00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.25
00:01:14 <Klaw> re krish: why bother
00:17:58 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth
01:18:05 <onetom_> re
01:18:18 --- nick: onetom_ -> onetom
02:12:18 <fridge> Klaw: I just read that and thought the same thing
02:13:33 <fridge> the 'features' look very javaish
04:18:34 --- quit: Soap` ()
06:11:58 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
06:12:53 <Herkamire> mornin' forthers
06:19:15 --- join: tathi (~josh@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
06:39:18 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950F2F6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
06:52:16 * fridge forths forth in a forthish manner
07:09:18 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust108.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
07:17:40 <deluxe> hello master ;-)
07:17:44 <deluxe> howdie
07:17:56 <I440r> lol
07:18:15 <I440r> the master just got up. ive been mastering sleep :)
07:19:14 <deluxe> oh. which time zone?
07:23:35 <I440r> im in indiana :)
07:24:32 --- quit: deluxe ("bb")
07:25:13 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950F2F6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
08:32:24 --- join: gilbertdeb (~gilbert@fl-nked-ubr2-c3a-29.dad.adelphia.net) joined #forth
08:32:29 <gilbertdeb> hello
08:58:05 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:58:00 <gilbertdeb> why are operating systems developed in C?
10:02:46 <TreyB> Why do you think people develop OSes in C?
10:03:59 <gilbertdeb> popularity I guess?
10:04:02 <gilbertdeb> better libraries?
10:04:09 <gilbertdeb> s/better/larger/
10:04:20 <gilbertdeb> what do you suppose it is?
10:08:25 <TreyB> Lots of reasons: well-known and efficient compilers, large body of knowledge, etc.
10:12:20 <gilbertdeb> the first unix was written in asm.
10:12:36 <gilbertdeb> hmmm.
10:35:04 --- join: krish (KRISHNAKUM@61.1.220.228) joined #forth
10:35:41 <krish> hi ppl.
10:37:53 <Robert> Hi :)
10:42:45 <gilbertdeb> Robert: did you have to buy the Activel board?
10:43:02 <Robert> Activel?
10:43:09 <gilbertdeb> ARM
10:43:24 <gilbertdeb> the ARV?
10:43:35 <Robert> Ah..
10:43:36 <gilbertdeb> the board thing ...
10:43:41 <Robert> Atmel AVR :)
10:43:43 <Robert> Yeah, I bought it.
10:43:49 <gilbertdeb> was it expensive?
10:44:54 <Robert> Yeah :/
10:45:04 <Robert> About 100 USD
10:45:08 <gilbertdeb> :O
10:46:49 <gilbertdeb> but the avr is based on the ARM right?
10:48:36 <Robert> No
10:48:46 <Robert> But Atmel are making ARM based µcs too
11:09:04 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
11:32:33 <gilbertdeb> what is the AVR based on then?
11:33:17 <Robert> Hmm..
11:33:18 <Robert> No idea.
11:33:21 <Robert> Itself? :)
11:38:03 <gilbertdeb> so how is your robertforth coming along?
11:39:04 <krish> how about RooF ?
11:39:29 <krish> Robert's  o (invent something) o (...) Forth ?
11:41:12 --- join: PoppaVic (~pfv@s93.waters.gtlakes.com) joined #forth
11:41:32 <krish> gilbertdeb: MMIXWare is free ?
11:41:51 <PoppaVic> OK.. Anyone using PFE? I'm trying to locate a popen/etc capability...
11:42:22 <Herkamire> what's PFE? I keep seeing that
11:42:34 <krish> Portable Forth Env.
11:42:34 <PoppaVic> http://pfe.sourceforge.net/
11:42:53 <PoppaVic> I like it a few cunthairs more than gforth.
11:43:05 <gilbertdeb> krish: I think so.
11:43:17 <gilbertdeb> I know I have seen some ports for freebsd.
11:43:24 <gilbertdeb> but I have done nothing with it myself.
11:43:40 <PoppaVic> But, to get some shit accomplished, I need popen & friends, if not fork & whatnot.
11:44:07 <krish> gilbertdeb: MMIXWare is not free. you need to be a member of Springer books
11:44:33 <gilbertdeb> bah. they can go to hell.
