00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.03.20
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00:49:55 <krish> hi !
00:50:00 <krish> Speuler: are you there ?
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01:11:35 <ramnull> Hey. I44or drop in here lately?
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07:06:10 <gilbertdeb> hullo
07:06:16 <Robert> Hi 
07:07:24 <gilbertdeb> Robert: do you do anything with literate programming?
07:08:07 <Robert> I don't even know that that is.. please explain :)
07:08:48 <Robert> I'm going outside for a bit. See you :)
07:08:55 <gilbertdeb> you are running away?
07:09:05 <Robert> Yes!
07:09:07 <Robert> You're so scary.
07:09:08 <Robert> Bye
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09:35:27 <krish> hi all!
09:35:37 <Robert> Hi :)
09:35:50 <krish> how are callbacks implemented in forth ?
09:53:05 <Robert> '  and  execute.
09:53:32 <Robert> : call-a-function  ." Now I'm calling it!" cr  execute  ." Done." cr ;
09:53:43 <Robert> : test  ." Hello, there!" cr ;
09:53:49 <Robert> ' test  call-a-function
09:54:14 <krish> cool
10:10:12 <Speuler> 'morning
10:10:18 <Speuler> :)
10:10:19 <gilbertdeb> :)
10:11:00 <Speuler> oh those bluddy html people have made a real mess here
10:11:07 <gilbertdeb> where?
10:11:07 <krish> hi Speuler!
10:11:30 <Speuler> left a presentation server in perfect shape
10:11:59 <Speuler> now i have been chasing all those wrong links and files/directories expected on different paths the whole day
10:12:04 <Speuler> hi lrish
10:12:07 <Speuler> krish
10:12:15 <Speuler> how's your rating doing ?
10:12:36 <Speuler> ther's one directory, which was required on 4 ! different locations
10:12:58 * Speuler grumbles
10:13:24 <Speuler> as if those folks don't do any testing on their stuff at all
10:13:31 * Speuler grumbles even more
10:13:37 <krish> tumbling down ...
10:13:44 <krish> 2118 now from a high 2295
10:13:50 <Speuler> oh
10:13:59 <Speuler> i don't need to catch up.
10:14:04 <Speuler> i can just outwait it :)
10:14:56 <Speuler> aargh 
10:15:03 <Speuler> more 404s
10:15:22 <Speuler> t'is even not my work
10:17:15 <Speuler> now i'm into typical win-losers problems
10:17:58 <Speuler> CAPITALIZED directory names while the links there are in small letters
10:18:14 <krish> having fun 
10:18:21 <Speuler> not at all
10:18:23 <Speuler> i hate it
10:18:40 <Speuler> thanks for bearing with me
10:18:55 <Speuler> i may grumble a little bit more
10:18:59 <gilbertdeb> for filename in `ls -F` ; do tr [A-Z] [a-z] ; done
10:19:10 <gilbertdeb> for filename in `ls -F` ; do tr $filename [A-Z] [a-z] ; done
10:19:12 <gilbertdeb> I think.
10:19:13 <Speuler> hehe
10:19:22 <Speuler> and the documents (html) with pointers to those ?
10:19:41 <krish> Speuler: there is a nice tool for fixing things like these
10:19:43 <gilbertdeb> I normally use bluefish in order not to go crazy .
10:19:47 <krish> its called htmllint i gues
10:19:47 <gilbertdeb> bluefish and weblint ...
10:19:52 <Speuler> right now i "fix" it by using   ln -s
10:20:39 <Speuler> i suppose none of those can fix a link which doesn't exist because it is somewhere else
10:21:06 <Speuler> or decide where to put it if it is required in different locations
10:21:24 <Speuler> i'll just make it working again
10:21:26 <Speuler> they fix it
10:21:36 <Speuler> symbolic links are fine for that purpsoe
10:21:38 <Speuler> pose
10:24:58 <Speuler> gave me at least a nice access card
10:25:07 <Speuler> free flight team :)
10:26:09 <Speuler> those carzy folks going up by balloon and oxygen masks, and jump out with a hangglider
10:26:12 <Speuler> crazy
10:26:57 <Speuler> not that i'm so keen on trying that myself
10:27:06 <gilbertdeb> you should.
10:27:16 * Speuler likes to feel solid ground under his feet
10:27:28 * krish too
10:27:35 * krish scared of heights
10:27:44 * Speuler too
10:28:05 <Speuler> well, mountains are all right
10:28:26 <gilbertdeb> roller coasters?
10:28:53 <Speuler> the recent models of roller-coaster alike i don't like
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10:28:58 <Speuler> the free-fall ones
10:29:36 <xeno_> hi... a couple of questions... how is Forth doing, is it worth learning even if I'm not going to use it? and what is the Book[tm] on Forth?
10:29:37 <Speuler> bunjee jumping is also not my thing
10:30:11 <Speuler> beats me
10:30:16 <Speuler> :)
10:30:43 <Speuler> how do you know you'd not use it if you learn it ?
10:30:44 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: the Books on forth are supposedly Starting Forth, Thinking Forth.
10:31:39 <Speuler> "is it worth getting a driver license even though i'll never go stearing a car" ?
10:31:57 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: it is different sort of language.
10:32:17 <Speuler> ignore me. i'm grumpy today
10:32:35 <xeno_> Speuler: I don't know if I'm not going to use it, but that's been the case for about 15 languages so far...
10:32:43 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: do you know rebol?
10:33:03 <krish> guys: Forth is a bit tough getting used to. especially the stack manipulation. But the fact is I really like this thing - 
10:33:07 <Speuler> xeno_: about forth they say it is a very polarizing thing.
10:33:16 <xeno_> gilbertdeb: nah, looked at it once, thought it looked like a new basic, and didn't bother more...
10:33:20 <gilbertdeb> krish: the stack manipulation stuff is not hard at all.
10:33:25 <Speuler> if you like it, you never do anything else again, the say too
10:33:28 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: try googling for rebol forth
10:33:38 <gilbertdeb> you might find some interesting relevant comments about it.
10:33:42 <krish> the challenge of running ur mind backwards is too good to resist.
10:33:44 <xeno_> krish: well, I've written my share of PostScript, so the stack thingie is no problem for me
10:34:02 <Speuler> good foundation
10:34:09 <Speuler> now for the power :)
10:34:28 <krish> where can I find the complete word list ?
10:34:35 <gilbertdeb> krish: type word
10:34:38 <gilbertdeb> no words
10:34:44 <gilbertdeb> or go to the ansforth website.
10:34:52 <gilbertdeb> most words can be viewed with 'see word'.
10:35:17 <Speuler> xeno_: since i've learned forth, many other languages seem to have lot's of shortcomings
10:35:41 <gilbertdeb> krish eg ... (2 + a) * b == (2 a + ) * b == b (2 a +) * == b 2 a + *
10:35:57 <krish> no. I meant a document that I can open in a seperate window 
10:36:13 <krish> i'll look for ans word lists
10:36:38 <krish> simple postfix expressions are not a problem.
10:36:40 <gilbertdeb> xeno this is pretty good too: http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/93-09-080
10:36:45 <xeno_> Speuler: the languages I usually program in are O'Caml, lisp, Ada95 and (unfortunately) java
10:36:57 <Speuler> ocaml has a good name
10:37:07 <Speuler> lisp is not so far from forth
10:37:18 <Speuler> on ada and java i won't comment
10:37:20 <krish> its when I start writing a new word, I've to setup the stack - thatz where the prob. starts.
10:37:28 <krish> Lisp is pretty good.
10:37:30 <krish> nifty
10:37:39 <gilbertdeb> krish the forth words for stack manipulation are not too many.
10:37:49 <gilbertdeb> thats where the SF book supposedly makes its mark :)
10:37:51 <krish> yes. and am getting used to it.
10:38:15 <Speuler> krish: standard method of learning forth is to write an interpreter :)
10:38:21 <gilbertdeb> heheh.
10:38:34 <xeno_> Speuler: :)
10:38:35 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: the author of forth learned lisp from mccarthy .
10:38:37 <krish> i'd prefer a small app.
10:38:39 <gilbertdeb> he was greatly influenced.
10:38:40 <Speuler> xeno_: seriously
10:38:49 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: take a look at speuler's bashforth.
10:38:54 <gilbertdeb> www.forthfreak.net
10:39:05 <krish> Speuler: can you send me a recent photo of urs ?
