53:16 <futhin> i wonder if forth would be the best way to go
14:53:29 <futhin> forth is nicely compartmentalized..  full of words
14:53:39 <futhin> make some higher level words
14:53:42 <futhin> string them together
14:53:53 <futhin> start evolving..
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15:03:41 <futhin> maybe 10 years is a bit optimistic, but certainly 20 years.  the internet has transformed our world in little more than 10 years (although it's been around longer than that)
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15:46:33 <Herkamire> 20 years is optimistic.
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16:40:38 <futhin> hey mrreach :)
16:40:43 <MrReach> hihi!
16:43:06 <I440r_> mrreach!
16:43:10 <I440r_> lol guess you got the message :)
16:43:15 <MrReach> I440r_!
16:43:25 <MrReach> yessuuum!
16:43:32 <I440r_> futhin has been twiddling his thumbs waiting for you :)
16:43:45 <I440r_> at least i THINK it was his thumbs :)
16:44:13 * MrReach grins, "Yep, he's got me roped into pm already"
16:44:22 <I440r_> :)
16:45:42 <futhin> heh
16:46:35 <MrReach> I440r_: what's the deal with your house?
16:46:40 <I440r_> its sold
16:46:57 <MrReach> are you paying rent?
16:46:59 <I440r_> i got 2 weeks unless we can do something about it with the corp that purchased it
16:47:07 <I440r_> dunno.
16:47:22 <MrReach> WERE you paying rent?
16:47:27 <I440r_> no.
16:47:45 <MrReach> ok, you stopped making payments and let the bank take it back?
16:47:51 <I440r_> we were buying it. but after 9/11 i been out of work. my father had a short time between contracts too and the bank defaulted us
16:47:57 <I440r_> demanded 100% NOW or we sell
16:47:59 <I440r_> well they sold
16:48:24 <I440r_> didnt LET them. my father has been making payments but there was a short time when we couldnt. 
16:48:31 <I440r_> so they fucked us over
16:48:33 <MrReach> yep, and someone has a bankruptcy on their record?
16:48:53 <I440r_> i guess if my father had talked to them they would have cut us some slack but im thinking he didnbt bother
16:49:08 <MrReach> who was getting the notices?
16:49:53 <MrReach> that rather sucks
16:50:25 <MrReach> you could have gotten roommates or SOMETHING ... the pictures indicated a fairly nice house
16:50:45 <I440r_> my father was dealing with that - i just left it to him. it doesnt matter, i have somewhere i can go - HE doesnt
16:51:02 <MrReach> I bet you're ready to throttle him
16:51:21 <I440r_> nah. i just take it in my stride, its GOD testing me
16:51:35 <MrReach> good attitude
16:51:46 <Herkamire> I440r_: might I suggest lowering your standards a bit so you can actually get a job?
16:52:01 <I440r_> i do. but im not taking a job im not capable of
16:52:20 <MrReach> have you found a way to effeciently relocate code/header segments w/o a whole bunch of patching?
16:52:39 <MrReach> was thinking about that yesterday
16:52:59 <I440r_> relocating headers is easy, relocating code not so easy.
16:53:07 <futhin> i440r: maybe you should have taken responsibility with the house.. gotten roommates or something.  it's YOUR house after all
16:53:11 <I440r_> the relocator has to be x86 instruction encoding aware
16:53:17 <MrReach> it's fine if it's all in one big block
16:53:56 <MrReach> but once there's more than one block that might load differently relative to each other, things get complicated
16:54:19 <MrReach> I440r_: why does it??
16:55:08 <MrReach> wifey is home
16:55:12 <I440r_> you cant just relocate a function, you have to relocate all references TO that function too
16:55:19 <MrReach> yep
16:55:41 <I440r_> which means understanding how said function/variable/buffer offset/address is addressed
16:55:46 <I440r_> not trivial
16:55:57 <Klaw> futhin: i read the same thing about physics  of the 80s
16:56:00 <MrReach> well, if it's code, yo can move it around as a block with not ill effects (as long as calls are relative)
16:56:03 <Klaw> hah, delayed by 8 hrs
16:56:15 <Klaw> scrollbar should change colors when i'm scrolled up.
16:56:24 <MrReach> brb
16:56:33 <I440r_> they arent in isforth :)
16:57:07 <futhin> klaw: physics of 80s ?
17:01:37 <Klaw> futhin: was replying to something you said earlier..
17:01:54 <Klaw> one of those quantum mechanics for dummies books was written in the 80s, saying the exact same thing you did
17:02:01 <futhin> klaw: about GP/evolving stuff ?
17:02:05 <Klaw> <futhin> technology of the future will be created with no understanding of how it works
17:02:06 <Klaw> <futhin> and all the scientists and physicists will be struggling to keep up ;)
17:03:33 <futhin> klaw: electronic circuits have already been evolved that are better than human developed circuits and defy understanding
17:04:00 <MrReach> no, they don't defy understand
17:04:03 <MrReach> not yet
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17:06:34 <MrReach> I440r_: do you ever think about optimising compilers?