11:45:32 <krish> gilbertdeb: tried MMIX ?
11:45:56 <gilbertdeb> no not at all.
11:46:04 <gilbertdeb> I am still not done with the math bit.
11:46:11 <gilbertdeb> heeeavy going.
11:46:50 <krish> maybe someone will translate the code from MMIX to a stack machine ...
11:47:02 <gilbertdeb> Krishforth perhaps?
11:47:12 <gilbertdeb> KrishforthMmix
11:48:09 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
11:48:37 <krish> i thought only I was dreaming (its 1:30 am in my timezone)
11:52:19 --- quit: deluxe (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:52:29 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950F2F6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
11:53:49 <krish> deluxe: whatz the latest on Iraq ?
11:54:33 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth
11:55:39 <deluxe> hello krish
12:02:51 <krish> deluxe: whatz the latest on Iraq ?
12:03:35 <krish> these days, sourceforge is very unreliable ...
12:05:13 <gilbertdeb> unreliable in what sense?
12:05:50 --- join: futh (~blal@198.162.22.60) joined #forth
12:06:08 --- quit: futh (Client Quit)
12:06:11 <krish> most of the time I get host not found ...
12:06:29 * krish yawns ....
12:06:44 <krish> time to sleep.
12:06:47 <krish> bye guys!
12:06:52 <gilbertdeb> bye
12:07:03 --- quit: krish ("Client Exiting")
12:27:46 --- join: futh (~blal@198.162.22.60) joined #forth
12:28:00 --- nick: futh -> futhin
12:28:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
12:28:58 <gilbertdeb> whereis chanServ?
12:29:03 <gilbertdeb> did he/she/it dissapear?
12:29:13 <futhin> it'll be back probably
12:29:25 <gilbertdeb> why does it come here?
12:29:47 <Robert> gilbertdeb: Hehe... I'm working at it ;)
12:30:05 <gilbertdeb> robert are you doing it in octal or in asm?
12:30:28 <futhin> gilbertdeb: it comes here because i activated that feature in the channel settings
12:30:41 <futhin> it's presence here gives me a warm fuzzy feeling
12:30:47 <Robert> gilbertdeb: Binary, of course.
12:31:47 <gilbertdeb> ah so it comes because of you!
12:31:53 <gilbertdeb> Robert: seriously?
12:32:32 <Robert> gilbertdeb: No...
12:32:38 <futhin> one of the main ways of converting recursive algorithms to iterative algorithms is using a stack.  fortunately forth already has a stack in place for us, so we don't need to use recursive at all.  the recursive algorithm converted to iterative is still secretely recursive, the return stack is recursive.
12:33:00 <Robert> gilbertdeb: I'm coding one of the Forths (for AVR) in Forth, the other one (IA-16) in assembly.
12:33:55 <gilbertdeb> interesting futhin.
12:33:58 <gilbertdeb> I didn't know that.
12:34:38 <gilbertdeb> Robert: why not in octal ? :P
12:34:47 <Robert> Pfff.. die!
12:34:55 <gilbertdeb> binary is too 'primitive'.
12:35:04 <Robert> Nah.
12:35:13 <Robert> Only a bit. hexadecimal is perfect.
12:35:22 <gilbertdeb> hexadecimal is ... how you say?
12:35:26 <gilbertdeb> too complicatement?
12:35:49 <Robert> No.
12:35:53 <gilbertdeb> futhin: is there a way to do this conversion by hand?
12:35:58 <Robert> 2^4 is the perfect base :)
12:36:05 <Robert> 2^3 really isn't.
12:36:13 <gilbertdeb> Robert: for the x86 it is :D
12:36:20 <gilbertdeb> and I have proof.
12:36:49 <futhin> gilbertdeb: what conversion?
12:36:59 <gilbertdeb> futhin: recursive-iterative
12:37:18 <gilbertdeb> I was wondering if it is as straight forward as the conversion from infix to postfix?
12:37:42 <Robert> gilbertdeb: Heh, well, that's only since there are 8 registers, 8 addressing modes etc.
12:37:54 <Robert> gilbertdeb: x86 is octo-centered (pff.. nice word)
12:38:03 <gilbertdeb> it is octo-centered.