10:39:29 <gilbertdeb> krish: why don't you fly to speuler :P
10:39:35 <Speuler> though i wonder whether it can still be called "educative", starts to get feature-loaded
10:39:42 <Speuler> which wan't the original intention
10:39:45 <xeno_> Speuler: ok, if writing an interpretes is the way of learning it... is there a (cheap) ISO/ANSI standard?
10:39:51 <krish> Speuler: how about forthbash ?
10:39:52 <gilbertdeb> ah yes bashforth v < 32 I think.
10:40:06 <Speuler> krish: are you female ?
10:40:12 <krish> no man.
10:40:15 <gilbertdeb> with a name like krishna?
10:40:16 <xeno_> gilbertdeb: bashforth? forth written in bash?
10:40:22 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: precisely.
10:40:24 <Speuler> krish: will look for a scary photo then
10:40:25 <krish> just wanted to check ur hair condition :-)
10:40:30 <gilbertdeb> and the author is speuler.
10:40:49 <xeno_> gilbertdeb: sounds horrible... I write bash continously, but I don't really like it
10:40:55 <gilbertdeb> hehehe.
10:41:10 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: if you understand bash, you can read bashforth and write forth in anything else you want.
10:41:14 <krish> Speuler: how about bash in forth interpreted by bashforth ?
10:41:27 <gilbertdeb> that would be ugly krish
10:41:32 <xeno_> sure there's no standard?
10:41:41 <krish> why ?
10:41:44 <Speuler> xeno_: there is
10:41:56 <gilbertdeb> xeno_: there is.
10:42:01 <xeno_> Speuler: where, and how much ½½$$$?
10:42:02 <Speuler> basically, there are two of them
10:42:11 <krish> the draft copy is free
10:42:12 <Speuler> downloadable
10:42:15 <krish> right ?
10:42:17 <xeno_> where?
10:42:25 <krish> google it.
10:42:29 <Speuler> google dpans 94
10:42:55 <Speuler> that the draft of the ansi standard
10:43:10 <Speuler> the other standard, the previous one, is f83
10:43:24 <Speuler> older ones can be neglected
10:43:26 <krish> has anyone read Mastering Forth ?
10:43:50 <krish> after searching for 2 hrs. I found a very old copy of it in a local bookstore
10:44:32 <krish> for Rs. 150 ~= $3
10:45:21 <gilbertdeb> good job krish.
10:45:26 * krish checking the score of India V Kenya cricket world cup semifinals.
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10:45:31 <gilbertdeb> a number of people swear by it.
10:45:41 <gilbertdeb> Cricket?
10:46:43 <Speuler> found a phote where my hair is considerably shorter than what i'm wearing now :)
10:46:45 <Speuler> photo
10:46:55 <gilbertdeb> he took off.
10:47:02 <gilbertdeb> something about kricka
10:47:06 <gilbertdeb> croquet?
10:47:14 <gilbertdeb> something.
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11:02:41 <Speuler> poland is facing being eliminated from the EC candidate member list because of supporting an illegal war
11:03:00 <gilbertdeb> innnteresting.
11:03:09 <gilbertdeb> which illegal war?
11:03:16 <gilbertdeb> and which wars have been legal?
11:03:18 <I440r> speuler stop 
11:03:20 <Speuler> it is against the statutes
11:03:34 <I440r> your talking out your ass
11:03:36 <Speuler> I440r: i'm not making that one up
11:03:51 <I440r> and as far as im concerned the eu can go fuck itself. specifically france and germany
11:04:04 <gilbertdeb> I440r: I take it you are for 'the war'
11:04:13 <gilbertdeb> also, you think we are doing 'a good thing'.
11:04:17 <gilbertdeb> ?
11:04:33 <I440r> fox news yeserday reported that they had concusive proof that the french have been training the irqaqui army
11:04:37 <I440r> they are already surrendering
11:04:50 <Speuler> "friendly feelings" however that is measured toward the us has fallen in some countries to below 15 %
11:04:58 <I440r> how long did it take for france to cave in to the germans in ww2 ???
11:05:02 <I440r> THREE fucking days
11:05:21 <gilbertdeb> I440r: they caved in out of guilt :D
11:05:29 <I440r> out of cowardice
11:06:00 <I440r> im 100% behind this war AND my president who IS acting according to law
11:06:21 <I440r> he is enforcing a un (wimps) resolution because THEY dont have the guts to do a fucking thing
11:06:26 <gilbertdeb> I440r: laws his country helped make up as a result of its victory.
11:06:32 <I440r> in all their years of existance the UN has accomplished not ONE fucking thing
11:06:33 <I440r> EVER
11:06:50 <gilbertdeb> I440r: the UN is as strong as its member states.
11:06:51 <I440r> the united nations should be abolished
11:07:07 <I440r> no. its only as strong as its weakest links
11:07:11 <I440r> i.e france and germany
11:07:19 <I440r> bunch of useless do nothings
11:07:40 <gilbertdeb> I440r: don't forget we won the war by a tiny tiny margin.
11:07:42 <Speuler> why abolish ? cancelling membership would do
11:07:47 <I440r> winson churchill called the second world war "the war that shold have been avoided"
11:07:50 <gilbertdeb> it was not a conclusive victory.
11:08:00 <I440r> it COULD have been avoided if all the stronger nations hadnt wimped out
11:08:10 <gilbertdeb> I440r: it could have been avoided if the rest of europe had not greedily feasted on germany after ww1
11:08:12 <I440r> all we had to do was go in. kill hitler, dismantle the german military machine
11:08:19 <I440r> and MILLIONS of lives would have been saved
11:08:36 <gilbertdeb> I440r: why aren't we doing the same with saddam?
11:08:45 <gilbertdeb> if it is so straight forward?
11:08:47 <I440r> we are not making the same mistake
11:08:54 <I440r> he might even be dead already.
11:08:58 <I440r> might not tho
11:09:11 <I440r> we dont know for sure
11:09:17 <Speuler> that would legalize an attack on,say, bush, by, say, some arab countries
11:09:18 <gilbertdeb> why don't we just declare victory and listen to rtd military personell?
11:09:31 <I440r> why should we
11:09:41 <I440r> we should COMPLETE this job. 
11:09:42 <gilbertdeb> he 'might' be dead.
11:09:59 <I440r> we shouldnt make the same mistate bush senior made, he pulled out with the job half done
11:10:01 <gilbertdeb> at whose expense I440r?
11:10:06 <I440r> because of political pressure
11:10:25 <I440r> out OUR expense. we are footing the bill for this war
11:10:31 <gilbertdeb> yes. 
11:10:44 <gilbertdeb> lets stop messing around in other countries and solve our own damned problems.
11:10:55 <I440r> i would rather pay for this war than have the thread of sadam or his lakeys sneaking up on me when my back is turned
11:11:07 <gilbertdeb> I440r: that is a bugaboo
11:11:12 <Speuler> the way bush does ..
11:11:21 <I440r> we are solving our own problems, these othe countries are a huge part of our problems
11:11:29 <gilbertdeb> I440r: no they ARE NOT!
11:11:32 <gilbertdeb> Get a clue.
11:11:39 <I440r> just keep telling yourself that
11:11:41 <gilbertdeb> our problems are internal.
11:11:52 <I440r> yes. we have internal problems too
11:11:55 <gilbertdeb> also, our problems involve unaccountability of foreign policy.
11:11:58 <I440r> we will never NOT have
11:12:07 <gilbertdeb> yeah, shouldn't we be fixing those?
11:12:21 <I440r> but we do NOT need external threats of harm against this country.
11:12:32 <gilbertdeb> I440r: North Korea has made a threat. 
11:12:36 <gilbertdeb> WE have not responded.
11:12:39 <I440r> we are the "havs" they are the "have nots"
11:12:41 <gilbertdeb> Saddam made NO threats.
11:12:49 <I440r> yes. they are more of a thread than sadam in MY opinion
11:13:06 <I440r> he didnt threaten openly. thats not the same as not being a threat
11:13:10 <gilbertdeb> but there is a more interesting story to tell on tv with saddam isn't there?
11:13:19 <gilbertdeb> I440r: mexico is a threat too then.
11:13:27 <gilbertdeb> we took texas forcibly remember?