17:07:30 <I440r_> yes  - some day i might add it as an option to isforth but im opposed to compilers doing things behind your back 
17:07:46 <MrReach> oh, of course
17:07:56 <MrReach> forgot about that
17:08:00 <I440r_> i would do it as a "fun" experiment 
17:08:28 <I440r_> plus - altho im opposed im not SO opposed that i refuse to entertain it as an option for YOU
17:08:36 <I440r_> eventually... maybe
17:08:48 <MrReach> I was thinking the forth needs an opensource compiler on the scale of the GNU compiler
17:09:53 <TreyB> heh
17:10:12 <MrReach> where a great number of man-hours goes into the optimiser with each new generation of chip
17:10:49 <MrReach> of course, we'd never have the number of developers as gnu C
17:11:58 <I440r_> ugh the gnu compiler is horrible!
17:12:15 <MrReach> does it not produce exellent binaries?
17:12:24 <TreyB> For the most part, it does.
17:12:49 <futhin> GNU C's compiler is hindered by the fact it's compiling C
17:12:57 <MrReach> agreed, it's a real behemoth with that intermediate language
17:13:01 <futhin> if it wasn't compiling C it'd produce a lot better code ;)
17:13:14 <TreyB> But in that respect it does a pretty good job at compiling C.
17:13:27 <MrReach> futhin: the same compiler compiles C, Fortran (and I think Algol)
17:13:44 <futhin> compiling C probably has a lot of "exceptions to the rule" compared to forth..
17:14:13 <MrReach> actually, forth is worse in that regard
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17:14:27 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:14:33 <MrReach> the C compiler isolates you from the hardware in an extreme manner
17:14:41 <MrReach> hiya, TheBlueWizard
17:15:10 <TheBlueWizard> hiya MrReach
17:15:31 <MrReach> "When you've seen one forth system, then you've seen one forth system"
17:15:53 <TheBlueWizard> MrReach: there are certain assumptions C language makes about the computer architectures....
17:16:11 <futhin> mrreach: i mean, compiling C (and especially optimising) requires the compiler to memorize all these special unique cases in order to produce the most optimized code for each "special case"
17:16:28 <MrReach> oh, ok
17:16:45 <MrReach> I should think that would depend more on the processor than on the language
17:16:45 <TreyB> MPE and iForth have both proven you can get excelent performance from native forth.  MPE even gets good performance from more than one target architecture.
17:17:09 <MrReach> TreyB: don't forget SwiftForth
17:17:44 <TreyB> SwiftForth doesn't quite reach the same level of performance, but it comes close.
17:17:58 <MrReach> is the iforth peephole optimiser any good?
17:18:31 <TreyB> They do produce excelent code, but I think it takes them more effort on a per-target basis.  I can't prove that, though.
17:18:47 <MrReach> heh, of course it does ... that's obvious
17:19:40 <TreyB> It boils down to compiler design.  I fully expect Forth, Inc. to move in the same direction as MPE and iForth.
17:19:56 <MrReach> how are they different now???
17:20:24 <I440r_> iforth compiles so well it can compete with the best optimizing c compilers
17:21:40 <TheBlueWizard> pardon my gross ignorance...are MPE and iforth commercial Forth?
17:21:45 <TreyB> MPE and iForth model dataflow to and from the stacks and generate "optimal" code.  SwiftForth uses slew of rules and peephole optimization.
17:21:52 <MrReach> MPE is commercial
17:21:52 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r_ BTW :)
17:21:57 <I440r_> yes
17:22:02 <I440r_> iforth is marcel hendrix
17:22:12 <MrReach> yes, but iforth is not free
17:22:13 <I440r_> MPE is an english company i believe
17:22:14 <TreyB> It costs $100US.
17:22:23 <I440r_> thers a free version of it tho i think
17:22:34 <TreyB> iForth has no free version.
17:22:49 <I440r_> no ?
17:22:50 <TreyB> MPE has a trial version, just like Forth, Inc.
17:23:02 * TreyB owns a copy of iForth.
17:23:06 <I440r_> i was sure there was a demo version of it heh. ive not realy looked at it. other than the writeups etc
17:24:37 * TreyB will return after he puts his kids to bed.
17:24:45 <MrReach> ok, TreyB
17:27:22 <MrReach> where the HELL is iforth? why isn't it listed at taygeta???
17:28:30 <futhin> google for it
17:28:49 <futhin> http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/
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17:29:39 <MrReach> thank you
17:29:43 <futhin> hm, he's changed his page
17:32:10 <I440r_> oh tbw lol - hi :)(
17:32:30 <TheBlueWizard> :)
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17:39:39 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Speuler
17:39:54 <MrReach> hihi
17:45:40 <MrReach> bye!
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17:56:42 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...have to get up at 3:45 AM tomorrow...bye all
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