12:39:46 <gilbertdeb> proof: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5mf0qv%24900%40omnifest.uwm.edu&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
12:40:44 <futhin> the recursive algorithm is still "recursive"..  the return stack handles that recursiveness for you
12:41:02 <futhin> the algorithm becomes iterative when you add in the return stack code as part of the algorithm
12:41:19 <futhin> forth comes with two stacks, which makes your recursive algorithms into iterative..
12:41:35 <gilbertdeb> mine?
12:41:39 * gilbertdeb looks around.
12:41:42 <gilbertdeb> :P
12:41:48 * gilbertdeb has two stacks :D
12:41:55 <futhin> but there are further modifications to convert..  i should talk to i440r about his iterative algorithms..
12:42:06 <gilbertdeb> futhin: are they flawed?
12:42:28 * gilbertdeb is guessing futhin is probably lurking in #lisp or #scheme someplace.
12:43:08 <futhin> no not flawed
12:43:29 <Robert> Heh.
12:43:52 <gilbertdeb> you are a schemer aren't you?
12:44:04 <futhin> only for get rich quick purposes
12:44:09 <gilbertdeb> :D
12:44:34 <gilbertdeb> I read someplace that iterative algorithms were really just recursive algorithms with syntatic sugar.
12:44:46 <gilbertdeb> is that correct?
12:44:55 <gilbertdeb> meaning REcursion begat iteration.
12:45:12 <gilbertdeb> and iteration took over because it didn't have to be functional(tm)
12:45:17 <futhin> nah
12:45:42 <futhin> most algorithms are iterative any way you look at it
12:46:13 <gilbertdeb> so is it then the other way around?
12:46:49 <futhin> those algorithms that can be represented as recursive can be converted to iterative
12:46:54 <futhin> recursive algorithms tend to be inefficient
12:47:01 <futhin> converting them to iterative is better.
12:47:11 <gilbertdeb> inefficient except for ... ?
12:47:23 <futhin> consumes more cycles and memory
12:47:25 <Robert> Sometimes recursive ones are easier to understand.
12:47:28 <futhin> lots of pushes, etc
12:47:48 <gilbertdeb> tail recursive algorithms are supposedly 'better' somehow.
12:47:51 <futhin> yeah that's why recursive algorithms are still around
12:47:54 <futhin> easier to understand
12:48:31 <gilbertdeb> but translating from a recursive algorithm to an iterative one should then be a matter of well, translation no?
13:00:32 <futhin> probably
13:00:41 <futhin> need to talk to i440r or see his algorithms..
13:00:49 <futhin> i might be wrong
13:00:58 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
13:02:07 <Herkamire> "recursive" is a particular way you can implement iterative algorithms
13:02:19 <Herkamire> recursion that is
13:02:21 <gilbertdeb> isn't it the other way around?
13:02:26 <Herkamire> no
13:02:36 <gilbertdeb> the way I got to understand it was that it was YAKOL
13:02:40 <gilbertdeb> Yet another Kind of Loop.
13:02:43 <Herkamire> iterative means you do the same thing over and over [with the results of last time]
13:03:22 <Herkamire> you can implement it with a loop or recursion. tail recursion amounts to the same thing as a loop (just different syntax)
13:04:51 <Herkamire> (not tail) recursion is often slower than a loop because it uses a stack for at the very least the return addresses. If you are looping say 400,000,000 times, that could be a serious memory problem
13:05:25 <Herkamire> C is infamous for slow recursion, but some other languages to it very well.
13:05:33 <gilbertdeb> yes my few experiences with n! has taught me a lot.
13:05:41 <gilbertdeb> like scheme right?
13:06:05 <Herkamire> probably. I don't know scheme
13:06:23 <Herkamire> I think that's one of the languages that pushes for recursion
13:08:34 <gilbertdeb> lately I've been wondering.
13:08:41 <gilbertdeb> why on earth do we really need an OS?
13:09:00 <Herkamire> so you can run buggy software
13:10:09 <gilbertdeb> I am beginning to think CM is not that kooko afterall.
13:10:40 <Herkamire> hehe :)
13:10:43 <Herkamire> not at all
13:11:37 <Herkamire> the more kludgy, crappy complex software I wade through, the more I want to lose the OS and make my own
13:12:03 <gilbertdeb> but basically the os exists as an interface to the hardware right?