11:13:37 <I440r> anyway - have you given up on bsd ?
11:13:44 <gilbertdeb> yes for now.
11:13:53 <I440r> if your in linux now are you messing with isforth ??? :)
11:13:59 <gilbertdeb> yes I am.
11:14:05 <I440r> cool :)
11:14:07 <gilbertdeb> /usr/local/bin/isforth
11:14:18 <I440r> thats where its going to be installed to eventually
11:14:25 <gilbertdeb> thats where it is now.
11:14:59 <I440r> when i have it in a stable condition ill make an install so it installs to there and the sources install to /usr/local/include/isforth or something
11:15:02 <I440r> im not sure yet
11:15:16 <gilbertdeb> whats keeping it unstable?
11:15:18 <I440r> i have to add "paths" to isforth
11:15:31 <I440r> its not unstable in the sense that it falls over alot
11:15:40 <I440r> its unstable in that its changing alot still
11:15:52 <I440r> the kernel doesnt change very often so IT is fairly stable
11:16:04 <I440r> but i still consider the overall package to be in a BETA state
11:16:55 <gilbertdeb> what happens after isforth?
11:17:14 <I440r> you mean "when isforth is finished" ?
11:17:42 <I440r> well. the whole reason for coding isforth is so that i can use it to develop forth applications
11:17:50 <I440r> isforth will never realy be finished
11:18:27 <I440r> but when its got the assembler and metacompiler etc ill be able to write some REAL applications with it
11:18:35 <gilbertdeb> you are beginning to remind me of Knuth and RMS
11:18:57 <I440r> like a web browser, irc server, web server, MUD server (requested by futhin :)
11:19:00 <I440r> what is rms ?
11:19:07 <gilbertdeb> richard m stallman
11:19:18 <I440r> oh
11:19:28 <I440r> no... rms is a cook
11:19:32 <I440r> heh
11:19:35 <gilbertdeb> ya think?
11:19:38 <gilbertdeb> and CM?
11:19:40 <gilbertdeb> and Knuth?
11:19:45 <I440r> being compared to knuth is a compliment tho heh
11:19:45 <gilbertdeb> also CM.
11:19:52 <gilbertdeb> I440r: he is a kook.
11:19:58 <I440r> cm is a cook yes - but his is ALSO pure genius
11:20:01 <gilbertdeb> he has run out of excuses to write the rest of his book.
11:20:14 <I440r> you mean theres MORE ???
11:20:19 <gilbertdeb> :O
11:20:21 <gilbertdeb> of course!
11:20:37 <I440r> lol
11:20:40 <gilbertdeb> not only is he adding the remaining volumes..., he is rewriting books 1-3.
11:20:57 <I440r> writing isforth has been (ans is still being) a great learning experience
11:21:14 <I440r> it also allows me to fuck arround in linux withouyt going ANYWHERE near a fucking c(rap) compiler
11:21:16 <gilbertdeb> a guru on being asked by his king said it would take 70 years.
11:21:24 <gilbertdeb> either the elephant or the king would be dead by then :D
11:21:52 <gilbertdeb> the task was to teach an elephant to read and write.
11:21:53 <I440r> whats that about the elephant ?
11:21:55 <I440r> what elephant
11:21:58 <I440r> aha
11:22:01 <I440r> lol
11:22:02 <I440r> right.
11:22:16 <gilbertdeb> thats the tactic knuth and RMS are using so far.
11:24:33 <gilbertdeb> I440r: are you gonna write an x86 asm in forth?
11:24:52 <I440r> yes. eventualy
11:25:06 <gilbertdeb> can you write one with the current wordset?
11:25:14 <gilbertdeb> s/wordset/vocabulary ?
11:25:40 * Robert yawns.
11:25:57 <I440r> yes i could
11:26:07 <I440r> or... it is possible to do so
11:26:22 <I440r> i cant say for sure that I PERSONALLY could... but im hoping i can heh
11:26:26 <I440r> ive already started
11:26:32 <I440r> check out src/ext/asm.f
11:26:32 <gilbertdeb> surely you can!
11:26:37 <I440r> you should have that in there
11:27:03 <gilbertdeb> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3gmn58%24rbk%40DGS.dgsys.com&output=gplain
11:27:11 <gilbertdeb> that should have all the 486 instructions :D
11:27:56 <I440r> i want all instructions for 386 to p6 including mmx, 3dnow, sse2 etc
11:28:07 <I440r> and fpu too - not that ill ever use fpu crap
11:28:29 <gilbertdeb> those things are just fancy shmancy multimedia crap right?
11:29:11 <I440r> ya
11:30:37 <gilbertdeb> so I440r did you determine what the minimal bootstrap forth was?
11:31:22 <I440r> for a minimal forth ?
11:31:33 <I440r> all you need to do is init the stacks and ip and jump to quit
11:32:12 <I440r> oh. DP has to be initialized too
11:32:30 <I440r> dont need to init tib because query/expect can do that
11:33:02 <gilbertdeb> lemme see.
11:34:03 <I440r> isforth has ALOT more to do than that - its BIOS demands it heh
11:34:08 <I440r> linux being my bios ;)
11:34:18 <gilbertdeb> wha?
11:34:54 <gilbertdeb> take a look at this: http://www.tinyboot.com/fig1.gif
11:34:56 <I440r> isforth is the operating system. linux is my BIOS :)
11:35:04 <gilbertdeb> now that is nutz.
11:35:24 <gilbertdeb> emacs is the OS, the resident OS is the bios.
11:35:38 <gilbertdeb> see a connection?
11:35:47 <I440r> erm... shaddap :P
11:35:50 <gilbertdeb> rms vs I440r?
11:35:58 <I440r> emacs is supposed to be an editor
11:36:02 <gilbertdeb> yeah.
11:36:10 <gilbertdeb> when it was still called teco
11:36:24 <gilbertdeb> I hear teco uses a forth-like language !
11:36:26 <gilbertdeb> is that true?
11:36:27 <I440r> isforth is supposed to be a complete development environment - including all libraries, debugger, assembler, compiler, interpreter, etc
11:36:36 <I440r> whats teco ?
11:36:43 <gilbertdeb> tape edtior and corrector.
11:36:49 <gilbertdeb> the grandpapa of emacs.
11:37:02 <gilbertdeb> openvms boxes still have them.
11:37:13 <I440r> thats a realy nice flow chart!!
11:37:20 <gilbertdeb> is that accurate?
11:37:28 <I440r> yes
11:37:31 <I440r> whose is it ?
11:37:50 <gilbertdeb> umm tinyboot's.
11:37:56 <gilbertdeb> I don't know who owns that though.
11:38:18 <I440r> ok
11:38:22 <I440r> ill have to contact them :)
11:38:55 <gilbertdeb> is this what isforth might be said to look like?
11:39:57 <I440r> its exactly how my inner loop works
11:40:09 <I440r> look at quit/interpret
11:43:59 <gilbertdeb> see ;uses causes a segfault
11:44:17 <gilbertdeb> see ;uses
11:44:17 <gilbertdeb> : ;uses
11:44:17 <gilbertdeb>   param
11:44:17 <gilbertdeb>   begin
11:44:17 <gilbertdeb>     last @ name> 1+ dup>r 4+ - r>
11:44:18 <gilbertdeb>     ! exit [compile] [ Segmentation fault
11:51:27 <I440r> where are you using it
11:51:34 <gilbertdeb> on my machine.
11:51:41 <I440r> your trying to define it ?
11:51:49 <gilbertdeb> I am just 'see'ing it.
11:51:53 <I440r> ohhh
11:51:56 <I440r> wait
11:52:17 <gilbertdeb> it all started innocently when I wanted to look at quit/interpret
11:52:21 <I440r> so it does heh
11:52:32 <I440r> ill fix that :)
11:52:34 <I440r> thanx :)
11:52:42 <I440r> or - i MIGHT fix it - i might not be able to atm
11:52:43 <gilbertdeb> did I *gasp* find a bug?
11:53:12 <gilbertdeb> I didn't find it did I? I run into one.
11:54:13 <I440r> no - i think i know whats doing this :)
11:54:20 <I440r> there are some things you just cant do heh
11:54:27 <gilbertdeb> like what?
11:54:27 <I440r> i have to "rethink" parts of "see"
11:54:46 <gilbertdeb> see reads what it does from the source right?
11:54:53 <I440r> well
11:55:10 <I440r> SEE assumes that "Begin" and "again/while/etc" are in the same definition
11:55:23 <I440r> look in src/kernel/compile.1 at ;code
11:55:27 <I440r> you will see its NOT 
11:55:32 <I440r> ive cheated
11:55:45 <I440r> the decompile cant handle some cheats heh
12:04:07 <gilbertdeb> I'm out.
12:04:10 <gilbertdeb> <--- school.
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12:13:09 <serg> hi I440r , hi all
12:13:51 <I440r> hi :)
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12:56:11 <mur> hello
12:56:17 <mur> ah
12:56:18 <mur> Terve
12:56:19 <mur> :)
12:56:45 <I440r> hi
13:04:39 <mur> what' happend?
13:12:53 <I440r> wow who is xeno ?
13:12:59 <I440r> thats a new name in here :)
13:13:06 <mur> away anyways
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15:00:56 <MrReach> hihi!
15:01:52 <I440r> hi :)
15:02:52 <MrReach> I was wondering how much thought you'd given to accessing various system resources
15:03:14 <MrReach> like evironment variables and OS signals
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15:03:46 <I440r> ill add signal handler creators eventually
15:04:01 <I440r> you can sort of search the environment already... my "term.f" does so
15:04:07 <I440r> but its kludgy heh
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15:04:19 <I440r> but not too bad methinks
15:04:22 <MrReach> I knew as much, signals are used way too much in unix environ to ignore complete
15:04:29 <I440r> yes
15:04:51 <MrReach> what would be a good way to access/set environment variiables?
15:05:09 <MrReach> every time I think about it, I get combinatorial explosion of words
15:05:49 <I440r> oh - i havent added ways to SET environment veriables yet heh
15:06:20 <I440r> you woud have to search to see if said env var already exists and if you need to INSERT or DELETE characters from its value
15:06:47 <I440r> isforth has a variable called envp which it sets on startup
15:06:51 <MrReach> nonono ... not interested in internal mechanics
15:06:52 <I440r> environment pointer
15:07:00 <MrReach> only an elegant h/l interface
15:07:12 <I440r> well i wouldnt know how to seperate the two :)
15:07:26 <MrReach> simple ...
15:07:56 <MrReach> ask "What functionality do I need, and what is the simplest set of words I could create to implement that functionality"
15:08:30 <MrReach> obviously, one needs to retrieve and set environment variables
15:08:46 <I440r> retrieval is easier than modification
15:08:49 <MrReach> does one ever need to enumerate them?
15:08:52 <I440r> i already have that part :)
15:09:01 <I440r> no idea
15:09:10 <MrReach> not worried about how hard/easy or fast/slow
15:10:35 <I440r> me either
15:10:42 <MrReach> well, one obvious solution is ...
15:10:43 <I440r> you actually have a need for this code ?
15:11:01 <MrReach> no, thinking about various OSs and portability
15:11:09 <I440r> aha :)
15:11:15 <mur> ahaa!
15:11:17 <MrReach> (thinking systems level, at this point)
15:11:21 <mur> hmmm
15:11:35 <MrReach> but not neccessarily internal operation
15:11:44 <MrReach> well, one obvious solution is ...
15:12:04 <MrReach> ENV@ ( adr1 len1 -- adr2 len2)
15:12:10 <MrReach> paired with ...
15:12:30 <MrReach> ENV! ( adr1 len1 adr2 len2 -- )
15:12:32 <mur> A ( a b -- a+1 b-1 )
15:12:51 <mur> e1337 ( name -- 1337 )
15:13:55 <MrReach> that's rudimentary enough??
15:14:03 <MrReach> mur: what's that about?
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15:14:31 <MrReach> heh, I440r, what was the last you saw?
15:14:54 <I440r_> <MrReach> ENV! ( adr1 len1 adr2 len2 -- )
15:15:04 <MrReach> that's rudimentary enough??
15:15:05 <I440r_> i have a word similar to env@
15:15:33 <I440r_> could be just addr1 addr2 to set env var a1 to value a2
15:15:37 <I440r_> both being counted strings
15:15:41 <MrReach> now, are environment variable case sensitive on linux? in windows?
15:15:51 <I440r_> they are in linux
15:15:58 <I440r_> they are usually upper case
15:16:05 <MrReach> ok
15:16:07 <I440r_> set TERM=blah
15:16:12 <I440r_> set EDITOR=joe
15:16:21 <Robert> Hey MrReach :)
15:16:23 <I440r_> or rather "export"
15:16:26 <MrReach> hiya, Robert
15:17:12 <MrReach> right, but EXPORT EDITOR=joe; export Editor=blah
15:17:18 <MrReach> are seperate entries
15:17:27 <I440r_> yes
15:17:33 <mur> export Robert
15:17:42 <Robert> No.
15:17:43 <mur> MrReach nothing
15:17:46 <MrReach> heh ...
15:17:59 <MrReach> export Robert=boot
15:18:00 <mur> set Robert=swedish
15:18:40 <MrReach> ok, I440r, you prefer pointers to counted strings?
15:19:09 <I440r_> pointers To counted strings - that way you dont have to pass as many parameters
15:19:23 <I440r_> a1 n1 a2 n2 or nust a1 a2
15:19:32 <MrReach> but ENV@ returns adr and len?
15:19:42 <I440r_> the word your calling can always do "Swap count rot count" hhe
15:19:45 <mur> NULL ( -- 0 )
15:19:48 <mur> :D
15:19:59 * mur optimises
15:20:08 <mur> : NULL ( -- 0 ) 0 ;
15:20:24 <MrReach> 0 CONSTANT NULL
15:20:53 <I440r_> i prefer not to define words like that 
15:20:55 <MrReach> I440r_: what about enumeration?
15:20:57 <I440r_> just use false :/
15:21:04 <I440r_> define enumeration
15:21:20 <MrReach> stepping through the environment variables one by one
15:21:37 <MrReach> to send them to the terminal, for example
15:21:38 <I440r_> the code to do that would be different for every os
15:21:51 <I440r_> or MIGHT be
15:21:58 <MrReach> of course, but the h/l words to do it would be identicle
15:21:59 <I440r_> in linux env vars are ascii z strings
15:22:42 <I440r_> : .env envp begin dup .asciiz scan-to-zero dup c@ 0= until ;
15:22:45 <MrReach> same in windows
15:22:47 <I440r_> or something
15:22:58 <I440r_> erm envp @ i mean heh
15:23:12 <I440r_> and u shud prolly put a cr in there somewhere :)
15:23:19 <MrReach> a table of of asciiz, followed by an empty entry
15:23:22 <I440r_> scan-to-zero 1_ even
15:23:31 <I440r_> 1+ grr i cant type!
15:23:31 <I440r_> heh
15:24:37 <I440r_> hmm i think linux also stores env vars in alpha-numerical order
15:24:38 <MrReach> brb
15:24:46 <I440r_> so to insert a new var you would have to use an insertion sort
15:24:50 <I440r_> i THINK
15:26:12 <MrReach> only if they are in some type of order
15:26:19 <MrReach> which they aren't in linux
15:26:51 <MrReach> I don't think linux does I440r
15:26:57 <MrReach> but I could be mistaken
15:27:35 <MrReach> bash sorts them before it prints
15:27:37 <I440r_> hang on :)
15:27:55 * mur hangs from tree!
15:27:56 * mur hangs from tree!
15:27:56 * mur hangs from tree!
15:28:05 <mur> quickly i'm getting tired!
15:28:15 <I440r_> ok they arent sorted
15:28:20 <mur> phew
15:28:29 <I440r_> "set [enter]" must sort them for display
15:28:31 * MrReach watches mur crash to the ground and wonders if s/he broke a leg
15:28:33 <mur> will you now bring me ladders so i can get down :)
15:29:44 <MrReach> I440r_: it doesn't the internal layout to decide what the top=level words should be
15:29:57 <MrReach> I440r_: it doesn't MATTER the internal layout to decide what the top=level words should be
15:30:06 <I440r_> k
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15:30:40 <I440r_> thin!
15:30:43 * I440r_ hides
15:30:44 <I440r_> :)
15:30:45 <thin> hola
15:30:46 <MrReach> i'm still leaning towards ENV! ( a1 c1 a2 c2 -- ) because ...