13:12:13 <Herkamire> yes.
13:12:28 <gilbertdeb> more or less, a HUGE library that lets you not have to do so many things by hand.
13:12:37 <Herkamire> and it shares the hardware amung multiple programs. and tries to make it so the programs can't interfere with eachother
13:12:40 <gilbertdeb> but why has it become a cult by itself?
13:13:20 <gilbertdeb> granted, I use linux. 
13:13:32 <gilbertdeb> been a freebsd user since '99 too :)
13:13:40 <gilbertdeb> and a long time dos hater.
13:20:05 <Herkamire> I use linux because I can do stuff with it now
13:20:22 <Herkamire> and my code can work on other people's computer
13:22:55 <gilbertdeb> portability.
13:35:35 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust115.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
13:38:54 <gilbertdeb>  ok
13:38:54 <gilbertdeb> 3 2 1  ok
13:38:54 <gilbertdeb> >r swap r> Segmentation fault
13:38:54 <gilbertdeb> gilbert@kendall:~$
13:38:59 <gilbertdeb> I440r: ^
13:40:15 <I440r> hi
13:40:36 <I440r> so it does
13:40:42 <gilbertdeb> on yours as well.
13:40:44 <I440r> try not doing it on the command line :/
13:40:54 <gilbertdeb> I didn't.
13:41:04 <I440r> doing >r ... r> outside of a colon definition isnt guaranteed to work
13:41:18 <I440r> ill see if i can find out why that happens tho :)
13:45:38 --- quit: deluxe ("bb")
13:57:07 --- join: deluxe (~deluxe@pD950F2F6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #forth
14:08:49 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
14:29:38 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood)
14:30:05 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust115.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
14:53:31 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:53:33 --- join: skylan (sjh@207.164.213.134) joined #forth
14:57:19 --- quit: TreyB ()
15:18:48 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
15:23:31 --- quit: skylan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:23:35 --- join: skylan (sjh@Riverview62.tbaytel.net) joined #forth
16:05:11 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc2-login1.megatrondata.com) joined #forth
16:12:09 --- quit: deluxe ("bb")
17:56:47 --- quit: tcn ()
19:05:34 --- join: TreyB (~trey@cpe-66-87-192-27.tx.sprintbbd.net) joined #forth
19:13:58 --- join: Speuler (~Speuler@mnch-d9ba4427.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #forth
19:33:39 <gilbertdeb> for all those who fear postfix.
19:33:52 <gilbertdeb> $1 is pronounced 1 dollar.
19:34:08 <gilbertdeb> written in postfix, prnounced in postfix.
19:34:15 <gilbertdeb> s/postfix/prefix in the first line.
19:35:07 <gilbertdeb> lemme try that again.
19:35:45 <gilbertdeb> postfix 101. $1 is pronounced 1 dollar.
19:35:53 <gilbertdeb> the number (from the stack) comes first :)
19:52:52 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-68-123.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
20:10:53 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
20:49:09 <Klaw> 8%
20:49:13 <Klaw> the number comes first too
20:49:39 <gilbertdeb> so the idea isn't _that_ foreign
20:49:51 <Klaw> are you sober?
20:49:59 <gilbertdeb> yes.
20:50:01 <gilbertdeb> you?
20:50:10 <Klaw> I'm going to back away slowly.
20:50:20 <gilbertdeb> why is that?
20:50:33 <gilbertdeb> do you only talk to !=sober people?
20:50:42 <Klaw> keep spinning
20:51:06 <gilbertdeb> why is that?
20:51:14 <gilbertdeb> did I say something 'non sober' sounding?
20:52:19 <Klaw> your point was one I might otherwise attribute to someone distracted from an adequate point
20:52:37 <gilbertdeb> I am lost now.
20:53:17 <gilbertdeb> I came to the realisation only because I was wondering a little why it seemed so odd to have <number> <operator>
20:53:41 <Klaw> it seems so odd because it is not tought that way
20:53:49 <Klaw> generally when something is different, we call it odd
20:54:01 <Klaw> grammar goes in every direction
22:23:12 --- quit: gilbertdeb (Remote closed the connection)
23:47:06 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.03.25