15:30:50 <MrReach> hiya, thin
15:30:51 <thin> why are you hiding i440r? :)
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15:31:02 <I440r_> i wish you would get kc5 to come back in here!
15:31:02 <thin> howdy mrreach :)
15:31:17 <MrReach> a2 c2 might be the result of a substantial algorithym
15:31:48 <MrReach> and to move a string descriptor into a counted string can be a real PITA
15:31:59 <I440r_> heh
15:32:21 <I440r_> copy it to tib+1 and then set the count
15:32:35 <thin> i440r_: i talked to him about that, but he said something about #forth being too much arguing :P
15:32:43 <I440r_> lol
15:32:47 <MrReach> thus destroying whatever happens to be in the TIB
15:33:03 <MrReach> or to PAD
15:33:04 <I440r_> mrreach i meant pad not tib heh
15:33:07 <thin> besides he's quite busy these days
15:33:16 <thin> he's no longer working where he was before
15:33:20 <MrReach> except that PAD is supposed to be guaranteed for application use
15:33:20 <thin> and is going to school
15:33:21 <thin> etc
15:33:26 <I440r_> or copy it to a dedicated buffer (whats the max size of one env var?)
15:33:40 <I440r_> oh?
15:33:49 <I440r_> so forth shouldnt use pad iteslf ?
15:33:53 <MrReach> I don't know, but the TERMINFO variable is *HUGE*
15:33:58 <I440r_> menta note.... i got some things to fix :)
15:33:59 <MrReach> that is correct
15:34:03 <I440r_> no they arent!
15:34:17 <MrReach> what aren't what?
15:34:28 <I440r_> the total lenght of ALL format strings is 4k i believe
15:34:35 <I440r_> the terminfo variables
15:34:48 <MrReach> ok, well that's well over C@
15:34:53 <I440r_> you cah have a max of 4k of format strings for all the supported escape sequences
15:35:14 <I440r_> no - i dont think ANY are more than 256 bytes
15:35:19 <I440r_> any single format string that is
15:35:33 <MrReach> no, I meant the evironment variables
15:35:45 <MrReach> I've seem some larger than 256 chars
15:35:51 <I440r_> terminfo env vars ?
15:36:01 <MrReach> yep, for one
15:36:09 <I440r_> the only one i know of is an override for where the termninfo database is located
15:36:30 <I440r_> there are 3 options. /usr/somewhere/terminfo
15:36:36 <I440r_> ~/.terminfo
15:36:45 <I440r_> or wherever $TERMINFO= points to
15:37:01 <MrReach> export TERMINFO=.........
15:37:02 <I440r_> whats the maximum length for a "path/file" ?
15:37:08 <MrReach> with the entire desriptor in it
15:37:26 <I440r_> no - thats not what that env var is for.
15:37:31 <MrReach> not sure
15:37:35 <I440r_> thas a path to where the terminfo database is located
15:37:46 <I440r_> if its not in its default location or a ~/.terminfo
15:37:51 <MrReach> anyway, it's POSSIBLE to have an ENV variable larger than 256 bytes
15:38:12 <I440r_> hmmm
15:38:17 <I440r_> im not sure it is...
15:38:21 <I440r_> tho  --- it might be :)
15:38:29 <MrReach> arg! go try
15:38:51 <MrReach> export blah=dslkasdifhewrohferihfdshvdshasdfhdsfhkfsd;hfsdakjhfdsljaslkfdsahlfsdahfsdlkjhfdslfsdjhfdsaljhbcdbequrfhpiurfdsacdskfjhfdslkjfdhldsafhdslfjsafd
15:39:11 <I440r_> k
15:39:31 <I440r_> erm doesnt the ; get fudged by the terminal ?
15:39:38 --- quit: XeF4 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:39:46 <I440r_> ...fhkfsd;hfs...
15:40:21 <mur> :)
15:40:32 <MrReach> just ascii characters, goofy
15:40:44 <I440r_> heh
15:40:56 <I440r_> anyway, you proved your point... counted strings wont work
15:41:53 <MrReach> you can still pass pointers to 16bit counted strings, but its still a PITA to build them
15:42:04 <I440r_> ya heh
15:42:21 <MrReach> 4 parameters is a bit awkward, granted, but it looks like the best way anyway
15:42:32 <MrReach> best way so far
15:42:45 <I440r_> ya
15:43:30 <MrReach> I'm still wondering about enumeration, though
15:46:42 <mur> gn
15:46:54 --- quit: mur ("MURR!")
15:47:30 <MrReach> THEN we can get into signals
15:48:02 <I440r_> ya - thats something i have to deal with for sure
15:48:14 <I440r_> i consider that a higher priority than "setting env vars"
15:52:25 <MrReach> as I understand signals to work ...
15:52:55 <MrReach> you give the OS an address to execute when the signal is received, right?
15:54:03 <I440r_> i think :)
15:55:04 <MrReach> you haven't done any research on it?
15:57:12 <I440r_> ive looked at it a little
15:57:29 <MrReach> what's the URL for the syscall descriptions?
15:58:01 <I440r_> there are links to a few of them from linuxassembly.org
15:58:14 <I440r_> a good one is H.Peter recktenwalds
15:58:19 <I440r_> the guy that did lib4th
15:58:32 <MrReach> yes, I remember
15:58:47 <I440r_> http://www.lxhp.in-berlin.de/
15:58:48 <MrReach> signals in Widnows are *WAY* different
15:58:51 <I440r_> somewhere in there :)
15:58:55 <I440r_> yea im sure they are :/
15:59:27 <thin> did he come here once?
15:59:36 <I440r_> yes :)
15:59:43 <I440r_> http://www.lxhp.in-berlin.de/lhpsyscal.html
16:01:08 <MrReach> thanks
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16:03:48 <MrReach> P  signal *signal(int signum, void (*handler)(int))           48  
16:03:48 <MrReach>   setup a signal handler
16:03:48 <MrReach>   return void previous value of signal hnd
16:03:49 <MrReach>   errors sig_err
16:03:51 <MrReach>   source kernel/signal.c 
16:05:05 <I440r_> ooh - so you can chain the handlers ?
16:05:09 <I440r_> cool!
16:05:15 <MrReach> there can be 2^32 sifferent signals?
16:05:22 <MrReach> that's not right
16:05:29 <I440r_> i see a prblem with that
16:05:40 <I440r_> process A sets a sig handler for a segv
16:05:50 <I440r_> then proces B does too.
16:06:02 <MrReach> each process has its own handlers
16:06:08 <I440r_> a segv occurs and process B decides its not for it and passes it to the handler for prcess A
16:06:22 <I440r_> but prior to this occurming A unchained itself from the sequence
16:06:23 <MrReach> but you have that problem with threading, and it gets pretty serious
16:07:31 <MrReach> it is generally recommended ...
16:07:59 <MrReach> that when a process receives a signal, it should put an entry into a que and return immediately
16:08:14 <I440r_> ?
16:08:24 <thin> could somebody msg ^G at onetom for me?
16:08:31 <MrReach> for example ... which thread should handle the event?
16:08:52 <MrReach> it is *BAD* for any variable to change unexpectedly
16:09:22 <MrReach> no matter how careful you are, you'll get race conditions and deadly embrace
16:09:28 <I440r_> ya
16:10:53 <I440r_> which is why ive not messed with signals or tasks yet :)
16:11:05 <MrReach> threads, you mean?
16:11:12 <I440r_> both
16:11:24 <I440r_> i want to support fork AND clone
16:11:38 <MrReach> that's easy
16:11:56 <MrReach> they start new processes altogether, needn't worry about shared variables
16:12:19 <I440r_> erm no - thats no good for a mud game
16:12:28 <I440r_> person a drops a sword
16:12:47 <I440r_> but person b doesnt know this because of "copy on write"
16:13:53 <MrReach> well, there's a couple ways around this
16:14:08 <MrReach> first is some shared memory among processes
16:14:19 <MrReach> another is to use threads rather than fork
16:14:36 <I440r_> right
16:14:42 <I440r_> threads == clone
16:15:20 <MrReach> I've never seen "clone" in linux docs
16:15:43 <I440r_> clone is linux threads
16:15:48 <I440r_> man 2 clone
16:15:50 <I440r_> its a syscall
16:17:01 <MrReach> ok, you might want to look at the MIT pthread implementation
16:17:31 <I440r_> lol or i might NOT - heh
16:17:34 <I440r_> yet... anyway
16:17:50 <I440r_> CLONE is a linux-ism
16:17:50 <MrReach> might not what?
16:18:02 <MrReach> yes, it is, pthreads is fairly portable
16:18:03 <I440r_> theres no clone syscall in fbsd for instance
16:18:26 <I440r_> i could always add user variables and write a tasker myself
16:18:31 <I440r_> and forget clone and fork :/
16:18:34 <MrReach> yes and no
16:18:54 <MrReach> if your main thread freezes for some reason, the whole MUD is screwed
16:18:56 <I440r_> or write a forth tasker arround clone 
16:19:01 <I440r_> hehe
16:19:04 <I440r_> it is anyway :)
16:19:21 <MrReach> no, just because a user bifs it should mean everyone bombs
16:19:50 <MrReach> biff and shouldn't
16:20:20 <I440r_> heh
16:20:32 <thin> is it possible to do a multiuser mud without having to code multitasking into isforth ??
16:20:51 <MrReach> of course, but not sure how robust it would be
16:21:14 <thin> how would it be done
16:21:28 <thin> use linux's services?
16:22:16 <MrReach> you'd have a main loop that collects characters from various sockets ...
16:22:26 <MrReach> adds them to a TIB for each user
16:22:52 <I440r_> right
16:22:52 <MrReach> when the CR is received, parse dispatch to the proper command handler
16:23:04 <MrReach> parse and dispatch
16:23:18 <I440r_> tib, key, key?, emit all need to be different for each user
16:23:20 <thin> okay
16:23:48 <I440r_> also - each user (assuming they can compile) needs their own DP and HP maybe
16:24:08 <I440r_> i also want to be able to SEAL each mud user into their own vocabulary
16:24:21 <MrReach> each user would have his own block of memory for tib, preferences, objects, etc ... the dispatch simply gets a pointer
16:24:38 <I440r_> that way admins can have a game vocab and an immortal vocab and developers can have ALL vocs available to them
16:24:39 <MrReach> HP???
16:24:47 <thin> nothing wrong with a TIB for every user.  i probably would've done it that way if i had coded the forthmud at all heh
16:24:49 <I440r_> head space pointer
16:24:51 <thin> HP = here pointer
16:24:55 <I440r_> headers are seperate
16:25:02 <I440r_> no dp hs here
16:25:05 <I440r_> dp is here
16:25:09 <I440r_> hp is hhere
16:25:11 <I440r_> headers
16:25:39 <thin> ok
16:26:05 <MrReach> well, using threads is both simpler and more complicated
16:26:33 <MrReach> with a threaded model, you can pretend there only one user ... makes everything *MUCH* easier
16:26:59 <MrReach> but you have to be very careful with resource locking as they interact with their environment
16:27:06 <thin> hm
16:28:02 <I440r_> yea. 2 resources. 2 processes each want both. one grabs the first resource, the other grabs the second and they then BOTH sit and wait for the other recource to become free
16:28:03 <I440r_> heh
16:28:07 <I440r_> gotta love it :)
16:28:33 <thin> um
16:28:56 <MrReach> yes, there's ways around that
16:29:33 <thin> i440r: know of any forth commands that would do that?
16:29:40 <thin> s/commands/words
16:29:56 <I440r_> not yet :)
16:29:58 <MrReach> I do ... @ and !
16:30:23 <MrReach> guy uses an energy point for example ...
16:30:24 <thin> hm, when?
16:30:30 <thin> ok
16:30:40 <MrReach> ENERGY @ 1- ENERGY !
16:31:03 <thin> and then that gets interrupted in the middle.. hmmm
16:31:07 <MrReach> at the same time, some one casts an energy boost on him
16:31:20 <MrReach> ENERGY @ 35 + ENERGY !
16:32:29 <MrReach> the the decrementer featch the value, subtracts 1, is interupted by the spell which adds 35 appropriately, then stores the incorrect value when it resumes
16:32:42 <thin> so one way around is to make it more discrete and prevent the discrete units of commands from getting interrupted ?
16:32:44 <MrReach> race condition
16:32:59 <MrReach> that's correct ... called resource locking
16:33:26 <thin> and we can use a stack! ;)
16:33:34 <MrReach> "I'm the only one allowed to mess with this user's energy variable until I say otherwise"
16:33:46 <thin> for keeping track of which user's discrete set of commands gets executed..
16:34:08 <MrReach> well, another way to do that ...
16:34:22 <thin> hmm prolly too complicated actually the stack way..
16:34:25 <MrReach> is to provide a que of actions for the per-user thread to execute
16:34:47 <MrReach> one entry would be a decrement energy
16:34:58 <MrReach> another entry would be the results of the spell
16:35:13 <thin> yeah..
16:35:33 <MrReach> because the thread only processes one que entry at a time, there's no risk of them interrupting each other
16:35:47 <thin> "kill" would have to break down into smaller uninteruptable actions (since it runs for more than a few seconds)
16:36:06 <MrReach> *THEN* you only need to do the resource locking when adding/subtracting stuff from the que ... and that can be shared code among all users
16:36:07 <I440r_> have a single task taht goes thru and executes the commands from each users tib one at a time
16:36:14 <I440r_> i think that would introduce latency
16:36:25 <I440r_> im sure there would be a bette way to do it
16:36:30 <thin> more latency than multithreading?
16:36:46 <thin> what is the difference between multithreading and multitasking anyways?  or is it arbitrary for our conversations here
16:36:55 <thin> nevermind
16:36:57 <MrReach> in a sigle-thread environment, it's not an issue
16:36:57 <thin> i know the difference
16:37:05 <I440r_> no. you would still have the same delay but the delay in one method would be all at the same time and in the other it would be spread out :)
16:37:27 <MrReach> tasking is a misnomer, really
16:37:31 <I440r_> ya
16:37:42 <thin> i440r: so what's your magical less-latency method?
16:37:54 <MrReach> the big difference is between a multi-thread application and a multi-process application
16:37:56 <I440r_> it wouldnt be less
16:38:01 <I440r_> it would be less noticable
16:38:19 <thin> multi-process application has separate memory space for EACH process
16:38:26 <thin> multi-threading is same memory space for each thread
16:38:36 <thin> that's my assumption..
16:38:39 <MrReach> also, with a single thread, if it freezes, the whole MUD goes down, not just that user
16:38:51 <MrReach> thin, that's correct
16:39:09 <thin> i440r: less noticeable ?
16:39:18 <thin> oh, so you are talking about spikes in latency
16:39:27 <MrReach> TASK is really a forth concept, similar to threading, but without the protection of execution times
16:39:28 <I440r_> thin are you familiar with the "eating philosophers problem" ?
16:39:37 <thin> i440r: nope
16:39:54 <I440r_> you have a bunch of philosophers sitting a table
16:40:01 <MrReach> philosophers are too fatty nowadays
16:40:03 <I440r_> each has a plate of sphagettin in front of him
16:40:15 <I440r_> the table is circuler
16:40:20 <I440r_> between each plate is a fork
16:40:31 <I440r_> in order to eat a philosopher has to be able to use BOTH forks
16:40:53 <I440r_> a philosopher wants to spend 50% of his time thinking and 50% of his time eating
16:41:19 <thin> hungry chip
16:41:39 <I440r_> think of the philosophers as tasks and the forks as resources
16:41:48 <I440r_> eating is the same as "running the task:
16:42:04 <I440r_> thinking is the same as "sleeping the task"
16:42:40 <thin> k..
16:42:53 <I440r_> solving this however does not mean you can write a multi tasker,
16:43:10 <I440r_> computer tasks have a hell of alot more resources to juggle :)
16:43:11 <MrReach> no, the multitasker is a tool to solve that type of problem
16:43:19 <I440r_> yes
16:43:38 <MrReach> the difference between a task and a thread appears to be ...
16:43:52 <MrReach> that a thread is guaranteed execution time
16:44:11 <thin> eh?
16:44:15 <MrReach> even if it immediately passes back to the OS because it's waiting on something
16:44:31 <MrReach> threads are preemptive
16:44:36 <MrReach> tasks are cooperative
16:44:50 <I440r_> both are pre-emptive
16:44:57 <I440r_> linux HAS to be able to preempt you
16:45:11 <I440r_> it absolutely MUST run certain things at regular intervals or its going to die
16:45:17 <MrReach> a task must call PAUSE (or equivelent) in order for other tasks to run
16:45:22 <I440r_> which is why linux is traditionally no good for real time stuff
16:45:42 <MrReach> right, but I'm talking about preemption within an application itself
16:45:50 <I440r_> not so or someone could write a task that never did and fubar your whole system
16:46:00 <MrReach> that's right
16:46:23 <thin> hm? how does linux handle the task that doesn't call PAUSE?
16:46:28 <MrReach> I was trying to show the difference between a forth task and an OS thread
16:46:45 <MrReach> PAUSE is not used in linux ... per se
16:47:02 <I440r_> oh ok heh
16:47:09 <MrReach> Linux says, "You're done for now, like it or not, you'll get to run later"
16:47:18 <I440r_> can be pre-emptive arround "next"
16:47:27 <thin> ok
16:47:29 <I440r_> or can use "pause" (a patchable noop)
16:48:19 <MrReach> in linux or windows, I usually set PAUSE to use the system call that relenguishes the rest of the timeslice, whatever that happens to be
16:49:07 <MrReach> which means that one of the other threads in my app might get to run next, or another app altogether
16:50:19 <MrReach> it's MUCH harder to program for premptive threads than for cooparitive blocks
16:50:40 <MrReach> with cooperative, you know nothing going to muck with your variables unexpectedly
16:51:07 <I440r_> one task starts : blah ..... and gets pre-empted
16:51:15 <I440r_> the second one starts : foo ....
16:51:16 <I440r_> heh
16:51:22 <MrReach> but with cooperative, if a task freezes for some reason, nobody ever gets to run again
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16:54:39 <MrReach> and OS signals complicate matters even more
16:55:08 <MrReach> hihi, XeF4
16:56:06 <thin> well i gotta go
16:56:16 <MrReach> be well, thin
16:56:50 <MrReach> wifey will be home soon, and then I'll have to go as well
16:56:52 <thin> you too
16:56:57 <thin> bye all
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16:58:10 <MrReach> I440r_: for a MUD, I'd recommend one thread per socket connection, and all communication between threads be done by ques or pipes
16:58:20 <I440r_> thats what im planning
16:58:30 <I440r_> but i think i need to implement some form of "user variables" too
16:58:38 <I440r_> and one of these needs to be "context"
16:58:53 <MrReach> have the main thread do no more than accept sockets, start threads, and watchdog for dead threads
16:58:55 <I440r_> i want to be able to seal each type of user into specific vocabularies
16:59:18 <I440r_> need to implement timers too
16:59:22 <I440r_> not looked into that either
16:59:27 <I440r_> related to signals i thinl
16:59:28 <I440r_> think
16:59:33 <MrReach> correct, the whole point of threading is so that users can have their own contexts
17:00:02 <I440r_> i mean "context" in a forth vocabulary sense heh
17:00:22 <MrReach> yes, I meant it in a bit broader sense
17:00:36 <I440r_> you mean it in a task sense
17:00:42 <MrReach> own personal vocab, own user variables, etc
17:00:47 <I440r_> yes
17:01:42 <MrReach> be SURE to wrap ALLOCATE RESIZE and FREE so that a users memory gets returned when he quits or dies
17:01:58 <I440r_> i didnt code "resize" yet
17:02:10 <I440r_> but i got allocate and free written.
17:02:18 <I440r_> didnt i show you my allocator ?
17:02:25 <MrReach> yep
17:02:27 <I440r_> k
17:02:28 <I440r_> heh
17:02:30 <I440r_> thunked i had
17:02:49 <MrReach> we argued about whether we should just let the OS handle it
17:03:27 <I440r_> definatly not. not in lionux
17:03:28 <I440r_> linux
17:03:35 <MrReach> why not?
17:03:36 <I440r_> 4k granularity is not acceptable
17:03:47 <MrReach> heh
17:03:51 <I440r_> :/
17:04:31 <I440r_> i dont think we argued about it tho
17:05:46 <MrReach> I take it then that a thread allocates a sizable block of mem (9-16k or so) when it starts?
17:06:21 <I440r_> it doesnt do anything yet - im not sure how im going to do it
17:08:06 <MrReach> you might have the main thread handle it, and add a "thread id" field to each allocation segment
17:08:40 <MrReach> so that when a thread dies the allocator can return all its memory blocks to the heap
17:09:19 <MrReach> that way, with one huge block, you can tune to the physical memory in the computer
17:09:45 <MrReach> maybe 32MB in a 64MB machine
17:10:00 <I440r_> well - your thinking along the lines of a general purpose tasker in forth - where each task can allocate or deallocate as it sees fit
17:10:26 <I440r_> hmm - that raises problems too
17:11:00 <MrReach> yes, when a user picks up an object, it's gonna need a tructure to describe it, and be linked in a chain of similar structures
17:11:19 <I440r_> right. but the structure wont be allocated in that users space
17:11:44 <MrReach> I should say "creates an object" ... picking up an object simply removies it from one list and puts it in another list
17:11:52 <I440r_> that user will have a structure. and one element of HIS strucuture would be a pointer to a linked list of items he has
17:12:03 <I440r_> but those items will be allocated in GAME space
17:12:21 <I440r_> the object would be linked to the map location
17:12:21 * MrReach nods contemplatively
17:12:26 <I440r_> user enters, gets it
17:12:43 <I440r_> the data in the object structure doesnt get moved to a new object structure
17:12:48 <MrReach> right, unlinked from room, linked to user
17:12:49 <I440r_> you just link said object to the user
17:12:53 <I440r_> yes
17:13:03 <I440r_> so the object wont be allocated in that users memory space
17:13:13 <MrReach> and object creation is probably a rare thing
17:13:23 <I440r_> maybe
17:13:24 <MrReach> relatively rare
17:13:37 <I440r_> users could create an object by casting a spell
17:13:58 <MrReach> wifey's home bbiab
17:14:13 <I440r_> k
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17:44:07 <I440r_> hi segher
17:47:26 <segher> hi there
17:47:37 <segher> been a while since i dropped in here
17:49:02 <I440r_> ya :)
17:50:20 <segher> hey, i wonder what this VOCABULARY stuff is all about
17:50:33 <segher> i know what word-lists are, but what is a vocabulary?
17:50:54 <I440r_> a "word list" is a ansified GAY name for a vocabulary
17:51:53 <segher> ah, so it's just the same?
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17:52:34 <I440r_> its a vocabulary. forget ans, ans is dumb. its NOT forth :\
17:54:40 <segher> well, i _have_ to use ANS, as i'm implementing Open Firmware.
17:54:59 <segher> i don't _have_ to use word-list, though :)
17:55:10 <segher> just the core stuff
17:55:16 <I440r_> heh
17:55:37 <segher> but i can just as well implement most of ans, as compatibility only if that's better
17:55:53 <segher> what forth introduced the concept of vocabularies?
17:56:15 <I440r_> i hate words like "postpone" and "evaluate"
17:56:18 <I440r_> hmmm im not sure
17:56:28 <I440r_> they been arround since the 79 std for sure...
17:56:48 <segher> what's wrong with EVALUATE ?
17:57:13 <segher> ah!  where can i get a copy of the 79, 83, fig, whatever standards?
17:57:49 <I440r_> : foo s" blay blah" evaluate ; immediate
17:57:53 <I440r_> that should be....
17:57:58 <I440r_> : foo blah blah ;
17:58:18 <I440r_> it defers till execution time that which should have been done at COMPILE time
17:58:44 <segher> sure
17:58:51 <segher> but EVAL is good for _some_ things
17:59:25 <segher> esp. if combined with CATCH
18:00:19 <I440r_> no
18:00:39 <I440r_> you show me ANY use of the word evaluate and ill show you a better one that does NOT use it
18:00:43 <I440r_> guaranteed
18:00:51 <segher> sure
18:00:56 <I440r_> try me
18:01:08 <segher> say i have a driver that needs another driver, say, it needs a serial port driver
18:01:23 <segher> but it doesn't know or care _which_ serial driver
18:01:49 <I440r_> heh
18:02:01 <segher> it can do just   " write-serial" catch    and be happy
18:02:24 <I440r_> well - catch and throw are deficient
18:02:33 <I440r_> very poor if you ask me
18:02:51 <segher> i like-em.  i need-em a lot.
18:03:13 <I440r_> hang on
18:03:19 <segher> OF is a lot like an OS -- and you really want exception handling there.
18:05:53 <I440r_> ya but catch/throw sux heh
18:11:40 <MrReach> I'm back ... miss me terribly???
18:11:46 <MrReach> catch/throw rocks
18:13:13 <I440r_> no :/ === erm i mean catch/throw doesnt rock - sure i missed you 
18:13:14 <I440r_> hyeh
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18:13:32 <segher> what about those older standards?  are they available somewhere?
18:14:11 <MrReach> guess what? I'm thinking about muds
18:14:11 <I440r_> hang on fone...
18:14:27 <MrReach> damn you for throwing me on a wild-ass tangent
18:14:52 <I440r_> cool :)
18:14:58 <MrReach> seg: there is a minor difference between a vocabulary and a word-list
18:15:12 <I440r_> back
18:15:19 <I440r_> word lists can be anywhere
18:15:22 <MrReach> a word list is identified by a "wid"
18:15:35 <MrReach> a stack-wide "worlist identifier"
18:15:39 <segher> yes
18:15:41 <MrReach> a stack-wide "wordlist identifier"
18:15:49 <I440r_> and this is usefull why ?
18:15:51 <segher> exactly
18:16:00 <I440r_> seems like a new "feature-bloat" to me...
18:16:06 <I440r_> featureitis
18:16:08 <segher> so what do vocabularies use instead?
18:16:28 <MrReach> wordlists were intended to be a tool with with to build vocabulary tools with, because there's so many types of vocabulary implementations
18:16:43 <I440r_> a vocabulary is a word that an array of threads that when executes adds its own address to context
18:16:47 <I440r_> what else do you need
18:16:47 <MrReach> vocabs use the name of the vocab to identify it
18:17:05 <I440r_> so instead of standardizing on an existing methid they invented a new one
18:17:16 <segher> right
18:17:22 <I440r_> again. the ans team show their cowardly colours by refusing to take a stance one way or the other :/
18:17:35 <I440r_> lol
18:17:37 <MrReach> : VOCABULARY ( <name> -- ) create wordlist , does> @ to-current ;
18:17:38 <segher> pfrt
18:17:50 <segher> i'm not interested in politics wrt Forth :)
18:18:17 <MrReach> anyways, I was thinking about MUDs
18:18:26 <I440r_> well im not being political, i just see NO reason for feature bloat just so as to not break anyone
18:18:36 <I440r_> ya... muds :)
18:18:47 <segher> is the gforth VOCABULARY stuff any good?  or what other is better?  i'm looking for implementation advice/ideas here :)
18:18:49 <MrReach> what type of client did you expect to use, I4?
18:18:52 <I440r_> im thinking of using block files for all the map data... isforths blocks can be any size
18:19:15 <I440r_> mrreach im not sure... most muds these days use compressiojn
18:19:24 <MrReach> seg, gforth is a bit complex, try eforth
18:19:29 <MrReach> tiny and simple
18:19:58 <segher> sounds good
18:20:05 <I440r_> that is supported by most clients
18:20:06 <segher> where do i find eforth?
18:20:07 <MrReach> I'm thinking of an REALLY sophisticated MUD design
18:20:11 <I440r_> isforths vocab stuff is non std
18:20:17 <I440r_> i dont use "also" <- DUMB
18:20:28 <MrReach> try taygeta.com
18:20:35 <I440r_> so am i
18:20:39 <MrReach> it is the authoritative repository for forth stuff
18:20:45 <I440r_> 2000+ users at the same time
18:21:06 <MrReach> I440r_: I was thinking VR with Everquest type quality
18:21:28 <I440r_> erm - no - i do not want a graphical mud
18:21:34 <MrReach> 3d rendering, surround sound, voice, the whole 9 yards
18:21:34 <I440r_> other than pure ascii text
18:21:49 <I440r_> and those games are about as playable as doom
18:21:56 <MrReach> ok, doom, then
18:22:12 <MrReach> excellent graphics and sound, lotsa fun
18:22:25 <I440r_> i want a game where the players have to use their immaginations. like the difference between a book and the movie
18:22:30 <I440r_> movies lose alot in the translation
18:22:34 <MrReach> (I've never played any of these games, incidently)
18:23:11 <I440r_> i played one for a while but they started messing with the game so that the only people who could get anywhere with it were the ones who had been there for 3 or 4 years
18:23:18 <MrReach> well, the neat part about it is that users can showcase their own creativity with the objects they create
18:23:24 <I440r_> muds are an english invention
18:23:38 <I440r_> i think it was the university of coventry or something
18:23:51 <I440r_> kinda like multi player zork games
18:24:12 <I440r_> the original had a famous monster in it that NOBODY could kill
18:24:15 <I440r_> it was a wolf
18:24:15 <segher> the only real mud is dikumud :)
18:24:22 <I440r_> everyone was terrified of the wolf
18:24:33 <I440r_> if it saw you it would immediatly attack and kill you
18:24:40 <I440r_> and when you die you lose half your experience
18:24:55 <I440r_> if you kill another player you get + half his experience to your own
18:24:56 * MrReach sighs, "I only have about half an hour here."
18:25:15 <I440r_> some girl solved the wolf problem...
18:25:18 <I440r_> "walk wolf"
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18:25:27 <I440r_> as if it was a doggie and it likes you :)
18:25:49 <segher> hehe
18:25:54 <I440r_> anyway, i have littel interest at the moment for a full blown 3d graphical mud
18:26:02 <MrReach> users might showcase their own creativity with the objects they create
18:26:19 <MrReach> but THATs a challenge
18:26:45 <MrReach> not the piddly-ass text stuff that's already been done, at best you could create a varient
18:26:49 <I440r_> im thinking of a text based mud where users are sealed in a game vocab
18:26:59 <I440r_> immortals (like opers) are sealed into an immortal vocab
18:27:04 <I440r_> and developers arent sealed at all
18:27:16 <I440r_> : help words ;
18:27:41 <segher> ALIAS WORDS HELP
18:27:44 <I440r_> erm well - it would list all words if not given something to parse
18:27:51 <MrReach> but THATs a challenge
18:27:51 <MrReach> not the piddly-ass text stuff that's already been done, at best you could create a varient
18:27:59 <I440r_> erm ' foo alias blah not alias blah foo :/
18:28:00 <I440r_> heh
18:28:18 <I440r_> tried and true.
18:28:22 <I440r_> NOT old hat
18:28:47 <MrReach> why not *REALLY* showcase forth?
18:29:24 <Klaw> sophists and their sophisticated designs
18:29:29 <Klaw> that's what i have to say about all of that.
18:29:44 <I440r_> i think this would
18:29:53 <MrReach> who says the sofware has to be sophisticated?
18:30:07 <MrReach> it just has to LOOK sophisticated
18:31:34 <I440r_> heh
18:31:52 <I440r_> how would you transmit all those graphical representations 
18:32:08 <MrReach> personally, I would objectify them
18:32:12 <I440r_> you would have to have a dedicated client for the mud game and all the gfx would be on the client, not the server
18:32:28 <I440r_> all you would need to do is transmit the "scene"
18:32:35 <MrReach> "this is a generic door ... these are the things you can do it ... how it behaves"
18:32:36 <I440r_> and the client would then draw all the gfx
18:32:43 <MrReach> right
18:33:02 <MrReach> I would put even more responsibility on the client
18:33:19 <MrReach> just let the serv hold what objects are where
18:33:33 <I440r_> right
18:33:44 <MrReach> let it be the clients job to render them
18:33:51 <I440r_> that would work but then you have th problem of coding both the client and the server
18:33:59 <I440r_> and my forth only works in linux on an x86
18:34:07 <I440r_> only people running x86 linux's can play
18:34:09 <MrReach> only got 640x480 one meg card? it'll run fine, but looks primitive
18:34:10 <I440r_> i gotta go
18:34:26 <I440r_> need to log out - chat more tomorrow
18:34:29 <MrReach> ok, I440r_
18:34:31 <MrReach> be well
18:34:40 <MrReach> I have to go in 25 mins, anyway
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20:31:34 <KRISHNA> hi all !
20:36:46 <gilbertdeb> .
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22:33:09 <fridge> has anyone got a copy of xcolorforth?
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